WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp - Who Are The Visitors & Why Are They Here - Guest : Whitley Strieber

Episode Date: June 27, 2023

Author Whitley Strieber has endured a lifetime of bizarre encounters with a non-human intelligence. In his 1987 blockbuster "Communion", Strieber described a series of terrifying intrusions by seemingly alien creatures he called The Visitors. The book sold millions of copies, was made into a major motion picture, and generated hundreds of thousands of letters from people around the world who reported similar experiences. Strieber's own encounters with the Visitors have not only continued over the ensuing decades but have evolved into an even more complex mystery, one that seems to involve more than one non-human species as well as human souls and the afterlife. In this candid conversation with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, Strieber revisits his most unusual encounters, shares his private thoughts about the reasons for the UFO coverup, discusses current developments involving crash retrievals and whistleblowers, and addresses the central question - are we ready for the truth? GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at [e-mail] For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at https://WeaponizedPodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You talking to me? Kayak, got that right. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV! Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows, and they were all free. The truth is ours.

It's just so beautiful. On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe Arrow, the 100 NX files, may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. I could rolling that around in my head and rolling it around in my head. It took me. It took me.

But why would these beings be doing this to human beings if it's true? Let me give you some possibilities. A lot of physicists now believe that there is no objective reality. You can never see anything except directly. You can only interpret your own perceptions. Touch, taste, feel, sight, smell. Those are all inside us. The suggestion is that they have been here for a long time and have affected our world.

You know the truth is, we don't know a darn thing about what this actually is. Secrets, cover-ups, and strange phenomena. UFOs and ideas that challenge reality itself. All these mysteries, all this time. Are we ever going to get to the bottom of these? My name is George Knapp. I dig into news stories that others can't or won't. I'm Jeremy Corbell, and for some reason, people tell me things they probably shouldn't. And this is weaponized. This is weaponized. It's been 36 years since the book

Communion exploded into the public consciousness. It spent six months atop the bestseller list. It's sold millions of copies, still sells many copies. It's inspired so many other similar books by other artists and experiencers. It became a hit movie. And the guy who wrote it is our guest today, Whitley Striever. Whitley, great to see you. That's a pleasure to be here, George. Good to see you, Whitley. Yeah. See you too. We want to talk about your latest book, them, but there's a journey because it's sort of, the new book is kind of a full circle for you in returning to the communications you had from the public after communion came out. I mean, this thing landed like an atomic bomb. Can you share with us what it was like to be writing that wave back in 1987?

Well, first, I had no idea there would be a wave. We, Bud Hopkins and I figured there were about maybe 50 or 100 people who had had these experiences. We did not know the truth, that it was, it was a massive undercurrent in the society. And I came to it as a novelist, a fiction writer. And suddenly here I am going out and saying something very like one of my horror novels actually happened to me. And worse for me personally, back in Texas where I came from, I have a reputation for being skilled at fooling people and playing pranks. So, you know, I mean, it's just the last person you would think could do this or should

be called on to do this in a way. But at the same time, as we'll see over the course of the discussion, there's been an enormous effort on the part of this presence. And that's mostly what I'm going to call it. Sometimes the visitors, not necessarily aliens, because I just don't, I think we know enough about it to make it so definite. So in any case, it makes an effort to enable people to make their own decisions. If they had, for example, had Carl Sagan instead of me or another prominent scientist or a religious leader or something you could not, someone you could not doubt, then people would be forced to believe it. But with me, they could really take their choice. And I mean, my friends in Texas were just, there wasn't one of them.

They said, you know, Whitley, this is just the worst. This is your worst, the most outrageous joke you've ever played. And I'm saying it's not a joke. And it happened. And this is still the bottom line. Something happened to me. It turns out millions of other people. The image on the cover connected to people all over the planet in a ways that surprised you and everyone else.

It spoke to them because there was a hint of recognition. for a lot of people who had not confronted this before. It was a trigger. That image is the initiating moment of contact between us and whatever this other presence is. That was what started. And I had not the faintest idea on anything like that would happen.

Gosh, I wish I could say, well, you know, the visitors and I were blah, blah, and I knew just what would, no, not even close. I was just sitting there with the artist, Ted Jacobs trying to get an image that reflected the way it felt to look into those eyes. And it worked. And then it was just thousands and thousands. If you go down to Rice University now and you look through those letters, there's thousands of them there in the archives of the impossible,

you see letter after letter saying that the face made me realize that what had happened to me was real. And it was amazing, amazing that trigger. The face hangs on my wall in my office. I look at it every day and I think to myself, who are you? The original? Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting. So the cards were stacked against you in your profession.

Oh, absolutely. And so you're kind of like a perfect message, imperfect messenger is kind of the thing. Exactly. And I will attest to the idea that, seeing that image is now something that people, it's so recognizable, this idea of like the alien gray or whatever you'd call it, that image of that being on your book. I mean, I remember seeing it as a younger person. And now, so many people without even having seen or read your book have had these encounters. And back then, when you say Rice University, you're talking about how many letters did people

write you back then that you have now donated to Rice University? Well, this is all Ann, my wife, Ann's doing about two weeks after communion came out. Remember, this is before there were, there was no email at all. It was all physical. The postman rang the doorbell and we opened the door and the guy has this big bag, canvas bag, full of letters. And he says, we got a lot of these. mail for you today and we can't I can't leave the bag but I'm going to leave I have to leave the letters so he pours him out on the room floor and we think what the hell is this is all about that the book communion then the publisher had called and said it's going to be a bestseller it's really doing well well that was the start it's it became every day they would come sometimes two or three postman

the letters pile was you know three or four feet high and I said and And what are we going to do? We can't leave this as a fire hazard, among other things. I mean, we can't have our entire living room filled with letters. I don't know what to do. We've got to figure out some way to throw them out, but it's the same time we've got to preserve these people's confidentiality. She says, throw them out.

I'm not going to throw them out. I'm going to read them. I said, read them. Look at that pile. And it gets bigger every day. She said, well, you might not be able to read them, but I can. And I'm going to. And she got a letter opener.

And she started flipping them open. two days later, three days later, she says, you know, I'm going to need a secretary. And I said, okay, well, we'll call manpower. And she says, no, no, I'll find the secretary in the letters. And I thought, what an unexpected and interesting approach. And not 10 minutes later, she comes in and she says, look at this letter. And I look at the letter, and it's this letter from this lady. It says she's a singer and an actress and stuff.

And I said, well, it says here she's a singer and she's an actress. She said, Anne says, but she lives down the street. And that's not, you ever heard of her? I said, no. She said, well, if she's a wannabe singer and actress then, isn't she? So therefore, that's not how she makes her living. Look at that handwriting. That's a professional's hand.

I'm calling her because I think she's a secretary. She was a secretary. She remained Anne's secretary for the next 15 years, Lori Burns. And together, they created this catalog, and cataloged it. She read every letter. She put the letters with a complex narrative in one stack.

The letters just that were saying, this was a wonderful, thank you for writing her, you're an idiot, or all those in another stack. And the stack that she saved is about 35,000 letters. And I think maybe all of them, and certainly most of them are at Rice. Wow. These events that happened to you that are detailed in communion,

and they started this at the cabin that you had in upstate New York. You did not know at the time that those things were unfolding that you had probably had a lifetime of experiences. I mean, maybe it was communicating with Bud Hopkins about what it means and how to fit it into a category that you developed understanding of. Can you explain who's Bud Hopkins for people that don't know about this? A lot of people watching this kind of thing,

but who's Bud Hopkins? What's an important? What was a very talented artist? This topic was sort of thrust. upon him. Yeah, he wrote a book. Yeah, he had an experience. It was called Missing Time. He wrote a book called Missing Time that established a lot of what we now understanding about the experience with visitors. Whitley's experiences expanded it exponentially. Yeah, in fact, he got pissed off at me because some, he felt like my book had overshadowed his and it shouldn't have been published at the same

time. I had, and he thought I had engineered that. In fact, I hadn't. I didn't. I didn't, I didn't, I I had no control over it whatsoever. And unfortunately, something was going on with a publisher. They were getting pushback from somewhere. And they decided to put the book out just to send books to the bookstores without any buildup or explanation. And so all these books arrived all over the country unexpectedly in the bookstores. But Bud thought I had done it. And I had done it to preempt his book intruders.

