Well with Arielle Lorre - 423: Reverse Dieting, Protein & the Truth About Training with Sal Di Stefano

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

Sal Di Stefano is a renowned fitness expert, author, and co-host of the hit podcast “Mind Pump”.  He joins the show  to break down the simple, sustainable principles that make strength training the most effective path to long-term health, confidence, and consistency.We cover: Why it’s hard to “overdo” strength training—and the power of feeling strong Why quick fixes backfire and how to avoid the obsession trap How to get back on track without shame Negative motivation vs. real, lasting change The honest postpartum bounce-back reality Fitting fitness into a busy life (yes, even with 2 days a week) Fueling properly and overcoming the fear of losing progress Breaking up with restrictive dieting + when data doesn’t match real life The most effective form of cardio How to avoid hyper-palatable foods Reverse dieting basics + breakfast protein tips Sal’s most overrated and underrated exercisesFollow Sal at @mindpumpdistefano on Instagram.This episode is brought to you by:Save 15% off my favorite Red Light Face Mask by using code BLONDE at www.boncharge.com.Go to justthrivehealth.com and use code WELL for 20% off your first 90 day bottle of Just Thrive probiotic. Visit OSEAMalibu.com and use code BLONDE for 10% off your first order sitewide. Use code WELL at cozyearth.com for up to 40% off. Visit fatty15.com/WELL and use code WELL at checkout for an additional 15% off their Starter Kit.Go to fromourplace.com/BLONDE and use code BLONDE for 10% off sitewide. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.Produced by Dear Media.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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without your Reis-Adviseur or SunnyCars. The following podcast is a dear media production. This is well, a podcast about wellness in all its forms. I'm Ariel Lori, and each week I'm sharing unfiltered conversations with people shaping how we feel, live, and look. Come for the substance, stay for the

honesty, and leave with the tools to be well, inside and out. I am so excited about this episode. I know that you guys are going to absolutely love it. If you loved my episode with Joe Holder, then you're going to love this one as well. So I'm talking to Sal DeStefano. He is a guest that I have wanted to have on for such a long time. He is a renowned fitness expert. He's an author. He is the co-host of the top-ranked Mind Pump podcast, where he breaks down health and training through a science-backed common sense lens.

And I know that is what so many of you appreciate as well as myself is that common sense approach. With over 20 years of experience as a personal trainer and gym owner, he is known for cutting through industry noise, challenging harmful fitness myths, and teaching people how to build strong, healthy bodies without obsession or burnout. His approach interestingly blends behavioral psychology, strength training principles, and practical lifestyle strategies making sustainable fitness accessible to everyone from beginners to elite athletes. What does that all mean for you and for this episode? He is going to tell us some fitness truths that are

going to challenge beliefs that we've had in the past. Something that I was shocked to hear from him was that you really only need to strength train twice a week. Twice a week. That's not be active only twice a week, but strength train twice a week. And you can do that and get the ideal body that you want. However, most of us think that more is more and we can almost get into these addictive cycles where we become addicted to the diet or the exercise and then, we feel like if we stop even for a day or two, something is going to catch up to us. We're going to lose all of our momentum and progress. And he really challenges that notion.

He has so many amazing tips in this episode about how to build a sustainable routine and just the simple things that we can be doing to not overcomplicate this. I really loved his approach. I love his passion. I was so excited, like I said, to get to talk to him. and he absolutely delivered. So please enjoy Sal DeStefano. Welcome.

Yeah, thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. I feel like it has been a long time coming. Like you have been on the top of my list when it comes to fitness professionals for such a long time. Thank you. And we were just talking off Mike. I mean, you've been doing this for 10 years as far as the podcasting goes. So very early adapter.

I think back then I started seven years ago. And I think there were maybe a couple hundred thousand. podcast, but of those, the ones that were actually active were, you know, a tiny fraction of that. Yeah. So it's changed a lot in just a decade. And even the space that I work in in fitness, the messaging is shifted, which in a pot, and actually in a positive way. There's a lot of work to do still, but definitely in a positive way.

So I think I see people talking about things now that 10 years ago, you know, when I would bring them up on the show, they're considered controversial or just nobody was really saying those things. So it's good stuff too. What's an example of that? My favorite example is the way that strength training is now viewed for women. My whole career, I've been doing this for a long time. I started as a trainer back in 1997, so just to give you some context.

And for most of my career, I would have to really convince women to do traditional strength training. They were afraid of it. Is it going to make me big and bulky? And I just want to lose weight. And that's for men. And so a lot of my career was really having to sell strength training and convince women that this is a really effective way to exercise if you want to look the way that you're telling me you want to look and for health and longevity. Today, it's not as hard to sell it, especially to the younger

generation. I have a 16-year-old. She just turned 16. 16-year-old daughter. And she's saying things to me like, I want to get stronger and build muscle. And trust me, it's not dad's influence because I'm totally not cool to my daughter. But it's because of what she's seeing on social media, which is a great direction, I think, in particular for young women. So that's just one good example. Yeah, I want to dive into all of that. I mean, I definitely have noticed the shift as well. I started my Instagram account back in 2016.

