Well with Arielle Lorre - 406: The Psychology of Fame, Codependency and Reclaiming Your Life with Terri Cole

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

Terri Cole is a therapist, author and former high-powered talent agent. From navigating the high-glam world of modeling agencies to helping A-listers through rehab, Terri's journey from powerhouse talent agent to renowned psychotherapist is anything but ordinary. In this episode, we get into the hidden cost of success, high-functioning codependency, why hyper-independence can backfire, and how conflict entrepreneurs thrive on chaos. Terri opens up about navigating addiction in her own family, being engaged to the wrong person, and the magnetic pull between codependents and narcissists—plus the crucial difference between overt and covert narcissism. It’s a candid, layered conversation about healing, boundaries, and reclaiming yourself.This episode is brought to you by YNAB, Prolon, Open Phone, Just Thrive, LMNT, Puori, and Fatty15Claim an exclusive three-month free trial with no credit card required at www.YNAB.com/wellVisit www.ProlonLife.com/BLONDE to claim your 15% discount and your bonus giftVisit www.OpenPhone.com/blonde for 20% off your first 6 monthsVisit www.justthrivehealth.com/discount/Well and save 20% on your first 90 day bottle of Just Thrive probiotic with promo code WELLGet a free sample pack with any purchase at www.DrinkLMNT.com/WELLVisit www.Puori.com/BLONDE and use my promo code BLONDE at checkout for 20% offYou can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to www.fatty15.com/WELL and use code WELL at checkoutPlease note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.Produced by Dear Media.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I'm Ariel Lori, and each week I'm sharing unfiltered conversations with people shaping how we feel, live, and look. Come for the substance, stay for the honesty, and leave with the tools to be well, inside and out. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm really excited about today's episode for a number of reasons. One, I feel like I have not done a.

mental health focused episode in quite a while. And two, because my guest, I just absolutely adore. I know you were going to as well. She's been on my radar for quite a while. And I just loved our conversation so much. She has such an interesting career. So I'm talking to Terry Cole. Terry was a high-powered talent agent. She actually had her own modeling agency. She was working with the likes of Naomi Amy Campbell. And in the episode, she shares about how she felt like she was just sending people off to clinics and rehabs. And she was around a lot of toxicity. And she decided to make a change in her life. And she became a psychotherapist. She's also now a global relationship and empowerment expert. And for over two decades, she has worked with a diverse group of clients that includes everyone from stay at home,

moms to celebrities and Fortune 500 CEOs and everybody in between. In the episode, we talk about how she also works with celebrities and people in the public eye about the psychology and the experience of fame and how to navigate that, which I thought was really interesting because I think that people just assume that it's all amazing and it definitely comes with its downsides. So in this episode, we are talking about all of the. that and so much more. We talk about her own personal journey from powerhouse agent to renowned therapist. And we talk about things like the hidden cost of success. We talk high functioning codependency. She has a book out called Too Much, which is all about high functioning codependency.

And it was something that I could really relate to. And we touch on things like addiction and being engaged to the wrong person. We talk about the pull between codependence and narcissists, plus the very crucial difference between overt and covert narcissism. I think that word is thrown around a lot in today's lexicon. So it's a really candid, layered conversation about healing, boundaries, and reclaiming yourself. She's also very disarming in the way that she speaks, and she throws in some cuss words and things like that, and she's just very real. And I loved her. I loved her energy. I know you guys are going to as well. So please enjoy Terry Cole. Welcome. Wow, thanks for having me.

I feel like I already know you, too. Something funny about like the internet and also, I think, this camaraderie that we have. We are both sober. We have that common language and shared experience, which I always love. I always love recording with people who are sober as well for that reason. So welcome. Thanks. Thank you.

You have a really good glass skin. Sorry, I just have to like point this out. because you're sitting across from me. Your skin is amazing. Thank you. It's so glossy, very glassy. What is your skincare routine? It's not good.

No? Except I do stay out of the sun and have for many, many years. Yeah, I can tell. I do not like the sun. It does not like me. And also for young people, whatever you're putting on your face for sun, put on your hands as well. Because they and your chest, because that shit ages so fast. You're like, this can look great and then you're like, and my hands look like an old lady's.