And he was furious and it ruined our relationship. And it was tragic because he was such a wonderful man and such a good man and so effective at doing something that nobody else ever did before, or ever thought was possible. But his dignity and his decency and his kindness and his dedication helped me and many other people. I think I might have committed suicide if it hadn't. for both. I think he saved my life. If you're having these experiences and then you interact with him and he sort of gives you some framework for understanding it.

Yeah. Well, when I first met him, I thought he was a complete idiot because, I mean, I, you know, I was not in this space at all. I was, I had been interested in flying saucers when I was a little boy, because it was the 50s and they were all over the news all the time and any little boy is going to be interested. Plus, one of our neighbors was witness to a big incident called the Levelin Texas UFO incident. And he was one of the people whose car was stopped on the roadside by the thing and saw it and everything.

So it was a big, you know, we were interested all right. I did not, I apparently had a lot of, I wrote a whole book about possible interactions and encounters as a child told us secret school. But by the time my 40s rolled around, I had completely forgotten any trace of that. I hadn't thought about flying saucers since I was about 15. And before that, maybe. And all of a sudden, I'm thinking about flying sauces again because I was apparently ended up in one. But at first, no. I mean, that idea didn't actually call. cross my mind until I described my memories to my doctor. And he said, Whitley, it sounds like you're telling me you were taking aboard a flying saucer by little men. And I thought,

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And this big thing, I mean, I felt like it was so real that if it happened again, what if it happens again? I'm not getting out of that. That's an absolutely impenetrable psychosis is what I feared. And I started, I got, what I didn't know was I was experiencing a lot of traumatic stress. And I tried to get Anne to divorce me. We fought. I tried to push her away. I didn't want to tell her that I thought I had gone insane.

It was just a disastrous time. But my whole life imploded in the months after December of 1985 in January and into February. And then I happened to read a book called Science and the UFOs that had been given to me by my brother for Christmas, by Jenny Randalls. And, you know, my brother was into that sort of thing. And I always thought it was absolutely ridiculous. And we always, we don't try, but we do try to give each other good presence. We always give each other horrible presents. I once gave me, he's fascinated by guerrillas.

I once gave him a gorilla suit, not knowing it was made of cat hair. And all the cat hair got sucked up into his car recognition while he tried to go over to a friend's house wearing it. That's the sort of thing we do. So I had this book, Science and the UFOs him. Richard, I open it. I see this. You know, another bad gift. But I read it because I did, I mean, the doctor had said UFOs.

And in the back of the book, Bud is mentioned. So I called him, went to see him. And finally I ended up with a realization that there was no other explanation that fit. All the medical explanations, everything had not panned out. The only explanation that I had panned out was that I was hardly sit down because I'd been raped and the doctor had diagnosed that and I had this hole in the side of my head that was beginning to heal by then but it had been a very nasty little wound and I thought to myself physical injuries memory is real I'm going to go see this guy and I said to a dear friend of

mine Timothy Greenfield Saunders takes all the pictures of a wonderful brilliant photographer and he takes all my pictures, thank God. Anyway, Timothy, I said, told whole story to Timothy. And he says, I said, I don't know how to tell Ann. And I said, well, just tell her. She'll roll with it. Anne knows you. She's used to you. She'll roll with it. So I sit down with her and she's starting to tear up because she thinks, as she said later, I thought we were going to say we need to separate. And instead, I tell her this story about being taken a more flying saucer by little men. And she looks at me. And she says, oh, thank God.

I thought you were going crazy. She also, she remembered it differently. She said, she remembers this saying, oh, thank God. Now I don't have to get a divorce. But I was afraid that, you know, I'd been one kind of pushing to take splits apart. Because the reason was if she had me as a husband and I was in a mental institution, She couldn't remarry. She couldn't get insurance.

And she had no means of support. And a little boy to raise. That was why I was trying to get rid of her. Did I read that you were drinking in those days, sort of as a coping mechanism? Yeah. I'd be able to go to sleep. I drank.

I started not to the point of getting drunk. I had been there and done that in college. I will admit, frankly, that my college years were wonderful fun, and I cannot ever say to any kid who raises hell in college that, oh my, you shouldn't do that because I did it all. Where did you go to college? Well, I started out at St. John's College in Maryland, which was a very serious great books college. And it was a wonderful place. However, I wanted not just a good school, but I wanted fun.

And I thought, well, there's a party school, 70 miles from my home. University of Texas, all my friends are there. They're having a great time and getting good educations as well. I'm going there and I moved. And so I went to UT and I had a great time. I got a good education and I had a hell of a lot of fun. Anyway, after the events, I began to drink. I began to like to medicate myself with alcohol because I was so, to be honest with you,

I was so goddamn scared. I was scared. You can't, you can't know until you've been with in situation like that, what it is to be really scared. Because these entities were alive, moving around, fast, some of them, very fast. and you moved like this instant. They raped me. They gave me an erection by using a device that was used actually in animal husbandry.

It still is used in animal husbandry. But in those days, before Viagra or anything, it was used for men who were having trouble getting it up. And it creates an electrical current that stimulates the nerve that causes an erection. And you can hear me on the hypnosis tape saying, yeah, I have an erection. Where did that come from? Because let's face it, there wasn't anybody in that room who would have inspired the correction in me or anyone. I'm sorry, that's a great one.

It's the truth. I mean, it was not an erection-oriented situation in any way at all. And there it was. And then they took semen out of me. They took my semen. And I could rolling that around in my head and rolling it around in my head. It took me. They took me.

What they do with me? You know, it's one thing to read that book, and it's scary as hell. It's another thing to think that it really was happening to you. These things are around. They're playing mind games with you. They're coming in. They're taking you out, taking you somewhere else. against your will and it all turns out to be real.

People like to say, we're ready for the truth. Well, yeah, maybe and maybe not, you know, because that's not scary. I think we're right on the edge of the truth coming out. I think we're very close and it is going to be hard. Because just the little bit I've seen so far, people are already going crazy. They're bringing their religions in and their beliefs and there are people, with these absolute certainties, you know, it's the such and such group and this and that. You know, the truth is, we don't know a darn thing about what this actually is yet.

And in our, excuse me, in our context, it might be very hard for us to focus this in a way that makes sense to the human mind. I think we can focus it to a degree because a lot of us have. I mean, I have the experiencer group has, and, you know, people have different ways of dealing with it. But what it is in an absolutely objective and sort of fundamentally factual way, that might be real hard to get to. I'm curious, like, you know, going to be honest, knowing you is, did. different, you know, kind of hearing about this. A lot of people explain odd, bizarre things that occur to them. You have to have the majority of people saying, Whitley, you're making this up. This didn't happen. You're a novelist. You're a novelist. You got other traumas. You're filling in

the voids. You're just trying to make more movies. This is what people throughout probably your whole time talking about this. So my question is, I have no idea. You, you know, you know, you. You're just trying to you're telling us something. How do you deal with that, though? If what you're saying happened to you, how do you deal with the perception of the world, you know, some people embrace it because they've had similar experiences

and they're like, oh, thank God, he's telling what happened. How do you deal with people that think this is total horseshit? Well, there's basically, there's three groups of people around. One is the people who've had the experience. Two is the vast, vast majority of people

who've never heard of it. don't care about it if they have heard of it. And then there's another small group of people who want to say it's bullshit. And you're a liar. And I've been dealing with them all my life. And I don't, I'm not going to say that, that, oh, I, you know, they're wrong, et cetera, because they may not be wrong. I don't have a baseline, in fact, in this.

only two, three things, the physical things. What happened to me here on the side of my head, what happened to me below when I was raped and left scars that could be diagnosed, and the implant in my ear, which came in in 1989, those three things are physical. And the three of them together, in my mind, indicate something is not right,

that there is something, there is somewhere a baseline. There is a physical reality here. But I don't know what it is. Now, as far as dealing with these people, I can't. I would never say to someone who says, this is, you are making a mistake. I would never say they were wrong because I can't prove it.

