Well with Arielle Lorre - 134: How to Manage Stress with Dr. Samantha Boardman

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

In this episode I’m talking to Dr. Samantha Boardman, Harvard and Cornell trained positive psychiatrist, about her new book Everyday Vitality and how to cope with the stresses of life. We discuss how to turn stress into strength; how to find the motivation to utilize healthy coping mechanisms; tips for social anxiety; how to counteract daily stressors; lifestyle factors that can help with stress; how to counteract it in the moment and when stress can actually be useful. We also talk about what the wellness world gets wrong when it comes to stress and counteractive measures, and Dr. Boardman answers listener questions.   www.Athleticgreens.com/blondefiles for your free 1-year supply of vitamin D and 5 free travel packs with your first purchase. www.Beekeepersnaturals.com/BLONDEFILES for 25% off your first order. www.Sakara.com/BLONDEFILES for 20% off your first order. www.Talkspace.com with code BLONDE for $100 off your first month.   Show Notes: https://positiveprescription.com/about#/    Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Sonderger Go to your Reisadviseor or Sunnycars. The following podcast is A Dear Media Production Hey, welcome to the Blonde Files podcast. I'm your host, Ariel Lori, and I'm here to talk all things wellness. From how to achieve optimal health and well-being to the best beauty tips and everything

in between, no topic is off limits. I know there is so much information out there, so I'm here to help you navigate it all and live your best life. Thanks for listening. Let's get into it. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the show. I just listened back to this. episode for editing notes. And I have to say it was so helpful. I never really hear a conversation like as it is while I'm recording because I'm thinking about the interview and thinking about kind of where to guide the direction of the conversation and all of that. So when I listen back, I'm usually like, wow, this is so informative. And that's what happened with this episode today. I am talking to the wonderful Dr. Samantha Bordman. She is a positive psychiatrist.

who combines her years of training in medical school and psychiatry with her studies in the field of positive psychology. And based on 15 years of experience, she helps clients find strength within stress and wellness within illness. And she's passionate about cultivating vitality, which we talk about today, boosting resilience and transforming full days into more fulfilling days. And just a little background on her. She received a BA from Harvard University, an MD from Cornell University, medical college, and completed a four-year residency program in psychiatry at Wild Cornell Medical College. And then after graduating from residency, she continued working at the hospital as the in-house psychiatrist for the Employment Assistance Program and also opened a private practice in Manhattan.

And I just really loved talking to her. You will hear why she's so. smart, obviously, but she's really easygoing and she has really practical and manageable tips for dealing with everyday stress and how to be more resilient. And something that she talks about in this episode is how we actually are usually more resilient and are able to cope more with kind of these big stressors. So like divorce and these big life events, but it's the everyday stressors that we all experience from our commutes to our inboxes and beyond that really can add up and wreak havoc on our lives. So she has so many tips to help deal with that. She also talks about how to turn stress into strength, how to find the motivation to utilize healthy

coping mechanisms because we all know what to do, but it's so hard to actually do it. We talk about social anxiety, especially kind of post-pandemic, how to counteract those daily stressors. We talk about lifestyle factors that can help with stress. How to counteract stress. How to counteract stress in the moment, which is so helpful. And then we also talk about kind of the wellness world and what the wellness world gets wrong when it comes to stress and counteractive measures and just so much more. And also, she takes her listener questions. So I will stop rambling and enjoy the episode. Okay, welcome, Dr. Bordman. I'm so excited to talk to you today. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. So to start out, why don't you just introduce yourself and a little bit of your background and

what you do to the audience. Sure. My name is Samantha Bordman. I am a psychiatrist, and I went to medical school, and I did a residency in psychiatry. And then I also went back to school after a couple of years out in practice, and I studied, I got a master's in applied positive psychology. And so now I sort of married the two and, you know, studying psychiatry and becoming psychiatrists, you really get good at sort of figuring out what's wrong with people and positive psychology is sort of flipping that on its head and trying to sort of cultivate what's strong about them. So I try to do both. I'm curious because today we're going to be talking all about stress and resilience and turning stress into strength, which is what your book is about. But how did you use to deal with stress

when you were in medical school? I think not so well. You know, in that I'm amazed by how we so often are coping strategies are really counterproductive. And that was certainly my go-to, you know, kind of shortcuts to reduce stress. I think we're very, you know, probably undermining actually my ability to feel strong. You know, I wouldn't sleep. I'd stay up late, binge watching TV. I, you know, would reach for the most unhealthy kind of fatty, carb, sugar-laden, you know, snacks and eat bad. And that sort of short-term gratification. It was almost, I call it like cotton candy for the soul. I would cancel plans with friends.

I'd stay home and I'd stay in bed all like afternoon when I did have an afternoon off. So for me, a lot of this has been a really interesting learning process and also learning how to override and identify actually and almost like setting as your defaults, those things that you know will help you feel strong. I think it's interesting because I feel like at least for me personally, I know all of the things to do,

that help to kind of alleviate stress and combat stress. But I tend to be really resistant to doing them. And I don't know if you've had that experience. But I also noticed when people sent in questions for this episode, it seemed to be kind of a universal thing. Like people say, well, I know what to do. And for some reason, I just can't bring myself to do it. It's so true.

