Well with Arielle Lorre - 304: The New Rules of Attachment and How They Affect Our Lives with Dr. Judy Ho

Episode Date: March 27, 2024

Dr. Judy Ho, Ph. D., ABPP, ABPdN is a triple board certified and licensed Clinical and Forensic Neuropsychologist, a tenured Associate Professor at Pepperdine University, and a published author. She joins the show to discuss the new rules of attachment and how that knowledge can empower your life beyond romantic relationships. We talk about self-perception, self-esteem, self-compassion, and how to stop sabotaging your life. We also discuss how your childhood shapes your reality, and what to do with that information. Dr. Ho also gives practical exercises for healing your inner child and finding closure with past and current traumas. Read Dr. Judy Ho’s book, The New Rules of Attachment: https://rstyle.me/+EHgChMtqNx88j5HWJd1mAwThis episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Go to boncharge.com/BLONDE and use coupon code BLONDE to save 15%Go to Article.com/Blonde for $50 off your purchase of $100 or more.Check out M by Maidenform at Maidenform.com and use code BLONDEFILES20 at checkout for 20% off your first purchaseGo to Chomps.com/Blonde for 20% off your first order, and free shipping.Visit Ro.Co/blonde to get your first month for $99 and $145 for subsequent months.Visit Ritual.com/BLONDE for 205% off your first month for a limited timeProduced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Dear Media IRL is back, and we're showing up bigger, better, and louder than ever. Join us on May 4th in Austin, Texas for the ultimate live podcasting experience. Watch and learn from your favorite dear media hosts as they bring their insightful discussions from your headphones to the stage. Get ready to be inspired, entertained, and watch audio get a makeover. Tickets are on sale now at Dear Media. media.com slash IRL. See you on May 4th in Austin, Texas. Welcome to the Blonde Files podcast. I'm your host, Arial Lori, and I'm here to talk all things wellness. From how to achieve optimal health and

well-being to the best beauty tips and everything in between, no topic is off limits. I know there's so much information out there, so I'm bringing on expert guests and sharing my own experiences to help you sift through all the wellness stuff without the BS. Enjoy the show. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the show. I have an incredible episode for you today. My guest is amazing. I'm talking to Dr. Judy Ho. She is a triple board certified and licensed clinical and forensic neuropsychologist. She is a tenured associate professor at Pepperdine University. She is a television and podcast host and a published author. She has a new book coming out called The New Rules of Attachment, which we are getting into in today's episode.

episode. Dr. Judy also conducts neuropsychological and psychodagnostic evaluations. She serves as an expert witness in legal cases. She conducts clinical research. She provides expert commentary to media. And she is a sought after public speaker. And she joins the show today to discuss her book, the new rules of attachment and how that knowledge can empower us in our lives beyond romantic relationships. So this is not just a relationship episode. We are talking about self-perception, self-esteem, self-compassion. We talk about how to stop sabotaging our own lives. We also discuss how our childhood shapes our realities, what to do with that information. And she also gives us these really practical exercises for healing your inner child and finding closure with

past and current traumas. Although it may sound a little bit heavy, this is a really interesting, really engaging, really upbeat conversation that I know you guys are going to love. So please enjoy Dr. Judy Ho. Welcome, Dr. Judy. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast, Ariel. I'm really excited to be here. Really excited to talk to you. Selfishly, I have to say that this topic is very relevant for me right now, the topic of attachment. I just got divorced last week. And, you know, I'm going to stay out of the dating pool for a little while, probably, but I am anxiously attached. it is an issue for me. So I'm really excited to just learn about the different attachment styles from you and the new rules of attachment, which is your new book as well. But to start,

can you tell us a little bit about your background? Because it's so fascinating. Your background is in forensic neuropsychology. Is that right? Yeah, clinical and forensic neuropsychology. So I do both clinical and forensic work. And I think that it's always been interesting to me, just the human psyche, like wanting to understand more about how our minds work and how you can apply psychology to everyday life. That was always such a huge interest of mine. And I think the forensic part came along a little later after my doctoral degree when, you know, kind of the next step of trying to solve these puzzles that human beings are is also kind of delving into that med legal world and sometimes, you know, looking at why criminals do what they do and whether they can be rehabilitated.

