Well with Arielle Lorre - 415: Hair Myths, Hacks, Products to Use & the Truth Behind the Glam with Jen Atkin

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

Jen Atkin is a celebrity hairstylist, founder of the brands OUAI and Mane, co-founder of Highlight Artists, author and BELLAMI Global Brand Ambassador. She joins me for a candid conversation on all things hair, hustling to build a successful career and hard-earned wisdom. Jen opens up about how loss has shaped her life and business, why work ethic and authenticity matter more than ever and how the Kardashians helped put her on the map after years of prioritizing clients over her own life. We get into learning to say no, overcoming perfectionism after growing up in a Mormon household, surviving the LA fires and the beauty hacks she swears by. She also shares the most flattering cuts for every face shape, the truth about extensions, the hair myths she wants us to stop believing and so much more.Go to BellamiHair.com and use code WELL to get 25% off your first clip-in order and book a free consultation.Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.Produced by Dear Media.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Sonderger Go to your Reisadviceor Orsoniccours. The following podcast is A Dear Media Production This is well a podcast about wellness in all its forms. I'm Ariel Lori, and each week I'm sharing unfiltered

conversations with people shaping how we feel, live, and look. Come for the substance, stay for the honesty, and leave with the tools to be well, inside and out. I love today's episode so much, and I know that you are going to also, because I feel like you probably see who my guest is. She really needs no introduction, I'm sure, with my audience especially, but I'm talking to Jen Atkin, who I will get to in a second, and the topic, which is, of course, Hairer. She's an icon in the hair world. And you think that it might just be a beauty, fluffy episode. But going into this episode, I knew one thing about Jen, and it's that she likes to go beneath the surface. So we really delved into not only the hustle and the grind and the work

ethic and the attitude that got her to where she is now when she came from humble beginnings, which she talks about in this episode, but also about what it was like when she kind of reached that mountaintop, so to speak, and realized that she had been at the service of her clients for so long that she really didn't have a life of her own. And she talks about how she didn't even really remember her wedding until she looked at the wedding photos. Like she was just not present because she was always in that work mode. And I think that that's something that a lot of people can relate to. And we also get into how experiencing loss, including the loss of her dad and more recently, the loss of her home and the LA fires changed the way she approaches her business and what she

prioritizes in life. And I just think it's such a refreshing conversation. But if you're worrying that it might be a little heavy, we do get into the beauty, fluffy stuff as well. And it's so fun. There's no better person to talk hair and beauty trends with, in my opinion, than Jen Atkin, because she has a really fun, playful energy. So we talk about hair trends that she wants to see. We talk beauty and hair hacks that she would never skip. We talk hair myths that we should stop believing and so much more. So of course, Jen Atkin is a celebrity hair stylist. She's the founder of the brand's way and Maine. She's the co-founder of highlight artists. She is an author. And she is now the global brand ambassador for Bellamy, which is the amazing hair extension brand that I have in my hair.

She has in her hair. We all have Bellamy. And they were kind enough to give us a major discount for your first clip in order if you want to try, which I think is a great segue into either trying extensions or just have a little more fun and get more creative with your hairstyles, which is something that she wishes. as more people would be doing and she talks about in this episode. So head over to bellamyhair.com and you can use the code well for 25% off your first clip in order. You can also check out their salon locator to book a free consultation with a Bellamy certified stylist to see which Bellamy hair solution is right for you. So whether you're new to extensions are ready to try something more transformative, Bellamy meets you where you are. Please enjoy this episode with Jen Atkin. Welcome.

Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited to talk to you. I think it would be fun today to start with a little this or that. I know that you just got off a plane. Your schedule's crazy. So sometimes I like to just break the ice a little and get into the podcast mode with some fun questions. So good. I'm totally delirious. Okay. Perfect. Dry shampoo or hairspray. Blowout or air dry. Blowout. Scissors or hot tools if you could only pick one. Oh my God. Are you okay? That's great. Crazy. Desert Island. Or hot tools? Mm-hmm. Ooh. Probably, probably hot tools because it means I have electricity on this island. That's actually a really good rationale that I would not have thought of. Classic Bob or, I was going to say beachy waves, but 90s layers since we were talking about it. Ooh, 90s layers. I'm all about it right now. You're hoping that comes back in, right? Yes. I'm like trying really hard to influence everyone. to go back to not only like the 90s layers, but like really cool shortcuts. Like I really miss like the boy cuts, you know?

Yeah, like more personality and the hair and her intention. And there was a shorter length to a bob and you can kind of see the neck and it was just like, I don't know, I feel like everything was tailored to your face. And I think that now everyone just kind of like wearing the same hair. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. I think if anybody can influence it'll be you.

See. I have a kind of a side question about. about that. You hear that like heart-shaped faces should have short hair, right? Or is it the way around? Should it have longer hair? Is that an actual thing? Here's the thing. I think I probably shouldn't have said face shape because I also don't like putting out there that there's like one face shape that's supposed everyone's supposed to have. Or you're supposed to like cater to a certain look. But I think like your schedule and like how much time you'll actually spend doing your hair, I just wish that maybe we'd like pencil in a little bit more time, you know, to like have a style.

Yeah. And like, you know, I wouldn't say like, like, you know, I wouldn't say like, like cut a baby bang, like a Drew Barrymore in 90s, like, you know, short bang. If you don't know how to work with it, it's going to be a disaster for you. But I just wish that people would like experiment more. I think everyone's scared to like, and I think hairstylist too. I feel like we need to be a little bit more aggressive and really like encourage your client to try a different look. So it's not necessarily like the face shape, but I think a lot goes into like the decision

of it. but I just, I wish people would get a little bit more daring. I've been wanting to cut my hair to about here for a long time, but I feel like it would be hard because I would have to style it every day, whereas right now I just kind of like wake up and... But that's what I mean. Yeah. Can we go back to just styling our hair?

