Weekly Skews - Good Skews: Zachary Mueller on the Public Backlash to Trump’s Deportation Agenda

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

In this episode of Good Skews, Producer Matt sits down with researcher Zachary Mueller to unpack the roots, rise, and current unraveling of Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda. They explore how white nationalist ideology, spearheaded by figures like Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon, has shaped U.S. immigration policy—from the Tea Party era to today’s alarming use of military force and detention infrastructure. With recent CBS polling showing a sharp decline in public support for mass deportations, Mueller highlights the disconnect between campaign rhetoric and policy reality, the strategic manipulation of Republican primaries, and the growing backlash among independents and immigrant communities. The conversation also underscores how labor unions and everyday Americans are stepping up in defense of immigrant rights, offering a hopeful counter-narrative to an increasingly authoritarian agenda.Ask ChatGPTSupport the show

Hello and welcome to another episode of Good Skews. I'm Matt Hilderith, and today's guest is Zach Mueller. We're going to be hearing from Zach, who is a researcher and a journalist, somebody who has been following the rise of white nationalism in the United States, probably more closely than just about anybody else. As we've seen in recent polling, public opinion is collaborative. right now for Donald Trump's deportation, and the far right has spent tons of time and money trying to build public opinion in support of their deportation agenda, and that is collapsing.

So I think that's some good news. Despite all of the horrible things that we're seeing on immigration, there are a few things that are improving, and I wanted to talk with Zach about that today. Zach, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, glad to be here. Before we begin, Zach, could you just maybe tell us a little bit more about where we can find more information on you and where we can follow you online. Yeah. As of right now, I mean, I post mostly on Blue Sky at Zachary A. Mueller at Blue Sky and then also have a substack that is

occasionally writing about immigration and the right online at margins to the mainstream. Excellent. And that's something that we're going to be talking a lot about today. You know, if you look right now, it seems really crazy to see where we've gotten as a country. I think there's a lot of people paying attention now to Donald Trump's deportation agenda because they've not only seen it in the news, but they're starting it to, they're starting to see it have a real impact in their communities. So when you hear about things like alligator, Alcatraz, and all this other crazy stuff the administration is doing, how do you tell people that we got to this moment?

Yeah, I think there's a longer story and then a more abbreviated cliff note story. The longer story, I think, is that there's been a new nationalist movement that has been building since 1965 as a reaction to the Immigration and Nationality Act in 1965. So a long story there that I won't get into entirely. But I think the more recent, more cliff note version of this is we really can kind of start to see a large movement of the anti-immigrant sentiment really can. capitalizing around the Tea Party movement in reaction to Barack Obama, but then there was also people like Stephen Miller, John Tanton, and many others who had long been on the inside the

anti-immigrant movement pushing nationalist politics that saw that political movement around the Tea Party and said, hey, those are our people, we should actually go out and organize them and then create and then move that mass base to take on more anti-immigrant ideas. ideas and fight it out and contest inside the Republican Party, inside primary debates. So I think we can think about somebody even like Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, others on the nationalist bent who don't believe that our immigrant neighbors should be here or that they're not real Americans, really thought to fight this out. And I think particularly I thought about the Tea Party because that there was a battle in 2014.

in a primary fight to oust a then-majority leader of the Republican Party in the House, Eric Cantor, and they won a primary fight by 700 votes in that Virginia primary. And what Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, Rush Linball, lots of the right-wing media apparatus said, well, the reason why Eric Cantor lost was because he was, quote, pro amnesty. And that was because he supported the 2013 immigration reform bill that was supported by both Democrats and Republicans and passed out of the Senate. Now, Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, through Breitbart, through the Senate office with Jeff Sessions, were instrumental in killing that bill.

