Well with Arielle Lorre - 365: The Shocking Truth About Food Labels, Natural Flavors, Dyes and Why Our Food System is Broken with Ashley Nickelsen

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

Ashley Nickelsen is an entrepreneur and founder of B.T.R Nation, a healthy snack company on a mission to help fix our broken food system. With a background in biochemistry, Ashley has a unique understanding of the science behind many of the ingredients found in our food. She joins the show to discuss the worst ingredients on the market today, what to look for on food labels, what exactly goes into natural flavors and dyes, why hospitals have such bad food, how food distribution works and why a perfect diet isn’t realistic.This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Listeners can get 25% off B.T.R. NATION with code: ARIELLE at btrnation.comProduced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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So foe tuto-s Sovovue Noororor Go to your reisadvise Orsonicccats been they. The following podcast is a dear media production. In a world of ever-changing wellness trends and information, what does it mean to truly be well? I'm Ariel Lorry and I'm going to explore this with you. I am bringing you candid conversations that will equip you with everything you need to live your best life

and look good doing it. Think of well as your go-to resource for all of the latest in wellness and me as your internet bestie. Well, let's get into it. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the show. So our country's food system is all over the news right now. There is a lot of confusion and I would say curiosity in regards to what actually goes into the food that we're eating. What exactly are things like natural flavors and dyes and questions like why do we have the worst food in hospitals? This is something that I've always wondered myself. So I am talking to Ashley Nicholson. She is the founder of BTRN. nation. She studied biochemistry, so she has that background, and she has been immersed in the food

industry for a while now, and she is on the show to break it all down. And I thought it was so fascinating to hear how distribution works and why that has such a role in the kind of food that is in hospitals and how it works at major grocery stores and things like that. And we also talk about what to look out for on food labels. We talk the worst ingredients in foods, and also why we have to have some balance when it comes to all of this. I really appreciate that despite her position, she understands and practices a really realistic approach where sometimes these things are just unavoidable and wellness doesn't have to be this completely unattainable thing. So I loved her insights. I loved her energy and her passion for her mission, which is to clean up the food and

the snacking industry. And I know that you guys are going to love this episode as well. Also, if you want to try BTR Nation, I love their bars so much. much. They have the best flavors. They have a high protein bar, which I actually ate before we started recording this episode. I never feel gross after eating them. They have super clean ingredients. They also have amazing chocolates. So if you want to check them out, she gave us a 25% discount. You can go to BTRNation.com slash discount Ariel, which you can also find in the description of the show. And you can find their bars at Amazon Thrive Market in Select Whole Foods in California. Arizona and Nevada. And with that, enjoy the show. Welcome, Ashley. Thank you so much for having me.

It is an honor. I'm so excited. I've listened to this podcast for years as the blonde files. So I love, love the new name. Like, love it. It's so simple. And I loved your explanation of it too around like it's not wellness. It's like being well, the state of being well. So I'm so excited that I get to be a guest as well. So this is cool. Love the pun. I love a good. pun. And yeah, and something that I really appreciate about you as well, we'll get very much into the backstory of your brand and your mission and all of that. But I feel like you also have a pretty moderate approach to wellness and to clean eating. And you understand like where certain things maybe are not possible or like where people can make exceptions and then where they can be a little

bit more diligent maybe when it comes to like what we're putting in our bodies. 100%. I have a lot. I have a lot to say about that. Yeah, we'll be getting into all of that. So if anybody's listening, feeling like, you know, wellness fatigue and they just want to hear like a fun, informative light conversation, they can stay tuned. Because I feel like I have to give that disclaimer now. I think wellness fatigue is real. I don't know if you've encountered that. And again, that's why I think that, you know, you're a good person to have on to talk about this, because it's not so rigid. It's not as rigid as I think people expect and as people make it out to be. So why don't we rewind a little bit before we get into all of that? And you can just introduce yourself to the audience and give us a little bit of your backstory because I know that informed what you do today. Everything. Yes. So I am the founder, CEO and Chief Snack Officer. It's my self-proclaimed title of BTR Nation. And we're in a mission to fix our broken food system because it is very broken. And what as consumer, is can we do to help and to change that and what can brands do? It really, really lays with the

brand. And this all started when both of my parents were diagnosed with very rare forms of cancer. My mom with a leomyosarcoma and my dad with appendiceal cancer. So these are like the rarest of the rare. And it was back to back. And my mom passed away very quickly. So she didn't see a lot of this journey. But my dad got sick like right after my mom passed away. There was a couple month gap in between. And at this time, I had already lost my mom. And now I was doing this second time around. I'm an only child. I was their primary caretaker. And we just spent, I mean, it was four plus years eating out of hospital vending machines and cafeterias. And there was this moment and it was very clear. And every time I see a vending machine today, it brings me back to that moment where I was

