Well with Arielle Lorre - 476: The Secrets to Expensive-Looking Hair: What’s Overrated, What’s Timeless & Celebrity Styling Tricks to Start Now

Episode Date: August 19, 2026

Celebrity hairstylist Clayton Hawkins is one of Hollywood’s most sought-after hair experts, known for creating iconic red carpet looks and working with some of the biggest names in entertainment. In this episode, Clayton joins me for such a fun conversation about everything we actually want to know about having great hair—from how to make your hair look more expensive to the trends he thinks are completely overrated.We get into the tricks that make the biggest difference when styling your hair, why day-two hair can actually look better, how to figure out your most flattering hair color, timeless styles that never go out of fashion, and his best tips for air-drying and working with your natural texture. He also shares some genuinely life-changing hair hacks I had never heard before.Plus, we go behind the scenes of celebrity hair: what really happens when someone is getting ready for a major red carpet, the pressure of awards season, his favorite celebrity hair moments, where he finds inspiration outside of social media, and the things that might surprise you about working with some of the most famous women in the world.Thanks to my sponsors:Visit hungryroot.com/blonde to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice.Get $25 off your first purchase when you go to TheRealReal.com/well.Go to Ritual.com/WELL for 25% off your first month.Go to ro.co/BLONDE to see if your insurance covers GLP-1s for free.Visit livemomentous.com and use promo code well for up to 35% off your first order.Use code WELL at puori.com/WELL to get 32% off your first Puori Grass-fed Whey Protein order when you start a subscription.Visit vuori.com/well for 20% off your first purchase. Visit cozyearth.com and use my code WELL for 20% off sitewide.This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. This is Well, a podcast about wellness in all its forms. I'm Ariel Laurie, and each week I'm sharing unfiltered conversations with people shaping how we feel, live, and look. Come for the substance, stay for the honesty, and leave with the tools to be well, inside and out. Today's episode is such a fun one. It is definitely one of the top episodes that I have recorded this year, in my opinion,

because I am sitting down with celebrity hairstylist Clayton Hawkins. He's behind some of the most iconic hair looks that you've seen on red carpets, which we get into in this episode at award shows and all over your feed. And this conversation is basically everything you actually want to ask a celebrity hairstylist. So we talk about how to make your hair look expensive, the trends he thinks are completely overrated, what is actually worth trying right now, how to figure out your most flattering hair color and the styling mistakes that could be keeping your hair from looking its best. There were two life-changing hair acts that he shared, but I guarantee you have not heard these

anywhere else. And of course, we get into the celebrity side of it all. What really happens behind the scenes, getting someone ready for a major red carpet, his favorite hair moments, the pressure when you're working on one of the biggest nights of someone's career, and some of the secrets that he has learned from years of styling the most photographed women in the world. He is so fun and bubbly and funny and charming and charismatic. It's such a fun conversation. This one is useful and juicy and all of the things. So let's get into it with Clayton Hawkins.

Welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. So excited to talk to you. I'm such a fan of your work. Oh, that's so sweet. The feeling is mutual. I just.

The personality is like 90. You know, I'm okay at hair, but people, you know, like to hang out. Not in Kiki before events. That's what I was going to say. It was mostly personality. No, but you've had some iconic looks, of course, and you've worked with a lot of big celebrities over the years. So we're going to get into all of that.

But first, I want to do a round of finish the sentence. Okay. And these are from questions that my audience asks all the time. Okay, nice. So, okay, finish the sentence. The fastest way to make your hair look expensive is... Ooh. Throw, like, a clip in on each side.

side and you're set. Like a clip and extension on each side. Oh, extensions. Yeah. Okay. You know, I think every woman deserves a side piece. You know what I mean? Just like everyone has two little clipins right there and you're kind of golden. And is that because we have thinner, shorter hair in the front? Yeah. Yes. And we just need more. Okay. So it's like the hair, your hair line naturally is kind of usually like the wispiest, thinnest, wimpiest part of your hair. And that's the part where everyone sees. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm always going to. That's good to know because I really struggle with that area. I mean, your hair looks palm.

Well, thank you. I do have extensions. Okay, love. And I hate the feeling of having extensions on the side. So for a long time, I didn't. And then people on TikTok started to say that I had a mullet. That's tough to hear. Although, I do see a lot of young men with mullets at the gym these days.

It's kind of a thing, right? It's coming back. It's kind of a thing. They always look like they're going to shank me, though. Yeah. I just saw somebody, some reality. guy. I don't really watch a lot of reality TV, but I saw some interview. I can't remember who it was. And he had a mullet. And they were talking about how it's really making a comeback. But I will say,

for all of the negative commentary, sometimes they have a point. And so I have tapins, but I just, I like to wear my hair half up. So I think maybe clipins are the solution. For sure. More than like K-tips or something like that. I mean, we can get into all that for sure. But yeah, the sides are important. Okay. Thanks for really me back end. Yeah. Okay. The most overrated hair trend right now is... Ooh, I'm, you know, I mean, everyone do your thing. Everyone do your thing. It's fine. I am surprised to see the return of the crown braid this month, but... What's the crown braid? Yeah, like the sort of like...

The Heidi. The 90s, Heidi thing. A lot of the girls have been... J-Lo just did it. Olivia Wilde just did it. No way. The crown braid, Zendaya at the Odyssey premiere. Okay. I need to go back and look more closely. Which dress was she? she wearing with that. Do you remember? I only look at women from the neck up. Okay. Yeah. I do feel like the early 2000s are really coming back. We were in the 90s and now we're sliding into the early odds. I hate to tell you, we're in the 2010s because the crown braid

is firmly planted in the 2010s. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, I'm old. It's like the 2010s are back. Tessa just said my space is coming back. They say that every few years. I'll believe it when I see it. I just want my pictures to come back. I still remember my past. word everything. I can log in. I have some pictures that I will never see again for the rest of my life if they don't come back. But now it just shows the question mark. So I think they've deleted the data or something. I was kind of popping on MySpace. I'm not going to lie. I had a lot of friends. Wasn't it friends? Oh, friends. Yeah. I had like over 100,000 friends on My space. Yeah. What? Uh-huh. What were you doing? My thing.