You know, not mine because I've been doing it for years. Never go to bed with makeup on, obviously. Like really basic stuff. I really do nutrigena cleaning stuff I use. And the makeup I use is what's it called? Not the makeup. Hold on. The cream is La Roche Passaille, which is a fancy way of probably,

it's probably like an American brand that just pretends they're not. But anyway, inexpensive and great, and I love it. Yeah, okay. And I'm influenced because you look amazing. Thank you. Okay. So I would love to talk about your trajectory into doing what you do now because you used to be a talent agent. You were saying before that you worked with like supermodels, celebrities. We were both kind of on like the party scene. So I'd love to start there just for context. Sure. I was a talent agent before I became a psychotherapist. And part of why I left that world is that I was also deeply into therapy myself. I'd gotten into recovery young. I stopped drinking when I was 21. So to have wise, wide open at that early age of life, you're like, wow, I realized how I had no skills whatsoever because I had been numbing the feelings and now suddenly I was feeling everything.

But I loved it. And once I found therapy, I couldn't even believe it. I was like, does everyone know about therapy? Why isn't everyone doing it? The mind-blowing part to me when I stopped drinking is I realized like most people think about life and you feel like, oh, you got dealt the hand of cards from the family of origin, that you're born into your societal situation, money situation. And I had this total epiphany in therapy that it literally did not matter what hand I was dealt. I could be like, I don't like, I want a new

hand. I want a new deck. In fact, I'm making up my own game. And that's exactly what happened. I was like being sober. I could see this very distinctly. So to the right was 10 years, you know, not not being sober. What would that look like? And I feel like eventually I probably would have gotten sober, older, but it would have been a decade of bullshit. You know what I mean? Just bad decisions and regrets and feeling terrible about myself.

And then to the left, it was like if I looked at that fence, it was just like this clean slate. It was like nothing. And I was like, oh, I could actually just create the life that I want. And that's exactly what I did. I didn't know anyone in entertainment. obviously I didn't go to school for it because nobody can. It's not even a thing, right?

And I was like, I'm going to be a talent agent. And I found my way to do that. Did it for a bunch of years. Loved it, but then I got too healthy to stay. I was like, this shit is toxic. I need to get out. I couldn't be a part of the problem, especially because in the last couple of years of my career,

I was representing models. And I was like, I'm definitely part of the problem by being here. And I actually had a niece. One of my nieces was very young at the time, and she had a weight thing. And I was like, what am I telling her this kid that I love more than anything in the world, that she's not worthy because she's not skinny? Like, I really had a whole come to Jesus about it myself. And I decided to just literally quit my fat job.

Nobody got it. Everyone was like, wait. So you're representing Naomi Campbell, but now you're quitting your job? Why? My father was like, can't. Please explain. You're quitting your job. You're at the height of your, because I was running a bicostal talent agency. I was running the New York office of this talent agency. And he's like, why would you do that? And I said, because I'm not happy, dad. That's why. And he was like, sounds weird. I was like, good thing. I don't need anything from you. Thanks for the support. I was like, I'll take out loans. I'm good. And that was why I switched was I just really wasn't, I didn't feel fulfilled. And it was. And it was. wasn't that I didn't. I loved when I was doing it. I loved it. And when I really started not loving it is when I was like, you need another plan. And I knew it. Once I took one class in NYU non-matric

relating just to see like, how would it be? And it was an abnormal psych. And I fucking loved it so much. I was like, oh yeah, this forever. I want to do this forever. But going to school, just learning about the mind and relationships. And it was just blew my mind. I was so happy. And that was literally, I've been a therapist for 27 years. I was going to ask you if you were interested in therapy as a result of your own experience or being in that toxic situation and seeing it in other people and having this desire to learn more about it and help. Is that what inspired that? Great question.

Because the truth is it was both. I was certainly inspired by how amazing it was that I felt like I could change my own life. But what was happening, the reason I left, what really was my pivot moment, is that I could no longer. or deny that the only thing I cared about was the mental health of my clients. I was getting everyone into drug treatment clinics, eating disorder clinics. I was telling everyone to go to therapy. Like, actually. And I realized, I don't give a shit about the Pantene deal. I don't care about the movie deal that I'm supposed to be negotiating for this person. I mean, I'll do it. But I was like, you're going to start doing this badly. Like, you need to just take the leap, even though it was

scary because you're literally going from making a ton of money to making zero money, no dollars. And I thought to myself, you know, can you do that? And I was like, you know what? The money was and I never really lived any kind of an opulent lifestyle. I traveled a lot. I did what I wanted, right? And I still do. But, you know, I did what I wanted with my money. And I was like, money never really made me happy. Being fulfilled, doing something that hours go by and you, you know I mean, the time flies and you're like, oh my gosh, I've been, I've been in sessions all day, but not caring because you're so, you're so enthralled with what you're doing. That's what I wanted.