How could you provide treatment to somebody who seems resistant and doesn't even think that anything is their fault? And is there even hope for that? So I think that that was sort of a second part of my specialty that emerged more like in the last 10 to 15 years. I would imagine that's fascinating. Because they seem like so out of the ordinary people. Right. And you're just trying to think about, well, how can they just blend in like a, you know, wolf and sheaves clothing basically? Because that's how they commit the crimes that they can, right?

Like somebody has to trust them. somebody has to marry them. Somebody has to give them a shot at a business or a loan or whatever. And, like, they just do so many crazy things. And then you realize what's, you know, underneath it all. But they present as really charming people oftentimes. You know, people that we sometimes colloquially call psychopaths. Like, they know how to get to the bottoms of your soul. It feels like they understand you to a degree that makes you want to be near them. And that's how they can commit the crimes that they do. Interesting. What is usually at the bottom of it, if you can say, is it trauma? Is it attachment stuff?

Is it all, you know, early childhood, those kind of things? Like what makes somebody psychopath, sociopath, somebody a criminal? If you can say, I'm sure there's variations between everything. Usually it's a combination of things, but early childhood experiences is absolutely a part of it. It's been very rare where I've ever analyzed a person who essentially they were just born evil. Like maybe it's all genetics or all biological. They've had like a beautiful upbringing as a child. then somehow they still do these things. It's almost never the case. It's always kind of a combination of

probably some biological and genetic factors and then the environment they grew up in and many of them have grown up in traumatic experiences and environments. Other times they've had parents who reward criminality from a young age, perhaps their criminals themselves. So they get taught very interesting values that essentially make them antisocial individuals in our society. Yeah, so interesting. So let's go back to early childhood development as it pertains to attachment theory. Can you just kind of explain what is attachment theory and what is its significance in our lives? Yeah. So attachment theory at its very core is about those very early experiences and bonds that we have with the most important adults in our lives.

So for most people, that's a parent or parents, but it could also include a grandparent or somebody else who was important during your upbringing who was around. And essentially the person that you look to most to try to meet your needs and to try to communicate what you want. And the influence of that is that those early experiences that we have as children, we come into the world basically as blank slates. We're trying to soak up what's going on around us to learn about the world and also learn about ourselves. And so those early experiences really stick with us because you kind of take it as a rule of thumb for the rest of your life. And even as you grow up, even if your circumstances change, those. things are kind of part of an operating system that we keep carrying with us. And so because these attachment styles emerge from those early experiences, even as an adult, we still behave in certain

ways that are characteristic of each of the styles. And are we talking like when we're babies, I mean, before we even have memories, or can it be a little bit later? Where does that operating style? Where does that get imprinted in our brain? Yeah, it's such a great question. And actually, based on research, I think most professionals in this area would say it probably starts like the minute you're born. Wow. And like you said, before we can really be cognizant or have actual memories that we can recall when we're adults. But there's a part of your mind and body that knows, like was it supported, was it loved? When you communicated a need and cried, like was somebody there for you? And, you know, parents, you're never going to be able to do the right thing, quote unquote,

the right thing 100% of the time. It's kind of like the 80-20 rule with parenting. Like 80% of the the time, if you're available to your kids and you're behaving in a pretty consistent way and how you manage any kind of things that can come up with them, then your kids are going to be probably more securely attached than not. But even sometimes when parents are trying to do their best, they just impart these other insecure attachment styles onto their kids. And most of the times parents aren't abusive on purpose. They're not trying to traumatize you on purpose. They're not trying to stress you on on purpose. They just have a lot going on themselves. but as children, especially in those young ages when we're kind of self-centered in the way that,

not selfishly, but more so like you're just trying to understand who you are in this world. So everything you think it's related to you. Like if somebody is upset that day, you think, did I cause that? As opposed to, oh, my mom or my dad is just having a bad day. Like we don't understand that idea until we're much older. So in those younger years, when you see your parent being upset, you think it's about you. And then that gets imprinted into who you think you are and how you think the world responds to you. Interesting.

