Weights and Plates Podcast - Ep. 117 - Built Different: What Dogs Can Teach Us About Strength, Genetics & Drive

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

What do training a Belgian Malinois and building a stronger human have in common? Turns out - a whole lot.On this episode of Strong and Sleek, Robert Santana sits down with longtime friend, dog-training mentor, and Canine Defense owner George Daniolos for a wide-ranging conversation about working dogs, lifting weights, genetics, coaching, physical performance, and why getting the most out of someone—or something—means understanding what you're actually working with.Robert and George explore the striking parallels between canine training and strength training: natural drive versus learned skill, genetics versus effort, knowing when to apply more stress, and recognizing when pushing harder can actually make performance worse. As Robert has learned training both humans and dogs, different individuals are capable of different things—and great coaching isn't about forcing everyone through the same program.They also get into working and protection dogs, the unique intensity of the Belgian Malinois, bite work, injury and fear, testosterone and performance, the difference between talent and technique, and why the best trainers learn as much from difficult cases as they do from gifted ones.Perhaps the biggest lesson? There are rules—and then there are all the exceptions you only learn through experience. Systems and science matter, but real expertise comes from knowing when the situation in front of you doesn't fit the flowchart.It's two hours of dogs, barbells, genetics, coaching, hard-earned experience, and plenty of unfiltered conversation about what it really takes to become stronger, smarter, and better at your craft.

Welcome back to the Strong and Sleek podcast. I am Robert Santana. I am your host joined by a special guest today. He's a very good friend of mine. As many of you know, a couple years back, a few years back, shit, I don't even remember. I was four years now? Yeah, four years. Yeah, it's been about six, but about four years back, I met this gentleman when I had an unruly dog that I couldn't figure out how to train.

and because I've trained humans for many years, as you know, I was determined to figure this out, and I hired this gentleman to solve my problem. This is my dog trainer, my dog training mentor, and my very good friend, the owner of K9 defense, George Danielos. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Robert. How's it going, man? Going great.

Thanks for having me out today. So I've been wanting to do this episode for quite some time because you didn't just, you know, there's a lot of overlap between training humans and training. canines. But also because you happen to be a very active person and your job is very active. But you're not just at work. Like a lot of guys are like, oh, I work labor all day. I don't need to work out, you know? I mean, your job is very physically laborious, but you are religious with working out. So for a long time, I thought you'd be a good fit for the show. And I wanted to talk about dogs, lifting, and whatever other random shit we come up with on this episode. And you're allowed to drop F-bombs here, too. All right, good. Good, because that happens. Yeah. So, kind of give us a background, man.

I know that you've, oh, I forgot to mention that you also are the proud owner of the best dive bar Mexican restaurant in Phoenix, right? I think so. Is that a good characterization? Yes, I think that's pretty good. Yeah, Mipatio, right? Mipatio Mexican food on 7th Avenue, Osborne. Yeah, so like myself, you had another business. Yes.

And then you became, what do you say, a fucked up dog person? Yes, yes. Yeah, it was kind of a weird transition. The business got me able to afford to do the hobby I wanted to do, which is dogs and working dogs and got me really able to travel and fulfill the passion I had for working with these dogs. And over time, I started to phase myself out of the rest. restaurant and more into the dog side. And, you know, thank God I'm blessed to be able to do what I do. Yeah. Let's take it back even further, man, because like all this shit's coming back to me as I'm talking to. You're also a big food guy, too. I am. Yeah. And half of this show has always been

about food. This used to be the weights and plates podcast. So I think we're going to talk about a lot of shit today. So, all right. Let's go back to the beginning, you know, were you an active child? Like, when did you start doing physically demanding things? When did your interest in food start? kind of go there. Well, that's deep. I got to really go back. So as a child, I was very active in martial arts from a young age. And then as I got a little bit older, I got into wrestling in high school. A good buddy of mine was a competitive amateur boxer at the time. So I started training with him. And what I found, you know, kind of how that evolved into the dog thing. is I think when you get into that mindset of like personal defense,

you kind of start to see that some of the things, and I'm sure this is a big overlap with weights, heavy lifting weights, is like technique is so important. Oh, yeah. It's not the biggest, and it's the same thing like with the, what really started to build my interest with the dogs. It's like it's not the biggest, strongest dog, right? It's the dog that has the desire and the will and the right drives

and then learns the technique in order to be effective. Yeah. And that was a, I think there's a big overlap. I see so many guys that get into, I'm talking specifically now about working dogs, protection dogs, dogs that bite on command. So many of those people have the overlap from some type of self-defense background,

some type of wrestling, something along those lines, because the mentality is very similar. Right. We always say in my world strong people are harder to kill and more useful in general. Yes. So that's kind of the area I came from. I wanted to get strong, useful, durable.

Yes. And I did a little bit of martial arts as a young kid, not as much as I wanted to. My mother wouldn't put me in the more dangerous schools. To this day, I wish he did. My father learned in Cuba, so he learned in a dangerous environment. Of course. Survival of the fittest. Yeah.

He did a lot of martial arts until he was 17 and moved here and then he got into weightlifting here and that was my exposure to it. Okay. But some quick definitions for the audience. I have a big fitness audience. They may not know what these things mean. I mean, I've heard some of these words thrown around. But, you know, we kind of differentiate dogs as pets or working dogs. So, yeah, like working dog pets, like just to find some things for the audience. So I think, you know, when we talk about pets, it's obviously what everyone has. what most people have in their household, a good companion that you start to form a relationship with. I'm big on training. It does nothing but improve the human canine communication system.

So that's what it comes down to is like I want to have a, even if it's just my pet, not the dog that has the more intense working drives that we see out, working for police, military, personal protection, security. but a lower level, like a dog that is just a good companion that you say, you know what, I want to communicate with this animal in a way that's more productive for this relationship. And it really, I've dealt with so many people over the years from the pet side of things that have this belief that if I train my dog, it's going to turn him into a robot or it's going to be hard on him as a dog. And it's like when you start training any dog, all it does is all it should do is enhance the spirit of the animal.

It should make the dog stronger in every way, more confident, more happy about interacting with humans. And that's one of the things to me. Like when we talk, now we get into the working dog side of things, now we're talking about dogs with more intense drives. So your pet dog might see a ball and might kind of want to chase it. And, you know, if you throw it into a dangerous environment, he's going to be like, whoa, hey, I like the ball, but I'm not going to kill myself for it. Whereas, you know, with our working dogs, you know, something like a ball, like it's a very dangerous tool to use. You know, I tell people like a ball is a very dangerous tool for a Malin Wah because they're all drive and very little self-preservation and, or at least genetically correct Malin Wah, or all drive and very little self-care.

So you have to be really careful with some of the things that, like, you can throw your ball for your pet. And, you know, it goes over the cliff and he's going to stop and be like, whoa, that's dangerous. Whereas you throw a ball over a cliff for genetically correct Malinwa, and it's gone. You're losing them, you know? So there's definitely an intensity, a difference, I guess, probably somewhat between, like, professional athletes and people that, you know, mess around a little bit as a hobby. in a sport. That's a good point. I was going to segue into that.

First, you know, people watching might not know what a Malin Wye is. They might say, oh, has that a German Shepherd? Right. We always make that joke when we're, you know, teaching neutrality stuff where we have a dog walking around and, you know, he'll try to distract mine. Hey, is that a German Shepherd? That's nice German Shepherd. And then, you know, sometimes we'll say, oh, it's nice corgi.

Yes. Do you want to explain this to the audience? Well, so the Malin-Wis is a Belgian. basically a Belgian Shepherd. So a herding dog from Belgium. Very, very, it's actually an older breed. The formation of the Belgian Malinwa was before the German Shepherd. Very similar dogs, you know, like every kind of sect of dog, you've seen an evolution throughout the breed.

And with the working dogs, one of the things that's really important is we breed the working dog off working traits. And every dog that gets popularized, we breed farther and farther away from working traits into aesthetics. And it's really been the downfall of many working breeds is they become popular from a movie or a show like the German Shepherd. If you look at a German Shepherd from the formation of the breed compared to the German Shepherd today, it's almost unrecognizable. And the Malinwa, for the most part, now, again, now this is. dog, the Malinwa, the Belgian Shepherd, the Malinua has become very popular from movies, and so you have more and more people breeding them for the wrong reasons, financial gain,

popularity, thinking it's cool without recognizing what a genetically correct Malinwa brings to the table and how it can, how you should only breed dogs to better the breed, never because I like this dog or I love this dog and let's see what we get because you have a male and I have a female and that has been the downfall of so many dog breeds and you see it like I was saying with the German Shepherd if you look at them

the beginning to now it's a very different dog I never asked you or anybody else in our circle this question but what does the why they call Melanwas and that shepherds from the oh well what does the word It really is. It's the city of Malins is where they... I didn't know that. Yeah. So it's from where they came from. Okay. And that's how the... And basically the Belgian Shepherd is there's three variations.

And the Malinois is by far the most popular and recognized at this point. What's the third? So there's the Lackona. Okay. And the Turvin. Oh, yeah. Somebody was talking about those the other day. Yeah. Yeah. This guy just got three Malinua puppies and... He had mentioned that and I'm like, shit, I should know this.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, but when it comes down to is, is there are Belgian shepherds versus like German shepherds or Dutch shepherds, basically herding dogs that have the drives that we look for for working, in working animals. So they're, they're very predatory. They have some strong defense instincts. They have some, uh, some of them really enjoy.

fighting over things and possessing things. And what you find in these dogs is really, to me, the beauty of the dog. When you see a high-powered, genetically correct Malawaw working, and when I say working, it can be something as simple as chasing something. The way that dog moves, the way it composes itself, the agility and the speed and the fast-twitch of that animal is just, it. It's beauty in motion. I would agree.