And I'm so glad you're bringing this up. Because we actually, for most things, we have all the information we need. You know, like we know what we should be doing. but what we lack is motivation. We have information, and we really know all of it very well, but we don't have the motivation. So how do we kind of close that gap?

And how can we make something, the thing that we want to do either easier, which is one strategy to help people, you know, if you do want to go to the gym or you know that that's going to help you feel strong, make it so you are making whatever that behavior is easier. It would be, you know, I have one patient who always,

puts on her jog bra first thing in the morning. So she doesn't have to do that, you know, later on in the day or make even on the hard, like the thing that you don't want to do a little bit harder. It's sort of getting rid of that snack, you know, that unhealthy snack in your desk drawer. And I think when we can, you know, there, there is that activation energy to do anything. So if you can make it a little bit easier for yourself. Also, the other thing is like find a partner in crime, have some obligation, you know, make sure that even if you wanted to go for a walk in the park later, but you just kind of, you're just by five o'clock or six o'clock or seven o'clock in the afternoon, you're just not ready to do it. If you know your friends waiting for you,

you're much more likely to follow through with that. And here what I thought is a really interesting study looking at students who were, these are middle school students, but they've done it with older students and they've also done this with adults, is giving them information about optimal study habits didn't really change the way they studied. Like as a parent, I'll sometimes say to my kids and like I would bang on you know forever about like you really need to study hard and this is what you should do and maybe I should have been alerted to the fact that they weren't really taking it in because their eyes would roll whenever I would do that but you know I thought of myself as a treasure trove of information but it turns out even like good advice given by parents

or teachers kids don't take in as much but when you ask seventh or eighth graders to give advice to younger kids about good study habits. Not only do these younger kids take like this to heart and are much more likely to study well, but also the ones giving the advice were also then more likely to study hard and kind of take their own advice. And I find it to be so interesting because I think when they see themselves being in a position of being a giver and that their experience matters, that they're actually much more likely themselves then to follow through on their own advice. So I have been traveling around a little bit. I was on the East Coast for a few weeks. I'm supposed to go to Europe in a week. And overall, my schedule has just been a little bit crazy. And with a crazy schedule, a disruption in routine comes disruption in my regular eating and my sleep schedule and all of that. But something that I always have with me that really helps to help me feel amazing is athletic green. So I love it because it's such a micro habit with a maximum. benefit. And even when I'm running around and not getting enough sleep and maybe eating things that I

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in this episode we are talking all about stress and in this time of year we are approaching the holiday season and for a lot of us that means travel and family and those things can be great but they also can come with a lot of stress especially after kind of being in lockdown over the last 18 months a lot of us feel like we are having trouble adjusting to being back out there in the world socializing with other people and so there can be a lot of pressure around this time of year. So I am a huge proponent of therapy and obviously we're talking all about this in this episode. It can be so incredibly useful when it comes to stress and the current state of the world that we're in and just everything else in our lives. So I cannot recommend TalkSpace enough. It is ready to help you start feeling better with a single message. So Talkspace is the number one online therapy platform. There are thousands of licensed therapists available for you to match with across dozens of specialties, including anxiety, depression, relationships, and more. Something about Talkspace that is actually really incredible is that they work around your schedule at your

convenience with live video sessions and unlimited messages with your dedicated therapist. So I know for a lot of people there are time constraints and Talkspace makes therapy manageable in that sense. and also they have an amazing offer for you guys so that it can be available if you have financial constraints. So if you need a little support to help you through the end of the year, or you want to start building towards a better upcoming year, Talkspace is here to help. And they are offering my listeners $100 off your first month with the promo code, Blonde. So you can match with a licensed therapist when you go to Talkspace.com. And again, you get $100 off your first month with the promo code Blonde.

that's B-L-O-N-D-E. Again, $100 off when you use the code blonde at talkspace.com. I've also heard you in other podcasts talk about maybe writing down how doing something positive makes you feel. So going for a walk, instead of just ticking it off like your to-do list or whatever, write down how you feel. And I started doing that after I heard you say that because I downloaded this app called Talley. And I was like, I'm going to make sure I'm drinking enough water and doing my workout and doing my two meditations. a day and doing X, Y, and Z, and I was checking everything off, but I wasn't really feeling the motivation, like you said. And then when I kind of switched my attitude around it, I guess, from just

something that I have to do to something that really benefits me in so many ways and looking at that piece of it, that really helped to strengthen that motivation, I guess. What's so interesting. I think because we just tend to, you know, when you check it off, you just discount even how you felt. You're like, oh, that made me feel good, but it doesn't stay with you. And so I often will ask patients to keep like a log, you know, of how they felt before and after, because it's almost like Groundhog Day that like you'll remember that you sort of felt better, but it's not going to even help you or motivate you to do it again. But when you see it, it's very different. You're like, no, I really did. And remember, like, I circled my mood on like a zero to ten beforehand.