So it can be more of a perception thing than whatever is actually happening kind of thing. Exactly. No, I think it's such a good point. Like how much of objective reality is there when we're talking about interactions between humans, right? Everybody has like one side. Yeah. And I think that that's something that I see the most when I work with families or couples. Like one person will say this is what happened yesterday. And the other person says like almost a completely different story. I'm like, is this the same event? We talk about something different. But like that's so true. I mean, I think when we're talking about interiors. reactions with others, our perceptions are everything. Yeah. I've been sober for 10 years now. And in recovery, early on, I learned that most of my problems lie in my perception, including like my perception of things like my upbringing, my childhood, you know. And I think that we all kind of have this revisionist history and we all have different perceptions of everything. But it's interesting because, you know, I think I had a really good upbringing, good parenting. But I still turn to

out to be a raging drug addict, alcoholic, insecurely attached, like I said, like all these issues. And I didn't have major traumas and I didn't have anything out of the ordinary. But, you know, it's kind of clicking a little bit now where I'm like, well, maybe I just perceived something as, you know, having to do with me that didn't have to do with me. Or I perceived something as I wasn't getting a need met, even if I was getting that need met, essentially. Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, that's amazing that you have 10 years sober. And I think you're so right about perception and how much it influences. But I think that's true of everyone because an objective event can happen that somebody can observe like in the room, you know, for example, maybe somebody loses their

job they get laid off. That's an objective event. It's just something that happened in reality. But it really is about what we think about what happened, that colors how we feel and then how we act. And then it feeds back onto how we think, right? And so two people can get laid off. And one person can say, okay, well, obviously, that's disappointing and a little embarrassing. However, I kind of hated this job and maybe this would be my time. Like, I'm being pushed into, like, finding a better opportunity, where somebody else can just look at that as just a complete rejection, even though they weren't happy in the job. And it's like, oh, my God, what am I going to tell my family, my friends? Like, so mortifying. Like, I'm going to just go hide, like, you know,

in my room and, like, not come out for three days. Like, that's obviously going to lead to different feelings and actions and then further thoughts that might be self-deprecating. But, you know, that's why our thoughts are so important. You know, I mean, it's what makes us these like supreme beings like at the top of the food chain and like all of this amazing stuff. But also our thoughts are kind of the traps in our brain too because you can have so many ideas about what's going on. And it can really like cause you to feel down or feel anxious or like feel unsure about yourself. And it's just thoughts. Like they're not even, it's like so crazy how something like one thought, like one mental event can do that to us. Yes. Yeah. And we are we attach

ourselves to them and we I think misinterpret thoughts as facts. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The minute we have a thought, we think it's a fact. And that is kind of the hardwiring of language because language feels more concrete. So like whenever you have a thought, it's a part of your language. And then you just think, oh, then that means it's happening. Right. So like there's coping strategies to deal with that, of course, like really making sure to remind yourself like this is just a thought and nothing more. Like, I'm just having a thought. It's not what's happening. But it can be hard. in the moment when you're in distress. Totally.

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And I'm sure people are familiar for the most part with like anxious attachment, maybe avoidant, but there's also securely secure and disorganized. Are those the four? Yes, exactly. Yeah. So like you said, it is kind of a trendy thing on social media or like you see it on online articles. But I do think that there's a lot of misconceptions and my book tries to kind of shout those out right away, which is why it's called the new rules of attachment because I think in the past, people sort of thought,

well, one thing is attachment really kind of is seen, its impact is seen in your romantic relationships. And of course that's true, but actually attachment because it's part of that operating system, it really shows up in every aspect of your life. It shows up in your continued family relationships with your family of originates. with your family of origin, as well as any new families you create, your friendships, your collegial relationships, how you tackle your career, how you think about your own well-being and physical and mental wellness, and also ultimately what you think about yourself, your self-concept. So that's, I think, one misconception. The second one is that once you have an

attachment style, because it's in the past, it can't be changed. So a lot of what's out there is sort of like, well, this is your attachment style. So here's how to learn how to work with it. Right. Here's how you deal with it as opposed to, oh, maybe I can still show you. shift my attachment style to a more secure attachment cell at any age. And that's really the point is that even if the people in your early childhood that may have contributed in some ways to your insecure attachment style aren't available to do the work or don't want to, you can heal yourself through reparenting strategies and really addressing your inner child and any needs that were met. And so I think that those are probably the two biggest misconceptions about attachment theory.

