Well with Arielle Lorre - 395: No, You Really Don’t Need a Budget! And How to Make Your Money Work For You with Jesse Mecham

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Jesse Mecham is a personal finance expert, speaker, business leader, and the Founder of You Need A Budget (YNAB for short). A self-proclaimed “recovering CPA,” he is deeply passionate about teaching individuals, families, and business owners his method to taking control of their money and making it work for them. Jesse hosts The Jesse Mecham Show, and is the Wall Street Journal best-selling author of book You Need A Budget. He is on the show to discuss the biggest mistakes we make when it comes to money, how to use scarcity to our benefit, reframing saving, how to get out of debt, why naming your money is important and how to differentiate between present and future you. This is a fun empowering episode that will help you cultivate a better relationship with money.This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Visit www.ynab.com/well to claim an exclusive three-month free trial, with no credit card required.Produced by Dear Media.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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or sunnycars. The following podcast is a dear media production. In a world of ever-changing, wellness trends and information, what does it mean to truly be well? I'm Ariel Lorry and I'm going to explore this with you. I am bringing you candid conversations that will equip you with everything you need to live your best life and look good doing it. Think of well as your go-to resource for all of the latest in wellness and me as your internet bestie. Well, let's get into it. Hi everybody. Welcome to the show. It has been a hot minute since I have done in a

episode on finance, which I think is a massive oversight on my part because I truly, truly believe that financial wellness is a huge component of overall wellness. I believe it was when I had Sally Crawcheck on maybe two years ago when we talked about this concept that you cannot have true wellness if you are constantly living with the stress and the strain of financial insecurity or financial stress. So I'm really excited to have Jesse Meekum on today. He is the founder of Wynab. It is something that I know a lot of you are familiar with. It completely changed the way that I look at and utilize my finances. It's an award-winning app. It's changed the way people think about their money. So the Wynab method of giving every dollar a job has helped millions of people

align their money with what matters most. And they call this spendfulness. So we had so much fun in this episode talking about finances. Jesse was a broke college student and newlywed, a soon-to-be dad living on a tiny income. And even the smallest splurge, like an occasional donut, felt really consequential to him. He talks about this in our conversation. So he needed a way to make his money work for him. And he created a spreadsheet with one powerful idea, which was to give every a job. So it was more than a budget. It was basically a blueprint for spending and for saving and building the life he wanted. And it's a complete reframe. So something that we talk about that really resonated with me was this idea of reframing savings and not having shame and not having guilt around spending savings.

We also talked about risk and investment and paying off debt and how scarcity can actually work in our favor. We talk about how using this approach. to finances and to spending helps you realize what your priorities are. We talk how to enjoy your spending and enjoy your money. We talk why naming your money is important. There are so many really groundbreaking concepts in this episode that, like I said, completely changed my approach to my finances and it's really, really empowering. So when I started using Wynab myself and shared about it on Instagram, I got such an overwhelming response from a lot of you who said that it completely changed your life. If you have not tried it yet, I definitely recommend at least just checking it out.

Jesse was kind enough to give us a three-month free trial. You do not have to put in a credit card or any information. You can get a feel for it for three months, which is really helpful because you really need to get in the flow of it and get used to using this approach. And then if you decide that this is something you want to keep in your life, you can go on and subscribe. So you can go to Ynab.com slash well, Y-N-A-B-com slash well. And I really hope you love Jesse Meekam. Welcome, Jesse. Thanks. Really excited to talk to you. I personally believe that financial wellness is a huge foundational part of wellness and overall well-being. Anytime I've done a finance episode, a lot of people say that they don't want to listen because they're scared. And I think that this is an attitude and a

relationship that a lot of us have with money. It's almost like we don't want to look at it, you know? So we're going to be talking about all of this today, but why don't you just tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do. Yeah. So my name is Jesse Meekam. I'm the founder of Wynab and we are an education company that sells an app to pay the bills. Every time someone spends money, they kind of second guess a little bit. And it can be for a big thing like it can be for a big vacation or it could be for something like a coffee. And, And whether it's big or small, they have this kind of back of their mind just nagging. And they don't even necessarily know it's there because it's always been there.

And we try and teach people a principle, we call it giving every dollar a job, which allows them to eliminate that second guessing around their spending. I mean, we spend so much of our lives, especially once, you know, you become an adult and all that, you spend so much of your time and effort and energy. And even as a kid, earning money to get a good job. to get a scholarship, to go to college, to get a good job. All of it's centered around earning. And then when it comes to spending, it stresses us out and we want to run away from it.