like, what is all of this? Like, why is all of this junk food here in a hospital? And I think I was thinking of the setting of, you know, this is, this is sick care. Like, why are you, you know, serving my parents like donuts and graham crackers and Coke? And I was like, what is going on here in a hospital? Like, it's just, it was wild. And I started, I didn't really dig enough when my mom was sick because my mom was so sick that it was literally like anything she could keep down. Like, that's what we needed to work with. But my dad was not really super symptomatic. So we were able to, like, I was making these recipes in my kitchen. And he was able to taste test them and he loved them. And, you know what? He was like, oh, maybe you'll have

like a little catering business. And he actually incorporated the business because he was like, this is so cool. Like it's very healthy, but it doesn't taste healthy. It doesn't taste like cardboard. Like this is something that I would enjoy. So he was always my biggest advocate. But every time we went for chemo and radiation, all of his doctors were like, eat what you want, Dave. Like it doesn't matter. Nutrition means nothing. Like it's, it was just wild to me because I'm like, I understand that at a certain point. it's just getting calories in and it's just about quality of life. I get that. But my dad's prognosis wasn't as bad as my mom. So I was like, okay, let's see how long we can live,

like really live and embrace life. And, you know, we know that, you know, instead of looking at it like this ticking time bomb kind of thing. And so I started making these recipes. And my dad was this, you know, massive advocate for me. And he was able to battle for about three years. And then he passed away. And it was that moment. I was actually working for a supplement company at the time. So I have background in CPG and I was the head of sales and marketing there. So I love startups. And I didn't even think about doing anything with these recipes. Like they literally, they were a Google Doc on my laptop. I think I always had like this idea of like maybe I can do something. Maybe it'll be a hobby. But I'm not like a hobby kind of girl. I'm like, okay, if I'm going to go in, I'm going to go all

in. I'm going to put my life savings in. And in the middle of the pandemic, I loved the supplement company I was working with, but I was starting to feel a little bit restless. I was like, okay, I've grown this to, you know, eight figures. I was like, this is really substantial. I feel like I've done a lot here. I kind of want to do this myself and bring this mission and brand to life, honor my parents, and see, you know, can we clean up the snacking space? Because there's a lot of great supplements out there, but food at the time in 2020 and still to this day is snacks are tough. They're really tough because it's very hard to hit taste, texture, ingredients, mass.

macros, price, all of that, and then being able to compete against big food on the shelf and have the dollars to do that. So I knew everything that I, I knew everything I needed to do. There was a plan. You know, you have to go take your recipes. You have to go to a co-manufacture. You have to make sure you can scale. You've got to have capital, right? So we went out to raise all of the things. And here we are today. But it is all to honor my parents. And BTR stands for be bold, tenacious, and resilient. And it's their mantra. So, and it's a play on the word better. We love puns and like multiple meanings. So it's like better nation, better food system.

So yeah. Love that. And yeah, I love the mission. And I feel like people really connect to brands especially that have that purpose and that mission and even that emotion behind it. I'm curious if when you were kind of in that phase when your parents were sick and you were eating the hospital food, did you ever do any research or get any answers as to why? That's how it is.

Because I've always wondered that too. And, you know, I've heard from people who were either sick or who also had sick loved ones in the hospital. And I feel like people kind of come away from it almost in disbelief because it seems so glaringly obvious that people who are not well should be getting more nutrition. And I understand what you were saying. Like sometimes it's just getting something in, getting some calories and whatever it is. But the fact that it's still that way is kind of. of shocking. Yeah. And I think a lot of it has to do with distribution and we're slowly making a crack into hospitals. So I'm really excited about that. We, B-Ther Nation is distributed in a lot of alternative channels. So that's actually how we started where a lot of people start in grocery. My background is e-commerce. So that's where we started like building this community. And then our first like massive account was actually in airports. So we're distributed nationwide in, you know, from LAX to LaGuardia. So that.

is really cool because airports are notoriously known to have terrible food, just like hospitals. And now it's getting better. And it's really exciting to see because a lot of people discover BTR at the airports. And since then, we've even had like buyers be like, oh, I saw you at the airport. You've got great distribution. And I'm like, now we're starting this opportunity to get into grocery stores, which is amazing. And we've got so many fun updates coming in the next couple months. But hospitals are a tough one. They're so tough. So they work with very particular distributors. And a lot of those distributors just pick up really big food. And it's, you know, you might have seeded the news. Everyone is talking about the CETA PepsiCo acquisition.

No, I didn't know that. Oh, CETA? Yes. No way. Yes. This just happened two days ago. So PepsiCo acquired CETA for $1.2 billion. And it's, but I am so proud of them, so happy for them. There's just so many opinions out there. And I think being the founder of a brand and knowing how much capital you have to raise to be able to. compete. Having that type of acquisition, now I'm just so excited because Siette is now in the PepsiCo network where as long as they don't change the ingredients or alter anything, which there are a lot of new and emerging brands like Primal Kitchen and Stacey's Pita chips and like all of them, they've retained the essence of the brand, which is great because Big Food knows that like consumers are looking for these better for you options. So as long as everything stays the same, like now this distribution has expanded drastically. So now every, where Frito-Lay is, Ciette can be. And that is just, like, I'm going to tear up because that's a

