Well with Arielle Lorre - 284: Navigating The Emotions of Dating, Relationships, Breakups and Hook Ups with Dr Maddy Ellberger, PhD, LCSW

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

Dr. Maddy Ellberger, PhD, LCSW, is a therapist who specializes in anxiety, depression, emotional dysregulation, interpersonal difficulties, life transitions, and stress management. As the founder of Downtown Behavioral Wellness in New York City, she has spent nearly ten years helping adults and families navigate their life challenges through a combination of therapeutic approaches including cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT), and mindfulness-based stress reduction. She joins the show to discuss how to handle the emotions that come with relationships, whether you are single and trying to build self worth outside of a relationship, dating, in a committed relationship, breaking up or heartbroken. We explore attachment theory, hookup culture, acceptance vs. tolerance, how to balance acceptance with the desire to change something, specific skills to use if you are feeling uncomfortable, how to use comparison to your benefit and so much more. This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Go to Chomps.com/BLONDE for 20% off your first order and free shipping.Try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of VitaminD3k@ AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase at drinkAG1.com/blondefilesProduced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. Welcome to the Blonde Files podcast. I'm your host, Ariel Lorry, and I'm here to talk all things wellness. From how to achieve optimal health and well-being to the best beauty tips and everything in between, no topic is off limits. I know there's so much information out there, so I'm bringing on expert guests and sharing my own experiences to help you sift through all the wellness stuff without the BS. Enjoy the show.

Hi, everybody. to the show. I have what I think is a really refreshing episode for you today because I get so many questions whenever I do Q&A's for the podcast or for Instagram about relationships. And they come from people who are in all different places in their lives, places in their relationships. So whether you are single or you're dating or just participating in hookup culture. or you are in a committed relationship, but you're not sure whether to stay or leave or you're in a committed relationship and just navigating the challenges of that. Basically, wherever you are, in your relationship journey, all kinds of emotions arise. They can be really difficult to

navigate and they can be really destabilizing. So I brought back my friend, Dr. Maddie Lberger. She's been on the show, I believe two other times this year. but I brought her on to talk about this for a number of reasons. One, I think she's really smart, but she's also able to make this information really digestible and easy to understand and apply to your own lives. And we're in different places in our lives when it comes to your relationships as well. And there's a lot of self-disclosure in this episode. So anyway, a little bit about Dr. Maddie Alberger. She is a therapist who's a therapist who's a lot of self-disclosure. She is a therapist who's a lot of, specializes in anxiety, depression, emotional dysregulation, interpersonal difficulties, life transitions, and stress management. She is the founder of downtown behavioral wellness in New York City. She has spent nearly 10 years helping adults and families navigate their life challenges through a combination of therapeutic approaches, including cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, which we talk a lot about in this episode, DBT,

and mindfulness-based stress reduction. So, She is on the show, as I said, to discuss how to handle the emotions that come with relationships, whether you're single, whether you are trying to build self-worth outside of a relationship. This was a really important topic that a lot of people have asked about. And I think a lot of people struggle with. As I said, if you're dating, if you're in a committed relationship, if you're going through a breakup or you are experiencing heartbreak, we talk about it all. We explore attachment theory, how attachment theory, played a role in our own lives. We talk hookup culture, acceptance versus tolerance, which I found to be really interesting, how to balance acceptance with the desire to change something in a relationship. We talk specific skills to use if you're feeling uncomfortable, how to use comparison to your benefit, and so much more. So please enjoy Dr. Maddie Lberger. Welcome, Maddie. Obviously, so happy to be here. Mostly so happy to see you. So excited to see you as well. And I was actually thinking this morning, you're now a three-peat. I only have a few three-peets on my podcast. And you're a three-peat like in this year alone. So congratulations. So many people love your episodes because not only do you have so much knowledge when it comes to DPT, but you also are able to make it really like tangible, I think, in real life. And you're very relatable.

Thank you. Anyway. So if you haven't listened to our other episodes, definitely. go back and check those out. We kind of talk about like what DBT is, how to use DBT skills for different situations in life. But today we thought we would focus on relationships, whether you're in a relationship, whether you are single, whether you're navigating dating life or just like a single period in your life or you're married, whatever your situation is. I feel like we all need DBT because I remember like just for me personally when I got sober and I started dating. I was like two years sober. I thought I was so emotionally like sound. Yes. And I was, but like when you start getting into all of the emotions and everything that come with relationships dating all of that,

it's like the most stable person can. Abend. Yes, for sure. You are like literally shipwrecked. Yes. Of a relationship. Yeah. So we all need skills. Why is that? I feel like partially it probably has to be like hormones, right? Like you can have a hold on your emotions, but then like you get giant hits of like oxytocin or things like that. And it's like, how do you overcome that? Okay. So I'm going to actually say something that's going to be sort of interesting to anybody who knows anything about psychology on here. And I think I'm going to go a little pop psychology, if you will, which is not my five usually. But a lot of what we see in relationships really does have to do with like attachment stuff. And so like the way that I understand that and the way that I like

