Well with Arielle Lorre - 477: Postpartum Depression, Identity Loss and Rethinking Beauty Standards

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

Sarah Hoover is a bestselling author, art historian and cultural critic whose memoir, The Motherload: Episodes from the Brink of Motherhood, offers a brutally candid account of pregnancy, childbirth, postpartum depression and the complicated realities of becoming a mother.In this episode, Sarah joins me for an honest, funny and at times uncomfortable conversation about the parts of motherhood women still aren’t supposed to say out loud. We talk about her traumatic first birth, struggling to bond with her son, postpartum depression, rage and resentment, and what it feels like when the experience you were told would be the happiest of your life is anything but. We also get into maternal ambivalence, the pressure to be endlessly grateful, losing your identity after having a baby, and why admitting that motherhood is incredibly hard doesn’t mean you don’t love your children.But this conversation is definitely not all heavy. We also get into beauty standards and how they’ve changed, our complicated relationship with aging and wanting to look good, makeup, personal style, the aesthetics we’re collectively tired of, and what our beauty choices say about the culture we’re living in. Sarah has such a sharp, funny perspective on the expectations placed on women—from how we’re supposed to mother to how we’re supposed to look—and we talk about all of it.It’s ultimately a conversation about motherhood, beauty, identity, culture and the things women are often thinking but don’t always feel comfortable saying out loud.Thanks to my sponsors:Go to CLEARSTEM.com/WELL and use code WELL at checkout to get 15% off your first order.Use code ARIELLE15 for $15 off your first purchase at thirdlove.comVisit http://get.justthrivehealth.com/pages/well for a free 90-day supply of their new Digestive Bitters when you start a 90-day Just Thrive probiotic subscriptionHead to dose daily.co/WELL to get 35% off your first subscriptionDownload the Vinted app for free and start listingOrion is offering our listeners 15% off at Orion.com/well.This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Produced by Dear Media.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. This is Well, a podcast about wellness in all its forms. I'm Ariel Laurie and each week I'm sharing unfiltered conversations with people shaping how we feel, live, and look. Come for the substance, stay for the honesty, and leave with the tools to be well, inside and out. Today's episode feels incredibly timely because there is such a huge conversation happening culturally right now around postpartum mental health, particularly

with the Lindsay Clancy trial unfolding and postpartum psychosis becoming part of the national conversation in a way that I don't think we've really seen before, or at least not for quite a long time. I have definitely been locked into everything that is happening with that trial, as I think so many women across the country and the world are. So my guest today is Sarah Hoover. She is a best-selling author, art historian, cultural critic, and author of The Motherload episodes from the brink of motherhood. And to be clear, Sarah's experience was with postpartum depression, not postpartum psychosis, but her story really opens up a much larger conversation about how little we understand or even what we allow women to say about what can happen mentally and

emotionally after having a baby. So we talk about her traumatic birth, not immediately bonding with her son, rage, resentment, depression, and all of the feelings that mothers are told they are essentially not supposed to have, but I promise this episode is not all heavy. We also have so much fun talking about beauty standards, aging, makeup, personal style, aesthetics, and the ways that culture dictates how women are supposed to look and behave at every stage of life. There's nobody better to talk to about those things because Sarah is so iconic and so stylish and observant and funny and all of the things. She has such a sharp perspective on all of it and this conversation goes in a lot directions, but I think there is something that everybody will relate to. So please enjoy Sarah Hoover.

Welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. I put on mascara for you. Oh, you did? Which mascara? You know what I've been using that I really like is, oh my God, I cannot remember the name. But the thing I love about it is the applicator because it's like a metal stick with really individual metal prongs. I got a spora. And I love when you don't get clumps. Is it tubing? No, which I also am glad about because sometimes when that starts to come off, it makes like flakes that are really big. Oh. For me, at least with my like greasy under eyes. I've never been a mascara person, but I had Sarah Creel on the podcast.

Do you know who she is last week? She used to be a formulator for like she was with Prada beauty. She was with Tom Ford for like 30 years. And then she was with Victoria Beckham. She was the one who connected Victoria to Augustina's batter because she was like, You don't have credibility in skincare because you're a designer. How about we partner you with someone? I'm like, hello.

So she came out with her own line and it's for women 40 plus. Okay. Because she's like, makeup is formulated for 20-year-olds. Right. Which is a whole different ballgame. Totally different ballgame. I mean, you don't need anything when you're 20. It's crazy.

And she said they did these studies and like women stop using mascara in their 50s because they think that it transfers to their eyes and it doesn't look as good. And she said the way mascara is made is it has. has teeny tiny little balls in it that you can't see to the naked eye normally when your lashes are thicker. But when you're older and your lashes are thinner, you can start to see the balls and your, you know, your eye skin is a little bit heavier. And so it's transferring. And so her whole thing is like solving these problems and makeup. And she makes a tubing mascara actually that is amazing. Okay. Well, I have to try that because my greatest mascara of all time was the fresh one that

use beeswax. I don't know that one. They discontinued it. I have no idea why it's, I mean, I was using this probably starting in 2006 or something. I think they probably discontinued it eight years ago. So it's been a while. But I love the beeswax because it made it, it stayed shiny and like almost wet looking. And also you could layer it.

Like if at 6 p.m. and you were going out to dinner and you wanted more oomph, you could put it back on and it still wouldn't clump. I think because of the wax in it, you know? And I was like, this is the best product ever. And then it was just gone. They do that to the best products. Like why?

