Well with Arielle Lorre - 5: REBECCA ZUNG - Getting What You Want in Life and Business

Episode Date: May 15, 2019

In this episode Arielle talks to attorney and master negotiator Rebecca Zung about how to be our best selves in work and tricky interpersonal situations. Arielle and Rebecca discuss at length the importance of knowing our self worth and representing that to others, and then they tackle other topics from dealing with haters to misogyny. Rebecca Zung is one of the Top 1% of divorce attorneys in the country, having been recognized as a Best Lawyer in America by U.S. News and World Report and Legal Elite by Trend Magazine. A master negotiator who has presented as the keynote speaker to some of the most recognized corporations and association in America, she is also a bestselling author and host of top podcast, Breaking Free: A Modern Divorce Podcast. A sought after major media contributor, she has been featured in or on Extra TV, Forbes, Huffington Post, Newsweek, Time, Dr. Drew, NPR Talk Radio, Good Day New York and CBS Los Angeles among others. For more, listen to Rebecca Zung and partner Susan Guthrie here: "Breaking Free: A Modern Divorce Podcast" Mondays on ITUNES and podcast directories everywhere.  And download a free copy of Rebecca Zung's popular book here!   For Arielle's cookbook:https://theblondefiles.com/the-blonde-files-cookbook/ Follow Arielle here on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ariellelorre/ And catch up with Arielle here on YouTubeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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would auto-hue without your rice-adviseur or sunnycars. combe. You're listening to Over the Influence. I'm your host.

Ariel Lori. I'll be talking to movers and shakers in the world of wellness and beyond, and people who have had their own interesting journey, whether it be physical, mental, spiritual, or professional. Thanks for joining. Let's get into it. Hello, hello. Welcome back to the podcast, or welcome to the podcast if you're new. I never quite know how to do an intro, so. feels pretty awkward, but I am recording today from our apartment in New York, and we're very high up, but sound travels, and there are a lot of typical city noises that I can hear. I'm not sure if they're getting picked up on the mic, but I'm a little nervous nonetheless, so I'm going to just do a really quick intro to today's episode.

and not do the whole chit-chat thing. So today I have Rebecca Zung. She is one of the top 1% of divorce attorneys in the country, having been recognized as a best lawyer in America by U.S. News and World Report and Legal Elite by Trend magazine, a master negotiator who is presented as the keynote speaker to some of the most recognized corporations and associations in America, She's also a best-selling author and host of a top podcast that I was a guest on a while ago called Breaking Free, a modern divorce podcast.

And she's also a major media contributor. She's been on Extra Forbes, Huffington Post, Newsweek, Time, Dr. Drew, NPR, Good Day, New York, CBSLA, and many more. So I'm really excited to have her on the show. So I had Rebecca on to talk about having it your way, how to get what you want in life and in business. And this is actually a huge part of wellness that I think gets overlooked. We all work, or most of us, we all have interpersonal relationships, whether that's with colleagues or with significant others or friends. and we have to navigate difficult things sometimes. And so Rebecca kind of breaks down how to navigate

and how to know your worth and your value and how to represent that and advocate for yourself and be assertive. And that's a part of taking care of yourself. It's having boundaries and setting boundaries and respecting yourself. So without further ado, now that I'm doing the thing I said I wasn't going to do, let's get into it. Okay, so welcome, Rebecca. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. So I read a little bit of a bio, but why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself? Well, you want at the front of the back, front of the business card or the back of the business card.

Both. The front of the card is that I am a divorce lawyer, but also an entrepreneur, media personality. I've written a bestselling book. I have a top podcast. So I've done a lot of things. I speak a lot on negotiations. I've spoken around the country on it. But the back of the business card is that I didn't start out that way.

I got married at 19 the first time. I had three kids by the time I was 22. I got divorced in my late 20s, married, went back to law school, met my husband. And we have a 16-year-old daughter together now. But it's been a hard journey for me. So I understand what it means to try to stand up for yourself and try to make your way in the world.

I feel like I am a survivor and I like to help others, not only survive but thrive and create their lives. I think it's so important for people to know that, you know, you've had your own struggles, too. And it's so interesting because when you meet you're in person, you have a powerful presence. And obviously you're very accomplished. And so it's always interesting to hear kind of like the backstory and how you got to where you are. Yeah. So today we're going to be talking about having it your way.