Yeah. We take the time to do makeup. Yeah. And I think like as a stylist, I always tried to show, I mean, my hot round brush that we came out with at Maine is flying off the shelf because the purpose of it was to kind of give you the power of manipulating your hair and doing it quickly. So I think that there's like shortcuts that your stylist can, you know, I mean, spoiler or extensions are the best way to also like add some thickness or add some length.

And there's so many things out there now that you can use to get a really cool style quickly. Yeah, we were talking about that brush. It's my favorite thing ever. I do. But to your point about extensions, do you like clip ins or tape ends if you had to pick one? For sure, tape ends. Yeah, they just like lay flatter. You don't even like feel like they're on.

your head. But, you know, Clippins, when I was on set, like, Clippins are great when you need, like a temporary fix. But I just feel like, I like a tapin just because it feels like part of you. Yeah, I've been doing tapins forever. Yeah. I have Bellamy right now. You have Bellamy, right? We all have Bellamy in this room. And you really don't notice them, but I feel like people are sometimes scared to go the tapin route. So I feel like Clippin is a good entry way to getting extensions. Yeah, I feel like the best way to describe it, like, Bellamy, their whole, like, tagline is beautiful extensions of you. And it really does feel like, you know, the way that the hair is treated and colored, like, it perfectly goes in with my hair that I went to Matt Raz

and had, like, perfectly highlighted. And it just, like, fits right in. It really does just feel like an extension of my hair. And it's no one ever, you know, this is a thing. Extensions have come a long way. I think that, like, 20 years ago, we're still thinking about, like, what we were, would see in us weekly of like beads and extensions and seeing it. It comes so far and really are so high quality and Bellamy's like the best at creating different types of extensions that you can put in your hair depending on what you prefer and the color is so good. I just yeah, I think it's super exciting and it gives you just like a freedom of not wearing your hair in a ponytail every day. Actually like wearing it down and feeling good about how it looks. It's like

the ultimate high maintenance to be low maintenance. which I love. Yeah. Like give me all the things that I only have to do once and then I don't have to think about it for like months. Also like let's talk about this. Like if you're scared or your hair is like fried, you can put in that color and get the color that you really want without even touching your actual hair. Oh yeah.

That's like one of the best parts about it too. Yeah. I had very short sides. Like it was giving mullet a couple months ago. It was very short in the front and everyone said, well, you have to cut it into a bob. And I was like, no. I don't accept that. cut it into a bob. Yeah, no. We have to kill that. That concept is like you have to cut it into a bob. No, you don't. Like get some hair, put it in really quickly and like live your best life. Yeah, I love it. Okay. Well, I want to rewind a little bit and talk about your story. I was telling you before we started recording that I recorded with Anastasia Choirie this morning. The Queen. And she has an amazing story, but we were talking about your trajectory as well. I mean, you have been the ultimate hustler. I've been listening to so many podcasts and interviews with you.

leading up to this. And your story is amazing. And there are a few things that I really want to dig into today. One though is you've had this amazing trajectory. You have so many successful brands. You are like a household name when it comes to hair. Oh my God. So many endeavors. But you've also been really open about things like loss, you know, from your dog to your dad to more recently the fires. And I'm wondering how, I guess if or how that's affected how you approach your life and your business now. So crazy that you say that. I was actually in a social meeting going over my own personal social with my social media manager. Because we have people obviously for the brands, but for my own, I have somebody who helps me kind of like curate it and put it together and reminds me to post.

And we were looking at some of the stats over the past year. and she's like, yeah, so I kind of was looking and it feels like everyone really likes it when you have tragedy. I was like, what? Oh, God. He was like, they're the highest performing post. Oh, my God. Okay. Well, that doesn't surprise me though. No, but I really, it comes down to like, that was support, you know, those people supporting and people like showing me that they like saw and that they care and just like giving good, you know, words of support. And, but I was just like, wow, at least something good came out of all of it. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've always treated Instagram I dance like no one's watching. And I always love the concept of being able to really like share

my story because I never would have imagined that my life would have led to where I am today and the things I've gotten to do. And it went from, you know, doing hair in the salon was so exciting. And then going on Madonna's tour and traveling the world at 26. I'm like, this is, this is it for me. And then I just kept kind of dreaming and putting goals on my board of wanting to go to Paris and do the shows. And I got to work with John Gagliano and be in rooms backstage with Kate Moss and Anna Wintour. And that was my like double-wors product. And then I'd come back to L.A. And I'm like, okay, I'm done.

And then it was like next thing you know, I was working, Sophia Vergara was one of my first celebrity clients when her show first came out. And then that trickled into me meeting Kim Kardashian and her sisters. And I just found myself in this, like, I don't know how I have managed to always end up in some really lucky situations. I talk a lot about this with like Mario, makeup by Mario and Mary Phillips and I are really close. And we all started out around the same time. And I think the biggest thing is work ethic has been my best friend. You know, I've always, back before a hairstylist were ever like a name, you know, we really were about like just being there for your client. And I think for me, sharing the highs and the lows have, it's just been really important to me because I want to paint an honest picture of what my life is and let people know that we all go through the same things.

We're all suffering the same things. We have wins. We have losses. And, you know, I just try to encourage, but also let people know. that I go through hard things as well and try to, you know, share all of it. I've heard you talk about being raised in the Mormon religion. Before the TikTok show. Yeah.