And at the time, I was like, oh, I want to get healthy. And there were, I mean, the landscape of social media was completely different back then. But to me, healthy meant having apps. And that was it. That was all I knew to do. And there were a lot of different programs. circulating at the time. And there was one from an Australian trainer, Kayla Edsina. I don't know if

you're familiar with that. The BBG bikini body guide. And they were these PDF guides and it was high intensity, pliometric. Yeah, of course. You know, 28 minutes every day, maybe one day off. Yeah. And I did that and that's how my account grew and that's how I ended up having a career, you know, but I burned myself out very quickly. But that was the thing of that time. And then, you know, Pilates had a big moment. And I still think there's a, time and a place for all of that, but it does seem like strength training is the moment right now, both for men and for women, but especially for women. I've seen so many women go from, you know, the Pilates, the hit, the bar, those kinds of things and adopt this instead.

It's a better direction, not that it can't get dysfunctional. You can abuse yourself with any form of exercise, but strength training, if you're focusing on the aspect of building strength, it's hard to underfeed yourself and get stronger. If you over train, you're not going to get stronger. Now, again, you can abuse strength training like any form of exercise, but because there tends to be a performance element connected to it that's related to building lean tissue, again, you have to feed yourself appropriately.

And so now you're hearing women talk about eating appropriately, eating enough protein, reverse dieting. Like this is, now women are talking about this as well. Now, my ultimate goal is to really talk to people about the root of what contributes to this healthy lifestyle that sticks around forever. And we're still focused on the symptom of what that root is, which is how we look. And what I try to communicate to people, in particular again, to women, but this is important for men as well. It's just the reason why I say in particular for women is they get advertised much more heavily. and I would say loosely lied to more from the fitness industry about what's good and what's not good.

But I like to really talk to women and men about what core, what root leads to this look that you're looking for. Because if we chase the look, then we tend to abuse the root. And you actually get none, right? And so what does that root look like? Well, it looks like I'm doing this to care for myself like someone who's worth taking care of. And then around that is I want to get stronger. I want to feel more mobile. I want to have more vitality.

And if you use those as your guides, then you're going to make better decisions. You're not going to treat exercise like it's a punishment. And food starts to look more like nourishment rather than restriction. And strength training is just a good, it's a good component of that. I do want to say, though, that all forms of exercise, if used appropriately, are beneficial. So they're all good, so long as they're used in an appropriate way. But strength training is just this kind of pro lean tissue, pro get stronger form of exercise, which has all these great downstream of effects like balancing hormones.

You know, the positivity, the body positivity you get from it is much more empowering. It's not about getting small. It's about feeling strong. And then once you embrace that and you ditch the scale and you look more at like, okay, what am I lifting in the gym, which that can also go sideways, but it's still a better direction. when you do that and then suddenly you look in the mirror and go, oh, wait a minute. Like this is what I've been trying to look like this whole time. It's just I was doing it the wrong way.

And now I'm not even weighing myself and I'm eating more than I was eating before. And I feel good and I feel like I can do more. So I think it's just a great message. Yeah, I love how you talk about essentially longevity over aesthetics. Yes. Right. And I'm curious, at least when people first come to you, do people really want to be healthy or do they want to look good?

No, no, no. But, you know, I'm going to say this too. Just I get it because I struggle with the same thing. I still have, I can still struggle with some dysfunctional patterns with fitness. It can be an idol, wanting to look jacked and all that stuff. So I get it, which I think helps me communicate it a little bit better. But yeah, most people come to fitness because they want to look a particular way. My goal, my job, I would say, is to sell to them the right way better than,

the other guy can sell the wrong way, which isn't easy. That's not an easy fit, right? Because what are they selling? Look like this, look like this quick, take this pill. And I'm like, no, it's going to take you longer. And it's a lifelong thing. And it's a lifestyle. So how do I sell that better? Well, the most effective way that I've been able to come up with, which is also true, which is this. If you do it the way I'm explaining it, you'll look the way you want to look. You'll actually get there faster. And the other way actually doesn't result on what you're looking for. The other way results in this dysfunctional relationship that tends to look like one or two areas. It either looks like orthorexia where your fitness and diet is a stress or it looks like on off,

on off because you're doing it until you can't stand hating yourself anymore and then you just want to, you know, what do people say? I just want to live my life. Then they go off and then living their life actually looks like poor health as well and they do this, you know, bouncing back and forth. How do you personally and then also how do you coach people through that fine line between obsession and discipline? Yeah.

Because I feel like it's very nuanced, right? It is. It's a journey because it changes as your life changes. So my workouts are going to change or a person's workouts and diet are going to change depending on what their life calls. So overall, you want to look at your diet and your exercise or let's say your fitness and nutrition as a way to improve the quality of your life, regardless of the context of your life. So, okay, what's in my life right now? Well, I have kids. I have a job. So I want to

improve the quality of those things. So maybe I need more energy. Maybe I'm not getting a lot of sleep right now. Maybe I'm in pain. So when you look at it from that lens, then you can start to mold and shape what those applications look like. But what does that look like from a coaching perspective, it's a journey and it's filled with a lot of grace. This is not a linear, perfect journey. You're going to stumble. The biggest enemy, I would say, to this process is the shame spiral that can come from the stumble. So it's like, I'm doing really well, I'm doing really well. Oh my gosh, I just ate a whole box of cookies or I haven't worked out in two weeks. And now it's like I'm a bad person, what's wrong with me, or I look, insert word fat and attractive, whatever.

