Well with Arielle Lorre - 339: When to Leave a Relationship, Why People Cheat, Playing Hard to Get & Listener Q&A with Dr. John Delony

Episode Date: August 7, 2024

Dr. John Delony is a mental health expert who offers guidance on relationships, anxiety and wellness on his hit podcast The Dr. John Delony Show. He joins the show to answer all of your pressing relationship questions including when you should leave a “good” partner, how to balance not settling with realizing nobody is perfect, why men cheat and emotional vs. physical affairs, the important distinction between attraction and desire, whether we should play hard to get and make someone chase us, the crisis of comfort in modern relationships and so much more. Subscribe to Patreon for exclusive weekly content: patreon.com/ArielleLorreThis episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Visit fromourplace.com and use BLONDE for 10% off sitewide. Visit Cora.Life/BLONDE and use BLONDE for 20% offVisit oliveandjune.com/BLONDE for 20% off your first mani system. Go to novoslabs.com/blonde and use code ‘blonde’ for 10% off your first month’s Core subscription. Go to start.culinahealth.com to book your first session with a registered dietitian today.Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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says, Uno dos no stress. No, no-verwashed cost, always full-ledged. So, foo-hueur without your re-sadviseur or sunnycars. The following podcast is a dear media

production. Welcome to the Blond Files podcast. I'm your host, Ariel Lorry, and I'm here to talk all things wellness. From how to achieve optimal health and well-being to the best beauty tips and everything in between, no topic is off limits. I know there's so much information out there, so I'm bringing on expert guests and sharing my own experiences to help you sift through all the wellness stuff without the BS. Enjoy the show. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the show. I know I say this a because I really truly love my guests and the episodes that we record. But I really think that today's episode is one of my favorites that I have recorded recently, at least in the last few months. And I think you guys are going to absolutely love it as well. I'm talking to Dr. John Delany.

He is a mental health expert. He offers guidance on relationships, anxiety, and wellness on his hit podcast, the Dr. John Delany show. He's been over two decades in crisis response and working in higher education. He earned two PhDs along the way. And now he is, like I said, a podcaster. He's a national bestselling author. And I just think that he has this real knack for making people feel seen, making them feel heard. He's totally non-judgmental. And I think he gives really great advice. So I had him on the show to talk about relationships, but whether you are in a relationship or not right now, whatever your status is, I think this episode is going to be relevant and really interesting to you. So I had you guys send in questions

and we took them and we both shared our perspectives on some of them. I shared a lot of my own experiences. So there's a lot of self-disclosing in this episode that you might find interesting. But again, I just think his advice and his perspective is great. So we talk about when you should leave a good partner. I know that when I started talking about that earlier this year, it really resonated with a lot of people. We talk about how to balance not settling with realizing that nobody is perfect. We talk about why people, specifically men, cheat. I know that women cheat as well, but we focused on men in this because that was how the question was worded. We talk about emotional versus physical affairs. We talk the distinction between attraction and

desire and why it's so important to maintain desire throughout a relationship. We talk whether we should play hard to get when we are dating, whether we should make somebody chase us. We talk about the crisis of comfort in modern relationships, which you guys know I feel passionately about and so much more. So like I said, regardless of your status, this is stuff that we all deal with. There is something here for everybody. I know you guys are going to love this episode.

Please enjoy Dr. John Delany. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Really looking forward to talking to you today. Awesome. I have some spicy, difficult questions from the audience around relationship issues. But I would love to start by just having you introduce yourself to the audience. Yeah, just off mic. I'm John. I have some chickens and some dogs. I've been married for a long time and I've got two pretty rad kids and live in Nashville, Tennessee. spent most of the last two decades working in universities as a dean of student sitting with

people when everything fell apart and then doing crisis work in the evening. I think I'm in year four or five of getting out of that and joining just crazy media world. What did you learn from the crisis work? Oh, so much. Just sitting with hurting people for so many years and you can have all the right theories and all the right answers. But when you're sitting with somebody who's hurting learning how to be present and be quiet and be a stable presence is its own skill set. I would imagine that you dealt with a lot of different circumstances, but were there any universal things that were kind of at the root of whatever crisis was presenting? Almost always people don't need your words. They need you just to show up and just sit there.

