Well with Arielle Lorre - 424: Your Guide to Light Therapy: Better Skin, Better Energy, Better Aging with Andy and Katie Mant

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

This week I’m joined by Andy and Katie Mant — founders, innovators, and the couple behind some of the most forward-thinking light therapy and bio-resonance tools in beauty and wellness today. We get into how their products were born from a quest for that elusive pre-wedding glow, the science of circadian lighting, and the real difference between red vs. near-infrared vs. far-infrared wavelengths. We break down the irradiance you actually need for results (and whether at-home devices can deliver), how long to use light therapy for maximum impact, and the ideal order of skincare + red light for skin benefits. We also explore how beauty practices sync with your circadian rhythm, whether blue light is dehydrating your skin (and affecting your thyroid), and the surprising effects of your phone’s light on your face. Plus: how to use a PEMF mat for grounding or energizing, how frequency-based therapies are finally entering mainstream medicine, why red light can deliver visible results fast, and the most underrated tools and habits they swear by.Save 15% off my favorite Red Light Face Mask by using code BLONDE at www.boncharge.com.Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.Produced by Dear Media.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. This is Well, a podcast about wellness in all its forms. I'm Ariel Lori, and each week I'm sharing unfiltered conversations with people shaping how we feel, live, and look. Come for the substance, stay for the honesty, and leave with the tools to be well, inside and out. Today's episode is so good, you guys. I really think it's going to change the way you think about beauty, skin care,

even things like the lighting in your home. So I'm sitting down with Andy and Katie Mant. They are the duo behind some of the most innovative light therapy and frequency-based wellness tools on the market. And if you saw the title or the description or you're listening to the thinking that this sounds like it's going to be a woo-woo episode, it is not. They are leaders in the wellness and biohacking space, but they also have the science to back up their claims. So it's a really fascinating episode when it comes to that. And we get into how they went from wanting a pre-wedding glow to creating devices now used for skin health, circadian balance, energy, even grounding. We talk about red versus near infrared versus far infrared light, which is something

that a lot of people get confused on. We talk about how much irradiance you actually need to see results in your skin, the effect of blue light on your skin and even your thyroid. We are inundated with blue light, especially from our phones all day long. We talk how to layer light with skincare for maximum impact. And then we also get into pampf frequency medicine, why hospitals are starting to adapt technologies that used to be considered fringe. So if you've ever wondered whether at home devices work, how long to use them, when to use them. If your phone is literally dehydrating and aging your face. This episode is for you and you guys know that I have been a fan of Bon Charge, which is the company that they founded for so long. I've been using all of their products. Their sauna blanket,

their face and chest masks, their pymph mat. And I cannot say enough great things about them. So if you feel inspired to check those out after this episode, I have a code blonde for 15% off when you go to bondcharge.com. We will put it in show notes. So please enjoy. Andy and Katie Mant. Hi. Thanks for having us today. I am so looking forward to talking to you both. We were just talking off mic about this interest in red light. Yeah. Which I think is massive right now. And huge. I'm pretty vocal about how much I love it and how much of a difference it's made in my skin. And I just had another skincare person on my podcast before you guys. Charlotte Palomino, she's a skincare founder, also obsessed with red light. And we were talking about what is the future of skincare?

because she owns a skincare brand as well. Yeah. She's very involved in the space. I mean, she knows more than like anybody that I've ever spoken to, I think. And I asked her, what is the future of skincare? And she said treatments. I go. So that is like office treatments, but also these at-home treatments that we have accessible to us.

I think it's completely changing the game. And you guys are at the forefront of that, not just with red light, but also with things like at-home sauna, PEMF, these tools, you know, that are available to us now. So I would love to just start by how did you get into that space to begin with? It actually started when we were getting ready for our wedding. So it was our pre-wedding glow up that every bride and groom goes through, looking for ways to look your best, feel your best, and be in the best shape, for your wedding. So we did every diet under the sun, up the ante on the exercise, but sleep was really impacted. So Andy used to fall asleep, but he couldn't stay asleep.