Like RIP to all my favorite products. I feel so betrayed. Yeah. I don't understand. I'm like, where's, how does the math math in that situation? Because it's always the really, really good ones. Yeah. So.

I agree. Okay. Well, now we know. I was through this off. Yes. Okay. So I want to open with a little bit of rapid fire. Let's go.

New York or L.A. Okay. This is so hard for me. I think that I love working in New York. Like, there's no better place to be. efficient, you know? Yeah. If you just want to hustle, like New York is the place. But in terms of quality of life, it is hard to be Los Angeles. Not even just from a weather perspective, but like, it's just so delightful here. There's like great food everywhere, beautiful produce. The avocados are

always ripe. Yeah. I have no complaints when I'm here. I'm so happy, like drinking my delicious orange juice. New York is so stressful, but I do love it for the hustle culture. There's this quote. I'll have to find it after or Tessa, I can look it up. But it's, I can't remember who said it. And now I'm going to butcher it. So this is like pointless. But it was basically, talking about my mascara at the brand. I can't remember it. It was basically like comparing New York to L.A.

And it's like in L.A., it's always sunny and 72. Can you look this up? And I don't look like a total idiot. It's basically like in L.A., it's always sunny in 72 degrees. And there's like 72 interesting people versus like, New York. I don't know. She'll find it. Okay. That's like... Let's circle back on that. I'm committed to the idea that there are very interesting and eccentric people who live in

L.A. There are. But they don't leave their houses. You know, people don't leave their house in general. Right. In L.A. So if you're just like out looking around, it might appear to the naked eye. Like there's less of an eccentricity here, but they're here tucked away and they're like weird haunted Hollywood Hills homes, you know? Well, yeah, you're very enmeshed in like the fashion and the art world. And there's a lot of that here as well. It's developed certainly, like I started working in the art world in 2007 and there were galleries in Los Angeles, but the art scene has really exploded here kind of post-COVID, you know, it's, there have always been collectors here and there have been galleries and there have been like historical, you know, long-time museums,

like Lachma's been around for a very long time, the Getty. But I think the art world sort of gelled here only in the last, I don't know, five or seven years. Are people still buying art? Yeah. You know, I think what we have seen, I've lived through an economic cycle in the art world or two. And I think the truly rich are impervious to market fluctuations, right? So, like, they're always going to be buying stuff.

And sometimes there are global economic events that, like, paused commerce momentarily, you know, like really high tariffs or tax changes or a war. But the bounce back seems to be pretty fast in the category of people that buy really expensive art, which is the kind of art that I have the most experience in. But, you know, commerce in general, I think is slowed. Like, everyone seems to be complaining about that. But here's the thing. Like, we don't need to be greedy. We need the world to operate.

But we don't need people, like, buying endlessly and mindlessly forever. And when I hear these big companies being like, our profits are down, it's like, okay, but you're making a profit. Yeah. Like, why are you complaining? Yeah. Pay people right. Do right by your employees. Chug along. You don't need to be making good jillions of dollars. Just like make money and be normal. Yeah. Okay. I am not an economist. But that's my take. That's my hot take. That's my hot take. That's a good hot take. Don't be greedy.

Right. Everybody. So hard. Okay. Undone hair or a perfect blowout. Okay. I'm going to say perfect blowout, but it's because I don't have great hair. Like I have a mix of textures, which is so annoying because every time I wash my hair, like, who knows how it's going to dry that day? You know, it's different every freaking time. Your hair looks like it's perfect. And it probably dried that way. Mine? Yeah. Oh, my God, no. Okay. Mine is like, 18 dry shampoo. Oh, I love K-18. Have you tried the show? No. I've only used that leave-in product that's so, I think it's, I mean, who knows if it works, but I love the way it makes my hair feel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's such a, like, science-backed good brand. But, okay, if I had like, if I were Giselle, my hair just dried like that,

I would say undone all day, but when my, I hear dries. I look like a founding father. Yeah. It's a nightmare. So I lean into the blowouts. Minimal makeup or a full beat. Again, I do minimal makeup most of the time because like, well, I'm lazy.

Yeah. And I don't know what I'm doing. And I think like if you have lovely skin minimal makeup all day long. But I don't judge. full beat because like sometimes you need to upgrade yourself a little bit for some situations and it can be really fun. Yeah, I agree. Quiet luxury or a hint of excess. Or a lot of access. I want a lot of access. Like the quiet luxury thing has never quite been for me because it doesn't show as much personality. And I'm not saying that the opposite of quiet luxury to me is not maximal luxury,

but I want maximal personality. You know, I don't care if the. clothes cost $2 and you got them in a vintage store or whatever. But I want to see who you are. Yeah. And it's hard to do that if you just dress like every other girl in the West Village, you know, like that's not giving me personality. I just saw a funny clip of Lena Dunham. I don't know what show I was on, but she was talking about like minimalism versus maximalism. And she's like, no. If I'm doing luxury, like why does it have to be like bone mixed with cream, mixed with ivory? Yeah. Where's the personality? No, if I'm splurging. If I'm spending my money, exactly. If I'm splurging, I want to remember.

I don't want to be like, oh, is that my whatever t-shirt or my Gap t-shirt? Yeah. What do you slurge on? Okay. I'm not a bag person. Like, I haven't bought a person. I can't tell you how long. In the winter in New York, I shove everything in my pockets where I keep my hands.