beautiful thing. And I think sometimes consumers are like, oh, my goodness, like, it's going to completely change the product. And of course, if that hat, like, then we have to put, like, our consumer hat on, like, that is a problem, right? Like, that is why better for you brands exist, because we don't want that to be to happen. But there are opportunities to be able to get into deeper distribution as long as the product remains the same. But that's how you do it. Like, that's how you get into hospitals and I think they were in like, I don't need tens of thousands of points of distribution, but now they can be in hundreds of thousands of points of distribution and at possibly a more accessible price point. And now consumers, like wellness is more attainable

because I've been seeing a lot of influencers share like everyone wants to support small business, but small business is expensive. So an example is like our net butter cups. We are trying to reduce the cost daily, but the cocoa market is insane. So it is just absolutely insane. Like I was quoted yesterday, $3,150 per kilo for cocoa butter. Just for cocoa butter. That's not even the liquor. And we handcraft our chocolate.

So if you want better for you, there's a price attached to it. So we're trying so hard. Our bars, we finally have been able to scale. And now we're making millions and millions of bars. So if you make more product and you get it into more doors, the cost automatically comes down. But it is so hard to do that. And that is why these types of. of things happen. So for us, getting into hospitals is really, really important, but it's because

hospitals are so connected and in bed with these big distributors and these big food companies, and they're the ones they first go to for the products on the shelf. But we aren't about 50 hospitals. There are some that are like, you know, we are willing to throw even like, honestly, it could be like 10 cents an item. Like it's like, oh, we'll throw 10 cents more an item. And that's sometimes like what these hospitals, they want to pocket that 10 cents. So it's pretty crazy and how they will, you know, sacrifice the health of their patients or they'll sacrifice the health of the caretakers, right? So the patients, I hear this all the time. Like patients aren't eating hospital food like all the time. Like they pretty much are. But patients don't really eat

out of vending machines, but caretakers do. And you have to be on your game. You're the advocate. You're the proxy. You're making decisions that are like literally life or death. and I'm going to, you know, sit and eat a, you know, a Quest bar and that's, that's all I got for the day. So that was like the driving force to start this company. And now that I'm like in the weeds and seeing how much it takes to really scale, it's, I mean, it's very exciting. It's a wild ride, though. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. There's just so much behind it that I think just the layman doesn't even think about. I didn't know this. But I was, you know, before starting this company, I really didn't know. And the startup I was at before was mainly, we were, we were, supplements. We were all e-commerce. We were Amazon focused. It retail and grocery stores and getting to the shelf is such a wild journey. And there's so many middlemen and lots of distributors. And we literally

have like probably over 20 trucks right now with BTR all over the country, just trying to deliver to different distribution centers. And it's like every day we get an update. And it's like, okay, this carrier didn't make it. This carrier is not there for pickup. And all of those things impacts the whole business. It's pretty crazy. So many logistics. So much. So much. Ops and logistics has to be so dialed in. Yeah. But anyway, I won't talk too much about that. It just the amount of emails I got walking in where it was like, fire, fire, fire. Put this fire out, Ashley. I'm like, okay, well, you know what? We're just going to take a second. We're going to talk about how to stay well and not the fires. Yeah. Well, I think it's important for people to hear too, because as the consumer, we're just getting the

final product and we don't know everything that goes into it. And, you know, I think that, I guess, it kind of drives that connection that you have with the consumer when they do know the story behind it. And we do know some of the struggles and all of that. At least I as a consumer, I appreciate that. I think consumers are looking for that. They're looking for the behind the scenes more and more there. Yeah. You know, we're not a faceless brand. It's very much my face. And it's and now I'm trying to get consumers because we have a lot of consumers that tell me their stories every day that or like, oh, you know, my mom is sick, my aunt is sick. And, you know, I was in the hospital. We get literally daily people that take pictures of vending machines or they're like getting their blood

drawn and they're like, look at this like little micro market. And it's like I thought of BTR, which is really cool because people are getting the fact that we're trying to fix our broken food system, but we're also not naive to the fact that it is very difficult. Like what you were saying in the beginning wellness is, I don't want to say not always attainable, but they're just so many things coming at you. And I was just talking to my husband about this last night is, you know, he was like, I was in the park the other day and I heard someone talking about the fact that they are not, like, they're not eating nuts anymore. And, you know, she was like, I can't eat nuts anymore because someone told us that, you know, nuts are too hard for us to digest

and I'm not going to eat them anymore. And now all we're going to eat is fruit or something like that. And it's like, okay. And it's, you have to do what's best for your body. And you know, Like, we instinctively know what feels good in our guts. And I think that that's really what it comes down to. And I think there's some very basic principles that, you know, I don't want to say sugar is evil. It is not by any means. But it is in moderation. That is there is a reason why 25 grams of added sugar is the daily intake limit.

And that is probably still a little high. But as consumers, Americans typically consume three times that in this country. So, like, that's why low sugar is so important to me. I also have a family history of diabetes and cancer. So for me, having something that's a lower sugar diet is not no sugar, but a lower sugar is what I look for and why we made these products. But even more than that is just the quality of the ingredients. I think, you know, I was so fixated when I, you know, used to run marathons. I was so focused on the macros.