So getting what you want in life and in business. and this is something that you are an expert on. It's something, I think it's an important part of wellness. You know, I think a lot of it, and I guess I'll find out, lies in knowing your self-worth and your value and being assertive and advocating for yourself and having self-respect. So much of my life, I had trouble doing this. And as a result, I felt, you know, taken advantage of and resentful and kind of trapped. And I didn't, you know, especially in my alcoholism and drug addiction, I didn't have any self-worth.

So others didn't value me either or respect me. Since getting sober, I feel like I was kind of given a second chance. So I kind of like, Carpe Diem, learned how to be more assertive. and know my value and all of that. But I'm so, you know, it's a form of self-care. But I'm always looking to get better. And when I kind of did a teaser about this podcast, the listeners were so interested in this topic, too. I think it really resonates with people.

So why don't we kind of start at the foundation, I guess, and talk about value. Yeah. So I say that that is the number one rule of negotiating, that you and you alone define your value. And it took me a long time to do that. And I'll just tell a little story about that. I told you a little bit of my backstory. So by the time I went to go and interview for my very first job as an attorney, even though I was like 30, I felt like I was like 12. You know, I had never really negotiated anything.

I hadn't really been out in the world very much. And so I had met this woman at a banquet who was also half Chinese like I am. And she was like the best divorce lawyer in the state of Florida. And we really hit it off because we had so much in common. And she said, I'd like to hire you, but you need to come and meet my partner. So I go to meet her partner and I'm thinking, well, this is just sort of perfunctory and, you know, and I had been fairly sheltered up until that point. So I walk in to interview with this guy and first of all, they take me into this conference room that I had only seen on television conference rooms like this. Like the boardroom was, you know, like a football field.

and, you know, red leather, high-back chairs all around it. And of course, you know, they made me sit in there. The air conditioning was like 60 degrees. I'm sitting there. The guy comes in and he's like this steely older man with a southern accent. He had gone to the Citadel. He had fought in Vietnam. He was super tough.

And kind of had that southern accent, sort of like Kevin Spacey does. and House of Cards. And I was pretty intimidated, to be honest with you. And, you know, he just started drilling me with questions. Of course, he was a very, very seasoned litigator, which I now am too, but I wasn't at that point. And he just started drilling me with questions, which included, so you're just moving over here to follow your boyfriend and, you know, things like that.

Wow. Yeah. I know. I know. And I didn't even know how to respond to things like that because I just thought, well, I just really want this job. So needless to say, I did not negotiate it at all. And then a couple years later, I got pregnant with my daughter who, when I went to tell him that I was pregnant, he didn't even take a breath between congratulations. and I hope you're not looking to work part-time because I'm not interested in a part-time attorney.

So I didn't even ask to work part-time. So by the time she was like two, I was like having meltdowns that I wasn't spending enough time with her or whatever. So I went and found another job where I could work part-time. So I go in to tell him that I'm quitting and, well, I should back up. Before that, I was talking to another attorney friend of mine, a girlfriend. and she was like, oh, you are way more valuable to them than they are to you at this point. And I totally didn't believe her, did not believe her. So I go in, I give my notice.

Imagine my surprise when he like jumps up from the back of his desk and says, what? You can't quit. And what do you want? What do you want? Just tell me what you want. Tell me what your terms are. I'll meet them. I'll meet them.

I'll, you know, I'm not. In fact, no, I'm not. taking your resignation. We'll talk about this tomorrow. And I remember walking out of his office going, wow, she was right. I am more valuable than I realized. And so it was a really good lesson for me to understand my value and assert it and define it for myself. So I'm curious, you said that you didn't negotiate at all in that first meeting, knowing what you know now, if you were in that situation, what would you have done differently? Oh, that's a very good question.

You know, no one has ever asked me that before. I'm not sure that I even really had leverage at that point. I mean, now knowing what I know about negotiating, maybe I did. Maybe I did because I had really good grades. And, you know, so maybe the play would have been to get a couple of different offers and try to negotiate as much of a starting salary as I possibly could. understanding what the market was for new attorneys, you know, things like that. But all that, I never knew to do.