use that in behaviorism is we're looking at like patterns of behavior that we've learned to adapt difficult situations. Right. So it's the same as like any other learning. But attachment really has to do with like, I mean, it has to do with your parents. I really think more about like the other relationships in your life and like your environment and your context and like how you received like praise like how people like what people liked about you, what people like. dating. And so, like, I think that, like, just when you're in a situation where you're being evaluated by someone else is, essentially that's what dating is. It's just like a constant personality test. And, like, are you attracted to this person? Like, that's just going to get activated. Like,

it just is. Like, it's also when you meet new people. It's the same idea. Like, what's your go-to habit? So it's really, it's like, what's happening for me right now? Like, what's my urge? Like, what are my thoughts? And then, like, how do I rein that in if I think that going with this thought pattern and this emotion pattern is like going to not do it for me, which I have lots of experience in. Same. I think it's really interesting that you say that attachment styles, I guess, can be a result of other things in your life besides your parental relationships. Because I think that that's the most commonly known attachment theory. Yeah. And I'm sure there is validity to it. But I feel like I personally am more shaped by some earlier traumatic relationship.

And experiences. And that has kind of shaped like how I respond and show up in relationships more so I think than my relationships with my parents. Okay. So this is just like a Dr. Alberger theory, if you will. This is not founded. Founded attachment theory is like, you know, based on your caregiver relationships. So the way that I understands like how attachment theory or attachment styles impact adult relationships is like we have this core way of. relating, I guess, with our parents that we learn. But then that gets generalized to everywhere else. How you responded to your parents, maybe, is how you respond to everyone else. But the older you get, the more impactful you're learning is, like the more, I think, tangible those memories become, right? You know, my parents got divorced, got back together, I got divorced. And I always had daddy issues, you know, meaning like I always felt like, I think with what I figured out is,

like, I always kind of feel like I'm coming from behind. Like, I need to be doing a better job in to keep someone around. I think that concept comes from the fact that like my dad was pretty unreliable. But I think that like the way that that's translated into like, you know, early friendships and like early dating relationships and things that I've seen myself do over and over again. And I'm like, why does this keep happening to me? Like I think that that's where we feel more strongly influenced or shaped, if you will, by our relationship. But yeah, it's like those other relationships that like you learned that pattern of behavior for somewhere. Right. So like let's say maybe that comes from your caregivers, but like that experience of doing those things over and over with

different people, I think is like what shapes are like attachment style in future relationships as well. We are approaching that time of year where everybody is probably starting to panic a little bit about what to get the people in their lives for gifts. So if you are not sure where to start, then this is a great place. So Urban Outfitters has such a wide arrangement of gifts and they actually have a really great holiday gift guide so that you can pick out the perfect thing for everybody on your list. So you can shop gifts for her, gifts for him, gifts by price or their top picked gifts for you. So they're at the top of the list for the reason. You can also shop the most popular styles to find the most celebrated gifts of the season and find gifts for everybody on your list. I appreciate that. I appreciate

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Hi guys, it's Jordan from the Balance Blonde Solon Fire podcast. On my show, we go deep on all things astrology, awakening, motherhood, channeling, healing, and so much more. A few years ago, I was diagnosed with chronic Lyme disease and the healing journey I embarked on at that time but set me on the path to radical awakening. Let's just say I had no choice but to change my energy and that opened me up to the most beautiful healing of my life. On my show, you can expect to feel like you're sitting in my living room chatting with old friends. Tune in every Wednesday to connect and hang on the balanced bond, soul on fire. I wonder if anybody has like a truly healthy attachment style, innately. I know that it's something that a lot of people

work on. But I feel like I came from a really stable household. And my parents stayed together and like they were around and I didn't have any like trauma. Like there was nothing there. It was really this first relationship that I got into when I was really young that spanned 14 maybe like pretty young. It was an important time developmentally, I think. And big brain plasticity. Yeah. And it spanned, you know, years upon years upon years, upon years. And it was really volatile. And it was definitely my first drug. I've talked about this before. Yeah.

And it was really traumatic for me. And like that I feel like shaped and informed like who I am as a person when it comes to like my relationships and my attachment more than anything. Well, it probably has. Like I don't disagree with that. I guess we could theorize a lot of different things. Like we could hypothesize. I'm not a huge hypothesizer because I like to like work with what's in front of me. I think that's what works best.