And then they helped run a primary fight and support a primary fight against Eric Cantor inside the Republican Party to say actually there's a political cost for even sniffing at support of a legislation that was common sense for immigration reform. And that kind of the same, that same idea, they take that to Donald Trump in 2015, the next year later with Bannon, with Miller, with sessions to say, hey, Donald Trump, you know, you can run on a platform of trade and immigration. And this is going to be how you're going to be able to win the election. you're going to be able to capture this. And so it was a strategy that Stephen Miller,

Stephen Ben, and others really brought to Donald Trump to say, this is how we can actually win an election. And ever since, that I think, you know, folks probably are very well aware, unfortunately, of how Donald Trump won in the first administration really was pushing out his anti-immigrant agenda and then saw a massive backlash in 2018 when he started to separate families,

put children in government, cages and Donald Trump, who is very aware of public opinion, started to pull back a little bit and started to not run as fast with the Stephen Miller agenda. Then after losing in 20, there was a coordinated effort by Stephen Miller, by people like Charlie Kirk, by others on the radical nationalist right to mainstream this idea of a migrant invasion. This is connected to the Great Replacement Theory. Folks maybe remember this is what was happening in the streets in Charlottesville during the United the right. The Jews will not replace us. You will not replace us. So Stephen Mill and others try to take that from the street

protests of white nationalists into the mainstream of the Republican Party to be able to say, actually the problem that we have isn't that our immigrants are neighbors who lack a pathway to status. Actually, they're invaders. They're a legitimate invading army, and we should treat them as such. And so over the four years from 2020 until 2024, there was a coordinated effort to mainstream that idea that says, actually, we should talk about immigration as an invasion through their different conferences, through different speeches, through political ads, to normalize that language overall. To get where we're at today, which is that the Stephen Miller agenda is that they are treating our immigrant neighbors like they are a legitimate military-style invasion.

That's why they can deploy secret police onto the streets that are masked up to snatch people off the sidewalk. That is why they want to deploy military assets to round up folks in the communities. That is why they want to create alligator alcatraz and or suspend due process, deport the people to prisons in El Salvador. It's because they are treating our immigrant neighbors as they were if they were a legitimate military invasion. And I think if we were to buy that lie, that white nationalist great replacement theory lie, well, some of their strategy then makes sense. it's logical. If, as we can see in Ukraine, if there's actually a military invasion into the country, a military response makes logical sense. But what Stephen Miller and these others are doing as they're trying to categorize our immigrant neighbors as a really legitimate invading force,

and that is actually, it seems absurd, but that is the straight-faced argument that is in the executive orders that the administration has put out throughout this year around immigration. They keep using this language of invasion very intentionally for that reason. I think that's something that we've lost sight of over the last several years. There was a time when Republicans could be very pro-immigrant. And there were politicians like Ronald Reagan and Lindsey Graham and the Gang of Eight bipartisan group that focused on that immigration reform piece of legislation. But there was a time when you could be a Republican and support immigrants.

You can't do that anymore. And that's the result of a very concerted effort of a very small group of special interest, public opinion, experts who tried to move that idea of mass deportation, mass indiscriminate deportation into the mainstream. Can you talk a little bit about how they did that? Yeah, I mean, I think it was, it didn't happen overnight. It wasn't like a snap of a fingers, right? And I think what we can see is that there is an escalation of rhetoric and a competition inside of Republican primaries over the last several years about competing with one another to see who can escalate their anti-immigrant rhetoric more and more. That's why I started even with that primary back with Eric Cantor is, is that for particular parts of this interest, group, they have fought it out inside of Republican primaries to put pressure there to say, actually, if you want our votes, if you want us to knock doors, if you want this sort of mobilization, then we're actually going to need you to escalate your rhetoric on anti-immigrant ideas. And so, you know, we probably, folks probably remember very specifically that

they talked a lot about during the Biden administration about a Biden border crisis. And we can think about the language of crisis as being, you know, a serious level of concern. But over the set of the years, they escalated from a sense of crisis because every Republican is saying in the primary, hey, there's a Biden border crisis at the border. Well, how do I differentiate myself? Well, I'm actually going to take the next step and the next level to start using the invasion rhetoric. So we can think about some very specific moments where in 2020, the very beginning of 2022, Charlie Kirk, the leader of Turning Points USA, a massive influence inside of the MAGA movement. It got on the CPAC stage and laid out a litmus test for Republicans

there in February of 2022 that says you can't no longer call it a border crisis. You need to start calling it an invasion. And you have other people like Lindsay Graham, who in that same summer, starts to, who was supporting the 2013 immigration bill, is now in 2022 using the language of invasion as well. So it's really sending this signal to other Republicans that actually this is how we're going to start to talk about these ideas. Then you have folks like Tom Holman and others who were outside of the government at the time that were putting pressure in Texas in 2022 to on Governor Greg Abbott to declare an invasion, to assert underneath the Constitution to say that actually Texas was being invaded by immigrants and that they were going to make

that legal assertion and be able to create the razor wire along the border to put those water buoys in the water to use and to deport, to use the local officials to deport immigrants, even though that is the federal law. So Tom Holman and others were pressuring Texas Governor Greg Abbott to engage in that rhetoric, to engage in it as an official capacity. He complied and did so. It did something similar in Arizona. And so I think what we can see is how did this stuff get mainstreamed? This white nationalist conspiracy theory is one, about a set of political rhetoric, and two, about internal pressures, particularly out of Texas, Florida, and Arizona for those states to engage in that rhetoric.