When it wasn't cool. You were an OG Mormon. Right? I was an original tribe mom. But you've talked about the principle of service and how that has kind of played into your career. And I think it's probably contributed to your lack of ego. you've been at the service of your clients, but as you're speaking, you do that for your community,

too. You do that for your audience, you know. So I think that that's such an important thing to do for people, especially now when we're seeing everybody's like highlights and everything to show the reality and to share your tragedy. Like that is a service to people who are going through similar things. I also feel like, you know, I have a really close group of girlfriends and we all kind of are starting businesses and families and are in the same world. And we also are all very vocal on social media. And one of the girls this morning just said, I just want to say, I appreciate this chat so much. And the fact that, like, you guys are all so honest and so real. And I know I can trust you guys and no one's changed over the years. And that's something I think also, because social

media was so, like, I look back at the original, like, first two years of Instagram and I'm like, oh my God, bless us. We were so, like, innocent. And just like, hosting a rainbow in Hawaii. With like a sepia filter. A hundred percent, that ugly border. Yeah. And I feel like then it became so glossy and so filtered. And I feel like that's kind of going away a bit. But I, I don't know. There's something I, I appreciate about like the people that I follow that I know are just like really honest and the overused word of authenticity. But it really does like mean a lot now. Yeah. And I think it's harder and harder to find. And I think that hopefully, to your point, the pendulum is swinging a little bit back away from that super glossy.

Yeah. Not so authentic. I think in this like world of AI right now. Oh my God. And like the more we're going to see of AI, I think that like we're going to really start to appreciate the like low brow like realness of things. Yeah. It's funny because I just did a whole rebrand with my other brand main. And I had my 13 year old niece come in and draw our logo.

I had a bunch of my nieces like, I was just like play around. what would you do? And I was just looking at all of the stuff and I'm like, this is it. This is like, it's so human. Yeah. And it's been so well received. I'm so happy about that. Because I just, I love anything. Like I grew up with like Stusi. Yeah. Oh my God. The best. And it's still around. Yeah. I know. It's crazy. Because it's just like you just feel like it's so that hand drawn logo. And it's just like cool and you're part of a community and it's, yeah. Yeah. But I hope we see more of that. Yeah, I think the AI of it all, too, is like the most terrifying thing. I just won a lawsuit against a company who made a deep fake of mine. Yeah. I saw that. But it's, you won the lawsuit.

I won by default. By the way, you were in my girl group chat. We were all so upset about that for you. Thank you. I was crazy. Yeah, it was crazy, but it's happening to so many people. And it was like trying to deal with that one, it's whackamol. A million other ones pop up. And I don't know how they're going to regulate that. That's a totally different conversation. but I do agree with you and I think that people are going to be craving reality. Yeah. Really. Which is like, I don't know.

It's so crazy that we're at this point. Yeah. But I think like it's good that we're all talking about it and we're aware of it. Yeah. You know, and I feel like the youth always holds a mirror up and makes everybody like, you know, be honest about things. True. They're not, they're so smart. Oh my God.

Kids are so smart. Yeah. I like I'm not worried about what's going on right now because I feel like I'm the youth. inspires me so much. They're so smart. No one's going through like awkward phases anymore. I mean, I look at people. I'm like, I don't know if you're 25 or 15, but they're like beautiful. And no, I'm like embarrassed. I look back at my old pictures and I know that you've shared some of yours. I'm like, oh my God, but we had blinders on. You know, we didn't have social media. I didn't have social media growing up. We didn't have cell phones. I didn't know. Like we would go to parties,

take the pictures with the disposable camera, go get it developed. at CVS and like that was that. So many dumb pictures, so many bad pictures that we'd hold on to. And then we would like post everything. Yeah. To Facebook. Like the whole night. That was the best. That's so funny. Okay. So I want to go back a little bit. You mentioned you were like going to Paris and I heard you in other interviews saying that you would give names of people who you saw were going to be there. Yeah. I think that that grind is so inspiring, especially now because we do have social media and it's a different kind of pipeline or a trajectory that people follow to success. But you really had grit and perseverance, which I think are so necessary and critical if people want to succeed. So can you

talk about what was driving you at that time? Oh my God. So I would say when you have nothing to lose, it pushes you because you have nothing to lose. Like when I moved to L.A. with my best friend, we were so Romney and Michelle, we had no money. We knew no one. we had nothing to lose and it just felt like so much to gain, you know. And I've always kind of had that in the back of my mind, even when I started businesses. Like my first business was way and I felt in my soul, I knew what I was doing. I knew I had put in, I just read that book, I think it's called mastery, but it talks about just the amount of hours that you have to put into something to really be a master of something. And I felt so confident in what I was doing. And so,

I am kind of of the mindset I work my butt off and I like get obsessed like obsessed to the point where it's like all I can think about. And and then I just go to the next whatever, you know, my heart is telling me I need to do. And yeah, so for a way, I just, I knew the timing was right. I knew I was ready. I got turned away by a competitor who had offered me my own brand under there. their brand and I told them my idea and I was told you're not famous enough it's way too early and Instagram was maybe two years old at the time it was 2014 and I was literally like oh Chloe Kardashian was with me and I had the call so excited about the opportunity and I was on a set

and I'll never forget I had on speaker and she was like I cannot believe how they're talking to me This is so rude. I didn't hang up, but I ended up being their competitor and doing really well and being in retail where they weren't and, you know, that drove me. But anyways, I just, yeah, I feel like I am of the mindset of like just really like studying and working hard and like keeping my head down and then taking the next step when I feel fully ready. What's been the most meaningful part of your career if you could think of anything that's to my head. It's the team that I've worked with for 10 years. Like I could cry talking about it. I've seen them all grow from interns to junior level hires to Hannah Bills. It was our junior

level marketing hire. She's now CEO of Way. And, you know, like, I think just watching the opportunities that have come to everyone, it's been so wonderful for me to like grow with them. and still like we like text our text threads are like so mushy but it's true we're so proud of all of us are so proud of each other because we've all shown up we're a team we've all shown up to like get the brand to where it is and you know i have main's been out for a year and a half so we're still building and it's like we're finding our rhythm but like you can clock who you're you know like you can like it's weird like i drive my team crazy but we all like love each other but it's really you know, I have to say the thing that makes me sad is when we've had team members who just like,

you know, there wasn't room for them to get into a higher role. And so they've gone to other brands. And like the work culture that I hear about makes me so sad because it's just so discouraging and work doesn't need to be stressful. It doesn't need to be like awful. Like we weren't put on this planet to work and you know what I mean like it's a part of our life but even as a founder I try to remind the team I'm like we're not saving lives we are so lucky to be able to do what we do we're so lucky to do it this day and age can you imagine trying to market products in like the 70s no get it or try and have opportunity when it was such a closed community so I just feel like we're all so lucky and I get so excited every day to do what I do

