Well There‘s Your Problem - Episode 174: Air Florida Flight 90

Starting point is 00:00:00 Three, two, one, mark. Okie dokie. Ow, my hands really hurt, I clapped too hard. Oh, poor baby. And let me start the slideshow. I need everyone to know that I'm a very sleepy boy, so if you get the delirium early that's what's happening to me. Understood, registered.

Starting point is 00:00:20 That's reasonable. I'm fully nocturnal at this point, so I'm good. I'm locked in. I'm good to go. Yeah. I didn't nap in nursery, so this afternoon was, uh, uh, sorry, Devin, can you bleep, just in case, bleep that name. The little one did not sleep in nursery, so put down was interesting. She was just crying the whole evening, so poor little one. Just in motion, you know. Anyway. That's, that's what they do. It's what they're programmed to do. She's very good normally.

Starting point is 00:00:48 She's just a good sport. So when she's crying, it's normally there's something serious up, or she's just completely knackered. In this case it was the latter. She's just like me in that respect. I also cry when I'm tired. I've had the lock milkshake out of the room because he was getting really aggressive about trying to get on my head. Because he's, head because he's yeah He's just hard. He's just Social relationship with him. Yes, this is true. I

Starting point is 00:01:12 Can't believe this creature that I feed in house has affection for me and also wants to help my head, baby All right, all right enough jobs welcome to Alright, alright. Enough jokes. Welcome to, Well There's Your Problem. It's a podcast about engineering disasters. With slides. I'm Justin Rosniak, I'm the person who's talking right now. My pronouns are he and him. Okay go.

Starting point is 00:01:37 I'm November Kelly, I'm the person who's talking now. My pronouns are she and her. Yay Liam. You okay there buddy? Yeah, I'm great. Yay Liam, hi, I'm Liam Mc? Yeah, I'm great. Yay Liam. Hi, I'm Liam McAnderson, I'm the person talking right now. Very sleepy.

Starting point is 00:01:50 Slee-um, if you will. Very sleepy Liam. You sound like, you know the bit in Howl's Moving Castle, where he's kind of like mostly goo? Yeah. Yeah. I'm thirty percent goo. Not the fun kind, the bad kind. Drop and run goo.

Starting point is 00:02:07 Oh, we get to talk about goo later in this episode. Oh, are people turned into goo? Is there some sort of goo? No, there's goo involved. Oh, I don't like it when there's goo involved. And bringing up the rear is Gareth. It's me! Gareth Christ. The other Temp co cohost of WTOP. Yeah. My name's Gareth Dennis. My pronouns are he and him. And, uh, and I was forced under duress to change a slider position on my go XLR mini that had been in position for months under instruction of Nova of this parish. I was forced to, under threat of violence

Starting point is 00:02:47 by a certain Dr. Eleanor Janneger, I've now readjusted it back to where it was supposed to be again, so it all should be well. ALICE We hate to ever change anything on our audio mixes. It's the thing. JUSTIN Yes. It's scary. ALICE To ask me to do so is like, you threaten me with violence. JUSTIN As you cut off a limb, right?

Starting point is 00:03:03 ALICE Yeah, Yeah. Exactly. Of course. I got the same mediocre audio setup I've always had. And I'll write it into oblivion. I guess the problem with audio setups is it's like, you know, you, you, you put it together once and you're like, I'm never touching this. Oh, yeah. No, no. I mean, you guys have heard travel setups V1 through 17 or whatever I'm on now. I remember you were on a beach I think once in a long past episode, like we're talking like a long time ago.

Starting point is 00:03:33 London Fire I think, yeah. And you took a mic stand which then you lost on the way to the beach. These are the setups that are lost to the hours of history. Just like screaming into like half of a hollowed out coconut on a string. SEAN Yeah, you guys see Castaway, right? Bean Top Heads. JUSTIN Castaway on the Jersey Shore. RILEY That's thematic, because in Castaway there is an aviation incident of a sort.

Starting point is 00:04:00 And we're pretty much looking at one of those now. ALICE Yeah, I don't think it's supposed to look like that. What you see here is the tail of a Boeing 737-200 being lifted by the crane out of the Potomac River in Washington DC. And you're telling me this was caused by a goo? Uh, a lack of goo. Oh, is this gonna be the gray goo theory, but just for devouring 737s? No, we'll get to that in a bit.

Starting point is 00:04:31 Uh, today we're gonna talk about the exciting story of Air Florida Flight 90. There's nothing exciting about Florida, man. Well, yeah, it's kind of, uh, you know, well, you can... The land that God forgot. a man. ALICE Well, yeah, it's kind of a... You know. Well, you can... JUSTIN The land that God forgot. JUSTIN Even in this case, they've exported their excitement to the Potulmuk River, in this instance. ALICE You can go to Epcot.

Starting point is 00:04:51 You can go there. JUSTIN I do like that. JUSTIN You don't have to do that. ALICE You can get killed by a hurricane. You can meet the influencer lady, Carol Whatseface. JUSTIN Shelby? ALICE No! The...

Starting point is 00:05:02 JUSTIN Baskin. Carol Baskin? ALICE No, who the fuck are you? If you live in Tampa, you can... No, um, who the fuck... Caroline Calloway! You can meet Caroline Calloway. Oh, the, the, yeah, I don't know who that is.

Starting point is 00:05:15 Okay, well this whole conversation was dead. I told you the delirium had set in. And it was up to me, we're gonna make this thing last three hours of some form of self-flagellation. I want us to do just the opposite. I want us to try and answer the critics by taking out all of the tangents, we just keep in the stuff that's like, straight down the line engineering material, every podcast is 12 minutes long. No.

Starting point is 00:05:40 I will quit the show before we do that. Shut off the podcast right now, go watch the mentor pilot video. That's only about thirty minutes. This is not gonna be thirty minutes. ALICE Yeah, none of us are pilots as well. JUSTIN Yeah, exactly. In fact, we have, uh, in fact instead of a pilot, we have a railway engineer on. ALICE Yeah, you didn't do that.

Starting point is 00:06:00 ALICE We're like the opposite of authority, and this is the thing, right, and this is something that's been bothering me lately, so, in order to... This is a sequence of events in itself, in order to look up when we are doing our own tour, I had to Google it, just to double check. And that led me to the realization that we have a subreddit, right, which appears to be comprised entirely of people who used to listen to this podcast and now don't for one reason or another. And there are two threads on there that aren't just like, hey, the new episode is out, and

Starting point is 00:06:35 they're both about me being confidently wrong about things. So brutal. LWX It... it... it... it don't know, there's a, you know... ALICE No, it's genuinely like two sets of people going, hey, is anyone else noticing that November is kind of a fucking idiot? And it's like, I'm aware of this, but like... RILEY I have things to disagree with on that statement. I mean, Abby said something useful on a recent kill James Bond, if I recall, which is that the reviews are not for you.

Starting point is 00:07:12 That's true. But when they're kind of pointed in your direction, I mean, I try to keep a healthy sense of perspective, right? Because of the people who are like maddest me that I could tell, they were maddest at me for disrespecting Rania Khalek and disrespecting Barney the Dinosaur. So... Oh fuck that guy. On both of those bases, I feel okay. But, yeah, I just have to remind people that I'm not an expert in anything, right?

Starting point is 00:07:40 And if I sound confident about things, it's just because I'm trying to make jokes, I don't know anything about anything. That's what we're all here to learn. You're a comedian, that's your whole point. Yeah, don't tell us that we're comedians. I don't want to have to file a text. I think my webcam's on, I don't remember, but I'm like, I'm hunched over, clutching this seltzer, wishing for the end times.

Starting point is 00:08:08 Oh yeah. It's been like this episode recording where like your webcam froze with you with your head in your hands. I thought, well, this is funny. And then it continued and we're like, is Liam okay? Have we broken Liam? And then you and Lincoln's son. like, is Liam okay? Have we broken Liam? Uh... And genuinely concerned. No, it's just fucking Zencaster again. Before we talk about the end times, we have announcements. Oh, we do have announcements, I forgot to put the slide in. Oh, that's fine, we can sing it. We can put it in post. We have a tour, if you wanna find out where it is, go to our subreddit, scroll past all the threads, making fun of me for not knowing

Starting point is 00:08:48 what I'm talking about. And yeah, it'll be on there, there are dates. JUSTIN It'll also be in the description as well. ALICE That's way simpler, yeah. JUSTIN Yeah, exactly. We're nearly sold out in Washington DC. ALICE We are sold out in DC dude. JUSTIN We are sold out in Washington DC. We are sold out in DC dude. We are sold out in DC. Damn sold out in DC.

Starting point is 00:09:06 If you want to come see us on a Tuesday in New York, there are still tickets to that show. There are still a good amount of tickets left at the Fillmore. We do need to fill more seats at the Fillmore. Did you see the email we got today from an unnamed venue that didn't want us there the first time? No I didn't. And then I come crawling back. They all bend the knee. They all bend the knee. I texted my wife as soon as I got that fuckin' email and I was like, and it was, actually I could name the venue that really didn't want us, uh, because we're never gonna play

Starting point is 00:09:36 there as long as I can help it. Which is, uh, World Cafe Live, what's up you motherfuckers? I couldn't think of another venue that, yeah, that's the only one, I knew they didn't like us. Um, anyway. ALICE Oh, I was seeing the subreddit. Sorry, I've been trying not to obsess over this fucking thing for like, two days now. JUSTIN Okay.

Starting point is 00:09:55 Okay. Don't look at the subreddit. ALICE No. JUSTIN You know, and, uh, anyway- ALICE Never go on Reddit. Why should you be able to get a sentence off? JUSTIN I mean, I disparaged World Cafe Live, sense of world cafe live, although I already did that. But well, yeah, that's a good point.

Starting point is 00:10:07 Yeah. Well. OK. Oh, that would take that tone. Yeah. Let's do the goddamn news before we impugn anyone else. Barely, barely impugned them. I love you all so so much. We're gonna have to take a couple mulligans on the goddamn newsroom last week. Fuck that up real bad. I asked you fuckers for a decade where weeks happen, and what did I get?

Starting point is 00:10:41 More weeks where decades happen. I was about to say, yeah, I mean, especially given the release cycle of this podcast, some even more wild shit will have happened by the time this comes out. Anyway, so while we were recording the previous episode, the wildfires were really bad in Los Angeles, and they got significantly worse over the course of recording them. So I said something along the lines of, well, it's only affecting the houses of the multi-millionaires and the billionaires, hasn't come down the mountain, down to the ordinary millionaires. No, it pretty much destroyed the entire town of Altadena.

Starting point is 00:11:17 ALICE Yeah, Altadena's like, destroyed now. It's really bad. And I mean, this is kind of a general problem with the goddamn news, generally, right? Is that, first of all, it moves faster than we do, because we're a very lethargic and sluggish podcast. We like to conserve energy. ALICE And my tummy hurts. ALICE All of our tummies hurt.

Starting point is 00:11:37 But also, we're trying to do a comedy podcast about horrible things. And it's genuinely like, we don't always hit the tone that we want to. Yeah, and I think this was one of them, right, where, I mean, it's not even out yet, so I don't even know, but like, it's one of those things where we were really on a tightrope there, of trying to be like, what can we possibly say about this? And that's more and more, you know? But I think it's still worth doing, it's just, you know, how are we not gonna talk about a bunch of cars getting crushed by a bulldozer?

Starting point is 00:12:17 ALICE This is one of those things where we think about, some things are best left to stew and look at the aftermath, but some things, some things are best left to stew and, and, and look at the aftermath, but some things are so apocalyptic that you've got to, it'd be, it'd be a bit, you know, we'd be get caught, you know, we'd get called out if we didn't engage with it. Right. Yeah. So it's good point. You know, and now we're in, we're starting to look into the cleanup section of the, uh, the, the, the whole situation and it's like Gavin Newsom has decided, okay, we're going to suspend environmental laws so we can rebuild more quickly on these places that probably shouldn't have houses on them. ALICE Yeah, we're gonna build them even more shoddily,

Starting point is 00:12:54 and even more fire prone, just to build them back quicker. LIAM Build them out of balsa, right. Build back better. Build back better balsa. ALICE Build back burner. JUSTIN Exactly. And God forbid you put any multifamily in there, or like, you know, try and concentrate housing in areas that are less fire-prone.