So that would impact his energy the next day, but also impact myself. You know, you're sharing a bed with this individual. You are exhausted the next day. You look haggard from the lack of sleep. So we went down the rabbit hole to see how we could improve our sleep. And at the time discovered the impact artificial blue light has on our body's ability to produce melatonin and how that disrupts your sleep. So looked at ways how we could regulate our artificial blue light exposure after dark and learned all about blue light blocking glasses. And the science was saying there's a very specific bandwidth that you need to block in order to allow your body to naturally produce melatoning and we just could not find any blue light blocking glasses on the market that

blocked that exact frequency. So long story short, we decided to try and develop a tint ourselves. First of all, in the garage, which can you imagine trying to do that now. It was not a scalable concept, but we just took a punt and went out to an optometrist's. They liked what we said, gave it a go, sent it to some influences. They loved it. And so the brand naturally just evolved from our, I guess our own journey to try and optimize our own sleep. And And then through time, we've just grown the brand from blue light management into red light therapy and saunas and PEMF technology over the years, just with the evolution of wellness over the years as well.

It's really interesting what Katie mentioned then. We started in blue light. But when we started to go down the rabbit hole of how light can impact our bodies from metabolic process, from a health and wellness process, we discovered it wasn't just blue light that could be used. Each frequency of light has such amazing properties to be able to help people. like blue light is great during the day to keep us alert after dark, no good because it disrupts our sleep. Green light has been shown in studies to help with migraine and symptoms with migraines.

And then we discovered red light was great for melatonin production, but also if you harness therapeutic frequencies of red and near infrared light, this could have profound benefits on people's recovery on their skin, joint and muscle pain, things like that. So it was really our interested light that started in blue and got us all the way through to red where we are today. So was that the next product for you guys? Did you go from blue to the red light? Yeah, we went from glasses to block blue light. And then we thought, well, if you have to block light because it's incorrect in the first place, how could we make light true and then the correct form to begin with? So our next product was actually our circadian friendly lighting to help optimize people's environments at home. Yeah, yeah.

It was super popular because how we like to operate as a brand is we like to look at the science. So when we did the blue light glasses, the available science was saying, that blue light should be managed through the eyes because apparently only the circadian rhythm was was in the brain. But then a study came out in 2019 that changed everything. It showed that we had little tiny body clocks all in our skin cells. So the skin could tell the time of day just by the light that's shining on it. So we could, you know, if we're under blue light all day and all night, the dehydration that's taking place is going to be profound. So that's where we went into the circadian lighting, didn't we? And then evolved into red light therapy from there. Yeah.

What do you think of this light that we're in right now? I was like, I bet they're going to be wearing glasses. I've actually worn glasses in here before. I can't remember if you were. And one of my guests did too because, you know, I'm in here all day sometimes. And even just today, three hours back to back to back. Yes. It's like I, I mean, dehydration.

Like I come out and I'm like so off my axis. Like I don't know how else to describe it. My brain feels fried. I feel my face is like shriveled and all of the things. Yeah. There's a lot of things that play, isn't they? It's obviously, it's incredibly bright for a start. That's hard for your eyes to process.

It's the artificial blue element in the light that's going to dehydrate your skin. The flicker as well will probably cause you some eye discomfort and possibly headaches. But then that's when you go home and lean into red light therapy and harness the restorative benefits that that has to offer to counteract the environment that you've been in during the day. Let's dive into red light. And there's red light. There's near infrared light. There's far infrared. I think we all hear these terms and I think there's the blanket term of red light.

Red light masks, you know, but they do so much more than that. So let's talk about the difference between all of those. Yeah, I'm glad you touch upon that. It's something that we come across a lot that people don't understand that there's a different frequencies and B, that they have different properties and benefits to them. So exactly as you said, there's red, neonphred and far infrared and they all have different properties and benefits. So the most one that people are most familiar with is red light because it glow.

red, it has a color, it gives off a visual cue that it's a red light. That is the frequency that's used to target skin. So it's great for that surface level to do fine lines, wrinkles, complexion, tone, texture. Near and Fred penetrates deeper. It actually doesn't have a color, it's invisible, and that penetrates deeper through to the muscles and the joints. So that's great. Primarily from a wellness standpoint, because it's good for recovery and energizing yourselves and great for overall well-being and longevity, but it is also good from a beauty angle as well because it does relax the muscles and if you're relaxing the muscles the skin then isn't pulling with the muscle and in turn creates that more smoother reduced fine lines and wrinkles and then you have far-infred

which is probably the one most people do but think they're doing red light therapy because that is used in saunas so it's used for its heating properties it directly heats the body rather than the air around you so it's quite an efficient way to do a sauna however it's not going to target your skin like red light does and it's not going to penetrate deep like near in front of you so on it's quite an efficient way to do it's infrared does. So we come across it a lot, don't we, Andy? That a lot of people say that they're doing red light therapy because they do an infrared sauna in their gym, but they're only doing far infrared and they're missing out on the benefits that red and near infrared have to offer. So in an ideal world, you would do all three from a holistic beauty and wellness and longevity standpoint.