And then the motivation comes from this kind of negative self-hate place, which, and I mean, to be honest, that negative motivation, it's very powerful in the short term. Like, you can hate yourself to do things very effectively for a short while, but not for a long time. And I'd also like to add that you can't hate yourself into better health. Hating yourself is not healthy, so it's impossible to do so. So the journey is filled with grace. A good coach is that person that extends that grace to their client. You're doing a good job when your client comes to you when they've made a mistake

and they come looking to you for that grace. You're a bad trainer, and this will happen with trainers, when your client starts to hide things from you or when they don't want to tell you certain things or they're embarrassed to tell you certain things or they don't want to let you down because of what may, that judgment might happen or they stop seeing you because,

you know, God, I was doing so well and now I can't face the coach that I'm working with. And so a trainer extends that grace. And it's honesty, but it's also empathy. This is hard. This is a journey. No problem. Let's see if we can start back up.

And life is tough when it comes to this. Having kids is a huge challenge for people, in particular for women, in particular for fitness-minded women. So it's like, I'm working out. I'm fit. I'm pregnant. Oh, my body's not mine right now. Like, what's happening?

What's going on? And then now I've got this baby and I can't sleep and my hormones are totally different. And social media tells me I should be able to bounce back in four months, you know, by the way, it takes about a year or two. So they lied. In my experience, training women, you don't really feel like yourself 100% for about a year or two. And then I got a career or I have these other things that I'm taking care of. And how do I fit fitness into all of this?

And what used to work is now not working anymore. And so it's this journey that you're going to be on. And if it's truly improving the quality of your life, then you'll want to do it for the rest of your life. I feel like people would look at you. And obviously, you're an amazing shape and you've been in this industry for a long time. and you're so knowledgeable when it comes to all of this. And they would think that you would prescribe a very regimented thing. And actually when I've listened to you both on your show and in other interviews,

I feel like you have a lot of restraint when it comes to what you do prescribe to people. And you've said that, you know, it doesn't take a lot to elicit a positive response. And I think that that's really refreshing to hear. I think you even maybe said on somebody else's podcast like two days a week, of strength training is enough to make a positive impact. Obviously, I think that what happens if you get two days a week, then you want to build some momentum and it becomes this cycle where, you know, it affects to your point every area of your life. You want to eat healthier.

You want to, you know, sleep better, take care of yourself better. But if somebody is just starting out, I think that that is really encouraging and really manageable to hear, wait a second. I can do two days a week and I can have a good outcome. Well, Ariel, the data will tell you quite clearly that if you look at all of the potential results, let's say, that you can get from strength training. So, like, let's say it's on a scale of zero to a hundred. The data will show that you'll get 80% of it with two days a week. So, and this is how it works, right?

Two days a week will get 80%. Adding more gives you diminishing returns. Okay. So another day a week, now I'm going to get to like 85%. Another day a week. And so you get these diminishing returns for every day that you add. But that's also not considering that within two days a week, there's a lot I can do. Every time I add weight to the bar, I'm progressing. So my routine has now moved to a new level. How long can you progress on two days a week? A long time. If I, if somebody hired me, a healthy young woman hires me and says, I want to look sculpted, shaped. I want to, you know, I want to have a good. relatively lean body fat percentage around 20%, which is good healthy lean body fat percentage. I want to feel good. I'm going to encourage her to be active daily and usually I'll use step count as a way to do that. You can do other ways as well, but I'll say, okay, let's aim

for 8 to 10,000 steps a day. That's healthy. So you want to be active. We'll talk about diet, you know, how to eat in a way that's healthy, that's sustainable. That's not super stressful. We could talk about that. And then with the strength training Tuesday a week, you're going to progress for three years. So for three years, two days a week, I'm I'm going to be able to get you nice, consistent progress. Now, after three years, which by the way, you're going to look great. People are going to look at you and be like, oh, she works out. You're like, okay, now I want to take it to another level.

All right, we might add another day. Now you're looking at three days a week. And now you're most of the way there. Now you want to go four or five days a week. Well, now you're talking like, do you want to compete? Like, at what point is, are you, is this like, you know, something I really want to do? Or is this, am I happy with where I'm at? And I have yet to find.

it's pretty rare when I've trained someone that long with good consistency where they're at three days a week and they're like, I need more. They're always like, man, this is it. Like I'm crushing. I feel great. And that's just how good exercise programming works. And strength training is like that. Strength training is what you want to do with it is you want to use it to elicit an adaptation. So there's value in being active. But with strength training, the value is not in the being active part. So like I said, you need to be active every day. Just walk. And there's other forms again, but you could just walk. And there's your activity right there.

There's the value of activity. Okay, now when I'm strength training, what am I looking for? Just to be active? No. We want to trigger adaptations, which are strength and muscle, which of course gives you the look you want, the faster metabolism, the hormone balancing, all that stuff. And two days a week is more than enough, and I can work with that for a very long time.

The other side of this, too, is Ariel, if you hired me and you're like, I want to accomplish this. This is my goal. I want to do this, this, this, and that. My goal with you is to be able to do this, to help you do this for the rest of your life. I'm not interested in you getting in shape in three months. Now, you may tell me in three months I want to look, whatever, and I'll help you do that. But my over, my top goal is, can I, I want to get this person to do this forever.