And then what we see over 22 and 24 is hundreds of millions of dollars in political ads that again start to push out these ideas to the general public. So there's an internal conversation both about the rhetoric itself and an external one that is pushing this rhetoric out to the general public and says, actually, we can all start talking about this as an invasion as being something normal. The fact that so much money was spent on promoting mass deportation last election cycle and so many things have occurred as a result of this analysis that the 2024 election was a referendum on immigration and the fact that as a result of that analysis, we are sending Marines into Los Angeles. sending the National Guard into California, we're doing all of these really extreme things. We're spending billions of dollars now on projects like Alligator, Alcatraz.

And the fact is, is that the American public really is not moving on this, like I think a lot of the Republican strategists had hoped. Going back to the 2024 election, there were countless Trump rallies. where Trump supporters were holding little signs that said mass deportation. I mean, it was a key piece of their election agenda. And I think a lot of people fell for the talking points that they heard from Donald Trump, not necessarily from Stephen Miller and others. You really had to listen closely to know exactly what the plan was. But I do think there were a lot of voters that heard the general rhetoric, supported the general idea that you were hearing from Donald Trump.

But now that they see the plan in action, they don't like it. And I think that's what we're seeing in some of these polls that are showing public opinion is slipping for the mass deportation agenda. Is that what you see when you look at these polls? Yeah, no, I think I think that's exactly right, man. I think, you know, what, there was a billion dollar campaign and there was over a billion dollars spent just on anti-immigrant ads just by Republicans in 2024. And just as a comparison, there was $500 million, so half as much was spent on sports betting ads over that same period. So that folks can relate to how often they were seeing an ad for draft kings or whatever.

There was twice as many of the money spent on sports gambling as there was on anti-immigrant ads last year. So a massive propaganda campaign that said that there were, there was this foreign other. There were these immigrants that were new, that were stealing jobs, bankrupting Medicaid, threatening our families and our security with crime. And then, you know, folks reacted to say, oh, yeah, there's a real problem here. You know, like, we don't, we don't want crime. We don't want folks that are committing murders in our streets. So, yeah, sure, like, we should solve that problem.

then what we see when Donald Trump gets elected, Miller's agenda is implemented is that they're starting to go after folks' neighbors. And they're like, no, no, no, that's not the immigrant I know. I was talking about these other immigrants. The immigrants that I know, those are hardworking folks who are paying their taxes, who are just trying to get by just like me. I'm shocked and surprised that you're coming after the folks that I know, because that's not who you were talking about beforehand. And I think that's the real disconnect that people are

starting to see is that Stephen Miller makes no distinguishing from mothers and murderers. For him, everybody is an invader. Everybody is an existential threat to this country. And I think for most Americans, they are, they like their immigrant neighbors. They like their immigrant coworkers that many of them are in that family. And so I think it's really important for folks as they're starting to see that, oh, actually, you're coming after the people I care about the people I know when you told me you were going to go after criminals. And I think where we can see that disconnect is that that has actually been the policy of the federal government for some time. It was the policy under the Joe Biden administration was to prioritize going after

immigrants who committed crimes, especially violent crimes. And that is what people support and continue to support. But when they actually see the reality of Stephen Miller's rhetoric, of Donald Trump's rhetoric around immigrants, they're, they are shocked because that's not the immigrants that they know. I would like to dive into some of the specifics on what we're seeing with the polling. And I think one of the best polls that I saw was just recently from CBS News. So I'm going to play a quick clip from CBS News to hear more about the poll they just ran on Trump's mass deportation agenda. Welcome back. A new CBS News poll. Find support for President Trump's mass deportation program is, in a word, eroding. In February 59% of Americans, we surveyed, backed it. That number has declined by 10 points. This will not surprise you. Support among Trump's MAGA base, however, remains very strong. CBS News, executive director of elections and surveys, your friend in mine, Anthony Salvanto, joins me now. Anthony, walk us through. What do we know? How you doing, Major? Look, let me put some of that partial, not won't surprise you stuff.