Yeah, I remember I got a DM in the last few days from somebody, I think when I posted the mask. Yeah. And she said, well, I do sauna. And I think the sauna had light as well, had red light as well. And she said, is that enough or should I be doing the mask as well? So this is where, you know, distance and light distribution and all that comes into play. So tell us about that. Yeah. It's confusing with the saunas because they typically put a red glow in there, but it's not got high enough irradiance to have any impact at a cellular level. I guess the difference between visible red and the red that you can see in red light therapy is you can have bulbs with red light. So the ones that we were briefly,

mentioning earlier, where we put them in our house. And that's great because the eyes and the skin sensed it and reduce cortisol levels down and increase melatonin, which is great for getting ready for bed, but not great from a therapeutic standpoint. When you get to a therapeutic standpoint, you've got to be within that sort of three to six, maybe nine inches away from the red light. But it also has to be a specific irradiance. Now what we mean by irradiance is how powerful the LED bulbs are within the mask or the device. and they need to be in a big panel, if you're looking to target, say, muscles and joints,

that needs to be over 100 millawatts per centimeter squared. That's the terminology. And if you're using a face mask, it needs to be over 40. And if you're using just standard bulbs or sitting in a far infrared sauna, the irradiance is going to be single digits and nowhere near enough to be able to produce the effects that you would from a therapeutic mask or panel. And then the other question that I get a lot, and there is some pushback from you know, dermatologists and people in the industry is that the irradiance isn't strong enough

in at-home devices, right, to make any kind of difference. For me, I'm like, well, I use it every day and it had a massive impact on my skin. And I know that I'm not the only one, but can you speak to that as well? Yeah. Yeah, they're absolutely right. The biggest problem with a lot of the masks on the market are the irradiance just doesn't cut it. Now, where irradiance comes in, if it's lower than the 40 millawatts per centimeter squared that I mentioned in a mask, basically means you just got to wear it for longer. So every time you're dropping the irradiance, the longer your sessions are going to have to be. So with our mask, for instance, and there's a couple of others on the market that are similar

that deliver over that 40 milliwats, you wear it for 10 to 15 minutes, three to four times, maybe five times a week, and you're going to get the benefits that it promises. You're going to smooth out the fine lines and wrinkles. You're going to boost the fibroblast manufacturer, which will lead to more collagen production. But if you then take a mask with half the irradiens, you're going to have to wear it for, I think it's maybe four or five times more. It doesn't just half and then double the amount of time. So you might have to wear the mask for an hour a day.

Or if it drops again, maybe it's two hours a day. And then it just becomes impractical. So what the dermatologists are saying is absolutely correct. There's so many masks you can buy out there for maybe $100, $150 from Amazon that, you know, by reading the description, like they're going to be this miracle skincare device, but when you actually look deeper into your radiance, then there becomes an issue. And this is a subject we really like to talk about because Katie and I and the brand, we really like to educate because we know that not everyone will want to shop and buy a bond charge mask. Maybe the black color is not appealing to them. Maybe

they want a red one or a pink one or a white one or maybe they have a stronger affinity to another brand. But we want to be able to empower people to understand the science. because it is complicated. There's so many masks out there, what do you choose? So you've really got to look at that irradiance level. And if it's below 40 and they can't prove that they've had third-party testing on the irradiens, then you want to look at another brand. And should people look for a mask that has red and near infrared?

I'd say so. You know, you want to get the benefits of both, don't you? You know, it's great to target the fine lines, wrinkles, tone and texture. But if you can target the muscles as well, that's going to have a profound impact on your overall complexion, even more so. you know, if you can relax those muscles, you're doubling down on the benefits of reducing the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles and just creating more of a contoured sculpted look, which we're all after as we age in the go south.

Yeah. That's a really good point actually you make about the relaxing of the muscles because the red light is the one that's stimulating more of that fibroblast production, which more collagen is then going to equal the smoothing of the fine lines and wrinkles. The appearance of aging is going to look a lot less, which is fantastic. But actually when you use the near-infrared light, that's that preventative frequency of light, where when the muscles are relaxed and you're not all clenched, you're not going to then develop the fine lines and wrinkles as quickly. Tell us why somebody might use near-infrared, but not red.