Starting point is 00:13:11 No, it's gonna be all single-family homes forever. As a kind of, like, Glasgow resident, I have some exposure of this strange phenomenon whereby anything burning down somehow turns to property developers' advantage. And... ALICE Every time. ALICE Yeah, it's a real mystery, right? I'm not sure...

Starting point is 00:13:31 RILEY Well, in this case, maybe we'll get away with it because none of the new houses will be insurable. So, we do have that on our side. ALICE Yeah. RILEY 50 stories of apartments on top of the Charles Rennie Macintosh school, yeah. ALICE & LIAM laugh. Yep.

Starting point is 00:13:47 ALICE & LIAM. It's one damn fortified suppression system. JUSTIN. It's burned down again, it's time to put another fifty stories on top. ALICE & LIAM. Yeah. Every single time, it just grows, it just becomes Taipei 101 after two fires. JUSTIN.

Starting point is 00:14:02 Yeah. Yeah, so this is fucking horrifying, as ever. I feel like most of what we talk about now is fucking horrifying. Yeah. Yeah, I was following Noah's feet closely on the night, even after we finished recording actually when I should have been in bed because it was 2am, but I have to say it was pretty harrowing watching it again. Yeah, watching it going through Altadena was just, yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:24 And then of course all the misinformation happened, because the number of AI generated pictures of like Lamborghinis with fire around them and shit, and then was being spewed out. It's just like, we really are in the fucking end times. A lot of conspiracies around it too, there's a lot of, you know, people saying, oh my god, you know, the space laser, you know, it's a space laser again. No, Liam, you gotta be more careful with that thing. I, well, I shouldn't be drunk when I operate it, but that's neither here nor there. And what else, the, uh, you know, the insufficient water supply to the, you know, high pressure

Starting point is 00:14:59 system is like, somehow, was deliberate or something. No, I just think that this is a larger fire than was anticipated for the water system. Well, it was deliberate in the sense that California decided all the water should go to that one couple that grew pistachios, but otherwise... The resnicks, yeah. Yeah. I don't think like, Antifa were going around starting fires, like people were afraid of. I mean, yeah, starting fires, like people were afraid of. I mean, yeah, the other thing about this is that it might not do no gods no mayors end

Starting point is 00:15:30 the career of the mayor of Los Angeles, Karen Bass, because she was on vacation for much of this, and then has fucked up every single press conference she's done in a new and, like, alarming way. And the most recent one I saw was where she was asked, like, okay, well do you feel bad that you're on vacation, do you think you should've come back earlier? She's like, no, no, I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I-

Starting point is 00:15:54 I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I- I I wouldn't have helped, but, you know, yeah, you probably have to at least say, yeah, I should be there. ALICE It's a real question, anticipating the answer, yes, right? JUSTIN Well, I mean, good on her for doing self-care and not making a job, or like... ALICE For doing self-care and not doing work-life

Starting point is 00:16:17 balance? How dare you? Yes. JUSTIN We'll also point out that the fires are still going. JUSTIN Oh, yeah. ALICE Yeah. They're a lot more contained than they were when we recorded them last week, but they

Starting point is 00:16:33 are still going. JUSTIN More favorable winds and stuff, right, so it has slowed down, but yeah. ALICE The real winners here are the guys who like to draw exquisite art of planes, because like, if you wanna see some like really really beautiful art of, you know, the Boeing Supertanker, or whatever, there's a bunch of guys on Twitter who have got you covered, and they're all like, you think we feel bad, or feel conflicted, they're all like, oh, I mean, obviously it's not a good thing, it's a really bad thing, and I feel for everyone involved, but I love this fuckin' plane so bad, and,

Starting point is 00:17:09 you know what, I respect that a great deal, having a kind of, like, deep attraction to the spirit of John Muir. ALICE and PLANE. PLANE. Plane's what? The people, the people, the... They wanna fuck the plane. They wanna fuck the plane!

Starting point is 00:17:23 And honestly, it's like, a noble calling, as far as I'm concerned. If they're putting out art like this, it's like saying that, like, you know, Michelangelo wanted to fuck the statues. It's like, okay, fine, worth it, I guess. You know? Like, reminded of a very very... One thing I did notice was the drones, right? The people were flying over and taking drone footage and crashing

Starting point is 00:17:45 into firefighting planes. Yeah. They put a whole lot of wings of one of them like grounded all the like fixed wing fire fighters. There were, there were restrictions, flight restrictions, like very well advertised flight restrictions out for these guys out kind of getting glory hunting drone shots, um, that they were to be grounded and nope, they were just up and flying. It's just, yeah. Not good. Stupid drones. Yeah. And yeah, like, that grounded that firefighting aircraft, so that was less firefighting capacity against these fires. So great work, the guys flying

Starting point is 00:18:16 the drones around. ALICE The other thing that I wanted to mention about this is, you know, of course that California continues to use present labor as firefighting, like, in the, I think, hundreds of people here. And this is coercive, it's like, functionally slave labor. And I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to talk about the UAE or Saudi and talk about Kofala and not mention this here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:49 I mean, it's definitely a... it's a hell of a system they have out there in California, I'm glad. Yeah, I'm just sometimes like, thank god I don't live there. Yeah, and it's one of those things where it's like, knowing that this is gonna get worse every year, and seeing how precarious it is this year and how bad it is this year, you just think, y'know, this is just gonna get more and more tenuous until something's gonna break seriously. And I mean, this is what it looks like when it works just about, and it's still like... JUSTIN That was about to say, this is not as... not anywhere as bad as it could have been.

Starting point is 00:19:28 But it was still exponentially worse than anything else that's happening there. Yeah, like, looking at like, you know, hundreds of people getting their houses burned down, thousands of people getting evacuated, and'know, whatever death toll it turns out to be, and going, well, y'know, this is the success story, right? It just feels like the success story gets a little bit less successful all the time. Yes. However, there was a success story. In other news...

Starting point is 00:19:59 Oh, nailed that. So, uh... Yeah, so there's a ceasefire in Gaza. You hate to say it, but deals really are the man's art form. I'm kinda, I was like, y'know, it did seem like for a while there, there were some people who were contrarians, who were just like, well maybe Trump'll negotiate a ceasefire. And I was like, nah, he'll never do that. Anyway, he did that.

Starting point is 00:20:27 ALICE Yeah. Like, I remember seeing, there was one of the dumbest motherfuckers to ever do it, Matt Iglesias, posted, like, maybe I'm an out of touch elitist, but people really seem to think that there's a ceasefire button in Biden's office that he's refusing to press. And then Donald Trump confusing it with the Diet Coke summoning button, pressed that button by accident, and... And lo and behold.

Starting point is 00:20:58 Lo and behold, you get a ceasefire. Which has not happened yet, to be clear, as well as still bombing Gaza, it's still killing people. METEORITZ They never respect ceasefires, right? They're still bombing, they're still attacking and bombing and wrecking up Lebanon's sovereignty, right? ALICE Absolutely, but there also is this kind of institutional knowledge in the IDF that what you do in the face of a ceasefire is you try and take and

Starting point is 00:21:24 hold as much territory and inflict as much damage as you can before it starts to try and get the most favorable position. They're not very good at not using their guns on the IDF. You know, they're very much like, I don't know, maybe they all got carpal tunnel syndrome so they're firing their guns constantly when they're holding them. I mean, it's... They're also not very good at using their guns constantly when they're holding them. I mean, it's... Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:45 They're also not very good at using their guns, because I would not describe anything that the IDF have done as being precise or... Competent, or good, or anything like that. Yeah. They are moral, however. In fact, the most moral. The most moral. So we keep hearing.

Starting point is 00:22:01 But yeah, so, if this works, which it may still not, but I think everyone hopes that it does. Israel's also around a fire. Yeah. But what the fuck happens next? Well, so what happens next is there's an exchange of, like, all of the hostages for about, like, a thousand Palestinian... I'll say hostages as well, right?

Starting point is 00:22:24 Which gives you a sense of scale in terms of, like, number of Palestinians held prisoner in Israel, versus number of Israelis held prisoner in Gaza. And then, theoretically, there's, like, an Israeli withdrawal, there's no, like, mention of, sort of, like, interdicting Hamas from governing Gaza, so they're gonna do that again, and supposedly everybody gets to go back to what is left of their homes, including in the north of Gaza. RILEY It's about to say the reconstruction here is gonna take a very very long time, especially if any of those Israeli material restrictions are still in place. Yeah, who's going to go in and do it? Because, you know, the residents of Gaza are unbelievably

Starting point is 00:23:08 sort of creative and resourceful, but there's only so much you can do with sort of like, like toxic, the genuinely toxic rubble that has been left behind by Israel. Yeah, I mean the Biden plan- It's all full of like as bestes and crap, yeah. The Biden plan, you know, I don't wanna dignify it with the name, right, was vaguely gestured at the idea of, like, the Gulf states and Saudi were gonna come in and invest, which we'll see. Turn a Gaza Strip into Neom.

Starting point is 00:23:43 Yeah, I was gonna say, it was a pretty beautiful city before, it'd be fucking horrible if the Emiratis get their hands on it, Jesus. Yeah. But, I mean, I don't know, right? And I don't know that many people do, really. But, y'know, as a starting point, this is, y'know, it's better than more bombing. Yeah, it's better than not being bombed. Maybe you can find the time to reinstall some windows or something.

Starting point is 00:24:13 Yeah. I mean, over the course of the war, right, we didn't see it turn into a regional war. We did see, like, Iran strike Israel, which was fucking wild, but it didn't, like, broaden beyond that. ALICE Yeah, we're very thankful for that, I guess, yeah. ALICE On the other hand, you know, sort of like, Gaza has been sort of functionally destroyed, Lebanon has been brutalized, Syria has had half this mountain stolen off of it, and Hamas and Hezbollah have been decimated, and god knows what that looks like as they try and rebuild.

Starting point is 00:24:51 Right? It's bad to say, I don't think... I think that when we get the final death toll figures, if they're able to be figured out, because I believe they destroyed all the records in Gaza, it's gonna be an ugly number, it's gonna be a very ugly number, I think it's gonna be a lot worse than anything the health ministry has put out. Yeah. And I mean, ultimately, like, what you hope for is still war crimes prosecutions, right?

Starting point is 00:25:17 You hope for, like, Israeli leadership to end up in the fucking Hague, but it really seems like this is just the best you can get for the moment. Right? And, I mean, for the people of Gaza to have survived this long, those that have, and to have endured these crimes, is sort of like, this incredible testament, right, but also just kind of horrifying in terms of what the implications are for the future, not just in Gaza, but anywhere. Right?

Starting point is 00:25:49 I think having this kind of outcome of, like, well, nothing really changes except you do all the crimes, you get away with it, and then I think the feeling in Israel is as likely as not to be, well, in a few years we just do it all over again. Right? If that's the feeling, then it's not going to kind of deter anyone from doing the same thing anywhere else. Mason- Except when we were growing up, Nova, you and I, same age pretty much, the big news injustice that I sort of grew up with, that I remember, the first one that I remember actually was, was growing up very little, but it was the siege of Sarajevo, right? And this is this, this incredible urban siege of, you know, awful experience for the,

Starting point is 00:26:30 for the residents of, of Sarajevo as the, um, as the Serbs, uh, you know, um, kind of basically besieged your sniper rifles, firing missiles, just, just obliterating their city and attacking the city and making life miserable. And that, you know, that was a, that looks like a walk in the park compared to what is, what, what we've seen happen to Gaza city and to the whole Gaza strip. It's just incomprehensible, absolutely inconceivable cruelty and destruction. And I just, it will say a lot. And I know that, that I know that they will rebuild because you can see we've seen the resilience of the of the Palestinian people over the last sort of year and a half. But the but but I mean they will rebuild and it'll be incredible they will and you know, but it's there. What's the long term future for them? I think what is this? And we're

Starting point is 00:27:19 just going to cycle into this again probably. And that's depressing as fuck. ALICE Yeah. JUSTIN We gotta give the Palestinians their own iron dome. ALICE Yeah, genuinely. JUSTIN Yeah. Give them the nuke. ALICE Yeah, why not. JUSTIN Yeah. Sure. Let's go with that, yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:36 ALICE Dude, just, like, kicking yourself into the sort of top left, uh, no, bottom left, libertarian leftist quadrant of the political compass, and be like, everybody's sovereignty enforced by nuclear weapons. I mean, at this point I've heard worse ideas, y'know? Yes. Okay, we've found a long-lasting solution to the crisis. Yeah, exactly. Arm everyone with nuclear weapons.