Let's go over each one briefly. So let's start with anxious because I think that just Just from what I've seen, it seems to be the one that people identify with the most, either anxious or avoidant, but it can be awful. I mean, especially, you know, as it pertains to, like, romantic relationships. And that's kind of the context that I always see it talked about on social media and online articles, like you said. And it seems like a lot of people struggle with that. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, so anxious attachment. This is an attachment style that oftentimes it presents as somebody who might be the quintessential people pleaser and really needing to have that social reinforcement to feel good about themselves. So like needing people to acknowledge them, needing people to reinforce good things that they're doing or who they are. And also feeling a struggle with doing things completely independently, especially for longer periods of time without a person there to either support in person or just at least virtually in some way they feel like they're connected to that person. They need more reinforcement than the average person. And they're also a little bit more prone to codependency behaviors,

wanting to rescue everybody, putting other people's happiness and feelings ahead of their own and not communicating their own needs because they're afraid that if I do, what if this person decides that they don't care about me or they don't want to support me and I don't want to have to deal with that if that becomes a fact? And so those are some of the most prominent characteristics of the anxious attachment. Does that sound familiar? Some of them. It's interesting. Like I feel like really it only shows up for me in, again, romantic relationships. And, you know, I always think about where my issues kind of arose. And I had this really traumatic relationship, my first romantic relationship of my life from when I was like 14 and then off and on like till my early 20s and then

off and then on. And it was so, I mean, I always say it was my first drug. And when that started falling apart, that's when I turned to drugs and alcohol because I didn't have the tools to cope with that but up until then I was doing pretty well. So I'm, I always kind of grapple with are the issues that I dealt with a result of my childhood and parenting, you know, things that I don't even remember or was it this relationship. But then I also think we kind of seek out relationships that replicate familial relationships, right? So, you know, maybe something was happening or my perception of something was happening when I was younger. And then I sought this kind of relationship. Yeah. But that. So interesting. Yeah. So it really shows up for me in romantic relationships, not in my last one,

not in my marriage, but prior to that for sure. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. And I think that it really underscores a couple of things for me. You know, one is people absolutely can have insecure attachment tendencies and only certain areas of life, but not in others. Right. So like that's, I think that's another misconception now that you mentioned your experience is like, oh, so I'm just insecurely attached all the time. Like most people actually aren't. Yeah. There's areas of their life where they feel very confident and very secure and act insecure ways. But in certain situations that are pretty stressful or new, their insecure attachment shadows can come up. It's kind of what I call it. Like the shadow starts creeping in or only in certain

domains. So like I work with a lot of people who they're anxiously attached, maybe just in one or two areas of life, but not in other ones. For some people, it may not show up at all in romantic relationships, but more so at work and vice versa, right? And so I think that that's definitely a common thing that can happen. And then secondly, I was thinking about how you felt like your anxious attachment arose and that it came from a very traumatic first romantic relationship. So in that way, that was your first idea of like a romantic partner and what that's supposed to be like. So it does reflect back a lot on like an operating system that develops around that area of life. Whereas maybe for other areas, like how you are, you know, academically or like goals-wise,

it was just different because you didn't have those kinds of traumatic experiences. And that's why right now, you're still. securely attached in those areas of your life. And so that absolutely makes sense to me. Yeah. Also, when you're 14, that's like when you're like trying to figure out who you are. I know. That's like the worst time to have a traumatic romantic because you're like, who am I? How like, do people like me? Like what, you know, I mean, it's just you're grappling with so much self-concept stuff at that age. Yes. It's just so fragile at that time. Yeah. And any input you're getting is like, oh, that means it's forever. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was awful. But I do remember at that time,