And in the summertime, like, what do you need? Everything's on my phone. I put a lip gloss in my, like, shorts pocket or whatever. Good to go. So I never splurge on bags. But I love shoes and I really cycle through them. Like, for me, shoes are the one thing I don't really keep. Like I, at the end of a year or two, they kind of look outdated to me.

And I beat them up because I live in New York. So I walk everywhere. But I love like a really good pair of shoes. They can make a whole outfit. Same with a good coat in York. A beautiful coat means that you can wear like your sweats underneath and you can still look fabulous, you know? Speaking my language. So those are two things that I will throw money at.

But I've never been a purse person. What shoes are you into right now? Okay. I just bought a pair of flats from the row. Which ones? They're ballerinas and they're red. which I love like a pop of color in a shoe, I think is really fun. And I haven't gotten into the new Chanel stuff.

I know like to ask you because I know you've been a Chanel girl. I love Chanel clothes and I love like historically. I've loved every era of Chanel. And I am really excited for this era too. But I'm like seeing the Chanel mania everywhere. And I'm like that actually like is a turnoff for me. Yeah. Anything mania, I'm like convinced myself that I am special and different.

Yeah. No, just kidding. It's not about that. But like, I haven't died for any of the shoes over there yet. So I'm waiting for my moment. A shoe at that price point to me, I want to feel like it's a choice I'm making because I love it, not because everybody else is making. Yeah. And everyone's making their TikTok videos of going to the Chanel store when it came out. And I know. No shade. No shade. No shade. And like, whatever brings them joy. But yeah. I also like love a sneaker. I love to be comfortable. Like I walk a ton. Yeah. And I'm not like. a sneaker head, but I love a really, really cute sneaker. I feel like they are kind of a neutral that can go with any outfit, you know. Well, you've had such an interesting life. I've done my digging on you. Yeah, I mean, you've had an amazing life and trajectory. And I kind of want to talk a little bit about the period right before your pregnancy and your first birth and what your book is about essentially. But circling back to what I was talking about in the beginning, like being enmeshed in this art world and this scene and, you know, fashion adjacent and all of that. Was there any pressure

to be keeping up appearances? And if so, like, did you feel it at the time? Yeah, I think any woman who, like, leaves their home or even looks at the internet feels a certain pressure to look, to fit into a, you know, culturally defined version of beauty. And I never felt like I matched that. I grew up in Indiana. The beauty ideal that I worshipped as a kid was like, you know, a blonde-haired blue-eyed cheerleader. Therefore, I've been dyeing my hair blonde. I don't even know what my actual hair color is. I've, you know, I'll never see it.

No one will ever know at this stage. I've been dyeing my hair since I was 12. It was like Alley Larder and varsity blues. Totally. That was like the blueprint. Absolutely. The blueprint. And like, you know, I always hated my nose.

I like, I never felt like I could be. thin enough or tall enough or good enough to match up to those beauty standards, which is kind of the point of them. Like, they're meant, I think, to make you feel less than. And so I certainly have always felt that my entire life. Also, weirdly knowing that I'm like a blonde girl who's tall and pretty skin, you know, so like I'm like, if I'm feeling bad about myself, like, there are probably other people who feel even worse. And I get that. But I think that's just the way that like patriarchy makes you feel. And then I also, you know, the art world is like, there are people with a lot more resources than me and a lot of resources in the art world. So I was always around

people who dressed beautifully and had really interesting taste and like could afford whatever they wanted. And like when I showed up from Indiana, I was just wearing my little vintage dresses and secondhand shoes. I remember buying like one pair of Chanel heels, secondhand. And, and saving my babysitting money for for little splurges like that. And they meant like the world to me because it meant that I could sort of play in this pawns that I probably like from an economic standpoint didn't fully belong in, you know. But I have to say like from the outside, I think the art world looks like it would be really snobby.

But at the end of the day, what people appreciate in my experience in that world is if you know your shit, which I always did, because I'm always. the dork. I studied hard. And like if you do write by people, and my method has always been like treat people how you would want to be treated and, and be good to them and don't judge books by their covers and like be as kind as you can at all, and be trying to be graceful at all times. And with those two things combined, I never felt like, oh, you're like not good enough to be here, you know, or if I did feel that I knew that it was in my own head. I never felt like I had to fake it. Let me put it that way. I was never like, I have to pretend to be something I'm not.

Got it. Yeah, I think it's so important, though, for people listening who might not be at this point yet to hear that, like, it is so important to have a skill that is not tied to your appearance necessarily. I think so because appearance changes, you know? Yes. Yes. And there has been nothing more empowering for me in my life than leaning into what like really makes me feel passionate, which isn't just my appearance. It's like the books I love to read and the art I like to look at and the TV shows I love and you know, all that cultural stuff that like really fuels me. And what you look like that can't take away from that.

Yeah. Like if you love something and you know everything about it and you become consumed by it because you're so passionate, it doesn't matter what you look like. Yes. Yeah. If you're putting all of your eggs in that basket, you're on very shaky ground. Totally. And I think a lot of people are putting their eggs in that basket right now.