And so we're just trying to get that same intention that we bring to our earning. Let's just bring a little bit of that over to our spending and have it be something that brings us joy instead of stress. I love that. And it's so empowering to know. You know, we don't want to look at it and we second-guessed and we always have that nagging in our head. But once you do look at it and, you know, it really changes your relationship with it. And then you can do really what your philosophy is, which is make your money work for you, essentially.

I like to think of money as you. I really try and tell people it's like a self-care routine because when you think about all the effort that you put into earning that dollar, I don't want to make it sound like I think money is this end-all be-all. But when you consider all of the time and effort and energy and calories that you spend to earn that dollar, what else could we call it except a little representation of you and your efforts? So to say that you also want to care about how that little bit of you is then used in the world, I think it's a noble thing. And it allows people to start feeling like they can actually be more aligned and more true to themselves when they start to line up their spending with who they

really are, what they really want. I love that. And you've talked about how your relationship with money was kind of molded when you were younger, right? So your parents instilled in you this attitude and this approach to finances. They gave you books to read. A lot of us don't have that. Actually, I want to give my family a little bit of credit. So they tried. My grandmother, actually, both grandparents on both sides would always give me stock as gifts. And I was like, this is horrible. You know, like as a kid, yeah, I had no idea. And I remember in my early 20s when I was starting to accumulate a lot of financial destruction, put it that way. My grandmother gave me Susie Orman's book, Young, Broke, and Fabulous or something like that. And, you know, I just wasn't in the place where I was

receiving any of that. And I did not want to improve my relationship with my finances. But do you think that all of our relationships are ultimately molded when we are younger? I hate to say that they are because then I feel like I've kind of written people off, written you off like, well, sorry as a kid this was how you were molded so yes we're formed there like these these ideas are formed but they can be changed we're not molded in concrete and so you can say hey i had some pretty lousy stuff modeled to me as a kid maybe all you ever knew about money was you saw your parents stressing over it or even that it was like inciting fights and so you were kind of trained from a young age okay we avoid that we don't talk about that or maybe money was always just something that you

didn't have. There are a lot of people that start working with us where they've been living paycheck to paycheck so long that one of their habits is actually to spend money as soon as they get it. And you would think that you wouldn't want to save a little bit if you're living paycheck to paycheck, but because all they know is being really tight, when they have money, their brain is actually telling them, well, you better spend it while you have it because you won't have it long. And so it's a counter thing, but this is all what we learn, but you can change it. You can change that trajectory. And you can even look back at your parents and say, hey, wow, they sure modeled the wrong thing. And even that is useful. And so no matter how we were raised or what our parents did or didn't

do, you can say, okay, I've learned from that. I learned that I want to do more of it or I want to do less. So still kind of take it and make of it what you can. Yeah, it sounds like we are malleable. Absolutely. To say anything else would be so depressing. Learning how to manage your finances is a skill like anything else and it might require practice and like any other habit, it's going to take a little bit of time. There's a little bit of friction. There's a little bit of discomfort. We were just talking before we started recording about, you know, my experience. And I historically knew nothing about finances, even when Rameet came on my podcast, like maybe a year or two ago. I was in a very kind of unique situation because I was married to somebody who was uber, uber wealthy and I was

making a ton of money. I'm now divorced and still in a good situation, but you know, things have changed and I've had to learn more over the past few years and I've had to become more intentional. So that's what we're going to be talking about today, right? It's like being intentional with our money. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people make when it comes to their finances? We talked about obviously not paying attention, spending as soon as they get it and guessing when it comes to transactions and what they're spending. But what are some of like the universal things that you see a lot of. The biggest mistake is. that they stop imagining what they can do.

They just give it up. Money ends up being a chore, something that's relegated to like take out the trash, empty the dishwasher, and do your money, pay the bills. Like money becomes just like a to-do item instead of a way of, I don't want to say manifesting, but acting in the world.

Money is powerful for good or evil, right? When you can say to yourself, okay, this power that I hold, how do I want to express it? How do I want to employ it? and imagine a life with money helping you instead of hurting you. It's there to do your bidding. I have seven kids.

I have lots of rough drafts, you know? I think my seventh will probably be a pretty good person, you know? You think you've figured it out? I've figured it out. My older ones are like, you spoil him. I was like, well, I figured it out. And we have more money than when my first was, you know, five. But it's interesting to watch kids manage their money really well in the sense that you

say, like, well, what do you want to do? Faye is my sixth. I have to think about it for a second. She loves to read, and she earns some money. And I said, what do you want to do with it? She's like, I want to buy a Kindle. This is her fourth Kindle. She keeps losing them or dropping them in water or whatever.