So it sounds like you don't see the saturation of the industry as a problem to overcome? So here's a little exclusive for you. I actually, I'm just sitting here in my mind being like, can I get sued for saying? We can always cut it. But no, I actually, I sit on the phone and mentor a lot of people who are competitors, like female founders in my space, who I want them to win. And the reason I want them to win is because I've been from A to Z with a company. and I know how many hurdles you have to get over.

And I want them to win because, A, this whole space won't change. And the people at the top, people who like buy companies, the people who are the CEOs of a lot of companies, like, none of that's going to change unless all of our like tides rise together. And I like get bummed out when, you know, I'm mentoring them. They're telling me like these things that they have to go through. And it's so hard. It's so hard. It's like you have to have great leadership at your company. You have to have money. You have to have people who believe in you. You have to believe in yourself so much. You have to show up even when you don't want to. And then it's like you need to like make product that's going to hit and you have to have an ops person who's leading it all. And there's so many things that go into it. And, you know, I think what I learned the first time around, I try to help skip the line for them. And I give, I give out all of my vendors. I give out all the creative companies that I think are great. PR teams to so many different founders because I really like I want what happened to me to happen to them. I don't see it as competitive. And I also think like not everyone's going to make it and that's

okay too. Like I don't want to promote the pressure either, you know, but I don't want people to feel like they can't do it because I feel like they can and I just want more female founders to win. I mean, I feel like that's good karma. I feel like having that attitude will only bring you more abundance, you know, and then you see people that have a different approach. And it's like you're constantly like coming up against things. If you are just, you just have that super competitive, like in it for yourself kind of mindset. I mean, I got to start my business with the Kardashians when their like fame was really, really rising. And they were the first to ever tag their glam teams, like ever. Yeah. And that helped my career so much. And they didn't have to do that. And I think about

that all the time. And I think about like the good, I will write Christianer all the time and just say like, send her a picture of like the kids at the house. And I'm just like, I have such a blessed life because of the opportunities that you guys have shared with the people in your life. And that is what it's about for me. And I hope to just be able to do that for other people too. Truly. Like, and I had mentors like Anastasia, Bobby Brown, Sonia Kishuk. I got to call these women, didn't even know them. And I was this loud mouth hair stylist. in L.A. that was like really active on Instagram. And they helped me so much and didn't have to do that. So I just, you know, again, I think that like that's what we're here to do to help each other.

It's like so cheesy and overused, but what is it, collaboration over competition. Yeah. Is there a moment that you can think back to where you felt like you had actually made it? I think like, yes, like the movie moments that come to mind, like I got to work with Cindy Crawford, who is such an icon. I got to do Gwen Stefani for the cover of Bow going on. Madonna's tour was incredible. I haven't got to do Shadeh. She's the last on my list. Oh my God.

I just want to do that one time. It'll happen. Manifesting for you. But to be honest, like I'm really bad about even, I was so bad at the height of my career of like travel. I was like traveling the world like eight times a year. And I was so bad about being present because I just had to be prepared for the next person, the next job and like show up and be prepared.

So I. actually have to look at photos to like actually remember all of the great moments. But when I do that, I'm also like, what? When I wrote my book, I remember going through the photos. It was actually during COVID. And I got a moment to sit and reflect and I'm like, how the hell did a Hawaii public school like from St. George, Utah, like how did I end up in these places? I still can't believe it. It's like watching somebody else's life almost. Yeah. Like I still can't believe it. It feels like a movie at time. I've heard you talk about Hoffman and that was really profound for you. And I think you were talking to Kat Sadler, who I love. And you were talking about having this moment where you

realized the success that you had had, right? And maybe you didn't feel exactly like you reached the top of the mountain, but you were able to recognize your success. I've heard this happen to a lot of successful people where you think that you would reach that point and be like, okay, I did it. And and you get there and it's completely different than you would have imagined. And it sounded like that experience for you kind of changed your priorities a little bit where you were like, okay, I need to like put the phone down sometimes, you know, get outside, like be with my family. Can you talk about that a little bit? Oh my God. I needed to hear you say that right now. I still fall back into, you know, for Hoffman, the biggest thing for me was it taught me kind of the

patterns of my parents that I picked up. And I was just getting to a point where I was like you said, I was working with like Dyson at the time. And my hair care brand was doing really well. I was working with the best of the best people. And I was just depleted, exhausted, and I realized I don't know how to take care of myself. And where am I getting validation from my life? And so Hoffman really helped me to like give them my phone, be with my thoughts, the outside, touch grass, and think about what, to be honest, to go back and think about

who I was before I moved to L.A. And I didn't want to be a young wife. I didn't want to be a part of the Mormon church. I didn't want that like life that was already laid out for me. I wanted to pursue a career. And then once I got there, I was like, wow, I've missed so many birthdays, so many baby showers. I've missed weddings. I have been so of service to my clients that I forgot to have a life.