The personal story is my wife had an emergency search. surgery and after seeing her run down the hall in a wheelchair with the head of the OBGYN. I remember, I was holding my son's hand and I thought, well, this is the last time I see her alive. This is it. And I've just shown up to enough crisis situations. I could see that look in the doctor's eyes. And so somebody came and picked my son up. And then about 30 minutes later, one of my buddies that I hadn't called or somehow the word had gotten around. and he showed up and just sat right next to me. Big tall, this is in West Texas, big tall cowboy hat, boots the whole thing.

And he said nothing. And it was one hour and then two hours. And then when they came in and said, we saved her life. She was pregnant time. So we lost pregnancy, but we saved life. And I'll never forget he grabbed my shoe.

I looked at him. And he started crying, tears I didn't have yet. But he said no words. He didn't say anything. And that was just peace the whole time. So I think we often, whether I was showing up to a situation where a mom had lost a child or someone had lost their granddad and everybody in between most of us like, what do I say? How do I say? Just show up and be still and sit with people. I think that's what most people need most of the time in those gnarly moments. Wow. That's such an important lesson. And I think that will help so many people because we all have those experiences, unfortunately at some point. And I think we do really struggle. What do I say? What do I do? Am I saying the right thing? Am I saying the wrong? thing. Yeah. Just the presence can be so powerful. Yeah. Or sometimes saying the words like,

I believe you. Yeah. I believe you. Yeah. Or I hate that for you. Like that's like I guess. Validating. That's right. Yeah. This is the worst. Nope. People don't need advice. I'm going to bring tacos. Just stay there. Right. I'll bring nachos and just just chill, right? Yeah. Yeah. So how did you decide to focus on like anxiety? That was your last book, right? Mm-hmm. And now, you know, you're talking a lot about relationships. How did you kind of hone in on these specific areas. Anxiety was the last 20 years. The 18 to 30 year olds have shifted. And so when I started working with college students, it was about what's my major and what I want to do when I grow up. In the last 10 to 12 years, it was X number of students, you know, are suicidal. X number of

students can't function, right? Their families are falling apart. And so that became a, like I needed to learn a skill set that I didn't have. And then I had my own experience where where I had a great marriage, good kids, a good job. And I just imploded from the outside, from the inside out. And so it was a adventure I'm trying to figure out, how do we all get anxious at the same time? Like that's, we didn't all break at the same time. There's got to be something in the water.

And that was a pretty fascinating journey. How did you find yourself out of that? I don't think I found my way out as much as I redefined what anxiety is. And it's not a problem that we're not broken. There's nothing wrong with us. In fact, most of us, that means our bodies are working pretty good. And it's just, our bodies have detected something in our environment that's not good or safe. And when you try to fight that, you end up going to war with your body, which is never a good win, right?

But instead of being frustrated by it, now I try to ask myself, it's my body trying to protect me from here. And sometimes it's right. And sometimes it's remembering things from 30 years ago that have no bearing on right now, right? But that's a much gentler, curious way to interact with the world than always being. at war. And usually my body's pretty smart. Yeah, we were just talking before because I was saying that I have this big speaking engagement tonight and I have so much anxiety over it. And it's funny, yesterday when I was starting to kind of psych myself out, I remembered something from maybe 25 years ago. And it was like, but remember that time that you had to read that thing in front of it? And it's like,

where does this come from? You know, it has to be some kind of protective thing because my brain is detecting danger, right? It doesn't know the difference between the speaking engagement tonight and getting chased by a bear, I would imagine. Well, I like to say that your body puts little GPS pins in these moments. Yeah. And here's how I see it play out in relationship. So imagine dad wasn't super safe growing up. And when his car pulled in the driveway, you knew I'm just going to go in my room and shut the door, or I'm going to be a big distraction so he leaves mom alone or whatever story your nervous system lived through. Well, then 20 years later, you get married. and your partner's car comes up the driveway

and you naturally just find yourself stopping what you're doing and you head into the other room and your body has a script for it and usually those of us who have that script marry somebody who's got some abandonment issues and they see you walking out of the room right? They walk in and they chase you

and it just starts this dance right? Yeah you say we marry our unfinished business that's right that's right and so it's asking yourself what are you trying to protect me from? from her, from him? No, they're amazing, right? And so I have to teach my body that I wasn't safe then, but I'm okay. And you've got to practice it. And we don't have a lot of space for practice and relationships in our modern world. And so it's tough. Millions of Americans live with chronic