I guess it comes down to what they're looking to achieve. We like to create a product that's just versatile for the individuals that can cater to whatever they're trying to do at any given time. But a lot of people like to use the near-infrared setting without the red light. if we're talking specifically about the face mask here. Because it is soothing, it does relax the muscles. And we hold a lot of tension in our face. You know, if you're sat at a desk all day, if you're talking all day, like yourself, you know, recording podcasts for hours after hours, there's a lot of tension in the jaw.

And the near infred frequency can then relax that tension, ease the discomfort in the face without having to constantly use red light therapy as well to target the skin tone and texture. Because you can do too much red light therapy. You know, you don't need to do it. Tell us about that. Every single day, you know, it's fine to do every single day. And I think there's a sweet spot. It's between 15 to 20 minutes and past that, there are no more benefits.

It kind of caps out. And there's been studies that show that some athletes have used it multiple times a day. Now, the average person isn't going to do this, but some athletes have used it multiple times a day. And the benefits actually start to decrease. Because if you think about it, it's over-stimulating the body. Do you build up a tolerance to it, or it's just... It's more just the overstimulation with anything. The body needs time to just decompress and come down from anything that's happening to it.

Even if it's a good practice, think of it like a massage. You couldn't have manual massages multiple times a day. It's too overstimulated. Yeah, true. It feels nice. But I get your point. After a while, it just becomes too much for the body. And the same happens with red light therapy.

It's too overstimulating. The body needs time to process what it's received. And sometimes less is more. And that is another beauty of red light therapy, you know, 15, 20 minutes once a day or even three, four times a week is enough to receive benefits. I've been using bond charge for a couple years now, maybe. And I have it stack. Like it's so, and that's what I love about all of these things.

Like they don't take from your day. They add to your day. And like the mask I'll do when I do my morning meditation. And it's actually made it so that not only am I more consistent with the mask and my morning meditation is like 12 minutes. It's made me meditate every day too because I'm like, this is the time where I do like do the meditation, do the skincare. And so I'm doing it pretty much every day. And that consistency at that short amount of time is what has gotten me the most results versus doing a longer amount of time with this other one. And it felt more like a chore. You don't end up to you

know. And it's exactly what you just said. Consistency. That's literally all it is. You have to be consistent. Yeah. And if a practice isn't sustainable, you're not going to be consistent. And then therefore you won't see the results. And I think that's why the at home beauty and wellness industry has taken off so much is people find it hard to be consistent when they have to physically go somewhere, either to a salon, to book an appointment, or even just to sometimes go to the gym and do your sauna or red light therapy there. They want it in the convenience of their own home where they can have it stack and do a red light face mask whilst cooking for the kids or doing a meditation or yoga in front of a large panel or just taking your sauna whilst watching TV

or reading a book. So it's all about convenience now. We're all so busy, have so much going on in our lives, we are not going to adopt holistic wellness and beauty practices if it's not convenient. And that's the be all and end all of it. Yeah, absolutely. Another question that I get a lot, which I know you and I have DM'd about in the past is what ordered to do is skincare and red light. Do you do skincare then red light or red light then skincare? Yeah, I do it on freshly cleansed skin with no serums or anything on and then I put them on after. That's correct. Okay. Yeah, you want to be doing it on bare skin for a number of reasons. One, you don't know how the ingredients of your topical skincare products are going to interact with the red light therapy on your particular skin because everyone's skin is different.

But secondly, you want it bare so it can penetrate through as deeply as possible. So any layer you're adding on, you're just adding another barrier for it to have to break through. And I think we also spoke about when to use red and ear and thread as well because that is super important. So you have to think about when these frequencies are present in nature because we're all about aligning our body clocks to nature. and even your beauty practices can disrupt your body clock and impact your sleep if they're done at the incorrect time. And one thing a lot of people don't realize is that near and Fred is present during the day, but not so much in the evening and in the night. So if you are using the near and Fred setting on your panels or your red light face masks, that's better done in the day. Whereas red light therapy, the red color, you can do any time of day because it's present day.

And in the night, it's not present, but it has sleep benefits under melatonin producing. properties to it as well. So always do the near and fred in the day if you can. And the blue was a big decision for us to remove, wasn't it, Andy? Yeah, the blue, the blue is fantastic from a therapeutic standpoint at targeting acne. So that's how it's been tested with the FDA, the TGA and other European medical bodies. But the main issue with using blue light is that whole, going back to the whole thing we're talking about earlier, it dehydrates the skin. So the way blue light works is it energizes us during the day. It can make us feel alert and a weight. But from a sort of skin level, it's damages the cells in the skin. And that's great if you're targeting acne because you want those