Because I'm not interested in you, you know, quote unquote, getting in shape in three months and stopping. That means I failed as a good coach. I'm just thinking, oh, are you taking new clients? Sounds amazing. We have trainers now. We just started working with trainers and we're growing at really slow because we have really high standards. And this is coming from someone that sells digital workout programs. Nothing will impact you in a more positive way when it comes to fitness than working with a good coach.

There's nothing comes close. You have a good guide that guides you through this process. There's nothing I can do in a podcast. There's no digital workout program. There's no diet recommendation. I can do that. I'll even come close to that. But a good coach knows this.

And again, I'm telling the truth here. And for anybody who's watching, is like, is that for real? Yeah, look, I'll tell you right. I'll give you a basic breakdown. Of course, there's individualization, but here's your basic breakdown. You can pick, choose from eight exercises, some kind of a press, a horizontal press, like a bench press or incline press, some kind of an overhead press, a deadlift of some type, so that's like a hip-hinging movement, so it could be a trap bar, straight bar,

deadlift, some kind of a row would be good in there, maybe something with rotation. maybe something lateral, and then you can throw on some core exercises, and rotate through those exercises and practice them and get stronger at them. And feed your body appropriately. I got to say this over and over again. If you don't feed your body appropriately, I don't care how effective your strength training program is. Not only will it not build muscle, you'll actually go backwards.

You can get osteopenia with strength training and not feeding yourself properly. So feed the adaptations you're looking for. and rotate through like eight exercises. And for the next three years, you'll see nice, consistent progress. I've been traveling for the last few weeks. And when I was in Paris, I got an amazing facial. And something that they included in the facial at the end was red light therapy. And this is something that all of my favorite facialists in L.A. do as well, which I think is

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I think that's something that a lot of women, especially and men, I'm sure, have learned that it's difficult to unwind, is that it's like no pain, no gain. Sure. Five or six days on, one day off. Like this balance that you're talking about between adaptation and recovery is something that seems so counterintuitive. And I know this happens for me as well. Like I'll start working out and getting really into it.

And then you feel good from that. And so then you want to add more and more and more. And you think more equals more results. And then if you think, oh, I take a day off, I'm going to like lose my progress. And anytime that I have anybody in the fitness world on my podcast and I give the audience an opportunity to ask questions, I get so many questions around that. And there's this fear. I don't know if men have this, but I know a lot of women have this. this where if I take a day off or if I take a week off even, you know, or if I get sick

or if something happens, I'm going to lose all of my progress. And it's almost like people feel like once they start, they cannot stop. Otherwise, it doesn't work that way. Yeah. Yeah. Think of it this way. If you had like, you know, you have a graph here. Over here is nothing. Over here is too much. The perfect dose will get you the best results. More than that will not get you better results. will actually give you worse results and can cause problems like hormone imbalance. And you'll see this, especially in women, but you'll see some men as well where their testosterone starts to plummet. So think of it this way. You have a headache.

I have a bottle of ibuprofen. There's a right dose that'll get rid of your headache. There's also a dose that'll kill you. Okay. So the right dose, it's what's best. Now, you mentioned recovery, but really it's adaptation. Recovery is the healing process. Adaptation is what happens both simultaneously and after recovery, where your body is super compensating,

overcompensating. So if I were to rub my skin with sandpaper and break down some of the surface skin, my body would initially need to heal the skin that was worn down. But then what it would do is it add a layer or two of skin to resist that same insult later. Now, if I do that over and over again, and I do it appropriately, I'll develop a callus. If I rub the heck out of my skin, I'm just going to bleed. And so this is what people do with exercise. And now those of us who are really committed and consistent, we tend to start at the right dose.

And then we start to see how much we can tolerate. So it becomes a game of how much more can I do and still see some results, not realizing that we're leaving results on the table. We're going with what we can tolerate, not with what's ideal. So to put it in a different way, if you were to look at your whole year of exercise, 90% of it is going to look like this. And then there's that 10% where you sprint. So there are those moments for people who are really consistent, which is about 10% of the time, not 50% of time,

where you are pushing it a little bit. Now, of course, the more advanced you get, I guess the louder the signal needs to be, the harder the stimulus needs to be to elicit more change. What a, you know, somebody who's been doing this for five years consistently, what they need to do to get their body to get a little bit strong, is very different than what someone would need to do in the first three months or the first year. And that's just how adaptation works.

And obviously it's not perpetual. If it was, you know, I'd be bench pressing 5,000 pounds by this point, but it just doesn't work that way. The metric that I like to tell people to use, especially in the first three years of strength, training is strength. It's the most objective metric you can use. Not the scale, not even dexas scans or body fat, percentages, but strength. If you're getting stronger, you are building muscle. It's the strongest correlate to that. It tells you a lot. If your diet is off, you won't get stronger. If your sleep is bad, you won't get stronger. And if your workout programming isn't appropriate,

you won't get stronger. If you're getting stronger, you're good. Don't think to yourself, like, can I do more? Yeah. Like, I just added 10 pounds to my squat. I'm doing great. Yeah. That's where I struggle. I'm also a former addict, so I think it makes sense, but I remember back to when I was doing that BBG program, I also started tracking macros, and I would kind of see what I could get away with, because I was like, oh, well, I'm doing 1,600 calories. I don't remember the macro breakdown, and I'm getting really lean and cut. So can I cut a little bit more, but increase the volume of my food, but cut the calories or the fat or whatever, and increase my exercise? And it started to be like, How can I manipulate this more?