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You might know me from Not Skinny Bonafut on Instagram where I spend my time talking about reality TV, celebrities, everything happening and pop culture every Tuesday. Okay. I also talk to some of our favorite celebs and reality TV stars. We talk about what's going on. Tune in every Tuesday and just feel like you're talking to you're talking with your best friends in your living room. It is 2024. We are learning more and more about what ingredients are lurking in our household products, our beauty products, our self-care products. And we are not just putting anything in our body, especially for me when it comes to period care products. So I recently made the switch to Quora and I absolutely love them. So Quora makes comfortable, reliable period care products

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Again, that's C-O-R-A. dot life slash blonde. Don't wait, get 20% off with the promo code blonde at cora. dot life slash blonde. Yeah, so I asked my Instagram audience relationship questions, and I think we should just dive into them. I can't wait. They gave up with.

Do some deep dives. So this one I could relate to a lot, having just gone through a divorce at the end of last year, and now I'm in a new relationship. That's amazing, which I was not planning on, but here we are. And this person asked how to let go of the fear of losing a new wonderful relationship. I'm self-sabotaging. Oh, man. I think you have to catch yourself holding it really tightly because you'll suffocate it, right?

And I think that all comes back to being in tune with what your body trying to protect you from. And unfortunately, with relationships, the only way to assure yourself that you're going to lose it is trying to smother it, right? It's trying to keep it captive. And so recognizing, I've got my own stuff going on, and I'm super tense about this thing, which I'm going to force. my partner to respond to to my tension, right? My angst. And so I'm going to smile and lean into that discomfort of I got to be fully vulnerable, fully present. Otherwise, I'm guaranteeing this relationship can't work. And that's scary, right? Especially on the heels of a relational loss, right? Yeah. The fear of going through it again. So going back, like, your body put a GPS pen and the deepest love is

also where that deepest hurt was. And then you're entering into it again. And your body's like, no right this got us hurt last time and you have to say you're right you're right to sound the alarms and i'm in ahead it anyway how do we ensure that we do not marry our unfinished business once again you don't or is it just a cycle that we repeat over and over again i think in relationship the one thing you can ensure is i'm going to continue to try to show up in the next moment and that's a scary hard thing to do right that's a terrified thing because there's no was esther perils says all relationships are risk and it's always going to be a risk. So the idea of I want certainty, it's never going to be there and you end up you end up leaving good relationships or you end up metaphorically, right,

not in real life, but you beat up your partner because they're not giving you that certainty that you're so desperate for. They can't meet that. Nobody can. That's just scary. I would love to dive into the topic of leaving a good partner and a good relationship because that was really what I struggled with, and I've talked about this on my show a fair amount recently, how do you know when it's time? And somebody asked here, the balance between not settling and knowing that nobody is perfect. So for me, it was like, I have this great person, but we're not that compatible anymore. The relationship is not fulfilling for either of us, but we're really comfortable, and there's companionship, and things are okay. So that was such a struggle. And when I started talking,

talking about that. I got so much feedback from people who are in the same situation. And, you know, we're told not to settle, but then we're also told that nobody's perfect and relationships are work. And so it's like, how do you balance those things? I have learned to use feelings as a, it's a data source, but feelings job is not to tell us the truth. That's not their job. Their job is to keep us alive. And so kind of like I don't measure from here to there on the other side of the room in gallons. Gallons is a great measurement, but it's, wrong measurement for measuring from here to there, right? I'm going to use yards or inches or feet or something. And so similarly, like, my feelings are important and I got to pay attention to them

and I got to, they're important signals, but their job isn't reality. Their job isn't truth, right? I think we always have to have a practice in relationships of coming back and saying, what are we building and what is the state of our marriage right now? And I think most of us wait until it quote unquote doesn't feel right. And that's just the wrong proxy, right? Or it's the wrong measurement for how things are going. I could feel really frustrated, but that passion and that frustration is good.