And that really, I got married. I barely remembered it. You know, like my husband, God bless them. Like we were apart for so much of like the first five or six years of our relationship. And he asked me to marry him. And I was like, wait, what? I, you know, it was not in the moment. I was just so depleted.

And so when I went, I realized, I'm like, God, I grew up with a working mom. And I watched her give her all to her kids and her work. And I completely mimic that. And I also watched her not take care of herself. And so I really wanted to kind of get ahead of that and just, realize like and talk to like the little me and say like it's okay you're safe you know like I've always been scared of being poor because I saw my family struggle with money and my extended family and it really scared me and so for me I had to be like you know what I need to work love work

I'm safe I'm okay I don't need to like overextend myself and I need to put my oxygen mask on and I did that and I actually came out of Hoffman and I did not want to have kids my husband I was like, it's not going to happen. And I came home and I was like, we have to have kids. Really? What? Oh, wow. Yeah. And like, I deserve to have this experience. I deserve the love. Like I, you know, and I am exhausted from the kids. Yeah. No, but I, you know, I just like gave myself the permission to actually like have a life and say no to things. And realize that by saying no, it's okay, you know, because like I had always gotten the next step because I said yes and did everything. and took care of everybody.

And I was just miserable. So I think like it's important to be honest with yourself and also know that like if you say no to something, something else is going to come along and it's okay. You have to take care of yourself. Yeah. Well, I feel like we all have different core wounds and four fears and security. It's a huge one, I think, for a lot of us. Yeah.

And so I think that those fears really drive our actions, you know, and like drive not being able to say no. always saying yes to the next thing because what if another thing doesn't come along in this kind of scarcity mindset which is understandable but at the same time like if you're not cognizant of it like it will burn you out i remember calling my grandparents on the first few jobs i got that were like good paying jobs and being like grandma i can't believe it like i'm getting paid my mom would always call me the golden globes i remember she'd be like so wait honey i don't get it they're paying you to do their hair for these events and i was like yes this is a job yeah

For like five years, it was this conversation. But I remember just thinking like, God, I'm so, I don't want to be ungrateful. So it was coming from a place also of like, I don't want to be ungrateful to the universe for these opportunities. And I just felt like I always had to say yes. And I really learned that like by scaling that back and just, you know, like kind of giving to different sectors of my life, I felt more fulfilled. And as a mom, I have to tell you, I struggle now because that little bit. I was giving to myself is now given to the kids. So you saying that is just reminding me that like I've got to figure out, it's just like shuffling things around a bit so that I can get some

alone time and actually just take care of myself. Yeah, my therapist and I were having this conversation about allocating your water. So people think, especially in relationships like, oh, the grass is greener, you know, somewhere else. And we always hear the grass is greener where you water it. And my therapist was saying, but you don't have an infinite amount of water like you have to take water from somewhere else yeah to water whatever it is that you feel it's deficient yeah whether that's your relationship with your kids or whether it's your business or your relationship with your partner your family or yourself whatever it is and I think that what so many of us try to do is just keep pouring and pouring and pouring and pouring from the cup

the same cup and you know again it's like we just get back into that same place so can I tell you my biggest battle and hurdle of life is perfectionism. And Hoffman really helped teach me. I walked in there and I was like, I have this business thing that's gone awry and I'm so upset and I've never been angry in my life. I never from like fear or anger. How do I shake this? They're like, let's talk about your mom and dad. I was like, no, they're fine. I grew up Mormon. Like picture perfect. Never like, no, no, no, that. And I was like, well, no, everything was perfect. And I kept describing my childhood and he was like, you've said perfect 20 times. Wow. And I was like, oh my God. And I realized, like I was raised in a culture of perfectionism. And so that's something I really have to battle.

And like even as a mom, as a boss, as a human being, I just, I have to learn that like the perfectionism isn't sustainable. And I can't, you know, put that pressure anything Instagram is something we have to be really careful with. Yeah. You know? Because I think like we're seeing so much of the highlights and perfectionism. And I think it's really messing with people's psyche. So if you're just turn this podcast off and touch grass and then come back. Well, no, you can listen to it. But don't watch it.

You can touch grass and listen to the podcast. I struggle with that too, perfectionism and people pleasing. Yeah. And I'm sober. I've been sober for almost 12 years. Oh, good for you. Thank you. Oh, can I just say really quickly?

Yeah. I was sober for three and a half years. That's amazing. And nothing, nothing is better than waking up feeling good. Yeah. And I had, and I literally like, I just quit because I was tired and I felt like, oh, my God, I'm getting older. And nobody that I know that's in their mid-40s and 50s looks good when they were drinking a lot. Just facts, sorry.

And my assistant said to me, she goes, you know, it's like stealing tomorrow's happiness. I was happiness. And I was like, wow. Oh my God. And like it made me stop. And now I'm like a Hugo spritz here and there. But nothing felt better. Yeah. And like showing up also with confidence and not needing to rely on something was so freeing. Yeah. I'm going to get back to it. That's been the big thing for me. I mean, I'm like no judgment, you know, whatever anybody does. And I always say like if I could drink and like not end up in like Tijuana for four days, then I would, you know, like everything in moderation. Yeah. But no, it's been amazing for me. But I've had to, you know, uncover a lot of the reasons why I was drinking.

I wasn't just drinking to excess because, I mean, I nearly died, you know? And I was having seizures all the time in and out of hospitals. And when you take the alcohol away, it's like, okay, I'm still left with me. Like, what is driving that? So I've had to look at a lot of things. And I also, like I said, struggle with like perfectionism, people pleasing. And somebody really close to me in recovery was like, well, that's just lying like that's just another form of dishonesty and I was like oh that's so when you put

it that way like I had never thought about it like that you know if you're people pleasing if you're trying to put on whatever mask it is or you're trying to do everything perfect it's a form of protection like a self-destructive form of protection but maybe you're also cheating yourself of getting to know you yeah it's so yeah it's so complicated but also that book quit like a woman for me was just like, oh, Holly. Oh, Holly Whitaker. I couldn't put it down. I was like, oh, my God.