cells to be destroyed. But then it's damaging the rest of the skin. So studies more recently have used 630 and 660 red light, the visible frequencies, to look at acne. And it's actually been as just as beneficial as the blue, but without the dehydration effects as well. So that's a major concern when it comes to looking at more, I guess, skin concerns when it comes to the acne, blemishes, pimples, things like that. But the other thing is you're then kind of pigeonholed into when you can use that mask. Red light you can use all day and all night. That's no problem. Near infrared during the day, no problem. But if blue light is in a mask, you can only really use that around solar noon because any other time of the day, you're just going to disrupt your body clock because that

blue, that frequency of blue light that you're finding the masks isn't present outside of around midday to 1 p.m. So yes, you might get some benefits, but you're going to dehydrate your skin and disrupt your body clock. So that's why we pulled it out. But it also sort of spikes your cortisol as well, you know, and we know how that makes you look and feel. Yeah. So I, yeah, it was one of those decisions that, yes, we've seen the studies on how good blue light is at treating acne, but red light therapy can do it without the dehydration and the cortisol spikes. So to me, that was a no-brainer to go with that. That's interesting. Yeah, I've never heard that. So kind of on that note, What are the effects that we're seeing in skin as a result of staring at our phones all day?

Everything that artificial blue light does is compounded through our phone and the fact that we're constantly just bombarding our face with this strong, intense artificial blue light. But also the posture. Yeah. You know, we're constantly looking down. It's making everything sag. Our spine is then curving. Everyone's like, yeah, it's true. And that then creates a completely different.

facial structure, you know, when your spine and your neck start to curve, it's going to impact your jowls, it's going to impact that turkey neck that we're all trying to fight against. And it all comes down from the phone and the posture and the light and as well, what we're consuming from the phone is a big thing that we need to be mindful of as well. Exactly that. A big one for me with the phone is the thyroid. There's been some studies coming out of Japan that shows that blue lights impacting hormone production by shining blue light on the thyroid. So when we're overstimulating that thyroid, we're going to mess up our endocrine system.

And how do people hold that phone? They're like this. And it's just, especially after dark when you see it. Like, I see it a lot because we travel quite a bit. So I see it on the plane a lot when I'm getting up to use the bathroom or just go for a walk to stretch my legs. And people are sat there with just light all illuminating around that throat area. And it's just, oh, God. That was me.

Yeah, last night. We are all guilty from time to time. I was on the longest flight ever from L. Oh, wow. And it was just, yeah. I mean, but I think that that probably lends itself. I was saying that when I fly, I get really dysregulated. Yeah.

And we were talking about PEMF. And I was saying how grounding I've found that to be. And I'm super sensitive, which is a good thing. Yeah. I used to see it as a bad thing. And then my acupuncturist was like, no, this is good because you respond to things really quickly too. So I'm affected by things really easily, but I respond to treatment really well as well. So something like PEMF, which it means.

admittedly the first time when I tried it, I had no idea what it was, and it seemed a little woo-woo. A lot of people say that. Yeah. I was like, whatever, I'll give it a shot. And, oh, my goodness. I mean, so good, right? So good. But I still need to understand better how it works.

So let's talk about, you know, we've been talking about light frequencies and all of that. How do frequencies play into PEMF? Yeah, I guess the reason people find it hard to understand is it does sound woo-woo. Yeah. That there's frequencies. You can't see it. can't feel it. There's no vibration, even though it says pulsed in the name, there isn't

actually a vibration that you physically feel. But what it comes down to, it's probably easier to look at it from a standpoint that people are more familiar with, which is grounding. A lot of people are familiar with the term where you take your shoes and socks off. You stand on the earth and you connect with the Earth's magnetic field. And in turn, that then filters through to your body and it connects you with the Earth's magnetic field, which is the human resonance to reduce inflammation to calm, to centre, and bring a state of well-being. That is a certain frequency. What a pymph mat does is take other frequencies that are found naturally in nature and pulse those through to your body to bring on a certain state or a certain sort of condition that

you're looking to achieve. So for example, our pampfmatt has alpha waves, delta waves, beta waves, and beta waves as well. Delta is what your body naturally falls into when you're in deep sleep. That's the frequency that your brain operates at. So if you lie on a mat or sit on a mat and pulse delta waves into your body, your body's going to naturally mimic that frequency, which in turn will then put you into a deep sleep. And the way it works is the body always wants to try and conserve energy, and it does that by adapting to the environment that it's in. And you probably feel it when you walk into a supermarket or a hectic mall. If it's super, super busy and super energetic, you feel it. You start to feel pelt up. Your cortisol lever rises. You feel