That means things are right. You know what I mean? Or I can be really angry and anger is good when it's pointed towards something we care about, right? So I think it's backing out of how does this feel and being really pragmatic and honest and having an open dialogue with what are we building together? and where are we moving towards?

What are we co-creating together? And if you can't have that conversation, that's usually the path that this relationship's headed down an exit ramp because we're not building anymore. Yeah, and I would imagine when there's indifference to what you're building. Yeah, that to me is,

and I think people, you said it so eloquently, we say things are quote unquote good, and our proxy for good is comfort. and if we were to take it out of relationship and put that in a gym, right? You would never say I had a good workout because it was comfortable. You'd say had a good workout because I really got pushed. The trainer pushed me hard and I feel stronger after this thing. There was extra weight on the bar.

That was a good workout. But in our relationships, we're like, it's good when things are just super chill. And I just, I don't, it's that indifference, right? It's that quiet life of desperation. That's not a good relationship. But it feels, I don't want to rock it. and it's predictable. That's not always the best proxy for things

are going well. When you start using words like indifferent or they don't care or I can't root for them anymore, their victories, I'm like, or vice versa, your victories are like, well, what about, now we're headed towards resentment,

which is relational ash, right? And so it goes back to what are we building together. Yeah. That comfort part, I think that that's kind of the key here. I think that we're all so, averse to potentially feeling discomfort. And I know when I was going through my divorce, I looked at all

of my fears with somebody that I work with in recovery. And at the root of all of those fears, what am I going to do? Where am I going to go? What if I don't meet somebody? She said, what is at the root of all of these? The potential that I might feel temporarily uncomfortable. And she said, you know, part of being a big girl is learning how to deal with discomfort. And I was like, Way harsh, but noted. Thank you. And, you know, in my own life, I can take a step back and see how some of the greatest gifts in my life have been from walking through discomfort. But it's so hard to have that perspective. Yeah, my buddy Michael Easter wrote, I think a modern day masterpiece called The Comfort Crisis, which is an extraordinary read. But I think accidentally in our culture, we created a world where,

like, I love air conditioning and leather seeds. So who doesn't, right? and health insurance and you and I can both just like push a button on our phone and food shows up, right? Like I love comfort, but we accidentally in the pursuit of comfort made uncomfortableness, discomfort the enemy. And it's not, right? You don't go to the gym and take all the weight off the bar. Or you don't go to therapy and just say like, we don't talk about these things. Like those are the things you talk about, right? And so, or you don't go to recovery meetings and you're like, these memories are off limits. Like that, no, that's where we're going to start. It's seeking. that discomfort. And in your relationship, we're like, I don't want to push on that because that's where

you have to start. That's where the lights need to be to shine, right? And that's where the good stuff is. Okay. So the second part of that question, balance between not settling and then accepting that nobody is perfect. How do you navigate that? It almost sounds like an apples and oranges kind of question. Settling is like nobody's perfect, is nobody's perfect, is nobody's perfect, right? no relationship. It's redefining what perfect means, right? But back to settling. Settling is about you. It's when you think I'm not worth another day. I'm not worth saying this person doesn't align with my values. I'm not, I'm not worth being single because of X, Y, or Z. That's settling. Settling's about you. It's less about the other person. And so those are those feel clumped together, but those are two different questions.

Yeah. I think it's something that a lot of people grapple with, though. Oh, big time. Myself included, I mean, I definitely felt that way in that relationship too because I was like, am I just settling because it's comfortable, back to what we were saying before? Or is he just not perfect? And I remember somebody said to me, why don't you write down the most important things in a relationship? What are the most important things to you? And are you getting the top three? Are you experiencing the top three? with your partner. Gotcha. Instead of making a list and I need to have everything on this list.