That is a lot. Yeah. I was like emo gay boy and like, 2007, you know. Yeah. What song did you have? Do you remember? I think it changed a lot. I just remember Fiona Apple was always, I put her in my top seven friends. Like, it was all real people and then Fiona Apple. I was like, you didn't want to be there. That's so funny. I forgot that you could do all of this stuff. Tessa was saying that that's when she learned how to be a coder. And I was like, we all did at that time. I know. Getting the design and everything. I outsourced. I about to have friends do it for me. Oh, I thought you were going to say you hired some. I was going to say, well, you were ahead of your time. that. What is an underrated hair trend right now? Hmm. An underrated hair trend right now. I don't know if

it's underrated, but I love seeing girls that have curly hair or like textured hair embracing styles that before they wouldn't, like curly bangs. I love seeing curly bangs. I love a girl with, you know, I feel like for a long time girls with curly hair thought they were limited with the kind of cuts they could have. And now that I see like curly bobs, curly bangs, curly shags, I love it. How did you feel, since you brought up Zendaya, about her frizzy hair look? Addicted, loved. It was so gorgeous. Gord.

Yeah, okay, good. I'm glad that's where you were. I loved it. I was like, where's this going? Lived it. Ethereal. Gorgeous. Yeah.

Oh, my God. I love that whole press tour. My friend Ernesto does her makeup. Everyone, I thought they. Who does her hair? Ursula does it sometimes. And I forget the other person, but Ursula's also my friend who does it. I actually assisted Ursula way back in the day.

Really? Incredible. Two more. Every woman should stop. Every woman should stop letting a man tell her what to do. Ooh. Period. Love. Love that. Celebrity hair isn't about perfect hair. It's about... Celebrity hair is about just making that client feel what they want to feel in that moment.

I'm definitely... Not that I'm like a pushover, but I'm not the hairstylist that's going to be like, no, I saw the dress, your hair is going up, it has to go up. Like, if my client says, like, I'm not feeling good about how I look, XYZ today, I just want it down. I'm going to do what's going to make them feel beautiful. So I'm always just going to do whatever makes the client feel good. So another thing about celebrity hair, though, is that I feel like people, like, back when I was just, like, a teenager reading Us Weekly, and I'd be like, oh, my God, what were they thinking?

once you're in the game, you realize sometimes you have 10 minutes for the biggest red carpet. Like, the bigger the star, the less time you normally have. Really? Because they're busy. They have a million things going on.

They're always in the chair. It's always like when you're doing some like, with all due love and peace and respect, when you're doing like a random-y stuff for like KTLA news, you get three hours. But when you're with someone major, you don't always have a lot of time.

So I always give grace when I see like wacky celebrity hair on the carpet. I'm like, I don't know the circumstances. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. I have a lot of questions for you about what goes into being part of the like architecture of a celebrity look, but we'll get to that. I like that though, randomista. I was a total randomista when I was married to my ex-husband and we had. Were you? Yeah. I mean, I was just there on red carpets to support my ex-husband at the time. And oh my God, yeah, I would start like hair and makeup at nine in the morning for an award show. I know. Well, sometimes also you get there early. Well, yeah, we would leave at 11, 30 or 12, but like still, we had more than five minutes. You had ample time. You had ample time,

but I bet you looked good. You know what? I used to make the mistake of this all the time, and now I would do it so differently. I look back on something. I'm like, I would always start with wet hair. Thank you for saying that. I know. I know. I'm like, I can do such a better job if I'm not spending like an hour getting your hair dry. If we can start from a place of dryness, yes. Oh, my God. Oh, the places will go. Oh, the people will see the things that we can do. Okay. I just feel like it's more malleable too. And I feel like my second day hair, my first, my first day hair for me because of the texture of my hair and everything, it just is more poofy and everything. For sure. And you need your natural oils. Yes.

It looks so much better. I remember we did this updue for, I think it was Critics' Choice. And well, now I don't want people to go look. Well, they will. And that's okay. I mean, it was whatever. I was cute. Like, it looked fine. But I look back on it now and I can just, all I can see is the poof.

And I'm like, Ariel. I'm sure it looked good. Nobody cared. I'll be Googling later. By the way, I'm sure it looks fabulous. Okay. I want to rewind a little bit because you said something that caught my attention. And that was that when you're looking at a woman, you're only looking from the neck up.

I know. I have boob blindness, too. Do you? Like, yes, girls would be like, oh, you know, my boobs are big on like, they are. I've never looked. I just never look at boobs. Are you just looking at hair? And face and like aura. How it all interplays? Yeah, just like aura. But I'm never really, I'm like, I'm like old school gay. I'm like, gaga, gay. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, I'm like from like Hollywood squares from the 60s. I'm like, oh, sweetheart. Like I'm old school gay. So I'm really not looking at like women's bodies. Okay. So when you see somebody's hair, what is the first thing that you notice? You know, to be honest, normally I'm trying to find something I like about it. I'm coming from a place of like what's working, what am I into. You know, I want a woman's hair to succeed. I want it to look at even if it's like, you know, my male lady. You know, I'm looking at what's working. I feel like there is such an emphasis on skincare, makeup, the face, the treatments, the tweakments, the this and the that. And of course, hair is a big part of the conversation. But I feel like it's not as high. on the totem pole as it should be. Yeah, it's really true. And the thing is, is that, like, hair is so, like, it's so powerful. And it's, and unfortunately, you know, if you're a woman who's attracted to men and you're

trying to attract a man, like, a man isn't looking at your skin. He's looking at your hair. Like, there could be literally the crone from Snow White. And if she has, like, a blonde wig on from the back, a man's going to be like, ooh, who's that? You know what I mean? Then he sees the apple. She turns around.

But like, that's what men, you could put a broom with a lace front on it and a man will be like, oh, yeah, I'd go out with her. Like, men like hair. Blonde? You think men like blonde? Not all, but, you know, if it's going to be the crone, maybe the blonde will help stand out. Yeah. I feel like we always want what we don't have. Of course.

Because I've always wanted to be dark-haired. Uh-huh. Because you're naturally, you were blonde as a kid, right? Very blonde, yeah, when I was little and then kind of dirty blonde. And even a few years ago, it was very, very blonde. Now I try and let it just kind of... Well, don't you think that's everyone? I think everyone is a lot less blonde than they were like five years ago.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, but I did try to go dark brunette in 2020 or 2021. Not good. Right. Not good. I don't have... First of all, I had the lighter roots as they were growing out, so I had the ghost root. I have a couple clients like that, and we're using a lot of powders.

Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I wasn't aware of powders at that time. time, I don't think, but also my skin tone and all of that. Like, it just didn't really work. There's something really to be said for, like, God gave you the skin, the hair, the features that you were meant to have. You know what I mean? And you can, like, work with them. But, like, there's kind of a reason why you have that coloring. There are some exceptions of, like, some women where it's, like,

you know, they go red and it's like, whoa, you're supposed to be red. But for the most part, if you stick to like what the good Lord gave you and sort of do the best version of that, most of the time that's going to be the most flattering thing for you. I got super into color analysis last year. Uh-huh. That was so fun. I got into watching it. Yeah.

Yeah. Did you have yours done? So I did so many like branded events where they were like, oh, and there was a color analysis person. And then like I would be like, is it my turn? They're like, oh, she left. So like I was promised it many times but never got it. Yeah.

Well, it was. actually interesting because I obviously am not a professional in this area. This is not my expertise, but I agree with you. I think there's a cohesiveness that happens when you are sticking towards the natural features that you are with, right? Yeah. But a lot of these color analysts were saying that that's actually not true when it comes to hair color that sometimes a different color is more flattering for people. I think it's probably the exception rather than the rule. Yeah. But Yeah, I just thought that that was kind of interesting. But I feel like, I don't know, I like a brunette.

I know. I love a brunette. Yeah, for sure. You've worked with Olivia forever, right? Yeah, I mean, most girls are brunette now. Like, I look at my page and I'm like, I need a blonde up in here. I have so many brunettes. I know, please, I'd love to do your hair.

Yeah, everyone is everyone's brunette. It's interesting. But I love to know what my color analysis for me is because the colors that I think I look good in are so opposite of each other. I'm like, I look good in red. Yeah. And blue. And it's like... Those are your colors.

Yeah, but those are very opposite. Ask chat GPT. I had chat do... I mean, no. I, I, of course, I use chat for some things. Yeah. Like, I'm not... I don't want it to tell me that. You want to send your pick. Okay. Yeah. No. Well, I thought, not to like keep making this about myself, but when I was doing that, I thought, okay, I'm blonde.

My skin is usually a more... Okay, I'm actually going to do this with chat after. You've actually already sold me. Like, can we stop the pod for a few minutes? I know. You saw my face light up. Okay, go on. Yeah, I think you should do it on camera, like, towards the end of the episode. Because now I'm curious, too, but I was under the impression that I was a, I don't remember

what season, but I'm blonde, I'm tan, wear gold. And it actually told me that I should be wearing silver and more muted colors, like greens and blues and everything. And I didn't do it intentionally, but I did wear this Missoni dress that was silver and green and blue and everything. And people gagged. Yes. Yeah.

And I was like, wait a second. I actually, I actually am looking at you and I think you're silver. Really? Yeah. This is great news because my birthday was on Monday. My boyfriend got me a silver watch. Happy birthday. We have to replace everything.

Thank you. I just got a silver bag yesterday. I'm a silver. Silver accents. So now I'm trying to transition to silver. Yes. I used to be a gold. But then I was working with all these like Gen Z girls and like, you know, in the early

2020s and they were like, they were so anti-gold. So I was like, oh yeah, I hate gold too. So I, like, started getting all silver. And then I'm like, oh, no, I like silver. What else did you learn from the Gen Z girls? Oh, my God. I learned everything from the Gen Z girls. I'm like, Grandpa Munster.

I'm like, I remember, it's just so crazy because I'm 38 years old, you know, I'm like textbook millennial. I just turned 41. So I'm. We're the same. Yeah. But we're the same age. That's this 38 and 41, arguably the same exact age.

And that's math. I'm pretty sure. But I just remember like 10 years ago, 12 years ago, it's not that long ago. I'm like, I was the youngest person in the room. I was like the young hair kid doing all these like older women. And then something switches. And all of a sudden it's like, I'm grandmother Willow from Pocahontas. Like what is happening?

And do you feel like everyone is younger as far as assistants and everyone else glam teams and everybody is younger? Well, the glam teams are all kind of the same age. It's interesting because it's like the people my age are now in charge. Like we're the photographers and we're the hairstylists and wardrobe teams and we're the ones, the editors of the magazine. And it's, it's interesting that now we're kind of the ones like the inmates are running the jail. It feels like sometimes. I can totally relate to that.

And I think that we were just kind of alluding to this on the solo episode that I was recording that you got to a certain age and you realize there's no adults in the room. Yeah. For sure. We're supposed to be the adults. Are you kidding? 100%. And there's such a big difference between being like 24 and 38. But it's like those years go by really fast.

So it's like, you know, if you're listening. listening to this, and I'm sure you have a lot of young viewers. If you think that you're, you know, a little young sprout at 23, 3-2-1, you're going to be 35 soon. Yeah. And Tessa. We're talking to you, Tessa. Tessa's in her early 30s. I mean, 30. It's a fabulous age. Yeah, it really is. It really is. Because you don't have the anxiety about being 40. Oh, 41 is really good, though. I can't wait until I'm 40. After 40 was a big nothing to me, turning 40. Turning 40. Turning 30 was scary because going from your 20s to 30 is existential.

Totally. You feel so ancient. And we were just talking about this too. I think the decade of your 30s, there's so much pressure because you are made to think that you have to have it all figured out. And this is the decade that you're thriving your career, having the relationship, maybe having kits, whatever, all these societal norms or milestones that you're supposed to reach. and a lot of people don't hit those and they feel behind. And I mean, you can reinvent yourself at any time. But I think that 30s.

I think that's so true. I really think you can reinvent yourself. Yeah. But also if you, I don't know. I feel like if you have your, I'm not worried about turning 40 because I'm like, I like my life. You know what I mean? I'm good where my life is. If I was like still working at Menchie's Frozen Yoger and living at my mom's house, like when I was 18, okay, yeah, maybe I'd feel a little different turning 40.

But like, no, I've got a husband. I've got a house. I love my job. I get to like talk to fun people like you. Like bring on 40. Yeah, I love it. Yes, I agree. I think it's really circumstantial. And I think that if you're not where you want to be, then it's obviously more difficult. But, you know, I mean, I started my life over 30. So we can all. That's young. Yeah. Yeah. But I still so young. People in their 20s, especially, they think that that's so old. I know. What do they know? I feel like I've barely been home this summer. And when I am home, I do not have the time. to cook a full meal. I am trying to cram an insane amount of work and life into just a few days.