Like, good wasn't good enough. I had to keep pushing. And, you know, I pushed myself into the ground. So I didn't work out very well. But that's kind of what I was alluding to earlier. Like, especially when you get into your position, you know, like, how do you not cross that line? Like, oh, my God, well, I can do this much. Can I do the next thing?

Yeah, I feel you. I can identify with that. Yeah. It becomes abusive and it's self-abuse. Yeah. And that feels cathartic when you don't like yourself. You know, if you hate yourself, working out till you feel like throwing up feels great because this is what I deserve.

Now, you might not necessarily be aware of that, but if you walk out the gym where you can barely move, you're exhausted, you feel like you're going to throw up and you say to yourself, that was a great workout, then there's something there that we need to look a little deeper into. If your diet is more about control than it is about nourishment, and that's the root, with diet is how much more can I control? And especially when you feel like things are out of control in your life for whatever reason, this is something I can totally control and I feel like I have mastery over. And that feels good when things are scary. And so this is kind of the root of it. So

it's funny when you look at the data on people who work with, let's say, a therapist, versus people who work with a nutritionist, people who work with a therapist have better long-term success when it comes to their weight than someone who works with a nutritionist. You know, you mentioned macro counting and all that stuff.

I will use macros just so people know what's in food, but I hate it. I don't let people. I don't, I discourage people from tracking macros all the time. I discourage people from weighing themselves. One of the top pieces of advice I give on my show when we have callers is,

is take your scale, throw it away. I'm not gonna let you weigh yourself for three months. Here's what I'm gonna have you focus on. How do you feel? How's your sleep? How strong are you? And then here's what you're gonna do for diet. I want you to hit your target body weight and protein.

Let's avoid ultra-process food. And they eat as much as you want. And it's really scary for people who are coming from a place of like controlling everything. But when they do it, if they're able to do it, because it's very difficult, then usually 60 days in, They're like, this feels free. I have a completely different relate.

This feels great. This is amazing. I'm eating more than I ever thought I would. And look how great. Now, that doesn't mean you can't slip back because it's definitely one of those things you could slip back into. But this is the message I try to communicate. And this is what, I mean, I look, funny, I was on an earlier show and I was talking with

my friend and he brought up a study, which was a, you know, sometimes they do studies. And you're just like, yeah, well, of course, that's the result. This study showed that among fitness professionals, body dysmorphia was a much higher percentage than it was with the general population. Duh. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been saying this for years. Like trainers, a lot of us become trainers because this is something that we, and what helps a lot of us is to work with other people.

And again, I have to sell it. If you do what I'm saying and you address it the way I'm saying it, the end result is you're going to look the way you think you're going to look by doing it the wrong way. You're going to get there doing what I'm saying. Are there any discrepancies that you can think of, I mean, speaking of research and data and all of that, where it's like it has a different application in the real world. I don't know if I'm articulating that the right way. But like the research and the data shows one thing. But in reality, you know, it's something completely different. Can you think of examples of that?

Yeah, all the time. So first off, when you look at studies, you have to be able to understand how the study's done, who was in the study, how big the sample size was and what the controls were. But most studies are done with college-aged males. So that's just number one. Now, that's not because they're purposely picking college-age males, but when they're offering people $25 a day to do a study, typically it's college-age males. I'll do.

I'll sign up for that. So that's number one. Beer money. Yeah. Number two, studies are great, but you need to be able to look at studies from a coach's perspective through the lens of experience. So I'll give you a great example.

If you look at the data on forms of cardio, Which form of cardio is the most effective, especially when to look at the time spent doing it. So which one gives you the biggest bang for your buck when it comes to calorie burn, fat loss, all that stuff? Hit cardio. High intensity interval training beats all of them in the data. Now ask me what percentage of people that I've worked with was hit cardio appropriate for? A minority, probably 20% of them. Why? It's also the most stressful form of cardio.

So if I'm working with, I'll create a scenario, young lady who's been eating $16,00 calories a day for a long time. She's been trying to manage her weight. She tends to over-train. She's coming to me for help. I'm not going to have her do hit cardio. That is going to throw her hormones in the toilet. It's going to burn her out.

She's going to lose muscle. What am I going to choose for her walking? You're going to walk. What do you mean? I can't do intense cardio? No. going to walk. Well, how much exercise going to do? Two days a week of strength rank. That's what we're going to start you up. That would be inappropriate for that person. Who's hit cardio appropriate for?

People who are really fueling themselves who have lots of energy, aren't overstressed, who hormones are balanced. Then I might add some hit cardio. So that's a good example of, you know, what the data is going to show versus, you know, how you would apply it in the real world. I want to talk about the diet piece because you've mentioned it a few times. And I think that there's so much confusion around And nutrition and diet and protein and protein needs and protein sources and all of that. So what is like a, I know everybody is different, bio-individuality, blah, blah, blah. But what is like a universal kind of rule that people can adhere to, especially when it comes to protein intake?