underneath what you just said. Because, yeah, you do want to show this nine and ten Republicans who support the program and continue to. The movement that you described there at the top has come more from independence. And here's the why part of it. Number one is take a look at this. People saying, now a slight majority saying, that they think the administration is trying to deport more people than they had expected it to. That's number one. And then let me show you this. It's the who they think the administration is prioritizing for deportation. Increasingly, they think the administration is not prioritizing people who are dangerous criminals. Those two things together are part of explaining that decline, even while, as you say, that base remains solid, major.

Our surveys try to capture an evolving conversation in America about a hot topic, and immigration is undisputably a hot topic. how is the American conversation evolving or shifting in any way when it comes to detention facilities and how those in them are being treated by the Trump administration? So two things on that. One is we also see strong Republican support, but we see a lot of opposition from independence, certainly from Democrats, on the way the Trump administration is using detention facilities, right? So that's number one. Now that nets out to a net negative, and that's part and parcel of that decline that we mentioned earlier. The other part of this, though, I want to show you is we asked if Hispanic Americans were being subject to more, fewer searches than everyone

else. You see big numbers say that they're subject to more. The part of that that explains this is overwhelmingly, then people think that's unfair, and we've seen some declines. We've seen declines in support for the president among Hispanic Americans. You may recall, he made gains with Hispanics during the election. So that difference there, not just part of the decline, but also a political one that we're going to have to watch, Major. With the data and analysis, cogent as always, Anthony Salvato, my thanks to you, sir. When you go back and look at what Donald Trump was saying during the election, he really was focusing on that key phrase of dangerous criminals. Everything he was saying about deportation

was focusing on dangerous criminals. So I'm not that surprised. that some people didn't see this coming because if they were just listening to what Donald Trump was saying at their rallies, they really, I don't think we're expecting what we're seeing now. But for people like you and I who have followed this issue very closely, we've been following Stephen Miller and Chris Kobach and the other white nationalists, we really knew that this was their plan all along. Are you surprised to see this actually playing out? Yeah, no, not at all. I mean, I think, like, if you were to listen to Stephen Miller, right, he's doing exactly what they had planned and set out to do. Like, some of that was in the Pride of 2025, but also this was part of Stephen Miller's agenda from day from day one.

And I, but I do think there is this disconnect, right, where there was an intentional effort from, and that continues to this day where they keep talking about even Tom Holman will say, we're going after the worst first. And so they understand that there is support for going after and there being punishments for people who commit crimes. I mean, that's not surprising that there's large swathes of the American public that say if you commit a crime, there should be a punishment to that. And I think that's what folks are reacting to and saying, hey, look, if what the, the billion-dollar campaign says is true is that there is this contingent of immigrants who are committing crimes, well, they should be punished for those crimes. And that makes sense. But actually, what we really do see is that the intent overall is because the folks that do, that small bucket of immigrants who do commit crimes is a very tiny bucket. But Stephen Miller wants to go at, and what they were talking about is deporting 10 to 20 to 30 million people. When we get to that level and scale, what is very clear is that they're going to go, that they're going to always go after mothers.

And I think what we can see is like even the CBS poll, which was kind of the high watermark back in 2024, they had 63 or 62 percent support for mass deportation. But today, a year later, and after six months of implementation of this very policy, we see a 13-point decrease in support. As the American people start to realize and understand what that mass deportation actually means, it actually means going after mothers, it means going after their neighbors, and they are not in support of that policy. And I think we can think about, I think there is a frustration to it, but it's not surprising, is that the New York Times did a poll in October of 20, 24 and found that 30% of the public said that they didn't believe that they were, Donald Trump was actually going to deport all undocumented immigrants. Like there was a, there was a sense that, oh, this is just campaign rhetoric. He doesn't actually really mean this, that this isn't something that that we should be too

concerned about. And there was an effort to kind of foster that in other places as well, particularly with other swing voters and others to say, don't worry, it's just rhetoric. he won't actually go after folks. But as we see, as Stephen Miller is empowered, that's exactly what they're going, that's exactly what they are doing, deporting U.S. citizen children, going after mothers, going after neighbors, going after folks who are just trying to have their slice of the American dream, but lack a pathway to legal status.