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C-O-C-O-slash-Blon to get started on Rowe. Per side effects of GLP-1 medications, including boxed warning, go to row. Go to row.com slash safety. Okay. When it comes to hair, what are the things that people overlook? Hmm. I mean, I think, you know, hair can kind of to be the first sign of a lot of things. You know what I mean? Like if you are unhealthy, if you're

not getting the right nutrition, if you're stressed, like that can really contribute to like hair thinning, hair loss. That can kind of be like the canary and the coal mine sometimes. I can't tell you how many people I know that have gotten alopecia aretta, which is like little spots of alopecia from stress. I feel like. Is that little spots of hair loss? Yeah. And it can be like dime size to a quarter size and they can go all over. And normally if you take care of it and you figure out the stress situation, it can go away or at least lay dormant hopefully for a long time. But a lot of people have this.

And I feel like people are really not talking about this because it's embarrassing and it's, and it's you shouldn't feel shame about it. But a lot of people. And I noticed like when COVID happened and people's lives got really stressful or they were having anxiety or whatever. it was. I just, I mean, I know about 10 people that had had that happen in the past six years or so. Wow. So I think that your hair can be like a physical manifestation of what's going on inside, I guess is the point. And would you say that it changes. I mean, I would imagine it does change through

the decades. And your hair at 40 is not what it was at 20. For sure. Aging hair, all of that. And like, you know, if you have children, hormonal things, things can can really change. But, you Yeah, like my mom used to have like pretty thick hair, like always growing up. And now she's like, you know, she's like in her mid 70s and her hair is really thin. And, you know, of course, I do force her to have extensions. She's like, I'm like, oh, we need these. No. What kind? We do little care links, like the little individual bonds from Donabella. She loves them. We do like a little like blonde bob. She's like, can I have short gray hair? I'm like, no, you can't. You actually can't. But yeah, like your hair thins as you get older. And again, like I said,

especially on the sides. Yeah. I noticed around my hair. line. Everyone. I did an episode where my hair was back. I did like a slick back and I saw the video back and it was the first time because I don't see it looking in the mirror. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, what the fuck is that? Because it seems like it was far or it seems sparse. Sparse. But that's anyone, if you have like a white scalp and the hair is dark or even like a dark blonde or whatever, like I'm always filling in anytime I'm doing a ponytail or an updo or anything on everyone, we're getting like, the, you know, powder color putting it in there, whether it's like the L'Oreal spray root or like the color wow one. Every brand pretty much makes a little, you can use eye shadow. Really? Yeah. Okay. What about the tart one? Have you seen that? I haven't tried that. Every other video on my TikTok is an ad for this tart root touch up. Okay, well, every other ad on my TikTok is for chicken salad chick. Do you know about that? No. You haven't fallen into, okay, well, hopefully your phone's listening. Yeah, totally. It's going to be the first video that comes up after that. It's a restaurant

that only sells chicken salad. It's like a chain on the East Coast in the South, but it looks really good. Chicken salad. Chick. Like chicken salad. Not like a salad with chicken in it. Chicken salad.

Like you know chicken salad. Like the Bethany Frankel chicken salad of it all. So it's like that, but the whole theme of the restaurant is like girly Y2K. And it's like you can get it in a sandwich or they give you like three scoops of like different flavors with crackers. Is it chunky? They have different kinds.

Okay. This is my dream then because I, chicken salad is my favorite thing? Smooth. Smooth. Smooth. They've got smooth options. You like a chunky?

They've got the kicking Kalin. No way. The sassy Scotty. TikTok, I need to see this. What is it? Chicken salad chick. Chicken salad chick. Uh-huh.

Chicken salad. Why didn't I think of that? I know. I think it's like going to be huge. The next big thing. Yeah. Well, according to my algorithm it is. Although a client the other day brought it up.

So I'm like, okay, it's not just my algorithm. A Gen Z? Yeah. She was like, she's like around my age. Okay. Oh, okay. But she was cool. Millennial.

Okay. She was a rock star. It's cool. Amazing. What are some other tricks? Because when I learned about that powder thing, I was like, wait a second. These celebrities don't have these perfect hair lines. Well, everybody also has extensions in their hair. Yeah. Like that's the thing that like, and people are really open about it. I remember when I was like a hair assistant 15 years ago, we would, had the hair extensions would have to hide or like, you know, if a lure or Vogue were coming to do like a get ready with me thing. It was like we'd have to, it was like we were hiding the drugs or something. You know what I mean? It's like hide it, hide the hair.

And now it's like the client will have like a rack of extensions in the background. It's just everybody sort of knows now. Yeah. What kind of extensions do most celebrities have or does it vary? Well, when I'm doing hair on like red carpets, it's a lot of like clippins. So I use a lot of clipins. And I would, I do prefer for my clients if we're going on a big press tour to not have any permanent extensions in.

So normally clients have like, you know, carolinks or tapes, usually like Donna Bell or whatever. But I asked them to take all those out so that then we can, we want to do it really snatched back. We can. We want to play with the length. We want to make it short, long. Because again, now you see people on red carpets on press tours and their hair length can change from day to day. And people are just like, yeah, it is what it is. It's not like a secret.

It's part of the look. 100%. Yeah. People accept it as part of the look on any given day. Yeah. I do. I remember years ago, early 2000s again, Giselle was huge at that time. And I think somebody came out and said that she had hair extensions.

And it was like, people were aghast. Because she was known for her gorgeous hair. But yeah, the attitude has definitely seemed to change a lot or the temperature has changed. It's like fake eyelashes. It's like anything. It's like makeup for your hair. Yeah. You know? I have a friend. Do you know Jenny, Blifer, SKJ, spray tan? I don't know if I do. She does all the girls. Nobody ever tags their spray tan. I know. It's like people, you think you don't tag the manicurist. The spray tanner is even lower on the list of getting tagged. I'm like, why? Unfair. But hair always gets tagged now, yeah? Hair and makeup, we get tagged. Always. Was that a struggle for you in the beginning of your career at all? You know, I think these days on

Instagram, it's, it's nice to be tagged. And I think it's, you know, I always appreciate a tag. Yeah. But I don't think a tag moves the needle the way it used to. Yeah. I don't think it does. Okay. Without naming names, unless you want to, what are. some qualities that somebody has that makes them one of your favorite clients. Because like I said in the beginning, you have girls that you've been working with for such a long time. And I would imagine a huge range of people. Yeah. I mean, I have such a diverse, like, range of clients of like from really young. You know, I started working with like, you know, Olivia Rodriguez when she was first starting out and like work with Addison who's super young and Rachel Zegler who's super young. I worked with Jenna Ortego when