bit anxious, maybe a bit stressed. And that's because you're trying to remake the environment that you're in, and that's not in a good way. But if you use a PemphMAT to put yourself in contact with a frequency that's beneficial and that is found naturally in nature, you can then bring on a certain state of well-being in your own body. And it's great for meditating. It's great for focus, depending on what frequency that you dial into. It's kind of like your own little charger, I guess. You can just choose how you want to feel, how you want to be, connect with that frequency, pass it through to your body, and you will naturally mimic that frequency and fall into that state. Yeah, amazing. Well said. You can also, like that's from a sort of well-being standpoint. It's really interesting because brain waves and our cells all oscillate in a certain way. So when a cell starts to rotate, it rotates because of the pull of the gravitational pull of the earth, and that's the human resonance. And that's in the most natural state.

and healthy state you can be from a cellular level. But when we start surrounding ourselves by around with other frequencies of EMF, like 5G, Wi-Fi, cellular networks, our cells start to mimic that. And that's bad EMF. But within nature, there's actually natural frequencies, apart from the Schumann resonance, such as, you know, the alpha, the delta, the beta waves, that our bodies love to be in at specific times of the daylight. If we want to be in a parasympathetic state, then we want those Delta waves, if we want to be in a creative state, we'll want those alpha waves. Now, the other way that PEMPF works from a medical standpoint, and the studies have started to come out to show this, is when there's been a fracture. So if someone's broken a bone, the electromagnetic pathway between

those two breaks, so one on each side is severed. And over time, those need to start to communicate back to each other to be able to heal. And then what happens is, When you actually start using pemp frequencies, that communication is automatically tied back to both of the fractures on either side, which means the communication can happen sooner, meaning that the healing of that fracture happens quicker. So it actually stimulates osteoblasts, which then lead to the healing of that fracture through the reconnection of communication between the two bones. Wow. If there are studies that support this, how long do you think it would take for? this kind of treatment to become more mainstream, especially in the medical community. Because I feel like it's still very, it's considered a little bit fringe, you know, all of

these things. I think dermatologists are more open to red light or light therapy. But again, like we were saying before, you know, it really depends on the irradiance and the strength of that. But I feel like with this, it's just not even part of the conversation at all. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. And unfortunately, I think we're probably years off. It's sad to say, if it even does enter the medical industry. Yeah, it's such a new technology. The FDA has conducted or allowed studies to be conducted on the medical application of PEMF. And we use it in a really extreme form already in hospitals called TENS,

which is great for really stimulating nervous systems and people that have got really, really horrible conditions. I think it will get there. I think hyperbaric oxygen is another one in the medical community that studies are starting to come out that you really can't have the mainstream arguing against because more and more are coming out. I don't know, maybe five, six years for it to start to come to sort of fruition. But as with anything, the biohacking community typically launch and understand these products a good decade before the mainstream start to go, okay, well, maybe there's something to this.

Yeah, I mean, blue light, that's been part of the conversation in biohacking for at least a decade, right? maybe a little bit more. And that was something that wasn't really considered either. And now it's very common knowledge. We're still not seeing it mainstream, though, are we? We're struggling to see it in hotels and gyms. They're still not leaning into circadian friendly lighting.

There have been a few places where I've gone where, I'm trying to remember, I think maybe the proper. Yeah, okay, good. Maybe I could be getting that wrong. This is good. I've seen it pop up in a few places, but for the most part. Yeah. No.

Yeah. The US will always lead the way, though. That's the thing like from Australia and the UK. That will be another five years on from there. Actually, it's probably unfair. It's probably more California that lead the way. Yeah. And then the rest of the US, then UK, Europe and then Australia, maybe 20 years later.

California has always been on its own path. You open to things. With all of that stuff. Yes. Very, very. And I mean, there's such a massive wellness community there and such a focus on wellness and a big biohacking community and you have to be inquisitive and be open to exploring new modalities that aren't mainstream. Yeah. Because, you know, it is a bit woo-woo for a lot of people or

can get called names for doing some practices. Yeah. But actually with time, they become more mainstream. So embrace them. How long does it take to see the effects of these various treatments? Like, let's go back to a red light. Yeah. How long should somebody do it before they expect to see any changes? because I think people want instant gratification. Oh, yes. That's a really interesting one because our answer would have been different maybe three to four weeks ago. We probably would have said, I'll, you know, give it two to three months and you'll start seeing results from maybe 10 minutes a day, three times a week. And I think that's probably still true for the majority of people.