And that's what I got. And then it turned into this and writing and speaking. And now I do much more, you know, sort of I have some high profile clients because I actually became an expert at what happens to you when you become famous. Because that's a very specific niche where people think fame is amazing. unless you're famous and then you know. And nobody wants to hear any famous people complaining about shit, obviously. But there's a very specific psychological experience.

And you know this yourself because you're visible enough to know of what happens. There's like a hyper self-consciousness that can come along with this life of fame, of any level of fame. And it used to be only super famous people like in the movies would have this. And now, of course, with social media and with influencers, is hello and anyone can have this experience. Yeah, there's a lot there. One, I think that being sober, you kind of have this unique perspective where I don't know if this is how you felt, but I feel sometimes like, I'm too sober for this shit.

And so I exit things sooner than I might have had I not been sober, which is good and bad. Sometimes I'm like, damn it, I don't want to like do the right thing here, you know? And we just can't do that. I think being sober, I agree with you. Sort of I'm too sober for this bullshit. But your eyes are wide open. Yeah, the other piece of that, I mean, this could be a whole different conversation, but the piece about just the unique experience of being a public-facing person. And I'm sure you get it

a little bit too, because now you're public-facing and you're like an icon in your industry and you have a following on social media and all of that. Yeah, I don't think anybody wants to hear that it comes with its own set of problems. And I always say, I experience it on such a minuscule level compared to like real celebrities. And even on the level that I experience it, I sometimes feel like I don't think people are supposed to have this experience necessarily. I don't think that we're equipped necessarily to deal with the judgments and the opinions of people feedback daily being inundated with it.

And I remember I always bring up this example, but I heard a speaker once saying like, I think she was a teacher. She went in for a review. The critique was different. to hear. Somebody said something mean, and she talked about how that stuck with her for so long. And I was like, yeah, and people, whether there's celebrities, public figures, whatever, like deal with that daily, an influx of it daily. And it's like, suddenly you have to have the coping skills to deal with it that I don't think anybody innately has. And it's not natural for us. Because when you think about the way we've been

socialized, right? You have all of these keyboard words. or these people who I like to say have cyber balls because they would literally never have the courage to say that shit to your face like it would never be. And so it kept us in order socially because if you were going to break up with Sally, Bob, you needed to do it in some decent way because you were going to see her at church and you were going to see her somewhere else. We're so disconnected in a way that the humanity of it all, it gets lost in people wanting to feel powerful or people taking you know it's a lot of displaced aggression on the internet for sure yeah but i also think that anyone who has any kind of a following your job is to protect yourself you can't believe all

the good and you can't believe all the bad right my feeling is i love the celebrities who are not on social media at all who are like that the dream yeah if it's not part of their their business model it's a luxury not yeah yes and for many of us it's it's literally like a line item i don't on your business. Like it's something, it's a way to interact with people. But I also keep, I keep my community pretty tight in respect to. People think this shit is a democracy. You know what, man, anything I put out on social media, that shit is free. Yeah. And it is a benevolent dictatorship is what I say, by me. Where if I don't like you, I block you immediately. I don't need to. I will delete what you wrote. I don't need your permission. Yeah. Because it's,

free. So I don't really feel like I don't do anything, honestly. I mean, listen, people can disagree with me, of course, but I'm talking about people who are just shithsters, you know, people who are just looking to say something mean or prerocative to get your attention. There's someone, what is her name? She wrote a book. I heard her on Glenn and Doyle's podcast, and she was talking about that there are people who are conflict entrepreneurs where they just can live for it, just get off on. And to be very aware of the people in your life that if you have people who are doing that, and then she describes it, oh, God, I wish, this is what happens when you're not 25, but my memory sucks.