And I was like, you've gone through three other kindles. But she was so certain about it. And what was great was not that she has lost three and needs a fourth, but the certainty of this nine-year-old was astounding. And somewhere along the way, we adults, we just, It's like, well, what do you want with your money? They don't even ask themselves that question. And that's the biggest mistake.

Yeah, I think that people tend to have a scarcity mindset when it comes to money, right? And that's understandable. Times are hard. A lot of people did grow up in environments where that was what was passed on to them. And I think that there's a lot of fear around money. And even I experience it, even though I'm in a good situation. You know, anybody I think experiences that no matter what your circumstances are. Income is totally not correlated with stressing about money.

That much we have found. It is not at all correlated. Someone that makes very little or you tack on three more zeros at the end and they are still just as stressed. Like stress is like this universal emotion we have attached to it. It doesn't have to be that way. It really doesn't. But I would love to push on scarcity. I actually, I don't like the scarcity mindset, but we teach people when we talk about giving every dollar a job.

we're actually introducing scarcity into their thinking in a positive way in the sense that we want them to acknowledge that their money is finite. And when it's finite, it means that you must choose what you want from it. And choosing is what allows you to start expressing and figuring out who you are and how you want money to help you. And so scarcity brings clarity to your thinking, where when you realize if I do this, like when your prior situation where you're married and there was no scarcity right and you didn't never feel like well gosh if I do this I won't be able to do that you could truly do both and unless

we really got creative there just wouldn't be a problem and so in that instance you weren't feeling this really useful thing of hey because this things are finite you have to decide A or B and in deciding you get to find out about yourself and you get to realize that A is far more important and so we want people to embrace that scarcity, that idea of trading off so that they can get to know themselves better and then make sure that their money lines up with that better known self. Yeah, I heard you say that a budget is a plan with finite resources. And I love that. And I love this idea of trying to have your money at zero all of the time. And this is what's so different about other budgeting apps or approaches. So maybe we can use like a real life example so that people understand

exactly what we're saying when we're talking about like this finite amount of resources. So whether someone has 300 or 3,000 or 30,000, we start them with the same question. There are five questions that you walk through. Anytime you're practicing this principle of giving every dollar a job, it's these five questions. And you just rinse and repeat. It's a little bit like if you were doing Ashtanga yoga, which I'm horrible at it, but they have the same poses.

You walk through the same routine every time. Or you watch like an elite athlete before they shoot a free throw. They will do the same routine every time. And so what we've introduced as these five questions where you just can work through, answer everyone, and it helps you give every dollar a job and eliminates the second guessing because you've kind of addressed every aspect. And we can get into it in detail or we don't need to. But the first question is, what does this money need to do before I'm paid again?

And if it's the $10,000 that you've got in your bank account, most people right away will start to tell me, oh, Jesse, but also I'm going to sell this house and get this commission or this client's going to send me this check. They'll start to talk to me about all this money that's going to come in. And what we really want to have them do is just focus on only what's in the bank account. There's two reasons for that. Well, it's really one primary reason, which is we want to get to zero. We want to get that feel scarce, feel finite. But we also want to reduce variables. And so if we reduce or eliminate anything else that's going to come in and we just say, no, no, like Ariel, for you, like $10,000, what does just this money need to do? And you could just start

rattling off, you're like, well, the mortgage is due. I got to pay the contract or this or that or this bill's coming up. The money just starts to be kind of swallowed up. But hopefully you get toward the end where you've got, I don't know, a couple grand left. And it gets kind of fun where we would say, well, what does that money need to do? And you're like, well, gosh, it could do anything. And then we would maybe move to the second question. And I would say, well, what larger or less frequent expenses should you prepare for? And that would bring like Ariel from the future. So like she would come and sit in this chair and it would just be like present you and future you and you'd be talking and she'd be like well what about the car this or what about this thing we wanted to improve for the house or what about a vacation I want to go on or Christmas it's coming up. And so what happens is present you and future you are both kind of battling over the resources you're negotiating and you're starting to plan for the future while also making sure that you don't just live always in the future.

Some people that are habitual savers, it's a small percentage, but they just kind of save, save, save. And then I guess they die at some point and their kids spend their money. I'm not sure exactly what will happen. But we don't want that either. You want a balance of that tension from what you want to do now and what you want to do in the future. And a lot of people that say, oh, you know, I can't get on my feet. I can't break this paycheck to paycheck cycle. Something always happens.