Because I know that you're a proponent of protein, especially with this kind of training and the importance of having muscle for your metabolism and for so many other benefits. Yeah, so generally speaking, a high protein diet is better for fat loss, athletic performance, muscle gain, and hormone health. Okay. So generally speaking, high protein is good. Now, what do I mean by high protein? So most people eat enough protein to meet the minimums. And so anything above that, the dietary association would consider high protein.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about higher than that. So you're aiming for about, and I like to use a round number, about a gram of protein per pound of target body weight. So this is what you want to aim for. Get it from whole natural foods. Eat it first. If you do that, everything else tends to take care of itself. Now, this is not easy.

So people listening are like, oh, cool. So for breakfast, I'm going to have two eggs. That's 12 grams of protein. Congratulations. But most women would probably need to eat it between 30 to 40 grams of protein for breakfast. and for men a bit higher. So it's a lot. It's a decent amount.

And it tends to control satiety in combination with strength training. What you tend to do is feed yourself appropriately. So if you avoid ultra-processed foods, and I don't need to necessarily go into what makes them unhealthy and all that stuff. And we can talk about that if you want for hours. But the main reason why we avoid ultra-processed foods is they're engineered to make you overeat. And what does that mean? That means that food scientists, by the way,

the food scientists that started this kind of insane science initially came from the tobacco industry. A lot of people don't know this. So the tobacco industry, once they realized they were getting regulated, they made some of the largest corporate purchases in American history at the time. And what they did is they moved into the food industry. And what the scientists who understood how to make cigarettes really attractive, use their knowledge and said, what is it that makes food enjoyable? the word that you use is palatable.

What is it? And can we engineer food to make it so palatable and so irresistible that people want to buy more of it? Now, what this means is when you eat it, it throws essentially all of your systems of satiety out the window. Okay, so a good example is a large bag of potato chips, okay, contains like four or five potatoes. If I put five plain boiled potatoes in front of you and say,

eat these all, it would be really hard. But if I said eat this whole bag of chips, most of us could get pretty far. I could crush one. Same. No problem. Same amount of potato. In fact, the bag of potato chips has more calories.

And that's because it's hyper palatable. Yeah. So it's hard to listen to your body when your signals are off, is what I'm trying to say. Well, how can I listen to my body when these foods are just, they have these crazy properties? You can't. Now you have to count your macros because I don't know if I'm eating appropriately.

When you get rid of hyper-palatable ultra-processed foods, your body's systems of satiety actually work pretty well. They'll actually prevent you from overeating too much for the most part. So ultra-processed foods, don't eat them or avoid them, I would say. And then hit your protein targets and eat it first. Those two things alone. Okay, so if you're active daily, eight to 10,000 steps a day, you're doing some strength training. And you just did those two things. most women would fall probably around

their body fat percentage would eventually come down in the low 20s by itself what that means is you're eating as much as you want so the other part of that is eat until you're satisfied what do you mean I can't I don't need to like restrict no no eat until you're satisfied and what will happen over time

in combination with strength training is your body fat percentage will come down to a nice healthy relatively lean body fat now you're not going to get abs but getting abs is for most people especially for women, not very healthy. If you want hormone imbalance, go ahead and chase abs. But you're going to be in the low 20s.

You're going to feel good, and you're going to feel like you're just eating kind of as much as you want. So no ultra-processed foods, hit your protein targets, eat it first, and you're set, and you really don't need to do much else. Now, someone may say, well, when do I count macros? Well, you want to get on stage. You want to get in the teens and body fat percentage.

Then you may need to start tracking a little bit, because now you're bringing your body fat percentage below where a healthy body likes to be, which would be kind of outside that fertility healthy zone, then you might need to track. But other than that, like I said, most women are like,

and for men, this will fall, probably between 13 to 16% body fat, which is what considered athletic. And it just gets there naturally without you having to like count and freak out and do everything. Now, does this mean you can't enjoy a night out

or the occasional? No, of course. Like, enjoying those kinds of foods is also valuable. But I think it's valuable in the context of, you know, enjoying the people around you. Maybe it's a birthday. And if your strength training and fueling the muscle,

your metabolic rate goes up. So this is within the realm of typical. And I'm using the example of 16 in her calories because that's what you told me. If I had somebody come to me, a young woman come to me who's eating 60 in her calories, been doing that for a while, working out. If she starts strength training properly,

I could very easily reverse diet her to 22, 2300 calories and end up with a fit, lean body. That's a big difference. I mean, that's a, that's a six, 700 calorie difference. That's a lot more flexibility. Now, if I go out with my friends on the weekend or whatever, it's not going to make that big of a dent. Whereas before, you know, this person probably feels like if I go off a little bit, boom, suddenly I gain body fat. Yes. It is that time of year when we are all trying to figure out what gift.

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Well, yeah, that was the huge thing about macros that was so difficult for me to overcome was I became so attached to those numbers and so obsessed that I felt like I'm in my fitness pal and if I log something that has five extra grams of fat or however many extra calories, You think that you're going to blow up. I mean, I don't know what I thought was going to happen. And so it took a lot of time for me to kind of untrain my brain from thinking about those numbers when I ate and everything. But I was never, I've never been leaner than when I do pretty much what we're talking about here, which is focused on protein fiber as well.