Yeah, so you don't blame or feel kind of anything to the people that in their position, they're like, this is horseshit. you let them, you're saying, I can't prove this stuff. And so you don't blame them for having that kind of resistance or attitude. I don't see why I should. Right. But I do get pissed off when they bully me. And I've been bullied a lot.

And I don't like that. I think it's wrong. Do you throw punches sometimes? I can throw a punch, believe it, but I have never done that. I have to admit. It gets annoying, right? when you're doing it. Yeah, well, if you've been raped and there's people making it into a joke, that's about as nasty as a human being gets. And I've endured that for 30 years.

South Park. South Park, exactly. What's that? Tell me about that. Well, South Park's, South Park's premiere episode is about me. Yeah. And they, you know, it is literally about a rectal probe. And it's a, and, you know, the first mention of, of my rape and communion is used the word rape. And then under hypnosis, I call it a rectal probe. And they seized on that on purpose. And they did it to make me into a laughing stock. And they did that because they thought

the whole thing was bullshit and I deserved to be laughed at. That's why they did it. Not knowing that they were basically bullying the hell out of a rape victim. And I think now more and more people realizing that, yeah, these things do happen to people because we're talking about me right now. But what about the women who lost fetuses and eggs? There's plenty of those out there. And the other men who had semen taken from them, that happened to them too.

Why do you think, okay, so let's just make the assumption here that this is happening physically, tangibly. I'm going to start from right there. Why do you think that's being done, in your opinion? What would be the purpose of that? Well, I get into that in some depth in them. And also, I believe, in the previous book. Yeah, but I got you right here right now. I want to hear your opinion. I don't worry. I'm trying to frame it here.

Sure, sure. No, I'm not going to just say it's in the book. Believe me, that's not why I'm here. Anyway, thank you. Anyway, I think that they, that the, that the, they have to, you know, you have to let people, go where they want to go, you know, where they need to go. But why would these beings be doing this to human beings if it's true? Well, doing it to us, let me give you some possibilities.

One, they are making a sort of seed bank of mankind. That would follow from the fact that they've warned every abdectady they've gotten a hold of practically that the planet is in peril. And if, you know, if you live in New York or Toronto right now, you would definitely agree with that. As we speak, the smoke from the hundreds of Canadian fires is just terrible. So maybe they're expecting us to go extinct and they're making a seed bank not only of us, but I would presume of other creatures on this planet.

That's one possibility. The second possibility is that they're breeding human beings in their own context in hopes of finding some bridge between the two worlds. Hybrid? Well, hybrid is another story because I'm talking about just breeding human beings. But if they are also injecting genetic material of another species or something, that's way beyond what we can do, but not that far. And I do have some evidence in my own life that that might have happened.

I might have actually been witness to that. So that could be part of it too. But, you know, if we turn it around and we look at our world, it's the kind of thing we do to animals all the time, routinely. And so maybe they looked at our world and said to themselves, why they do it to animals, so they're an animal, so we'll do it to them. You know, maybe they won't care. What's the difference just because I don't really know,

and I've heard there's contactees, abductees, and experiencers. What's the difference between those three so people know? Well, I don't think there's too much difference between experiencers and abductees. A lot of experiences are abductees. I would consider myself to be both. And an experiencer is someone who has ongoing experiences with the visitors, which I do. And an abductee is someone who basically started out generally with a being abducted, which I did, and quite a few people, like in the experiences group, I think,

had the same experience that as well. A contactee is not necessarily someone who has had a physical encounter, and a lot of them tend to be people in the spiritual community, and, you know, they have a, much more positive attitude toward the whole thing than those of us who've been dragged by out into the night and raped. You know, that movement started back in the early 50s with George Adamski and all those other fellows going out and basically making money off of what I assume were pretty much tall stories.

I think that my wife used to say that these are people who had something happen. Maybe they saw a UFO, maybe they had a brief close encounter, something, or maybe a bigger close encounter, and they can't connect the dots. They can't figure it out. And so they connect the dots themselves, and they basically build a fantasy. I think that's the source of a lot of folklore. And in this field, there is a lot of folklore. By folklore, I mean, not necessarily things people are simply making up. Not all folklore is completely fictional. A lot of folklore comes when people have a perception that they can't understand, and they

fit it into the context of whatever their culture has at the time. Like Jacques Valais book, Passport to Magonia takes that back a thousand years or more. And you can look at as time passes, each generation, it is looking at this experience, which is essentially the same experience, in the context of its own belief systems and understanding of the world. space aliens were elves and pixies and fairies a thousand years ago. Exactly. Yeah, or not a thousand, two hundred years ago. You know, I don't know that there's anybody in the world who has the level of understanding

with these beings, whoever they are, as you, because, you know, there are other people who've had a lifetime of experiences, but not many who've thought about it, dove into it and analyze it as much as you. The story's told in communion. You know, the context of that that the public got out of it is these are space aliens here abducting us they come from other planets and interact in that book you are careful to call them visitors you didn't call them aliens or etes and in them your latest book you sort of come full circle go back to the letters that were written about communion to try to understand who they are why they're here give us your current understanding of who they are and where they're from are they visitors or are we the newcomers

Well, it could be part of both. The suggestion is that they have been here for a long time and have affected our world at times. They've kind of touched it. And an example would be Ezekiel's wheel, where he has an experience that he describes in the time in which he makes his description. you couldn't make a thing like that up because what he was seeing was completely unknown to his culture. He could not have known anything like that ever. Because it was technological in nature. Yeah, exactly.

He's talking about a technological device that we can now understand. So we have to assume that he was, something was inject being injected into the Middle Eastern cultures at the time by somebody. and Ezekiel had a direct encounter with it, which he recorded in his own culture's way. Like, UFOs are described as shields on fire in the sky by the Romans. So that's a way to describe something that is not within your context, is what you're saying? Well, there's a wonderful description of an out-of-context situation in, it's, in Jacques's book in passport to Magonia, in I believe in 14th century Japan, there were a lot of, there were basically there was a UFO wave going on, a UFO flap, as they now call them.

And people were seeing these things. And the emperor became very irritated. And in those days, you know, emperor irritated emperor heads are liable to roll at any moment. And he demanded of his astronomers to tell him what the hell these things were. and they came up with the most beautifully poetic answer. It is the first piece of debunking known to man. They explained it as the wind making the stars sway. Wow.

And they kept their heads. But they're part of us and part of our world. And this is something, unfortunately, I think that the whole, the whole way the culture has been, our vision of this has been distorted by secrecy and by assumptions being made in the media that it's aliens from another planet. If this does flow out into

the, into common knowledge in some way if there's some kind of higher, official admission of the presence of craft and bodies, for example, which I think could be on the way, then the public will conclude that these are aliens from another planet. And we're going to get into crazy hour very quickly. I think it's unfortunate, but I think it's exactly what will happen. And those of us who are you guys, who are communicators, experts in this field, people like me and the other experiences are going to just have to make ourselves heard to say, hey, yeah, you've got bodies, you've got craft, but boy, do you need to keep this in question?

I give you one, oh, go ahead. Why? Like, so if, what do you mean? We'll go into crazy, like, so if we have craft and we have bodies and the craft appear to be able to travel amongst the stars, and if that is what's ended up revealed, just hypothetically, what is your warning here? Well, the warning is this. What if they don't travel?

among the stars? What if there's something else about these things that we don't yet understand? I'll give you an example of what I mean. One of the things that has been out there is that some of the materials that were gathered that have been gathered have been found, I believe, if I'm not correct, it might be Jacques Valet and Gary Nolan who did this. Yeah, the isotopic ratio. The isotopic ratios, yeah. Okay. Now, the material. I mean, I've had these things in my hands, and they don't, not the ones they had, but some others. They're not in any way. You wouldn't know there was any unusual isotopic ratios.

And in fact, the metal can be, it could be theoretically fabricated and used because the different isotopic ratios don't change its properties. Those isotopic ratios can't form naturally anywhere in this universe, not just on earth, but anywhere. So they were made, they were fabricated. In a universe, which has a different set of isotopes. Or you could construct very easily, if you have the technology, different isotopic ratios. Not easily, no. Not easily for us.