You know, the car breaks down or whatever. Like we just replaced two water heaters in the house. and you're like I guess things last you know five six years now and it just happens like it's because we're living you know and with the fires here I heard you mentioned a little while ago I mean talk about like the future just something looming and coming down at you where you're like what are we supposed to do how do we manage this so much of the time when we talk about emergency striking it's really just we haven't thought about eventualities like car tires wear out you know Christmas does come vacations want to be had. And when we can think about it that way, we start to eliminate the emergencies in our lives.

And then the real ones, like the fires, that's where you're like, okay, I'm glad I had insurance. I'm glad I have an actual emergency fund. But when someone says, oh, my car tires wore out, this is emergency. It's like, they always wear out. Like, that's just something that happens. Or my anniversary came. You're like, well, that comes every year, you know. That's not an emergency. And so sometimes our lack of preparation creates that emergency. So when we have the $10,000 to kind of bring it back, it's not that you're just saying, what does this money need to do for me now,

but also what does this money need to do for future me? And that person gets a seat at the table. It gets more fun as you move further into the questions where the fourth question is, what goals large or small do you want to prioritize? And then it's not just, oh, I got to pay this big bill, I got to do this.

Now it's like, gosh, what could we do? And my wife, she's got the Maldives on her mind. Have you ever been to the Maldives? No. I was like, it's too far to fly, you know? That's a long trip. But she's like, we got to go. And that's her being like, well, what could we do?

And you're starting to aspire. You're starting to create instead of just react to life coming at you. I love that. And I love that you get to kind of balance living in the now, being realistic for what's happening now, but also getting to use your imagination a little bit and get hopeful for things that you want to do in the future. Absolutely. Yeah, and I heard you talk about never making a plan with the money that you don't have.

And I think that that probably resonates with a lot of people. I know that I have a lot of creatives and people with side hustles and whatnot that follow me. Even myself, like I have a variable income because I'm paid on a schedule of net 30, 60, 90 depends on the brand. So some months I'm like, holy shit. And then other months I'm like, wait, what? Like I'm rich. I'm broke. I did so much work.

Exactly. And a habit that I got into was just taking, you know, my total annual income. and kind of just spending according to that, and that doesn't always work. The timing can be wrong sometimes. Timing and let me tell you. Remodeling a house. Oh, forced remodel? No, I bought a house last May, post-divorce.

And, you know, I think part of it was, it was something that I always felt like I wanted to do for myself. And I think it also created a little bit of security because I went through a separation and then we got back together and then we got divorced. And the whole time I remember thinking if I had my own place, it's true. feel a lot more, a lot less destabilizing, right? So I found this house, beautiful, unique gem, but it needed some remodeling. And I did that. And of course, it's twice as long and twice as expensive, which I know because I've done it before. And I'm almost done. I'm at the end here, but I'm just like, oh my God. The last 10% is like half of the time. You feel like that's so true. And all of the money.

And I'm just like ready for it to be over. So I don't even know how I got off on that. Well, the timing of bills and things, like for those listening that are in that variable income space, most people live with a variable income. You're an exception if you have this super stable job, you know, this super stable salary. Our third question is actually where we've talked about what do you want to do now, think about larger or less frequent expenses. The third question is, what could you set aside for next month? It's a distinct question in the five. Someone like you, I would coach and I would say, okay, not just take the annual and divide it by 12. and that's roughly your gauge, I would just say, we want to get to where we can start the month

fully funded. Like, we can handle every bill that comes our way and we can be funding those bills that will be coming later. So, like, let's say you're like, Jesse, I'm going to spend $2,400 for Christmas this year. I'd be like, okay, it's a $200 Christmas bill. So when you're fully funded at the beginning of your month, it would mean you're paying all your bills that are truly due and you're funding things like the Christmas bill or the vacation bill or the remodel bill. We want to get to where that roller coaster is just even. And you get to that by saying, I am fully funded for the month. I can handle not just the now, but I can also fund future bills.

So when the property taxes are due or like the final contractor comes finally, comes and says like, hey, here, this is, you're all done. You just pay it. And for you, even though the cash flow that's gone out has been like this, your feeling is nice and steady. And that is, and it is, Ariel, it is achievable. where then you aren't worrying about like when's this client going to pay me or chasing down invoices. I mean, you still have to collect hard sometimes.

But the outcome of collecting and billing and all of that doesn't affect your personal day-to-day money situation. We want those to be as separate as possible so that with a clear mind you can be living. And then with a clear mind, you can be like, let's get this collection stuff done. Let's try and get to net 30 with people, whatever it is. But you can get to where your cash flow is wild and you are just serene. Absolutely. Yeah. How does this work for people who are living paycheck to paycheck like you mentioned and people

that have a lot of debt as well? Because I know that that's a huge question and something that a lot of people experience, whether it's school loans, credit card debt, things like that. So if they have all of this money that they owe and they have all of this money that has to go out monthly and their living paycheck to paycheck, how can, they adopt this approach? It's the same. I mean, the same questions.