It was a two and afterwards, it was an eight. Okay, I'm going to go do that again today. And so I do think that it's incredibly powerful. to reinforce that positive experience and how it did change how you're feeling with those imprinted and actually visual cues of like, okay, this really made a difference for me. And also just to make that thing that you want to do easier and to have somebody fun that you do with and to make it social as well, I think sometimes we think of all this stuff that has to be drudgery all the time and to, you know, whatever we do and the choices we make around, you know,

our health and it can't always be misery. And I think when we have somebody we enjoy doing it with, it makes it, I mean, everything is better, you know, when you do it with a friend and those studies showing that chocolate tastes better when, you know, you're both sharing it at the same time. So that if we can at least find somebody else that we will not only or that we're much less likely to flake when they're waiting for us, but I think it's also going to be a whole lot more fun and we're much more likely to sustain it. Okay, so we kind of just dove right into it. I want to rewind a little bit and talk about your book. So your new book is Everyday Vitality. Why Vitality? I find this so interesting. You know, I think it's a word that we don't use enough in terms of our mental health.

And to me, it's a sort of signifier of that positive feeling of like aliveness and energy. And it's psychological and it's physical. And it's really at the heart of a good day that you kind of wake up and you can answer questions. Like, you know, yes, I feel alive. I feel alert. I feel like I'm ready for anything. And to me, it really goes hand in hand with this idea of everyday resilience. You know, we know there's now been a lot of research. I must say, I didn't learn this in medical school or even in psychiatry residency. I don't think I ever heard the word resilience, to be honest, back then. Like, it was not something that was even, you know, brought up, I think, in any context, now it's a word we hear a lot and people throw around a lot, maybe so much so that it's sort of lost

meaning, but people do tend to be resilient to those big life events and that occur. And I think maybe it's a message we don't hear enough. And even without professional intervention, you know, that people do tend to adapt, to change, to recover from those big life events. But what research is showing is that like the daily grind, daily hassles, just like that, you know, that commute that spilled coffee, that argument, the coworker, that stuff can really add up and take an even bigger toll on our mental and physical health than those big life events. So I really wanted to write a book that was going to help people manage the hassles, like the daily stuff, and to build that everyday resilience. And I thought vitality was sort of an avenue into that. Yeah, to your point, I've been in recovery.

I've been sober for seven and a half years. And I've always been told that more people relapse when things are good. Because when things are bad and you're going through divorce or death or, you know, any of these big, big T traumas or just big life things, you're pulling out all the stops to get through it. Whereas when you're kind of just coasting, those kind of little, you know, micro-stressers, micro-traumas, whatever they are, can really... throw you off. So I found that really interesting when you talked about that. And maybe also, it's an interesting point that they make in recovery as well, but maybe it has to do too with during those big life events, there's often this like rallying around somebody. You know, there's a lot of support and, you know, people are there for you. You know you have those shoulders to lean on.

And people even know how to act in those moments. Like if you have your best friend, if she has a fire or something, that she, you know, you'd invite her to come and stay with you. Like those types of things. There's natural ways, I think, as friends and family to respond to that kind of thing. But, you know, nobody brings you a casserole if you've had a really bad commute or nobody really wants to hear about your flight was delayed or, you know, all that stuff. So I think that not so obvious, like kind of personal support that we would have in those sort of bigger life things. And in our own daily lives, things get so stressful. I think, you know, our social connections and relationships get kind of pushed over to the side and a big part of the book also.

I talk about is that critical importance of other people in your life and that those social connections are really like the lifeblood, I think of our mental health. I think a lot of people just based on my own experience and some of the questions that we got for this episode are experiencing social anxiety coming, you know, kind of on the tail end, hopefully of the pandemic and things kind of returning to a little bit of a sense of normalcy and being out in the world again. and do you have any tips for that social anxiety? Because that connection is so critical, but I think we're all used to kind of being hermits now

and just seeing people through screens and isolating, really. No, it's really hard. And I think our social muscles have atrophied a little bit. You know, we're out of practice. Even I've had patients say to me, like, I just don't even know what to say. Like, I don't know how to not feel like an awkward teenager at a school dance. Like, this is so weird.

All I know how to talk about is Netflix. and which show I've been watching. So, I mean, I think everybody is out of practice in that way. I've also really advised, you know, we know that social connections matter a lot and social interactions are really good for our mental health. But I think not all social interactions are equal. And research suggests that having meaningful conversations

is one that gives you a really big boost. And the other one is that experience of felt love, like feeling like you're connected and you're loved, And I think those meaningful conversations and that experience of felt love can go hand in hand. But so maybe cherry pick what you're going to say yes to. First of all, like if it's like a huge event and it's like an overwhelming cocktail party where you feel like you're not really going to have that opportunity to have that amazing conversation, maybe skip that, but say yes to dinner with like four friends.