But like in theory, right, we could ask ourselves the question like, hmm why did I say this relationship was it a rebellion thing what you know like my parents were so stable like you were looking for something exciting like and here's a thing about like this idea of innate stable attachment so no attachment style is innate everybody's born like as like a blank slate essentially what with their own personal like emotional makeup right and so you could have the most like wonderful loving family in the entire world and that will be like really protective for you and like help build resilience but like if you're emotional like your internal emotional compass, like your internal emotional needs are not met by your parents for like not by anyone's

fault, then you're going to have an attachment issue. And so it has to do with like goodness of fit between parent and child. And there's no way of knowing that and no parent can know that. Every parent's really just doing the best they can. I like honestly believe that. And it's like perception too, right? So people could experience the same thing and have different perceptions and for one person that could be terrible. Yep. I'm sure like brain chemistry and all these other things come in to play. Well, that's like when I'm talking about like you're like, you know, your hereditary neurobiological emotional makeup. Let's say like we were twins in my dreams. And like let's say that I perceived our family as like being really rejecting, but you perceive

them as being really accepting. And it's just because we had the same exact experiences, like literally, let's say it lived in a bubble. But it's because of the way that my emotions impact me as opposed to the way that your emotions impact you, that I'm having that perception, right? Because emotions, behavior, and thoughts are all connected. So there's something driving something that's driving other behaviors. Yeah, I mean, my brother and I are a good example of that. Like, grew up in the same household, same parents, same environment, same school, same everything. And I went on to be a raging alcoholic and addict and had all sorts of behavioral issues growing up. And he didn't. And it's like nature, nurture, you know? Okay. So let's talk about

how this all fits into dating and relationships. So why don't we start with where we are culturally right now? and that is like hookup culture. Okay. I know that you don't have an issue with this, right? So I want to hear your hot take. Yeah. So I'm excited by this. The way that we live, the context we live in has a way of making things everything black and white.

Like everything is this or that, black or white, yes or no. And like, as you guys have heard, being dialectical, like, that's really antithetical. It's the opposite of being dialectical. It's this and that. And so when you look at hookup culture and there's all this like, you shouldn't be hucking up with people or like, don't put yourself on the hookup box or like, you know, conversely, do whatever you want. You shouldn't care what anyone thinks. Like, both of those extremes are, like, not really reasonable. And, like, as human beings, we're going to experience

thoughts that, like, you know, flow on the spectrum, if you will, of, I shouldn't be doing this or something wrong with me versus, like, fuck everyone, fuck this. Like, I'm just going to fuck who I want. And so my take on hookup culture is you have to know what you're getting yourself into, right? You have to be super mindful about, like, what's your purpose? Like, what's your goal? What are you looking for and how do you think that might make you feel? And so like if you want to go like hook up with someone, like, great. You have to be okay with the fact that you might not date them. Like you have to accept that. You actually don't have to like it. You don't have to be okay with it. But you do have to be like, okay, like I'm going to have sex with this guy because I want to.

Amazing. Fabulous. Like do it. Go off. And that might not lead to a relationship. You just need to be aware of what the consequences are. And this is really kind of like what we call in DBT coping ahead. like you need to think about how you might feel in lots of different scenarios and like plan for those. But there's nothing wrong with like hooking up. There's nothing inherently wrong with hooking up. It's when we have an expectation that isn't going to be met or we haven't expressed or we have an expectation that the other person doesn't know about and or we hope someone can change. It's the suffering that we do in our mind. It's the cognitive stuff that we do in our mind that like behaviorally makes us act in a way where we're like afraid to text or needy or this or that and the other thing. But ultimately, like, if we step back and we say, what can I get from this person, right? Radical acceptance, right?

Like, what is the scenario here? What do I want? What can they give me? Does that line up? If it's, like, friends with benefits, amazing. I have, like, a great friend with benefits. He's a fabulous guy. Like, I know exactly what that looks like versus, like, people that I want to be in a relationship

with where I actually different. So that, that to me is, like, it's about what you're getting yourself into and being mindful of that. Yeah. I think that the problem around. rises when your expectations change, which can happen because you can have a fuck buddy or friend with benefit or whatever. And you may develop feelings. You may get that like surge of hormonal and neurotransmitter activity and that attachment stuff that I feel like kind of happens on a

subconscious level. And suddenly like you're not okay with the situation anymore, which I guess goes back to what you said about being mindful. So like as soon as you feel that, you either have to communicate that or like change the situation. Wow, it sounds like somebody's been using her DVT skills. I'm proud, proud best friend. Yeah, essentially, yes. Like, especially with sex, like, that is something that I didn't say, and I'm glad you brought it up.

Like, there are hormonal and, like, neurobiological, like, neurotransmitters and chemicals to get released in our brain from sex that, like, actually can impact the way you feel about something. And at the same time, like, we need to think about that in advance. Like, if you start to like someone or if you think you might start to like someone, then maybe you're a person who needs to, like, step back a little. bit from the like, I'm just going to hook up with them. Because if that ultimately doesn't work for you, then, like, why are you still doing it? And then you need to ask yourself, why am I still doing this?

Like, what am I looking for here? Or, like, if things change over time, you express them, you see, like, you know, there's a couple different things. You can problem some or you can accept. It's like you can try to change that for yourself or you can try to change the environment, like you said. And there's no guarantee either way. But this is why it's like you need to think ahead for all of these different things and whether or not you're willing to address them or accept them or feel them because otherwise you're like swimming in the Titanic water. Love the Titanic, by the way. You may have seen on Instagram that I am back to my workout grind with Harley.