I didn't even really realize what I was eating and I was bloated all the time and my skin was horrible and my hair was like falling. out and I was like, but I'm eating, you know, the perfect amount of calories and the perfect amount of protein. And honestly, it's, you know, the quality of the ingredients, but that is so hard. Like, I think I actually heard this on this podcast. Like, you might have said this a couple episodes back. Like, people just want to be told what to do. Yes, I did say that. And what to eat. And it's so true. It is so true. So for us, like, my school of thought is, you know, we're not super strict in our house, but like, we won't, we don't eat food dies. No way. Like, even if my daughter is in the park and someone is like, here's some fruit loops.

I'm like. Slow motion going to swat it out of her hand. No, I'm trying. I'm also like very mindful, right? Like I had disordered eating for many years. Like I'm trying to be super mindful. So I'm like, let's explore this. And then I'll try to educate her. And I mean, she's two. So she's like, whatever. And actually, she's a pretty picky eater and like very mindful of what she consumes probably because we are. So whatever we eat, she eats. So she doesn't really eat a lot from strangers. So I'm like, thank goodness. So I'm trying not to like completely swat it out of her hands. but I'm like, okay, we don't really eat food dyes. And like, we live in California. So most people are like, oh, yeah, I get that. So if it might be in another part of the country, people would be like,

what, what? But that was, you know, it's a fine line. So how do we do this? Is so, you know, we try to avoid food dyes. We try to avoid anything that, like, you can't pronounce on a nutrition fact panel in an ingredient list. We try to keep our sugar lower and, you know, try to optimize protein. But really what it comes down to is relieving stress, trying to. to like stay as calm as possible, trying to like mindfully eat, trying to breathe while you're eating, like all of these things because I open Instagram and I literally am just bombarded with things from you need this air filter, you need this water filter, you can't eat nuts anymore, you can't eat this.

And I'm just like, it's overwhelming. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, there's a large spectrum and I think it's very challenging if people are consuming like fast food, five to six days a week. And that is actually how I grew up is I grew up in a very fast food house. My dad worked three jobs. That was not good. And I definitely could feel the impact on my health. I was an overweight kid. I could feel the impact on my health as someone who was young. And my parents like didn't know at the time. I was a 90s baby. I feel like everyone kind of knew like how smoking is not good for you. People kind of knew like fast food's probably not good for you. But now it's people know. People know. People know. People get it, but then there's like the extreme where like now you're cutting everything out and it's like that's not good either because you have to do what works best for your body. So I think that's what it comes down to. But like I mentioned, my principles like lower sugar, good amount of protein, balance in the diet, making sure fruits, vegetables, basic things, movement, trying to deep breathe

and try to keep it as simple as possible and then leave it to the brands to do what they should be doing in the world. And that's why BTNation exists. Is, you know, My biggest pet peeve is we don't use any natural flavors. It is in 99% of our food industry because it is, it's a crotch, it makes the food cheaper, it makes the food last longer, it completely manipulates and hijacks our palate. And I'm not saying that they're bad. I don't love to use good or bad, but I'm not saying that they're bad. We just don't know what's in them. Like fragrance in a perfume bottle. I'm sure you've heard it a hundred times. Like it is just wild how that doesn't have to be disclosed. And even as a manufacturer, I've tried calling flavor

houses. And I'm like, so what is in this flavor? Like, you know, I have a biochemistry degree. Like, you can tell me, I just need to know. We would never use natural flavors, but I just need to know. And they're like, it's proprietary. We can't tell you. And I'm like, mm, this just doesn't sit well with me. Like, I just want to know. If I'm eating 30 grams of sugar, that's my choice. Like, I'm fine with it. I'm going to eat the cookie. That's cool. But like, I want to know what I'm consuming and this whole thing with food dyes now being renamed to like sexier like nicer names. So like blue one I think is becoming like brilliant blue. So if a parent who is not getting served all of these like Instagram, you know, ads and reels and

TikToks about like how food dye is coloring like the naming structure is being changed, you're going to see brilliant blue. I mean, maybe you're like, what's brilliant blue? You like you might have that gut instinct, but it makes you feel better about your choice. because you're like, oh, well, this sounds natural, which is exactly why natural flavors have the word natural in front of it. And to me, that is like the most deceiving ingredient on an ingredient panel because everything else is disclosed. So I can't tell people, though, like, stay away from natural flavors, run from them. They're literally in everything. I consume things

with natural flavors daily. I try not to. But when, you know, if there's something in there, I don't realize it's a natural flavor. I'm like, okay. And then, you know, I, there's a lot of drinks on the market. They all have natural flavors. I'm like, oh, I'm thirsty. I'm, you know, I love my water, but I want something just a little different. I'm like, okay, it's a natural flavor. So very, very hard to outrun those. I do think consumers are getting savvier and sabbier though. So we're really happy to be at the forefront there. Yeah, I mean, I think when it comes to this, something that you were saying before is like there is a spectrum. And I think that a lot of times you have to meet people where they are. And I think of like my dad, who's a cardiologist,