too. Like my friends were in their first relationships too and like first heartbreak, you know, and they would be sad for a few weeks and cry and then they would move on with their lives. And I was paralyzed. Like there was something about it. And maybe that did go back to, you know, kind of early life stuff. Who knows? But yeah, it is interesting because I do feel, you know, so confident and secure in every other area of my life. So what are some ways that people can cope if they are anxiously attached? because I know for me too, like not to make this whole thing myself, but it really shows up a lot as like rumination. And it can be hard to focus on other things. And I hear that from other people. So how can people navigate this if it's something that they're dealing with, whether it's in a relationship or at work or in their interpersonal relationships? Definitely. Yeah. So actually I kind of give different terms to each of the attachment styles just to kind of make them visceral for some people. Because I'm like anxiouslyly attached. Like what does that mean? It's like I call the anxiously attached worried worrier. Yeah, because that's kind of what they're like. They do ruminate. And there's usually a purpose of the rumination. Like they're trying to solve some kind of problem. It's not just like, I like ruminating. Nobody does. You know, it's more like there's a problem I'm trying to solve in my head and I can't get my head around it. So I'm just going to keep worrying about it. And so some of the strategies are to really have a way to manage those ruminations so that they don't take over your mind. And so one technique, very, very simple one is a labeling technique. It's basically just labeling the thought.

as a thought and nothing more, like I'm having the thought that this relationship is headed for disaster as opposed to this relationship is headed for disaster because then it feels like it's real. But even just applying that little claws in front of any of your really negative thoughts or ruminations just helps to kind of give you that context of, oh, it's one mental event out of 10,000 I'm going to have today. And I don't have to necessarily give it as much energy or juice as I'm having. another thing that can be really helpful is to write down a thought that you're worried about and then essentially make a column that says evidence for and then another column that says evidence against. It's like, okay, like let's actually go through the exercise. I love that. I love pen to paper

anything. Yeah, because it's so different. It really slows down your thinking. Otherwise, the ruminations are just a mile a minute. And you can't lie to yourself when you're just writing something down. It's like truth serum. Exactly. Exactly. And also it slows you down. because you can only write so quickly with a pen or a pencil. And then once you look at it, most people acknowledge, oh, there's two sides to this story. It's really not just as one side as I thought in my head before I put pen to paper. So that's another really quick strategy in the moment that can be really helpful.

And then another one in social settings where you would probably, again, as more of an anxiously attached person, feel more self-conscious. So a lot of people will say like, oh, when they're anxiously attached, like they feel odd, like even going to a coffee house by themselves. It's not like when they're looking at their phone at a coffee house, but like literally sitting there and just people watching for 30 minutes. Like there's a lot of like negative self talk that comes up or like, oh, what are people going to think of me or like taking yourself out to a lunch or dinner? And so it's almost like these behavioral exercises where you just start to get really comfortable with like being in your environment just as you are. And then then you have your environment to practice mindfulness with as opposed to just living in your head.

Because that's also part of it. I work with a lot of people who have anxious attachment. and sometimes they'll cancel plans just so they can ruminate more at home. Oh, yeah. So it's like, no, like just keep those plans or like make a plan to take yourself out, like do something out of the ordinary and like really be mindful in the process. Yeah, mine showed up when I was going through a breakup. Voice notes.

Voice notes to my friends back and forth all day. Playing a situation over and over again, trying to look at it from different angle to the point where I mean, my poor friends. They would get the friendship podcast every day where it's, you know, 10 minutes of voice notes about the same thing. But yeah, I mean, I can totally relate to that. The rumination. That's how it shows up for me in the most prominent way. Let's talk about avoidant attachment because I feel like that's probably the second most common one. Definitely. Yeah. And oftentimes people who have avoided attachment get into relationships with people with anxious attachment. And so they just keep reinforcing each other's issues. But yeah, the avoidantly, attached person, some of the characteristics that show up for them is that they're like the quintessential lone wolf, like they want to do everything themselves. They don't want to rely on anybody. They think that like asking for help is a weakness. When things get a little bit intimate, like intimate, they get uncomfortable and they try to distance themselves. They don't really like talking about emotions too much.