Wednesday first came out, these really young girls. And there are some things. so exciting about watching some, or I worked with Maddie Ziegler when she was like 16, 15, like so nice to be around these young girls who were first starting out and watched them grow. But then I also worked with Olivia Coleman when she was doing the favorite or like, I work with Elizabeth Banks for, she's like my longest client that I've had, worked with Elizabeth Banks for like 10 years who she's obviously still, you know, she's like young and beautiful, but she's been around the block and as such, she's a director, she's a producer and just watching the way she maneuvers and works and carries herself

and how she's so professional and does a million things and as a mom. It's just, it's cool to see all these, the range of like women in this industry. I mean, I'm not just saying it to say it. Like, I love powerful, strong, talented women. Like, I have made it like my life's mission to, like, be of service to powerful, talented women.

And I love it. I was going to ask you if any of them have changed the way that you either look at beauty or just look at everything. But it sounds like they all probably have majorly influenced your perspective. I mean, to me, beauty is just like feeling good. So my job is to make someone feel good in that moment. That's my job. And it's like I'm with people sometimes on the biggest nights of their career. Sometimes I'm there on their most disappointing nights.

I'm there when they win the Oscar or lose the Oscar or lose the Grammy or win the Grammy or the Emmy or all of that. I'm with these people and they're big nights. It's like a lot of times it's like you're with someone on their wedding day every day. And to that's like a privilege. So like my job is to sort of usually I'm bringing levity. Usually I'm with people on their most stressful days and I'm like, let's talk about chicken salad shit. Do you know what I mean? And like that's service that I provide.

And then they're like, oh, I look beautiful too. But I'm there to bring levity, calm people down. down, remind them, like, remember when this was your dream and it's happening? Like, that's kind of cool. That's sort of the job. And that's such a privilege. Yeah. I mean, I've only known you for 45 minutes, but I feel like you're somebody that I would want around in those situations. That's a nice thing to say. Because I feel like we can't imagine the pressure of so many different aspects of the job. One, it's a huge moment in someone's career. Two, the scrutiny. There's just so much that's at play in those moments.

It's like, that's their Super Bowl. And imagine if people were like criticizing your wedding. Yeah, it's like any time that I get stressed, like certain events, like Met Gala, I get stressed every year for like Met Gala. And I imagine and like the pressure that's on me because like, and I don't look at, I don't look on like Twitter or X, whatever it's called. I'm not like searching my, I don't want to, if, you know, of course I will see most of the comments on my page.

I try not to. But I'm not searching for stuff. But like people do scrutiny. And any stress or pressure that I'm feeling, I have to remind myself, like, okay, quadruple that by a million. And that's like what you're just the hairstyle. You're the flea. They're the rat running the race.

I'm just the flea on the rat, you know? Yeah, but you do play such a role in that final thing. For sure. And you don't want to let them down. You know, it is. That's true. Because it's like if someone were, and trust me, people do say, you know, criticize something that the way I look or what I'm wearing.

I'm like, whatever, what do they know? But if someone were to criticize one of my clients, I'm like, oh, I let them down. Luckily, I don't really let my girls down. I don't really do anyone that dirty. I really can't think of any time where I've really had like a flop, knock on wood. Yeah. They're the ones having the pressure. Yeah.

I can't imagine the pressure of something like the mat. I know. I mean. Just the elevators. This is what they don't tell you in school kids, okay? The elevators, because everyone gets ready at like four hotels. I'm like, we're in New York. There's a lot of hotels.

Yeah. We go to a different hotel. What is it? The Mark, the Carlisle. Exactly. The Greenwich, I know last year because I was there. Yeah, yeah. And it's like these elevators, you're waiting in line for like an hour to get an elevator.

And you're just like, oh, and there's like, you know, the style. Everyone's going crazy. People are trying to carry racks upstairs. It's funny. It's a very devil wears product. The Met Galladay is very like, okay. Almost like a caricature of, like, of itself. Yeah.

It's like a parody of what people think the fashion beauty industry is. Yeah. So in something like that or a red carpet, how far in advance are you guys putting together the whole look? Or do you come in a little bit after once they find the dress or at what point are you coming in? So the dress, so the dress, so the outfit comes first. And then once the outfit is chosen, then sometimes the designer, if it's a big event, the designer will have an opinion. And then the stylist will have an opinion. And then hair and makeup will have our opinions.

So we all sort of collab together. There's usually like a group thread, text thread or whatever. And we all throw in the references, ideas, and you usually have a pretty good sense. I've never heard that about the designers. For a big event, for sure. That's some hot tea right there. For a big event for sure. And do you guys ever clash over that?

You don't really clash, but. Differences and visions. But you sort of, yeah, or sometimes you're like, totally, it will totally do that. And then you sort of do it your. way a little bit. But even like someone, like, I've been working with Meg Stalter for five years who, like, her red carpet looks seem like they're so outrageous and they're funny and they're bold. I mean, working with her is like a dream. She's the nicest, funny, I mean, funniest person on planet Earth. But like so much thought goes into her hair and makeup. Like, even if the looks are

like comedic, so much time. I mean, she's working with me. She's working with Alex French, Melissa Hernandez, these are some of the biggest makeup artists alive right now. And like we, even if it's like, okay, we're going to do a spin on Kylie Jenner, or even if it's like she's going to be wearing a diet Coke, like corset that she's made, or even if she's like, I want to have hair that's going past my boobs down to my feet and no shirt, like, we're taking this dead serious. Like we're not, we're not clowning around. We're like surgeons.

Because it's like a performance. It's a character and it's a performance. And it's a performance. And also like the stuff with Meg, I feel like it's going to live for a long time. Yeah. Her stuff is only, like she's like the female Andy Kaufman. Like her stuff is going to like age really well. Yeah.

Did you just see the photos of her and I don't remember. With Paul in New York. Yeah. Yes. Were you part of them? No, I wasn't because she's there doing Oh Mary right now. Okay. Okay.

Got it. She was amazing. I went and saw it opening night. Do you have a look that you can think of that's your ultimate that you worked on? Is there one that you were like that was just start to finish final? look, everything was just... Oh my gosh. It's so...