And I honestly, like, I feel sorry for them because I remember being in a place where I thought that the most important thing about my existence in the world was just my value in the way that I looked. And I, if anyone has read my book or reads it, you know, I like let men treat me in certain ways. I let a lot of behavior slide because I thought I didn't deserve better because I thought I wasn't pretty enough to be worth more. And the greatest gift I have ever given myself is changing that way of thinking. Because guess what? Like people treat the most beautiful woman in the world badly also. Yeah. And what is required to change how people treat you is to like feel powerful in yourself,

you know, despite of all that. I mean, I think all women have been there, right? Yeah. Like I don't think it feels like it's pretty universal. Every woman I talk to has felt the same way. And we've all conditioned ourselves to be like, this is because I'm being treated this way because I'm not good enough somehow. Yeah.

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So click the link in the show notes or just go to just thrivehealth.com slash well and start your gut health transformation. Today, your whole body will thank you. Well, it sounds like you were firmly in your identity before your world was kind of rocked when you had your son, right? Yes. I had worked really hard to get a job in an industry that I was obsessed with. I'd really push myself outside of my comfort zone. You know, I left Indiana when I was really young and I was so lonely in New York and like, you know, lived in a fifth floor walk up with cockroaches and did the whole thing. And but I had a real crystal clear vision.

for what I wanted my life to look like. And I wanted to be a New Yorker. I don't know why. I don't know what, you know, Felicity was on the air. I guess gossip girl came out like probably while I was in college. And, but I don't know what I based this idea on that I wanted to live in New York. But I, I remember I like, I was a ballerina when I was a kid.

Mm-hmm. And I was little. And I remember seeing, I went to ballet summer camp. And when I was like nine or 10. And I remember seeing a kind of modern ballet that like really brought. to my world because I was like, I didn't know that dance could look like this. I didn't know music could sound like this. It's called glass pieces. I still remember it. And I was like, I have to move where like people make art like that. That's not just like everything I see back home.

And I decided like I'm going to move to New York. And it just became like my single mission, you know? And I, I did it. I like got there. I was, didn't have some glamorous life. I worked really hard and I was obsessed with my job, which I loved. And I fell in love and I was obsessed with my husband. And I thought, okay, like, I've sort of landed. Like, I sort of figured this out. I had a vision for what I wanted. I bent over backwards to get it. And then I got pregnant and it all came crashing down. Yeah. So walk us through at what point you started to feel maybe the identity shifting or cracks in that foundation? Well, I remember, first of all, I was like miserable in my pregnancy. Really? These girls out here looking gorgeous and having like six kids. I'm like, we are simply not

experiencing the same kind of pregnancy. That would be me. I just, I know. I gained 90 pounds in my last pregnancy. Like I pregnancy is just, it's hard on my body. I'm just one of those people that it's hard for. I've had morning sickness like the entire time, which is really depressing because it's lonely. you don't feel well enough to like be social. You know, so much of my world is like my girlfriends and going out to lunch and grabbing a drink with someone and when all of that's gone and you're just alone all the time and it's not by choice and you feel sick and your body's changing. I mean, it's just, it's very lonely.

And I felt shame somehow that I wasn't doing pregnancy better. So my, but during my whole pregnancy, I was really committed to like going back to work ASAP. I was like, I'm not doing a maternity leave. I love my job. I'm going to, I'm going to get. get back to the office. Unfortunately, after I had a baby, I mean, a lot of things happened. I had like this pretty traumatic birth, not for any medical reason. Like no alarm bells went off or anything.

But it was so scary for me. My doctor- Especially given your past experiences, right? Yeah. Well, I found, I mean, I didn't connect this till much later. But I've been sexually assaulted in my 20s, like, basically every woman. And I found birth really triggering. So I was dealing with that. I was scared for my life. My doctor, like, wasn't really, like, that nice. I don't know. Like, have you met a doctor that's, like, wonderful and warm? Like, they're few and far between. And that wasn't my doctor's vibe, though I kind of had thought it would be based on. And you're in labor for 19 hours, right? 19 hours. And, like, I love my husband. God love him, but he was useless. He didn't know how to advocate for me. I didn't know how to advocate for me. Yeah. And so that, like, really threw me.

And then when my baby came out, you know, I had been sold this idea. This idea. that your baby comes out and it's all worth it because you immediately fall like magically in love with this little creature that like looks just like you or whatever. And when my baby came out, I remember being like, I feel nothing. And I'm such a failure of a woman because I don't feel joy. I don't feel immediate connection. Like my maternal instincts having kicked in, I still looked pregnant for like months after I had a baby. My body just didn't bounce back. People literally months later would come up to me and ask when I was due, you know? And I was like, where? during those like corsets and binder things to try and not look pregnant.

And I was just kind of miserable. And I wanted to go back to work so badly. And I wanted my old life back so badly. I had horrible brain fog. I couldn't make a to do list. I would like forget the order that that numbers went in. Like I almost was like I had been lobotomized or something. It was,

I had a really severe reaction. I think hormonally. I just had this crazy brain fog, but you hear women complain about later in menopause. And it like slams into like a truck because, you know, after you give birth, you have this insane drop in hormones. Add all of that up, I was a very depressed person. And it just didn't get better for me.

And it wasn't just that I was depressed. I had crazy feelings of like rage. I was so mad at my husband. I was so mad at my doctor. I was so mad at my mom because I felt like she hadn't warned me. And I couldn't do anything other than focus on the rage, you know? And I was like annoyed all the time. And I didn't connect with my kids.