Well, it takes a tremendous amount of energy to do it, unless you can, unless there's some other way that we don't know about. We don't have the, no one is doing this in the lab to fool people. Let me put it that way. But why do it? Unless there is some process that requires that we don't yet understand. But there has recently been an article, a rather paper, and I can't cite it from memory about a mirror universe that might exist really essentially right here.

And I've had some experiences with something that might suggest that as well, as I detailed in a new world where I was seeing into what appeared to be another universe on the Lakota Sioux Reservation in South Dakota, in, I believe, in the summer of 2018. And it was quite incredible experience. And if there is a mirror universe and they can cross over, they might be bringing devices that are manufactured in their universe that has different isotopes. You wrote in communion when you wrote it, the multiverse scientists might have thought about it, parallel realities. People had thought about it. But the public, it wasn't widely known. after your book came out, those concepts are more widely known among even those of us who are not scientists. The idea that there are parallel realities, alternate universes, is not that far-fetched anymore.

You know, Jacques Valet had said the first interview I ever did with him, he said, look, I'm going to be really disappointed if it turns out the answer to the mystery is these are people coming here from other planets. Because if they can control space time, they can be from other planets, other dimensions, other realities, you know, time travelers, all the above. Well, the time traveler thing is a very interesting possibility too. Because we do know that time moves in both directions and there's no bar, real bar to moving through time. There might be, however, the grandfather paradox might mean

that you have the very little ability to alter your own past. unless you appear in your own past in some form that never existed at all. And if that's the case, then these little beings with the big heads are a disguise of people from the future who are trying to change our past, their own past, trying to alter their past. for some reason that we don't know. And they are using this to give themselves more latitude, more of an ability to act in our reality in the past, in their own past. Do we know what they really look like? I mean, you've encountered them up close and personal.

Some of them looking different from the other ones. Yeah. We also know about it. They appear to us as owls in our head or other kinds of creatures. Oh, they're very good at that. One thing that I found that the brain will, if it gets, if you, one of the things that we do when we're born is we start to put the world together in our brains. The brain always does it pretty much the same way. And at first, the baby is completely, he doesn't have any, any way to put anything together.

But that changes rather quickly because this brain is in an environment. and then his trying begins to try to make sense of that environment. And sooner or later, a whole, the world generates meaning for the baby. And by the time he's four or five, he or she can see a tree and identify all this whole world and that grows and grows over the lifespan. then. But if something enters that after the baby is already established its reality, something penetrates into that reality that the mind can't find anywhere in its memory, then that gets very dicey as to what it's going to see. When something is coming into your eyes, when you're

looking at something or any perception, most of your brain activity involves the catalog. It is looking for memories to make sense of what it's seeing. This is constant and instantaneous. It's going on in all of our brains right now. But if something came into this that shouldn't be here, we might see it in very different ways. We might not see it at all. A lot of physicists now believe that there is no objective reality. What we see is reality is the result of evolution, that our senses have developed over eons,

so that we can navigate through this reality. But that reality itself is based on the observer. Well, you can never see anything except directly. You can only interpret your own perceptions. Touch, taste, feel, size. smell, those are all inside us. So the people who argue that the universe is essentially a mental thing have to be partly right, at least partly right, because we can never experience anything directly. It's all indirect through the perception, through the body, through the

senses. You interpret what your senses tell you is there. You don't see it direct. And that would be why the visitors are very skilled, I think, at handling, at manipulating that. And they can, one of the editors that William Morrow and Company encountered two of them in a bookstore in Manhattan. And they were, you know, they were dressed in overcoats and hats, but they had those great big black eyes and scared the hell out of them. And they were reading the book, flipping through the book and laughing, of course. the story you tell in them new book so you know you went back to the beginning you looked at the letters that have been written about communion you went to rice look through these and try to to sort of look at the whole story through the eyes of people who'd read your book and had experiences and i think

there's a quote from you in the book where you say there was widespread criticism of communion at every level of society but there was only one group of critics that really scared me the visitors themselves, meaning you write about the visitors were in the book reading, I mean, in the book store reading communion. Right. Well, my editor calls me up and he says, weirdly, I have good news and bad news. I said, well, what's the bad news? Of course, you always ask for the bad news first.

You want to get it up. And the bad news was rather surprising. He said, well, the visitors think your book is a joke. I said, Jim, what are you talking about? He said, well, that's the good news. We all believe you now. He says, what are you talking about, man? He says, well, Bruce Lee, not the Bruce Lee, but the other Bruce Lee.

He was history, an editor of military history at William Morrow, walked into a bookstore the other day. This is right when the book was just coming out. It was like the first week. And he, two of those people, your people, he said. They always call them my people. Anyway, your people. Well, we're in there.

So what people? The little people with the great big eyes were reading your book. I thought, holy walk-a-mole, now what? I said, okay, tell me more. And he says, well, they were reading your book. They were paging through it very quickly, and they were laughing and saying that it didn't happen, this didn't happen, and that didn't happen. I said, what?

You're kidding. He says, no, I'm not kidding. Bruce is not a liar. He's telling it straight. And I thought to myself, this is a practical joke. I've never played any practical jokes on the people at William Morrow and company, though. So I had the hope that it was just a mistake. So I talked to Bruce Lee, and he describes these people, the little beings perfectly.

They were about five feet tall, and they were in hats and coats, and they definitely had the big eyes. And basically, when they stopped and looked at him, they scared the hell out of them, and he left the store. And so I thought, oh, hell. now I know that the visitors think my book's bullshit. What am I going to do about that? And so I say to Bruce, did they say anything at all about like which parts were?

No, he said, they just were laughing. I'm saying this wasn't true and that wasn't true. They were paging through it too fast for me to keep up with it. I said, well, what did you do? He says, I left. I got my wife and we left. So I thought to myself, this has to be a practical joke. It has to be.

It can't be real. And it sounds like a comedy, man. It does sound like exactly. A comedy. Little did I know that it was a practical joke, but now that I know the visitors a little better, I am aware of the fact that they play jokes. They're very jokey and often in a fairly ominous and unfunny way,

but at times it can be fairly funny. and this was fairly funny. In any case... So they got a sense of humor. They have a sense of humor. Okay. Right. Yeah.

In any case, I got this lie detector guy. Did lie detector work for the police department? And he had been forced to pass me on a lie detector test. And he really wanted to get... I said, so I called him and I said to him, there's this guy Bruce Leaves is from the publisher. He's got to be lying. This has got to be a joke.

I want you to do a test on him. And he says, sure, I'll be glad to you. So Bruce goes down. He passes the test. And he says, you know, Whitley, that guy is a sadist. I mean, you really beat me up. First, it took over an hour. And second, he's yelling at me and going on.

And I thought he was trying to break him. He was trying to get him to force him to break him. And Bruce was telling the truth. So you, even though you've had all of these extraordinary experiences that you relay in your books, you even thought that this guy, Bruce Lee, not the Bruce Lee, was lying about this. You sent a polygraph guy to go test him? I got it. I got him to go down and get a polygraph.