And, you know, it's really, really, really hard to overeat when you're hitting those protein numbers. I still struggle, I think, to probably get if I'm 110 pounds, I think it's hard for me to get 110. lunch and dinner, yes. Breakfast. Yes. Do you have any tips for people for breakfast? Because I don't really want to sit there and eat four eggs. Sometimes I have like, I'm eating like my chicken.

I'm trying. It's like it's hard. It is. It's not easy. I mean, I'll typically tell people save some of the meat you had the night before, throw it in a scramble, you know, Greek yogurt, sometimes a little easier. If you're finding it's difficult, a protein shake can help make up the differences

is where I would use something like that. Do you like weigh? Way is great. If you can't have dairy like me, egg protein is what I'll use. There's some vegan proteins that are pretty good that you can use as well. I like to try to stick to whole natural foods, but like you just gave me a scenario where you're like, I feel good, I'm fit, you know, it's hard for me to hit the protein targets. Someone like you would say, well, throw in a shake at the end of the night when you know you're

off by, you know, 20 or 30 grams. And that'll help with your progress in the gym. Got it. Okay. I want to ask you some lightning round and this and that questions. Sure. You're fun with this stuff. So I feel like we may land on things that we can expand upon, but let's see.

I mean, we've kind of been answering this, but what is more important, consistency or intensity? Consistency. A subpar routine done consistently will outperform the perfect routine done inconsistently. So this is good for anybody who's listening who's like, gosh, my lifestyle only is allowing me to work out once a week. Good. Then just do that. By the way, there's another way to apply this, Ariel, that we started doing a couple years ago. and we're having great success with.

So instead of two workouts a week, for a lot of people, it's easier to be consistent if they just did 15 to 20 minutes a day. And you can do this with strength training. So what does that look like? Two lifts a day. So I go, I pick two compound lifts, three sets each, I'm done. And I do that six days a week. For some people, that is a lot easier to stay consistent.

They like the daily habit of it. They get great results. And it's really no different than putting it all in two workouts. Talk about walking after meals as well. I know that that's something you're a proponent of. Yeah, it's great. There's one main reason why it's great. And then there's a physiological reason why it's good.

The main reason why I like it is you're attaching it to a behavior that you're already doing. So it helps with consistency. So if you walk for 10 minutes after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, you're doing 30 minutes a day. Or 20 minutes after breakfast lunch and there's an hour walk right there. And it's easy. It's broken up throughout the day. If you miss one, you still did two of them. So it tends to work behaviorally.

Physiologically, it's great for insulin sensitivity. Dr. Seeds was on my podcast a while ago and he made a statement and he's an expert in this and he said, you know, if everybody just walked after their meals, we would solve a majority of the pre-diabetes in this country. It has profound effects on blood sugar and insulin sensitivity. Why is that beneficial? If you can improve your insulin sensitivity, aside from like, okay, I'm not going to get pre-diabetes and all that stuff, you feel better.

Those highs and lows are what give us the irritability, anxiety, the crashes and energy. So a little walk after eating really stabilizes our energy and mood, which does that contribute to our consistency with everything else? It totally does. I mean, I don't know about you, but when my energy's up and down, my food choices are not as good. My workouts aren't as, it's harder to be consistent. So, yeah, post-pranile. Love it. Most overrated exercise.

Ooh, adductor and abductor. Yeah, that's the, you know, an out machine. There's some correctional exercise applications, but, like, Like if you're trying to build your butt or like there's so many better exercises, total waste of time. I love the face you made for everyone watching on YouTube. Most underrated exercise. Oh boy. Underrated exercise.

Well, everybody deadlifts and squats now, which is great. It wasn't like that 10 years ago. Dumbel pullover. Crossbench dumbbell pullover. Great exercise for the back. Great for shoulder mobility. Not a lot of people are doing them. And I think they're phenomenal.

The exercise you secretly hate. Oh, God. Front squats. They're so hard. Really? Yeah, I just, I hate them, but they're so good too, but I really don't like them. The move everyone should master first. Ooh, that they should master first. Any kind of a squat.

There's so much involved with a squat. It's such a foundational human movement. There's so much carryover to other things. And if you stop practicing it, you'll eventually lose the ability to do it. What's your first non-negotiable habit of the day? For me, personally. Yeah. Well, these days it's prayer.

You know, and this is just a recent thing for me, but it's contributed so much to so many things that this is just, it's a part of my, throughout my day. That's what I do. I love that. Same. Same. How do you reset when you fall off your routine? You know, you're asking the wrong guy because I'm fanatical. So, you know.

Fair. Yeah. How it would tell somebody else to reset, give yourself grace and just start back up. Grace is so important with this. If you get stuck in that, I'm a bad person. an idiot or whatever, very easy to slide into. This is now a form of self-punishment. One thing people should stop optimizing.

Morning routine. I think morning routines are great, but at some point, if you have kids, your morning routine is going to look different every day. And if you're really stuck on your morning routine, you're going to be disappointed a lot with little kids. Yeah. What is your guilty pleasure? Oh, boy. Oh, you know what?

Lately I've been such a guy. This is going to sound so funny. I feel like this is such a guy thing. I found these pages on Instagram where people blow things up with like fireworks and like half a stick of dynamite. I didn't even know this existed. I just found this the other day. And they're like putting it like a firecracker or like a half a stick of dynamite in a hole and they run away and it blows up. Like the things that get our attention now.