It can kind of cause them more distress to see other people in distress. So they like excuse themselves and like remove themselves from those situations. And the thing is people who are avoidantly attached still want human connection. Like we all do is we're social beings and it's necessary for our survival and are thriving. But it's almost a way for them to to manage their distress because earlier in their relationships or their upbringing, they were maybe given the message that you're not supposed to talk about negative emotions. And you've got to just roll up your sleeves and just solve problems. And maybe they were even parentified children given lots of responsibilities when they're really young when they shouldn't have. And so those, of course, can turn up in all kinds of ways because

avoidantly attached individuals as a way to try to cultivate their own self-esteem. They just get really attached to being workaholics. It's a kind of addiction in and of itself, you know, as a way to cope, really going after goals and achievements rather than nurturing their relationships with people. And so that can be a real big problem for them when they're actually having any kind of relationship, not just romantic. Suddenly I'm identifying. You're like, maybe I'm a little avoided. Yeah, you could be a mixture too, you know. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a style of coping. And actually I think that some people who like exemplify avoidant attachment is a certain parts of their lives, they can almost seem really admirable to a lot of people. Because it's like, wow, you're such a go getter and you're self-focused.

But it's also kind of recognizing when maybe you're using that as a coping strategy. Right. I definitely think that I have shadows of avoidant attachment. And I've noticed that sometimes if I'm going through a really stressful time, like I just lean harder into my work. Yeah, me too. Because it makes you feel good about yourself. So it's like on the one hand, it's like, okay, good. like to an extent that's probably healthy coping.

But maybe like if it's taken too far, then you're more prone to burnout or like, you feel like you have to keep going to like feel okay. Then you have to like take a step back and be like, okay. Right. Maybe we have to do something different. So is that how you discern from what is just normal drive versus what is avoidant? Like if it's something that you're doing as a tool to cope with something or avoid something or numb something. Like where's the line?

Exactly. Like to cope or to maybe run away from an issue. Got it. People with avoidant attachment, you know, true to the name, oftentimes use more avoidant coping. Avoidant and escapist coping. I mean, that does include various forms of addictions, but it can also include things like workaholism. That is a form of a process addiction, in my opinion, for some people, not maybe in the sense

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process type addictions, they tend to be things that people find kind of admirable and you yourself find admirable too. So it's what we call like egosentonic because you get rewarded for it both in the way that you think about yourself and also by the environment. People are like, wow, you got so much done. It's amazing, right? Or you like over-exercise. You look like the best you've looked in your life. You're like, oh my God, you look beautiful. Like you're so fit. And I think that the line that you have to discern is that is it you're only coping whenever you're stressed? Like do you have any other tools in your arsenal or is it always this? And then are you doing it at the exclusion of something else that needs your attention? So like if you start to overwork to the point where

your family relationships are falling apart and your friends are like, we don't even know where you are. We stopped inviting you because you never come. Like there's other consequences that you're not dealing with. I think that's like another red flag that okay, like maybe this is the more negative aspects of my insecure attachment coming out. And I actually talk about in my book that, you know, when we see the social media posts and the articles online, we're always talking about like the most horrible parts of each of these insecure attachment styles. But there's also good parts to these insecure attachment styles. And I also want people to know and own that, you know, and so again, going back to anxious attachment, I mean, they're people pleasers and sometimes

they end up burning themselves out in that way. But like, they're the best social support because they have so much empathy. You know, they can understand what it might be like to be in your head a lot more because like, oh, I've been there. Like, I've ruminated about that before. So they're great advice givers, you know, and so there's certain parts of it that are positive as long as you're not overdoing it and hurting yourself in the process. Yeah. It reminds me of another thing in recovery, which is where you look for your defects of character. But I learned that, like, your defects can also be assets when used correctly. So it's not all bad. It's not black and white. There is some gray there. Exactly. And it's also part of the work of self-compassion,

which I think is just like the hardest for everyone. Kristen Neff. Yeah. Like sometimes I think we think that if we're hard on ourselves, it'll help us to do better somehow or like motivate ourselves. But actually those negative self talk scenarios are just going to make you feel so bad about yourself. And then that way you don't even think you deserve good things.