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Don't forget to use my link so they know that I sent you. With the holidays upon us, which usually mean holiday parties, holiday eating, maybe some travel. It can be pretty hard to stick to our wellness routines. I am traveling right now. And when these times are upon us, I just make sure that I have my foundational wellness habits in place that I know are going to make me feel really good no matter what. And then I can go out and enjoy this season. And one of those foundational habits, you guys probably know already, is AG1. I've been drinking AG1 for years. I initially started taking it because of some gut issues. This is how AG1 came to fruition in the first place. It was actually because the founder had gut issues and was on so many supplements and nothing was working. So he sought out to make this kind of all in one.

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first thing in the morning. It's something that I really crave. It's kind of this semi-sweet pineapple vanilla type flavor. And I just get this kind of zip of like energy and clarity and it has everything I need. It has prebiotics, probiotics, digestive enzymes for that much needed gut support, especially around holidays. It has magnesium, B vitamins for energy, support adaptogens to balance my body's stress levels, vitamin C, and zinc to help support immune health. So AG1 is really the supplement I trust to provide the support my body needs daily, and that's why they have been a partner for so long. If you want to take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1 and get a free one-year supply of vitamin D3K2 and five free

AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkag1.com slash blondefiles. That's drinkag1.com slash blonde files. Check it out. Let's talk about our DBT skill. When Maddie and I are spiraling about things, we like to engage with World War II content. Yes. That's how I would put it. Yes, that is exactly correct. When I was spiraling about something a few months ago, you had me download. What was the book? The daughter of Auschwitz? The daughter of Auschwitz, yes.

The most painful book to read ever. Very descriptive. Yes, put it that way. Very disturbing. I just put a TikTok off about this. It's really interesting. So I give this example to people all the time. And like it just happens that we are the same kind of weird and we like both are obsessed

with. So it works for us. But it doesn't matter what you're distressed tolerancing with. It matters how much it holds you. Like, I know my biggest spiral pathway is relationship stuff and like rejection. I know that about myself. And so I know that if I'm having an anxiety reaction or someone broke up with me or something's not going the way I wanted to, like I cannot touch content that has anything to do with

their relationship. Like I want no part of it. And I don't know where along the way it was like, oh, I love history. Like let me like fuck with World War II a little bit. No disrespect, by the way. I absolutely respect the history. I was just at a concentration camp. Like, we're joking around because we love each other, but, you know, it's not funny content.

It just is content that actually we're interested in. It's not going to trigger, at least for me, any relationships up. Watching Band of Brothers on HBO for the 15th time. I could basically quote it now. There's no really, it's all about the war. And so it keeps me really engaged. And so it to me, it's like, and people are like, but that's so sad. And I'm like, well, it's actually kind of interesting, feeling of.

really strong emotion towards something, as long as it's not the strong emotion that you're associating with, is actually kind of useful. You're displacing that emotional energy and that, like, kind of cognitive work that you do in one big emotion to another big emotion that's not harmful. That's, like, the real definition of distress tolerance. And we now know that Cardi B, shout out to our girl, Cardi B. Our queen is also not only obsessed with World War II, but also with FDR and Winston Churchill. So now this actually just validates us. And we hope to get you on the podcast. Cardi.

I think it's also like for me a perspective thing. But it definitely makes whatever problem I'm dealing with, especially if it's like in the context of a relationship. Right. Seem pretty like banal and not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. So I talk about distraction a lot. But the actual DBT skill is called distract with. accepts. Accepts. Excepts as an acronym, obviously. Well, maybe not obviously, but it's an acronym

for all this. Not obviously. I personally struggle with comparisons. Like, I don't ever make upward comparisons because I just like, what's the point? But like, I have a hard time looking at myself and being like, wow, I'm handling this better than I have before. And so I don't, I don't lean towards that. And that's okay. But like you, you do. And I think that's reflective of some of the internal work you've done on yourself. Not that I haven't done internal work on myself. No, but I think that I have such a clear delineation between before and now, because it's like when I got sober, everything changed. And I have to be really mindful of my behavior and my motives and my spiritual fitness and my emotional fitness, like in order to stay sober, you know, like, I mean,

we won't get into the sobriety topic because I've been talking about it so much lately. And we've talked about it before too. But like, it's not just not drinking for me. Like I don't think about how to not drink. I have to really like keep my side of the. street clean and be kind of the best version of myself in order to not have the desire to drink. Well, right. It's like the alcohol is the end result of a behavioral pattern, right? If we were going to do something called a DBT behavior chain, like the problem behavior is the alcohol, but it's really actually the thoughts and emotions that lead to the drinking that are the problem, if you will, or the thing that you need to be mindful of so that you don't engage in something impulsive because

you can replace drinking with literally whatever. I guess. that's true. And I appreciate that. I mean, I recently got broken up with also great guy. Shout out to you. Obsessed with you. Shout out. We won't say his name. You know, I guess I want to speak to the other side of like feeling your emotions, right? So I was really surprised. It came out of nowhere to me. And I personally struggled deeply with that. Like that hits me so hard when I feel like I'm getting whiplashed by something. And I knew there was no distress tolerancing myself out of that. Like I needed to, be able to feel those feelings. And that's a really hard thing to do. That was a really, really, I mean, I spoke to you. I said, like, I'm turning off for the next 48 hours. Like,