Starting point is 00:27:58 Everyone witnessed me fill my stance on nuclear disarmament in real time, yeah. Let's go. Nuclear armament, we're just giving them out. Doing like, evangelism, like a stack of suitcase nukes on like a stall in downtown. Take the liberal centrist stance, that you deliver the nuke via the US little jetty they built. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it.

Starting point is 00:28:21 That's not even still there. No, it's gone. That last one was like a week. It's fucked, it's fucked, it's sucked into that. Excuse me, sir, have you heard the good news of our Lord and Savior, the Davy Crockett? Davy Crockett. Yup. Alright, well that was depressing, but let's go to a piece of fun news.

Starting point is 00:28:41 Which we also got wrong in the last episode. Yeah, so we're just done now. Yeah, after two years of this thing taking up all the space, politically discourse wise, in the city of Philadelphia, the downtown or the center city, Sixers Arena, has been at the very last second, after all the legislation was passed, people got arrested, you know, all this crap, they're like, nah, we're gonna stay in South Philly. ALICE resistance to all oppressors, give the residents of Chinatown a nuke. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:29:19 Yep. It's my understanding, is this has something to do with NBC getting the broadcast rights to the NBA. Some kind of shady backroom deal occurred. And consider, I know at least some people who think Mayor Parker stole the election specifically to get this project through. What? No, we ran two candidates who believe the exact same thing against each other, and Cheryl

Starting point is 00:29:48 Barker won. Ahhhh. Liam, have you and Tom been covering this at all on 10k losses? Yes, we're covering it on Friday actually, but we haven't yet. Oh, okay, so yeah, I look forward to doing it, because I don't know what the fuck's going on, and I'm fascinated to know your take. You didn't know it, bud. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:04 Yeah, okay, there's a lot of stuff here that really is beyond me. In the last episode I was definitely like, you know, because it's hard to find a reason to be firmly against this, at least for me. Because otherwise the campaigners would have found, oh sorry, to be against it, sorry, forgive me, yeah, okay, fair point. I was thinking like a legal thing to topple it and they hadn't found it, but you know, to actually be against it, fair enough. Yeah, because it was kind of like, okay, I mean, the ball is not that great.

Starting point is 00:30:34 You know, it would wreck the train station for a while. Well, possibly permanently, because you would have less light coming in there. But you know, it didn't seem like, conceptually, a terrible idea. But when you realize, oh wait, the whole thing was bait and switch, I mean, it would be hard to be against it, particularly for that reason, through the whole process, but I feel like everyone who was against it is vindicated. You know, and it is really funny to see our city council try and, you know, spin this as some sort of win, when they all just, you know, expended all the political capital they have to get this thing forced through.

Starting point is 00:31:13 It's, it's kinda... It's incredible. I don't know, it's really funny that it's not happening. ALICE All this over what looks like a kind of like a big picnic basket or a mall in a sort of Central Asian country. JUSTIN Yeah. ALICE Exactly.

Starting point is 00:31:31 You know, the- JUSTIN Our whole architecture is shit nowadays. I mean, what the fuck is this? It's just, ugh. ALICE This is Ulan Batur's premier shopping destination. ALICE Exactly, yeah. Oh, the Qatari slash Saudis slash Emiratiification of everything is just... Ugh. JUSTIN Yeah, I mean, what we've sort of wound up with now is I believe the Sixers now own just two huge chunks of Center City real estate.

Starting point is 00:32:00 ALICE They should lean into this. They should have it be like a feudal liberty, like the Savoy, you know, where it's like, these two blocks, that's basically how the city of London started, just do that, just be like, this whole area is under the jurisdiction of the 76ers. ALICE Oh, the fiefdom. ALICE Yeah, you get arrested by the basketball cops. JUSTIN Oh, that'll be like a Keystone Opportunity Zone, but more. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:27 Maybe you pay all your taxes directly to the Sixers. The Philadelphia 76ers, economics, like, exclusive economic area, or whatever. Arm the Sixers with a nuke! Yeah. Chinatown gets a nuke, the Sixers get a nuke, problem solved. Yeah, exactly. Kind of. We gotta, we give every registered community organization a nuke.

Starting point is 00:32:52 Doing this to maintain, you know, we're doing this to maintain the peace. Giving the Green Party of England and Wales a nuke? I kind of support that, yeah, sure. I think Carla Daniel should have a nuke. Yeah, exactly, give Carla... yeah, that would be... I would like that, yeah. I've spun them on HS2, now we can flip them on something that I also don't agree with, which is nuclear proliferation.

Starting point is 00:33:21 Let's crack on. Yeah. Greenham Common War Camp. Let's crack on. ALICE and TORMUNTER Yeah. Greenham Common war camp. I guess that is just the base at Greenham Common. I was trying to conceptualize the opposite of the peace camp, and it's just like, that's just the thing they're outside the wire of. RILEY Exactly, you just let them in.

Starting point is 00:33:39 Yeah. Give them all a lanyard. JUSTIN So, yeah, this is very funny. I mean, there's nothing you can say about it other than this is really, really funny. Yeah, this is not one I feel morally conflicted about. I feel pretty good about this one. Just very funny, yeah. Well, that was the goddamn news.

Starting point is 00:33:57 Get mad at us in the comments. I'm sure they will. Okay. Alright. So, let's start the Socratic method here. I hate it when we do this. Yeah. What is Washington national airport? Hell. It's very bumpy. It's very greebled. This is a greeble.

Starting point is 00:34:14 That's great. It is. It says that they've really, that, or it looks like it's been, it's one of those models that you make out of just like cereal boxes with a Stanley knife. Very carefully. You had to make it 4 AM because your kid was like, I have a project due tomorrow and I haven't started it yet. Yeah. First day using my lathe and I've made the air traffic control tower at Washington national

Starting point is 00:34:37 level. I actually quite like the interior of this airport. It's sort of, it was all designed by Caesar Peli. It's all, it's got a bunch of yellow decorative iron work in it. Yeah, it's actually like a big Pomo doodad. Or is it high tech? It looks a bit high tech.

Starting point is 00:34:55 Almost Art Nouveau. Hold on, let me get a picture here. And I mean, you know, good, sort of nice views of the planes, if you're one of those guys who likes to, who wants to fuck the planes. As we all do. Yeah. I don't necessarily want to fuck the planes, I just want to pick out the 737 Max's and laugh at them.

Starting point is 00:35:14 Hold on. Here we go. Plane shaming? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah, you're tight bowing. Okay, here's what the inside looks like. Oh, that's lovely. That's great. That's very nice. Kind of like, you know...ate Boeing. OK, here's what the inside looks like. Oh, that's lovely.

Starting point is 00:35:25 That's very nice. Kind of kind of like, you know, cathedral, I was going to say secular cathedral without the vault. Yeah. Fair play. I actually quite like that. I guess it is Pomo. It's a very, very Pomo. I like that. Very, very modern. Yeah. OK. But a bit of Pomo.

Starting point is 00:35:40 Sorry that none of us have answered the question you've said. Ross, it's true. Washington National Airport is the airport you've set us, Ross. It's true. No, fuck em. Washington's National Airport is the airport in Washington, DC. It's the land of contracts. Yes, but it's not actually in Washington, DC, it's in Arlington. Oh, fuck. Or isn't it in Alexandria?

Starting point is 00:35:54 I don't remember. It's in one of the kind of hellscapes that surround the District of Columbia. It is in Northern Virginia. It's an airport that congresspeople like... Technically Crystal City, I think, but who gives a shit about that? Well I think Crystal City is unincorporated. I believe you're right, yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:13 So, this is an airport that congressmen like to get mad at. Ah. Reasonable. Kinda like Westminster Tube station. Yeah. Um, cause there's, it's Washington DC's local airport. That's why you call it a national airport? Yep. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. There's one further away, Washington Dulles International Airport.

Starting point is 00:36:31 That's where the long haul flights are supposed to come in. Yeah. That's the one I know about. Yeah. This one is supposed to be more for regional flights. I think there's like a hard limit on, um, flights coming into this airport of like 1250 miles. But every once in a while a congressman gets mad that there isn't a direct flight from where they live to the airport and they submit some legislation that then lets one flight violate that rule. Incredible. That's kind of like the MP wanting a direct train to their constituency to London situation in the UK.

Starting point is 00:37:07 That's pretty similar. Yeah, exactly. It's literally the same thing, yeah. So this airport has two names, it's National Airport if you're a Democrat or left leaning, and it's Ronald Reagan, Washington National Airport if you're a Republican or you lean right. ALICE Ronald Reagan and Alan Dallas, what a pair of... I guess it's John Foster Dallas, but still, what a pair of guys to name your airports after.

Starting point is 00:37:33 JUSTIN Exactly. On the British side, Thurgood Marshall got BWI. ALICE Kind of perverse to name an airport after a guy with one of the biggest influences in causing 9-11. But... ALICE And who, y'know, fired all the air traffic controllers. LIAM And also physically, one of the least aerodynamic presidents I think the US has ever had. ALICE I believe that's right.

Starting point is 00:37:57 ALICE Doing graphing presidents by aerodynamic quality is a great... RILEY What's their bluff body ratio? Yeah. Johnson loses this in a landslide. No, no, no. It's taft. Taft is the least aerodynamic president. There was a buoyant president though.

Starting point is 00:38:13 Great shit. Terrible aircraft. Possibly a good air balloon. Graphing presidents by land speed, air speed, and buoyancy. JUSTIN Imagine a president that's perfectly spherical, and of uniform density. ALICE Yeah, William Howard Tuft. JUSTIN Yeah. This airport was, I guess not an early get, I guess it was sort of in the medium term

Starting point is 00:38:39 of, you know, the Ronald Reagan Memorial Committee on naming things after Ronald Reagan. They could have named the committee, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, this was... lots of things got named after Ronald Reagan in like the 90s. I believe the air traffic controller still refused to call it Ronald Reagan, Washington National Airport. They just say... It's interesting, because... They just say National Airport.

Starting point is 00:39:03 There's very little that's named the Margaret Thatcher X, Y, or Z in the UK, so yeah, it did better than its contemporary on this side of the puddle. Mm. But this is the airport that's like, close in to Washington DC. We'll see how close in shortly. Now, another important thing is, what is the 14th Street Bridge complex? Oh god. This is some real, like, me playing Cities Skylines gore. Yes!

Starting point is 00:39:29 Of figuring out four different times that I need to cross this body of water. Yes. Yeah, testing out the different vanilla bridge types that you get, on a row. Yeah, uh huh. I should throw a rail bridge on there too, probably, I guess. I gotta be thorough, right? Yeah. And we just ran the corner from, of course, where the Triskelion is here.

Starting point is 00:39:51 That's just round the corner. That is actually sort of how that works. How that worked on this one. There has been some kind of bridge on this location since 1809. Generally with some kind of draw span on it. So from bottom to top here, this is the 1904 Long Bridge. Why is it called the Long Bridge? ALICE Yeah, it's pretty long, it's like a mile.

Starting point is 00:40:14 JUSTIN Yeah. ALICE Dang. I was hoping for a guy named Long. ALICE YOU ARE LONG! RIDE AGAIN! JUSTIN Isaiah Long, the third, or something. Yeah. This is built in 1904 to replace the previous structure. Here is the 1983 Charles R Fenwick bridge that carries the Metro over the river.

Starting point is 00:40:35 Okay. So we're two for two on rail bridges. Happy with that. Nice. There will soon actually be a third one, I think downstream of the long bridge here for extra capacity for the commuter trains. ALICE Nice!

Starting point is 00:40:48 Big rail, love it. JUSTIN I mean, it's taken them ten years to plan a bridge over a three foot deep river, but that's a different conversation. This is the 1950, formerly called the Rochambeau Bridge, which carries... Star in Louisiana, I guess. This is now the Arlen D. Williams Jr. Memorial Bridge. That'll come up later. That carries I-395 northbound.

Starting point is 00:41:20 This is the 1971 current Rochambeau Bridge that carries the I-395 Express Lanes, which from experience, not very express. And then at the very top here, this is the 1962 George Mason Memorial Bridge, which carries I-95, or I-395 Southbound. And one of the fun things about this spot is that when you're going over it, either on a train or on the metro or in a car, you can see every form of transportation. You can see boats, but you can also see planes flying very low overhead. ALICE You get a little achievement if you're here.