But anyway, you guys, she is a woman who writes about conflict. And she was talking about when she was at the New York Times and that she worked with someone, and if, let's say, a really important piece that she did got killed, she'd have someone in her office. She was describing the person who would. come into her office and close the door and say, I heard your peace got killed. And she's like, yeah, I'm so bummed. She's like, do you think it's because you're a woman? Oh, God. Right? And she's like, I didn't till you just said that. Thanks. So interesting for us to all keep our eyes on. Who is stirring the pot where personally or professionally or social media

wise? And to really not get sucked into that trap. Like let them, as Mel Robbins would say. Let them. Let them do what they're doing. You don't need to respond or reply. I'll let people who you feel like they intentionally are misunderstanding what you're saying. I know. It's the culture. People are so combative. And I think to your point, I always say I think people get a dopamine hit or something from feeling morally superior for that millisecond. And then they go on to the next video. And that's important to remember. You could be codependent with your fans and with your audience. If you are unduly influence and if you are twisting yourself off. like a pretzel and lighting yourself on fire to keep them warm, right, to make sure that they're happy. So really, with high functioning codependency, which is what this new book is about, it's called Too Much. I wrote this because I saw this thousands of times. And it was eerily familiar, this whole behavior, which I'll describe, but because it was my own flavor of codependency.

So the reason I had to come up with this, I coined this phrase, is because I have all of these baller women, boss women, CFOs, CEOs, just crushing it in life. So if I would say to them, oh, hey, what you're describing, that is a codependent behavioral pattern. They'd be like, wrong. You are incorrect, lady. You don't know what you're talking about. They're like, not me because I'm making all the moves. I'm making all the decisions. I'm making all the money. How could I possibly be codependent? So they're thinking of the Melody Beatty, codependent no more. You've got to be enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. I do love that book. I do a reading every morning. Oh, it's so amazing. Yeah. I mean, it's literally the seminal text

on codependency. And what I wrote adds to it for modern women because things have changed and because you don't have to be involved with an addict to be codependent. And as soon as I added high functioning to that definition, not to quote Taylor, but all my clients were like, me on the problem it's me without shame right they were like that literally is me and I'm exhausted so why does it matter right why did I expand this definition because the only way I can help my clients is if they could see themselves in the problem so when they really thought the problem was everyone else how how am walking them to a solution or helping them find their own solution I couldn't and so the work became so much more effective once they were like, oh my gosh, that is me. And I don't want to be that way.

So let's just, let's just identify the definition of high function and codependency. It's when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the situation, the circumstances, the finances, the careers of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace unhealthy. Yeah, I had this epiphany a little bit a few months ago in therapy because I felt like I was over extending myself in a lot of areas in my business, trying new things. And my therapist was kind of like, you're putting the customer first. And I think that sometimes you have to do that to have a business, but he was explaining it as a three-legged stool. And he's like, there's you and there's the customer or the product, and then

there's the money. And when those things are out of balance, if you're putting just the money and just the customer at the expense of yourself, it's the three-legged stool, it's going to topple over. And I'm sure the same would apply to your point. And relationships and wherever we tend to put the most weight, essentially. Yes. And let's look at what is the cost. Well, let's look at the, let's look at the traits first. You feel overly responsible for other people. You are an overgiver. You're an over-functioner, meaning you go above and beyond. A lot of times people didn't even ask you to do the thing, but you're doing it. You might also be hyper-independent. where it's really hard for you to ask other people to do things for you, hard to receive.

What are the other traits that we have? Oh, we can't stop giving you advice. We can't. We have so many good ideas. We really want to make sure that you understand what we're saying. So auto-advised giving, auto-accommodating, where if something is happening and there's a problem, immediately you'll be like, it's fine. I'll get an Uber.

You take the car. Like, we really want peace. We want peace in the bedroom and peace in the backyard and peace in the valley. peace everywhere, but so much of the time we create that at the expense of our own peace. So those are some of the traits and the behaviors. And I get a lot of pushback online, not a lot, but all right, a decent amount of people saying, maybe I'm just nice, Terry, everything about that. Maybe I'm just being kind.

I'm like, here's the thing. If you can't not do it, it's a compulsion. You are not being kind. that person's discomfort is making you uncomfortable. So you want to fix that so you can be comfortable. And that's the truth. At its base, when we talk about any kind of codependency, it's an overt or covert bid or attempt to control someone else's outcome.