if you think I'm not okay, I'm not, but I'll let you know when I am. And, like, you also need to allow yourself to feel and then be able to know, like, knowing you need to bring yourself out of that. Like, DBT is, like, you can't distress tolerance your life away. You know what you mean? So, like, you can do problem solving. You can do all of the other things. But, like, ultimately, right, the goal of DBT is to come in and out of an emotion state, right? And so I knew, like, I needed to not be on that weekends. I canceled my patients. I canceled, like, turned my phone off, like made my sister, my best friend, like babysit me because I was just, like, sad and didn't want to be alone. And then at the end of the weekend, I said, it's enough. I put on Banda Brothers. I watched

the entire Band of Brothers on Yom Kippur Sunday night and Monday. And I started to function again. But there is a time and a place for feeling things. You have to feel things. You have to feel things, otherwise it's going to come back and bite you in the ass. And that's your point, I think, about like the chain of sobriety, if you will. It's not just not drinking. It's like you need to know how to experience all of those other things and take care of those. Otherwise, you're kind of fucked. Yeah. There's like something that people talk about in recovery about relapse. And they're like, the relapse doesn't happen when you pick up the drink. The relapse started long before you pick up the drink because it's about all of that. It's about your emotions and your behavior. And

And all of that. So the drinking is just like kind of the final piece to that puzzle. But how can people balance like the radical acceptance part of DBT with also like wanting to change? Yes. So let's like first clarify what you mean by acceptance and change. So in DBT we're we're often looking at the dialectic of acceptance versus change. Like what can we change? What needs to be different versus like what do we need to sit with? What do we need to accept? What do we not? What do we? What do we? What? what can we not change and we need to learn to tolerate that? And I'm very careful about my language here. I'm saying tolerate it. Like being okay with something is really different than accepting it. And so when we think about whether it be relationships or any other big emotion situation, we first want to think for ourselves, like where do we tend to naturally fall on this dialectic? Like I know I'm much more of a change oriented person than an acceptance oriented person. And I know for me that means acceptance is always going to be harder. And I'm always mindful of it in sessions with my patients because I can go for change and, like,

get people to do things differently. And sometimes that's actually not therapeutic or effective. And so I fall on the change side. I'm like, if you can change it, let's do it. And I'm very used to, like, I'll do whatever I can to do the thing that I need to do to change the thing. And so when there's come situations, like this breakup that I just mentioned, my acceptance of that breakup was turning my phone off and crying and being sad. That was acceptance. I could have. called him a million times. I could have put him on blast. I could have called him. I could have begged. They could have done a lot of different things, which I have done in the past. Like I 100% have. And those would be me not accepting reality. The reality was in that moment, this person said

that he wasn't ready for a relationship and therefore couldn't continue to see me because I did want a relationship. And there was nothing that I was going to do that productively was going to help that. There was no way for me to change that situation. And so what I'm stuck with is, I hate this. I feel horrible. I literally feel like someone's physically harming me when I get broken up with. Like that's just it. And it's like I have to be in that. Like because anything else I do is suffering. Anything else I do is a non-acceptance of reality. But that's always harder for me than change. I always need to take a step back and be like, can I actually do something here? Like have I tried everything? Because in DBT we change what we can until we can and then we have to accept. And I think if

you're like a type A person, sometimes like getting to acceptance place is really hard. It's like, but why can't I get there? And like just sometimes you, you just can't change something. And so that's, to me, like my version of that in a breakup is like crying and being sad until I knew that that wasn't good for me anymore. Like that wasn't going to work for me. And I was already in a place where I was emotionally less hot, if you will, that I wouldn't do something super impulsive. That's how acceptance also, by the way, leads to change behavior. acceptance allows you to see possibilities in the future. That's really hard. I struggle with it. I want to go back to something that you just said about we change what we change until we can't

change it. So let's talk about people who are in relationships. And I personally get a lot of messages from people who have been off and on relationships because everybody knew about my separation last year and then I got back. And it's something that I don't really talk about because he's private. But, you know, people ask like, well, how do you know when it's time to let go versus when it's time to get back together. So I feel like that change what we can change until we can't change it kind of applies to that situation. Totally. I'll connect what you just said about off and on to hookup culture. And essentially it being mindfulness of expectations and mindfulness of what's an option versus what you wish were an option. Right. And I think that's really applicable

here because, for example, a lot of us, a lot of my patients, a lot of my friends will talk to me. And And I've definitely been there just because I'm super, super mindful of this. I don't do this anymore. But I've, yeah, I've been there. Well, like, have an expectation of someone that we haven't actually expressed. And then it's like, you know, somebody yesterday, one of my patients, fabulous patient was talking about guys she just started seeing. And she was like, and then he didn't invite me for plans on this day.