Yeah, and it's really something to appreciate. It's funny. When I got my first dog, I think I told you this, I was watching Tarantino's last film once upon a time in Hollywood. It literally is funny now that I've done this for a while. I've actually learned this pretty quick. He basically puts the dog on place when he walks into the trailer park that he lives in behind the movie theater.

This was a thing back when they had drive-ins in L.A. in the 1960s. That's when the movie takes place. Yeah. So he's got a little... I'm going to have to watch that movie again. You need to. I do. He has a trailer behind the driving, and he has this beautiful pit, Brandy the Pit.

She has an Instagram page, by the way, beautiful dog. And he walks in, she jumps on him, licks his face, which you would absolutely have a heart attack over, that he puts her on place. So for those of you aren't familiar with these terms, she puts them in a dedicated spot where it's to remain there until he releases the dog. I didn't know any of this. I never owned a dog before, and I didn't want a dog because I saw what was out on the street, a lot of unruly dogs. And I thought that's just how dogs were. So I'm like, I don't want to deal with that, right? Then I'm watching this movie.

This was back in summer of 19, and I'm like, okay, if these assholes in Hollywood can figure this out, I'm sure I can accomplish this. So got myself a bully a few months later, trained her to do the exact scene. and in the movie he's she starts whining when he's making the food and then he says something to the effect of what I say about that whining shit he's like I mean it he's like I will throw this shit in the trash and then he's like you understand and the dog barks at him right so like I redid the whole scene like if that dog hears the word understand she's going to bark at you but um I thought because the average pet owner will tell you all these pits are so high energy this that the other right. I thought I had a high energy dog, right? Yes. And then I got a German short-haired pointer. Okay. And it was a puppy, and I was in my Ph.D. And this dog, I was losing my mind. I didn't understand what I was looking at.

And I'm like, this is something else, man. Right. And I happen to run into you guys at, it used to be called the Europa. And over at Westworld, there's a fitness expo that happens every August. And I was there with three people competing in a meat, powerlifting meat. and one of my good friends, and she was a gym member, she's like, hey, she was getting a border collie a few months after. Like, hey, they got Malinwas over there.

Let's go over there. And like, I was familiar with the breed. The first dog trainer I hired was like, oh, that's my favorite, you know? Yeah. So I knew what it was. And I'm like, all right, let's go check it out. And then you guys were doing demos running dogs. And you had the clones out.

So these guys cloned a dog. So they had a couple clones out. And my good friend, your sales and marketing guy, Chris, so I'd love to get him on here someday. Yes. He's like, yeah, these dogs were cloned, man, and he tells me the price tag, and I'm like, holy shit. And my girlfriend at the time was mesmerized by, she's like, can we clone our pit? And then he's like, you have to spend this much.

He's like, let's go make a bunch of money. So I started talking to him, and at the time, because I had a pit, and it's funny with the pit, and Scott Stale, everybody wants to interact with her, right? Because people have all sorts of dogs here. It's a good dog culture. But outside of here, people get sketched out by a bully. Sure. You know? And I had an e-collar on her because I was using that to train her.

And so I asked Chris, I'm like, hey, dude, do they have something a little more discreet than this? Because e-collar on a pit bull sends a message out to people that it's dangerous. Might as well be wearing like a spiked muzzle. Exactly, exactly. And he's like, yeah, we got this one, but it's like four times the cost. And I'm like, I started thinking I ended up getting it, right? And ended up not using it on that dog because other things happened there. So my friend buys an even.

from him for the dog she's about to buy and then she sits on it though she picks up the dog from the breeder right and then he starts talking to me i have a puppy he capitalizes on this as he tends to do and i'm like yeah i probably need her train she's driving me out the fucking wall right yeah so i go in you know he's doing his little sales process and he's saying things that makes sense that we're now knowing now looking behind the curtain we're 100% true he's like this dog's already nervous and then in my head we're not friends yet i'm like yeah because i'm fucking yelling at her all the time probably. Yeah.

And she's like, you know, four months old. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm getting frustrated. And it's causing the dog to get anxious because dogs are more sensitive to emotion, right? Absolutely. And I have a lot of work to do because I'm trying to defend my dissertation. I have put hours into another dog. So if you teach me what to do, I'm going to do it.

Now that you've known me four years, that's actually true in this case. Yes, I was going to say that's, I've heard that a lot. And so have I. Yeah, and it's unfortunately, it's not always the case. But that's, you know, you became one of those weird dog guys. You stuck to what you said. I think that a lot of it comes back to your training background. Yeah, yeah.

And we'll dive into that. So I'm like, okay, I have a month before I have to defend my dissertation. So I leave the dog there. You guys are going to train it. You're going to teach me what to do. These guys deliver, thankfully. And I'll pick it up from there. And that's exactly what happened.

I got the dog back and I can hear a pin drop in my house. I'm like, what in the fuck? You know? But his trainer, Mallory, who was working with me at the time, she explained to me that the dog has a certain type of drive. It's a hunting dog. You know, it's a hunting breed. I learned that too. She's like, she's not a hunting dog yet until you train her to be a hunting dog.

She's a hunting breed. I could see her correcting you on that. This is like one of our first interactions. You know, she says that. I'm like, noted. Right? So I had a hunting breed people. Just because the dog can do it doesn't mean it's doing it, right? So I'm like, okay, noted.

She's like, you know, that's when I kind of learned, okay, the pit's like on for like 30 seconds and then cooked. You know, this pointer can go. If I let her outside right now, there's one of two things that will happen. She's going to point at something for an hour and not take her eyes off of it or nose off of it. Or she's going to find an escape route and try to get out of whatever she's confined to, whether it's a backyard, a front yard, a kennel, a living room. She's constantly trying to venture further. Genetics. Yeah, exactly. And when I took her to a hunting dog trainer, he said that she was well bred.

She found all the birds that he stashed in the different bushes. Wow. And he wanted to breed her. Yeah. So I had her at the house for six months, and then about eight months later, I'm like, I can't transfer this outside the house. And I know there's a process here. Then I started going back once a week, and here we are today, man.

I'm like there all the fucking time. Yeah. But the cool thing. It's been great. Yeah. It's been great. I appreciate that. Yeah.

I learned a lot. You know, I was just trying to get this dog to do obedience work. Yeah. You know, a dog that's bred to hunt, get away from you and find things to be more focused on you. And to your point, you can train any dog to do this for the most part. But to Mallory's point, she wants to find birds. Yes. There's some of that that's just innately there, right?

Of course. So it was a challenge. And, you know, I've had other pointers now, too, because I've had customers that hire me for dog training. And it's the same shit. It's the same shit every time. They want to go out. And now I know how to bring them in. Sure.

It also motivated me to try and teach her things that kind of feed into that a little bit more versus trying to get her to do things that don't. Right. And we still got to make those fucking odor pipes. Yes. But that was amazing. So one time we did a scent work with her where he was trying to build out this skill where they identify. if I were a cent is. And she was cooked after like 10 minutes.

That blew my mind because that dog has a lot of fucking energy. But that got her because she's already wanting to do that. Yep. And it's, you know, as you're learning the process, we're kind of manipulating drives. And it's mentally fatiguing. And you get some of these dogs where if you just work them physically, they'll go and go and go. But as soon as you start to add the mental aspect, that really is, it's benefit. I explain that too because think about us, if we do a bunch of computer work, we're fucking smoked.

Oh, yeah. If we do physical work, we're tired, but you can shake it off, you know, and do something else, right? So that was the other thing that was part of Chris's presentation. He's like, I can wear a dog out in 15 minutes. And I'm like, what? Yeah. So now, like, when somebody tells me, oh, I got this dog, it needs, like, hours of running. And it's not fair to the dog that I live in an apartment.

And it's just, no, dude. Right. So I learned a ton from these guys. And in that process, so he mentioned, like, most people say, oh, I'll be. put in the work, you know, if you just show me what to do. And most of the time, that probably doesn't happen. Same thing in the gym. They're like, you know, if you just tell me what to do, I'm going to work out hard. And, you know, it happens. And people say that show up most of the time. But to go that extra distance is what you said. Certain dogs have a much higher level of drive.

And I've seen that in humans. So that's a perfect segue to one of the main reasons. I thought this would be a good episode is watching different animals learn and overcome different problems. I've seen parallels with humans, you know. So I train a lot of the general population of people that aren't necessarily very athletic. I've gotten a lot of tech guys, a lot of engineers that have never lifted a weight before. In many cases, don't like a commercial gym environment for... Which is understandable. Yeah, totally understandable.

Guys like you and I tolerated it because we like to lift, you know, we like to do things. But these guys didn't play sports. Maybe they played video games. Maybe they were on a computer. Maybe they were playing, what's that... that game, Dungeons and Dragons, you know?

Like, I've gotten a lot of that audience over the years, and they're not very athletic. They're probably below average athleticism. They can't jump very high. And the expect, I've learned over the years to modulate the expectations

based on the person in front of me, which is very similar to what you've taught me with these dogs. Different people are capable of different things. But in the fitness industry, one of the problems is this idea that effort is the limiting factor to your success. 100% of the time. That's the message that's been sent, and you're probably familiar with this going back to the Joe Wheater muscle and fitness days of the 1980s. Yeah.