And I really feel like we don't talk about that enough when it comes to codependency. People see this weakness or this person who's dependent on other people. That's at least not with high functioning codependency. that's really not it. It's taking on too much. And what is the cost? Exactly what your therapist said, right? You're out of balance. So there's that. But also, you're bitter. You continue this overgiving because there's a certain level of self-sacrificing, self-abandonment. And when you think about why, why are we like this? You have probably seen people posting electrolytes all over social media and thought that maybe it's something that you should incorporate,

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by going to fatty15.com slash well and using the code well at checkout. That was my next question. Why? Why do we care about other people's outcomes? I mean, listen, most of us were raised and praised to be self-abandoning codependence. I mean, we just were. So think about the way you were raised. did you have anyone being like be a good girl most people did turn that frown around if you don't have

anything nice to say don't say anything at all so we were nobody taught us to be like why do you really feel area i'm very interested in you asserting yourself no it was like be good get good grades be a good girl be nice you want people we really cared that people thought about us as nice so then you have the societal pressure of what it means to be a good woman, all the same stuff. So much self-sacrificing. Be discerning. Like, sure, I'd do anything for a whole handful of VIPs in my life. But not anybody, because that doesn't make sense. And that's like people pleasing for the world. That's like making sure everyone else is comfortable, right? That we don't make anybody uncomfortable. But that ultimately is going to be

very uncomfortable for you and what it creates what I've seen over the many years of being a therapist is that there's a glass ceiling of your own making when you're in HFC, a high functioning codependent because a lot of times we're like taking one for the team saying yes when we really want to say no because we want to avoid conflict. Avoid rejection. Yes, avoid a hard conversation. And what happens is your relationships will only be so intimate. There's a glass ceiling there, but also success-wise. And you will only enjoy it so much. So we really have to think about how self-sacrificing we may be to quote-unquote keep the peace.

I want you to ask yourself these two questions, anybody watching, anybody listening. Before you agree to do anything for anybody, you have to ask, can I do this without, becoming resentful. Like, do I have the bandwidth to do this with an open heart? And then the second thing is, do I even fucking want to do it? How about that? Do I even want to? We were talking a little bit before we recorded about some recovery practices. And I've talked about this before, but when I first got sober and I did an inventory and I looked at my resentments, a lot of them were because I was not assertive. And so that caused me to harbor this bitterness and resentment. And I was told like always, if it's something with somebody else, always tell somebody, give them an opportunity to

change. And then if that still continues, then, you know, you can explore this a little bit more. But so many things, even like relationships, I stayed in relationships. I was miserable in for too long. And such an HFC move, by the way. We stay like four years longer than we should because we're like, maybe he's going to change or I'm kind of torn or I'm not sure. Yeah. And they're not a bad person. Listen, you can break up with someone even if they're not a bad person if you're not in love with them. Put them back on a shelf for someone else to enjoy.

That's what someone told me last year. Oh, it's so true though. Yeah. Because you know what? Nobody wants to be in like a pity relationship with you because you're like, I'm sorry for them. That's nobody's dream to be in that kind of a relationship. Yeah. So what are the opposite practices of some of these high functioning codependency habits?

So let's look at the auto advice giving piece. So we talked about that. What can you do instead? Well, you can A, realize that you are not responsible for what other people do. For real. You've got to really get what is your responsibility? What is your side of the street? What is someone else's side of the street? That's a beginning. So instead of auto advice giving,

the first thing you're going to say when anybody comes to you with any problem is, before we even get into it, what do you think you should do? And then just stop, talk and let them talk. Instead of telling you what to do, I'll say, how can I best support you right now? Is there anything I could do that would help? I'm here to listen. We can talk. We can not talk. And it's the same thing with the auto advice giving, learn to ask expansive questions, even with children. Right? It's not about telling them what to do. Motivational interviewing. Yeah, exactly. Expansive questions. Yeah. What do you think you should do? Well, I don't know. Well, if you did know, what would it be? And then what happened? And then what do you think would happen? And then what would

happen? Like, there's a way that we can help people we love get to their own answers because here's the deep down truth. Even when we think, think we know what people should be doing. The truth is we don't. I tell a story in the book about one of my sisters who was in an abusive relationship, literally living in the woods without running water and no electricity with an abusive guy who was doing crack and she was an alcoholic. And I remember going to my therapist and bawling my face off for like the fifth week in

a row or whatever it was. And I was like, what am I going to do? I've done everything. And she was like, Terry, let me ask you this. What makes you think you know, what your sister needs to learn and how she's, you know, what your sister needs to learn and how she's. needs to learn it in this lifetime. And I was like, I don't know, I think we can agree. It's not with a crackhead in the middle of the woods with no running water. And she said, no, I can't agree.