And then also like on top of that, I think it's very important not to be avoidant right now. And I think it's sort of easy. A lot of people, like they even initially, even after they got the vaccine, I was saying yes to everything. And then they almost like went a whole hog and did it all. And then felt they had this sort of social hangover. They were just so exhausted and drained afterwards. And then I think the response, and it's like, well, maybe I just need to retreat again

and be avoidant. And I think avoidance, spigets, avoidance, and we have to be really careful about that. So just really cherry pick the things that you know are going to give. you a boost and also sort of space them out as well, you know, so you don't have three things going on this weekend. And the third thing I think it's worth considering is I love this study on people who have social anxiety, you know, about like a party or in like a social context and with others and who are nervous about being there. One of the best ways to intercept that is to just do something kind for someone else while you're there. Like so or even if beforehand, like

asks the host if she needs some help with something, or while you're there, you know, if you're going over to the bar, you can say, like, oh, can I bring you a drink as well? Like, those types of interactions can help diminish some of those, like just those feelings that bubble up of inadequacy. I'm not worthy. And the last thing I'd say is ask questions. When we're nervous, we tend to talk on stop about ourselves. It's most of our favorite, you know, most people's favorite topic of conversation. But actually asking people. sincere questions that are real, that are not talking about the weather, but, you know, and listening with not the intent of responding, you know, and coming up with what I'm going to say next,

but actually with listening to what they're saying and responding to that is, I think the questions we bring, there's a lot of research that shows that we don't ask enough questions in our lives and even on interviews, on dates, them more questions, sincere questions people ask, the much more, you know, the more likely they're going to be asked on a second date or even back for the interview. So again, I think, you know, that listening component, it's maybe even, it's more listening than even talking and asking those sincere questions. I love that advice. When I first started dating my now husband, I found myself in a lot of very intimidating

social situations. And I used to get such bad social anxiety. And somebody actually gave me very similar advice to that, actually both components of that. you know, instead of thinking about myself and what everybody thinks of me, think about what I can do for somebody else. And then also just ask people about themselves. People love to talk about themselves. Totally. So funny. Absolutely. I mean, even like for like just three questions, like what was challenging for you during, you know, lockdown? What did you learn? What are you looking forward to? Like those types of things can just open up a lot. You know, they're not yes or no responses. And

and it can lead to kind of deeper conversations. And people, sometimes you might even have a sense of like, oh, that person I know is boring or obnoxious. But if you can almost use it, if you reframe whatever the context is, is an opportunity for you to get information and to learn something. I mean, everybody knows something you don't. So you're almost on a mission to do that. I love that.

So we were talking about kind of micro-stressers that can accumulate and really affect us. what are some ways that we can counter this? And you have this all in your book. But you talk about three things specifically. So can you talk about that? Sure. Well, again, it's sort of in the opposite way of how we think that we're going to be able to help ourselves feel better.

So they're like three central, like three, I think central pass to handling that everyday stress and hassles. And I think of it as the three Cs. It's how you're connecting with others and having sort of meaningful experiences with other people. It's how you feel like you're contributing to something beyond yourself. and the third one is how you're feeling challenged in a positive way. And again, these are other oriented.

They're outer oriented. And it's not just a lot of the stress and hassles in our everyday lives. Like we cannot get rid of it. It's not like we have a magic wand and can get rid of it. And yes, it's whatever you can control. It's great if you can have some control over this. There's a lot of things that you can't. So what are the things that are going to balance the hassles?

And you need uplifts to have in your everyday life. and, you know, looking at surveys of people and they say, like, what reduces stress for them? Being outside, working on a hobby, being, you know, with their pet, being with friends. It's all these things that actually kind of create these buffers for a lot of the stress that's happening. Because stress, something isn't stressful or not stressful. It's the perception of stress. And some things, they'll stress us out a whole lot less when we feel like we have these resources. And we're also balancing the stresses with uplifts.

and they almost act like this sort of fortification and its armor for us. And it's very important, though, that we be deliberate about it because otherwise, as we were talking about earlier, it's so easy to just kind of fall into that negative place and tumble down that rabbit hole of doing those things that actually make us feel worse and worse. And to focus on what's wrong rather than kind of building up what we enjoy doing or something that feels meaningful to us or that's even fun or makes us feel connected or challenge or that we're contributing to something. I mean, I feel like stress must be positive in some ways. I mean, I'm just sitting here listening to you talk and I'm thinking about what would a life be without stress? I know that for me, like a lot of my stress are around things that I'm challenged by. And ultimately those things help me grow. And then you also obviously appreciate the less stressful things.

And like it just, you know, a life without adversity would be so like one dimensional. it just seems like. You know, and a study just came out yesterday looking at how people who have tons of free time, and I think translation means like they're kind of bored, like their well-being is much lower. And I think we all fantasize about having, you know, open days and seven hours or more of like having nothing to do. But actually that in itself can be very stressful. And stress can be really good and positive and challenging and opportunities for growth.