Starting point is 00:41:59 JUSTIN Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You get an achievement if you see a boat, and a plane, and a train, and a car, and a truck, and a bus all at the same time. So the three- That's actually what determines if you get to heaven. Like, it's unfair, and it's not written down anywhere in the Bible or anything, but that is what it is. If you, like, you know, died before the invention of any of those things, you were kind of fucked.

Starting point is 00:42:22 Sucks to suck. Sucks to suck. Yeah. Now those are, the three bridges, the three kind of bridges in the first three, do they all have a drawbridge? Do all of them have a lifty bit? So the Long Bridge has a drawspan, the Rochambeau Bridge has a drawspan, or the former Rochambeau Bridge has a drawspan, the Yellow Line Bridge does not have a draw span because they actually decided

Starting point is 00:42:45 when they built the two northern spans, yeah, we really don't need boats coming up this far in the morning. Yeah, fuck you boats. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, okay, fair enough. Yeah, I'll help them with that. So, I think the last time either of these two bridges opened was 1967. Okay, yeah, fine. Finding myself very opinionated this episode. I'm changing my opinions on nukes, and I'm very anti-boat. Just some emerging opinions.

Starting point is 00:43:10 Throw nuke, anti-boat. Nuked every boat. That's it. The only thing about it is I do think, okay, the next bridge up the river, the Memorial Bridge, that had the wildest draw span I think I've ever been designed, which was also welded shut as a result. Let me see if I can find a picture of this. Hold on.

Starting point is 00:43:33 No, there's no way I'm finding this quickly. God damn it. Fuck you. Google now utterly useless. Thank you! Google, now utterly useless. Thank you Google. Thank you. Thank you AI. We love your slop.

Starting point is 00:43:50 Okay, here we go. What in the goddamn shit is this? What? Why would you do it that way? That looks like a big key parenthesis. That's a thing to keep Andreessen's head in place. Like, what? Yeah. No, what? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:05 No, they kept the... cause the rest of the bridge are these sort of low large arches, right? So the actual drawspan was the same kind of arch done in cast iron, and then they had to... Yeah. It's a nice idea, but it looks like it's been designed to capture a kaiju. Like what? What?

Starting point is 00:44:23 Didn't they use this in Skyrim? This is what it looks like closed. Yeah, it's very nice. They've done a nice job. It's a lovely flat, shallow arch that. It's nice. It's lovely. But I have no idea when the last time that opened. It was probably earlier than 1967. Many years ago. That's all welded shut. Cowards.

Starting point is 00:44:44 Yeah. So we've got boats. So we've got trains. We've got buses. We've got cars. We've got trucks. We've got boats and we've got planes all in the same place. Why? Why? Why? Why? The express lanes here were actually supposed to originally be bus only lanes. And then they gave up and made them high occupancy vehicle lanes.

Starting point is 00:45:01 Oh, that's that's sad. Yeah. But this is all the bridges are right here, because, eh, I guess it's a convenient spot to put them. That's where you all go. That's where we go to hang out. And they all converge sort of into 14th Street or into I-395, which goes east-west through DC. So, and of course they are located.

Starting point is 00:45:23 If we look, okay, here's the White House, right, here's the Capitol, here's Jesus Station. Jesus Christ, how did the Pentagon not get like, 9-11'd earlier? It's in line with one of the runways! Yes, the Pentagon is in line with one of the runways. I don't think they usually take off going that direction. They gotta do a whole different approach and shit, it's real weird. But yeah, here's the 14th Street bridges, here is the airport, here's the Pentagon,

Starting point is 00:45:48 what else is interesting here? Just, just like, I'm visualizing flight restrictions in my head, and I'm seeing like, big red and orange shapes tessellating with each other overlapping in shapes. You deviate from your flight plan by like a tenth of an inch and you're shot down by a Patriot missile. Right, Sam Batarie. Right to the dome, yeah. Not quite, but yes, the approach and departure routes from this airport are very strict.

Starting point is 00:46:19 They're very specific, yeah. This is a kind of pilot nightmare to me, in my imagination. This is running the gauntlet, because if you... One fell swoop and you are Chunky Marinara, and everybody you've ever known is Chunky Marinara. There were some really bizarre restrictions on flights in and out of the airport just after 9-11, like, you know, obviously. Oh yeah, like the passenger amount, right?

Starting point is 00:46:43 Wasn't that restricted? They restricted the number of passengers on the flight. One of the restrictions was, I believe, if a passenger stood up within 30 minutes of arrival or departure, the plane had to be redirected to a nearby military base. Instantly turned into chaff. Oh no, okay. Oh right, yeah. Incredible.

Starting point is 00:47:04 Under fighter jet escort. I have to go to the bathroom and I get everybody cavity searched by the fans. Yeah, that's it. The actual approach into the airport is the river approach, so you come... As you get towards Roslyn here, which, annoyingly, has a bunch of tall buildings, the river visual just brings you down the river and onto the runway. And, cause, you know, right next to you, very restricted airspace, and then even more restricted

Starting point is 00:47:35 airspace. So, yeah. Figure it out. Don't fuck that up, kids. Don't fuck it up, yeah. I guess if you're gonna be a commercial airline pilot they kind of select against you having anxiety, but this seems like a great way to start, y'know? Yeah, I would, oh, we would be the opposite of Sully the Hudson, we would be in the Potomac,

Starting point is 00:47:57 but none of us would get that alive out of this, but... Yeah, shredded aluminium type situation. I'd have anxiety doing this in flight simulator, I'd worry the FBI would show up to my door if I messed up. Surely it would be like the FAA cops, right? Does the FAA have cops? They gotta have cops. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:18 Yeah. We're preemptively revoking your pilot's license even though you don't have one. The FAA SWAT team? Just come and break your yoke off your desk? LIAM Open up, FAA! ALICE They've gotta, they've surely gotta have a... RILEY Uh, is it on an artificial island, or did

Starting point is 00:48:39 it just completely sack off a nice natural island to build? RILEY Big chunk of this is Phil, I wanna say. JUSTIN Interesting. ALICE But I'm not 100% certain about that. LIAM If it's a real island, it's probably one of the ones where like, Aaron Burr was getting into duels and shit, y'know? ALICE Yeah, and this airport is in its second location, cause it actually used to be where the Pentagon is.

Starting point is 00:49:00 ALICE Oh. ALICE Which must have been very confusing, if you were trying to... JUSTIN Suddenly all makes sense. Now why aviation had a vendetta against the Pentagon? Ah, because they made a move house. Okay. All making more sense. Okay, right. So our next question. What is Air Florida? It feels like the aircraft, it feels like the common carrier of my fucking nightmares. Feels like the plane should have a mullet

Starting point is 00:49:26 Yeah, yes here back left on the tail Business class in the front party class in the back. Yeah It's got a little mustache. Yeah, yeah, so pilot tries to get your attention by saying where you is every 15 minutes So air Florida was originally an intrastate railroad, a big airline, that railroad airline. It would have been a lot cooler if Air Florida were a railroad, dude. Yeah, that would be very Florida. So bright light with wings.

Starting point is 00:49:59 Well, they did have the seaboard airline. So this was founded in 1971 with one airplane, which was an Expan Am Boeing 707. You gotta start somewhere. Weak sauce. A one plane airline is a really compelling bit to me. Like, you're just hanging out, basically. Yeah. As the airline only flew within the state of Florida It was not subject to regulation of routes and ticket prices and so on and so forth that interstate airlines

Starting point is 00:50:32 Like a loophole like the FAA can't touch you because you're regulated by the way worse Florida Aviation Authority back back then it was the Civil Aviation Board, but basically yes Oh god. Back then it was the Civil Aviation Board, but basically yes. In 1978, well, okay, so despite not being subject to regulations, the airline still lost money hand over fist, it was not profitable. They still fumbled the bag despite the fact they weren't- oh, brilliant. Nice work, okay good. In 1978, Congress passed the Airline Deregulation Act. Uh, boo in 1978 Congress passed the airline deregulation act

Starting point is 00:51:08 Now air Florida could easily expand outside the state of Florida and they did actually very successfully They weren't necessarily let's say pioneering the low-cost airline model, but they shared some characteristics Right most notably hiring mainly new and young pilots who would settle for lower wages. ALICE Great, of course. Tremendous. ALICE Paid in exposure. JUSTIN Yeah, exactly. They did not do other things that low-cost airlines do, like having, y'know, all new

Starting point is 00:51:41 airplanes, or like a uniform fleet of airplanes. ALICE Oh boy. Are we just talking like... JUSTIN This must have been some of the jankiest flying you could have done in the time. You know? To be like, hey, do you wanna get on our completely non-uniform fleet of planes and just like, we will pay you dog shit, you will have to... ALICE Get exposure, yeah.

Starting point is 00:52:02 JUSTIN Yeah, you have to live in Jacksonville, and you're doing this basically for flight hours logged. JUSTIN But you don't have to pay extra for a carry on, though, so it's... ALICE Who's to say if it's bad or not, right? JUSTIN Yeah, exactly. ALICE Also really funny to be doing this in the 70s, all of these young pilots are like oh man I can't wait to make it to the big leagues, and the big leagues is like you get hired by, I don't know, Lufthansa or something, Pan Am, and get killed instantly when your plane is blown up by the like, 15 bombs smuggled onto every flight, where you get hijacked and have to

Starting point is 00:52:34 fly it to Libya or whatever the fuck. JUSTIN Oh, we'll get that in a second. ALICE Oh god. JUSTIN Air Florida gets really big really quick, they even manage to expand operations to Europe and South America. What? Europeans shouldn't know about Florida, I'm proof of that, it damages you.

Starting point is 00:52:51 They had a direct flight from Stockholm to Florida. The weirdest accent call. Why are the Swedes going to... What? Florida's like the anti-Sweden, it's the least Swedish place you can possibly imagine. That's why. You know, just a man. Liam, sorry, I'm a Swedish expert.

Starting point is 00:53:10 What the hell are your people doing going to Florida? I have questions. Avenging the, what is it, the Vaga? What was the big ship that we got? The Vasa, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to make them pay for their crimes. I like the idea in my old history universe that the Vasa was sunk by Floridians.

Starting point is 00:53:29 Yeah. And Michael Mouse is no friend of mine. So once deregulation happened, this was the darling of investors. This was the little airline that could, right? Oh boy. It was also a favorite airline of hijackers. Oh. Just, you hijack a plane the pilot's not even really getting paid to be there? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:52 It's like, okay man, whatever, help yourself, you know, you want something out of the galley? On August 10th... Oh, just to see if I can get up. August 10th, 1980, Air Florida Flight 4, 35 people on board operated by a Boeing 737 from Miami International Airport to Key West was taken over by a hijacker who demanded to be flown to Cuba. He later surrendered in Havana. It worked. It worked. 1980 Air Florida flight 707 another Boeing 737 is later flying the opposite direction 74 people on board was hijacked by seven people They demanded to be taken to Cuba but later surrender at this point just do flights to Cuba

Starting point is 00:54:41 February 2nd 1982 Air Florida Flight 710, a Boeing 737-200, with 77 people on board from Miami International to Key West, was hijacked. Why is that even a flight? The hijacker wanted to be taken to Cuba, but later surrendered. It's just, just functionally, that's like a Miami to Havana flight with a loophole, you know? It's like a big leaf over it. JUSTIN July 7th, 1983, Air Florida Flight 8, with 47 people on board, was flying from Fort Lauderdale International Airport to Tampa.

Starting point is 00:55:17 One of the passengers handed a note to one of the flight attendants, saying that he had a bomb, and telling them to fly the plane to Cuba. You don't have to go to Cuba. You don't need the bomb, this is what we normally do, just get comfy. There's just like slightly too loud of a noise from the passenger cabin and on reflex they divert to Havana. There's like one of the buttons in the armrest is just the take the plane to Cuba button. I'm trying to hand a note to the flight attendant asking for another coke, and she doesn't read it, and she just diverts the plane to Cuba.