And so it kind of has a counter effect. And so even that work of self-compassion of, okay, like you said, you know, there's these things that maybe I wish we're different. But actually when harness correctly, their strengths. And like I bring value to the world by being. this way. Right. Let's quickly touch on disorganized because that's one that I'm not familiar with. Yeah, this one is the most misunderstood, too, out of the insecure attachment styles. I think when you look on social media, everyone just basically says, oh, it's basically a combination of avoidant

and anxious, but it's really not. It's kind of its own style. And I think that the main thing that it's characterized by is just a lot of emotional dysregulation, like really hard to manage your feelings. And then also kind of being in a perpetual fight or flight experience. So it's almost like you're constantly amped up and looking around you, looking for the next danger, the next thing to take you down. Yeah. So I call this style surveillance specialist because that's kind of what they're like. That's also me. Yeah. You're like that's a little bit of me too. But I think that, you know, it comes from a place of, again, self-protection. So even having compassion for yourself of, okay, you know what? Like maybe I'm this way because I'm just trying to be protective of myself and the people that

I love and how can I harness this in a way that's going to be more positive. But I find that a lot of people who have disorganized attachment, they have had some area of their life where they have experienced trauma. It may not be from their family of origin. It could be, for example, like you, you know, a very pivotal romantic relationship at a time where like all of this was so important. It could even be in adulthood maybe when like something really tragic happens to a loved one. That's a type of trauma too where you're like, oh my gosh, you know, this could happen to anyone at any time. And then all of a sudden you develop this more disorganized way of relating. And so, you know, similar to the other styles, it's also a.

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So the inner child is something that is a part of, I think, it's the part of us that is metaphorical little you that certain unmet needs are there, certain like negative memories are lodged there. And it just took that into your adulthood thinking like this is kind of how the world works. And so reparenting is really about using your adult self, who is in a different situation, who has more agency, who has more control over their environment and who has more tools to go back and say, well, what is the needs, need or needs that my inner child has? And really finding that out and then nurturing those needs as your adult self. So you're kind of providing a more healing experience to make that bridge from that past trauma or past stress and knowing and

teaching your inner child. Like, it's okay and that you can still get your needs met. You can communicate them and I will hold them for you. And so some of this takes place in visualization exercises where you visualize, literally just try to visualize your inner child, expressing a need to your adult self and then your adult self providing your inner child some encouragement or like making a commitment in the next 24 hours. Here's one small thing that I can do to try to nurture that need for you, right? And you can do this very quickly, you know, once a week. And you can see that there's a huge transformations to how that insecure attachment evolves. But there's also a lot of other techniques that I go through in my book, like more innovative things that people haven't really

probably heard of in like the general pop psychology of things where we do like mirror work or like empty chairwork and shadow work, like really, really fun things that are really thought provoking and just different so that it kind of really jostles you just a little bit. Like, oh, I haven't heard of this technique before. Like this is so different, but it really helps us to like connect with that part of ourselves and heal that insecure attachment. Can you explain those a little? I am familiar with them from my multiple stints in rehab, but yeah. But for the listeners who don't know, can you just briefly like explain? Yeah, definitely. How that's so impactful. For sure. So mirror work, I think is one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do when I was learning about the technique.

A really simple way to start this is literally just like take a mirror and then put that. timer on your phone and just look at yourself in the mirror and see how long you can go until you feel so uncomfortable you have to like turn away and like distract yourself from it. Most of the times people don't last more than a minute or two because it just feels like so like it feels like oh my gosh like someone's staring into my soul and it's me. So it can be kind of emotional and a little bit uncomfortable. But it's such a great exercise for like understanding what your inner needs really are and also having self-compassion, like looking at yourself in the mirror and being like, I like and I

value what I see in the mirror, no matter what kind of day I'm having, no matter what mistake I made today, no matter how much I'm blaming myself for something. And it's a great practice just to like kind of work into like a weekly routine. Empty chairwork is so interesting and so fun because it's kind of like having conversations with people that you might be in conflict with or have like some past stress with, but imagining them in the room with you and then imagining them in the empty chair in front of you. So there's two chairs in this exercise. And then you being yourself, communicate what you're stressed about with this person and like any questions you have for them. And then you like switch chairs where you then physically manifest that person as much as possible and like