and he's been a cardiologist for as long as I've been alive. So I'm thinking of a friend of mine, Dr. Danielle Ballardo. She's more like integrative. She focuses a ton on nutrition, but he's a little more old school. And I used to when I was first in the wellness space and I was like listening to everything Dr. Mark Hyman said. I'm like, dad, you need to like talk about nutrition with your patients. And I remember him saying to me, my patients are eating fast food three times a day. And so my conversation with them is getting that down to two times a day. Like that's like meeting them where they are. It's not going to be like completely overhauling everything to like organic whole foods, you know, and also it's like a demographic thing and accessibility and all of that. And I like what you said about kind of the onus falling on the brands to do a lot of that heavy lifting for the consumer and that education piece as well, I think is so important. So I don't want to go to the fearmongry place, but you were just, but I do think that we should have a conversation because you just mentioned a lot of these things to. kind of look out for. Yeah. So I definitely want to hear a little more about like the natural flavors

and the dyes and why is it so important to be cognizant of our consumption of these. I will not say not have them ever. Again, something that I appreciate is like your kind of moderation. Like sometimes that's like the only option or sometimes like I am making that choice. Yes. But where do those typically originate from as far as we know? Because like you said, a lot of them just say, oh, proprietary. Like we don't really know. But normally, where is that sourced from or what even is that? Yeah. Oh my goodness. Do we have two hours? Yeah, I'm checking the time. I'll go on my rant. So I think also, and one thing I've been really trying to be mindful of, especially as a mom and a CEO, is like giving ourselves grace and like disassociating the choice with like, this is bad. Like we don't, we never use the language of like,

this is a guilt-free treat for B-Tarnation because I don't like associating anything. And I don't like associating with guilt. I personally don't consume anything with food dyes. I don't want my child consuming them. Am I going to like go yell at a mother that gives my daughter something that, you know, has red 40 in it? No. Like this is like maybe I'll have a conversation. Maybe I won't. I don't even know. We haven't crossed that bridge yet. But it's like disassociating the choice from like, oh my God, I must be a bad person because I'm consuming this. Like I think once we remove that from and just like be super objective how we look at these ingredients and what they could possibly. in, and I listen to, of course, I listened to the episode with Dr. Hyman when he was on,

oh my goodness, amazing episode. He's wonderful. Thank you. It's really about the toxic load over time and it's not like, oh, I consumed red 40 once. Like, this is going to be chrysanogenic in my body. Like, I think it's, it's thinking about that toxic load and then trying to be mindful of the choices that we're making, but not attaching them to like good or bad or making us feel like a bad mom or making us feel like, you know, it's the same thing in like the crunchier. I'm putting that in air quotes, but the crunchier space where it's like if you do want to make, like I love, you know, these influencers who make amazing like homemade goldfish for their kids. And I'm like, oh, let me like see this recipe. Like I think I'll do this for my daughter.

And some days I might do that. Most days I'm probably going to choose simple mills, right? Like it's, it's convenience. But then finding a brand that you trust and that you support. Am I going to feed her a goldfish? No, I'm personally not. So here's why. So I grew up on goldfish. Is this not, did I overload myself with this? It's the amount of pop tarts that I've consumed in my life. It was a different time too. It was a totally different time. It was the best of time, honestly.

And there honestly wasn't, it's pretty social media, right? So nothing spread like wildfire. It was more like, you know, if you were on the playground and someone had like, I guess, nature's pantry like made, I think maybe like a gluten-free pop tart at the time. And it was like, ooh, what's this like crunchy thing? But otherwise, it was like everyone ate pop tarts. Everyone ate egos. Like everyone had, you know, it was like, are you a Skippy or GIF family? Right? Like that is what we grew up with. And now there's just so much. It's pretty wild. But I think that, you know, we, we know more now. And

information spreads just so quickly, probably too quickly. And that is, that is why. But for me, my biggest pet peeve besides the natural flavors is the transparency. So if you tell me what's in the natural flavor. And I can do my own research. I can take a look and see like, okay, what is this? How does it interact in the body? And, you know, having a biochemistry degree, I'm like, I can make good choices that way. But it's because we can't find that information out. I think that that's my thing is like I feel like someone's hiding something. And it's, that's where it gets super sketchy for me. So same thing when I see fragrance. I'm like, oh, no. And that is like nearly impossible. I mean, now there's a lot of clean beauty brands, but even some of the cleaner beauty brands have

fragrance and I'm like, what do we do? What are you not going to shower? Like, it's, you got to put it all into perspective. But for me, natural flavors and artificial flavors. So two buckets. Natural flavors technically are derived from something that is natural, but then there's about 50 to 100 other sub-ingredients that are put into the natural flavor to their lab created, so they're made in a lab. And basically, they're taking this, like, I was reading an article about if you see something like natural strawberry type flavor, what that means is there's actually no strawberry in that whatsoever. So they might actually be taking like one ingredient from or one enzyme from an apple and or like a pear or something that might give like a strawberry taste,