So there was no like payoff to it. And I just remember feeling grief that I had built this whole identity and it felt like it was gone. I couldn't do anything right. Did you feel like you could talk about it? Because I feel like to your point, you know, we're sold this one version of the narrative that like it's all rainbows and butterflies when that baby is born. And like there's nothing better than being a mom and the connection and the love that you feel. I don't want to have kids. So and I'm very open about it.

Yeah. And so get a lot of. Yeah. The pushback that I get from people. not people that I know, strangers on the internet is insane. Yeah. And they're all like, they get angry. I don't know why. You're going to miss out on the most unconditional love. And I'm like, you don't actually care about me and whether I'm going to experience that or not. So like, what is this? But that's the story that we're sold. It's like it is this. And I, I know that,

you know, that can be part of the experience. Two things can be true. Yeah. You love your son, but you can also have these other feelings. But like, I guess my question is, did it feel like you could even express this to other people? No, I mean, it's different now because I think I have different control over the narrative and the way I talk about it is much more measured. But I remember it in the weeks and months after giving birth, I was so upset. And anytime I showed that truth to someone, I'm sure it was in the delivery because I go back and I look at my journals from that time. And I was insane. And my diary entries look like ransom notes. Like they're like chicken scratch, you know, because I was so out of my mind.

And I think that's probably how I talked to people. Like I couldn't say to someone, honestly, I think I have depression. I feel really disconnected from my child. Something isn't quite right. I was like, I hate it. You know, there's nothing about this for me. I'm not good at being a mom. And I think that probably because of my delivery,

people looked at me like I had 10 heads. So I very quickly learned to just keep all of that inside. And I also felt I had internalized all of the messaging about what a mom is supposed to look like. And by the way, my son, my first born is eight. So this is before there were trad wives. It can't be easier now, you know. That didn't even exist.

You know, I grew up in Indiana. Like most of the women that I had gone to high school with and stuff, had like four kids by the time I had one. Not all of them, but many of them. And I remember thinking like, wow, yet again, I have failed to live up to this version of womanhood that looks like Alley Larder and pops out a baby and goes back. to work clear-headed and is magically in love and everything's beautiful.

Like I just felt like such a failure in that first year. And my shame kept me really quiet from ever really even admitting it to myself. I remember thinking, fake it till you make it. Pretend you like this and eventually you will. And I think most women have been really trained to do that a lot in their lap. Pretend that you like this boyfriend that, you know, is maybe seeing other girls on the side. pretend that you want to be catcalled on the street. You know, like we were all kind of trained to pretend.

And so it came quite naturally to me to lie to myself and other people until I like really broke because I was depressed for that whole first year. And towards the end, almost when my son was one, I started having like really suicidal thoughts. And I was like, okay, something's actually wrong. You know, I can't just keep pretending. I have to address this. Yeah. And what was the step that?

that you took to get out of that. Okay, so it kind of coincided. It was really fortunate, the universe, like, blew me a kiss. Because I remember sitting at my kitchen table, drinking my tea, looking out of the window in my kitchen. I live in an apartment. I live in New York. I'm thinking, what if I just jumped?

Like, what if I just walked out of this window? And I was like, whoa, scary. What's wrong with you? And, like, the next day, I had my annual at my GP. And, you know, this is a doctor I see once a year, whatever I go in. I, you know, do my vital. get weighed, check, check, check the boxes.

And that's about my entire interaction with her, unless I, like, need antibiotics or something. And I walked in and she was like, you had a baby since I last saw you. How's it going? And she was really sweet and was just kind of asking me routine questions. You know, how's your relationship? Do you have fun?

Are you enjoying playing with your kid? And something in my brain said, this is a safe space and you can be honest with her. I wasn't fully honest, but I think I was just honest enough. I was like, my husband's annoying. I don't really enjoy playing with a kid. Like, I don't know how to do it. And after like three questions, she looked me right in the eyes.

And she said, I think you have postpartum depression and you're going to blow up your life. I think you're in crisis and you need help. Wow. And it was like the nicest thing anyone has ever done for me. And I was like, wait, really? But I'm not like laying in bed crying all day. And she was like, look, I don't know what you've read. And I had read everything because I was caught.

I knew something was wrong. I was Googling all the time. What does postpartum depression look like? There's this test they give you in the hospital called the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale. I'd printed it off at home and taken it like 20 times, you know? And I was like, but I'm not just this like woman who can't get out of bed. Like I'm high functioning.

I go to work. I, you know, I go to parties. I was going to parties a little too much, to be honest. And she was the first person who really like, I had like imposter syndrome about my own postpartum depression, you know? She was like something's wrong. So the combination of knowing I was having sort of. of suicidal thoughts and knowing that she thought something was wrong, I was like, all right,

we got to fix this. I asked for a good therapist recommendation. I got really lucky because I immediately was connected to a therapist who was like my therapist, you know, they're not at all your girl, but she was my girl. And my GP was like, I'm going to put you on antidepressants. You can quit them later if you don't like them. But like, we got to like fix this. She called me in a prescription.

I eventually started taking it. I felt better in three days. Wow. Three days. I felt like a cloud lift and everyone's like, oh, they take longer than that to kick in. And I'm like, okay, maybe it was all in my brain. I don't know. But I stopped being suicidal.

So like, yeah, it worked somehow. That's amazing. Yeah, I was so grateful. I'm not on them now. I can talk about this endlessly. I've cycled on and off of them for different reasons in the last eight years. I'm not currently on them. But it was a godsend at the time.