It's like, Arnold did this program. Do that program. You'll look like that. You know, 12 weeks to 20-inch arms. I can tell you that's bullshit. It's total bullshit. And you can appreciate this because that's like saying that you're going to get, you know, some low-dry foo-foo dog to do bite work. Right. And be dangerous, you know. Or I get the people that are like, my dog will protect me. He just knows. I'm like, it's, it's one, it's not even rational train of thought that a dog that's not trained to protect is going to, he might protect himself if he's cornered. But as far as like protecting a human and staying in a fight that's high stress and high stakes, it's just very, very, I don't want to say impossible, but very unlikely. We have dogs that have the correct genetics and the correct training that aren't capable of it. So I think, you know, it's probably very similar to, I know for me, I've felt like I've been doing the right training program.

And I'm like, why don't I look like Arnold? Right. Why can't I slam dunk of basketball? Like, why can't I grow to 6'5? Right, exactly. And I think you bring up a really good point is the genetic limitation. And that's one of the things we really try to solidify it with people. It's like, we'll get it all the time.

people come to us because they know we're in the police and protection dog kind of our specialty and our niche for now for many, many years. And they'll bring their, they get a Malinwa, they find on from who knows where, and they bring it in. They're like, it's a Malinwa. Of course it'll do protection. I'm like, if it was that easy, I'd just go out, like, you know, you know a lot about our buying trips when we go to Europe. We'll test 100 Malinwa, and maybe five or six of them will be excessive. for what we deem genetically correct for work. And so there's that big misconception of like, yeah,

if you just do these things, your dog, you know, if your dog, you just train your dog like this and it'll be fine. And, you know, just like for us, like I think you're getting to, it's like, there's certain limitations that no matter what, like, you know, the way God put us out here, the genetics, whatever it is,

you can be the best you you can be. Right. Exactly. That's what it comes down to. And it's like, we want to make the best dog. It doesn't mean that it's going to be the high-level dog, but we'll make this dog the best dog it can be with what it brings to the table. And that's what we've been doing with mine, essentially.

Yeah. It's funny. You know, people say, oh, it's a Malinwa, of course. Right. It'll protect, right? Can you imagine if somebody said that about a person? Like, outrage, man. You said, oh, of course, this person's whatever, you know.

It's a male. It's a big male. Of course, he's going to protect. Right. And I've had, dude, I've had guys that were like, I'm thinking of some examples that were mid 200 pounds, big dudes, and they can't squat 300. Right. You know, and you would think by looking at them by sheer size, because sheer size does help. I talk about it on this show. You know, when you're bigger, it changes your center of mass, whether it's fat or muscle. You know, your center of mass changes. There's mechanical advantages there, but you have to build muscle mass with that. because there's a contractile component of it too. Then there's the central nervous system component too.

Can you coordinate these movements effectively? For a lot of people, like the demographic I'm talking about, a lot of its technique, like teaching these guys how to squat and deadlift properly. Like I got you into a good position the first day, you know? No problem. You played football, right? No. No, I was a wrestler.

Ressler, okay. For some of your friends played football. I assumed that you played with them. No, I didn't. Yeah, the guys that came to the kennel that day. No, those guys are monsters. Yeah, that was huge. But he was worried about the dog.

That was funny. Remember that? Remember he flattened him? Yeah, yeah. This guy was like, what, six, five? Yeah. Well, over 200 pounds. No, well, he...

Was he over three? Yeah, he was three. He was an offensive lineman. Yeah. In college for... Yeah. He was on a full ride. Like, he was a great athlete for a big dude.

And... But it's funny of that situation. Yes. The same thing we're talking about, right? Everything changes. Yeah. And the context changes. Absolutely.

He'll get sack. by a bunch of guys, but if there's a little 75-pound dog about to bite him in a bite suit, that's different. Oh, man, man. And, you know, you put him against guys, big dudes, he stays on his feet. We sent that dog on him, it flattened him. Yeah. Took him down right away.

It's crazy, man. Yeah. And he was mad at me. He said, I left the dog on him too long. His old arm was bruised up. He sent him, we put, I think we put the pictures on social media afterwards. I know at least I have him, where he was black and blue all the way through his visip for a long time, which happens.

And it's funny because, like, if I just saw that guy and say a word, I'm like, and I knew that he played football and all that, like, oh, for sure, he's like, and fuck yeah, let's do it. It was quite the opposite. So, like, context matters, you know. And, you know, if you ever see this, we're talking about you. But it's a point I have to make to people, you know, because I, get guys they want, I want to get, you know, huge arms or whatever.

And then they're like skinny to begin with. Right. You know, it's like, okay, well, you can train. They'll get bigger than they were. You could take steroids, they'll get even bigger. You could take more steroids. They'll get even bigger. But at some point, that's going to stop.

You're going to max out. You know, and, you know, people think drugs are the easy button. You know, I'm not a steroid show. You know, that's not what we do here. We try to get people lifting. I'm not against that. I'm on testosterone. and I've talked about it on a previous episode.

And I got on it this year, so I'm 42. You know, I've never been one to, and it goes back to what we're talking about, right? Like, if I was a genetic outlier that was lifting a shitload of weight without anything in the first, you know, few years of training when I was in my teens and early 20s, fuck yeah, I'd get on drugs because you only peak once in life, right? And if there's money and opportunities and the competitive benefit, like, I'm going to compete on the world state.

and maybe place top five, then you've got to do everything you got to do. And most of these guys are on drugs. You know, whether they admit it or not, it depends on the league. You know, there's untested powerlifting where they're a lot more freer with it.

They'll admit that they're on it. It's assumed that they're on it. It's not tested. But in the Olympics, most of those fuckers are on it, and they can't talk about it for legal reasons. Sure. And so, yeah.

It's funny because I feel like people that don't know what you're talking, like you talk to, you know, the general public, like, oh, he's like that because he does steroids. I'm like, well, you could do steroids all day. You're not going to look like that. You're not going to.

Like, he's like that because he works his ass off. Yeah. And adds to like some other components, right? Like how testosterone, whatever it is. Like you don't get that type of physique or strength or without hard work. Of course, because there's plenty of older men on testosterone that aren't muscular because they're just on testosterone because they want more boners. Sure.

They are more muscular than before because testosterone is a growth stimulus, but if you're talking about a big muscular physique, you have to lift with it, you know, and then how much you're going to get out of that depends on your genetics. You can't inject your way out of shitty genetics. You can't train your way out of shitty genetics. You can't eat your way out of them. All of those things make things better. They move the needle, but, you know, there's no genetic steroids or my buddy RIP. I talk about him a lot on the podcast. He says there are no technique steroids.

That's why I am still impressed with the late 90s MLB players because they had to be great athletes to begin with to do what the hell they were trying to do, you know? You had to be Mark McGuire for the steroids to allow Mark McGuire to hit all those home runs. You had to be Barry Bonds to do that. You don't think the other guys were loading up on shit too? Of course.

You know, so yeah, eventually at that highest level it becomes a drug contest, but they're all taking a lot of the same shit and only one of them is getting that response. Right. So you just kind of dial this down, right? You have a bunch of men lifting weights. Some of them swell up really easy. And you can kind of tell by look, just like you look at puppies.

You can kind of tell which ones are probably going somewhere. You could tell which humans are. You know, you get these guys, they look skinny, but their muscles are like popping out, their skin's tight to the muscle, but they look skinny. They're like 16, 17. They go in the weight room and it looks like they just took steroids and they get accused of it right away, right? Yeah. And if you're in this business long enough, you can tell which ones they are.

My stepbrother was one of them. He was skinny in high school. He played football when he was a sophomore. And he looked like a mini bodybuilder. You know, he never took roids. But like everything filled out. Everything was tight. He had veins all over his body.

Yeah. And he was lazy. He would just go in, do some curls, you know, do some legs, you know, do a few bench presses. And he didn't have to really work hard at all. He'd make the workouts hard, but he wasn't like trying to push the envelope, you know. Pisses you off, doesn't it? Yeah. And then now he wants to do.

wants to be skinny. Actually, I haven't talked to him now. A few years back, he wanted to be skinny. I don't know where he's at now. But this point has been missed, and we blame Mr. Weeder a lot for this. Okay. You know what Joe Weeder is? Yeah, yeah.

All those magazines said. I had a Weeder weight bench. Yeah, I figured you know. You've been in gyms for longer than I have. But all those magazines, muscle and fitness, men's health, muscular development, flex, I think back in the day with Strength and Health, a Wheater publication, maybe not. But all of them would say supplements and workout and diet,

and then you get the body of these champions, you know? Right. And then you'd get actors later in the 2000s that would say, oh, I just, like, I think of Edward Norton in American History X. It's funny, I watch it now. I'm like, he actually wasn't that big. Maybe he was telling the truth.

But, like, it may be, because we talk about this phenomenon called the novice effect. And you see it with any... Yes, you talk to me about it. Yeah. skill like oh you use me with the dogs right remember when you first put me in a suit yes i was just kind of getting it on accident right and then there came a point where i started having some mishaps you know i got a piece of my ear taking off yes and there were shit before that

too like all of a sudden it wasn't easy anymore and it's either turn your thinking cap on and troubleshoot this or this isn't for me fuck this right you know i chose the first one i'm still I've worked through it quite a bit this year. But that's just who I am with everything I do. You know, if I'm committed to learning something, I got to troubleshoot it. But then I've also learned that I've got to set boundaries because I'm only going to go so far in certain things.