But like, what's the most important to you? Well, I remember I went to college. When I went to college, I was a part of this group. And they said to write down the 10 things of your forever person, right? So I wrote them down. And I'm about a month out from 22 years of being married to the same person. And it's been super rocky and messy and all the stuff you would imagine for being together for a course entry.

but she has two of those 10 things right and so i was wrong on almost every count and one of them was like be a beautiful woman right that was one of them so like of all the things that i thought were important at that time in my life they haven't panned out what has panned out is two people saying every day i'm going to wake up and say how can i love you today and i'm going to take a knee and i'm going to be really hopeful that you take a knee and that's the way this thing's going to keep moving forward. If I try to use her as a hack to personal fulfillment, then I'm using her as cocaine. Like, I'm using her as a drug, right? I'm using her. And so instead of flipping it and saying, how can I serve? And that's the risk, right? I hope she has that same heart too. And their seasons were better at it

than others. And that there's seasons when I totally am the worst, man, I just crash. But I always want to get out of that conversation of, like, I don't feel great. That's a data point. but that's not that's not the the wise old sage i also been pretty emotional guy and so i have a couple of close friends that i'll run things by and i'm like am i crazy in the back yeah you're you're out to lunch on this one man she's way right and you're not and so it's being it's knowing that when i get fired up i go to fire or flight pretty quick and i get pretty anxious and i get pretty emotional and pretty dramatic and it's important to have people that speak into my life i outsource some of that just because i'm i can't always count on myself

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Our place offers a 100-day trial with free shipping and returns. Okay. Let's get into cheating because there are a lot of cheating questions. Let's get into cheating. What do you do if you're cheated on? Start there. sheesh gosh that's got so many variables to it right so if i've been married for 20 years plus right it's a different answer than if we've been dating for two weeks right and um context is important

yeah and i've over the last 20 years i've met people who consider it cheating if their partner gets a massage from a professional masseuse um or if someone has a personal trainer right or if somebody email. So the scope of what cheating means is that kissing somebody or sleeping somebody going to dinner? So I think it's navigating. It's just we're in a messy. Is it pornography? We're just in a messy world right now. And so I think answering that question like, what do you do if somebody cheated? I think you have to define together what that means for us right now. And then be honest about what kind of violation is it. Is it making me uncomfortable? Is it weird? Or no, you wadded up our values that we put on the table and you threw them away.

Somebody asked, are emotional affairs worse than physical affairs? Gosh, again, I think that is person to person. I've met with people who had a business conference. They've been married for 14 years, and there's one wild night. And they come back ready to work on it and figure it out and move forward. And then I've been with people who have sought with people who had a two-year coworker that they were super tight and never hooked up. But, man, they were way more connected than they were with their marriage partners. So again, it always goes back to there's a lot of context there.

When you hear that question, what do you instantly go to? About which is worse. Yeah. I agree with you. I think context is so important. I think for me personally, I probably wouldn't be able to overcome either of those if that happened to me. I mean, I have some relational trauma that involved a lot of that in my first relationship ever when I was like a teenager from like 14 to like my early to mid 20s. I mean, it spanned forever.

It was super toxic. So I feel like it wired my brain in a certain way. Yeah, a lot of GPS pins in there. Lots of GPS pins. And I think that that would just be like unrecoverable for me. Do you feel comfortable like in your new relationship putting that on a table right away? Yes. Like, hey, a way that you can walk away from this thing is to ever violate those.

Yeah. You know, I think we have similar feelings around that and similar goals and objectives in the relationship. But I've seen it in people's lives. Like, I've seen people really close to me who have been married for 30, 40 years. And then something happens. And they decide to continue that because you have all of that time invested with that person. And again, context is so important. And they've been able to come back from that stronger than ever.

So I think it's, I don't know, I think it really depends. I love the analogy. And I think, again, it's, I think it's as there's, when two people, build a relationship together. The analogy was the twin towers. They fell. You could never sweep up all that old dust and glass and metal and rebuild those towers. You have two choices. You can let them lie and let nature take them back over over time. Or you can hire a professional crew and come in and design and build something arguably more beautiful, stronger moving forward, but you're building something new. And so I think where I see a couple's struggle is the phrase I just want to get back to.

What we were. Yeah. And that's been an important metaphor for me if you have a kid, the marriage you had is over. It's gone. The choice you have is you're going to pine for the old days and wreck what you have or are you going to build something new? My wife and I have, we have a 14-year-old. He's going into high school next year. I've never been married and had a high school kid.

and high school for my wife was not great. I'm one of those guys. I peaked at like at 16. It's just been a downhill ever since. And so we've never been, both of us are going to have different alarms ringing about different things in high school. And so we're going to rebuild the new merits this year.