I know for a fact that I would be dead if she hadn't taken those steps for me. Oh, my God. That's so powerful. And yeah, I know that you're a big proponent for Medicaid. when you need it. If you're there, like the thing that I didn't know, I was so scared to take them because I was like, A, it's going to change my personality and I'm not going to know. B, I'm going to be on them for the rest of my life.

And this is who I'm going to be now. And neither of those things are true. I don't notice a personality change in my husband and people close to me. I made them promise. I was like, if you think I'm being different at all, you have to tell me. That didn't happen for me. And also I quit them. Like when I felt like I was more stable and had better perspective, I was like, okay, I want to try and get off of them and like see what happens. And it wasn't that. It took some time because I tapered off of them, you know, to do it really slowly. Yeah. But like you don't have to be on for the rest of your life. So if you're really in a crunch space and you're not feeling yourself, like there's kind of no harm in trying it, I don't think. I think one of the big ironies when it comes to the medication, maybe not so much for depression, but for anxiety.

This has happened to me in the past and so many people that I know were too anxious to take it. Oh my God. But what? I got to 22. Like, totally. I got prescribed like a low dose of something when I was going through something really hard in the last couple years. And I was like too anxious about potential side effects to take it. So I never took the anxiety medication. Like that's so cruel. And I know it's such a universal experience. Well, that's the thing that I've learned from all this. Like I felt so much. shame about all of these things. I thought I was totally alone. And the minute I could like say it kind of rationally and with control to other women, they were all like, oh my God, me too. And a lot of these feelings are just so universal. And like anyone out there in whatever they're feeling is probably not alone at all. And that's been the biggest takeaway for me. And once you can like admit to your

truth, I feel like you can immediately find so much like community and connection with other people who have either been there before or there with you right then. Yeah. And there's nothing more powerful than that. You know, I'm so open about my addiction and alcoholism and I've been sober for 12 years now. But it lost its power, thank you, when I admitted it. Right. And I talked to people and I found people like-minded people who had been through something similar.

And like for me, I had been in therapy my whole life. And what one conversation with another person who had been through the same thing as me? different circumstances, same feelings. That did more for me than a lifetime in therapy. I was also lying to my therapist and everything. I've been through that too. I've been in a position. I mean, I think a lot of people lie to their therapist, but I've hidden really dark things from my therapist. Not the one that I currently have who I love my relationship with so much, but ones that I didn't quite click with. And I think that's such a red flag to yourself. If you're lying to your therapist, like, hello. I mean, I think they say an AA, correct me, like you're only as sick as your secrets, right?

And I really feel that. Like, once you have control over things enough that you can say them out loud and use them as a way to connect with other people, the power's gone. Yeah. And the more you try and bury them and like deny that they exist, like you are a slave to something else. And they come out sideways in so many other ways. Yeah. Yeah. Can't keep them in there forever.

So you had one identity and then you had this massive shift. And I'm sure that it was so disorienting because suddenly the identity that you've, had or that you thought you had was maybe not what you were anymore. Yeah. I think it's a crisis moment for a lot of women. Yeah. You know, I think in the best of circumstances, when you have a child, your identity is still undergoes a massive shift. And I think it can like plunge any woman into some sort of darkness, even if they're happy, even if they connect with their kid, you know. So it's a watershed moment in a person's life. Yeah. I actually wanted to ask you, just based on your experience. If you think that we overestimate how stable our sense of self is.

Yeah. I do. I think I never would have foreseen becoming a parent rocking my world the way it did. Because look, like the truth is I'm beyond lucky. Like I can afford a nanny. I have all these safety nets in place that made it that from the outside, I think you would think, well, her world didn't change that much. Like, she still got to live in New York. She still got to go on date nights with her husband. She still got she didn't get fired from her job the way plenty of women do for taking maternity. You know, like my life didn't change on paper that much. And yet, everything was different. And I think, like, you sort of assume, okay, I can weather this storm. worst things have happened to people, but it didn't take much. I mean, maybe I'm just particularly

fragile, but it didn't take much for me to launch me into a psychotic break. So yeah, I think it's a very vulnerable place to be in identity. I always knew who I was underneath at all, but it was so clouded with rage and sadness for so long. By the way, I think like the feelings are valid regardless of the circumstances. Thank you. I think so too. And it can be really hard for people to wrap their heads around that. I've seen a lot of pushback from readers on like the Bell burden book, strangers.

And they're like, oh, this is so unrelatable because her trust fund and, oh, it's who cares? Like her husband left her and wanted to take one of the two houses, whatever. Like that does not mean that somebody can't have a horrible experience. It's the same thing with addiction or alcoholism. You know, it's like, oh, well, you know, they have it easy because they're rich. And it's like, no, I mean, it levels the playing field. These experiences level the playing field for everybody. Humans are humans.

Yeah. You know. And also, I think it goes to show you, like, if it could be this bad for someone like me who, frankly, like, is lucky. Yeah. Then what's it like for everybody else? And like, am I supposed to never talk about it because I have more of this or more of that than whoever.