We don't focus on people that truly are living like below the poverty line. When you work with people like that, you realize that they are extremely creative. They stretch dollars in ways that would blow our minds. But we've seemed to have landed in a spot where there are people that make good money, and actually it kind of bothers them that they know they make good money,

and they still haven't been able to shake stress that they had when they were 24 or 20, or whatever it may be. But when they start giving every dollar a job and working the questions, the first thing that happens is when they're dealing with reality, they'll give every dollar a job there

and then they'll start to look to the future. And when they're looking toward the future that used to cause emergencies, it now won't because their present spending is being evaluated against future bills. And what used to happen was someone would look at their bank account and they would say, like, do I have money in here? How much do I need? They would do some mental math and they would go and

spend on whatever. I should be clear like, I don't care at all how people spend their money in the slightest. So they go by whatever. And then the bill comes that they forgot about. And then they think, I just never can get ahead. So they have to put a little bit on the card, but only this month, never more than that. Right. And that cycle repeats with like, I just can't get ahead. This emergency popped up. They put it on the card. When they start to evaluate their future expenses and their current needs, then when they're being asked by friends, hey, do you want to go out? And they're like, oh, I mean, I have money in my bank account, but like, I actually don't have money for going out. They've made a different decision in the now that will affect them in the future. And that's

the first step toward them starting to build a little bit of margin. The first thing we do is prevent new debt. And that is important. We don't want someone to just go hog wild crazy with their debt, pay it off, and then they feel so defeated when something happens and they've got to swipe again. So if we can get him balancing the now and those future bills, then they prevent the debt. And then one of the things in the now that they have to deal with is I'm almost talking about like tenses of spending. You have like spending now, you have spending in the future with vacations or bills. And then you have like spending from the past from all the debt. We're just trying to balance all of that. It's really no more complicated than, like you said, seeing it all right there on the app

or whatever system you use. You don't have to use wine app, but seeing it all right there and then being able to still feel like, what do I want to do? What are my tradeoffs? And at some point, a lot of people will say, okay, I'm ready to pay down some of this debt. But they'll do it, knowing they've got future bills covered and the current covered, and then they can start tackling it. And it doesn't mean they stop going on vacation. It doesn't mean they eat beans and rice. It doesn't mean that they live, you know, just like a Scrooge or something. Like you can get on a debt paydown plan that takes five, six years, but you like the pace, you feel like you're still living, totally doable.

I mean, it would be like if I was like, hey, Ariel, we're going to go start strength training. Like, let's start you out over here. And you're like, well, can we take a different pace? We're going to get to a pace where you feel like you're making progress. You're happy with the progress. But you're able to enjoy other aspects of life. And we want that balance. And so whether you're making a million dollars a year or $40,000 a year,

these principles are really just trying to have you feel the tradeoffs. Get clarity from that scarcity and know yourself a little more. I think that's probably refreshing for people to hear because, again, back to some of the emotions that accompany this financial stuff, there's so much guilt and shame and a stress of it. And I'm sure that when people get into that situation where they do have a lot of debt, they are feeling a lot of those things. And then they hear budget and they think, great, you know, I do have to be eating the rice and the beans and saving every penny and just not getting. All the fun goes out the window. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, hey, here's a diet for the rest of your life.

Yeah. You know, enjoy yourself. And it just doesn't work that way. We tried to redefine the word budget. We totally failed. Like, it's really hard to redefine an English word. And so we avoid saying it. Like, we just don't even tell people like, Wineab stands for you need to budget. We're like, oh, no, it doesn't. It stands for anything else except that, you know. we just call it Wynab to avoid the word because there's so much negative connotation with it and we realized after a while we're like man okay so that marriage was saved and that family went on a life-changing vacation and this family was able to care for their aging grandparent and this family was able to pay off 150 grand in debt and go to Disneyland and you're like a budget like really this

is what we're teaching and it's just been like this two-decade long epiphany where we're like oh, we're not really teaching people to do what they think a budget is. So we've just, we've jettisoned the word as much as we possibly can. You need to come up with a new acronym for why not. I know, we need to rename the whole, you know, the whole thing. It's an ankle weight we've got. We're dragging around. But it's important for people to realize, like, you work so hard for your money.