You know, Cheryl Sandberg in the book Lean In, when she was offered the Facebook C-O-O position, she talks about how she got the offer and a man friend of hers who didn't even know what the offer was said to her, why would you take less than any man? And whenever I do this presentation, I always asked, I always asked the group of people that I'm presenting to, how did he know it was less than any man if he didn't know the offer? Because I want to see if people get it. And the answer, of course is that he just knew that she wasn't negotiating it and every man would have negotiated. So she ends up going on a Friday and giving a counteroffer. And then she spent like the entire weekend basically like vomiting because she was so afraid

she'd just totally thrown the COO of Facebook job out the window. I feel like that would be a lot of people's reactions though. There are a few layers to it, it seems like, first of all, as women, if we are assertive and advocating for ourselves or, you know, just strong, we are seen as pushy or bitchy. And then there's like the fear element, right? I think that's, at least in my experience, that was my main issue. Like, I couldn't stand up for myself or negotiate or believe that. that I had, you know, value or higher value than what other people were seeing in me because I was afraid of, like, rejection, I guess.

Yeah, that's what most people say. But here's the paradox when it comes to negotiating or anything in life. And that is that the more that you, in other words, people will think what you tell them to think. And I tell people that all the time, the more that you don't feel your value, the more that you're afraid to stand up or whatever, then that's what you're going to be seen in return. You know, there's people who have mirror neurons. And so the paradoxes is that the stronger you are, the less you care about the outcome or what

people think or have invested in worrying about rejection or whatever. the more respect you're going to get. Right. So how does one value themselves or what does it look like to value yourself? Yeah. I mean, it's a struggle a lot of times because, you know, that goes back to monitoring yourself talk. I have a friend, Joanna Kleinman, who talks about dethroning your inner critic. And that's what you have to do. You have to dethrone that inner critic. You know, years ago on Seinfeld, Kramer said to George, what is the little man inside you say?

And George said, oh, my little man is an idiot. And, you know, sometimes you're a little man or little woman inside is, you know, maybe not good for you. Maybe you have to, you know, monitor that and go, you know, this is not healthy. you know, if somebody actually said the things to you that maybe your inner mind is saying to you, you wouldn't even hang around with them anymore, but yet you carry it all inside you. I'm a huge proponent of the work of Joe Dispenza. He is a neuroscientist who actually teaches people how to destroy old neuronal patterns and create new ones,

which is something that has to be done. So, you know, defining your value is not something that, I mean, you can say, okay, I'm going to start saying today that I have value. But the truth of the matter is it's so much more gut level than that. It's so much more deep than that, you know, to actually start feeling it and believing it is something that you have to do the work. There's no easy way around it, unfortunately. Yeah.

And, you know, as for the neuronal pathways, the neurons that fire together, wire together. So if you're constantly telling yourself, if you're letting that inner voice be, you know, take charge and you're constantly telling yourself that you're inadequate or, you know, whatever it is, that's what you're going to believe. It's like you have to create new pathways like you were saying. and it takes time, it like has to become a habit. So, and the thing about neuronal pathways is that they're forged as, you know, children when things happen to us. And then whenever there's a stimulus presented that's similar, then those neurons just learn to fire together because the neuronal system wants to be efficient.

So they're like, oh, okay, there's that. that means we do this. So it's not going to be something that can be recreated overnight. It takes, it takes, it took years for them to be formed and it will take years for them to be. But that doesn't mean, oh, give up. It means you start because the beginning of really getting rid of that old stuff and creating a new self is, recognizing, oh, that's not healthy. Oh, that I see that's what's happening. I know that's negative self-talk, you know, and really one of the things that really worked for me was, you know,

looking at what evidence in reality do I have that that's true? Do I, is what evidence in reality do I have that, you know, this doesn't work for me or whatever it was that. was my insecurities at the time. To be honest with you, I've worked so hard over the last 15 years to recreate those patterns that I couldn't even tell you what my issues were. It made for. I love that, you know, looking at evidence and reality because I feel like we make up stories, right, about ourselves. And especially when it's around fear, pretty much not. None of it is rooted in reality. Oh, totally.

It's like I call ourselves meaning-making machines. We are meaning-making machines. You know, I mean, somebody looks at us funny at the gym or whatever and we're like, oh, I knew she didn't like me or whatever it was, you know? And it's like, hey, maybe they're just having a bad date. Maybe it has nothing to do with you. Right. But your old neuronal patterns go send you off on a path that's not even true.

Yeah. And then conversely, like when you start to do things that you're afraid of or stand up for yourself and learn your value and you collect evidence that you can do those things and then you have that evidence to support you when you are facing something new, you know, a new situation. I've found, you know, that's helped me a lot with fear, whether it's professionally or personally. I've collected evidence by walking through scary things and kind of taking contrary action to what the fear would tell me to do. And then, you know, that probably makes new pathways. And I think, oh, yeah, I've done this and I can do this because every time that I've done it, it's been okay. Yeah. And then you go, oh, look at that. I was able to accomplish that. I mean, I remember the scariest thing I ever did, I think, was start my own. law firm years ago because I remember thinking I had taken over a very small practice of a friend of mine who was moving out of town and she gave me a handful of clients.