I don't think that's the solution. I also, I felt like there wasn't a book out there that was providing the narrative that made me feel seen because I had looked for it. I had reached the end of the internet, trying to find someone saying

what I needed to hear to feel seen. So I was like, okay, well then I'm just going to do it. And maybe it will help one other person. I basically wrote the book that I had wished I had had. But I understand that criticism and like, I myself, and I don't know how you feel like, I don't need to read a book that's about someone in the exact same position. I'm in financially, socially, whatever. You know, I like reading about other people's worlds. Yeah. So that's never been something that's bothered me in any direction. I think it's such cheap, low-hanging fruit. Yeah, it's a silly criticism. That evaluation. Yeah, that criticism. It's like, no, I want to be hearing different people's perspectives. I mean. Fascinated by people's different lives than mine. Yeah. I mean, she has more money than I do, probably. You know? I still want to hear about it. I want to hear about people who have, like, I want to hear about people who have, us. I think that either end of the spectrum is so important. Agreed. And it doesn't, again,

detract from like the human experience. Like feelings are feelings or feelings. And like you can be depressed as fuck on a private jet. Yeah. I wouldn't know, but I believe you. I can tell you. It's funny when I see like videos of like girls who are like stay at home girlfriends or whatever. And they're like, I'd rather be like depressed on a jet or like with my bags. And I'm like, no. Like, You've never felt depression or you wouldn't say that. You know, I think there's no, nothing as good as feeling in your power and impassioned by something. Yeah. Poor, rich, anywhere in the middle.

If you are like in your flow and you're doing something that brings fulfillment into your life, there is no better feeling. And the opposite of that, no matter how many shoes and bags and private jets you have is you're never going to feel fulfilled. Yeah. Yeah. Retweet. If you're tired of every electrolyte being overly. sweet, flavored, or tasting like a sports drink. Bowie is such a good alternative. It is a completely unflavored liquid electrolyte that you can literally squeeze into whatever you're already drinking,

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So how did you use that as like a vehicle for feeling better? I remember when I, through my pregnancy and in the postpartum period, like your body changes a lot and kind of quickly, you know? And for a while, I was like, all right, I'm not really going to buy anything because it may not fit in two weeks or after the baby. Okay, I'm not going to buy anything because hopefully like all this weight will start to come off and I don't want to have to rebuy it. And finally, it had been like months since I had felt cute.

And I was like, I'm just doing it. I'm just going to like buy an outfit that makes me happy. Who cares what size it is? I'll get it altered. Whatever. down the line if I need to. And I like put that outfit on and it felt cute for the first time in months and was like, oh my God, this was worth everything. What was I thinking? Like, yeah, it's not going to fix everything. It's not an antidepressant. But holy moly, sometimes just getting a blowout,

putting on lipstick and liking your outfit can like, I'd say 20% make your life better. You know? And like sometimes you just, a girl just needs that. Yeah. And I felt like, especially in my postpartum period, sometimes that was all I could do. You know, I would make little list of things that made me happy in an attempt to just feel normal, like going to get a matcha or with like extra honey, getting my nails done. And one of those things that just like was all I had to cling to was just feeling cute once in a while. I mean, we're made to feel guilty for wanting to do these things. I know, right?

Like should we start calling like golf and NFL whatever frivolous? because like, I don't know, these are a billion dollar industries that we're participating in. And like sometimes you just deserve to do something that makes you a little bit happy. Okay. Yeah. I remember I had this guy, Rameet Satey. He's a finance expert. He has, what was, do you remember what his book is called?

He had a show on Netflix. Oh, wow. He's fun and like charismatic and like not a finance bro at all. And I remember we were talking this is like years ago. And we were talking about spending and men versus women. and I had a new bag and I was like, yeah, well, and I had it sitting there. And I was like, I know it's frivolous. And he's like, I'm going to stop you right there.

Because when have you ever heard a man describe like buying his like such a cliche, but like his pickup truck? Right. Or like whatever it is that men spend money on as frivolous. Never. I know. This man sounds wonderful and correct. And like I think mindless consumption or consumption so that you look like whoever you worship or

whatever is totally frivolous. Yeah. But if you feel fulfilled and more like yourself and happy buying something, why are we complaining about that? That's not frivolity. That's indulging in your identity. Yeah. I want to ask like what are the New York women doing right now when it comes to like beauty and okay. Well, apparently everyone is getting this lower bluff. Uh-huh. And little baby lower facelift situation. Yeah, everybody. I was out a hair appointment the other day, even here. my colorist was saying the same thing. She's like, every single person has had a facelift now, which is like, I mean, good for them. Yeah. I'm like very lazy and pain adverse. So I don't know if it's in my near future, though I'm sure I need it. But I think people are really afraid of filler anymore.

Mm-hmm. I mean, very rarely in New York, did you see the like overfilled, you know, that wasn't really a New York look ever the way I've seen it in other places. But I definitely think people are jumping now to surgery much younger and with much more like freedom. I mean, people, you know, put it on their Instagram and stuff now before they're getting a ton of filler. And then this is it called PRF where they spin your blood and inject it back in. I know a lot of people doing that. Again, like, I probably should, but lazy, afraid of needles, etc. And I think like New York in general, I feel like people look a little more natural. Yeah.

You know, it's like not. It's like Europe. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And want to look subtle. And that's the, that hasn't changed, I don't think. But I do see like younger and younger people going into surgery. Mm-hmm.

I don't really know anyone who's done threats, threading. Really? Uh-uh. Yeah. I don't think threads was as much of a thing in New York. No. L.A. takes aesthetics like to the nth degree. Absolutely.