I mean, there's something called the Yorkies Dodson curve. that shows actually when we're sort of stressed a little bit that we are at our best when we're challenged, but we also feel like we have the resources to meet those challenges. Our performance in so many domains improves. So, you know, the question is when we sort of get over the hump, though, and we are like stress is actually debilitating. And oftentimes we have a very poor radar for that. And it's usually the people who we live with or we work with who are like, you need to like take it down a notch. Like we're irritable. We're not focusing as much. But we're the last to know. I think when we've kind of hit that wall and it's something that takes like

there's a delay in our brains to catch up to how stressed out we are. And also for everybody, it is different. But it's important to keep in mind that it is our perceptions of stress, not stress per se, that is stressful. So, you know, I could be kind of happy that my commute took a long time ago and listening to an amazing podcast. I'm listening to your Ethan Cross podcast. That's so great, by the way. Thank you. And if I'm not rushed, and I don't have to be there at a certain deadline. It won't matter as much as if, you know, I'm, you know, stuck in the car and I've really got to be, you know, at this place at a certain time. So I think our perception of stress really, really sort of shapes our experience of it.

And when we have more uplift in our everyday life and we're being more like deliberate about our everyday resilience, it's a way to manage it. And we'll like end up feeling a whole lot better at the end of the day and even enjoying, I think, each day with a little bit more. joy and a little bit less drudgery. Something that can be very stressful that really shouldn't be is eating healthy and preparing nutritious, delicious meals. I know the struggle to find the time and the energy to whip up meals from scratch and I know so many of you feel me on this too. So if you are in the same boat as me or if you're just wanting to start eating a little cleaner, Sakara makes it so easy. Sikara is a nutrition company that focuses on overall wellness starting with what we eat. They have organic, ready-to-eat-eat-meals made with powerful plant-based ingredients,

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are really effective. They're all clean and they're definitely great to have on hand, especially as we move into the colder months. So beekeepers naturals is offering you guys an exclusive offer. You can go to beekeepers naturals.com slash blonde files or enter the code blonde files to get 25% off your first order. again, that's beekeepers naturals.com slash blonde files or enter the code blonde files. So that's B-E-E-K-E-P-E-E-P-E-R-S-N-A-T-U-R-A-L-S dot com slash B-E-L-E-E-F-I-L-E-S. Again, bee-keepers-Natrals or use the code blonde files for 25% off your first order. So I did a poll prior to this interview and I asked people if they feel stressed most of the time and it was like 99% said yes and I'm curious if it's like an epidemic

right now or if it's always been this way and now we're just more aware of it because of like the digital space and everybody is seeing what everyone else is doing and what everyone else is dealing with and since people are experiencing stress all of the time what are some things that people can do in the moment to kind of counteract that. Sure. I mean, it does seem that people are, there's a number of reasons to be stressed out right now and even between climate, the news.

And we know social media is incredibly stressful and especially for women, you know, that it's set in young girls too who are deeply affected by the social comparison. It takes, I think, a young girl's 17 seconds to feel badly about herself and her body scrolling through Instagram. So, I mean, I think that is a vampire of vitality is, you know, using social media all the time. That said, look, we also know it's a powerful connector and it's a wonderful way that people find one another, that they feel like they belong, that they feel known in some way.

But I think the way we get our news today is really destructive and that constant doom scrolling. I saw somebody the other day, they call it catastrophe renewing. I mean, at this point, because it is just this endless, like, source of stress. And so one of the things I always talk to my patients about is actually, like, how when and where they get their news and, you know, getting it from a reliable news source that is digested and really deliberately choosing about, okay, I'm going to read it, like, do it in the morning and in the afternoon or whatever that is, but not just that endless checking and rechecking, rechecking. Also, we know, like, studies show that it's passive use of social media that seems to have

more of a negative impact on our mental health and actually active views, passive use, just like sort of scrolling, comparing, look at where all these other people are and I'm not, but when you're actively using social media, it's in a much more sort of positive, connected way, you're commenting on something that somebody else has posted, you're liking this, you're responding to that, and so you're much more engaged with it. But in terms of sort of managing, I mean, because I think people are experiencing stress in an everyday way much more. I think our perception of time people have what's described as like a time famine, you know, that we just feel like we have no time to do anything. And, you know,

there are techniques to use on top of, we know obviously that like sort of eating, moving and sleeping that we need to really take into consideration. And I have to say, like, when I was in medical school, we, unless somebody had an eating disorder, we were not trained really to focus on, like, you know, what they ate, when they ate. And either they eat right before bed, how many, you know, you know, Big Macs were they eating a day, that kind of thing. We're, that wasn't like a big part of, I think, the way we thought about mental health. And increasingly, we're recognizing how so much of your mood is and your mental health is affected by what you put into your body. And, you know, I think nutritional psychiatry is emerging now and people are paying

much more attention to it. And it's something I actually always focus on with patients now as well. And same with sleep. Like sleep is something that, again, like unless somebody was complaining they couldn't sleep or, you know, was sleeping too much, I would be concerned, but otherwise, it was something at the top of my list. But, you know, when you talk, especially to young people, they sleep with their phones on and in their beds and they get, you know, woken up throughout the night. And just the quality of sleep affects so much. It affects our mood, our energy level and our social relationships. There was a study that found that people who are like a little bit sleep deprived, other people find them to be socially repulsive. You know, not knowing that