It is such a shame to think you can't enjoy spending it. Yeah. And, I mean, it is often one of the largest purposes of our lives, right? I mean, obviously kids and people give back in other ways and get fulfillment in other ways, but the majority of us, the vast majority of us, are waking up and doing something to earn money. Yeah. And when you start to spend it well, and I mean well meaning aligned with you, no one can write and be like, Jesse, what does spending well mean?

What exactly do I buy? It's just whatever you want. And when you start to spend well, earning money actually starts to feel better too. So maybe you don't have like the dream job or whatever. But when your money starts to do things you want, the work itself starts to have a different feel to it where you're like, you know what? This is starting to feel worth it. Like I don't feel like I'm just on some treadmill like not able to get ahead. Part of what can make a job really soul-sucking is you feeling like you aren't making progress.

And so, you know, you think about some like cliche, you know, office job or something or people talk about cubicle workers or whatever. I mean, imagine your worst job. If you knew also that you weren't going to get ahead from doing all that work, that's absolutely demoralizing. So if we can get people loving how they spend, then suddenly maybe they'll at least like their job a little more. Do you have any tips for how people can hone in on that? We were talking about Rameet before.

He talks about your rich life. Everybody's rich life is different. You have these different categories. And so I have the categories of my overhead for my business. I have my house. I have my taxes. I have my projects that I'm working on. I have all of my expenses. But then you can make other categories, right, and be like, oh, I do want to go on that trip, whatever it is. Start a side hustle. How do you suggest people get really clear on what they do want in the future and how they can make it more

fun and fulfilling? Yeah. If you're doing it with a spouse, do this, but don't talk about money. So often, people that are they're sharing finances and they're sharing everything but they actually don't talk about money in this way which is like this aspirational like what do we want like and what happens is we'll have couples thinking that they're having a money conversation and then you tell them well don't talk about money just talk about like what money might maybe could possibly in the future do for you and it starts to look just like good old fashion like vision boarding like life planning and then the couple's like we never even talk about what we want so money while it's not the most important thing in the world it affects all of the most important things in the world so when we are coaching people on

how do you figure out what you want don't let money be a part of it at first just like good old fashion don't google it don't ask an AI to figure it out for you like just pen and paper just write down like well what do I want out of life what are my goals and see if once you've got a list that's resonating with you, then ask yourself, well, how could money help me here? What could I get here? We've gotten really into like my, Pahue I mentioned, she's doing horseback riding and I've never been a horse person. I like him, nothing against horses at all. They're actually, like from a therapeutic sense, we've been learning about it. Amazing. Really amazing. And the other day I was like, are we going to get horses at some point? And it was kind of

cool to think, well, maybe that would be a thing. And maybe you could have it a thing where like other kids could come and feel the vibes from the horse and like heal in certain ways. And it was a cool thing for me. And I realized the only way I was even remotely entertaining it was because I was allowing money to come in and be like, hey, we could try that. We could do that. You know, you could look at all kinds of options. And it was neat to see that it's an enabler and not something that's like oh sorry you can't sorry you can't going back to the kids thing maybe you grew up where you're like can we have this no we don't have any money we don't have any money i would encourage parents to choose different words that a little more empowering like we're choosing not to buy that so we can do this

words like that that'll see that there's agency involved in money and not just you know the world's beating us down kind of a thing i love that are there any universal rules probably not as i'm saying this i'm like no, but I know that a lot of people are going to ask after this comes out. And when I've done episodes on finance prior to it, people had this question basically, which was how much should I be saving? Yeah. How much of a nest egg should I have or whatever you want to call it, emergency fund? How much should I be investing? Like people like these rules that then they can sit down and go, okay, I'm going to put this away for investment. I'm going to put this away for emergencies. you know, I think it makes it a little more clear for people. So do you have any suggestions there?

So I really hesitate to give a comfortable formula here. There are all kinds of budgets that you'll look at where it's like the 50, 30, 20. And then someone else came out with like the 40, 40, 10, 10. And then like, and you start to realize like, oh, there's a percentage breakdown. There are so many that you're like, well, that starts to feel kind of tailored for whatever anyone wants to do. There's a, the fire movement where they're just like save 80%, you know, and live in a truck, in the bed of the truck, rent out the cab, you know, that kind of thing. There's just so many different options. And I would want to frame one, the savings thing when someone says, how much should I save? Savings is just future spending. So you don't ever save money. You just say, I'm going to spend that

later every time. So when people talk about an emergency fund, like, well, that's for emergencies. And then their cat spills water on their laptop and they're like, oh, I got to pull out of my savings to replace the laptop. And you're like, well, wasn't that what it was for? But they don't feel good about it. They feel like they aren't a good saver. It's like this revolving door of savings. It's like, I'm saving money.