Starting point is 00:55:59 I read it as Cuba Libre and I got scared. The airplane was diverted to Havana, Jose Marti International Airport, and the hijacker was taken into custody by Cuban authorities. Do you think that's like Cuban shitlives who refuse to call it Jose Marti Airport on the same basis as like Reagan National Airport? Probably, yeah. What happens to these hijackers after they make it to Cuba? I mean, you probably get debriefed by the

Starting point is 00:56:27 Cuban Secret Service, to make sure you're not doing some kind of double agent thing to assassinate Castro. Castro ignores that, comes up and kisses you on the lips for way too long. You instantly fall in love with him, irrespective of gender, and settle down to a beautiful life together. Sounds pretty good, to be honest. Yeah, actually, that sounds pretty good, yeah. Ready to go, or...?

Starting point is 00:56:47 He has a little room by the airport for this. This used to be a motel 8 before... Hi, it's Justin. So this is a commercial for the podcast that you're already listening to. People are annoyed by these, so let me get to the point. We have this thing called Patreon, right? The deal is you give us two bucks a month, and we give you an extra episode once a month. Sometimes it's a little inconsistent, but it's two bucks

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Starting point is 00:58:03 Back to the show. All right. Not all the flights went to Cuba though. Just most of them? Yeah. Let's talk about the airplane. Oh, I don't like that livery, that's kind of upsetting to me, that blue and green colour. Yeah, I don't like livery, but I have to say, I do love a 737-200, but it's a little ditty engine. Oh yeah, the baby slaying.200, but it's a little ditty engine.

Starting point is 00:58:25 They're very sleek. You compare this to the Flippin' Max's, with their enormous bulbous, horrible engines, totally out of balance. These are lovely. Look at those little engines. They're very well proportioned, yeah. This is a Boeing 737-200, built for United Airlines in 1969, registered N62AF, sold to Air Florida in 1980. It's got your-

Starting point is 00:58:50 N62AF. Yeah. This has your old-fashioned, low-bypass, Pratt & Whitney engines and everything. Yeah, sick. The crew is Captain Larry Whedon. He's 34 years old. He has 2322 hours of commercial jet flight time, but he's only done eight takeoffs and landings in snowy conditions.

Starting point is 00:59:10 Oh, fuck. Okay. Foreshadowing. Got you. First Officer Roger Petit is 31. He has 3353 flight hours. He was a former F- He's enormous, actually. But ironically. He's a former F-15 pilot. Has only two takeoffs and landings in snowy conditions. Eww. Okay. I figure once you've made it two times you're like, I can do a third. I'm sure there's no pertinence to the fact that you're mentioning that, Roz, right?

Starting point is 00:59:38 They fly for Air Florida, so y'know, a lot of the airports don't get a lot of snow. How often are you... Yeah, most of the time in Havana it doesn't snow for shit in H often are you... I'm sure this won't come up again. I'm sure there's nothing to be worried about. So on January 13th, 1982, they are gonna take this 737, which just arrived earlier from Miami, to Havana. To Havana, right, of course. Well, we don't know that.

Starting point is 01:00:09 But maybe. They're taking it from Washington National Airport to Fort Lauderdale Hollywood International Airport by way of Tampa. Shouldn't get to call it Hollywood International Airport. It's misleading. It's deceptive marketing. So, you know, this flight is in... fuck you, it's January. So... Going to Fort Lauderdale in January. Uh, okay.

Starting point is 01:00:32 So like, that's like people who missed seeing their elderly relatives for Christmas and they're trying to make it up to them in a hurry, right? Yeah. Sure. Damn, we gotta do Christmas too. Oh no, I hate Christmas too. I don't even really like Christmas one, man. So we got to talk about de-icing airplanes, right? Ooh, okay. So ice and snow can affect the aerodynamic properties of the airplane and make them more difficult to fly or impossible

Starting point is 01:01:02 to fly. Ice and snow can also affect the various sensors on the aircraft and cause instruments to give false readings. Commercial aircraft in flight use bleed air, which is the warm air that comes out of the engines to warm the surface of the wings, but on the ground, this doesn't really work too good because there's not much bleed air to go around. Right. So the aircraft is manually de-iced by guys and cherry pickers, that's these trucks over here, and they spray the goo on the plane.

Starting point is 01:01:33 Some kind of anti-freeze, right? Ethylene-glide oil. Enter the goo! Sometimes isopropyl alcohol, sometimes some kind of salt solution, maybe some Austrian wine, right? They spray that all over, they're never gonna live that down. ALICE Not from us. JUSTIN Yeah, they spray that all over the plane until

Starting point is 01:01:56 there's no ice left, and then once you've been de-iced you hightail it to the runway, right? ALICE Yeah, you have these de-icing pads that are designated areas to do this in, right? Yes. In some airports. Yeah, okay, so this is still a time when they hadn't brought in the rules about exactly how long you could be stood post-de-icing before you could take off.

Starting point is 01:02:20 That got tightened up quite a lot, I think, in the nineties, if I'm remembering my crash investigation properly, they actually got tightened up very shortly after this incident. Oh, interesting. Oh, okay. For shadowing. Yeah. Spoiler alert. Okay. Cool. And yeah, it's worth saying. So it's okay. It's worth saying. Yeah. If you get ice on the, on the wing, it's not just that it makes it fly a bit rougher. It can have really weird, unpredictable effects. And those effects can be quite, they can be on set quite suddenly as well. So then the ATR- Yes.

Starting point is 01:02:55 Plane decides it doesn't want to fly anymore. Yeah, exactly. There are lots of popular regional aircraft that are very efficient turboprop type things. But there's one particular ATR aircraft, or family aircraft, that for a long time had a really nasty icing problem, and would just throw itself into the fucking ground if the conditions were perfect for kind of icing and flight. ALICE Oh, perfect.

Starting point is 01:03:20 Playing with intrusive thoughts. Yeah. JUSTIN Literally, yeah. JUSTIN The Boeing 737-200, it was known that if it were improperly de-iced, what it would like to do is to pitch up as steeply as possible. ALICE Oh, hell yeah. JUSTIN Oh! Oh yeah, that's good, I believe. Yes.

Starting point is 01:03:37 Definitely good. ALICE And that could be a good alternative, right? Of all the directions you want a plane to go. JUSTIN Yeah, exactly. ALICE Oh, hopefully it'll go, right? Of all the directions you want a plane to go. JUSTIN Yeah, exactly. ALICE Oh, and hopefully you go up. It's gonna be some rabble. JUSTIN Yeah, they're definitely almost- ALICE Me finding out about a stall for the first

Starting point is 01:03:50 time. What the fuck? JUSTIN I thought if you pull back the plane goes up. ALICE Literally the first officer on that Air France flight that pancaked into the ocean off of Brazil, did that almost verbatim. So yeah. Why would I, why would it be bad for the plane to go too much up? It's where it's supposed to go.

Starting point is 01:04:12 JUSTIN Yeah, exactly. It's where planes live, in the sky. ALICE In the sky. They haven't left one up there yet. JUSTIN Yeah. So airports, airports in snowier climates often have dedicated de-icing pads next to the runway, while those in warmer clines usually require de-icing at the gate. ALICE Isn't DC kind of cold in winter?

Starting point is 01:04:35 Like, that's the whole point of Die Hard 2, I think. JUSTIN It used to be. ALICE Mmm. Yeah. Fuck, okay. Yeah. Hmm. JUSTIN You would get a really good snowstorm, like like once every two years or so, I would say.

Starting point is 01:04:49 I do remember the one week that, you know, we were completely out of school for a whole week, it was great. And that was also the first week in recorded history that the District of Columbia recorded zero murders. Everyone didn't want to go outside, there was too much snow. Oh, good boy. Nice. Then again, John McClane racked up a bunch of murders and that's no storm, so... So National Airport is one of the latter kind, it does not have de-icing pads to this day,

Starting point is 01:05:17 cause this is a very rare occurrence. So you just get your de-icing at the gate. At the gate. And then hope that you get your clearance to fly off the runway fairly quickly. Yes. Hope that you, uh, a little foreshadowing, hope you can make it off the runway. Well indeed, yeah. Don't worry about, don't worry about why I said that, don't worry about why.

Starting point is 01:05:35 Oh, yep, no, just a random set of words. Yeah. Together. I'm just talking crazy. A random, non-portentous set of words from my good friend Liam. Alright, so, this flight is scheduled departure, 12.15, Eastern Standard Time. This is 2.15. 2.15.

Starting point is 01:05:54 Did I say...? You said 12.15. Ah, I'm a moron. Anyway. No you're not, handsome. This is a cool pushback truck. Yeah. Oh, first step.

Starting point is 01:06:03 They're really the three genders there, of like, I'm a moron, no you're not, I love you. Cool truck. Yeah. This is, uh, this is not the truck they used. And therefore you can see it's in blackface, unfortunately, there. Ah, it's gone poorly. So this blizzard had moved in over Washington DC on this day, right? There's very little visibility, the runway was quickly covered in snow, so the airport was closed for about 90 minutes for the sake of snow removal.

Starting point is 01:06:31 ALICE I bet they have a really cool truck for that. Big snow blower type thing. JUSTIN Big snow plow, yeah. So the captain tried to time his de-icing about as close to the airport's reopening time as possible in order to get a good spot in line. Oh no. So first he tried to get it de-iced at 2.30, right? But then the tower called him up and said, you're not moving for another 30 minutes or so, right? So the real de-icing began at 2.50.

Starting point is 01:07:04 This de-icing was done by one guy who had a shift change halfway through. ALICE You never wanna see it. JUSTIN Yeah. So the first guy did the left half of the airplane with a 30-40% glycol solution. ALICE Oh god. Oh dear. JUSTIN The second guy had different temperature readings, and used a 20-30% glycol solution. That's probably not a big deal.

Starting point is 01:07:26 ALICE How hard, how difficult is it for those two guys to talk to each other? JUSTIN To talk to each other? I don't know, they're locked in the little box on top of the truck. ALICE Yeah. Get a radio, you know, I just picture these guys like the last two Jews in Afghanistan where they just like, we just don't talk to each other, we're just mad at each other. So, there's about two to three inches of wet snow on the ground, right?

Starting point is 01:07:54 This pushback truck shows up, right? And try as they might, they can't move the damn aircraft. Oh my god. The tug just spins its wheels in the horrible snow, and slush and glycol goo all over the ramp. Oh no. She goo on my snow now. Is that a thing? Is that something? Yeah. No, I don't know if that's something. It's not. Captain radioed the pushback truck and asked if he wanted them to use the reverse thrust and the guys in the truck said no, it's against company policy.

Starting point is 01:08:30 Also there's certain problems with this plane that can occur if you use reverse thrust in a, you know, icy environment. So please don't do that. Okay, fair enough. So he does that. Oh, okay. Oh. He deploys the big bucket type thrust reversers on his big Pratt & Whitney low bypass turbofan

Starting point is 01:08:53 engine. And the engines roar to life and for about, people say about 30 to 90 seconds, the plane is surrounded by swirling snow, ice, and glycol. When they powered down and everything settled, they had accomplished absolutely nothing." ALICE So what we've done is, like, Dad trying to move family station wagon out of mud by just gunning the engine in the same gear. RILEY Yeah, exactly. And try that again, but in the aircraft.

Starting point is 01:09:24 You love to be the person that the little nerdy kid standing, um, looking out the glass at this aircraft, you know, nosed in towards the building. If it's having to push, push back and use reverse thrust and, and then all of a sudden you just get an absolute like the screaming dirt smacking the window windows are rattling snow snow firing at us, it's reversed, rams up for ninety seconds? Fucking hell. JUSTIN. Pilot sticking his head out the window, trying to figure out what's going on.

Starting point is 01:09:50 ALICE. Yeah, he's like bobbing on the clutch, y'know. ALICE. His eyes are spinning, they're throwing hard at it all over it. Like, there's not a single window you can see out of from the inside. JUSTIN. Yeah. Surprised it didn't shatter windows. I, ugh.

Starting point is 01:10:05 Okay, yeah. So, about 30 minutes pass. At 3.30 a second pushback truck was called. This one had snow chains on it. Ah, boom. Yeah. This worked. Air Florida Flight 90 was now pushed back and ready to taxi to the runway.

Starting point is 01:10:22 There's 74 passengers and five crew on board. 40 minutes since de-icing, I think. Yes. Oh, yeah, okay. So Captain Larry Whedon really wants to get this aircraft off the ground, but he's stuck in line for a long time because everyone else wants to do the same thing. He's a little bit worried about how long it's been since the aircraft would de-iced, but he really, really doesn't want to go back to the gate and do it over again. ALICE.