those people are sleep deprived. So the idea that like literally like when you are not getting enough rest, like people like want to get away from you, you know, is really important. I mean, not to mention, you know, how much that also then, you know, it affects, you know, whether or not we have the energy level or the motivation or even like those hassles that really do then snowball into those really bigger stressors though. And when we're sleep deprived too, like unlike, you know, you always, if you could think of a gazelle who's being chased by a lion, well, that's really stressful. And that's a good thing that that gazelle stress will make, you know, the blood run into its muscles. It can run away really quickly. And it will, you know, provide this fuel for it. Stress is fuel

for the gazelle to get away. But then if it does get away and it goes back to the watering hole with the other gazelles, the gazelle isn't going to be thinking constantly or re sort of traumatizing itself with his chase. It'll enjoy the waterhole. So how do we kind of have that switch in ourselves that we can turn the stress off that maybe was good in one moment, but isn't so sort of productive in another. And when we're sleep deprived, we're eating badly or we're not moving our bodies around that can really sort of undermine us. And one strategy that I've always found to be really helpful for patients is to think of somebody who they really admire. What would they do right now? And we, you know, oftentimes people are saying like, be yourself or go and find yourself,

but that could be pretty bad advice when we're super stressed out or drained or depleted or exhausted. And if you have in your back pocket, some people you admire, they might, they could be, is it Michelle Obama? Is it like your fifth grade English teacher? Is it your grandmother? Like, whoever those are and think, what would they do in this moment? This can kind of create some distance between maybe your, your emotions and how you're feeling and what you just like, you want that kind of shortcut, immediate sort of pleasure or something that's going to kind of be this bandaid for you. Or you're going to think like, okay, what would somebody admire doing this moment? And I think it's a way to lift yourself out of maybe these potentially counterproductive coping strategies and to help you sort of see more

clearly and be like, oh yeah, that's what I'm going to do. It kind of reminds me a little bit of like the advice piece. You know, like we like what you were saying before, even with the seventh graders, it's so much easier to think about if your friend was in that situation and the advice that you would give them. And it's so much easier to think, oh, well, what would this person that I admire do. And it seems so much more manageable in that way than thinking about yourself. It's amazing. I mean, I think that any opportunity you can like lift yourself out of yourself. You know, I read a lot about in the book about like how happiness isn't all in your head. You know, it's kind of in the actions you take and the connections you make and how you participate.

And sometimes just immersing yourself in your feelings can take you into maybe down a negative path. And I'm a big, I mean, I might be a positive psychiatrist, but I'm a big believer in negative emotions and actually like sitting with them and learning from them. You know, when you're feeling down, that is data. You know, what are you going to do with it? Even feeling sad can be a signal to, you know, re-goal or to, you know, rethink about what you want to do. But also, though, like if you can take, you know, we think of something like creativity, for instance. We often think of like that as something like a fixed trait if you think, well, I'm just not a creative person. I'm not very artistic or something. But if you ask somebody to think about an eccentric poet, or the alternative in the study was to think about a librarian, and I guess people's perception is they're not very creative with all due respect to those who, you know, adhere to the Dewey Decimal System. But those who were asked to be creative poets and eccentric poets

then were much more likely to be creative in this sort of creativity challenging task, too. So again, when you do sort of access another, you get this newfound perspective. It's funny. I used to get nervous about public speaking. And I would find myself, like, kind of overwhelmed. And what do people always say? They're like, just be yourself. Go out there. You'll own it. Be yourself. And being myself, I would have run out the back door, you know, but I remember at the time thinking, like, I just seen this interview that Barbara Walters had done with somebody. And I was like, what would Barbara Walters do right now? And I scribbled all over my notes then.

It was for this thing for the American Psychiatric Association, BW, BW. And I still do that now because it kind of just helped me stand up a little taller, you know, and feel a little bit more confident. And, you know, by channeling her, I was able to get a little bit closer to the version of myself I would like to be. I love that. So the last thing that I wanted to talk to you about before we get to listener questions was I've heard you talk about how the wellness world kind of has this. theme of withdrawing into yourself in the pursuit of wellness and the pursuit of gratitude and all of that. And this is kind of what we've been talking about. And really, it seems like the answer is

to turn outwards. So could you expand on that a little bit? Study after study after study shows the single most important contributor to our well-being is our connections with others. And one of the best antidotes for stress is doing something for someone else. And, you know, again and again and again, being in a position of being a giver, doing something for somebody else, you actually, like, you get the sense of time back. And you also, like, when they've done these studies, like, would you rather spend it? Here's $5. Spend it on yourself or spend it on somebody else. Reliably, people, even when it goes against what they think it will do, like they'll say, oh, I bet spending on me, I know it'll help me feel better. $5, $15.

$20, people always feel better when they spend it on somebody else. And so even spending time, you know, helping a friend move or even looking at studies of just having, like, if students are studying for exams, you know, they think like, oh, I'm just going to study myself and isolate and hole up. But actually when they've done something social or done something for someone else, they'll actually do better. And when they go back to studying, like, it's much more efficient. So I think it's really counterintuitive.