I can't think of just one. I can't. I mean, there's a few that, like, come to mind where I'm like, oh, yeah, that was really special. Like what? But, like, like, I loved, like, Olivia's Met Gala look where she went with Versace and she had long curly hair and she had these butterflies in her hair.

That felt like a really special moment. I'm trying to think what else. There was, like, this really beautiful... What's it called the Academy Gala? They're trying to make it, like, sort of like, the Met Gala of the West Coast. the Academy Gala. I did one with Rachel Zegler, where she just was like perfectly old Hollywood.

Side part. Side part. I think I remember that. It was just like, it was just so beautiful and perfect. But moments like that kind of like, yeah, coming to mind. You have such a fun job. You're telling me. I'm so lucky.

This is what I did in high school. I had sleepovers with my girlfriends and like would do their hair. And my job is now basically to have stressful sleepovers. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say, it's stressful, but also probably a dream. Was there a moment where you felt like you had finally made it? You kind of never feel like you make it. You know what I mean?

Although my face is on the side of a giant bus right now for Donabella extensions. Oh. Literally, that's going across the country. And my face is like- Like Carrie Bradshaw. When that's what I said. I literally am like, why are you on the bus? Why are you taking the bus if you're on the bus?

Yeah. So that happened this week where I went and saw that. the bus. And we get a big kickoff for like Donabelle extensions because they're going to be like in Cosmoproft. So they're going to be available in store for consumers. So they're doing like a bus store. But seeing my face on the side of a bus. That's pretty major. That's pretty cool. That's pretty major. Okay. I have a couple more celebrity questions and we'll move on. Is there something that people would be surprised to learn about how all of the glam actually works? I feel like everything is so transparent now with social media. You know, back in the day when I did it,

nobody took pictures. Nobody took glam picks. That was like, if you were to be like, can we take a picture of this final look? You wouldn't work again. You would literally get fired. A publicist would be like, this is disgusting.

Like I assisted Mark Town. I mean, I assisted Adverjel, Mark Townsend, incredible hairstylist. And we would do like the Met Gala with Ashley and Mary Kate. And like,

you didn't take a single picture. There's no glam pics. You know, he would be doing like, you know, we would do like Rachel McAdams when she's nominated for an Oscar. And it's like,

we didn't take a single glam. Like, that's unheard of. Now it's like an hour would be allotted to just the glam picks. Yeah. And back then, you would just hope it looked good on getting images. I mean, even now, that's the worst part. The worst part is like doing it, sending your kid off to school, and then being like, well, let's hope nobody like sweaty hugs them and ruins everything.

How that ever happened? Yes, you refresh getting images over and over. Oh, no. I know. That's brutal. Is there a celebrity whose hair people? consistently underestimate because it just always looks so effortless. Hmm.

That's a really good question. Or like how effortless is effortless? I mean, I will say, you know whose hair has always been the blueprint who, like, I hope I have the privilege of doing one day, is Drew Barrymore. Oh, yeah. There is not a hairstyle where you can't find a reference that is Drew Barrymore. Really? Perfect pixie reference.

You can find Drew Barrymore. The 51st dates, remember the movie in Hawaii with Adam St. I love that one. That's like the ultimate beach wave. Yeah. Perfect reds. Perfect like blowouts. Like, you know, 90s sort of like cupy doll feather.

Like she's just always consistently. Yeah. Drew Barrymore and like Sarah Jessica Parker, kind of like the hair icons for me. Sarah Jessica Parker, her hair is looking real good lately. I love it. Like what? I know. It always looks good to me.

Always looks good. But I feel like and just like that. I mean, say what you will about and just like that. And you can say a lot. Yeah. You say what you will. I still love my girls. Same.

They're my comfort. They're like my friends. I feel like they're my friends. I mean, probably seeing every episode of the original sex in the city like a thousand times. No, me and my husband are like, we'll be watching this still when we're like 80 years old on our space station. I put it on in the background. I know every line to everything, but it's the comfort thing of it. But yeah, her hair looked so good in that.

Well, and just like that, it's like you're watching it for the hair. Yeah. You're watching it for the hair and the clothes. Is there a celebrity look that a me? became a referenced photo for everybody. That's the thing that's kind of like annoying a little bit about social media is that like someone will have an incredible look. And then it kind of like gets filtered down and then everybody's recreating their version of

that like in the coming weeks. And that's sort of what I really push against is this like the algorithm of beauty. That's why I like, if you follow me on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, I'm always buying old magazines, old hairstyling books, old catalogs. It's like, I'm trying to get different references than what people are bringing to the table. So, like, sometimes I'll pull the most, like, left of feel. I'm like, Barbara Hershey and Beaches, or I'll be like, I took a screenshot of this woman who's an accident injury attorney, but look at the color here. And they're like, okay. But, like, I really like to have my references be like not just the same press tours that we're seeing

on, like, Instagram. So that's, that's so smart. A challenge. Yeah, different. inputs create different outputs. You need to get different inputs. That's something my ex-husband said to me. Well, it's good. Smart man. There has been a big shift in the fitness and wellness worlds, I would say probably in the last year. And that is with creatine. It has gone from something that was mostly associated with bodybuilders to something every single woman I know is talking about and for good reason. So I take creatine because the research around strength, lean muscle, recovery, and even cognitive performance is so compelling. and building and maintaining muscle is a huge priority for me as I get older.

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my clients and being like, ooh, that was 2013. Oh, I can tell that was 2013. It's, it shows that you've like been living in the moment, you know? Yeah. That's so true. I think that people kind of like villainize that a little bit. But you're right. It is. It is fun. It is fun to look back and be like, oh, my God, that's 2010. I love that. What are we doing? You know, if it's your wedding day or if you're getting nominated for an Oscar, okay, we try to keep those days maybe a little bit more evergreen and classic. Yeah.

For everything else, if you're going to a teen vogue party, pops and blue in, you know? That's like, reminds me of the early 2000s. Totally. Teen Vogue, a bit all. Yeah. Do you remember like 17 and YM magazine? Of course. There are throwback accounts on Instagram and they'll post.

Oh, I follow all those. I remember everything. Yeah. I'm like, how do I not remember what I ate yesterday? There was this like YM cover with Christina Aguilera where she has like, I know the one that you're talking about. Almost like frosting it on her face. Yeah.