Sure. And you just kind of know, you know. But I think about that, the novice effect, right? So like when you were teaching me that new skill, it was a lot of fun. Things were getting fast rapidly. Yes. And then you reached that point for lifting,

it's about three to nine months. For a younger guy, it's closer to nine months. for an older guy, it's closer to three months, where you kind of hit this wall, and now you have to actually do things with intent and be a little bit more. You have to worry about more variables. So with lifting, now the diet matters more.

Now the sleep matters more. Now you have to gain and lose weight, right? Now you have to manipulate programming variables and make them a little more complex. Like all those other things start to matter versus when you first start, you can do anything and you're going to improve. Yes.

You know, playing the guitar, same shit, playing the piano, skill. Like there's this, there's this phenomenon that we call the novice effect or some people call it the honeymoon phase. Okay. Everything's easy when it's new. Yep. And then it's not. Right. So I've seen that too. Like when I took that in the ear, then I started getting involuntarily apprehensive. Like I was very conflicted, man. Like, well, hey, like, I'm pissed off up, I'm pissed off up here, but my body's doing this. And I'm like, fuck pussy. Why are you fucking flinching? And I'm not talking to him about any of this, by the way. This is all in my head.

Yes. And I had to learn to work through that. I'm like, either you work through or you walk away, dude, you know? Yeah. But. Because that's where you get hurt more. Exactly. You know, when you start to get worried.

And it's impossible for us not to. Once you get an injury, you know, especially you're dealing with dogs that are, they're coming in with the intent to hurt you. Yeah. They're coming in with bad intentions. Yeah. And we're rewarding that. Yes.

And that's what we're trying to create, right? We're trying to raise levels of anger. We're, you know, our job, and not to go off into another decoy tangent, but the decoy, the whole job of a good decoy is to train the dog to fight a human, right? And there's no other, there's no, like in many, many other skill sets with dogs, like the trainer's important, the handler's important. And all those things play a role, but the only, the only person responsible for teaching a dog how to get to its highest life. level, how to raise its threshold, deal with more stress, deal with more pressure is the decoy. And so that's essentially what we're doing. You're out there with the intention of making this dog stronger and more powerful when he's in a fight. And it's a beautiful thing. It's really,

it is by far the most important skill in raising a dog that's going to go out and bite somebody for its task because they're put in very, very dangerous situations. And if we don't prepare them, if you don't have good decoys that can get into the site, into the dog's head and develop the dog psychologically for warfare, it's going to fail. And unfortunately, if a dog fails, it's going to get a human hurt. And it's a human that's there with good intentions, trying to protect public. in many ways. So the decoy is such a critical piece.

And now that you're learning that, I think, and anytime you get an injury from, like a dog bites you in the wrong area or you don't have any safety equipment on and you get bit, it's impossible. You know, we have humans, one of the, you know, one of the big values of dogs in law enforcement is they can diffuse,

so many situations. You know, you, I've had, you know, you hear about these calls. We look at body cam footage, and you can apply all these types of less lethal force, lethal force, and it's not always going to diffuse the situation. The thing about the dog and, you know, psychologically, some of the theory behind it is that we still have an inherent fear of getting eaten by animals. And the dog brings that in right away, you know, and it's, you're not going to reason with it. You're not going to talk about. Once the dog is going, it's going.

Yeah. And so it's interesting that when it happens to us is the decoys, the ones that are supposed to bring out the most anger and intensity from the dog and teach you how to fight a human. When we get hurt doing those things, it hurts us psychologically, too, because then we start to tense up and. I'm sure this is true in the lifting field is like, oh yeah. If my head is not right, I'm going to get hurt. If I'm going for a big lift and I'm, again, I don't know your mindset on it, but I would think.

No, I've had that talk with many people. Okay. Continue. You know, if you're stressed and you're already in your head and you're going to do something that's really physically exerting, you're more likely to get injured or fail in a way. And I think the same thing happens when you get hurt. and I don't mean just the hurt from the pressure from the bites like you expect that it should be

part of what you're doing you know when you're dealing with dogs at bike it's inherently dangerous like you you kind of you come into it with like yeah this is going to hurt but there's going to be some interaction here it's going to benefit the dog at some point but when we get injured doing it it definitely it throws us off and now the next time you're out like you're more stressed and you flinch and you do things that that can create more injuries going forward. Are you listening? Yeah, I think there's a lot of interesting overlaps.

Yeah. When I was younger, I would lift weights, and I thought that I was advancing. So anytime I'd read a magazine about a program back, oh, I'm advanced, just because I was showing up to the gym all the time. Sure. You know? And then I learned through my rabbit hole as a strength trainee and a strength coach that I'm not even close, dude.

I was just a novice that hadn't finished the end of his novice experience, or what we call the novice linear progression. And we run into that a lot. So I would always brag about how I never got hurt, you know. Okay. Yeah, I probably bragged about it. I'm like, oh, I never got an injury because I thought it was so smart, you know. Right. Because I was reading, you know.

So the problem with. people today in the age of the internet, especially people my age and younger, is we consume a lot of content, you know? Yeah. And I read a lot. I think now it's more watching and listening, but I used to read a lot of muscle magazines, textbooks, and then later on it morphed into the internet and YouTube and videos like that. I didn't really get into the YouTube stuff. I read most of what I've learned. Okay. Except dog stuff. I learned that on the field. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was determined to learn something another way. because the problem is when you read and only read and don't do. I'm stealing this from a friend of mine.

He's a lawyer. He said, old lawyers or young lawyers know all the rules. Old lawyers know all the exceptions. And I'm like, whoa, that's anything, you know? Yes. Like, the young guys know all the rules. The old guys know all the exceptions, you know. And that's the thing about reading.

It's good, you know. I think it makes you more competent if you understand why you're doing what you do. But if you start there without doing along with it, you know, You're just, you're not going to be able to handle the problems that come up because you're going to be, that should not have happened because I read this over here. I saw this on a YouTube. You've probably seen this with some people, right? Yes, absolutely. So when I met you and started doing dogs, I'm like, I'm not consuming a single piece of content. I'm going to learn hands on. All right. And that's what I've done through conversations and just showing up at the kennel and learning things. Yeah. You know, you taught me a lot of the wise. But I haven't really went down to a content rabbit hole about it. Because there's downsides to it. If you're just reading, if you're just watching, If you're just listening and you're not doing, you're not going to be prepared for all the exceptions to those rules you're reading, watching, and listening to.

So to your point about injury, to get back to what I was saying, when I first started training for strength. And, like, I found Rip at toe. I found starting strength. I started running the barbell lifts. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to make these a little bit heavier. I'm like, this is simple. This program is awesome. I get to add 15 pounds of my squat every week and 15 pounds of my bench every two weeks, you know, 30 pounds.

a month to my bench. And I'm running it, running it, running. The squawk gets hard. And then the adrenaline starts kicking. And I'm like, well, I'm going to do it anyway. It's just like with the bite work, right? Yep. I'm going to take the dog, don't be a bitch.

Yep. And then I tore my ad doctor at LA Fitness. Oh, boy. I was at a Globo gym in Hollywood. And as you can imagine, it's very L.A. What happened. Yeah. I tore my ad doctor.

I heard a pop. And then I dropped with the weight on my back. It was 295 pounds the first time because this happened twice. I dropped the bar on the pins. And I'm, like, sitting there, curled up. And the guy's in a rack, like, three feet away from me. He's looking in the mirror flexing like this, you know. Doesn't even notice I'm hurt, right?

And I'm there and I'm like, well, pick up your balls, stand up, dude, you know? So I just kind of limped out, went to work because I was living in L.A. I had, you know, my stepbrother lived there, but I really had no family or anything there. I was per diem at the dialysis centers. I was a consultant at the nursing home. So I didn't have, like, a full-time job with, like, vacation days. So I had to go to work hurt. And I'm like, man, I hope I'm not like really hurt, you know?

Yeah. You know, it healed over time. I learned how to manage that. I hired a coach and then he rebuilt my lift. I'm like, oh, shit, I wasn't even doing this right. You know, there's like a specific way to do this. I don't just look at a program and assume that I'm doing it right, which is what most people do when they're reading up on how to train. They're looking at a program and not understanding that that program assumes you're performing those exercises in a very specific way because they're going to get heavier.

And however you're moving is how they're going to get heavier. So I got the injury, got fixed. And I'm like, okay, I know how to do it now. I ran it up, got to 3.30, tore the other side. This time a big Royded out guy walked over and picked me up. Because you got some help this time. That one scared the shit out of me. It took 10 months to heal from that.

But it was a similar experience where I started working up. It got heavy. Then this happened. I'm like, shit, I got 310 on my back. I don't know. I don't know. I think it's still kind of hurts. I don't know.

I'm like, I got to put it away. A three group, you know. Yeah. And then I had to have this crazy thought that, like, kind of goes against what, this is not advice, by the way. This is how I worked through it. I was like, well, either I'm going to go down and hurt myself again or I'm going to stand up with it. Okay.

And then from that point on, I was able to finish healing it. And that was 13 years ago. And nothing like that has happened again. Knock on wood. Yeah. Or vinyl wood or. engineered wood. I've had tweaks, you know, aches and pains, but the reason it hasn't been that serious again

is because I learned how to do it properly. And I started following what it looked like when it got heavy. You know, I hired a coach, he watched, he fixed things. And then I videoed all my lifts, you know. And then more time under the bar, just like more time on the field, you start to develop this awareness of what's going on. You start to see things you couldn't see before because you see that picture over and over again. moving the same way over and over again. Then you start to anticipate things.