We have this sense that, like, I just need to focus on me, myself, and I. and sometimes the wellness industry can kind of greenlight some of that behavior. And I think when we are stressed out, we do have this response to self-immers and to retreat. And then when you're listening to people are saying like, that's exactly what you should do. Focus on yourself. Focus on your emotions. Just, you know, it's all about you. And I'd had this patient who was sort of following that.

And she had gone to this conference where she was told it was the year was going to be all about her. And what she found, though, was like she was doing all these exercises and, you know, they were very self-focused, but she ended up feeling kind of even worse. And I think it, because it was kind of taking her away from her friends and her family. Like she felt like she didn't have time to go see her grandmother at that point. Like her sister came to town. She's like, no, no, no, I'm doing this calorie restriction, you know, juice thing. And I can't even join you for a meal. And even with gratitude. Like sometimes, you know, we know gratitude is. incredibly valuable, but gratitude can sometimes get distorted when it becomes very self-immers, when it's all about me. Like, I'm grateful for this. I'm grateful for that. But rather, gratitude's most effective when we make it about the other person. Like, what is it that you admire about somebody else? What is it that you are grateful that is in them? And so make that other oriented and outer oriented rather than kind of making it about me. And I think, well, we get, like we, we reap the benefits of gratitude. I mean, all too often, we don't articulate it. We don't express it. We think,

like, it's going to be awkward or the other person already knows or whatever. And then when we think of gratitude, we just kind of, it becomes very self-centered in a way. And so even if you're, when you are expressing it, like, you know, I admire that person for, you know, their generosity and in the way they, you know, like, I'm grateful to you for the way, like, you share all this wisdom with the world. And it's, it is an act of generosity. But I don't want to be grateful to you for, like, way you make me feel, you know? So I think that's like kind of like the distinction. That's funny. I think, you know, being of service in ways big or small is like one of the major tenets of recovery. And it goes so against my nature. You know, if I have an hour free, I think that I want to isolate

and turn on Netflix. I don't want to pick up the phone and talk to somebody who's newly sober. but I've been taught over the years like take the contrary action, be of service, take that call, and I have found that it's a way to sustainable happiness, whereas like doing the thing, you know, of course sometimes I'll take the hour and watch Netflix or whatever and just check out. But ultimately it's doing that contrary action that really makes me feel fulfilled in a way that other things don't. And I'm always impressed when other people can grasp that just, on their own, not because they were dying of alcoholism and addiction and had to do it because their life depends on it, you know? But it's, I like the way you frame that, I call it like being

on you, like, do the opposite of that thing that you want to do. But it is astonishing. And I mean, I'm like you that like I have to kind of override it all the time because my inclination is to retreat. But just because I think for all of us, like we have this tendency maybe to want to do something, but, you know, and I wish I had been born that way and had that other orientation immediately, but I just know when I can override it, it is, as you say, it's, it sustains that joy. And it's the gift that keeps on giving. And you have like the warm glow of giving that runs like long past that kind of short-term self-centered gratification one might have had from, you know, just doing something that's sort of super self-immers. So how do we kind of deliberately

do that in our daily lives. And I think there are those little ways we can do it. You know, you don't have to go and join the Peace Corps. You know, it is in like making, like, we know what we need to do in terms of lifestyle interventions usually, but like how do we actually cultivate those connections? Do you think that people can become addicted to stress? I think it can become like our habitat. You know, like we habituate to our environment in a way. And I think that it's, It's funny that people I know who have a really hard time going on vacation, and they find that to be incredibly stressful because actually having time or even the space to reflect for a moment or to breathe is almost more stressful than their high, you know, fast-paced, like, supercharged lives.

That's my husband. I'm smiling because I'm smiling because I'm. I mean, sometimes it will take him two or three days and then he eases into it, but he's very uncomfortable initially. It takes, I mean, I think it is like a sort of a buffering, but some people, you know, they take it to such an extreme that they won't. Like they actually won't even take that time because it's so uncomfortable for them. You know, here's an example of it, even like being on an airplane or something without

something to read or occupy or, like, you know, to do that you're like, I've got to sit with myself for a moment, you know, and how's that going? going to be. And I think that it's easier to be constantly responding and putting out fires and things like that. And I mean, I guess where is that place? And it's different for each of us. And it's also different for each of us at different stages of our lives. And I think it's always also really important to keep in mind. Like there isn't a one size fits all here. Like it's not like, this is what you need to do. And it's a part of sometimes I think when that like well-being industrial complex of like you've got to download this. You've got to buy that. You've got to like move away.

that idea that something is like this quick fix for you. And if you could just spend some money on it or spend some time on it, you can like achieve it. And I think what works for you at one period of your life or even this year or this week might not work for you next time. But to be able to find those pockets of uplifts. And I always advise like my patients when I first meet them to kind of to think about like what are the three things that you value most in your life? Like what, what is that? And to really try to kind of, I give them like the week to think about it. And is it something we don't always think about really?