They put it in. And then things are a little tight. Maybe they're doing the freelance thing. And so they pull the money out and they feel bad because they spent their savings. So we have to let go of that idea that savings isn't meant to be spent. It absolutely is. The problem with savings is people don't name it well. So they just call it savings.

But I would be like, okay, Ariel, show me your savings. You're like, okay, I got this 30 grand here. And I'm like, well, what is it for? And you're like, oh, taxes. It's like, oh, well, that's not fun at all, but taxes. Okay, cool. And you're like, and the rest of the remodel. That's this.

Okay, that's more exciting. And this trip is coming. Okay, that's more exciting. Like we're starting to earmark that money with something that's named. And anytime you name something, you give it more meaning. and that meaning is emotional. It moves you. It also keeps you from robbing from it on a whim

because you want to do something this Friday night right now. And when this Friday night right now is held up against the Maldives trip for Julie, she's like, I want the Maldives more because it has meaning to it. So don't ever let money just sit in there and say, oh, that's savings. For investing, it's the same thing. It's just further out. But like we're going to spend our nest eggs. They're meant to be spent.

So however much you think you'll need, based on your spending, you'd want to, you know, all kinds of financial advisors can do this, calculators can do this, just chat GPT could walk you through it. You're like, here's how I want to spend in retirement. It'll tell you, here's what you need. It'll do a great job of it. That's not the rocket science part. The rocket science part is figuring out how you want to spend.

And then you just backpedal into here's how much you'll need to save. So when you're 60 and you retire finally, you know, you'll be fine. But figuring out who you are and how you should spend, that's the fun part and the hard part. I just had a revelation. Oh, excellent. So thank you for that. Because I'm that person. I think that I have a healthy relationship with money and whatnot.

But as you were talking about the savings, that's me. I have savings and then I have to spend it on things. Yeah. And then I feel guilty about spending it. So what's something you're saving for right now? Like what's somebody where you're like, oh, it made my savings? Well, I have this project that I'm working on. It's very costly, but it's exciting.

Is it a secret project? Yes. Okay. So I have to be a little bit vague, but I've been working on it for like a year and a half. So I wouldn't say that's necessarily savings. I am aware that I'm going to be spending that. But I feel like, you know, I have my investments and then I have my cash accounts. And then I always just try to keep like a certain bulk of cash.

I don't know. For what? for things like that. And then I use it. And then I'm like, fuck, why did I do that? Because I feel like I just need to have this chunk of money sitting there for. I mean, it's security. It's a security thing for sure.

You can feel it when you say it. And I know having been through what I've been through, that for me at least, there is not really an amount that equates to security. So I know that. But then another example is like, I have a- Well, one second. Are you sure there's not an amount that like- Well, maybe.

Yeah. Like if it were to go low, you wouldn't feel good. Is there like a high end where if it went over X, you're like, that seems a little maybe too much? No. No, I don't think there's. I'd push on that a little bit and just see if there is. Yeah. Like some number where you're like, this is my safety net.

I would have you name it in Wynab. There's this great company out of Utah that makes these super soft blankets called minkies. So everyone's like, oh, I love my minky. And I would name your category Minky because it's supposed to just like have you feel secure. right and then you would just put money in there and be like the job of that money give every dollar job the job of that money is to help aerial feel good secure i feel like that is more my money that i have like in investments that's kind of my future money but not to make this about myself but this is kind of example i'm trying to so i have a lot of money in the smp and then last beginning of last year i bought

this house a lot of money i paid cash oh cool because i felt like i don't want to have the bill of the mortgage. I know that's something you've talked about too. And then I put a lot of money into it as well. And then I saw what my money in the SMP did last year. And I was like, fuck, and it's been keeping me up at night. And I'm like, why? You know, like, I'm okay. Like, I'm more than fine. And I just keep ruminating on this thing. And I feel like you've probably had situations like that. I know so many people that are like, yeah, I had an opportunity to invest in this or I took this money out of that. And then that turned into a billion dollar company, whatever, you know, even on a way smaller scale than that, we all have this. But it's just interesting how, and that's my stuff. That's my fear. It's not really

related to money. It has nothing to do with the number. It's about, I don't know, security, I guess, at the end of the day, or fear. Yeah, but I think that security will come more from how you view it. I agree with you now. I was going to push back and be like, there's got to be a number where Ariel's like, oh, I'm good. But it actually will come from inside you where like the money is, and dependent of it where you can just be like, okay, I choose to just kind of be settled about this. I mean, you've been through some very, very unsettling things. So it would make sense that you're not really like even subconsciously allowing yourself to feel settled. Yeah. You know, I got sober at 28. I was a hope to die, drug addict and alcoholic. I had no money. I had to depend on other people. I was