Same thing with lifting weights, you know, except it's not as dynamic. Well, the dog is very dynamic. Every dog's different. Sure. Situation's different. Two weeks ago, you weren't there, but they had me out in the desert of the Payson. Okay. And they were doing water deployments where the dog's in a boat.

He swims out of the boat. It bites you on the shore. And I'm in this fucking, I don't know, I think I weighed it when I went to Mexico. It was like 25 kilos. So, no, the whole thing was, how much was that suit weigh, do? Like 30 pounds? 25 pounds. Your current suit?

They said 25, so it would have been pounds. Yes, it was 25 pounds. Yeah, that's about right. But if it was wet, that's a different story. Yeah, you start sweating in it. So it gets heavier. Yeah. And then, you know.

So it's like 105 degrees there. And it's all dry. And I got this suit on. And there's no shade. Like, the whole place is just sunlight. You're just cooked. And it was only, what, six or seven dogs? But it takes time.

the dog comes out, he bites you, he comes out again, he bites you, they got to take them back to shore, come back with the next one, do it again. I was like starting to, you know, they're like throwing me waters and no matter how hydrated you are just so, right? And it was stressful for me, it was stressful for the animals too. So like the first three or four bit me funny in a way where I was like, okay, what the fuck? This guy just bit me in the chest. Well, I moved wrong too. Sure. And then all of them were trying to like re-bite, you know, and they, when the handler tells a dog to let go. They're supposed to let go. The rebite's not uncommon, but

that day it was excessive. And I'm like, I'm going to get bit in the foot or the hand or something. Don't think about that shit, dude. It's just kind of like I said with the lift, you know? I'm like, if it happens, it happens. You've got to stay focused. That's it. But with anything physical, there's an inherent risk of injury. Yes. It varies with whatever

you're doing, you know? The thing that I've noticed being around you and all these other guys is there's nothing significant missing off your visible bodies, you know? Right. So that tells me that there's best practices to minimize something really fucked up happening, right? I mean, you still have your nose and your ears and your fingers, you know? That's it. That's it.

But I've been bitten some bad spots. But I want to touch on something that you mentioned earlier. So you said when we're dealing with bite dogs, we're making them angry, you know? I know some people listening here are like, what the fuck is this guy doing the dog to make them angry? And it's, you know, it actually ties in to something that, we talk about in my world. You know, there's this concept of stress, recovery, adaptation. It's Han Salier's model, the general adaptation syndrome.

Have you ever heard of this term? You should go down this rabbit hole because it applies to all organisms. Okay. You know, we've applied it to lifting, and we've basically taken the general adaptation syndrome, and we've called it the stress recovery adaptation cycle. Okay. So the general adaptation syndrome dictates that when you apply stress to an organism, that organism has to then adapt to that stress.

And then when it adapts to that stress and recovers from it, it can now tolerate a greater stress. But if you stress it too much, you get to exhaustion, and that's where the organism dies, right? Okay. And lifting, that's the load, right?

Or the volume. We'll just use load for a familiar example. If I take a novice and he squats 130 feet, he's 18 to 25-year-old, right? Not the old guys or old ladies. squats 135 pounds today. Two days from now, he's going to squat 140 pounds. And two days from then, he's going to squat 145 pounds.

And then he's going to take the weekend off. Monday, he's going to squat 150, then Wednesday, 155, Friday 160, and this will go on for months. And before you know what, this guy's still squatting three times a week, adding 15 pounds a total a week, and he's squatting 350 pounds for three sets of five. He weighs more now. He has more muscle mass on him. But then it's going to come a point where he does. 365, but then 370, he leaves it on the pins.

So what's happened there? Now, he's reached a whole new level where he needs more stress to get more weight on the bar, but it's taking him longer to recover from it. Okay. And I've noticed with how you train these dogs, it's similar, especially mine in particular, because he's a very nervous dog. Mine is what they call a washout. He didn't make it into an agency.

He's not cut out for protection, but he's a capable dog in a controlled setting. Correct. Is that a good way to describe him? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that you have done a really good job with him, and we've been able to get him farther than I think, than I ever anticipated. He's come a really long way. And this is a good point because we talked about this before. I said, you don't become a good trainer or a good coach by dealing with the top 1%. You just get good at training the top 1%. Right. you become good at coaching or training by dealing with the bottom 50 because that's where all the problems are. That's it.

Anybody, and you've mentioned this with their trainers, you could take a genetically gifted dog and he's going to improve even if you suck. Right. You know, how much? Well, that's where it separates one trainer from the next, obviously. But what I'm going to say with that? We run into this with lifting a lot. You get people that are naturally muscular and then something like, look at athletes, right? Their trainers don't know their head from their asshole.

Right. But they get all the fame and the accolades. because they're training a pro football player. So now you've got to do that program. Well, that guy's already strong to begin with. You know, my buddy Rip made a comment once about how Tom Brady should be expected to squat 500. And then the interviewer's like, what? He doesn't need to be a squat specialist.

He doesn't need to squat 500. He's a NFL quarterback. And he's like, do you not understand that if you have the genetics of an NFL quarterback, 500 is not a specialization? Right. That's baseline, you know? And it's the same kind of thing. So what I've noticed when you work with my dog, so when you said you make them angry,

you're not throwing the highest amount of stress you can at a dog right off the bat. And you're very, you are very careful about that. And you've told me others aren't. I haven't been around the garbage like I have with the lifting. Sure. Stumbled upon you guys and seem to done well. But there are people that do that and they shut down a lot of dogs you've mentioned. Yeah.

Unfortunately, because your ego gets involved. And the idea is you gave such a great. description with you stress it to the point that's beneficial. Yes. If I go beyond the dog's threshold, I'm going to lose the dog. Right. And it's, that's, that's the whole idea of, of we're taking these dogs that don't seem fragile, but psychologically we, we're, you know, it's not, it's not a fair fight.

We're in protection, right? We've got all these things and we can understand this is training. We've, we've got a whole different kind of level. So if you're not aware of that and you take a dog, especially some of these dogs that are not the strongest dogs, but we just want to make them the best dogs that they can be in because as you know, like your dog, we say, hey, you know what, he's not for the highest level in this,

but he loves it. Right. Yeah. Because when the dog has these drives, bite work is the most rewarding experience, the most primal experience that they engage in. And even if it's not going to be like the highest level dog, if you're doing it right, they love it.

They look forward to it so much. It's the most fun thing they ever engage in. They live for it. And, you know, again, it comes back to being able to tap into those drives and tap into the dog and make it the best dog it can be. Right. And too often you see. at least in this field, guys come at it from an ego standpoint.

Like, hey, you know what, I was able to do this with this dog. So I'm going to do this with your dog too. And your dog might not be capable of that. And it's not, it becomes, it can really harm the animal, which is a shame because I've seen it many times. It harms humans too. Absolutely, I would think. a young coach, I'm guilty of it myself. You know, I was willing to push myself and do what was

necessary to keep raising the threshold, right? Yes. And then I started training people for a living. And in the beginning, I had, I never had a lot of attrition because I did select for people that were interested in it. But then I'd get some people that just, they just didn't have it. You know, the genetics weren't there. The drive wasn't there. Other things were more important. There's a variety of reasons. It's kind of shaped my training approach now. I used to be very dismissive of the psychology of the lifter. And I'd be like, well, you know, stop being a pussy and just show up and do the work. I don't understand this.

But, you know, just like I don't want to see a dog that's scared. I don't want to see a human shutdown either that stops lifting all together because I push them too hard. I've been always cognizant of injury risk, so I've never been one to hurt a lot of people. but I'm one that wants to keep pushing when the person's starting to check out. That's how it was when I was much younger. And then over time, I started to see that pattern. I'm like, if somebody starts missing lifts too much, the risk of them quitting altogether is high. And trainers that aren't necessarily a skill as me figure this out early.

And that's why a lot of exercise programs are watered down because most people that hire a trainer aren't the top 1%. You know, they're people that, for lack of a better word, suck at this. And they have other things going on. They're never going to push their threshold much past what we would consider novice. Those newbie gains are the most fun for a new person. That when it gets complicated, you've got to figure out a way they get people accidentally stronger without them having to face those thresholds too often. Whereas myself, you know, okay, I shut myself down or I'm going to just be lazy with my workout for a week and I'll recharge from it. I understand this.

I've been through it. Sure. This is what I do. I'm a lifter. I'm a coach, and I'll figure it out. Just like, well, you have an accident with a dog, you're going to work through that, and you're going to figure out a way to keep going.

Most people aren't like that. Just like I said, most dogs aren't like those unique unicorns, you know? And it's funny, you know, what you were talking about before, I wanted to mention that. Like, I tell people all the time, like, you don't learn, like if you get the best genetic specimen for dog work, right off the bat, you don't learn nearly as much is if you get the dog where you're like,

hey, this dog is not genetically the highest level. But I want to bring them along as much as I can. You become very, very sensitive to the dog. And you do the things that really help improve the dog. And as you progress, you see, hey, now your Dex dog might be a better genetic specimen and you're going to be much more successful with it. Yeah. No, it's the same thing with people.

at the seminars, the starting strength seminars, Rip would say it's the recruiter's job at that point when you're dealing with the top 1%. Right. At the trainer, it's the recruiter. You call it the selection process. Yeah. And I've, you know, we used to be very dismissive of these guys, these D1 coaches, these pro coaches. Because really, you know, a lot of a market trainers. They're not training, you know, your old guy with a bunch of fucked up injuries.