Is it, you know, your health, your relationships, giving back, whatever those things are? And then to talk about like, how did you spend last Saturday? Like, what do you do in your free time? And often they'll find there's this gulf between the two of like what they really care about and what they actually embody and like enact. and trying to kind of increase the overlap between the two. And so for people, I think, who are super addicted to, like, kind of like living, like living in that chronic stressed out place, I think trying to have at least some actions that they take

that are embodying what they value most in their daily lives is one way for me to kind of get in the back door a little bit for them to sort of be like, how are you walking your walk? what are you doing to embody, like, what you stand for, what you care about beyond, like, your professional life? I love that. I had a lot of questions from people. I had quite a few healthcare workers, actually, who said that their job is very stressful and they find that they can't turn it off when they come home. And I'm sure everybody, no matter what their career is or if they're in school, have experience that, you know, not being able to let it go when it comes to home life or, you know, just whenever the stressful situation is over.

Yeah. And I think also for people who were going to an office and then who, like, we're just at home and like those kind of blurred lines between your home life and your work life too. I mean, I call it like, how do you have a decontamination ritual? You know, between your workspace if you are in the healthcare space and getting home. And, you know, some people, it literally is. like I need to like take off all my clothes and throw them in the laundry, take a shower, and then I'm in my, you know, other mode of being at home. But for people to come up with their own ritual around this, you know, I had one patient, she was the teacher and who'd be incredibly stressed out at the end of the day. And she would just like list of a heavy metal in her car, you know, in the parking lot for like 10 minutes before she started driving because that was like part of her decontamination protocol. You know, so whatever that thing is, sometimes it's interesting, I think, to talk to other people, like, what's yours? And, and, you know, whatever,

you'll be like, I would never do that. But that gave me the idea to maybe do this in my life. And I think that having, even if it is some people, it's just walking home, like getting off the subway and not listening to anything, putting their phone away and turning it off and just kind of looking around and walking without any influence of a podcast or like being on their phone, that they're just kind of present in that. And maybe they'll listen on the sub. way to whatever they're listening to, but as they get out and they're walking three blocks home, I think we all need these symbolic just signifiers of transitions in our lives and whatever those rituals that we create, I think are really important to kind of help us signal to ourselves

that this is time to be in a different headspace. I've heard you talk about that with the walking too. and I realized that I usually try to go for like a 40 minute to an hour walk every day, but I realized that I turn that into either working, so I'll listen to a podcast that has to be edited and take notes in my phone, or I listen to another podcast, or I schedule calls. And the other day, I didn't bring my headphones. I didn't bring my phone anything. And I was like, look at the flowers.

Wow, the smells. I mean, my senses were on like high alert. This walk that I take every single day that's become so redundant was so magical. It was so interesting. It is. And there's a study saying that just like hearing the sounds of nature can really help us and actually lower our cortisol levels as well. So I think when you are in nature, like unless, you know, you do have to almost be doing

homework for something. If you can, what I call it, like walking naked in a way, like without all that other stimulation. and if you can't even leave your phone at home, because otherwise when it's in your pocket, it can be pretty tempting to just be like, let me just check this one thing. But one of the best things that being in nature also, it interrupts rumination,

which is that kind of nonstop, you know, negative loop. Actually, Dr. Cross was talking about that you're just kind of going over and over something in your head. And it's really one of the most, like, effective ways to help us pause. And I'm not sure of the mechanism truly underlying that. I think it's poorly understood. It might have to do with awe. I think we all have nature deficit disorder, like that there is that kind of calming effect.

People just do seem to be happier in green spaces. We know people recover from surgery more quickly. If they have a window, even of a tree, they require less pain medication. So even for parents, you know, if you could walk your kid to school and, you know, kids who do walk to school seem to have, there would be less likely to have attentional issues at school. So I think we often underestimate the benefits of walking. of walking with others and just being in nature for our mental health. So I like to always ask my guests, what is one thing we should stop doing today and one thing

that we should start doing? I love this question. I think to stop beating yourself up, I think we're all, and especially women, are so good at seeing what's wrong constantly and like what I didn't do and full of regret and that, oh, if only, and then living that as soon as life, you know, if I finally. can get this done and we're really, it's hard on ourselves and because we do have this tendency, I think, to see the negative always that maybe helped us survive at one point, but it's not helping us now. And the thing I would do, be deliberate about delight. Find something every single

day that delights you and share it with somebody else. Tell them about it. It'll help it sort of stick. It'll have more of an impact. And you've also sort of spread something positive. I love that. Well, thank you so much. This is fascinating. I think it's going to help so many people. where can everybody find you and find your book? I will, of course, link it in show notes, but just so that everyone can follow you and all of that. I'm at positiveprescription.com, and I'm at Sam B.MD on Twitter and at Positive underscore Prescription on Instagram. And thank you so much that you. This is delightful for me. Thank you. Oh, thank you. I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you liked it, and if you like the show in general,

please take a second to rate, review, and subscribe. It goes a long way, and it's actually the best way to support the show. Also, if you want to see more about each episode, you can head over to The Blonde Files podcast on Instagram. I'm always posting about each episode there, or over on my personal page at Ariel Lorry.