but there's no strawberry. And then there's also these other solvents. There's a ton of seed oils. So I did. Sometimes I get like the behind the scenes from these labor houses and I'll see like this whole jug of like natural like orange flavor. And I saw this at one of our co-manufacturers and the first ingredient was rape seed oil. And. And, It's like, cool. There's still a lot. There's also a lot of opinions on seed oils. We do not use seed oils. Like, for me, I just wanted to go the extra mile all the way because this is a product that I want everyone to feel comfortable consuming, provided you have like no allergies. Right. That's the other thing is we are not, you can't be everything to everyone. I think that's really important if any entrepreneurs are listening. Like you have to find what is your mission, your wire pillars. But there are some allergen friendly brands. Like we knew the basis for our brand. was low sugar, simple ingredients. And it also has to taste good. So you need to give that element of nostalgia. What gives nostalgia? Nuts, right? So there's only three ways to make a bar. It's nuts. It's dates. It's fake stuff. Right. There's literally like those are the three bases. And that's

why there's weigh bars with way and calcium caseinate and titanium dioxide. There's date bars. I like some date bars. And then a lot have sugar. And there's a lot of added sugar in some date bars and then now we're getting to like 35 grams of sugar and I'm like, okay, well, now, you know, I have to still keep true to that low sugar promise. So that is a long story short, my pet peeve with natural flavor is, I think even more than artificial because artificial, like, it says it. People know the word artificial. They're like, maybe I should avoid this or I know what I'm eating is probably like made in a lab somewhere. But natural makes it sound like you're taking a fruit and you're like squeezing it into the product. Like that is not how it's happening.

So it's super, super highly processed and consumers don't know that. So that's my big pet peeve is like just call it what it is. Even if you called it like a flavoring agent or something like that, I think that would be more open on a nutrition fact panel than natural flavors. So and then food dyes do have a lot of research linked to specifically ADHD, hyperactivity and children. And it's just so ironic because as an adult, I don't think anyone as an adult is like, oh my goodness, I need my food like purple or I need like, remember, the Heinz purple ketchup and you know that was definitely like this is targeted towards children specifically so it's like wild that there's research around this and California actually is the first state to remove I believe it's six food dyes and that just passed last week so really

exciting stuff like things are changing and it's not just like this crunchy population it's everyone wants to eat better feel better live longer I think that's pretty much the consensus but it also has to be affordable it has to taste good it's food it has to be able to to bridge to the masses. And that's how I see BTR. We did a rotation in Costco and we did our rotation in Costco in the southeast in the summertime. So I'm like, oh my goodness, first of all, I basically lived in the southeast and it was like 105 degrees and like 110% humidity. It was crazy. But we met thousands of people that were like, oh my goodness, this has no seed oils. And I was like, I just thought that was maybe like an Instagram thing or California thing,

maybe like bi-coastal. But no, like people everywhere were asking like, my God, there's no sugar alcohols. There's no flavors. I was, I was really shocked that people everywhere are looking for this. It's just, if it's not accessible to them, how are they supposed to get it? So that's why we're trying so hard to expand distribution. Why brands like Ciate try to expand their distribution so they can meet people where they're at and then be able to give things at a lower cost that makes everyone's purse a little bit happier? Yeah, and I would imagine that it's hard to compete as a smaller brand who has this mission with big food. Tell us the behind the scenes, really, you gave us a little

bit of a little peak. But I mean, is it what you kind of imagine at some of these bigger brands where it's like labs with scientists, like coming up with the most like addictive, most flavorful profile for whatever food it is that they're making? And like, how do you compete with that? It's such a good question. That is what I envision. I actually, I don't come from big food. So I'm probably one of my only friends that I come from the startup life. So like I love startups. I love building. I love putting a mission out there that is so like set in our core values. And not saying that big food doesn't have that, but like being able to be like innovative and nimble and like fast moving. Like I kind of like thrive in the chaos of, you know, I came in here like a whirlwind. I'm like,

oh my God, we have 20 trucks and they're all over the country and I have to try. Like I love that though. As crazy as it seems. Like it is, it's like the sign of. growth and we can innovate so much faster and be super nimble. So when we try new flavors, like I will literally like test them out in my home kitchen and be like buying ingredients from the grocery store and just like start experimenting. And then I like to look at trends. I like to get feedback from our customers. I wish I knew a little bit more of the inner workings of big food, but from what I can hear from my colleagues that have that big food corporate experience, that's exactly how it is. And how, you know, I've seen an

heard rumblings. Once again, a lot of this is on Instagram, TikTok, you know, some of these things you take with a grain of salt. But I do know the flavor world. And I meet a lot of industry folks at trade shows that are like, you're never going to make it without a flavor. You got to get people addicted. And I'm like, who, I wish you had said that and like actually like recorded that. So and went on the record for that. But that is how why a lot of people use these flavor agents are to get people addicted. And that is not our focus. We, CBTR Nation is like multiple snacking occasions throughout the day. So when you want to eat a bar, most people eat a bar a day or a bar every other day, we know that's going to happen regardless.