Right. Worked behind a desk his whole life. And that played, you know, Denver, or the young guy that played video. games, you know, the non-athletic. That's where you learn the most. Sure. But after watching you with all these puppies, there is a skill there with the selection process that should not be overlooked, you know, like if that's your job to find the best of the best, to put them in those situations where they're going to be.

You got to be the recruiter too. Yeah. That's a job, you know, it's a different job, but it's the job. I'd say that, you know, the reason I like coming to you is because you're a blend of both, I would say. I don't think you get enough credit for how good. of a trainer you are because sometimes I got to dig it out of you, but you find it,

you know? And that's, thank you. The fact that you can get better at it, you know, it speaks to me because some guys can't. They just cannot fucking explain it no matter how you've experienced it yourself probably, trying to figure this out. But you always get the message out through enough conversation, which is plenty for me,

you know, and you've never said, oh, it's because I said so, you know. Oh, yeah. Oh, you know, it's just, it just feels right. Yeah. Sometimes you say, I don't know, and then we try to video you. so that you can look at it. Yeah. You know,

then everybody forgets to video. Yes. But, well, you have to say, I don't know, right? Yeah.

Because if we knew everything in the field, like, what are we doing? Yeah. You know, um, so, and one of the things that, this is interesting and,

uh, I've found in the dog, in the canine world is anytime I'm working with another trainer or I've worked with other trainers in the past, anytime they start to tell me their resume, I am, very, very skeptical. Right.

Like, your resume is the dogs you put out. I don't care that you've been training dogs for 60 years and you train 50 Navy SEALs and like none of that matters. Let me see your dog. Right. There's your resume. And if your dogs are not, are consistently not making high level working animals, it doesn't matter how long you've been in it, right?

Because you need to revisit things. I know a guy that's been in this for 60 years or something. and I knew him 25, 30 years ago. And I see him today. He still trains the same way as he did 30 years ago. And I don't know how anyone can cling to things or cling to dogma or kind of the ideology of things. Because everything we know improves with more education, the more we evolve in training, the better it is for the human and the dog.

The dog training that we saw 20 years ago would be considered abusive by today's standards. And you still find people that relate to their dogs in that way. And especially when it comes to aggression work or protection work or bite work is, you know, the way that I think everyone learned it many, many years ago was through force and dominance and, a very unproductive kind of antagonistic relationship between the human and the dog.

And there's such better ways to do it. And you see now the way we use the canine, it's so much more integrated with teams, with people. They're so social. They're capable of so much more than what we used to think they were capable of. And a lot of that was created by the relationship we created with the dogs. We've seen similar things in the wait room. I'm sure. 20, even 15 years ago.

I mean, this goes back to the 70s. Yeah. We'd follow the workouts at the drug using top 1% we're doing. Right. And it shut down so many people, injured so many people. And the way that I've learned to approach this has seen that people are a lot capable of a lot more than I previously thought. I didn't think I could, what I just, I'm going to use before testosterone numbers for all you haters. I tripled 425 pounds on the squat.

I deadlifted 505 for five reps. And when I first stumbled upon strength training, I thought those were like impossible numbers. I remember I'm like, I saw a board post and rips like, you don't see too many 400s and 500s in the gym anymore. And I'm like, I can't do either of those numbers on anything.

And then it just seemed like an impossible goal. And then eventually just by taking this approach to it, being careful with it and not over-stressing myself, but making sure I was still pushing the limit safely. I'm like, shit, I'm wrapping that out now. What the fuck? That's cool. Really cool.

So it's, it, knowledge is supposed to evolve, right? There's probably more shit coming down the pipeline, of course. Absolutely. But to your point, the hell was I going to say with that? You were talking? We take a little time out, you think? Yeah, yeah. Take just a minute.

One of the most valuable things I've learned, hanging again. out with you is this concept of there are no rules, which really means there's exceptions, every rule. Yes. And you would know them. We've done this a long time. And the way I was taught, because I was born in 84, giving my age away here, and I went to college in the 2000s.

And education, I don't know, that it's evolved this way or has just gotten worse and it's always been this way. Very much flow chart-like laminated index card, my friend likes to you. You know, my friend's an anesthesiologist, and he retired. And his criticism of younger doctors was that they follow a laminated index card of things that they're supposed to do if A then B. If B, then C, if C, then D. And when it's outside of that, they don't know what to do. Then the critical thinking has been lost.

I mean, we could do a whole episode on that topic, but we won't. I'll keep it contextual to what you and I do. But that's kind of how I was taught. Okay, if I need the answer, I got to find the system. You know, systems are great. It has made life more efficient, but it's also made us dumber in some ways. Yeah. They have no better way to say that, people.

It's made us a bunch of dumbasses because we follow the flow chart, then things are outside the flow chart. Then, well, what the fuck do I do? Sometimes you do everything right, then something else happens. And spending time with you and this dog stuff, I've learned that that's a learning opportunity is what that is. Yeah. And you can't, and, you know, Chris says the same thing. We're talking about sales. He's definitely helped me become a better salesperson.

Yeah. And he's like, you know, he gave me his. system, but then I'm like, well, I did this, this, and that dude. And he's like, there's no rules, dude. It's different every time. And you've said that too. You're like, well, I don't know, it depends. You never give me a black and white answer. And it drives other people crazy, especially younger people. Yeah. And this is why. This is how younger people have been taught that. Sure. There's a flow chart. Well, I thought you said this. I thought it's A plus B plus C plus D. And then you're like, well, not this time. And for me, it was great because I've been trying to break that.

Like, I was already aware of this problem in the way that I was educated. Like I got, so I had a bachelor's and a master's, and I get out of school. I start working in health care, and it's more of the same shit. In health care, it's all about documentation and staying in line with the standards of care. And I will take this opportunity to shit on the standards of care because humans are not standard issue. The problem with standards of care is they're there so that you can easily bill Medicare and insurance for the thing you're treating the person for. Well, now the problem is all, this is a whole rabbit hole. diagnoses are worth different dollar amounts.

And now you start playing a game with codes and you're not really treating the patient. That's a whole other episode. I need to bring a doctor in for that one. But the point is you try to stick to the standard, to the guideline. But then you get things that aren't quite in the guidelines. You know, we're not, you know, we're not. There are lots of general truths with humans with dogs, obviously. We have a system that we follow.

We see patterns that are reproducible across many, many people, many, animals. But not 100% of the time. and you got to change your approach and be ready to change your approach and I think you know getting into this dog world you've helped me do that in ways that spread into other things

awesome so I want to talk I want you to talk more about that because you didn't have a system he said we didn't know any of this shit Rip says the same thing about lifting too like I looked at his training log once from the 80s and I'm like it said squat high back this much weight knees

and I'm like well why the fuck did your knees hurt he's like I don't know And I'm like, what? He's like, nobody, we didn't have any of this shit. Nobody was there saying, oh, your knees aren't out and you're, you know, too upright and all these other things wrong. He's like, it hurt. And instead of ask me, well, why did it hurt, you know? Yeah.

And a lot of trial and error back then with lifting. And I'd imagine he was more so with dogs. Yeah, for sure. Like there was no book, right? No guidelines. Well, there were. You know, I learned a lot from books in the beginning and going to seminars and learning from guys that have been doing it longer than I have. I would look for guys that were very successful in competition,

and I'd go to their seminars and try to learn from them. But this, I think, goes back to, like, you know, Bruce Lee wrote a book called The Dow of Jekundo. Okay. And, you know, his big thing, the thing that got him in trouble with hardcore martial artists is he didn't believe in a system. You know, one of his big philosophies was having no way as way. And I think that that's so important with dogs is, you know, everybody wants a system. Everybody wants to know A, B. G gets you do this, you do this, it gets that.

And because, you know, every dog is different in many ways. Yes, absolutely, there are things you can do with the majority of dogs to get them to do these things, that they're going to like this and, you know, play. But I can't ever put myself into a system of, hey, this is how we're going to do it, because it's a dynamic field. And I don't like a lot of rules. I haven't, you know, it's not been something I've been good with in my life in general. So it's a very easy philosophy for me when it comes to dog training.

And, you know, my good friend and partner Wes, he is very good at rules and planning. structure and I drive them crazy a lot but you know I think that's how we kind of compliment each other sometimes is you know me being kind of this weird artist and him being more of a scientist and you know making things work that way because there is definitely especially when you're dealing with professional professionals you're dealing with law enforcement whatever it might be having some type of system and structure is important because you're dealing with with a lot of people and you have to be able to implement kind of standard operating procedures. And so, but when I'm, when I'm creating a dog and looking at a dog at whatever age,

whatever stage it is, I'm never thinking about it in a system of like, oh, I have to do this to get this. You know, you have to be able to adapt and look at the animal and be in real time and go, what, you know, something that this dog likes, this other dog. dog might not like it all. And being, you know, tapping into what the dog likes is so important. And that's where I feel we, as much as training is evolved with the internet, like I'll say, I've never seen better training than there is today.

It just keeps getting better. But a lot of it is superficial. And how much of that is going to play over into real world? scenarios. And I hope a lot of it does, but unfortunately, being able to recognize, like, absolutely, I can take this really, really playful system and put it in over here, but there has to also be another component. And being able to adjust and go back

and forth into what creates the best animal and human dog relationship is, that's what I think you get only through experience. Absolutely. It just kind of goes back to the newer you are to something or the newer the dog is to you, the more similar the approach is going to be. And as you develop that, you start to find things that become more individual and things become less predictable. So the way that I explained with lifting is a novice, it's pretty predictable and it's very general. As a person advances through his capabilities, things become less.

more individual and less predictable. Does that sound similar? Yeah. Yeah. Very much. So, like, what I've learned, like, for instance, something I've learned from you guys, you get a new dog, priority number one is build a relationship with that dog.