I did. Because I was just not going to believe. And he was willing to do it. too. That's so bizarre. And the fact that he was, Anne said, Bruce is willing to do that. She said, then it happened. And I said, I guess it did happen. And the polygraph guy agreed that, you know, Bruce was not lying. And, you know, after communion came out, there was constant stories being, I guess, flowing out from the intelligence community. You were good at dropping stories where they want them dropped that, you know, lie detectors don't work. And that's why they're not used in court and

etc. and so forth. What they didn't say, of course, is that most people in sensitive positions take lie detector tests every few months. And they do that because they do work. In the hands of a good operator, they do work. They work very well. And that's why the operator that did that test on me and on Bruce was, he was one of the best. So he, so it, Bruce told the truth. The damn this thing. I mean, but here's a, we sort of whacked into this because we were talking about the brain and the way it rejects things that I think that if they had wanted to, they could have gone into that bookstore and no one, including Bruce Lee, would have seen them. I think they wanted him to see them because then they left and he saw them walking off down the street

and nobody batted in an eye. Nobody batted in an eye. You're right. In them, your later, book, there's a line in there, they mean us no harm. I don't know if that's you writing that or that's one of the witnesses. That's a witness. You're talking to a guy that got roughed up a good head. I'm not so sure I would say that myself. You write that they are not angels. They're not demons. So I wonder, what are they? Are they beings? Are they biological robots? Are they we don't really get to see the real them? I ask in this context, a lot of the people who call themselves experiences now are they're taking polls that say overall it's a pretty positive experience it really changed my life for the better whereas from the communion days the experiences were not viewed

in a positive light no well you know my experience my relationship with them evolved over the years a lot i um after ban and i realized that this was real that there's somebody was was there and they weren't human, I decided, I thought to myself, I'm going to try to expand my contact. This was after I pretty much while I was writing communion right after. Anyway, how would I do that? I decided what I would do is I would wait until late at night and walk back to the place where I thought it had happened. And I would just do that night after night as an indication of my willingness to re-engage. So I said to Anne, why don't we do this? We'll go

down to the place to the circle, where it happened, late at night, and just sit there and just think about wanting to reconnect and see if it works. She said, but there's one little thing that's wrong with what you said. It's the word we. You, you are the one who this happened to you go down there in night. And the first night I tried to, I got to the edge of the yard, and I literally could not make my legs work. I could not walk farther.

I had to go back. It was hard, but I did it. And I finally, after about six months or so, there began to be responses, little weird things that happened. And like the UFO, I was communicating with them in my head. I thought I was anyway. And I was saying, you know, Anne's not, she's in the middle of this and she's not even seen a UFO. And this will get back to the sense of humor, by the way. And show her one of your things, because I know you can do that.

So a few nights later, we're sitting out in the hot tub. It's winter. And, you know, we're in the hot tub in the winter. And everyone in a hot tub in the winter outside is strategizing about why I should stay in the hot tub and not get out into the cold, even though I've been in here for four hours. So we're doing, we're there. And all of a sudden we hear this eh over the house. And I think, Jesus, it's them. And we look up, I said, Annie, I think it's them.

Look at, listen to that noise. And then there moves over the hot tub what looked like a gigantic flying pile of logs decorated with Christmas lights going and we're looking up at this thing and she says, you went up in that? I said, I don't know what that is, Ann. She says, well, it better not fall on us. And then it goes off and down a, little draw and you can hear it going off up another draw into the woods. So that was Anne's UFO. A pile of logs with Christmas lights on it. What do you think of that? What do you make of the absurdity that seemed to be on purpose? It was on purpose for sure. Yeah, there's so many cases. Like there's a Nobel Prize winning scientist who saw a green raccoon. That was, yeah, that was, what was his name? Carrie Mullins. Carrie, Carrie, Lewis. Oh, he was a good,

guy knew Kerry Mullis. And we talked about his experience, very much so. And he was, he's, I said, why do you think it was like that? And he was a very brilliant man. And he didn't say it was their sense of humor. He said, it was what I could see. Oh, interesting. A very, very good answer. You hear that and you think, I understand now why I won a Nobel Prize. It was in chemistry, But nevertheless, that was a very good mind. The absurdity that comes along with them, I'm thinking of Kelly Hopkinsville, that famous case where it was like aliens in a shooting gallery.

They'd shoot them and they'd pop back up. We just did a story a couple of days ago about an incident in Las Vegas. I don't know if it's real or not, but they said these 10-foot-tall aliens got behind the controls of a front-loader machine and was trying to operate it. That makes no sense.

I mean, you know, it seems like these kind of the tail, are thrown into the cases to make them absurd on purpose and hard to believe. I don't think that it, I think it has two purposes. I think it is, one, it keeps the question opened and to the witnesses who are there, it tells them that this is something real, because it's not something you would just dream up. In other words, it's confirming and also keeps the question open. It does both. They're very, very interested in keeping the question open. That's why things are like they are. That's why it was, me, a horror novelist with a bad reputation as a prankster who ended up doing this instead of

Carl Sagan. And because I can tell the story, a story well and very accurately. I'm very accurate. I'm a good witness. But you don't have to believe a person with my background. You just Right. No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks co-pilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs.

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sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed, sponsored jobs. Let me ask you this. So I can accept from where I'm standing that there are machines, that they are in our skies.

I've seen evidence of this that's so weighty. I can't ignore that or not the luxury of disbelief. I know our military is involved. I know that we have what we believe to be recovered vehicles. so I can understand that. I can grasp that conceptually. It's harder for me to grasp things that are so foreign to me. So how do you allow those two worlds to live together, this technological story, maybe physical things that have been told to, or through human dialogue with the things that you're describing?

Is there a world where those things work, where they fit, where they mesh? Like, how do you mesh those things? Well, if you don't walk the type of question, I mean, you have physical craft on one side, debris material. I've got some of the material myself in my office. And it's real. You've got that on one side. You're going to have stories about bodies coming out, I would guess, very soon. You have all of that on one side.

It's an entirely physical story. Yeah. On the other side, you have this enormous body of testimony that suggests that this is part of the physical world, yes, but not quite in the same way we are, because it is freer to move in and out of a more numinous level of reality. If you don't stay on that tightrope between the two things, you fall into belief, one belief that's not big enough or another belief that's not big enough. Because this whole thing, the whole question is this. Whatever it is, it has an expression that is also non-physical in some way. And that may be its origin even. We don't know that.

We don't know if the strange materials are spun out of the mind or technology like we would create or not. I remember Dr. Robert Sarvacher, who was a metallurgist, who Stanton Friedman introduced me to in 1986 when I was working on communion and really trying to find some evidence of some kind of physical aspect of this because, you know, I was injured. I was obviously, it was a physical experience in some way. And Dr. Sauerbacher talked to me about the metal that they had, that they'd gotten from Roswell. And he said that when the electron microscope came on stream, they could look at it and see that it was a molecular mesh, I think was the way he described it. I could be wrong about that.

But anyway, so there was some real physical stuff on the one hand. On the other hand, I remembered flying up. into the air without an elevator. I just rose right up into the thing out of the woods. So you figure all that, you put all those things together, you can't really do it. Sarkbacher was a pretty major figure in this field. For our audience who don't recognize me, he is a presidential science advisor. He first popped into the UFO world because of quotes that he gave to a researcher that said, yeah, I was invited to take a look at these crashed saucers or whatever recovered materials, and it's, I can tell you that it's classified higher than the H-bomb.

Pretty famous quote. He was a major guy, and you got to meet him. Well, I met him on the telephone, and he, yeah, he didn't have a security clearance, and he didn't have any confidentialities, and nor did he respect that. He didn't understand. He told me, I don't understand why it's so secret. And he told me a lot of things about it, including about the same thing Art Exxon would tell me two years later that we had crashed discs.

or no, excuse me, my uncle Mickey told me that we had crash discs. And R. Exxon agreed with that. And in any case, they were both at right field when the debris was brought in. They were both in air material at the time. And so Dr. Sarbacher was very plain spoken, and he said to me, the last thing he said was, I would like you to sit down and write out everything you remember that happened to you. And so the next day, I wrote it all out as I remembered it. And he wanted me to send it to him by overnight.

Overnight was just new then. There was FedEx, and UPS overnight had just started. And they had it in my area, but not FedEx. So I used UPS overnight. And they came and picked it up. And the next day, someone called me from UPS. I guess I think it was the guy who was trying. to deliver it and said, I'm sorry I can't make this delivery.

The individual that is addressed to has died and Dr. Sauerbacher had died. I said, do you know how he died? And the man said, he fell off of his yacht. The death certificate says national causes. But that scared me. And in communion you see me referring to him, but not to any details about his death or any anything. Because at the time, I was just beginning to realize that there was a heavy duty level of secrecy involved in this and that there were a lot of very unusual people involved.