You know why? Because I'm not God. And neither are you. But do you know why you're so distraught about this? And I was like, obviously not. Clue me in. And she said, because you've worked hard to create a harmonious life. And your sister's dumpster fire is messing with your peace. And you want to fix her so that you fix your own pain in the process, which A, was really hard to hear, but I had to admit that my compulsion to, quote, unquote, save my sister was more about me than I would have liked to have think that it was in the past. So I said, well, what do I do? Because I didn't know I had a choice. I thought I was doing the only thing I knew how to do, which is just literally never give up, just keep trying until you can manipulate her to get out of

there. And she said, you need boundaries. And I was in my 20s. at the time. And that was the beginning. And I just was able to say to my sister, hey, I cannot talk to you about this guy. It's so painful and disruptive to my life. And I was just newly married, inherited. I became a bonus mom to three acting out teenage sons. I just became a therapist from being a talent agent. Like, my life was massively busy and crazy and happy. And so I had all this guilt around that too. And my sister understood. She was amazing. And I was like, and I love you. And if you ever want to get out, I will always, always, always be your person. Less than nine months later, she called me.

She was like, are you still my person? I was like, getting in my car, picked her up. She got sober. She went back to school. She left that idiot. She's never been in another abusive relationship, and this was decades ago now at this point. And the most important part of that whole entire story is that instead of me, her youngest sister, being the hero of that story, she got to be the hero of her own story.

And so her sobriety stuck because it wasn't me manipulating her and tricking her and doing whatever. And when we are auto advice giving and saving people, what we're really doing and this was super painful for me to deal with is we are centering ourselves in the middle of their situation as the solution because it's so hard to hang with someone's pain. And yet real love and the real flex is being with someone in the foxhole while they're pain and not fixing them. And you're depriving them of their solution potentially. I went through this with a friend who was engaged to not the right person. Did you say it politely? Yes. And I don't think she listens to my podcast. So I don't think I have to worry too much. But it was really hard for myself and

some other friends. And instead of inserting ourselves, we trusted that she's smart. She has a lot of resources. She has emotional maturity, spiritual maturity. And we were just like, she will get there on her own. And we didn't want to insert ourselves because similar to somebody who's an addict or an alcoholic, you try to come between that thing and your persona non grata. And And conversely, exactly what you're saying, you can let somebody know that you're there if and when they want to talk about it, if and when they want to get help. And then when they're in that spot, they remember that. Like that seed is planted.

And it's so powerful, but it's so hard. So did she leave them? Yeah. Thank God. Yes. Yay. Another success story. Yeah.

And then she didn't resent you. No. Because what happens is when you do get between, try to get between. And especially, really, take your time. If somebody breaks up too. give it a minute before you're like I always hated that person because like two days later they get back and they're like I was going to say yeah I remember what you said yeah he's an asshole and then they don't break up with him and you've always said that now there was there was a real going around

with a guy on speakerphone with his girlfriend they had just gotten engaged and he was like calling his best friends he was like guys Jenny's no longer my girlfriend and the friend on the other end is like I always hated that skank or whatever and he was like she She's my fiance now. And you're on speakerphone. Nightmare. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

I think that's like best practice. It's like just don't. Don't tell somebody how you feel about their significant other because it can change. I was in a relationship like that when it was off and on and off and on forever. And of course, the first thing that you want to do, if you're going through a rough patch or you break up or whatever is you want to go to your friends and vent about it. And it is nice to get that validation sometimes when they're like, yeah. You know, but. Then you go back.

And I'm like, well, I'm the asshole. Yeah. So then I felt a lot of shame with that. I feel like there's a way to do it, though. If I ever really need to say something about someone in their relationship, I'll say, hey, I've noticed something. Can I share it with you? And if they say, yeah, I'll say, when you're with Bob, I don't feel like, I don't know,

I feel like you act differently or you okay. It just feels like you're walking on eggshells in a way that's weird or something. Rather than, I don't make it about Bob. I make it about something I noticed about my friend. if that's the truth. And maybe she'll be open, maybe she won't, but at least I'll know I said something. Yeah, that's a really good way to do that. And I have some friends in my life now that are so good about that. They're like, do you want to know how I see it? Like that kind of thing. I love it. If you've decided you're finally going to get serious about your health, I've got good news and it does not require an injection.