Starting point is 01:10:48 List of consequences, right. On the one hand, I and everyone else dies. On the other hand, I have to go back and do this shit. I mean, that's relatable. That's absolutely relatable. LIAM. So here we are, this is straight from the report, at 1540, 15, the cockpit voice recorder recorded a comment by the captain, something something, go over to the hangar and get it

Starting point is 01:11:14 de-iced, to which the first officer replied, yeah, definitely. The captain then made some additional comment that was not clear, but contained the word de-iced, to which the first officer again replied, yeah, that's about it. 1540, 42 seconds. The first officer continued to say, it's been a while since we've been de-iced at 1546 and 21 seconds. The captain said, tell you what, my windshield will be de-iced, but I don't know about my wings.

Starting point is 01:11:43 The first officer then commented, well, all we need is the inside of the wings anyway, the wing tips are gonna speed up on 80 anyway, they'll chuck all that other stuff off. Now, can you tell what's happening here? ALICE It's like the opposite of crew resource management. It's two guys trying to negotiate their way to not having to go back to the thing. Yes, the captain has come up with a clever plan that means they don't have to de-ice, which is tailgating. They're just gonna sit behind somebody else?

Starting point is 01:12:19 Genius. The plane in front of them was a DC-9, I believe operated by New York Air, which is another one of those weird regional airlines that existed back then. So he's like, okay, we're gonna get up real close to that plane, DC-9 has the engines all the way in the back, and I'm just gonna let the exhaust from his engines take the ice off the airplane by just sorta wiggling it around, y'know? ALICE You try your best not to make the Florida jokes. But like...

Starting point is 01:12:48 JUSTIN Right. Yeah. I mean, there are other things that extremely high thrust forces can do to your aircraft other than take ice off the wings. And probably wouldn't take ice off the wings at the process. ALICE Yes. This is all kinds of a bad idea. But yeah, he's sorta trying this stunt, it's like, okay, that de-iced the windshield, good.

Starting point is 01:13:11 He tries to de-ice one wing and the other wing, he tries it a couple times, and even almost seems to be working. Just imagine being in the DC-9 and you're like, the guy behind this is wiggling around under our exhaust. Why is he doing this? Yeah, what exactly is going on here? Oh my god, it's like, yeah, it's like when you've got a white BMW up your ass on the fast lane on the M1, it's just like, come on, I'm in a Panda, I'm going 74 miles an

Starting point is 01:13:37 hour, leave me alone. In 15... 3.53 in 21 seconds, the first officer says, boy, this is a losing battle here on trying to de ice those things. It gives you a false sense of security. That's all it does. Oh, that inspires confidence. Let's do this.

Starting point is 01:13:53 Boys. What's actually happening here is the exhaust from the DC nine's engines is melting the snow and ice. Yes. But then the water just pools on the wing and it all becomes ice, which is even more tightly adhered to the wing. Oh, good. Oh, good.

Starting point is 01:14:11 Okay. So we're converting the soft slushy ice into rhyme ice. Excellent. Yes. Tremendous. There's another thing happening simultaneously, and I don't think anyone's established why this was not fixed by the pilots, but something strange is happening to the engines, right? There's a thing called engine pressure ratio, right?

Starting point is 01:14:34 EPR, yeah. There's a sensor at the front of the engine that measures the air pressure, and there's a sensor at the back of the engine also measures the air pressure. there's a sensor at the back of the engine also measures the air pressure. The ratio of the pressure at the back of the engine over the front of the engine is your engine pressure ratio. So if you have a pressure of like near one, your idle, if you have a pressure of like two, I don't know how high up they go.

Starting point is 01:15:02 That means you're producing a whole big bunch of thrust, right? You know, so the higher the number, the more thrust you're producing. Um, this is how you measure the thrust out of the engine. This is how lots of systems on the plane sort of regulate how much to open or close the throttle. Um, you know, this is, uh, this is an important source of data for the airplane. Right. Um, there can be issues with these sensors though, that might give you a And, y'know, this is an important source of data for the airplane, right? There can be issues with these sensors, though, that might give you a bad reading.

Starting point is 01:15:30 Specifically, in this case, ice and snow building up on a pressure gauge and blocking it. ALICE Yeah, and it turns out that just kind of taxiing behind another plane, blowing ice and slush into your engines might make that worse too? JUSTIN Yeah, that does not, that's not a very good situation. Because usually what's gonna happen... ALICE Yeah, and it's the sensor at the front that's gonna get all the ice and slush, which of course crucially is what gives you your kind

Starting point is 01:15:58 of background air pressure. So if that one gets sticky... Hmm. JUSTIN You get an artificially high thrust reading, right? Yes. Yeah. Cause that's the denominator. Um, and that, you know, that means, you know, when you try to adjust the

Starting point is 01:16:13 throttle for the amount of thrust you need, you're going to do it less than you otherwise would, which is bad if you're trying to take off and, you know, climb, right? This is why these engines are equipped with a de-icing system, to compensate for this. You just run the hot bleed air through the front of the engine, and hey, problem solved. ALICE & LIAM Uh huh. ALICE Uh huh. So they do that, right? JUSTIN So yeah, that's fine. Problem solved. Next slide. LIAM It has no performance impact, there's no reason not to use it, especially in weather like this. So anyway, they don't use it. Ah, okay.

Starting point is 01:16:45 Okay. Tremendous. Tremendous. Do we know why not? Our team. This is one of the more confusing parts, because you can hear very clearly on the cockpit voice recorder, you know, when they're doing the checks at the beginning, engine anti-ice off. Okay.

Starting point is 01:17:03 Brilliant. Yeah. Again, these people are not used to flying in wintertime. It could just be, y'know, a brain fart. It's a pretty serious brain fart, but uh... They went into autopilot, as it were. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. All these guys are talking about, on the runway, is how much the de-icing hasn't worked, and

Starting point is 01:17:24 how to get the thing de-iced, and then they don't remember that the engine had to be iced. There's a switch. There's a switch that solves some of their problems. Yeah. I'm not 100% certain, but I think you have to switch that on in flight anyway. You know, just because it's cold up there. Right.

Starting point is 01:17:43 Yeah. So anyway, air traffic control radios in to say that Air Florida 90 is clear for immediate takeoff. This is after quite a while more of waiting. And also there's an inbound plane about two and a half miles behind them. So move, move now. Yeah, hurry it up, hurry it up, dickheads. Apparently they like to get a lot

Starting point is 01:18:05 of use out of this runway which I think is usually the only runway they use. Oh wow. In this case it's runway 36 which I believe is now numbered 1. I don't know why they changed the numbers. That's weird. I always thought the numbers are the same because they refer to the angle of the you know the compass bearing the thing. That's weird. Like 36 would be 360 degrees. Yeah, but one would be, I guess, 10 degrees. Yeah, exactly. I think sometimes they, sometimes they, they, they have a little bit of leeway on there if it like makes it more convenient for the instrument somehow, which I think there's like a problem with the runway 1836.

Starting point is 01:18:41 I don't, I don't fully understand that. But I do know they have renumbered the runways. Interesting. Yeah. So they've done their pre-takeoff checklist, right? They've set the engines for an engine pressure ratio of 2.04, which is a little higher than usual, but appropriate for this kind of weather, right? The captain hands off the controls to the first officer, who is going to be the pilot flying for this leg, the captain's gonna be pilot monitoring. Right? And yeah, this is when they don't turn on the engine anti-ice. Oh good.

Starting point is 01:19:16 Yeah. They start taking... I guess technically it's all when they don't turn on the engine anti-ice. Yeah. Well this is true. This is true. The whole battle is called trade. They start to take off just around 359 in 45 seconds. ALICE Oh, so it's been a while, okay. JUSTIN Yes.

Starting point is 01:19:32 And things immediately seem off to the First Officer, right? ALICE Oh, this is the nightmare. Like pre-CRM shit where you're like, something feels wrong, but the guy who's kind of my boss is like... JUSTIN Yeah, eeeh. ALICE It's fine, it's fine. I've been gunning it the whole time. where you're like, something feels wrong, but the guy who's kind of my boss is like... It's fine, it's fine, I've been gunning it the whole time, it's fine. Uh... The plane feels a bit slow, you know, it's sluggish, like a wet sponge.

Starting point is 01:19:57 Oh, Britain. Yeah. Yeah. This plane feels British? Yeah. They're using way more runway than they usually would. The captain is constantly reassuring the first officer who's like, very, very, uh, very uncertain about this, nah, it's fine, don't worry.

Starting point is 01:20:15 They start the takeoff rotation, and the plane violently pitches up. Oh good. We learned that that's good. Plane goes up, Mr. Fowler. Yeah, I remember from earlier, I specifically remember that that means that the wings are completely uninterrupted, at a full aerodynamic performance. ALICE Not covered in ice. LIAM Yeah.

Starting point is 01:20:31 ALICE Yeah. LIAM You get more altitude, for a second. JUSTIN Oh yeah, for a little bit. ALICE It's like the vomit comet, yeah. JUSTIN Weeeee! The captain yells forward, forward. The stick shaker starts going, that's the indicator that you're in aerodynamic stall. The stall warning also starts, which is another indication that you're in an aerodynamic stall. ALICE Yeah.

Starting point is 01:20:52 That sort of thing. JUSTIN You know, this 737 had done exactly what it was known to do in icy conditions, which was to violently pitch up. ALICE I'm looking at the cockpit voice recorder transcripts here, and as they're on takeoff roll, the first officer is like, and this is Vomiti, he says, nah, I don't think that's right, maybe it is. And then he says, I don't know, and I wanna be clear, not to do spoilers here, this man will be dead forty seconds after saying this.

Starting point is 01:21:29 LIAM And this could happen to any of us. Gotta worry about your last words. Speak carefully. I'm looking for the de-icer button on my chair in case I die in twenty seconds. SEAN Yeah, me too. Aw man, why don't they make the whole Liam out of the black box? JUSTIN Oh, well, the only button I have on my chair is... oh wait, that takes the chair to Cuba.

Starting point is 01:21:53 ALICE Yeah, that's fantastic. I mean, I'm pushing that button all the time. ALICE Whoop speed. Yeah, let's do this, man. ALICE I had too many buttons on this fucker. I've got like three-way adjustable arm rests and recline. I, yeah, so, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a cube and thing in here. So despite the situation, they have an unreliable engine pressure ratio reading. The sudden stall, the bad aerodynamics here, they do manage to climb for a bit. Oh, how long is a bit? we're talking minutes or are we talking?

Starting point is 01:22:28 They get up to 352 feet. Oh, so you really do be a bit hot Yeah, that's just that's some high it's taller than I am. I guess that's yeah, that's higher than I can jump Under mears, well I could jump I could jump down from there once Well I could jump, uh, I could jump down from there once. Yeah, that's true. By the way, at this point, during the takeoff roll, the passengers in the back are so alarmed that some of them are putting themselves into the brace position. Yeah, there were a few people who were like, yeah, this looks like it's gonna go poorly,

Starting point is 01:23:03 people are swimming the brace position, apparently it was a very, very rough take off roll. Funniest thing you can do in this situation is get up and go, take me to Cuba. Yeah. Not only that, you can't stand up of course, cause then the jets come along and turn you into a jet. No, no, no, they hadn't invented 9-11 yet. Oh, of course.

Starting point is 01:23:25 I think they were about to. Yeah. So they get off the ground, they're going, they start to turn, and they go down. Oh yeah, figure two is not... Oh, there's some other object involved in this as well. Okay. Oh. Yeah, so this is, y'know, there's four o'clock and thirty-nine seconds, sound of stick shakers starts and continues until impact, the tower contacts them and says TWR, Palm 90, contact

Starting point is 01:24:00 departure control. The captain at this point is saying, forward, forward, easy, we only want five hundred. ALICE Talking to it like a horse. JUSTIN Forward, just barely climb. And he says, stalling, we're falling. And then the first officer's like, Larry, we're going down, Larry. ALICE Just about half an hour.

Starting point is 01:24:16 ALICE You hate to die with a Larry, you know? That already dates it. RILEY Just use a fake name, name him something different at that point. You know that culprit voice recorder's gonna be on telly, so just like, pick a different name. Then the captain's like, I know! Then sound of impact. Square brackets, sound of impact.