And I was scared. I was, you know, I have a family and I had a little boy and a wife and I didn't want us to get tangled up in some awful weird stuff with those, of people. The next question, like we might learn really soon about a technological reality associated with the UFO phenomenon. That feels imminent. And that feels like something that can be provable, digested, and accepted, and is likely true. But the next question people are going to ask is if that is true and there is some other,

there's some other that is somehow engaging humanity, are all of these other stories, or are some of these other stories true? What's the intent? Are some of these abduction stories true? Is that why there's been some sort of cover-up is because the reality is scarier than people can know right away? So that is a logical question if we learn that the core reality

to the physical aspect of UFOs is true. Where does that lead us? What other questions, what harder questions are going to need to be asked? I think that the first question that needs to be asked, after that question is answered. If we have got the answer, there is a physical presence here.

We have bodies, we have biology, we have technology, it's physical presence. Then why is it that so many people who engage with this presence experience it, for example, along with their own dead friends and relatives? What is it about? the experience or about this presence that is partly physical, that also seems to bleed off into areas of reality that most of us don't even believe exist. Like life after death? Like life after

death, etc. Like Annie came out of her office one day and she says to me, quickly, this has something to do with what we call death. And the reason she said that was a letter after letter, not every letter, but a lot of letters, enough for her to notice it as a trend, refers to experiences where dead friends and relatives would appear right before, during, or with the visitors. And that happened at our cabin. Not to me, but to other people who came. She was very good at, she was really very strange, just a nice girl from Michigan. I mean, there was nothing when I met Anne that would say that she was.

anything else. But except, I guess, once we were together, strange things began to happen that we regarded as quite funny. But in any case, she had an ability to feel who would see the visitors when they came. And, you know, Lori Barnes, her secretary, had experiences at the cabin. A woman that wrote us letters, Raven Dana, who's still very much with us, had experiences at the cabin. Other people did, too, who haven't come forward yet, a number of other people. But Raven and Laurie, no, I guess not Raven. Lorry was one of the ones. She walked into the cabin one evening after taking a walk, and she said, I just saw my brother on the road. And we didn't know anything about her brother. And so I thought, what's he doing up here? And then she said,

he disappeared 20 years ago and the FBI declared him dead. And he was standing there. I tried to get him to come down. But he just said that he was there to let her know he was all right. And he drifted off into the woods and disappeared before my eyes. And Anne said to me very quietly, a little later the visitors will be here tonight. And they were. And most of the time when they came, either in the context of their arrival or sometime before, there would be someone having a fairly extraordinary experience with the dead. Now, getting back to this question, which has sort of become the theme of our discussion in a way,

you have to walk the line because we're going to have physical, we've got the physical debris is now real. There will be attempts to debunk it, I'm sure. I'm sure that there are people in the DOD working overtime to discredit David Grush. And I think there's already a story in the Atlantic Monthly about it. And all this bullshit will go on and on and on. But the bottom line is we do have debris and probably intact saucers devices. Now, how do we go from there to encounters between the living and the dead?

we're going to have to do that. But you know, we're capable of this because what you said before, that we're going to, we're going to crack the nut of the materials very quickly, the bodies, the materials, we're going to understand this. And once the question of how they all work is actually out into the public space and freed from the very airless world of the inside, There's just not enough good minds. I mean, there's a lot of good minds in there, but they're nothing compared to what's on the outside.

There's a lot of brilliance out there in the world. And I would say that we will figure out how these things work. But let me just finish. But all that, yes. But then what do we do with this other thing? The dead. They're not even supposed to exist. We live in a secular world now.

We don't believe there's anything other than the body. I don't agree with that. And I have definitely aware of the soul. But most people aren't. How do we go there? How do we go down that road? How do we make sense of that? It's a good question, I think.

You wrote a book called The Key? Yep. And it's about a series of encounters or at least one major encounter. One encounter. Only one. You're awake. You're sober. This is not a dream.

And you have a conversation or at least a download from a being. It was a conversation. It mentioned about the afterlife. Yeah, right. What did you tell you? Well, he talked a lot about a lot of things. Contextually, I was at the Delta Chelsea Hotel in Toronto. I'll never forget it.

I was in room 2545 when it happened. And there came a knock on the door, and I thought it was the room service waiter because I had a tray on the, you know, I'd eaten in my room. And I opened the door, and this guy comes rushing in. And it's immediately obvious. It's not the room service waiter. And one rule of thumb, if you're a writer, or any of you guys have the same rule of thumb, I'm sure. No one who comes to you after midnight is going to be good news.

I thought it was earlier, but I realized then it was about two. And so I started trying to get him out. But he was so articulate and said such extraordinary things, it turned into a conversation. And he talked about the dead and about the fact that they are real and that this is, that there is a flow between the living and the dead and that what we call the dead. And I've always thought to myself, I wonder if they call us the dead. You know, in other words, what we think of as the dead or the living as far as they're concerned, and we're dead. I don't know. But after my wife passed away, years and years ago, when we began to, we were both.

totally secular. I mean we were not religious and yet we were getting all these stories and we decided that if there is an afterlife the one of us that goes first we'll start out by communicating with friends if this is possible. Because if I, you know, if we were not the type of people if I had like seen Ann's ghost or something I would just assume it was my imagination. So After any passed away, that same night, not even two hours later, a friend who did not know she was dead calls up and says, Whitley, is Ann okay? And I said, Belle, no, she's passed on. She just passed on a couple of hours ago.

She knew she was sick, of course, all of our friends did. And she said, because I just heard her say very clearly in my ear to call Whitley. and I had been sitting there literally thinking, Annie, if you still exist in any way, for God's sakes, let me know. I'd forgotten about the pact. And this happened five or six times over the next week with all kinds of different people, all totally unrelated to each other, totally unrelated to each other. And I finally, even me, always clinging to the skeptic, the skeptic, the skeptic, and, you know, they got this guy who's just not a believer dragged into this thing. And so I'm not getting into a belief mode until finally I realize it has to be true.

She is still here. It couldn't be any other way. And that developed into an ongoing relationship with my wife. And that's why I wear two rings. we're still married, but we're just down to one body for the time being. The first time we ever talked, it was via satellite in August of 1989, and you hit me with a quote that I've used many times since then, and we'll never forget. You said that the true architects of the secrecy are the visitors.

Yes. You write about that extensively in them. You continue that. You expanded further saying that the secrecy has been imposed. by them on our government, on our military. What do you mean? Well, they haven't imposed it by going to Mr. President or somebody and saying, you keep this under the cover, under covers.

It's been much more indirect and clever than that. They have done things that our military has no choice but to keep secret. I'll give you a perfect example. The Roswell incident was not the first incident. There were other things that happened before then. Specifically, there was probably the Trinity incident, which Jacques Valé and Paul Harris wrote about in Trinity. But then there were also a number of shootdowns of missiles that we were testing at White Sands, German rockets that we had that we were testing at White Sands.

And I go into, in them, I go into some detail about those shootdowns. And at the time, what would come out of it. then the press was fairly straightforward. Only later did it get covered up, but you can tell from the reports that it probably were shootdowns taking place. And of course, the military would have been completely bananas about it internally.

But then the Roswell incident occurs, and this incident, this object, crashes a few miles from, Roswell Army Airfield where the 5009th bomb wing is stationed. Those are the only operational atomic bombers in the world. That is a place that Stalin most wants to know about in the whole world. Because he's got four and a half million soldiers along a line across Central Europe, ready to sweep into Western Europe and take the whole thing.

And he's not doing that because he's not doing that because he's scared those bombers will come over and blow him smithereens, like all dictators. He's terrified of his own death. And he's in Moscow, and he is afraid they'll bomb him. And he's right. They would have. And the Russians did not have sufficiently sophisticated countermeasures. Some of those bombers, or maybe even all of them, would have gotten through to the heart of the Soviet Union. and he could not respond in any significant way. So it's a stalemate. He's sitting there.

Now, word comes from Roswell, that debris of a crashed aircraft has been found. I think it was 30 or 40 miles north of the field. And at first, the soldiers are excited because they're more innocent. They don't have the mindset of the upper, higher levels. and they want to tell the world. They found it flying disc. And Saraswell Army Airfield did it. Hey, we're really cool.