And I feel the same way about like, when my friends get really down about the news and like we're sharing information, we're inundated with it. I'm like, guys, please don't forget, this is all a business. All the things you're clicking on leads to advertising. It's all a business. And it's the same thing with alcohol. It's all a business. Yeah.

So I feel like for me it's helpful to kind of like keep that in the back of my mind. Yeah, like they want you to be. Yeah, it's a business. Although I do feel like I missed out on all the fun stuff. I'm like, I never got to have the Hugo Spritzes or like the white claws or anything. I got sober at 28. And at the time, like nobody was sober. And you had sober at 28.

You had fun. Oh, my God. No, I think it's like 21 to 25 is a sweet spot for all that. Yeah. Yeah. You're so smart to get your shit together at a certain age. I mean, it wasn't by choice. It was very much life or death situation.

Yeah, but that's a choice. You made a choice. Yeah. I mean, initially it was made for me and then I accepted. Okay. Well, you have got, you've made the choice to get, you said 12 years? Almost 12, yeah. Oh my God.

Yeah. You've made the choice to get that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So this has been a big year for you. We kind of touched on it in the beginning, but with the fires and everything and some new business ventures, how do you feel about,

where you are now compared to maybe this time last year? This time last year. Interesting. I was just thinking about this at the night and talking to my husband and, you know, my son's preschool burned. My father-in-law, who's 86, his house burned. And a lot of it was like just such a collective trauma and seeing experiencing, you know, horrific things. Like our neighbor, some of them didn't get to get up to our neighborhood to get their dogs out. And, And like, we were all there for one another. And like, I was in this moment of, I was so upset about political things. And then coming into the air, I was like, you know what?

I'm going to just, I got to be there for my business. It was my first day back. It was in the office. Perfect view of palisades. And the smoke started getting bigger, bigger, bigger. And, like, still, it's like there's no way it's going to make it to Malibu. Yeah. The weirdest thing about it is that was.

in January. So we're now about nine months out of it. I feel like my husband and I were in such fight or flight and taking care of our community and his father and like just like morning as a community together. And it felt unbelievable, right? I think it's just hitting me. It's the weirdest thing. I feel like we've just been in survival mode. You know, work has been a great distraction for me. everything at Maine is so like light and fluffy and pink and happy and the office literally looks like hello Katie came and threw up. I mean it's so nostalgic. But I need it. Yeah. It's saving me. You know? And like that girlhood, that feeling of like before we had Instagram or before we like doom scrolled and we were just so excited about like our backpack at school. Yeah. Tapper keepers.

Do you have those? Yes. And our and our like shows to watch. You know, and our books to read. Like I just needed that. So I have that that's been a distraction and with way it's been so amazing because like we're taking you on vacation. We've been St. Bart's and like everything is just like been saving me. And now I'm starting to look at photos and like really I think it's sinking in that I've been to the property we had it cleared out but I feel very lucky. I feel lucky and I feel like we have found a great home in Seattle. My kids have safety. They're in a great routine. We have settled really well. And I'm proud of us. I'm really proud of my husband and I for going through something that was so

scary. And, you know, like, I'm really proud of us. But I also am allowing myself now to get into the feeling and like feel the loss. And so, you know, you'll probably see a post about it soon. I feel like I'm getting there. I'm getting there and I'm ready to like let myself feel my own individual loss and our loss of our things and our home. And it's just been so heavy for everybody. Yeah. And to be honest, I feel horrible for the families that their homes are still standing and the neighbors' homes are all gone. It's just, it's been such a really like a heavy year.

But I will tell you this. The thing that I, and I speak about that's a lot on Instagram, the thing that I needed to be reminded of in that moment was community. And there was the Watch Duty app we were all collectively on. We were listening to like the radio. I remember listening to AM radio to get updates during that time. It taught me that like we are not because we live in L.A., it doesn't mean that we're immune from like these things happening to us. You know, like we hear about this stuff a lot.

And I've heard about fires in L.A. I've never experienced it in the 25 years I've been here. But it made me just feel like we need to all be prepared and we need to know who our neighbors are. Yeah. And that's the number one thing. thing. Like this was the first time in LA where we knew our neighbors really well. We were a community and we were on a WhatsApp and everyone was checking in on one another. At the time, my husband was walking door to door with another neighbor just to make sure everyone could get out safely. And everyone just

took care of one another. So at a time when I felt kind of like, who can you trust? What world are we living in? I was reminded that like we have each other's back. And if something were to happen, in that moment, we all felt so collectively there for one another and everyone showed up, you know, and took care of one another. And that, to me, was the biggest, the blessing in all of it. So long-witted answer, but, like, we're okay. It was, yeah, we're okay.

We're okay. But it also gave me so much. Everything, every time. I lost a dog to a coyote. I sound like a country song. I lost a dog to a coyote, lost my father, lost a home to a fire. and I have so much empathy when I see natural disasters happening.

Like, you know, I try to do what I can to show up. And can I be honest, the GoFundMe's all the different ways that we have to show up and help people, even all the things that are going on in L.A. right now, like, people are taking care of one another. And that doesn't go away. Yeah. It reminds me of this quote from a therapist that I had on my show like years ago, but it really stuck with me. And it was that, you know, we have these things that we think, oh my God, if that happened, like I could never go through that.