And I was just like, that's so weird. And I'm like, well, hold on a second. Like, let's review all the facts that you just mentioned before. he had a big thing at work and blah blah blah he had a work happy hour that whole day he was being assessed and evaluated like wouldn't it make sense if you also said you don't want to just like do hangouts you also want to go on dates that like maybe he wouldn't just be like do you want to hang out after my happy hour and she's like I didn't think about that and I'm like you had just effectively expressed to him like hey like we've hung out twice we've gone on two dates like I want us to do

some more like you know out of the apartment stuff and I think that was great of you and so he was actually responding to that expectation and do you see where you made the switch in your mind of like another expectation of like I think he should have or I wanted him to invite me for plans on Thursday, but you were totally disregarding what you had actually already expressed. And so all these mental gymnastics are to say, like the idea of expectation versus reality or impact first intention really, really, really important. Like we can't expect someone to read our minds. And conversely, we cannot expect someone to do what we want even when we ask them to.

We can try and problem solve and we can communicate. And at the end of the day, relationships are about acceptance. There's certain things that you have to be willing to accept or not willing to accept in order to be with certain people. And that's really hard. And I think that's where we get caught off on the like, then self-judgment of like, I shouldn't be doing this. But I love this person. But like, it's really about like what do you know you can get? What are you okay with getting?

What are you not going to try to change if you can't get it? I know that it doesn't seem like this for you, but I feel like with your situation, like, I know how painful that was for you. You would try that. But I also feel like you did express what your needs were. And he did express that he couldn't meet you there. And so pain and everything and rejection aside, I totally get it because you know that's my thing too. Like rejection is like, it's like a physical. Yeah. Like you feel like someone's murdering you on the inside.

Yes, for sure. But in a way, it's also like kind of a gift that it happened that way instead of six months from now when you've put in so much more time and had more expectations of where it was going. And then, you know, had him say something like that. But it's so hard to feel that in the moment, obviously. Yes. And that's what needs to be felt in the moment. The suffering is this isn't fair or you should just stay with me anyway. Even like, you know, I could have gone a lot of different roots with this. person who's still my life, so I want to just be mindful. Shout out. But you could have accommodated that. Like, oh, well, we don't have to.

A hundred percent. Exactly. And then you're betraying yourself. Exactly. I could have stepped back on like my values. And that's when we start to have a shame and guilt reaction, right? Because we want to avoid a certain pain so badly because it's absolutely horrible that we'll do other things that are painful, but that we're like, it's almost like it's a pain we can

tolerate. It's like we all have these like things like, you know, I know how to do anxiety. I'm like really good at anxiety. I'm pretty good at anger. I'm not good with sadness. So that pain to me, like that loss where you like I truly feel like there's someone sitting on my heart and just like squeezing it for days on end. Like because I have done a lot of work on myself and I try to really live this treatment, I didn't go into the, well, what am I going to do, frenzy myself in order to make myself not feel that pain. The acceptance of the situation was that pain. And to this person's credit, he hands, he hands, it really effectively. Like he didn't do anything wrong. It just wasn't what I wanted. And so when my expectation didn't meet reality and I didn't see it coming, that was really hard for me. It doesn't mean

that I shouldn't be feeling that feeling. That's kind of exactly what I needed to feel. And again, that's like a really good example of radical acceptance. I had to accept. There was nothing he could have done differently. And nothing I could have done differently. Nothing I would do differently. And I checked with you about that like 17,000 times. You know, it's just like life is sometimes hard. That's why you need to be able to feel things and also know when you need to be able to change direction. Are there specific DBT skills that people can employ? I mean, I know that we're talking about them now, but like really quick kind of actionable things that somebody can do to deal with anxiety around, say, rejection or anxiety of a first date or just relationship.

like can they dunk their face in ice cold water? Like activate the whatever diver reflex. Yes, what you taught me about. What are some other things like that? Yeah. That people can do in the moment to kind of shift their, how they're feeling. Yeah. So first of all, you have to know that what you're experiencing is anxiety and we've all been to the place of like, oh my God, he didn't answer. So like, or he or she didn't answer so they don't like me anymore or like, they're definitely looking up with someone else right now. Maybe they are. Maybe they are. And like, sometimes your anxiety is. correct. And that's the problem with anxiety. Ultimately, you need to step back and be like,

okay, what's this thought doing for me? Like, regardless of whether or not it's true, thinking and feeling and like doing the spiral in that moment, like, not going to do it for you. So my personal go-to is that what I usually tell my patients, especially if it's relational, is I'll be like, this is when I say phone to friend, phone a friend and do not vent. You can say, like, I'm about to go on a date and I'm really anxious. I just need you to talk at me. And like, you have to have those like certain friends, like who you know will distract you. Like, I know I can text Ariel and she'll send me a formative voice note on purpose because I want that from her. Like similarly, like vice versa, you know, I can call my sister. I can call my best friend Jenny and like

they'll talk at me about literally garbage. My job is to pay full attention. If I want to not engage in the spiral, I almost want to listen to them like what I say to patients is as if I'm taking notes, as if I'm being tested. Yeah. So there's a couple of different things besides like calling a friend because like if someone's not available, like what do you do? You can listen to a book on tape, which I just aged myself, an audible book, an audio book. But again, it's like anything where you can take that information and almost try to memorize it. Because I think that's the best way to pull yourself out of thoughts. And a lot of like the spiral is the thought, then the physiological reaction that reinforces the thought.