I do want to talk a little bit more about the good news in what we're seeing, but I don't want to gloss over a lot of the really, really bad news. It does seem like this administration is on track to only make things worse. And if you look at the legislation that they just passed, they just got $170 billion for additional immigration enforcement activity. You know, I work in economic development for small towns and rural communities. I cannot imagine getting $170 billion for rural economic development, and they're getting that money for immigration enforcement when they're already doing things at such a crazy level. So it does seem crazy to me that this money was just allocated, and it feels like things

are going to get pretty bad. Yeah, I mean, I think there is, like, in that $170 billion, right, there is, I think, $46 million that is just for increased in private detention facilities. And so you create this profit incentive. of which that you're giving a private prison company billions of dollars to say that we actually need to fill these beds and that there is a profit motive for rounding up people in filling those beds for deportations and holding them for deportations. At some point, you don't build alligator alcatraz unless you intend to fill it. And when you need to fill those beds, well, of course

they're going to start to go after farm workers, mothers, our neighbors, our coworkers, folks that are living here. And as we've already seen from this administration, is that it's not that they're just going after people who currently lack legal status. They are removing folks that have protections like temporary protected status. They are going after people with green cards and trying to vote green cards. And they're even going after birthright citizenship to under. mind future American citizens and trying to steal their citizenship away from them.

And so I think we can see the really dangerous and escalation part of this is that where it starts, right, with $170 billion, as you're saying, that's a lot of money to round up our neighbors, to keep them in detention. And that money is earmarked. It's going to be spent. And they are going to be eager to be able to do that. I mean, if we can look at that same bill and see like almost a dollar to dollar match between ending snap benefits. So taking away the ability for hungry kids and families to be able to eat, to put that into rounding up and harassing our neighbors. And very quickly, as we're already seeing in that poll, and I think people's lived experiences are, is you put the pressure on law enforcement officials to say,

you've got to meet these numbers. You've got to meet these numbers to of arrests. Well, it's no surprise that they're going to start engaging in racial profiling to be able to find that. And yes, it's going to primarily start with Latino communities, but it's also going to start to go to Asian American communities, black American communities very quickly on who is going to be suspected of not being a quote unquote a real American. And the kind of downstream consequences that we're going see from this, I think, are really concerning. But I think what we can also see on those polls is very much that the American people are, they're not buying it. They're not, they're not, they're not buying what Stephen Miller is selling. And they're actually having a significant

backlash to that agenda. I mean, it's no question that the administration knows that these policies are unpopular. I mean, just look at the immigration enforcement agents. They're masking themselves. And if these were really, really popular policies, they would not be masking themselves. They know this is unpopular. They know the American people are not with them. And I think that's why they're covering their faces. And frankly, I don't blame them. But I do think it's going to be a really challenging couple of months because I do think things are positioned to get worse and not better. But I really do feel like we need to take a moment and just recognize that the majority of Americans are with us. The majority of Americans

see that this is crazy. And I think there's going to be a real opportunity here for people to realize that this is not what they voted for. And I think that's what we're already seeing. Yeah, no, and I definitely think that's the case. And I've been looking into a lot of different polls. It's not just the CBS one that that we showed here, right? There is actually a consistent across the different polls that we're seeing disapproval of Donald Trump on immigration, even though that was his high watermark, we're seeing him below majorities on that front. If you look into the actual other policies as well, even beyond mass deportation, we're seeing a widespread rejection of those policy ideas.