And she said, you meet the version of yourself who can go through that thing when that happens. So you have to trust your, but a different version of you shows up. But the fact that you're feeling it now kind of makes sense because I feel like it was a collective trauma. And then it's such an individual trauma that I can't imagine to lose everything to go through that. And I'm sure that something does happen on a protective, self-protective level where you just go into whatever mode you go into so that you can be methodical and go through the next thing and help other people and get your family safe. And then, like, now that you guys are nine months out and you're kind of settled in another place, your body and your mind are safe enough now that now it can come up and now you can deal with it. A hundred percent. Someone the other day said you need to read, the body keeps the score. Yes. Oh my God.

My husband had weird, like, rashes. Like, his face had, like, a weird rash. And he, like, physically, it's, like, manifesting for him. Yeah. And I, yeah, I need to read that. I have it. I haven't read it yet. I truly believe that that stuff manifests, like, even years later.

Yeah. Down the road, so. Yeah, I have to say, like, the weirdest thing is this. You work so hard as a woman to curate your closet. And I had things I've collected over so many years. And it was like the thing, and I clean out a lot. But it was like the thing. like the nice things and I felt like, you know, I'm in my, you know, early 40s. Now I have like

the perfect closet and the perfect house. And to lose it, like I did not care about one thing it was in my closet. All I cared about was my grandma's jewelry. I cared about a letter my dad wrote me some stuff that Virgil LaBlow had left and like handwritten things from him and like sentimental things that I already had in a firebox. So that's my biggest tip. Yeah, I've heard you talk about this. But also, you guys, even if nothing is happening right now and you're area, just periodically go through and videotape and take pictures of your closet and your home and the things that are in it for insurance purposes because I did that religiously like every six months.

Wow. I know. And it was so helpful to have. But also just have a plan. Like have a box of the things you can grab quickly if you ever need to and just be prepared. And, you know, again, get to know your neighbors. I think we need that more than anything. Yeah.

I think we all just need to like get out more and talk to people. Yeah. And be really nice to joy. designers, hair stylists, and make them your best friends. Yeah. And just know your neighbors. Yeah. And everybody I know for sure is going to their closet and videoing everything. And I actually never did that until the fires started. I did all that. Terrifying. Just talking about it, I have to like remind myself like really thinking about it. It was just that day was so crazy for all of us. The whole city was on fire. It was crazy. I lived in the palisades for eight years with my

ex and we lived on a mall feast. So like overlooking Will Rogers. And we had seen some smaller fires before. We also lived in Malibu. We had a house there and we were evacuated for the Woolsey Fire. Yeah. I've given up on the Malibu dream. Yeah. I have a friend, super inspiring woman, but she and her husband lost their home in the Woolsey fire, bought a house in the Palisades, spent a couple years remodeling the house in the palisades. The house in the palisades burnt down.

I mean, what do you do at that point? And she has the best attitude. It's very inspiring. Can I just please, anybody that's in L.L. who is in Altadina, Palisades, Malibu, please check on the older people. Just check on them because that's the biggest heartbreak to me.

The ones who like didn't get to take things that meant so much to them or raised kids in those homes. Like I can't even imagine. I know. And it's just like at that age, you don't imagine to go through things like that. It's just so tough. But yeah,

I remember texting my ex and he showed me the smoke coming over Will Rogers. And I didn't think anything of it. Yeah. You know, we were like, oh, we've seen this before. I don't think anybody. I've imagined. No. We're not exempt.

And by the way, if you go to the Watch Duty app, I do it periodically. There's so many places and so many people like just, yeah, it's, just be prepared. Yeah. Our app went off recently. And I mean, it was like trauma response. And we didn't even lose anything, but just everybody. It was again, that collective trauma. I hope that Watch Duty got like a time magazine.

I don't know. I was glued to that. I was like, why is this helicopter there when the reservoir is over here and they need to go, Like, okay, well, not to completely take a left turn, but we can go back to some trend and beauty questions to close out. Are there any beauty or hair trends you secretly think look better on Instagram than they do in real life? Hair trends that look better on Instagram than they do in real life. You know what's so hard for me is like, what's the hair trend? You know what I mean?

Yeah. Like I've been going through a lot of vintage magazines and like seeing the pages of like trends when you're, you would go to a magazine to see what everyone's doing. And now I feel like things are moving so quickly. And I don't even know. Like, I couldn't name. I feel like in makeup it happens where there's this trend everybody gets into. Yeah.

But I feel like with hair, it's so personal that I couldn't tell you. I mean, we have like, there's shortcuts. There's long hair. But I don't necessarily think of like things that are super trending. Yeah. Which is such a boring answer. That's okay. Yeah.

I mean, and also there's kind of a different. trend. I'm using quotes for people not watching every week. And it's like the soft suede blonde, the teddy bear this. Yeah. Everything has a name. Yeah. Follyage. Like all of it. Yeah. I can't think of anything that like I'm offended by when I see on the streets. Well, I have a kind of flip side question to that, which is, is there a trend you think deserves more love than their real world? Still no trends. I know. I'm like, wait, you just answer. Okay. Here is something that I want to start getting trending. I would love to see, okay, we talked a little bit about this, but I would love to see women really like play with their hair a little bit more and like play with different

color tones and different lengths and like going back to all the things that I love. So the main hot round brush is so exciting to me to see people be able to actually do their hair and like make it look like it was a really pretty blowout on their own. If something else coming out for, I can't say too much, but it's coming out. It's in that family. It's what you just saw. And that's going to be a game changer. And then as far as like product with, with way,