I mean, so many people here see themselves on. camera. And I think it makes them like so much more self-critical. And then once they do everything, everyone else around them feels like they have to do it too to keep up, you know, and because there's no real industry built around that in New York, it's a little bit different. That's true. I don't know. That's my guess. Yeah. Maybe we're all just lazy over there. I just think here there's more like plastic surgeons and the aesthetic is different per capita. Like it's crazy here compared to New York, but the aesthetic is different. And we have a very blasé attitude here about getting work done. And, and getting treatments done.

And I've always said that, like, I'll feel one way here and I'll go to New York or go to Europe or something and feel completely different. More at ease. Here, there's more pressure, I think, to do things. I think that's changing. And, like, as I've gotten older, I've taken my foot off the gas when it comes to it. But it is a very different attitude, I think. Yeah, I mean, I remember, like way back in the day there was a big thing. Remember when everyone was getting eyelash extensions?

Thank God for COVID because that put a stop to that for me at least. It was so ridiculous. And like the second they would start to fall out, you would look at someone and be like, what's happening with your eyelashes? Like things are scraggly, you know? But even that, like that was never such a thing in New York the way it is here or the way it was here. Like the aesthetics are really different.

Do you think that culture shapes beauty or beauty shapes culture? I think that culture shapes beauty. But there's definitely an interplay and a back and forth, you know. And sometimes it's not. high culture that shapes beauty. Yeah. Sometimes it's mass culture that shapes beauty. I think we're in a phase like that now.

We're kind of lowest common denominator culture seems to have seeped into the beauty world. And like that's not for me and I don't mean it from like a snobby perspective. I just mean like true beauty to me is timeless and enduring and doesn't speak to like a specific moment in time or time period. And I think if you're going lowest common denominator, it will, it can't be like, can't be timeless. No. Of the moment. And you see that.

You see that with trends like BBLs and then people are reversing the BBLs and the big boobs. And now everyone's doing ballerina boobs. And then it's like if you're doing trendy, like you should probably just figure out who you are, do anything you can to figure out who you are. Do all the therapy you need to figure out who you are and who you are happiest being. Just do that and ignore trends because they come and go. And who has the energy to keep up with that? No. I know.

Well, it's like a sport here. True. Well, you've had enough. other child and that one was a completely different experience, right, than the first. And you've written this amazing book and you're working on, I don't know what else you're out here for. Well, my book was option for television. So I'm writing my TV show, a whole new world for me. And I'm writing another book and my daughter, my baby girl turns two on Saturday, which is crazy because, you know, I had a really rough time the first time. Such a rough time that I had to write this whole vast book about it. Yeah.

And I really made sure with my second kid, I was like, I can't have postpartum depression again because I'll die. Like I just, I know how this will go. It will be worse. And I can't have that. I have children now that I feel responsible for. So I took, made a lot of effort to have a beautiful birth that wasn't traumatic and to really feel connected to my daughter from the beginning. And I've had a very different experience of motherhood.

And I feel torn and sad about the fact that I've also really come into my own professionally. And like, you know, I work. in the art world for almost 15 years, I never knew I would be a writer. And all of a sudden, I'm a writer and I write TV show. Like, I have this whole, I pivoted, you know, probably too late. But like, I did it because it's what makes me happy. And it is really hard to have a career that you're incredibly fulfilled by and that you love and want to be doing all the time and also love your kids and want to be with them all the time. Because the reality is you can't be in two places at once. And no one ever questions when a man chooses work over being with their kids. But there's a lot of

of like pressure and guilt that comes with those choices when you're a woman. And I like grieve that it is unfortunate truth that you can't be in two places at once. And every time I'm like out on book tour, I miss my daughter's first steps or whatever. And every time I'm with the kids, I feel pulled like I'm not doing enough at work. And it's tough. But this is the life I have chosen. Well, and I think you're modeling for them. They might not understand it now, but they will. And they'll appreciate it when they're older. And that's so important. for themselves when they're forming their own identities. Yeah.

Yeah. I really want to especially, well, for both of them. I was going to say especially for my daughter, but that's a lie for both of them. I want to show them that women deserve to lean into all the different parts of their identities. And that can include motherhood, but it can also include work and having a life outside of their home, whether it be like socially with friends or with passions or charity work or whatever it is. like I think women deserve to have that three-dimensional life, you know, for sure. I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Oh, thanks for having me. I could talk to you forever.

I know. We have so much more beauty to discuss. I know. Love to part two when I'm in New York. Oh, please. Tell everybody where they can find you and your book and we'll link it in show notes as well. Oh, thank you. Okay. Well, you can find me on Instagram. I'm at Sarah Hoove, Sarah with an H. And my book is published by Simon & Schuster. I can buy it in any bookstore. I read the I was an audio book myself. So if you are not sick of the sound of my voice and you like audiobooks, I tried really hard with that one. It was really fun.

I hear it's difficult. It is. And you know what's so crazy. I was thinking of it when I was in here because when you record it, the microphone is so sensitive. It can like hear of your stomach growls and then make you stop. Or like if you add soda that day and you like verbal a little bit, they make you stop. Nothing carbonated.

Oh my God. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I hope you enjoyed that episode. if you liked the episode and if you like the show in general, please take a second to rate, review, and subscribe. It goes such a long way in supporting the show. Follow the show over on Instagram at well.com. You can also follow my personal Instagram at Ariel Laurie. I'm always sharing great clips from the episodes and we also have full episodes on YouTube as well if you want to watch an entirety. Thanks for listening.

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