try to get into their head and how they would respond. And it's such a healing exercise because sometimes we can't talk to the people that have heard us or we're in conflict with. And it's a great exercise to be able to process on a deeper level what that might be and get to a closure when you don't have a way to practically do that in real life. And then finally, shadow work is really about bringing out that part of you that, you know, kind of like what you were saying before of like, oh, like this is something that I might see as a defect in character. And sometimes you try to hide that from the world, like people don't want to see that part of me. But inviting your shadow self-out to play and like really acknowledging your shadow and actually embracing your shadow is not only another route to

self-compassion and healing attachment, but it's also a route to better self-esteem. Because to have good, solid self-esteem that isn't going to just get kind of like knocked by anything that happens throughout the day, you have to accept all the parts of yourself, not just the parts that you think everybody likes. Yeah, so true. Not to relate this back to recovery, but it's kind of top of mind because I was talking about this, I think, last night. But, you know, in recovery, you really do so much work to uncover everything. Oh, I know. You'd be so honest. Your thought processes, your defects, your assets, your behavior, your part in everything. and I think it can be like intimidating, but the biggest thing for me in not drinking and using

anymore was just being my authentic self and like loving who I am, the good and the things that I need to work on. I won't call it bad. And so so much of my addiction, conversely, was drinking and using to like maintain these facades of who I thought you thought I should be. You know, it's exhausting. It's exhausting to have to like monitor yourself in that way. Yes.

Keep the bad stuff out of here. I mean, it's so helpful that you're sharing these experiences from your recovery because I think that they're going to resonate with a lot of people, whether they're in recovery or not, of that idea of like trying to embrace the whole self-self. That's such a hard challenge for so many people. But when you do, you can really free up like the parts of you that's been so on guard that's been limiting you from being able to like actually self-actualize and do all the things that you wanted to do in your life. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Very well said. Well, what are some of your favorite new rules of attachment? if you can just break them down. Definitely. That attachment styles can be healed at any age and any stage of your life. That attachment ultimately goes back to your self-concept and what you believe about yourself as well as what you can vision for your life.

So when you have secure attachment, your dreams are all achievable. Your best life is out there for the taking. And it just takes that time and energy that you invest in yourself ultimately to be able to reach that level in your life. And then I think the last thing is like the idea of your inner child that it's always there no matter how old you are and like just always checking in with it because oftentimes its influences can't be seen readily. But it's always there to say like, hey, I need something like is somebody out there to help me? And your adult self can say, yeah, I'm here. And even if I don't have all the answers, like, I'm here for you. And that's really, that's really all you need to do for your inner child to feel safe. I think it's so scary for people or it's daunting. You know, I feel like people don't want to like acknowledge the inner child. Yeah, especially because as an adult, you feel like, oh, I'm supposed to be responsible all the time. And like if I acknowledge my inner child, like, that's just an infantile part of myself. It feels very vulnerable. It feels really vulnerable. Yeah. But that's why the reparenting work starts with you soothing your inner child, not like relying on someone else to do it. Yeah. And not even a therapist. I mean, they're there for the journey. But ultimately, you have to accept your inner child. You have to acknowledge your inner child. And you have to be the one to meet your inner child's needs. And that's probably. And that's probably. like my favorite rule, my favorite new rule of attachment. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Tell everybody where they can find you. Okay, great. So I'm on all the social media platforms.

Instagram is my primary at Dr. Judy Ho. And you can also check out my website at Dr. Judyho.com. I do lots of giveaways and free resources there all the time. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that episode. And if you liked it, and if you like the show in general, please take a second to rate, review, and subscribe. It goes a long way, and it's actually the best way to support the show. Also, if you want to see more about each episode, you can head over to the Blonde Files podcast on Instagram. You can go to Arialore.com. And I'm always posting about each episode over on my personal page at Ariel Lorry. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.