I've tried really hard to like give you things that make you feel like escapism. Makes you feel like maybe you are not going to St. bars, but we're bringing it to you and you're just going to feel good and smell good. And we have a really incredible product that's coming out to make your hair really soft is what I can tell you. And then with the extensions and Bellamy, it's been really fun for me to be able to show. Honestly, this is what it is. when you're a hairdresser, you really choose that profession because it's all about like, we're

therapists. We're there to make someone who's not feeling so good and not feeling good about themselves because that's when you make the appointment, right, when you're like, I need to pick me up. I need somebody to go and like make me feel good again, whether it's color or a cut. And I really love being able to like give that to individuals and like let them do it on their own. And so that's what's so fun about extensions too is I feel like you can like play around with length, thickness. you might feel like your postpartum loss and you just like want that like thick hair around your face again. Instead of cutting your hair short like every single postpartum mom does, you can actually like add a little bit of hair, take your extensions into your hair stylist and have them like blend it

and then put it in. So it perfectly matches your haircut. And I feel like, you know, get some extensions and try to cut bangs and see how you feel about it. So that's what like my, I think everything that I do really is about like making things easy and making things fun and things that smell really good. That's like what I want to do is make you feel better. Yeah. Smell good and be able to do your hair on your own. I love it. And I love that st.

barred smell. It's so good. If you only had five minutes to get ready, what's the beauty hack you would never skip? So my beauty hack I would never skip is what I didn't skip today and like putting in extensions in the front because I just felt like I wanted to have fullness and cut a little bit of layers and just do something that was really like really cute on camera. I love your hair right now. And I'm looking at the screen behind you.

It looks so good on camera. Really? And it looks natural. I don't even know that you had extensions. So I can post it. We'll do pictures after. Okay. A couple more.

Do you have a go-to weird beauty and or a hair hack that you swear by? My hair hack that I swear by, I've talked about it for probably 10 years now. I love shampooing your hair at the scalp with something different than the ends. Like something super hydrating on the ends and something super good. clarifying like detox shampoo at the root and it just helps you to really like balance out your hair for a couple more days. Okay. And then also hair oil.

I feel like we don't talk about it enough. And I think like if your hair is feeling dry, you need to just put oil in it. We like put lotion on, but we don't think about your hair. I have a question about this because I've been seeing this a lot on TikTok. Does hair oil, I know that there are different kinds, but people are saying that if you put hair oil on before you style that you're just frying your hair. Can we debunk this or? I need to get more context here.

Are you putting on wet hair or dry hair? Oil and dry hair to style it with hot tools, you mean? Yes. Yeah, I don't know why you would do it in that order. I normally do like the hot tools and then the oil afterwards. Okay. I don't, you don't need to like add the moisture. Or like next day hair.

Say that you used oil to style and then the next day you're like, oh, I want to go in and I want to restile my hair. Is that like a big no-no? No. That's like my whole like goal in life is to let you like get out of the door quickly. Yeah. And like freshen up with like a dry shampoo and like extensions are easy for you to like get a quick pick me up and the hot round brush. Like all those things are made to like just touch up hair that's like a couple of days old. Okay.

I keep seeing the oil is fry and I'm like, oh my God. Well, I understand why they're saying that. Like you don't necessarily want to do. Oh my God. Like I sent a hot round brush to a client and she's like, I don't understand. And she thought it was a blow dry brush. So on wet hair. And I was like, no, no, no, no.

This is when your hair is dry. Yeah. Style and smooth. Got it. But yeah. So oil, you wouldn't need to do that beforehand. But can I tell you my other biggest thing? You have to use heat protectant.

Yeah. I love a good heat protectant spray. We have one at Maine. Like, for using any sort of hot tools, it's just really, really good to have that like barrier of protection. Okay. Last question. Sorry, it's tiny.

Oh, my God. This would buy so fast. I know. What is a small, unexpected change? you've made in your own beauty routine that's enhanced your life or your skin or whatever. Mary Phillips lip liner, MPH Beauty. I have her the overliner underpainting thing. Did you?

I don't even know how to use it and I'm obsessed with it. I mean, she has a whole like tutorial. No, but I mean when I got it, I was never like, I never contoured or underpainted or anything. Did you underpaint today? Yeah, but then I had to like touch up and I kind of went over it because I didn't bring it. But yes. I mean, it's so, it's so easy and intuitive. So easy.

And like, it's so fun for me to see everybody. like understand like Mary's technique and why she's like the queen of the underpainting and just like skin but her overliner lip pencil has changed my life. You have it on now? Yeah, but also like Mary taught me years ago about like kind of going just above your lip line and it changes like your whole face. Yeah, it looks really good. That's one thing that I noticed and then like I've been doing fake freckles lately. Really? Mary's like been telling me like just do your it's your like eyebrow pencil and just make a few and like that makes me feel like I don't know youthful. And it makes you look like you're not wearing makeup, probably, right?

Yeah, it kind of gives that, like, effect. Yeah. Amazing. It's been super exciting for me because I've been working with Bellamy and I've had their hair for years. And one thing I always tell clients and, like, take your extensions. Like, they have really great color, like so many options. But I love taking your extensions in the shower with you on a hanger, like a pant hanger

and just, like, washing it and drying it. And it's like your best friend. And it's funny because people will say to me, is like, should I feel weird about wearing extensions and I'm like it's literally 2025 like we've come a long way you don't need to be so like self-conscious about it also like if you're dating somebody and like they haven't ever seen extensions something wrong with them yeah yeah true thank you so much for coming that was so fun tell everybody where they can find you and all of your brands everything you can find me at jen i can hear and then i everything is there yeah everything is there and i'm so happy i got to do this

I really love your podcast. Oh, thank you so much. I love everything you do. And everybody can go to show notes too. And I think we'll have links and everything to follow me and all of the things. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you liked the episode and if you liked the show in general, please take a second to rate, review, and subscribe.

It goes such a long way in supporting the show. Follow the show over on Instagram at well.pod. You can also follow my personal Instagram. at Ariel Lorry. I'm always sharing great clips from the episodes, and we also have full episodes on YouTube as well if you want to watch in entirety. Thanks for listening. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.