But then we watched an episode with a red light therapy specialist on Diary of a CEO with Stephen Bartlett. And they actually pulled out our face mask and started talking about it. And Stephen asked exactly the same question to the specialist. And he said within 15 minutes. What? And he almost fell off his chair. I know. I know.

I almost fell off my chair. What? We're like, that's a marketing for us right there. You can start to see visible improvements after just 15 minutes of use of a red light therapy device. Yeah. If it's tied in exactly to the latest science and the highest irradiance and you use it as per the instructions for use, you know, no topical skin care on first. and, yeah, using it for that sort of 10 to 15 minutes. So, yeah, that was a shock to us as well.

Yeah, it was a shock. I guess, you know, more realistically for the average person to see on themselves, they probably would want a bit more consistent use. I think that the study was looking more at the cellular level as well, which obviously we can't delve into ourselves. I think if you were to be critical in the mirror, you probably would want a couple of weeks before you can start to see some improvement. Yeah, I feel like there is this emphasis now on cellular health, right?

Whether it's through supplements, through external things, whether it's through sauna, pimp, like you're talking about red light, hyperbaric, you know, so many different modalities. But again, I think that it's hard for some people to get on board because you can't see it. Yes, it's all happening inside. And we're all conditions to operate on base of how we look when we look in the mirror, what we see in back. Yes, as well as how we feel.

Yeah, it is. And I think we'll always prioritize how we look over how we feel sometimes. And sometimes we can overlook how we look. how we're feeling if we look okay. And because you can't see the cellular activity happening internally, but you might look okay, you just push through, but it catches up with you down the line. It's only a matter of time before those processes will take an impact on how you look, how you feel, how you move, and your overall longevity and well-being.

So I think it is a shift that's happening in the wellness industry where they are dialing more into what is happening at a cellular level because we're learning how much is impacted at that level across across the board. You can start tracking it now that. This is a thing. Like maybe five, six years ago you couldn't. But now there's so many wearables out there or a Woot, Fitbit, other other ones that are coming out every day that you can actually see how you are performing at a cellular

level. You know, you can wake up in the morning, look at your aura scores and go, did I sleep well last night? I don't, you know, oh, actually, no, I didn't. My deep sleep was really low, but I had really good REM sleep. Yeah. So I think going into this era now of sort of wellness 2.0 where people can start to personally track all their metrics at that cellular level. Whereas before that, it was very much like,

well, how do I feel? And, you know, over three to six months, do I feel better? Whereas now you can get instant results by, you know, doing red light therapy and seeing how that impacts your heart rate variability on your whoop, for instance. You can see how many calories you're burning, your basic metabolic rate through doing red light therapy after you've done a run on a treadmill, for instance, or been to the gym, how fast are you recovering? You can start to see this through recovery scores from wearables. Yeah, I'm just thinking in my head, like it would be interesting to look at your scores, whether it's a loop or an or a ring or something, when you're doing the pamp, I would say PMF or sauna even, like calories burned, your relaxation, all of that. That's really interesting.

To have that data at our fingertips is, like you said, Wellness 2.0. And I think people are going to become their own little biohackers. Because they haven't already. It gives you the proof, doesn't it? That something is or isn't working. And then that motivates you to continue doing that. 100% it does. For sure.

Yeah. I want to do a little lightning round with you guys. Well, first, you both have amazing skin. So drop the skincare routines. The skincare routines? Yeah. Oh, gosh. Do you want to go first because yours is minimal?

Yeah. This always happens. I've seen the meme go around. that it has the two pictures of the cats and one's like a Persian cat with like amazing skin. And it's like my boyfriend using soap or is 27 in one shampoo. Yeah, that's him. So like washes his face with his shampoo and calls him today. And it's like flawless.

But for me, it's, I like to use natural non-soap-based products when I'm showering for my skincare. So I use something. I don't know if it's over here called Mugu. It's like so nice. It's so gentle on the skin. It's almost like a baby's formula probably. But it's for adults.

that's really good. But another thing I swear by is fixing my light exposure. So I don't wear sunscreen. I'm not saying people shouldn't wear sunscreen, but I'm out in the first light in the morning and I'm out in the last light in the evening when UV is one and two on the scale. And I find that that really helps to restore and repair any damage that's happened during the day. The reason being is the highest concentrations of red light and near infrared light are at sunrise and sunset. So I'm always getting natural red light therapy. I feel every day when I'm outside and allowing my body without any sunscreens or I don't wear any makeup, but skincare on to allow that natural light to be on my skin.