And now it's gotten to where I love that adventure and finding out who she is and what she's into and what she's not into and vice versa. And so it's always looking to build something new. But whether it's emotional or whether it's physical, what you had's over now and are we going to build something new together and if you're saying like no

I don't do new builds like I build one then I think it's putting that on the table early on this could be a total over generalization but men cheat to stay in relationships and women cheat to get out of relationships or something. Yeah there's

probably some what I call like Instagram wisdom to that. Yeah it was probably an Instagram infographic that I saw that It goes back to that quiet life of desperation. I think most men don't have a path for anything other than duty. And I will do this and I will do this and I will do this and I will do this. And they sacrifice themselves and they don't have a, there's no skill set.

There's no one teaching. There's no model or path for. Here's how you feel alive in your own home. You've become a safe place. Do you know how to become a desirable place, right? Do you know how to say what you want out loud? Do you know to say what you need out loud? do you know how to be uncomfortable?

Men aren't taught those things. And they're taught to shut up and go work and keep your mouth shut. And if you feel something, you need to shut that sucker down and move on. And so men collapse. And so it's a cheap, sideways way of trying to feel alive. And then that one person texts your back and your heart beats a little bit faster. Or she laughs at your jokes and your current partner doesn't laugh at your jokes. And it just slowly veers.

Right. But I think most, again, there's idiots everywhere, but I think most men are chasing a sense of aliveness and they don't have the skill set to create it in their own home. And they outsource it. I'm thinking of somebody who I know who. Right now. But it makes sense. I mean, I think a lot of shit comes into their head when they have kids and there's finances

and there's things that I think probably make somebody feel stuck even if they're maybe desiring to get out of that relationship or they're just not doing the work. work and watering the garden of that relationship and the grass is always greener on the other side. Well, it's Netflix. It's Xanax. It's just a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a distraction from reality. And what, it's a, it is the thought of entering into the reality. What's the state of my marriage? What kind of dad am I being? What kind of co-parent, co-creator, co-lover in this home? Am I really? That's a scary problem. position that some people refuse to try to lift.

And so they Netflix their lives away or they golf course their lives away. I'm talking about men, right? Or they cheat their lives away. Instead of confronting the scariest most, it's like the most courageous act, which is to look in the mirror and take ownership of who you are and who you're becoming. And just cowardice, man. They outsource that to somebody else. And they use other person, other people after other people after other people,

to bandaid over that that fear of confronting themselves. Yeah, but what you said about the duty, I think that makes a lot of sense too, where it's like must honor this duty that I have to keep the family together, but then I'm going to go do whatever I want to do. Yeah. But it's like there's a lot of cognitive dissonance, I think.

My wife is brilliant, and she was Dr. Deloney Way before me, so she gets all credit for this. But we had a famous showdown about 18, months ago. It wasn't long. I was writing my second book. The first one did really well, I written the second one. And speaking events were, so I started to travel a lot. And I have a, you know, a radio show to podcasts. I was getting busier and busier and busier. And I grew up. My dad was a policeman and my wife's parents were school teachers. And so we didn't have a lot.

And so now all of a sudden things are dramatically changing. And I couldn't turn it off. it finally ended in the garage. I was working out. I had just gotten off of COVID, and I was still exercising because you don't miss a day of working. It was just, and she came downstairs, and she's like, I'm watching my husband die, and he's cheering the whole way.

And she said something real profound. She says, in the pie chart of how much I love you, the pie piece, that's how much money you make, it's full. So go take whatever job you want to take, go speak all over across the country. Go do that. But do not say it's for me or for these kids, because it's not, it's for your ego.

And then she said something that was a, like, sent me straight to a counselor, which was a therapist, which was, John, we have enough. And then she walked away and went back upstairs. And I didn't have a psychology for enough. And it was that sense of, oh, I got in this lane, I got in this groove. She's only going to love me if I have this many abs and make this much money. And she was saying, I don't know where that story comes from, but it's not from me. And it's not from your kids.