And so I think what that can tell us, right, is that it should give us confidence, both for advocates and politicians to engage on this issue. because what we also saw in that polling right is that 90% of Republicans are still on board and that there is incentives inside of the Republican Party because those interest groups have captured the Republican Party that they are not going to stop, that there is going to be that they are going to continue this effort, they're not going to pull their foot off the gas. And even if some do, there's going to be that tension still existing inside the Republican

party and immigration is going to be a centerpiece of the debate. And so we can't afford to ignore it, hoping that this will go away or to just even think that the cruelty alone is going to be enough. The American people are reacting to the cruelty. They are upset by the cruelty, but they also need to hear a different version. And I think what we can hear and why we've seen some of this support is, and I try to understand some of the disconnect is, is that we can think about J.D. Vance, who throughout the last campaign was talking a lot about housing prices, and they were talking about crime, right? That people are concerned about being able to make ends meet, to be able to afford a house, to live in a safe neighborhood, to feel like they belong in the

community. Those are real anxieties that I think most of us share. The Republicans and Stephen Miller are being able to put forward an idea that says actually deport your immigrant neighbor, that's the solution to increase wages, keep our community safe. And that's a lie. And I think there's a real opportunity for us to lean in here to say actually pushing down our immigrant neighbor to try to get ahead is not the way we're going to be able to move forward. Actually, by standing together to demand actually that working people are able to get more together, like that is how we're going to win. And I think it's actually really important to think

about that we've had immigration policies that have not had nearly enough worker protection. But that worker protection also includes for immigrant workers and native-born workers alike. And if there is one group of working people, whether those are in the farms or whether those in our home and hospitalities, that can be exploited by bad employers, that's what's bad for working people. And so actually there is a different way to kind of lean into this moment that says actually we support our immigrant neighbors and because we want our immigrant neighbors to have status so that we can all do better together because they are part of this American fabric. And so I think actually if I were to give a very specific advice to politicians, it would be to name the harm

that Stephen Miller's agenda is doing and have the confidence that it is unpopular, but also speak to the real anxieties that people are feeling around housing, education, health care, safety concerns, not with a, hey, we need to secure the border or have some very minutia immigration policy, but to actually talk about real policies that will improve people's lives that does not throw immigrants under the bus as the solution. Actually, that brings them along as part of a revitalization of our democratic process, particularly at the moment that, we're seeing immigrants on the other side being weaponized for authoritarian ends. How do we create a different version that says actually immigrants are how we revitalize our democracy

together? I think that's a bigger story, but I think one that the American people in the polling in the data show me that they are interested in hearing. That different version, that is a stark contrast to what they're seeing played out in the streets, what they're seeing their neighbors suffer through. I've been really excited to see just who's out there speaking out in support of immigrants. And I think the labor unions have just been fantastic. There are so many labor unions that have been speaking out in support of their immigrant members. And I think that's a really important thing to see, especially as we are seeing this new populist moment in the United States where there is a specific sect of Tucker Carlson type populists who claim that they support

working people and claim that they want to hold billionaires accountable, but then they just turn around and punch down. And I think the difference between a real populist and a fake populist is that a real populist never punches down. They never go after the people with less power than them. They're always focused on the top. And so I think that we're seeing that right now. And I think the fact that so many unions are coming out in support of immigrants,

is really shifting a lot of the focus here. Before we go, what else are you watching? Yeah, I mean, I think just one of the thing to say is that not only is the private prison industry, but it is also large, big, massive tech industries as well, right, that are getting massive amounts of contracts to create that sort of surveillance, to track. And so we can see, right, that the really undermining of that kind of the Tucker Carlson, kind of Steve Bannon version of populism is that they promise to support, you know, real Americans and working class Americans. And what do they actually deliver is they deliver massive boons and taxpayer contracts to private prisons and massive tech firms and to cut Medicaid, to cut the real services that people need

underneath the lie that it's immigrants who are bankrupting that system, even though that they are contributing to it. And so I think what has been made very plain and laid bare is in this big bill is about that's what the populist agenda from the right actually leads to. Like that, we're going to get more of that. And I think there's a real opportunity here in the moment to lean into what I think Donald Trump got right on some piece, which is that he told people what they felt, which is that it's hard out here. People are struggling. And Right. And they have been struggling. And that our democratic process has not been working, has not been delivering and solving the real problems facing Americans, whether that be the fentanyl crisis, the lack of wages, the rising health care costs. The system has not been delivering for people in the way that they need it to. They offer deport our neighbors as a false solution. And I think there's a real opportunity to actually, for Democrats and others and other advocates,

to say there's a different solution here that recognizes that things are not working for people, but we need a different solution. And that isn't giving up on democracy. It's actually doubling down on it and revitalizing it. Absolutely. Well, Zach Mueller, thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate you talking to us. And for everybody here at this universe, thanks for tuning in. I'm Matt Hildreth.