Then maybe a chocolate is your dessert. We have a couple of other verticals that we're working on. So we want to, we don't want people to like eat eight bars, right? Like that's not your nutrition, right? That's not your, you know, get more real food. It used to be mine when I was counting macros too and I would have like three quest bars a day. Me too. You can imagine the state of my digestive health at that time. Oh my goodness. I remember those days. I was training for a marathon. I was a personal trainer. And I thought I was just, and I was my fittest, right? I was, I think I was like 12% body fat. And I was eating three quest bars on the floor. It was either the chocolate fudge and the blueberry muffin. And I just, and I remember going to like our lead trainer. His name was Marvin. So shout out to Marvin. He was like,

what are you eating? Why are you so bloated? Like I was just bloated. I looked three months pregnant. And I was like, well, I got it. You know, I'm eating bar. is because I got a cut because I'm, you know, I'm running and I want to be faster and I want at PR and all of these things. And he was like, girl, you got to like eat real food. And I was like, okay, so then I started, you know, my grilled chicken, my sweet potato, my broccoli every single day. Like it's, and I get it, right? It's a season. It's a season. But like that is not how we can live for like 30 years. Like things change. So for us, like we are always innovating, right? We have our line of superfood nut butter bars. They're like seven to 10 grams of protein. Then we've got our line of higher protein bars. So if something like you need to hit a certain amount of protein because

maybe you are training, maybe you're, you know, we have a lot of like truck drivers and mailmen that are like needing to get sustenance in and they're like, I want a higher protein bar because this is going to be my meal and then I'll go home and have dinner. And they love the 15 grand protein bar. Do we need? There's lots of, lots of new bars on the market that are coming like between 20 and 30 grams of protein. Do we need 20 and 30 grams of protein in a bar? If the bar is simple ingredient. It tastes good. Like, amazing. I just, it is very difficult to hit that and to make that happen. And usually that's the case. You see bars that have like 25 grams of protein and it's like literally there's maybe one real ingredient and it's like cocoa powder. And it's and not even like

real real. Like we use chocolate. Like we're not like cocoa powder processed with alkali. Like that's the only ingredient in the bar that actually is like realer. So I think, you know, focusing on minimally processed, we'll just. just make our bodies feel a whole lot better. But sometimes, you know, it's what's available to you. So, and I love, I love your dad's philosophy of, like, if you're eating fast food three times a day, even just removing one of those meals five days a week can have a completely different outcome. Like, would you go up to that person and be like, okay, well, now I'm going to go grocery shopping for you and we're going to do a kale smoothie in the morning and we're going to be, like,

it's just not, it's not going to be sustainable, but maybe in like two years, you can get there. So, like, for us, we hope BTR is like this good stepping stone for people where it's like, It tastes good. It's got the macros. It's a good price point. And you're getting like the simplest, cleanest ingredients that you possibly can get, like as close to nature as possible without you having to like make all of it yourself. Yeah. And I just had the protein one by the way, everybody. It was so good. Crunchy and delicious. It's sold out. Hopefully by the time this air is it will be back. It's sold out in two and a half months. We had we literally accounted for five months worth of inventory. That's how much people are excited about higher protein and simple ingredients. Yeah, but I mean, I think also,

like, you were just making the point about meeting people where they are and what my dad said. I also think that, you know, something that you said in the beginning is like snacking is so difficult for people. And I know that I have a lot of listeners and I've run into this myself too where it's like, okay, I know what to do like breakfast, lunch and dinner. I'm like locked in at those times. But then when you're on the go, you're working, you're busy throughout the day. Like the wheels fall off. And there are no great options when it comes to bars. And I think that, you know, again, like instead of overhauling anything, if you can just change that one thing, that begets more change.

Right? Like changing one habit. So many people try to overhaul everything, especially when it comes to wellness. And instead of getting rid of everything and starting fresh, like it's just about those little micro-examines. habits and those little changes that you can make that end up having the biggest impact. 100% because it has to be sustainable. Like that was always like when I was going through this disordered eating and it was never anything like super severe but I was definitely like I weighed my food.

And I think it was like a it was definitely more when my parents were sick. It was a really, it was a control mechanism. I was like this is the only thing I can control and like I loved it. I was like became like a little addicted to it because I was like, okay. Like not for the sake of like even body physique because when I stopped weighing my food, I immediately put like 10 pounds back on. But that's where I, that's where I stopped. And then I could like eat. I don't want to say anything I want.

But like then I can just be was able to sustain that. But like my body didn't actually want me to be 10 pounds lighter. Like that's where that was a happy place. Like immediately. Like as soon as I stopped weighing my food and things like got out of like this weird homeostasis I developed for myself. So but that's the other thing is like you want to control everything. So that is part of the reason like BTR Nation exists as a snacking company. We have people that are like, oh, can you make coffee or can you make greens powder?

Or like, have you thought of like making like more like meals or something? And I'm like, oh no. Like we are on the go at our core because we want you to feel like this is homemade. And literally like it is basically like homemade. It is there's so much that goes into these products to make. Like our chocolate literally has like seven steps that are man. It's pretty crazy. But we want you to feel like it's homemade.

and that we can take care of your on-the-go snacks for you, but this isn't a meal. We're trying, this is not a meal replacement. The higher protein bar is like more of a substantial snack. So it might fill you more for like four plus hours. But you should be eating your breakfast, lunch dinner. We are a snack company. So we've got snacks covered. You take care of the rest.