It's a story that you've bought into in some weird. masculine alt universe it's not true um and she she'll tell me regularly you can keep going to gym like i'm at capacity you're not going to get more attractive for me right or you can go get some more money and you're not like it's not like i'm super good looking you know i mean but she's like it's you're capped right you're a solid six you're always i'm just kidding but um but like like the extra money is it going to make me love you more extra another best-selling book is it going to make me love i already what would make me love you deeper is you being a piece of you being a piece of in our own, the home we've made together. And that was the skill set I didn't have. I'd go learn how to do that.

I think a lot of us have that within our own selves too and our self-worth. And this is something that I'm exploring in therapy right now. It's like, what is my identity and what would my identity be without the stuff? And when is it enough? Because I'm in competition with myself. How much further can I get? How much more money? This, that, like the other thing. And I know rationally that those things don't make me happy. They're not fulfilling. And like, thank God for my sobriety. You know, I've really learned that like my spiritual life and my service life, like, those are the things that really fulfill me on that level that nothing else can really touch. And yet, I think when it comes to like how I view myself, I do hold those things pretty highly. And so I'm constantly doing

that with myself too. And I think a lot of people do. And it's like, when is it in When am I worth it? You know? I remember my therapist asking, like she just, I remember just, she's like an oracle. She's this extraordinary woman. And she's, she looked at me kind of like with her head tilted. And she said, when did the ticker tape that runs under the story of your life that you're a piece of crap, you're a piece of crap, when did that loop start? And she said, it's not true.

And it had never occurred to me, but like that's the recurring loop. I don't even know where those voices come from. And it's a whole bunch of different voices from all over the place. But it's at the end of the day, it's not true. And I get to choose what I'm going to continue to live into those voices or go change the ticker tape, right? And two, now you're pretty good dad. You're a pretty good husband.

All right. And I'm going to change that narrative. And I just have to practice it. And it's the worst. It's the worst kind of practice, right? Okay. Is it over if you're not sexually attracted to your spouse anymore? Ooh.

I'm rattling through a roll-decks of folks in my mind that are older, that are still attracted. I think sexual attraction changes what it means, right? When you're together in your 20s and you're together in your 70s. Yeah. It means something totally different. I think the way I would reframe that question is, if desire is gone, yeah. You have a very tough time being in a romantic relationship with somebody if you don't desire them.

Sexual attraction, again, right? That's a, it's contextual. and everybody experiences that differently. And it morphs as you are together longer and longer and longer, right? But I do think you are constantly cultivating and practicing desire. And I don't think we have a good system for how to do that. It's tough. How can somebody cultivate that?

Because obviously, like, attraction is going to wax and wane, I think. And in the beginning of a relationship, it's so crazy and passionate. And then things get more comfortable and maybe some of the hormones. die down a little bit and then you get into a different phase, you know, you get years into a relationship and it's like, what is it, familiarity breeds contempt and. Contembring's resentment. Yeah. And it's just like, oh, this person again. You're constantly, I think, having to inject mystery and desire and laughter and fun and warmth. And those are things we don't practice. We practice safety. Is this guy going to be on time?

Is she going to answer the text when I text her? Is he going to stand up for me, somebody's. We practice safety and we have that. But once you establish safety, it's really hard. You have to practice desire. And it's just easier to Google, you know, go to Porn Hub, right? Yeah. It's because there's mystery and there's excitement and there's allure and there's like, it's how do I connect that? And so it's always asking my wife and I take an annual retreat just to get away and be like, like, where are our financial goals? What about our life goals? What about? What kind of dad are you seeing me become? What kind of mom am I seeing you become?

And then we're pretty honest about like, what are you into these days? And like, what's a recurring dream that you've had? Or what's something that you saw me wear last year that you were like, don't ever wear that again, right? And now that there's, it's not, it's different walking out of the closet and her being like, oh, ridiculous. It's different to be like, hey, you started wearing like really small shirts. Don't do that, right?

It's those kind of things. But I think it's being honest about, hey, I'd love to try this. or have you ever considered or what do you think about? And those are terrifying, scary questions. I'm an old professor. My wife's an old professor. And recently, I had this thought like, I don't know what book she reads.