And upper levels say this could be a Soviet spy plane, and they totally clamped down. Now, in my opinion, the visitors knew damn well what would happen, that A, they would reveal themselves, and B, we would, the military would keep it secret because they intended from the beginning, and there's a long period of human history in which they were injecting themselves into our historical stream at times very carefully. Then after the atomic bomb, they decide, we've got to do something

more radical here. And that means that a real relationship has to be developed. And this is going to take time. This is going to be hard, but we have to start somewhere and we have to control it. And we're going to let these people know we're here. We're going to let them learn all kinds of things about us. But what we are not going to do is let them tell their public. Because if they tell their public, that will be cultural colonization. The whole public mind will turn toward us and we will no longer, they will not. no longer be developing them on their own. It is an incredibly compassionate and also self-serving

thing to do. And so they keep themselves hidden while under the surface teaching us all kinds of things about them. Now, when this finally begins to emerge from the hidden world, from the inner circles, it is going to emerge as an ongoing process of discussion. discovery that where it's, it's, we're not in the dark about a lot of things. We're going to be, the public is going to be brought into this at a time when we already have a certain amount of control over the relationship. That's what's happened. And that's, and I think it's, it's, it's happening now because the planet is unstable due to the fact that there's too many human beings on it. My experiences with the visitors is that they're not in the least concerned.

They're not pointing fingers at anyone saying, oh, they're not responding, they're not helping the planet, et cetera. They just say it's population, it's overpopulated, and therefore it's going to fail. And they're going to intervene in some way because, you know, they don't want that to happen to us. And I don't blame them. I obviously don't want it either. And they're doing it very, very carefully. They have, they've got a contingency plan that they have enacted. That's what the abductions were about.

Whatever their outcome was, they have in some way preserved some kind of a record of us and probably other species on the planet in case this fails. but they are going to now try to integrate with us in a way that we don't integrate with anything. And at first it's going to be easy. We're going to say, oh, cool, aliens. Finally, the government's coming. But then later, the whole issue of the living and the dead and the soul and the body will come more and more into focus. and why my wife, who's, as I've said before, was a very unusual being, decided this book should be called Communion, that book will become more and more evident in the lives of every single human being who's exposed to this. Because it is much deeper than simply sitting across a table from a funny-looking man and finding out his cell phone is really cool.

It's much deeper. This is about a new world if we can take it as Phil Korsos said. Communion wasn't just about your experiences. People forget it was it went into great detail about secret government programs and cover ups and things of that sort. The them picks up on it. And it's up to date to the point where the current events, that Amsog program that became Arrow, current studies, ATIP, all that. it becomes very clear. You mentioned our friend Dave Grush.

The pushback's already happening. The debunking is coming. You know, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, they do these not only debunking, but pre-bunking. And you know that he's going to get dumped on. The keepers of the secrets do not want this out. No. For a variety of reasons.

Control, power, because we're worried our right, we'll let our adversaries know how far along we are. But you think that there's no stopping it? I don't think there's any stopping it. I think the visitors are in control of it, and they're going to do what they're going to do. If it stops, it's because they wanted to stop. If it doesn't, and they're not a cohesive group, I don't think. I think there's a lot of give and take among them in argument and fights, frankly.

And so right now, whoever it is who wants this more known is in the ascendancy. And maybe that won't last. I don't know. I think there have been times in the past when they have been and it hasn't lasted. Is there more than one, them? Oh, yeah. I know of two that I've interacted with fairly extensively. And to read the literature, the descriptions from other people, there are many.

And why wouldn't there be? I mean, if there's only one of their intelligent species in this universe, that would be almost as amazing. That would be amazing because, I mean, it's so huge. Yeah. I mean, you think that there are billions of human beings and we feel very common to ourselves, but we are far compared to the number of stars there are in this universe. We are almost so rare that we're a statistical improbability.

We're just that rare. I just think of the, yeah, there are billions of humans, but there are tens of billions of other earthlings, other species, other animals and things. Yeah, but in the context of other planets, you're not talking just about a few. You're talking about many, many, many, many, many. I think that I've often thought that we are somehow or another sequestered here, that the reason we haven't seen anybody and don't pick up any signals

is not because they aren't there, because they're not allowed to get through to us. We're in a state of development of some kind. And maybe the next stage of this development is going to be when we, what is for us, a wall between the worlds of the living and the worlds of the dead ceases to exist. And we become much more like the visitors. I'll tell you a story. And it's from one of Kathleen Marden's books. Kathleen has done an abduction research for many years, and she's a prominent member of Mufon, or was.

Anyway, she may have retired from that by now. In any case, he tells a story of a man who had a little private airport, and he saw a UFO land at the only one of his runways. So he starts putting out lights and things and trying to attract them, and they'd, do come back. But one night, he hears a noise down in his hangar. It's a small operation. He lives in an apartment that's connected to the hangar. And he looks down in there and he sees these little figures walking around in there

and scares the hell out of him. I mean, why would it scare him? I mean, he's invited it, right? You would think. But in any case, he gets himself a shotgun. him. And he wakes up the next night, and there's one of them standing in his room, and he shoots it, and it blows it all to hell, into this yellow goo that promptly disappears. I believe that's the story. In any case, he then is haunted.

This thing that's now a ghost, and it's hostile. and it's furious at him and it's haunting him. And he goes mad and dies. Now, am I telling you a story about something that lives comfortably in two levels of reality at the same time? One of which we are familiar with and one of which we are not? And he accidentally basically blew out its body,

at leaving only its non-physical portion and maybe in their world you have to pay a lot of money to have a body like we do a car or something and it was pissed off at it. Who knows? But, you know, there's every reason we would think that story is nonsense.

I can only say this. What if it's not? If it's not, then we've got a very, very extraordinary road to travel over the next few years. You co-wrote a book with Art Bell, the late Art Bell, our friend. Yeah.

Warning about cataclysms to come. And it seemed like that was ahead of its time in that global climate change is here. I wonder, you know, we've heard the visitors, wherever they're from, deliver these alien editorials to people dating back to the 50s, maybe long ago, longer than that.

Take care of your planet, quit messing around with nuclear weapons, warnings that we have obviously not heated. I wonder if they've in essence given up on us in that regard, that they know that something is coming, that it's about to hit the fan. Would they ever intervene in a direct way to help us or have they intervene just by trying to tell us to amend our ways? Is that as far as they know?

Well, I have really been back and forth with them about this. And I wish I could say that I could, I've asked them about this, I should say. I've asked them, why don't you just appear for five minutes in an incontrovertible way, in some way, you know, on a big international video, you know, on a, on a camera crew, in front of a camera, a professional camera crew from a, big news organization like the BBC or CBS or something. Or they could come on weaponized. It's totally cool with me.

Exactly. No, no. I mean, they'll walk into the Super Bowl. There's a million things they could do easily. Because the second they did that, then that message that has been left among the close encounter witnesses would be amplified instantly. And those people would all come forward saying this is why they're here. And it would be, it would empower them.

But they don't do it. it. And there are, I think that it's basically gets back to that Phil Corso statement. A new, they said they told him what was on offer for us, from us, for us was a new world. If you can take it, the emphasis is very definitely on the you, us. We have to do this ourselves. And if we're not strong enough, I think ultimately they'll just go away. Oh, really? I think they'd just leave or something like this. It seems like if any of this is true, there's an investment. First of all, don't give a mine number.

Second of all, there seems to be an investment, right? If this is really happening, this is a long-term thing. Now, if they would, you know, I wish I could tell you that if there's a nuclear exchange or something like that, they will act. Or if there is, if we begin to die in mass numbers because of the fact that the planet has failed, they will come. I don't know that that is going to happen. I think that they have a lot of ways,

perhaps, of affecting the planet's environment and maybe even ways of affecting our ability to use nuclear weapons. But the degree to which they will act, I just can't be sure. You know, if they have to control us, what are we worth to them? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe not enough to justify the effort it would be.

Because ultimately it would be an effort in the physical world. They would have to do something physical to force us to come to heal. And, you know, if we were going to get into a nuclear conflict or they, They might, I think if they were going to force us to do something to save this planet, they would have done that already. Do they consider this to be home? You know, they've interacted with humans as long as we've been here. They've been around a long time.