constantly in fear about that. And then, you know, I had a lot of financial destruction, like I mentioned. I mean, I had negative money by the time I got sober. I owed it to everybody. I had so much debt. I had cars repoed. I just, you know, it's horrible. So I was starting at like negative, who even knows. I mean, it took a long time to rebuild. So I think that it definitely lends itself to the hypervigilance, I think, that I have around money. Yeah. And like I would give that a good bit of space like it's totally okay and allowed that's okay to have that kind of reaction to that those experiences you know thank you didn't the s&P go down a bunch recently so look look at you avoid it was like 23% two years ago and 24 last year i mean amazing and i just wasn't paying that much attention to it because

that's my long-term money that's the money that i sat with my guy at fidelity right a few years ago and said this is not what i'm going to be checking every day or even weekly or monthly this This is not money that I need to take from, and it's going to be volatile, and it's going to go up and down, but it's always going to trend up. And then I did sit down and look at it, and I was like, God, I wish I paid attention. But then, you know, I talked earlier about the house thing, and that creates a different kind of security, right? So, no, it wasn't sitting in an account accumulating over the last year or two, but it was the right decision at that time for me. Our fifth question is, what changes, if any, do I need to make? we get new information all the time and we change our minds all the time and we're allowed to like

totally allowed to and like if you go to the beach and it's raining you're just like oh maybe we don't go to the beach no one thinks well beaches are horrible you know like no one writes off beaches but we do that with our money where we say i've got this plan for my money and then we get new information we need to be able to say well let's change our mind and you had good information back then and what you're reacting to is just what everyone does where you're you're you're you're you're just like, oh, I could have should have. Hypothetical. Yeah, hypotheticals.

And it could have just as easily gone down 50%. And it might still, and you'll look like a genius. So just wait and see. But that stuff can make you crazy. I used to be much more invested traditionally. You know, I'm 44 now. I remember when I was in my early 30s, I was doing my investing thing. And just kind of doing the standard like 15, 20% that you read in personal finance books.

And you're supposed to invest pretty aggressively when you're young. that and I realized that it was keeping me up at night and I didn't like that and my allocation is much more like if you were an 80 year old widow I'm very conservative on that stuff but it was funny that I had this almost like man card moment like I can't believe I can't handle this volatility it was really really weird felt like I was in junior high again or something and I just had to realize like no Jesse like your business is the risky thing and this stuff is meant for you to feel safe, you know, safer.

And I had to change it all to where it wouldn't keep me up at night. Maybe I need to do that too. And you might. Like you have a lot of, my guess is your business is the thing that's volatile, but also like high potential. So that's the thing that's like the wild ride. And maybe you need someone that's not quite as wild of a ride. I don't know.

Man, now I'm changing my entire outlook. And then Carl Richards has a great book called The Behavior Gap. And he also says, never be rash. you come into some money or whatever, like always let these things simmer. So even this conversation where you're like, oh, maybe I should just like let it simmer, you know. Well, thank you so much. This was so fun.

Tell everybody where they can find you and find Wynab and all of that. So it's hard to find me anywhere. I'm not in a lot of places, but you can email me like old school. You know, Jesse at Wynab, happy to answer questions there. And then Wynab.com. I think they have a special trial with you, right? So they get like a little bit of a perk. So it's whinab.com slash well.

Is that it? Yeah. Wineab.com slash well. And it's a three month free trial. Yeah. So three times longer than what we normally give. Yeah. Which is amazing because it takes a little bit of time for you to get used to doing this.

And I think that in that three months, you really start to see, oh my God, it really does change your mindset. And you start to really get in the flow with it. So it's amazing that you guys are offering that. And I know so many of my listeners love it. I was so happy to hear it. hear that. And I want people to just take home, like, whether or not they use wine, I mean, definitely check it out. But just take home, like, all this effort and ingenuity and creativity that goes into earning that. Like, let's just take a fraction of that effort, energy,

and creativity and apply it to how we spend and enjoy our spending. Love it. Thank you so much. Thanks. I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you liked the episode, and if you liked the show in general, please take a second to rate, review, and subscribe. It goes such a long way. in supporting the show. Follow the show over on Instagram at well.pod. You can also follow my personal Instagram at Ariel Lori. I'm always sharing great clips from the episodes. And we also have full episodes on YouTube as well if you want to watch in entirety. Thanks for listening. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and

services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.