Right. Yeah. That's a system right there. Yeah. But you're at the very basic fundamental level at that point. Things are going to look more similar. Then as you start to interact with the dog, get to know the dog,

intricacies come up and things become more specific. Progress becomes a little less predictable. I've had some dogs where I'm like, shit, I'm like, I can't send this dog back. And then all of a sudden it flips on its head and I'm like, oh, we're good. That worked. And then other times I've had to extend it. Sure. You know, but in the beginning, that relationship component.

Yeah. That was huge. Nobody's taught me it in those terms before. Yeah. And it makes sense, you know, when you're dealing with a part. person, hey, go do all this shit for me. And I just saw you for the first time, right? Right. Like you wouldn't do that. Or with puppies, right, you're going to leave a baby roaming around your house. Yeah. Unsupervised, you know? Like, this is what I, when I tell clients,

they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, you got a point, you know? Well, and I think one of the things that that can happen, at least in the dog business is people start to think about the money, the financial side of it. And gyms too, yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure. And it's like, you know, people make these false promises to, to, I mean, as a, as a client, let's say, you know, you've watched some videos on, especially in the protection world because it's such an unregulated world. And it is a, uh, a lot of people that don't have actual practical experience. And they'll tell people, oh, yes, we can make this a protection dog. Give us your money. Or, oh, yes, this is, this is, this is, this is definitely capable of making it to

high levels. And I don't think they're intentionally. No, I think they believe it. I think they believe it a lot of the time. We've seen so many clients that have come to us and they said, hey, we bought this protection dog from this company. We spent crazy amounts of money on it, but we don't think we got what we paid for. And we'll evaluate the dog. And it's nowhere near what we would consider to be a protection dog.

It's a very tough place because you grow, no matter our, what you, the original intention of purchasing a dog is for. Once you have that dog, it's very hard for us as humans, I mean, unless the dog is just a dangerous, unruly animal. But if you have a good, most dogs are just so well-intentioned, you can't help but fall in love with them. And now you go, hey, I spent all this money to have a dog to do this one thing and it's not capable of it.

What do you do? You can't just get rid of your. partner. Right. You talk about thousands of dollars, too. Yeah. Six figures a lot of the time. No shit.

Yeah. So now we're going, well, it's a great dog. It's not going to be capable of what you purchased it for, but we will make it the best dog it can be. And that's the, I think that's the whole thing behind any level of dog training is about getting the human and the dog into a harmonious relationship. I agree. That's the best part. The thing that I try to promise every client that comes to the door is the dog's going to be happier to interact with the human by the time they get it back. That's it. You know, a lot of, this is part of what we talk about when I get a new client.

We talk about this all the time. You've said it in your content. A lot of training is very focused on the tasks that you ask them to perform. Sit, down, come, stay, et cetera. And I tell them straight up, I'm like, I don't care if that's sloppy, we can clean that up. I want them to be happy to interact with us. before anything else. And I've learned that from you guys.

Yeah. And it makes so much sense because it's like if you're working with a human being, you're not going to start asking them to perform tasks for you if there's no relationship there. Right. I don't know you. I don't trust you. Why would I listen to that? Exactly.

And I deal with that a lot. So in the beginning of my career, people would hire me because I knew who I was. Like I was affiliated with starting strength and I did nutrition for them. So they were already bought into the thing I was teaching. Right. I was subbing for another company where not so much, they were. bought into mainstream fitness. And I had to approach that differently because they're like, they don't know me.

If I go away from what they're used to, why would they listen to me? Right. I need to build the trust first to go there. And I've converted many people from general fitness bullshit to just basic strength training. And they've gotten the results they've wanted. They've gotten stronger. They've gotten leaner. They're more functional productive human beings.

But it did not start that way. I had to pad the workouts with things that I didn't think was necessary, but that fit into what that person thought they needed. Yep. And then over time, they're like, I'm spending a lot of time in the gym. I'm like, well, you don't need all this shit. And then before you know, they're, you know, doing a much more basic workout. And getting more from it.

Yeah, exactly. Working smarter. Exactly. That's what we sell, you know, keep it efficient, keep it basic, keep it simple, purposeful, utilitarian. But there's two more things I want to hit on before we close out. The show would not be complete with either one. So number one, we're talking about protection dogs, police dogs. You define those two things.

I know the differences. I've had to explain it to people. I want to hear you explain it. So, you know, I think. And before you say anything, when my business, we say, bodybuilders are born. You can't develop a bodybuilder. You're born that way. Okay.

You know, tight skin, gray style, knees, and elbows, you know, thin, small waist, you know, thick muscle bellies, lots of muscle fibers. All these things you're born with and you bring them out through training, right? I think it's similar there. types of dogs are born, but there is a difference between those two types that you have been referring to. Absolutely. You know, that's a, that's a great point. So the protection dog is absolutely that. It is a genetic specimen that is very rare and very difficult to find a true protection dog. So, you know, you can get on Google protection dogs and you'll have these guys with their different tiers and they're different types of training that, you know, my dog can assess the threat

and transfer from one area to the other, and the dog is making all these decisions that is absolutely contrary to, you know, when we use a dog in any type of protection or patrol work, it's never about the dog making the decision. The dogs are not the decision makers, the human is, right? And so what you find in protection dogs is a lot of bullshit for, you know,

a way to simplify it. You know, a true protection dog is a dog that's capable of the highest-level SWAT deployment that you could think of dealing with all the stress that a police dog might deal with. And also being the most well-tempered, well-mannered, docile animal in everyday life. Basically, a service dog that has the potential for, serious violence when you say so. And finding that animal is very, very unique. It's a very, very, you know, rare genetic specimen.

When we find them, we tune them to the best that we can because it is such a valuable asset. It is, it is, it is, it is really the ultimate of the dogs that we develop. A police dog, it has to have, obviously, some of the same traits, no self-preservation, very intense. When we say go, they go without hesitation. But they don't have to have all the, I don't have to worry about a police dog. You know, I shouldn't say I don't have to worry about it.

But if we're sticking to protocols that officer canine handlers have, they're not going to let some kid pull the dog's tail, right? They're not going to be in public settings in the same way. They're going to be neutral, right? They're going to be in a team. they're going to be loaded up in a van or swap whatever it might be. They have to be very social and neutral with the team. But ultimately, they don't have to deal with the social conflicts that a lot of the protection dogs will have to deal with.

So it doesn't have to be the same level of temperament, right? Hey, he's going to ride around in the cage for a little while. We're going to get him out. He needs to be cool with the team. Grab that guy and hold on to him and distract. him so we can get a tactical advantage on them. That's the function of the police dog, whereas the protection dog is much, much different. It has to be cool in every environment.

It has to be tolerant of all the poor interactions that we as humans have with them. It's a very, very rare, a true protection dog is a very rare gem, but having one is such a asset and just such a great relationship for the human to have this dog that can go everywhere you go, it's always safe unless you say otherwise. And you think about it, it's not that much different from our very, very highly trained special forces operators, right? They're, they're typically very confident. They're not going to go out and someone bumps into them. They're not going to try to, they're not going to get into a street fight over it, right? They're very safe humans, but they're capable of very intense violence.

And that's basically what a true protection dog is. And just like our special operators are very rare humans, the true protection dog is a very rare dog. I think of the one, well, there's multiple, but I think of the one in specific that you cloned. Yes. Ditto. Is that why you named them that? Well, I didn't name them a good friend. friend of mine, Crystal, she was helping me raise him. And she's very creative and has that mindset.

She's a great trainer. And she had them. And because they were clones, she named him Ditto. And I just thought it was such a great name. He's such a great dog. But my good friend, Joe Sanante, was the kind of the mindset behind which dog to clone. He cloned this dog, Pico. And, you know, he cloned him because of what we're talking about, this dog that was so safe and so friendly and such a great dog, but capable of such power and violence when necessary. And so for us, dog geeks,

like that's what we're always looking for, that ultimate dog that can be, is docile and friendly to everyone you tell him to, but at the same time, we can say, actually don't be friendly anymore, bite that guy. And he's going with every fiber

and his beating, being until the death in that fight. And it's a very, very, it's like I can't say how rare that dog is, having dealt with, I don't know how many thousands of bite dogs over the years. When you see that dog and you have that dog where you're like, this dog is capable of any deployment you could imagine. And the safest dog on the other side of that. And your toddler can pull his tail. Exactly.

It's a very rare dog. I've experienced this guy firsthand. I'll suit up, do bite work with him, and George explains as the best. He's offended that you even want to fight him. That's how this guy is. He's angry. He fights hard. And then five minutes later, he's shoving my hand up on his head to pet him and rub his belly.

And it's the most bizarre thing because this happens within minutes. Yes. So I'm grateful to have experienced that knowing how much, how many shenanigans. are out there, you know? And he's a cool motherfucker. Yeah. So to that point, last topic, and then we'll close out, probably the most important topic we should have started with. This is a physically demanding job, you know, and you do some lifting of your own. I've trained you before, but we're on opposite schedules. You're a 6 a.m.

guy, and I'm a fucking night owl. Although I think I'm willing to change it because enough of you want to wake up early and come. So, you know, I think I'm willing to do that and probably get me and the schedule I should be on. All right. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I learned so much just from the few sessions I had with you. I really, really enjoyed it. Like everything, there's a little bit of science, a little bit of art.