Okay. So I'm curious just to close out here. What are your wellness non-negotiables? Because you're obviously very into wellness, but you're also a busy mom. You're scaling a business. So when it comes to your own life and having been through what you're, you've been through with like the restrictive eating. It sounds like we've had very similar journeys when it comes to that because I did the same thing with the weighing and the macros and everything.

And it's absolutely that sense of control, I think. But where are you now with your wellness? Like what are your absolute non-negotiables in your day? Yeah. So there's actually very few because I usually get this question on podcasts of like how do you take care of self like self-care. And I am, I don't want to say I'm not like a good role model for self-care. But we're We're like really scaling our business right now. And I have a two-year-old toddler who is like on me during meetings and I'm pitching investors and their self-care is I have to keep it like super simple. So a couple of things that are non-negotiables. One is a walk. I have to get outside for like even 10 to 15 minutes a day. It used to be where I was, my husband always reminds me of this. He's like, you used to work out at six in the morning. And then sometimes if you felt really good, you'd go back to the gym at like five o'clock at night. And I'm like, well, that life is over. And it's once again, it's not sustainable. It's a season and, you know, what you're running marathons and, like, that's, like, the exciting thing. That's why I did that. Like, I don't regret it. It's just that was during that time. So now it's like, what is sustainable for the rest of my life is, like, walking, trying to

like, you know, incorporate some exercise. Maybe it's like two to three times a week and I'm doing like a fun Pilates class or I'm doing something. I love Pure Bar, things like that. But the non-negotiable is walking every single day. The other non-negotiable is getting enough protein and fiber. So I have IBSC. So the constipation kind, so fiber is very important for me. So making sure that never keeping track of it, I'm never writing it down. But I know that if I'm consuming enough, vegetables, fruits, I have a bar, all of those things are helping contribute to like my digestive tract being nice and happy. So that's another non-negotiable from a nutritional perspective.

And then it's really just been trying to like get a better like skincare habit. I've been asking everyone. So if you've got some tips on just like a very. simple skincare routine because I either like go all the way. I think, you know, I have this personality where I'm like going all in. And it's very good when you're an entrepreneur because you're so busy. You have to be all in. But with my skincare, I'm like, I don't want 30 products. Like it was there was a time where it was like 30 products. And then there's a time where it's like, I'm just going to splash water on my face. Like now I'm looking for like the four to five products.

What do I need? What can I do? So that's one thing I'm trying to incorporate. And one fun thing I've been trying to do is read books for fun. So that's been something that, and I don't do it at home, and I don't do it at work, of course, because I'm literally working like 100-hour weeks. But when I fly, I always make sure I have a book that's for fun that I can read or that, you know, sometimes it's like an entrepreneur book. But I've been trying to lean away from like the nonfiction do something. That's fun. Fiction gets me into like a completely like different mind space and it gets me more creative. So because right now, like when you're in the scaling phase like this and anyone that's so in the weeds with their lives, like you want to just like have a creative outlet, but you don't

even have the space and the time to make for it. And then like creativity sounds exhausting. So trying to just like incorporate more in nature and walking and reading. So that's kind of what I've been trying to do and keep it simple. Love that balance. What are you reading right now? Anything good? So I actually, I just finished the little words projects. I have my little words project bracelets. I know the founder Adriana. And I love the company and what they've built. And I actually just published a book about like words and their meaning and kindness and stuff. So I just finished that.

And then, oh, my goodness, I've read a, most of them have been like these rom-com books. Yeah, we love rom-com books. I know. I know. Anything good. Oh, my, now I can't remember the name. And I literally, I buy them all in the airport because I'm like, there's no excuse. I'm going to read it.

This is like a four-hour flight. This will be great. I'll get through the whole book. Oh, my goodness. Now I can't even remember. You know what? You can email me and then we can post it. Yes, yes, because we'll put it in the notes. And then if anyone is really interested in like entrepreneurial books, like I love, I love Ali Webb's book, The Messy Truth, read that a couple months ago and keep coming back to it. So it's like books like that that where people like open up and they like share the journey of building and not just like here we are and now we've sold and like all of this stuff. There's so much messiness in between. And that's like the 99.9% the mundane. So I love. reading about that. So that was a good one. Yeah, we love her and she was on the show last year. So

everyone go back and listen to that episode. Yeah, I love her too. Got to self-promote too. So tell everybody where they can find you and find BTR. Yes. So we are at BTRNh.com. We're on Amazon. We're on Thrive Market. By the time this episode air is, we will be in Whole Foods. So I'm so excited to be able to share that. So select Whole Foods. Check our store locator. We're in Air One. I mean, we're in 600 points of distribution. And by next year, we'll be in over 1,500, possibly more, it's pretty crazy. So the next nine months are so intense and I'm so excited for it. That's exciting. Thank you so much for letting me tell my story and honor my parents here and talk all things, wellness. Yes. Thank you so much for coming on. Of course.

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