And like, so it's like that thing. So if you're, again, it's not easy. And if you're like listening to a podcast that has not. nothing to do with relationships. You need to be mindful of like, I can't put on content that's going to be triggering. Like, I love music. Am I going to put on like the saddest music? In my feels playlist? Right. Like immediately now. Like I could, but then I'm setting myself up for failure if I don't want to be in that in that moment that way. So I like to say it's like whatever you can take notes on, take notes on it. Let's do a podcast, take notes. I'll oftentimes have patience.

Like if they're really, really struggling, I'll say, listen, go listen to the sport of a podcast. And I want you to send me the notes after and then I'll get on the phone with you. Right? So it's like you have to do this thing. You have to try this thing. And then let's check in about it after. I'm not just going to stay on the phone with you. Definitely. I want you to try to do this yourself and show yourself that you can do this. Or like I want to, I'm going to listen to an audio book and what I've been doing actually like in the wake up the breakup and just like in general, I will notice when I'm not pain like when I missed things and I'll just go back 10 seconds. I'll have to go back 10 seconds and back 10 seconds until I'm like, oh, this is where I left off. So it's actually really also like a great way to build your mindfulness and like your. awareness of where you are focused at any given moment. But it's also a good way to like engage in active cognitive energy. Like emotional energy and thoughts need need something that's going to match that, you know? And so if you're like studying for a test or taking notes or you have to report back to someone, like that's a great way to like put in cognitive work. That's not cognitive work in the direction of the emotion that you're experiencing. That's not working for you in that moment.

I like the phone of friend. That's like the whole basis. of like recovery. It's like the more I think about you, the less I think about me. If I'm feeling something distressing or whatever it is, I mean, I was trained from the beginning to just call other sober people, call people who are newly sober and ask them about themselves and don't talk about me. And that's what I tell everybody who I like work with sober to do. And I remember like in those early years, I used to work down in Orange County. So I drive from L.A. to Orange County, which could be 45 minutes to two and a half hours depending on traffic. And I literally would just call people other sober people, like, and just ask them about themselves the entire time. Right. And like for me,

that's the quickest way that I know how to get relief. To get out of your thoughts is like to put yourself in someone else's, like just to listen to someone else to be in someone else's, not like in someone else's shoes, but like to like be so attentive that like there's, you can't hear anything else. And I have said to you many times and like other sober people in my life, like, A.A. fits so beautifully with DBT. Like I, a long time ago had one of my first patients ever after graduate school in 2015 who relapsed when she was in treatment with me. This was a person who was in their, you know, mid-50s. And like I was like a twerk, you know.

And we really worked through it. And I don't have a substance abuse like clinical background really. it like, I'm just not good at treating it. And so I always have farmed people out to AA, but this was my first really intimate experience with the AA. And when she, so we counted days together, we did 90 and 90, like I would, you know, like all of this stuff. And at her one year mark, she'd been 27 years sober before that. So this was like significant. Yeah, really significant. And at her one year, and we, like, we talked a ton about AA because again, it fits really, really nicely and acceptance change. Like, you know, all of these different like skills and strategy is, and like, I think at its core, and we, and, like,

or they're really, really complimentary. Like, I personally love, love, love AA. But at the end of her one year of being sober again, she bought me like all the AA books. And so like I've also done like a personal research deep time on AA. And I've been to a couple of AA meetings with people. And like I love the way that like I can, I can like rely on AA as if it's like another treatment provider for my patients who

are struggling with addiction or need to be sober from something that is outside of my scope. Yeah, I mean, it's an incredible program. And I don't think that anybody has the monopoly on, you know, recovery or anything like that. But I don't like how people disparage it. There's no reason for that. And the people that do are trying to sell something. They're trying to sell their recovery program, their book, whatever. Or rationalize something also. Yeah. Like, you know, that's an emotion mind thing that like you're saying, different things work for different people and like what works for someone. Like should, there's no place for somebody else's judgment in that. And I, you know, personally love IA. Okay. How can somebody, this is a chat GPT question, everybody. Amazing. Thank you, chat, GPT. How can people work on building their self-worth outside of relationships? I think that this is such a common thing that we all experience. We place so much value and whether we're in a relationship or not. Who we're in a relationship with. Are they raising my status? Like, all of these things, right? People who are in relationships can do this too. Like, we all need to. We all need to be doing this. Yeah. So I almost said should, which is like against my values, but it's all,

it's almost a should for me, which I never, ever say. So I love this question. It's something that in a personal way, like professionally, I've always been able to talk about it. And then when I really experience it personally, like there's so much more depth and understanding, obviously. Like, so what you need to be able to figure out is how can you be okay with saying no? So like, can you be okay being alone, meaning not like when you don't have a choice, but sort of like, can you learn to opt out of plans? Like, can you learn to say no to a date because you're tired and see if you can reschedule? So that's a huge piece of it. That's the being alone piece is the like not constantly being afraid of not having something to do. And the other piece are like, what are things in your