I'm not shielding it because when you put sunscreen on, you're starting to create junk light because that's filtering UV and filtering infrared light. And that wasn't a quick fire answer. I'm sorry. He's not good at these quick size. Once I get done a rabbit home. I kind of threw this one in. It wasn't really lightning round.

Yours won't be even. I don't use a lot to be fair. I'm much similar to you. I use a lot of natural holistic products that I use the Yucca app to rate the ingredients. But hajoba oil, I swear by herobo oil. It's so, so good. That's kind of all I use with a good serum. Started using copper serums lately.

Too early to tell how that's going in when you're weak in. But I swear by that. And just really simple. I don't wear a lot of. I don't like to clog the pores or, you know, allow it or prevent any natural light from coming through. But the best thing is address your light environment at home. I don't mean red light therapy. I mean void of artificial blue light.

That's the best thing I did for my skin. Absolutely the best thing. How quickly did your sleep change when you first, when you guys were getting ready for your wedding and you first had the glasses? Night one, you see improvements. Oh, wow. Literally night one. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, coupled with watching the rising sun every morning. Mm-hmm. and then blue light glasses two to three hours before bed and yeah you'll instantly see an improvement first wellness gadget you ever loved from our collection or in general either first one that gadget from our collection that was the pemp mat that i literally loved obviously we had glasses and circadian friendly lighting but that was just you could literally change how you felt but from another collection it's probably more recently mouth taping when i sleep it was something i took forever to get on board with, but it really works.

Seriously, really, really works. And it really helps relax the jaw when you sleep as well. So I'm an addict now. Yeah. For me, probably a Shakti mat, I think. I really like those, like the whole acupuntery style thing. I used to love walking on that. Product you would save if you had to throw everything else out.

The hajoba oil again. Oh my gosh. It's so good. Okay. Literally. Blue light blocking glasses. Uh-huh. Mine would be sieve. It's a new serum that my naturopath put me on. It's like a microbiome balancing

serum for the skin. And it's really good, really, really good. It's really glowy. And so I've repeated that order now. I'll let you know about it. I'll send you the link. I think you would love it. But yeah, I would love to look into it. It's really good. Yeah. If you get no flare-up, so any sort of rashes of redness, it's so good at that. For me, it's not skin-goo again. Yeah, that's a good answer. Vitamin D for me drops every day. You cannot, cannot get a enough of vitamin D. It's just such a powerful hormone. Most underrated beauty tool. Underrated beauty tool. I think dry body brushing, it's something that we all,

I think a lot of us do it or maybe some don't, but the benefits you get from it are incredible. You know, as we age or through inactivity, our lymphatic system just gets sluggish. And then that makes our skin look dull. It makes us appear puffy and inflame. and dry body brushing really, really helps get things moving. And you can combine that with doing it in front of a red light therapy panel as well. You're doubling down on the benefits because red light therapy relaxes, the muscles allowing them to contract more rhythmically and push out that waist a bit more. So those two combined are great.

I mean, I'll speak from sort of the male side because obviously a lot of your listeners will probably will be female, but they'll have partners. And one thing that I always steal from Katie is the red light face mask. And we get a lot of other customers that always say that partners are nicking it because I'm good it is. True. Yeah, I'd say that for me. Like I was never really into beauty until I started wearing that. And when I started getting a few sort of fine lines and wrinkles, it was just so good.

And we should mention the chest. True. This is true. Yes, thanks for that. Yeah. Especially women. Our skin, you know, gets thinner and I feel like we lose collagen. at a higher rate than men do.

We sure do, unfortunately. But you know what? We are more open to the different practices to address that. Whereas I think men are naive to it and just think, yeah, well, I'll grow gracefully. But it's things you can do. Can't all look like George Clooney. Have to get some, like, hacks somewhere. Well, this was amazing and so educational.

So thank you both for coming on. Tell everybody where they can find you. Thank you so much for having us. find us at bondcharge.com. And if you want to connect on socials, then it's Boncharge underscore. And if you want to connect with Andy and myself, mine is Katie Mant underscore and Andy is I am Andy Mant. And we'll link everything in show notes too. Lovely. So everyone can find it easily. Thanks again.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you liked the episode and if you liked the show in general, please take a second to rate, review and subscribe. It goes such a long way in supporting the show. Follow the show over on Instagram at well.pod. You can also follow my personal Instagram at Ariel Lori. I'm always sharing great clips from the episodes. And we also have full episodes on YouTube as well if you want to watch in entirety. Thanks for listening. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or

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