Do you know what mine is? Have you seen the reel or cake? I love that. Okay. So you guys are on the same algorithm that I'm on. Can I ask you? I think this is a female thing. Okay.

I have a theory around this. And so far it seems to be true with the people I've asked. My wife, she hates it when I bring this up. Loves pages where people are like squeezing pimples. Oh. And getting things out of their face. Yeah.

Do you guys like that? Okay. So no, but with a caveat. So like the big ones that have a love. lot of like the gross ones no but today i actually came across one i think it was my facialist actually and it was like very aesthetic and she just was like kind of scraping along like just gently and there was just some you know sebaceous stuff coming out and it was actually oddly satisfying but like the real

pimple popping stuff like that i can't she loves it i think it's so disgusting and i'm like didn't dr pimple popper get a show oh so i have a theory on that's like she's Like we're like monkeys and she like wants to clean my, you know, let me get, let me pop this. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. People love seeing the gross stuff that comes out. I can't handle it. Bodies.

Yeah. Okay, let's see. What's a song that always gets you hyped to train? Oh, man. So you want to hear a crazy story. Yeah. So two years ago, so I was an atheist and two years ago I became a Christian. That's a whole other story.

And one of the craziest changes that happened to me, and it's just crazy. because if you know me that you'll know this is wild. I've been working out since I was 14. And since I was 14, the workout music I listened to, or I used to listen to, was angry metal or death metal. Like, just sepultura, rage against the machine would be like the softer stuff that I'll listen. This is what I worked out to, and I didn't change it ever. Like, this was my ritual.

And, you know, I've become a Christian, and I'm in the gym working out. And also, I used to never. smiled in my workouts. It was like angry. I'm like, have this, like, you wouldn't want to approach me. I'm in the gym and I'm like smiling and joyful. I'm like, what am I listening to? Worship music? What? This is wild. And I put back my old stuff and I didn't want to listen to it anymore. So now I listen to worship music and my favorite songs. I love Resurrection Day by Wren Collective. That's really great. That's actually one of my favorite ones. And it just gets me joyful. I work out joyfully now, which if you knew me before, we'd be like, what has happened?

And have you had any different results from that? My workouts are far more joyful and happy and rewarding. I love that. What is one thing you think people probably aren't doing that they can start doing today for lifespan, health span, all of that? Manage your algorithms on social media. You know, we talked about ultra-process foods and how they're engineered in ways that cause dysfunctional Your algorithms are, they engineer themselves on the fly. And they're really, there's so much better than you think you can manage. So you have to consciously manage your algorithm. So if you're scrolling and you're into fitness,

what you're seeing probably a lot of are unachievable bodies, perfection, or you're looking at a bunch of orthorexic dysfunctional, dysfunctional, I mean, like I said, the fitness industry is full of it. And your brain is perceiving this as the world. You know, I've managed gyms for years. It's rare to see a six-pack in a gym. And that's a self-selection bias of fitness people. But if you're on social media all the time, you don't, without realizing, you're comparing yourself to these people and you're going to feel very inadequate. So feed yourself with content that is uplifting. That's going to require conscious effort because our minds, our brains are wired towards sensational, scary, anxiety

producing. And so that shifts the filter through which you see the world. It shapes your mind, your mood, your attitudes. It's extremely powerful. And if you can consciously modify that or turn it off, it will have profound effects on everything else. That's amazing advice. I love that.

It's unexpected, but so, so, so important. I'm really aware of it because of the space I work in, but also because I have a teenage daughter. Yeah. And it's really crazy. It has warped a lot of our perceptions around things. Even if you're just like, well, I'm just looking, your mind thinks that's where you live. Yeah. And it will change how you view things.

And what's happened a lot is perception drift. And so what we perceived as what's actually healthy is starting to drift into this weird social media world with these kind of distortions. And so turn it off or be conscious. Like is this, is this bringing me joy? Is this helping me grow? Is this good stuff? And if it's not, you have to consciously, you have to click on it and say, I want to see less of this. Yeah, I did that today. Good. Your algorithm will start to shift back by the way. So it has to be like a daily thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's such good advice. Change the inputs. I think that people forget that they actually have a choice. Yes. Yes. 100%. Otherwise, if you don't manage it, it will manage you.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was amazing. Tell everybody where they can find you. Yeah, so mind pump. So mind pump media. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, and we've been to know us for a long time, so it's not hard to find us. The OGs. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you liked the episode, and if you like the show in general, please take a second to rate, review, and subscribe. It goes such a long way in supporting the show. Follow the show over on Instagram at well.pod. You can also follow my personal Instagram at Ariel Lorry. I'm always sharing great clips from the episodes, and we also have full episodes on YouTube as well if you want to watch an entirety. Thanks for listening.

This is Amanda Hirsch from the Not Skinny but Not Fat Podcast. You might know me from Not Skinny but but on Instagram where I spend my time talking about reality TV, celebrities, everything happening, and pop culture every Tuesday, okay? I also talk to some of our favorite celebs and reality TV stars. We talk about what's going on. Tune in every Tuesday and just feel like you're talking a shit with your best friends in your living room. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and

services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect find. financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.