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I wanted to talk to you, you talk in your book, about how codependence and narcissists attract. And I thought that was very interesting. So let's first define like a real narcissist because you also have like these columns where it's like, it can be this, but then also yes. And I think we're so quick nowadays to be like, he's a narcissist. I had Dr. Sarah Kubrick, the millennial therapist on the podcast. And she was like, sometimes they're not a narcissist.

they're just an asshole. So I would love to talk about that because I'm sure that's something that people can relate to as well. If they're like, why do I keep ending up in this relationship with this specific type of person? Yes. Well, let's look at narcissists, right? So narcissists are people who are essentially everything is focused on them and that's the way they want it. Now, if they have narcissistic personality disorder, that's different than having narcissistic tendencies. narcissistic personality disorder, one of the most important distinguishing factors, is that you do not have the ability to have compassion for other people. You don't have empathy for others, like you actually can't.

It's not the way that you're wired. So, and the pain that narcissists cause others, a lot of narcissists depends. There's different types of narcissism. There's a whole bunch of different ways it can come out. more covert, more overt, right? So we think about narcissists and we think of someone who's like, the life of the party is someone who's very charming and good looking and, you know, seducing people left and right with all their charm, right? That's one type, but also bragging, also exaggerating their accomplishments, also telling you all the famous people they know, blah-b-de-blah, right?

So that's what we think of with a narcissist. With a covert, NARC, they present more insecure, but they still have the exact capacity to torture people in their lives than an overt one does. They're just harder, even more insidious because they're harder to put your finger on, where they come off as a little more insecure, but they definitely feel superior to others, and they will in their own quiet way make your life a living hell. Same thing. So why is there a traction between high functioning codependence or codependence and narcissists? Well, the narcissist is like, hey man, it's all about me.

And the HFC is like, hey man, it's all about you. Great. I can't wait to please you. I can't wait to do everything. Because if you are outwardly focused as a codependent, right, we learned to focus on other people and how they feel and what they need and what they want, right? We get really good at that. So you can see how this would be like a hand in glove, right?

Now, as I like to say, it's a match made in heaven until all hell breaks loose because it will. It's literally just a matter of time. because it'll always, and the cycle of abuse is an actual cycle where you have the love bombing phase where, of course, you know, everything is amazing, you're amazing, sex is amazing, they can't wait to whisk you away to Paris or whatever it is, they're giving you gifts. They're doing all this future pacing where they're like, next summer, want to go to Europe? You know what I mean? And you're like, oh my God, we're going to be together next summer. All these ways that they have of like luring you into their web is the way that I view it. And then once you're in, and people,

People know the moment it turns, the first douchey comment, the first comment that's like, oh, are you actually going to wear those pants to the party? Look kind of chubby in them. And you're like, oh, my God, what just happened? And that's the beginning, right? So now the love bombing phase has ended. Now we're moving into the phase where you keep trying to get back in their good races. It's the back and forth, the walking on eggshells, the never knowing what's going to set them off type of thing.

And then usually it'll get to the action. will end. They'll cheat on you. They'll discard you in some way. They'll break up with you. And then eventually try to hover you back, usually. But there's a cycle that happens. And the cycle can be, can happen quickly or can happen over years and months, right? So there's lots of different ways that this disordered relational pattern can show up. But what I do in the book and what I think is really important is that we've got to be aware, especially if you are a codependent, especially if you're an empath. right you've got to be aware don't just listen to what someone says you have to be aware of their behavior what are they actually doing are they following through they hurt your feelings they say

they're sorry but does their behavior change and if the answer is no is they're not sorry they're just they're just going to keep going they're just placating you so i think that any chance you have If you're clear that you're in a relationship with a narcissist, it is literally an eternal lifetime of hell. Like that, that's what it is. And what's sad is that it's not two-dimensional. Because we have actual relationships with narcissists, even if they don't have the capacity to have compassion.