And, but I can tell you now, I'm old. So one thing I've learned over the years, having done this job for a long time. And if I don't exercise on a really, regular basis away from from the job I get it I get hurt I get injuries you know I'm 52 now yeah I still decoyed almost daily so it you know it's it's a very physically demanding job if I don't exercise you know for me five days a week I get injured and you're including cardio in that right I am yeah I don't do you know anymore. I don't do

I guess what would be considered traditional cardio. I do more of like the hit work. Which is what you need. Yes. It's more specific to that activity. It definitely without it. If I don't exercise, I know I'm

setting myself up for failure. Yeah, one of the things that when I first started watching this, it was where my mind went, I'm like, man, you can get a lot of back hip and knee injury, shoulder injuries if you're not strong to do this. And I was very curious at how my body would handle that. And for me, the problem has been the fucking cardio. Okay. Yeah. Because you can muscle so much of it. Yeah. Yeah. I watch

you lift a dog. I'm like, I would never lift a dog like that. How? Just because it's sheer muscle. And for me, like, everything I'm doing is about being lazy in it, right? Because I've learned to kind of moving a way where I can minimize effort. Right. Because I'm catching a bunch of dogs on a regular basis. If I'm trying to muscle all of it, I'm done. Right. You know, I'll have guys that are, you know, we used to have this guy that would come out.

He was right out of the military, super strong kid. But he catches two or three dogs in the suit and he's done, right? And I'll be out there half the day, you know, and without exerting as much. effort because I have to, right? I'm older, I'm weaker. I'm not, I mean, I have to be, find techniques to keep myself able to keep going and going and going. And also, you know, the big part of it is, is mental, right? Like, the first few times you start getting attacked by dogs, there's a lot of stress, which is fatiguing, you know, whereas, like anything, you do it a bunch, you jump out of a plane a whole bunch of times, like your 50th jump is much

different than your first jump, right? Like it's a same, same concept. You, you, you start to not be as stressed about it. It's not that you're not still careful and aware of the danger, but you, it doesn't affect you the same way. Everything slows down for you, whereas when you, I'm sure you know, the first time we sent a dog on you, you're like, where did that come from? You don't even see anything. All of a sudden, you're on the ground. Yeah. The first one I ever had was with a mutual colleague of ours. And it was, I was supposed to do it earlier in the day. And then it just got later and later and later.

And it was dark out. And then she's like, you sure you still want to do it? It's dark out. And I'm like, yeah, let's do it. Yeah, why not? Yeah, why not? What could go wrong? Yeah.

She sends it, the son, she starts me with, you know, you have to give me your assessment off camera, but this motherfucker at handler aggression, you remember the dog, right? I don't know if I do. I see too many dogs. It's the guy in Northern California's demo dog. I don't know. I'm sure, like, if you explain it more, I'll know what you're talking about. Well, he was a big dog, and he was mean, and he put a couple holes in this girl, right?

Oh, okay. And that's the dog I started with, at night. Ascend means I'm out in the field. The dog charges me from a distance. That was the first experience with a bite. Yeah. Horrible way to introduce a novice, but if you knew the person, you would understand, And she has a little self-preservation.

Yes, I'm sure. Yeah, she definitely does. So I caught this dog and did the thing, then every dog after that seemed easier. Okay. The dog actually bit her right after she pulled them off me. That was the last time she had that dog. She came back to the guy she got it from. That's a difficult, difficult deal.

I think third, it might have been her third, third times a charm. Maybe it was her fourth, I don't know. But that was the last time I saw that dog as her dog. Now I see that dog as somebody else's dog. but I remember driving home and my hands started shaking. Okay. And I'm like, that was awesome. All right.

Yeah. And then a few months. I think it took about six months and I did it with you. And then I've been doing it ever since. But the thing that I noticed now that it's been probably over, it's been a year and a half almost since I started taking bites. My conclusion is I think that because I have the surplus of strength that I I'm not a champion power lifter by any means, by any measure, but I don't need to be as strong as I am to do most things.

Right. It's just a non-issue, you know? Yeah. And the thing I think... Well, it's a testament to what you do, right? That you can go into something that's really physically exerting and perform. Yeah. Like the...

Swinging the dog up on my shoulder, right? Yeah. Like, I learned how to do that from Olympic lifting. Okay. Because Olympic lifting teaches you how to get ahead. heavy weight off the floor. Well, moderately heavy weight, because if it was heavy, you wouldn't be able to do it. You have to get it off the floor and get underneath it very quickly. Okay. You have to use your hips to generate momentum so you can essentially catch the weight and you're not musling it up. So if you wash, you now start paying attention when I'm swinging a dog.

Okay. Watch my hips. Okay. I'm hoisting that dog. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it just looks, it looks like a lot of strength to me. Yeah. But it's not. No, there might not be. My upper body is not doing much. Right. It's you getting under the dog and then pressing up. Exactly. So have you ever watched Olympics clean and jerk snatch? Yeah, absolutely. So if you don't know what you're looking at, it looks like they're lifting it up with their arms.

Right. That's not at all what's happening. They're hoisting it with their hips, knees, and ankles. Right. If you watch, the ankles extend, the knees extend, the hips extend, the weightlifters call it triple extension. Okay. So all of this force come from the quads, the glutes, the hamstrings. Mm-hmm.

impose momentum onto the weight so that by the time their arms move, they're just moving to get underneath it. Right. So when I started wrestling with dogs and I just got confident enough, I was less worried about the bite and now, okay, let's get creative with it. And I wanted to try and get the dog up. I knew what to do because of the weightlifting. Right. Olympic weightlifting. When I say weightlifting, I mean Olympic weightlifting. Right. That's a term in my industry, by the way.

If you say weightlifting, it implies Olympic weightlifting or Olympic lifting. In Olympic weightlifting, you're hoisting things up. with your hips. Your hips, knees, and ankles, essentially. All right. So when I get a dog up here, I'm not using my arms at all. Okay. It's coming from here.

Sure. Yep. And then the momentum gets the dog to land on my shoulder. So I'm catching. But it's interesting because, like, I was watching you guys move and all that. But yeah, to your point, you and Connor look lazy. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the dude barely moves. Yeah. Yeah. And I watched that, and I'm like, that's something that either is natural for him, for sure.

Very gifted. He moves very differently than you, and I can tell the difference. He's very gifted. Wes said it to me, then I started internalizing it because I've watched it in the wait room. He's like, George's reps, he's talent. And I started watching videos thinking back on it. I'm like, I see what he's talking about.

I've seen it in the wait room. You could tell when somebody's practiced the lifts a lot, and when somebody's not even thinking about this shit, not because they practice, just because they just know how to they just know. Yeah. Like, this guy we're talking about, he literally looks like he moves a centimeter. Yeah. That fucking catches a dog.

And here I am, I'm like, fuck, I barely move my fucking shoulders. I'm going to have to do this thousands of times, you know? But it makes sense. You know, you're doing over and over and over again thousands of times. Yeah, you know, you've got to find ways to be efficient. I didn't have natural talent. Yeah. Yeah.

It's hard to believe. Yeah. And if he didn't tell me that, I didn't compare the two of you, I wouldn't have figured that out. Right. Yeah. But to that point, strength helps even more. You have both. Oh, without a doubt.

Because it becomes a non-issue. Without a doubt. I've never fatigued because things hurt. Right. Because something's sore or won't contract anymore. That's never the issue. It's either I'm too hot because we're in fucking Arizona. Yep.

And I didn't drink enough water because I'm a fucking camel. Right. Or I can't breathe. That even rarely happens. I have a decent baseline amount of cardio. Like I'll start huffing and puffing, but I can work through it. Right. Because I can develop the cardio if I want to.

Sure. I'm not like one of these guys. It's all strong. You've seen these guys, you know, that are like sprinters. Yep. And they have to do a lot of cardio or they lose it. I'm somewhere in between. Okay.

So, you know, you've never seen me stop over that. I've stopped because I'm like, I'm in my head, it's going to get dangerous. Yes. It's never because of physical. No. But it. Which is smart. You have to be able to know.

Because at that point, it's not doing you or the dog any good. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Dude, we've been rambling for two hours. Are you serious? Yeah. All right.

And a camera's about to. die. Okay. I don't know. No, it's not. It's plugged in. I don't know why it's blinking. Maybe it's the bad, that's the card.

Thanks for having me all, man. Yeah, man. It's been a great conversation. Yeah. To do it again. Let's close out. Yeah, we're going to do it again. We've got to talk food.

All right. But, yeah. So thank you all for tuning in to the Strong and Sleak podcast. You can find me on Instagram at the underscore Robert underscore Santana or Strong andSleeck. Or on Instagram at strong underscore and underscore sleek. George, where can they find you? Caninead Defense.

dot com. I don't know my Instagram. Daniel Los G. Danielos G is my personal. And K9 Defense at K9 Defense on Instagram.

You're not allowed to answer that one. Oh, no. They always joke about that. Oh, yes. Yeah. You won't find me on there. There'll be other people that run it for us.

And if you're ever in Phoenix, you know, give these guys a call. If you're interested in dog stuff, and if you want to see stuff, It's been a blessing to be a part of that. So. Thank you. And if you're in town, my gym is open.

So come check it out. We're North Scottsdale just near the air park. Thanks for tuning in. And we'll see you next time.