I don't know a podcast she's listening to these days. I don't know what poetry she, I don't know. And I asked her, I said, make me a syllabus like you would a student, but make me a syllabus of you. Like, what are, like, if I need to read 10 books and listen to 10 podcast and, like, so I get to know you. And she didn't for several weeks. And I circled back.

And I was like, I thought you're going to make that thing for me. And she said, it's the most nervous I've ever been. Because what if, what if she's like, I wish you'd asked me to like try something really weird. Because I would have much, that would have been easier than this. Yeah. Because she said, what if I give you these books? You read these books and you listen to these podcasts and you think about these, this new way I'm understanding God or this new way I'm understanding marriage.

And you don't like me. And I was like, oh, man, I'll always love you, right? I may think your book is dumb, but I'll always, I'm always going to love you. But it was an exercise in vulnerability. We'd be together for a quarter century, right? So it's always going back. That's where desire is, in that mystery. Wow, love that.

So I did get a lot of people asking, is there any truth or validity to playing hard to get and making somebody chase you? I think going back to desire is that intersection of comfort and mystery, right? And so probably there's some mystery or there's some, I'm trying to think of a word chastity. Like there's some, you don't know. But also, it's the, I don't have time for hard to get. I don't have time for games. And I think there's that whole game world, the gamification of the swipe right world is so unnatural. And it's so such a hack that is destroying modern relationships.

that I think if there was a collective, hey, let's just stop playing a game. Hi, my name's John, what's your name? And that's pie in the sky. And I know they sound like an old man like in my day. But yeah, I'm just not into the games anymore. I think they're causing more damage than they're helping. At the same time, having some mystery about you is good. Not oversharing or over vomiting on people or like the first date hookup.

Like, here's everything. Here's all of me. That's a lot, right? I want a slow drip. Yeah. Like, let's say hello. Slow reveal. And this has been beaten to death, and we all know these things.

But like, I remember my wife told me I was an old punk rock kid. And my wife grew up on some acreage out in West Texas. And she was obsessed with this guy named George Strait. I did not know much about him. Yeah, but he's a country artist, like the country artist, right? And so I got her tickets to his last concerts going through Houston. And he came in. It was the Astrodome was sold out.

There was tens of thousands of people. He comes in on a horse. The president was there. It was a whole Texas, Texas thing. But I'd been with her for years. She knew every word to every song. I didn't know that about her. I didn't know that about any of this.

She was crying. It was like this big moment. And I got to experience that with her. I didn't swipe right and go through a list of who are your favorite singers. Oh, it's this. Okay, cool. She likes this country guy. I got to experience that and see the side of her, right?

That's a much richer exchange then. Name the five bands you like. like, right? And then I had her come to a punk rock show with me in the bowels of a Houston punk club. And she was up against the wall and she was smiling ear to ear the whole time watching these knucklehead mosh pit kids run around. But she had to experience it. And I think we just have missed that. And we hack the first year of our relationship with dating apps. And that's where the good, rich stuff is. I was on dating app for about five days. And I was like, no more. But I mean, obviously there are people out there who meet their partners. Of course, yeah. I've got friends and family. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for your hospitality is awesome. It was so fun doing a little deep dive on those episodes. Tell everybody where they can find you and listen to your podcast and all of the things. After and only after you listen to the blonde files, you can come check out my show, the Dr. John Deloney show and I'm all over the socials and the internet. Yeah, we're having fun. Yeah, it's a call in show. So people call in with whatever they got going on in their life. And we help figure it out. And you're going to crush tonight. Thank you. Thank you. You'll be good. You're going to do good. I'll DM you, let you know how it went.

Excellent. It'll be, it'll be fantastic. It'll be good. I'll be thinking of the gym. It's like putting more weight on the machine at the gym tonight. There you go. More anxious you are. Yeah, this is right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that episode. And if you liked it, and if you liked the show in general, please take a second to rate review and subscribe. It goes all. long way, and it's actually the best way to support the show. Also, if you want to see more about each episode, you can head over to The Blond Files podcast on Instagram. You can go to areaallory.com, and I'm always posting about each episode over on my personal page at Ariel Lurie.

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