It's so the highlighter and everything. It's so silver and it's like almost kabuki-esque, but it's so good. She's got the black and white twisted hair. And it's like that like was seared into my memory. All of that stuff back then, Delia's magazines. I know. I read those catalogs like magazines. I got by Adelias because I do a thing on social is where I go through like old catalogs.

And I don't roast them. I just sort of create like backstories for the characters. But I got to get one on Delias. They're so expensive on eBay, though. Really? They're like $600. And I kind of can't. For Adelius?

I know. Some of my series catalogs are like 100. That I can justify. But I'm like, 600 for Adelias. All right. I might have one laying around my parents' house. I used to save all that. All right.

Well, you better share and repost if I do. I'll chat. I will for sure. Retweet, obviously. Okay. So I was going to ask you if there are any trends that already feel dated. but it sounds like, maybe not. I don't, who cares?

You know what I mean? Like, do what feels good to you. Have fun. Be inspired. But again, be inspired by different things. Yeah. Where do you think we're going this fall?

Because I feel like last year, everyone was doing bobs. Everyone was doing brunette. And then the internet names everything as this is the soft suede latte, maple brown. You're like, that is going to go ahead and be called Auburn. Yeah.

No, I think it's fun. I think the names are. fun. I think if someone wants to have like, you know, the Dunkin' Donuts, Machiatto, Boliage, like, you know, have at it, sugar-free for me. But like, I think that we're kind of going into a little bit more of like an earthy, wild, unkempt sort of vibe. It was very structured the past couple years, even just the way we were like curling hairs and it was very like a modern version of an old Hollywood. It was very low outs and everything was very clean and sleek. And I think we're getting a little bit more almost like a like fantasyish sort of like feathery fuzzy kind of like that zendaya hair like

that's and which is in my wheelhouse i love that kind of hair i love that vibe so maybe embracing more of our natural texture not doing the 90s blowout totally thing that takes hours to do yeah and i mean not to be like you know like depressing but like i do feel like as climate change is happening like we're going to be, that is going to play into like how much time people are going to want to be putting heat on their hair if it's like, you know, 110 degrees. True. There's nothing worse. Like this summer even, even with A. C on, I finished doing my hair and I feel like I need to go take another shower. I'm sure. I know. I know. It's like, there's got to be a better way. There is a better way, right? Embracing my natural texture, which I said that this summer was going to be my heatless summer.

Okay, and how's that going? It was when I was in Europe. Easy, right? But don't you find with extensions you are able to let it air dry? That's what I love about extensions is that like if you're using the right kind of extensions, I think people like you think about like the bad like real housewives extensions of the past where it's like their hair is kind of frizzy and then the hair extensions are like bone straight. And they're trying to curl it together.

And it's like, but now like I said before like Donna Bella, the company I work with that I love, it's like they've got wavy extensions. They've got curly. They've got straight. They've got just like a beachy wave. Like you can find. And sometimes it's like cocktailing. Like I'm doing someone tomorrow and we're doing like half wavy, half curly that we're

going to install. And it's like, if you do it like that, then you actually can let it air dry. And you're not just like putting so much product and trying to like curl it. You can actually, it's counterintuitive. But if you get the right extensions, it can be low maintenance ultimately. I get mine from, do you know, Violet? Shabeev hair. Oh, of course. Yeah. She's fabulous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She did have wavy ones, but at the time, at the beginning of the summer, I do a keratin. So I was like, I'm going to go

straight. But they're not like, it's not that like plastic doll hair kind of vibe. So yes, I just feel like I like my face better when my hair is straight. So that's what makes it hard for me to like embrace a different. Fair enough. My hair is kind of straight, wavy combo. Yeah. So in the summer, it's fine when it's just kind of like wild. I know I want to see it wild. I'd love to see it like wild. Really? Yeah. Okay. I gotta get you to do my hair, maybe. Oh, I would love to, please. What are some tips that you have for people who do want to air dry and embrace the natural

texture? So like finding the right products where really you are just like air drying it. Like Amika makes this thing called frismy knot. It's like an anti-frize spray. Tessa's nodding her, nodding her head emphatically. It's so good. So I feel like after like Dreamcoat came out, like everyone trying to kind of tried to come up with their own dream coat. Amika nailed it. Really? That one is so good.

You can use it to blow dry or to like define your whatever. Just it's fabulous. I love that. My husband loves this like JVN air dry stuff. I haven't tried that, but I love that one. And then again, if you can wash your hair a little bit less and supplement it with like a dry shampoo.

What's your favorite dry shampoo? Okay. This is going to be like a little bit like controversial. I like a drugstore. dry shampoo. Which one? My favorite drugstore dry shampoo is dove. Really? And it's my favorite dry shampoo. Uh-huh. It, they kind of were the first ones. I don't know if they're using the same kind of like aerosol technology that they use with their like antiperspirants, but it actually, like, if my client, if I're on a press store, my client's bangs are like breezy wet, that is the dry

shampoo where I can literally spray it onto a brush, brush the bangs down, and like instantly, it looks like you blew them out. That's a really good tip to sprayed on the brush and not directly on the hair. Do people know this? People in my industry do. Oh, I never. Everyone I know, like all my hair friends, we have like a designated dry shampoo brush. Oh. That literally looks like, you know, it's like. Because I feel like a lot of us are over here. It looks like when ET is dying, you know, when ET is all like white and powdery. But I feel like so many of us are just spraying directly. And then we look like one of the founding fathers. Okay. So that's the other thing. You guys, and I say this with so much love to you guys, to the women out there,

you guys are all spraying your products incorrectly. Everyone is spraying so close to their head. They need to spray far away. Like my favorite hair spray is sexy hair because they make like the most heavy dude. I've been using sexy hair since I was in like during the Myspace days. And I always am like telling people you got to use sexy hair that will lock your shit in. They've got like a weatherproof one that's like humidity resistant. And then I'll give it to someone and they go, and I'm like,

You have to literally spray far away because the product, it has to like oxidize a certain amount. Otherwise, it's going to just be wet on your hair. It's not going to have any of the properties. And it'll say on the back of the can. I feel like people read their like skincare directions. But people are like, well, I know how to use a hair spray. No, read the back of the can. I feel like I read this recently.