Starting point is 01:24:38 I mean, going from I don't know to sound of impact in like, 40 seconds, this is an efficient method of like... This is a very very rapid disaster. Ending your own life, you know. This is one of those where you didn't have the chance to die, you only had the chance to die quickly. Now this is a point where I can add some local flavour that the Air Crash Investigation channels can't,

Starting point is 01:25:05 which is I have fallen into this river in the winter. Free of it all. Off the Rochambeau Bridge or? It's actually very close to this location, yeah. Oh shit. Oh. I can say the thing about the Potomac is, okay, a lot of it's very shallow.

Starting point is 01:25:21 This part is not, because this is where they used to do dredging. You know, so this is a situation. And I will say the Potomac River, even when there's not ice on it, very very cold. You know, you got that fresh natural water from the Shenandoah Valley coming in. This is the kind of detail, you know, that people like this for. Yeah, exactly. You don't get that shit on the Discovery Channel, do you, you'know? That people like this for. Yeah, exactly. You can get that shit on the Discovery channel, don't you, you pricks.

Starting point is 01:25:49 Yeah. Air crash investigation never tell you that you're crashing at like, y'know, 300 miles an hour into a river that's cold. Yeah, the river's cold, it's really cold, I have lived experience. This is really adding insult to injury, you know, your last conscious thoughts as your elbows are driven through your skull are like, is that water cold? Ugh. LIAM GROANS.

Starting point is 01:26:13 ALICE That sucks! Is that a fish I see? ALICE LAUGHS. JUSTIN So, at 4.01pm, Flight 90 crashed directly into the Rochambeau Bridge, it skidded across the bridge deck, it hit six cars in a truck, it took out 97 feet of guardrail, and then it fell in a river. Again, the Potomac generally, a lot of it's like three feet deep, this part's twelve feet deep.

Starting point is 01:26:41 Which is exactly the height of a Boeing 737 fuselage. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. Plop and splash. Not good. And nothing else, you wash the glycol and goop off of it. That's a good point, yeah. Both pilots and most of the passengers are killed instantly, as well as several people

Starting point is 01:26:57 on the bridge, but a few people seated at the very rear of the plane are still alive, and the wreckage is just barely above water, or rather above ice. ALICE You're in a bad situation there, you know? JUSTIN Yeah, they are, yeah. ALICE Just hanging out in the tail section of this thing, above like an icy river, everybody else forward of you is dead, and you're like, 40 seconds ago you were, you know, thinking, get me out of National Airport.

Starting point is 01:27:24 JUSTIN Yes, exactly. LIAM To Cuba of National Airport. To Cuba, yeah. To Cuba, exactly. Yeah, they went out to deal with the fucking de-icing. Thinking about this in the moment and being like, oh man, it seems like my plan to hijack the aircraft and take it to Cuba's really not going in the direction I hoped. There's a PLO guy in the back like, oh, shit. ALICE All of these guys from different 70s terrorist groups looking at each other, just like, ah, dammit.

Starting point is 01:27:51 RILEY Yeah, they're all just looking across the aisle at each other, just like, just shaking their head like, you got the PLO guy, you got the Korean guy, the other side, don't just like, ah. ALICE It's like the opening of Naked Gun 2. Yeah. So this small group of survivors are clinging onto the tail section, they're about 200 feet from shore. I'm not, I mean, how thick is that ice, and how deep is the river, cause just get out

Starting point is 01:28:22 and walk, you know? It's not thick enough. Oh boy. Oh jeez. Okay, so this is where we talk about the rescue efforts. One thing that happens in Washington DC is snow days, right? When it snows hard enough, the federal government shuts down, they tell everyone to go home, or tell everyone not to come into work that day, and usually everyone else follows suit.

Starting point is 01:28:45 What wonderful cultural thing in DC is there's just, you know, the government says no work today because it's snowing. Nah, fuck this, I'm going home. Nice. It's nice. It's good. This is one of those days where the government shut down late, right? So there was this early rush hour, and everyone was trying to beat everyone else back home.

Starting point is 01:29:03 Oh boy. And this is also slightly before the Washington Metro opened into Northern Virginia. And there's no commuter trains. So everyone's driving, right? Great. I'm sure we've not talked in previous episodes, indeed the last one we recorded about traffic blocking the way for emergency vehicles. That's not going to come up in this story, I'm sure.

Starting point is 01:29:26 Oh, well, the traffic was so bad, it was damn near impossible for emergency vehicles to get to the crash site. Oh, no. I can't believe it. Who could have seen this? The nearest Coast Guard vessel was the tugboat capstan, but it was pretty far down river. And ironically, it was on another search and rescue mission.

Starting point is 01:29:47 ALICE Just, like, the tugboat is almost reaching you as you fall in the river and it just turns around and it's just like, what are the needs of the many? JUSTIN Yeah. In one instance, in order to get around traffic, one ambulance was forced to divert around heavy traffic by climbing the curb and driving on the sidewalk right in front of the White House. And just, just the president, wait a minute, what year is it? Yeah, just coming out and going, hey you kids, get off my yard!

Starting point is 01:30:17 So there's a guy, Roger Olyon. He was the first man on the scene. He wasn't an emergency responder. he didn't have any training, he was just a guy. Right? Oh, we love a guy. Of such stuff a real American hero is made of. Yeah. While several staff from the Pentagon looked on, he jumped into the icy river, made it

Starting point is 01:30:39 a few yards out, then came back because fuck, it's cold in there. Yeah. Of such stuff a true American hero is made of. a few yards out, then came back because fuck, it's cold in there. ALICE & LIAM & JUSTIN LAUGHING. ALICE & JUSTIN Of such stuff, a true American hero. JUSTIN The guys from the Pentagon told him, don't do that again, but he insisted he was gonna make a second go of it. This time with a rope, to get him back to the shore, right? ALICE No, bad idea. JUSTIN This time he made it about thirty feet, and then had to be hauled back, and he spent

Starting point is 01:31:03 the rest of the incident warming up in someone's car. Yeah, that's... That's a bad one. That's cringey. I mean, yeah, very heroic, but like... That is dumb. Pretty dumb.

Starting point is 01:31:16 The first emergency workers on the scene were some folks in a park police helicopter called Eagle One. They show up nearly 20 minutes after the wreck. Hell yeah, fucking idiots. They don't have cold water rescue equipment or anything like that. All they have are ropes. Oh boy. And they use the ropes thusly.

Starting point is 01:31:37 It's like a fucking team building exercise, except, you know, real and deadly. Yeah, they get to go on outward bound! The helicopter would drop a rope down to the survivors, and then just drag them 200 feet through the icy river to the shore. JUSTIN Oh no, no, no. ALICE Fuck that, Jesus. JUSTIN Just like, you get to the end and your legs have just frostbitten off.

Starting point is 01:31:59 They just come off, shattered from ice. No thank you, I don't want to be turned into a slush puppy. I believe a few of the people who were rescued did break a bunch of ribs in this process. Yeah, that tracks. Yeah. So it was also a very delicate operation, because the helicopter is of course operating at low altitude between the two bridges. Just dumping a sort of helicopter crash on top of your plane crash. I believe there's some footage here where they were flying so low that the runners of

Starting point is 01:32:30 the helicopter actually dipped below water. Wow. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, no, not good. And of course, the inherent nature of the helicopter is that you're spending the whole time trying to stop it from crashing.

Starting point is 01:32:43 That thing, it yearns for death. Yes. 30,000 moving parts looking for a place to crash. Yeah. So the first person rescued was Burt Hamilton, who was in the water near the aircraft. They dragged him to shore, they went back, handed the line off to Arlen D. Williams Jr. But he gave it away because he couldn't get free of the wreckage. So instead, flight attendant Kelly Duncan was towed to shore. Next, through the innovative technique of using two ropes, Joe Stiley, Priscilla Tirado, and Nicky Felch were towed away. And Arlen D. Williams again gave up the rope since he was still stuck. Right?

Starting point is 01:33:25 Taradar and Felch both lost their grip on the rope and fell off. Um. Crikey. I'm just kind of reigning more people across this room. There's a man- Yeah, there's people everywhere at this point. There is a man of better constitution than Roger Olyon witnessing this. He was a staffer for the Congressional Budget Office

Starting point is 01:33:46 named Lenny Scutnik, right? So Lenny's not Sputnik, Scutnik. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are real, like, local news names. He was watching from the shore when he saw Toronto and Felsch lose grip on the rope. And without a single thought for self-preservation, he stripped off his coat and boots and jumped into the icy Potomac River and, amazingly, managed to grab Toronto and drag her back to shore. And then the helicopter managed to get close enough to Nikki Felch for a paramedic to step

Starting point is 01:34:16 out onto the runners and get her out of the water. Right. Jesus, they really threw this together, like, y-you know, out of nothing. Yeah. Uh, Arlen D. Williams, meanwhile, was still stuck in the tail section, and he was still trying to unstrap himself, and the tail section fell over. Oh. Oof.

Starting point is 01:34:37 Yeah, so he was the only death by drowning in the incident. All of this was caught by local media, who managed to beat rescuers to the scene. Arlen's selflessness became national news. Again, he was stuck. It's thought that possibly as many as 19 other people may have survived the initial crash, but succumbed to hypothermia before they could be rescued. Grim. Bloody hell.

Starting point is 01:35:02 Yeah, this is quite an ugly way to go on this flight, I would say. So the impact force, so that means a lot of people, a sizable number of people died from, is that just the shock of impact with the bridge or with the water? Good question, because honestly this was, you know, in terms of like actual impact forces, this was relatively tame. Like if they hadn't hit the bridge this would be much more survivable. Yeah, because the whole point is that things are not going fast. That's the reason it's in the ditch. It's in the drink. It's going a little faster vertically than it should, but other than that, I mean, I

Starting point is 01:35:36 don't know, this could have been... If the bridge hadn't been there, well, they still would have crashed into the next bridge. Sure. Yeah, I suppose the diagram in figure two in the previous slide showed it, it stalled, so it's landed belly. It's landed on its belly. So I guess it kind of probably broke up on its, between hitting the bridge and hitting the drink, it probably broke up at that point. It's one of the big issues.

Starting point is 01:36:02 And you know, water is a much softer target than a bridge. So, yeah. ALICE Yeah, those speeds for sure, yeah. JUSTIN So anyway, all said and done, 74 of the 79 people on the plane were dead. ALICE Jesus. JUSTIN Four people driving over the bridge were also killed. Four people on the bridge were also only injured, and I don't know how you explain that to insurance.

Starting point is 01:36:27 ALICE Well, at least back in the day you could get a human being on the phone. JUSTIN That's a good point, yeah. ALICE Okay, there's not a box on the form to say they were hit by a plane, but... JUSTIN They threatened to take my car to Cuba?! ALICE Hello, State Farm. Yes, someone crashed a plane into my car. ALICE There's a box on there for actions of Floridians.

Starting point is 01:36:50 JUSTIN Yeah. Reconstructions by the NTSB determined that due to anti-ice being turned off, the plane was at a 1.7 engine pressure ratio rather than the 2.04 as recommended for takeoff in these conditions. That's enough to get off the ground, but not enough to compensate for the icing or to get out of the stall. And you know, ultimately this came down to pilot error, right? Yeah, but wouldn't you say pilot error in the airline industry, that's a lot different from like, I don't know, the airline industry that's a lot different from like,

Starting point is 01:37:25 I don't know, the railroad industry where it would be like, well, the engineer fucked up and everyone moves on with their lives. Yeah. There's nothing we can do. The airline regulators actually look into these things and make recommendations to stop this from happening, right? It was found that the flight crew was probably too inexperienced. The training programs at Air Florida were not comprehensive, generally Air Florida needed to change their procedures

Starting point is 01:37:49 and really emphasize how to operate the aircraft in winter, especially now that they weren't just flying exclusively in sunny Florida now. They're flying into Stockholm! Stockholm! Yeah, there's a lot of them actually. It's literally snowing. This is the thing, right, this is a sort of like, danger inherent to a kind of like, meteoric capitalist rise, right?