It feels like love, right? It can be great. Narcissists, especially if you have any friends that you know or if you yourself were raised by a narcissistic parent, it's like your friends are all like, oh my God, your mother is so cool. Yeah. Like, you're so lucky.

You're like, my mother, you know, the person who wore white to my wedding, great. Like, never can have it be about you. But that can prime us. Having an adult in your life growing up who's a narcissist can make you very vulnerable to getting involved with one, but also just being a codependent makes you vulnerable to get involved with one because we're the ultimate in a way, people pleasers. And if you're an HFC, you're also so capable.

You know, the irony with high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it's still, I can go dependency. And so we still are suffering in the same way. So I feel like if someone is involved with a narcissist, you've got to be very aware of their manipulation tactics and be honest with yourself.

And don't let them isolate you from the people in your life because they're definitely going to try if they haven't already. I always think it's so interesting that we subconsciously seek out the same dynamics that we had as children. I always thought it would be the opposite. You would seek out something that's going to resolve that trauma or whatever it was. Be the opposite. And yet, it's so innate in us, right, to just repeat these behaviors, these cycles. But Ariel, what you've said is true.

Because here's the thing. I call them repeating relationship realities, right? Like we just find ourselves in the same thing. But what's happening, the way I see it, is that unconsciously, the little kid in us, is looking for a do-over. We're like, this time it's going to be different. This time I'm going to be good enough

or I'm going to be whatever. Without intervention, therapeutic intervention, or something else that gives you the skills to make it different, it likely won't be different. So there's something that we can give listeners, if they want, that where if you find yourself in these repeated situations that you're like, how the hell am I back here? You're going to ask yourself, I call them the three cues for clarity.

They're in the book where the first one is think about that person. Who does this person remind me of? Number two, where have I felt like this before? Number three, why or how is this behavioral dynamic? The way I'm interacting, like seeking the approval of this person who's very withholding, let's just say. How is that familiar? And I guarantee you, you will be able to be like, oh, my God, that's just like the first coach

that I had or it's just like my father or just like my mother. And why does this matter? Because therapeutically, we can only talk things out or act things out. So when we start to recognize, oh, holy crap, I'm acting out this behavior that I saw in childhood. You can actually stop acting it out. You can be like, I'm not my mother. My partner's not my father.

Like I don't need to do it this way. It can be different. But we have to get that information from what I call the basement, right? The unconscious mind and bring it up to the main part of the house. Yeah. And your book is amazing. And I love the stories. I love the practical tips.

I love the loving reminders. I don't want people to be overwhelmed by the subject matter because it's such a easy read, easy applicable read. So I hope everybody listening goes out and gets that. Tell everyone where they can find you and find your book and everything. Sure. Go to HFCbook.com and you can get all the bonuses. And I also have a gift for your audience, whoever, these young folks who are identifying as HFC,

if you need a starter kit, you can go to terrycolle.com forward slash HFC. And I've given you something that you can watch. I've given you two meditations, just kind of a starter kit that will be helpful for you on the beginning of this journey of getting into recovery. And what's interesting, you know, you and I have talked about recovery, but that's what this is, right? There's no curing HFC, but you can get into recovery, just like you can with any other kind of compulsive, addictive behavior.

And your whole life will change when you do. What you want is on the other side of this, which is more joy, more satisfaction, more expansion, more inner peace. that's what's waiting for you on the other side of recovery from HFC. Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that episode.

If you liked the episode and if you liked the show in general, please take a second to rate, review, and subscribe. It goes such a long way in supporting the show. Follow the show over on Instagram at well.pod. You can also follow my personal Instagram at Ariel Lurie. I'm always sharing great clips from the episodes. and we also have full episodes on YouTube as well if you want to watch in entirety. Thanks for listening. You guys, I'm Gabby Wendy, your host of Long Winded.

You may or may not know me emphasis on may not, but I did have 26 boyfriends not too long ago and tragically lost Dancing with the Stars. And now I'm back with a more freeing and liberating platform than ever, which honestly might make you sorry. Anyways, with all of this under my belt, naturally I do have. some shit to say. In my very sweet, soft voice and public school education, I'll discuss girly topics with a bit of cheek. Topics like gaslighting. Die for it. Internalized misogyny. One of my faves, honestly, and the depths of the dark dating world. I will beg you again and again to come and listen, but most of all, I hope you enjoy. Please note that this episode may

contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.