And I can't remember on what product, but it did say something like, hold 12. inches from your hair. And I'm like, and 12 inches is far. I know, like right here. Some of them say 16. Oh. Well, that gets a little obscure. Yeah. I know. Get a measuring tape out. What other tips do you have like that that us normal people might not know? Okay, well, this is kind of like a red carpet tip. This is a little bit like cumbersome and maybe annoying for the average girl. But this is what I do for every client when they have their hair down on the carpet. I braid up the nape. The nape of the hair right here the first like inch or two because that is the worst hair on everybody. The little kitchen back there, that's like, that's where it's like your hair is like maybe

it's not even highlighted the same color. Maybe it's a little darker. It's definitely shorter. It's not as long and healthy. So like I just had so many like depressing moments where I had somebody's hair looking perfect on the carpet. And then there's like these little short dark bits that will get stuck to like, you know, the body makeup.

So once I started doing that, it's like everybody's. hair, it looks like flawless. You can have that like perfect thing. So if you're going to have a big event, a big night out, wedding, whatever, try just braiding up that little thing. And like, it doesn't have to be like perfect hormone. Just braid it and then put one Bobby pin up there, tuck it away. It makes everybody's hair look so much better. Especially if you have extensions, too. That's what I was just going to say because I feel like I'm referencing myself so much in this podcast. We're on your podcast. Being blonde, having extensions. I have exactly to your point, these and they're dark.

Ding, ding, ding. And they're wavy. Yeah, and I get. And I see, like, sometimes in photos, I have, like, this line sticking. All you have to do is bring that out. You just changed my life. You're welcome. Changed my life.

Wow. That's a game changer. That's a really hot tip. I've never heard that anywhere else. Have you, Tessa? Okay. Let's do some rapid fire. Fuck Mary Kill.

Velcro rollers, curling iron, round brush. I guess I would kill the Velcro roller because a lot of times people with blonde hair fucks up their hair. Really? Well, it just gets stuck and like fragile hair can get stuck. I actually prefer plastic rollers.

So I'm going to kill Velcro. I guess I'll marry the round brush because you need it. And then curling iron, I'll fuck. Yeah, I love a girl. Okay. What styling product do you reach for almost every single time?

Hair extensions. What's one product most people could stop buying? People spend way too much money on like a Mason-Pierston brush. And unless you're like a hairstylist that's like literally doing like updews or ponytailtails, you don't need to do that. You can buy like a drugstore like you can buy like an Annie's brush and you'll be fine. Should we be brushing our hair a lot? Yeah.

Yeah, we should. Brady Bunch like brushing your hair every night. Really? Yeah, you kind of should. Really? Yeah, especially for like getting like the oil to come down. But I just know a lot of people. will be like, oh, I bought my daughter, her first Mason Pearson. I'm like, your child doesn't mean,

that's going to like hurt their hair. Or people will be like, it makes my hair frizzy. I'm like, that's not, it's not like a detangling brush. Yeah. Okay. What styles are surprisingly high maintenance? Ooh, like what cuts, like what styles are high maintenance? Well, if you get a haircut that's not conducive to your texture, it's going to be high maintenance, you know, if you want that, like, low and out super layered look and your hair is like frizzy and curly, I wouldn't recommend getting that. Yeah. Okay. Blowout or air dry? Right now air dry.

Brunette or blonde? Brunette. Sorry. Hair oil or texture spray? Both. Most timeless hairstyle ever. Hmm. I think just like a soft wave.

Favorite celebrity hair era of all time. Oh my gosh. I mean, maybe like the first thing it came to mind was Madonna Ray of Light. Because that was me being like a little gay boy being like, look at her hair. So yeah, Madonna Gravick. She's always had amazing hair. Yeah, for sure. One hair myth you'll happily debunk forever.

Ooh, that extensions cause damage. Guess what causes damage, guys? Bleach. I know. That's what causes damage. Yeah. What is the worst? Not heat, not extensions.

Okay. Bleach. And I say this with someone that has a lot of brunette clients, and I literally use hot tools, or these girls are getting hot tools on their hair. hair every single day. And if they're brunette, the hair is silky on day one as it is, or, you know, at the end of the year. But if you have bleaching your hair, everything else gets exacerbated. The heat, everything, it's more fragile. I remember someone said to me, you can either be blonde or you can have long hair. Yeah. You can have both. And I have been saying, I can think of a lot of girls who were bleach

blonde, and then they go back to brunette or they dye their hair brown or whatever. They go back to their natural color. And then they start talking about all the things that they do for their hair health. And I'm like, you went brunette. Yeah, in a major way. Like K-18 is amazing. K-18 actually really, really works. K-18 makes my hair worse. What am I doing wrong? What do you put, what are you, what are you doing? What product? I shampoo and then I dry. Yeah. Cal-dry. And then I put the molecular thing in and I comb it through and I leave it on. And then I rinse it out or something. I used to not rinse it out and then I started rinsing it out and then using a little conditioner. Well, here's the thing. It's not like a cosmetic product. It's not like you can find a million

like oils with silicone that'll like make your hair feel good in that moment. But what that product is doing is like it's building your hair from the inside out. So you can cocktail that with like a more cosmetic product that will make your hair feel more conditioned or slippery. But it's like a vitamin that K-18 is actually like going into your hair. How often should we be using it if we're blonde. If you're blonde, I think they say like you start with once a week and then maybe twice a week. But I would just do it like when you wash, like maybe twice a week. Yeah. Okay. Amazing. Well, tell everybody where they can find you. You can find me on Instagram at Clayton Hawkins. On TikTok, it's Clayton Hawkins. ITS Clayton Hawkins. And then I just started doing YouTube,

like long form YouTube videos and I do all the YouTube short. So that's Clayton Hawkins too. And we'll link everything in show notes. Nice. YouTube is back. I love YouTube. YouTube is back in a big way. I'm a YouTube nista. I love YouTube. A YouTubeista? Yeah.

I love it. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for having you. This was really fun. So fun. Yeah. I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you liked the episode and if you like the show in general, please take a second to rate, review, and

subscribe. It goes such a long way in supporting the show. Follow the show over on Instagram at well.pod. You can also follow my personal Instagram at. at Ariel Lori. I'm always sharing great clips from the episodes. And we also have full episodes on YouTube as well if you want to watch in entirety. Thanks for listening. Are you recording me? We're about to go deep. This is my first time. I'm kind of nervous. Wait, did you say come together? You've been spending too much time with me. Hey, I'm Aaron Dana Leachie and this is my husband, Abe.

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