Starting point is 01:38:10 Like this is a business success story, it's going great, investors love these guys, and it's like, yeah, and they're growing in a way that is like, unsustainable and unsafe. Yes. Yep. It's a really common story in aircrafts, actually, that story, particularly with low costs. Indonesia have had this, like Thailand had it, of the massive rapid rise of a low cost flight of airlines. And the staffing can't keep up. So everyone's an experienced training can't keep up. You know, the aircraft getting enough new aircraft in or keep it on top of maintenance can't keep up. Yeah. Yeah. Really common, really common story. Yeah, ultimately it was determined that, had any one thing not gone wrong here, right,

Starting point is 01:38:52 if there had been more substantial de-icing, if they had activated the anti-ice on the engine, or if they even just anticipated and quickly pulled out of the stall, this flight would have been recoverable. You would have been able to keep going. ALICE The classic Florida cheese model. JUSTIN Yes, exactly. JUSTIN Yeah, like, why they didn't apply more throttle when they... both of them were feeling that there wasn't... well, okay, the first officer as pilot flying was feeling that it

Starting point is 01:39:20 was not moving... apply more thrall! Get more thrall in there! ALICE I don't exactly know how that works, cause I'm not sure if they were using the auto-throttle. Oh don't worry, we'll hear about it in the comments. Would've come out, been confused by the EPR reading, or I don't know, I'm gonna be honest. It's one of those things where... But you can always override it, if the pilots pushed onto throttle and applied it to 737-200, it's not an Airbus. So you push the throttle forward, you get more throttle.

Starting point is 01:39:55 It would automatically deactivate the auto throttle. So yeah, I'm stumped by whether they didn't. But it's not entirely on them. Their training was inadequate. They were too collectively inexperienced. They could have had one of them inexperienced, it's not entirely on them. They were, they were, their training was inadequate. There were two collectively to experience like they could have had one of them inexperienced, but they have all more experience, but they didn't do that. Yeah. It's a, as you say, one thing would have solved this.

Starting point is 01:40:14 They've managed to do that. All the things went poorly. Everything went wrong. Yeah. Air Florida's reputation was ruined. Their finances were already a little shakier than they were during their meteoric rise in the late 70s. But this accident really put a bunch of nails in the coffin, right?

Starting point is 01:40:33 Passengers stopped booking Air Florida. Yeah, I would tell. Unless they were trying to go to Cuba. The airlines started shrinking, but they refused to cut their unprofitable prestige routes to like Europe and to the Northeast, the United States, which was at that point, the Northeast routes to Florida were dominated by Eastern Airlines, which was a stalwart of the industry and would never go under, obviously. They filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1984 1984 and they were absorbed into Midway

Starting point is 01:41:08 Airlines over the next 10 months or so. And I think Midway went bankrupt not too, too long afterwards. The airline industry was not in a great place in this sort of decade or so. Lenny Skutnik was invited to Ronald Reagan's State of the Union address, and he became a meme. Okay. A 1980s meme. Yes. Whenever the President invites some regular Joe to the State of the Union, the local press

Starting point is 01:41:40 now just calls them a Lenny Scutnick. Oh, that's a great photo of the guy, he's got an incredible mustache as well. LIAM Oh, nice. Love a mustache. He says, guy with mustache, I'm boss. JUSTIN Roger Olyon and Lenny Scutnik both received the Coast Guard's Gold Life Saving Medal.

Starting point is 01:42:00 Arland Williams Jr. also received the award posthumously. Even though the only person Roger Ollien had to rescue was himself. ALICE & LIAM It's like, points for trying. ALICE & LIAM Take them where we can get them, man. ALICE Speaks to Lenny Skrattnik's nobility of spirit for not being like, that guy gets the same thing as me. LIAM Yeah.

Starting point is 01:42:20 He didn't fuck all, what's he doing here? ALICE Yeah, the Coast Guard gold medal for attempted life saving. JUSTIN And the previously unnamed middle span of the 14th Street bridge complex was renamed to the Rochambeau Bridge, and the span the plane hit was renamed from the Rochambeau Bridge to the Arlen D. Williams Jr. Memorial Bridge. And the circle is complete, that makes sense. There we go. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:42:51 RIP to that guy, who was stuck but also didn't go to school. That is a good thing to do if you're stuck in a plane crash in a freezing river. It is kinda, you know, you look at where they're taking the back of the plane out and that is pretty close to shore. You know, it's like, damn. I can imagine it drifting though. I can see the thing kind of drifting along a bit while by the time they're pulling out of there, you know, it took them 20 minutes to get the helicopter in. And so this is probably happening hours and an hour later.

Starting point is 01:43:20 Yeah. Like also, but the other thing is like right around where the plane hit the river, it's like six feet deep most. They really, it really did hit in just the wrong spot. Yeah. Yeah. Oof. I mean, it looks fuckin' cold, let's be quite honest here.

Starting point is 01:43:38 Oh yeah. That, like, photo is one of the, like, more viscerally freezing things I've seen. Don't like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Oof. What did we learn?

Starting point is 01:43:50 Don't fly out of Florida. Unless you wanna go to Havana. No, de-ice your own plane, dickheads. Do not try and, like, improvise a de-icing solution by just, like, you know, tailgating. Yeah, again, de-icing is much more strictly regulated and there's a lot more mathematics behind it now. There's a lot of stuff that pilots have to do in terms of calculating how long they have between de-icing and actually getting to the runway, and also making sure the plane has

Starting point is 01:44:21 been properly de-iced. All this other stuff. You know, the safety manual is written in blood. This is definitely an instance of that. Just don't have asses to. Yeah. Yeah, and goop. The Potomac River became a little bit more goopy that day.

Starting point is 01:44:41 It's pretty goopy already. Yeah, that's true. The Anacostia is goopy. The Potomac is beautiful clear waters of the Shenandoah River. And the other river, I forget which one. For a brief time it was made gloopier. Yes. Gloopier.

Starting point is 01:44:56 By a bunch of Floridians. Well, just two actually in this instance. Well, we have a segment on this podcast called Safety Third. Shake hands with danger. We have a segment on this podcast called Safety Third. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28.

Starting point is 01:45:12 ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28.

Starting point is 01:45:20 ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. ALICE & TROY SING E28. I'm looking. I like the BMW 2002s, those are good, yeah. Oh, I dunno, maybe... E28 era? Oh, no, I might not be getting my...

Starting point is 01:45:31 Anyway, okay, it's a beamer of that era, it's E28 era-ish. Comments shout at me, it's fine. Ahoy November, Yar Cleum, g'day Roz, Avast Devin, and hello to the kid that likes the trains. Hey, I've found out recently I'm possibly the oldest person here. I'm pirate Jeff, and I'm going to regale you with a tale of the time I was the scurvy dog on the front line of retail entertainment and commerce. My time as an escape room host. Right now.

Starting point is 01:46:05 I've ever told you my secret strategy for escape rooms. Don't go. Just burst through the walls like the jug of a. No, you just don't go in in the first place. Then you've already escaped. Yeah, that'll definitely. Yeah, that works. I've beaten every escape room.

Starting point is 01:46:21 Anyway, I worked in a multinational arcade and bowling corporation that had special chains of high end. We're going to assume this is supposed to be barcades, but it says barcodes. A licensed bowling alley that sells a premium experience. Oh no. That included... It's a brothel? Two escape rooms.

Starting point is 01:46:48 Escape room at the bowling alley? Yeah. At the Disco. You get, uh, you get stuck in the pin machine. I know, I've done that. Now that's terrifying. No, that is bad. I imagine those things can really mutilate you if you fuck up.

Starting point is 01:47:05 Uh, I look forward to our bowling machine mutilation safety third. WTYPquad at gmail.com, write in. Didn't we have a bowling machine safety third a few years ago? We. Not me, I was just a lowly listener at the time. I'm sure you did. We got sucked into the ball return. I'll show you a ball return.

Starting point is 01:47:26 Um. Oh, here it is. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Yeah, I could tell you. One of these escape rooms was based on old pirate's tales and the other was based on the myth of Poseidon and the lost city of Atlantis. They were both rooms lined with polystyrene drywalls,

Starting point is 01:47:46 complicated puzzle electronics that were handmade for the rooms, which all ran off a strawberry pie. Is that a new raspberry pie? That would be an error. I don't know. And wired to work on a European power board, even though it was in Australia. on a European power board even though it was in Australia. Okay. Management liked to run the room with the main lights off to make it harder. That also meant you couldn't see the trip hazards on the floor or really read the clues. The place was a fire hazard so they built it right next to the fire exit just in case.

Starting point is 01:48:21 Oh yeah, that makes it completely safe. Fine, good. Yep. Okay. Atlantis had a waterfall made out of a single line of hose and a fish tank pump. It needed a chlorine pill in it every time we filled it up because the water would evaporate inside because the air conditioning was broken and cause black mold to grow in the walls. That's Jackie Rollins' house.

Starting point is 01:48:42 Patrons would either be drunk or eight years old, so they would just yank and tear at anything that might look like a clue. They were ripping lights out of their sockets and clawing like rats at puzzle boxes. Oh no. Incredible. Also really enjoyed yank and tear from the Kidz Bop version of the Doom soundtrack. I had to watch and monitor the progress on a screen with headphones on, so imagine having to listen to escape room audio for over four hours each shift, children screaming at the

Starting point is 01:49:13 most basic stimulation, adults traumatizing and yelling at their children. Having to listen to a moron solve a puzzle you know like the back of your hand. It drove me mad. I once got chastised by a manager in short pants that didn't like that I had evacuated the escape room when the fire alarm went off because the floor manager hadn't said to do that over the radio yet.

Starting point is 01:49:38 I eventually got fired when, after a long shift at work, I got drunk at the bar and decided to drive drunk on Wagwan Midnight. Which is some kind of Japanese car game, I believe. I used my staff card to upgrade my BMW 2002 turbo and race other customers. ALICE LAUGHS ALICE I heard drive drunk and I'm like, okay, not a fan of this, but now you tell me that this is how you drove drunk? JUSTIN Yeah. ALICE You drove drunk on an arcade cabinet?

Starting point is 01:50:16 That's cool. Like, doing the actually I'm not only am I good to drive, but like, it makes me a better driver. JUSTIN MMM-hmm. Yeah. They said I had stolen... Oh man, the number of hours I played Driver 2 half-cut, like, yeah, that's like, absolutely good stuff. They said I had stolen fifty dollars worth of value from the company for using my staff

Starting point is 01:50:40 card to play free games. What, yeah, fuck them. No fun allowed. Turns out later they had criminally underpaid me for my work, so they had to pay out upwards of $1000 redo's. Which is what they call them in Australia. Yes. Famously, yeah.

Starting point is 01:50:59 Yarg Boy now works in the dodgy world of exhibitions and events setup. Thanks for all your hard work, Pirate Jeff. P.S. Give November her goddamn mail. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shut up, that's real. Thanks, Pirate Jeff. Thank you, Pirate Jeff.

Starting point is 01:51:19 Thank you, Pirate Jeff. Getting lapped by a pirate in a BMW 2002 smartphone. Yarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr in a BMW 2002. Yarrrrrr. I love pirates. JUSTIN It's the sound, that's the engine note. ALICE Yeah. Harbocharged. Yarrrrrr. Yarrrrrr.

Starting point is 01:51:36 Yarrrrrr. Yarrrrrr. Yarrrrrr. Yarrrrrrrr. JUSTIN Wait, the people will be sounding off in the comments about that too. I really get your nerves to play driver now. I just, I don't know why it's reminding me of that game. The sound of the turbo dumping is like a parrot. So many times that's maybe what it was. So yeah, cause you could drive around in Havana in the first game. Of course. Take this video

Starting point is 01:52:02 game to Havana. Yes. Well, you're going gonna have to, you know, to Air Florida and flight simulator first. Yeah. Alright, let's get out of here under two hours. Yeah. And look at this, one hour fifty eight forty one seconds. That was Safety Third. Our next episode will be on Chernobyl. Does anyone have any commercials before we go? By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the

Starting point is 01:52:32 book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book.

Starting point is 01:52:40 By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. By the book. tickets. Listen to all of our respective many podcasts, which there are dozens. And have a nice time. Don't fly out of Florida, which you can't anymore because of a bus. Never use Reddit. Never use Reddit. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:52:52 Never use Reddit and also always- Never go on Reddit. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, exactly. Just always never go on Reddit. Good night, everybody. Good night. Good night, everyone. Good night.

Well There‘s Your Problem - Episode 174: Air Florida Flight 90

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