Yeah. Maybe they live here in some other dimension or something, but did they have any sense that they've conveyed to you that they consider this to be their home too? You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost.

Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your ocean front room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay.

Hilton, for the stay. I can't say yes or no. I don't recall anything except this. They came up out of the ground at our cabin a lot. And we knew that is because they would smell like the forest floor, which is very pungent. And they would smell like something that had just come out of the ground. And not always, but some of them certainly did.

And, you know, there's this thing going on in Peru, weird business, where they are finding these mummies. that are so far not adding up. They're not hoaxes and they're not people. And it's a story that's either going to go away or break. It's hard to know which is going to happen. But they've got over a hundred of them now. And there are problems with it because they come from a man who is secretive about where they come from.

And he's trying to sell them and it makes it look like a hoax. And yet there's so many of them that, and there's been some fairly significant work done on them, MRI scans and things, that one of them shows, for example, in its eggs, in its uterus. And, you know, I don't think that any hoaxer is going to come up with that. And so what I'm saying here is this could be something to do with earth. They could be an earthly species that we just have not, that has been very careful to avoid contact with us because they live underground. You know, the Navajo, the Hopi, other Native American tribes all believe that their ancestors came out of the ground or underground into this world. Yeah, the Higarillo Apaches do too the same thing that they came out of the Archelaida Mesa, which is a place where there's a lot of a UFO,

legends about that Mesa, in fact. So it could be that they are from here. They even could be physically from here. I don't know if you don't own the cabin anymore or whether you keep up with what goes on there, but I wonder if the activity continues or that it happened because you were there. I know the answer to that question.

It happened because I was there. And I do know the couple who owns the cabin now and they're extremely sweet people and the cabin is in good hands. I'm happy to say. And I went there for a documentary for the Travel Channel and that was shown about a year ago, I believe, six months ago. And I went back to the cabin. I thought I would never go back to the cabin.

And I finally did. It was a very moving experience. and I found that they had kept the stone circle, and they were very into my work, and they had a little room in the basement, the Whitley room with all kinds of things in it. It was very cool, and they're an extremely nice couple, and I'm going back there.

I'm going to be back there in August for a week, all by myself. And... Was some company? Well, I don't know. There's a lot of people who have had visitor experiences because they were near me. Yeah, I want to ask you about that. So if this is...

you know, happening to certain people and not to others. It's not the most common story you hear every day, right? So if it is that it's somehow connected to certain people, wanted to ask you that. Have other people had their first sighting of a UFO or something like that or these other stranger experiences, in my mind, stranger? Because they're with you, has that happened a lot? It's happened a fair amount, yeah.

It happened up at the Esselin Institute a number of times that people, you know, they figured out to put me in this, they had these conferences there, these private conferences, and I would be occasionally invited to one. I was at that conference. That was not one in which anyone was in the room with me. But at other times, there's a particular room that overlooks the Pacific, and it's a very easy coming and going. And once Jeff Kriple, the author and one of the leading guys at Esselin was a very easy coming and going, was there in the room, and he had an experience with me in the room.

And I think there might have been someone else, because when the visitors come to me, and they were coming to me to wake me up at 3 o'clock in the morning every single night at that time. They're not doing that now. I get up anyway, but... So rude. Why are they waking you up? I can explain that very clearly.

But if you want me to, the reason is that I wondered that myself, when it started to happen after Annie passed away. And it happened briefly at the cabin and back in the late 90s just before we lost it. But then after any passed away, it started to happen constantly. And, you know, I thought, you know, I really would like to get a nice night's sleep.

But then I discovered something that there is a tradition in a yoga practice in India called Brahamahirtha time. And that is the time an hour and a half approximately before sunrise, when the mind is most open to new things. And they were waking me up to get me to go into a meditative state, to take my mind off of my thoughts and put it on to the sensation of the body.

And I found that an absolute wealth of stuff would come that way. I wrote, Afterlife Revolution, a new world, Jesus, a new vision, and them all using this time period as my source of inspiration. And so that's why the 3 a.m. call comes. So in your mind, it's like they're helping you to get this information out. Yeah, I think so. It's not downloads exactly at all. I mean, I'm not like a psychic or a channeler in any way.

But I get good ideas, and they come at that time. I think my life would be complete if Christopher Walken played me in a movie, as he did, played Whitley in the movie Communion. You had problems with that movie here and there, though. My main problem with the movie is they ran out of money, and their special effects are very primitive. I think that Chris's portrayal of me is rather annoying, but not entirely untrue.

It was awesome. No, I'm a very jokey kind of guy. I mean, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a solemn. I'm not solemn at all. I try to be solemn. I, you know, I've got all this spiritual stuff going on in my life. And I'm, you know, I want to be, you know, solemn. But I'm not solemn.

You're a blast of being around, man. I really appreciate kind of getting to hear directly from you, you know, I know about you, George knows you, but just seeing the way that your kind of presence has influenced so many people and so much of popular culture and our understanding or misunderstanding of this topic, we don't know. You're telling us, we don't know. But the fact you've had that influence, man, it is a real pleasure to be able to hang out with you. I really appreciate it. Yeah. And I'm glad. I want a pleasure to hang out with me because I like to hang out. I'm pretty fun too. We're going to have a couple of beers tonight. It'll be good.

Them. So tell our audience one last time about what's in here that they would not have known, say, from your reading communion or the other books. Okay. Well, first, the first half of the book is an analysis of 11 different experiences that are from other people. Some of them are from the communion letters and some of them were new. But the difference between this book. and everything that's gone before is I have a really, at this point,

maybe the deepest understanding there is of this subject. And it is reflected in the analysis of those stories. And there's nothing like it in the world. Nothing has ever been done like that. And maybe the 3 a.m. part of it had a lot to do with that. The second half of the book is delving into, the secret side of it, into why the military ended up shooting at the visitors. We didn't talk about this, but the other thing they did, besides showing up at places

where requiring absolute secrecy, the other thing that they did was that they provoked the military by continually going into restricted airspace and ignoring them for the point that they would start to put up combat air patrols. And I go into all of that. Then I go into the brain and how the brain functions and how different brains function. For example, the human brain and the dolphin brain. We live on the same planet.

We know everything there is to know about the anatomy of the dolphin. We don't know really a thing about what they're saying to each other in those marvelous communications that all the citations make. We don't know anything about that at all. We can train them to do things for us in our context. We cannot understand anything about their mind. Now, you add to that evolution in a different planetary environment, perhaps with a brain that is fundamentally differently structured from every brain on this planet. And you're going to have a fantastic communications issue. And how to get around that and how to work with that is a big part also of the second part of the book.

Yeah, it does sort of look, it looks through the eyes of aliens, visitors, at us. Yeah, exactly. Because I can do that now. I've done, I've been doing this for a long time and I have really have in, I actually am in contact with them. It's real. It's real. And it's efficient. And I'm not a fantasist. I don't have a beautiful alien mistress or anything like that. I'm doing this as accurately and as much in the context of Western thought as a sense. possible. Well, we need to understand them whether they display themselves in some mass way or not. We need to understand that. We need to heed what they've been telling us for a long time. Yeah. And we need to understand also that we can do this. They would not be here if we can't, couldn't do this. I've known them long enough to know that they're the cheapest bastards in the

world. They're not going to, they're not going to spend a second on anyone that they can't get the result they are looking for from. No way. And they are here. So therefore, they do expect to succeed. You would not consider them your friends. I wouldn't consider them my friends. I'm not sentimental about them at all.

I would consider them a very useful presence in my life, and I'm glad they're here. But I definitely, anytime I get a chance, I'm going to cut the cards myself. I hope people will check out them. and it's a great new book. Whitley's great to see you. Well, it's good to be here.

Thanks for sharing your time, man. See you. Never have so few, had so much to tell, but could say so little. Following this in a webinar, the presentation of Jeremy Corbelle, George Knapp,

Dark Course Entertainment, and Cadence 13 Studios. Available now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your shows.