life that are just interesting or valuable to you? Like literally anything. And create a goal. So I have like two examples of this. I went through a really, really bad breakup, the guy I was living with in Tel Aviv a couple of years ago. We were together for a long time. It was really, really like probably my first really traumatic breakup because my divorce was actually really simple. And so I was really in a hard spot for several months. And I think two months into like my trying to get myself out of that, I was like, you know what? I'm going to do something. I need to do something for myself that's goal-oriented, right? I know that I'm achieving this thing and I can hold myself accountable to it.

And so that's when I decided to get certified in Pilates. Oh. Because I was like, you know. She's a Pilates, girlie. She's a Pilates, girl. She is certified in all the Plotties things, reformer and mad. Again, like, it's why not just do something for myself? It's a separate goal.

I'm committing to something. I'm paying for something, right? Like, it was not cheap. It was like several thousand dollars. So I was like, I need to go to this training every single week. And what was even more, like, difficult for me, but I, you know, within my, what we call zone of proximal development, like, the place that I could learn the most by, like, challenging myself was the whole thing was in Hebrew. And I, so I speak flu in Hebrew, but this was like, you know, anatomical Hebrew and like all of these things that I had to like really, really, really pay attention and commit to this. And by having this, this was like, had nothing to do with anybody. I was like, oh, Tuesday's my day that I go sit in Plottis class all day. Like Plottis, like lecture. And. And, and. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And I can't say what the mechanism is exactly that like why this helps you, but it just reminds you that you have other things that you can like lean on. And that doesn't mean that you won't feel

sad, anxious, angry, lonely. It just means that it helps you tolerate it. It's like you don't have to get lost in that sea. I did the same thing with my half marathon this past May. I don't know how to run. Like in the rain, right? Wasn't it? Literally, it basically was a triathlon because I ran. It was the Brooklyn half. Anyone who ran the Brooklyn half will know what I mean. Just try Athlon. Literally try Athlon on minus the bike because I don't know how to ride a bike. But yeah, like I had just gotten through like a situation ship with someone.

I was like I need something to do. Like I need something to like commit to. And running was so hard. I have asthma. I have arthritis. Like I learned how to run 13.1 miles. It was really hard. And I completed it.

And I did that like in three months. And it really, I think really helps me lift myself out of the like being stuck in the like, I need this other thing to validate my. myself because I had a goal. I had benchmarks of how to reach it. So actually, that's called build mastery in DVD. I think that's a really great skill because I think so often when you hear other people talking about like building self-worth, it's like your career and like these other things. And there are so many women who are moms. They don't have a career necessarily or whatever your situation is. Like these are things that anybody can do. They can start running. They can do

call. They can start painting. Exactly. So many different things. I tell patients all the time. who are really in a tough spot, like really kind of deep in the throes of early DBT. Like, let's have you, can you afford to take a class? Like, let's have you, yep, pottery. Pottery is hot right now. Yeah. It's like, can you sign up for a class? Can you audit a university class? If you can afford to pay the couple of thousand dollars for it, go audit a class. Do a master class, right? Like, commit to something that you know that it's not going to be easy for you to complete because there needs to be a certain level of like challenging and it or refer to you to get like the benefit out out of it and that you're going to commit to.

And it could literally be anything. Similar to distress tolerance could literally be anything like it could be World War II content. Amazing. Well, where can everybody find you? You post really great DBT and other content. I recently. She's an influencer. She's posting OOTDs. Micro, micro, micro, micro, influencer. Listen, like, the people are asking for them. So that's why I'm posting. But you don't have a like to know it, right? No, they won't let me on because I'm not important enough. Oh. I have a shop by. Oh, okay.

Great. But you can find me at millennial mindfulness doc. That's my Instagram page. I recently learned how to do green screen. So now I shrink my head and talk about things for 60 seconds. It's, I feel elite and iconic when I do it. So there's that. If you want to engage in treatment, you can reach out to my practice at contact at

Downtown Behavioral Wellness.com. You can also Google me. That's the first thing that will come up. I currently do not have space in my caseload. However, I'm in the process of hiring at least one, if not two fabulous, amazing clinicians that I will be heavily training. And so it will be kind of like seeing me, but like a cuter version of me. So I encourage you. Reach out if you're interested.

Reach out if you're interested in DBT. You can DM me, but you're better off emailing my practice. And yeah. Thanks so much for coming back on. I love you. I love you. I hope you enjoyed that episode. And if you liked it, and if you like the show in general, please take a second to

rate, review, and subscribe. It goes a long way, and it's actually the best way to support the show. Also, if you want to see more about each episode, you can head over to The Blonde Files podcast on Instagram. You can go to areaallory.com, and I'm always posting about each episode over on my personal page at Ariel Laurie. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.