And I remember saying to my best friend, what if I finish her clients and never get another one of my own? And my friend said, that is not going to be your problem. Your problem is going to be too many. And boy, was she right. But, you know, for me to overcome that feeling. fear of, oh my God, what if I totally fail and fall on my face? It was a huge way for me to go, hmm, I actually do have value. I can do this. Yeah, you proved it to yourself.

Exactly. And but, you know, shutting off those, those voices. And, you know, the thing about people, And I want to make a point about people, too, is that there will always be naysayers. There's always going to be people who don't want to see you succeed or somehow threatened if you are up to cool stuff or whatever, as if it has anything to do with them. And the higher up you get, and I'm sure, you know, maybe you're experiencing some of this with all of your success. the higher up you get, the more there's people there to say things. And I would just say, you know, Bray Brown says, ignore the cheap feedback. If you're not down on the field with me getting dirty playing the game, I don't want to hear what you have to say.

That's amazing. I love that. And yeah, it's true. I mean, on the one hand, it can be challenging. and it can affect you. But it's also kind of a sign of success, right, when you have those naysayers. The important thing is not to listen to them

and not to allow your own old neuronal patterns to go, well, I guess they're right. I guess I can't do it. Or I'm not good enough for whatever reason, you know? Okay, so another tip. that you have is to do your research. Can you talk a little more about that? Yes. So one of the things that can really help with getting rid of the fear and also helping you decide what your value is, is to do your research. And part of doing the research is not just, you know, figuring out what

salaries are or what other cars go for that type of car. I mean, you know, the things, to remember is that, you know, we are negotiating or trying to persuade people in all different areas of our lives on a regular basis. So knowing not only what will support your position, but also anticipating what the other side is going to say and having something ready to present back to them on that point. So, you know, imagining yourself as the other person and okay, now I'm that person, what am I going to be saying? What are my points going to be? And then putting yourself back in your shoes and saying, okay, here's how I can counter that point. So that's going to be really important.

One of the next steps that I talk about is figuring out what your leverage is. And part of that, that's kind of really part of the research piece. And it's figuring out what incentivizes the other side. What's really important to them in this conversation? You know, if it's a boss, is it important to them to have really good employees? Is it important to them to make a lot of money? Is it, you know, whatever it is? because that's going to be your key to getting them to do what you want.

And you want them to not only do what you want, but you want them to do it willingly. You want them to feel like, you know, they got something out of it. And that's really going to be the key because the thing about any negotiation or any persuasion or any conversation is that there's the collective. of human experience. And that is that every single human being on the planet has the same need. And that need is to be heard and to feel valued. And that's what's going on in a conversation between two people when a negotiation is taking place. The reason why somebody doesn't want to give something up is that they feel like they're giving up part of their value in some way if they do that. So the

trick in negotiating is to give the other side something that makes them feel like they are heard, they're seen, they've been valued in some way. Yeah, I do this in my marriage every day. Yeah. Could you give an example of that? Well, I have a really great example. So I have a friend who is, he's a family law attorney and his paralegal went into his office, when he went into his office, one time and asked for a raise. And he said, okay, why do you want to raise? And she said, because my boyfriend lost his job and he lives with me and now we can't afford to live.

So he was like, okay, so I'm supposed to take over for your boyfriend now. Now I'm your boyfriend. So that was not a good approach for her because the boss didn't feel like he was getting anything out of that. Had she gone to him and said, I want to raise because here are all the ways that I contribute to the firm. Here are the ways that I help your firm make money. I call the clients. I make sure their bill is paid. I stay late. Or here are the number of hours that I build. And so here's how much money, you know, the firm made from me last year or whatever. or even if it's not monetary, you know, here's the ways I make your life easier.

I come in early, I stay late, or I do these personal things for you or whatever. Or here are the things I'm willing to do to make this worth your while. Something like that. So again, it goes back to value, right? Reminding somebody of how valuable you are to them, maybe. Right. because, you know, he's going to want to get some value out of it. So both sides, when you're having a conversation with them, you're going to want to make sure

that both sides end up with value. The other thing is, depending on how high stakes the negotiation is, is you should always figure out what is your best case scenario, what is your worst case scenario, what is going to be your walkaway point, which I call your choke point sometimes or whatever. and then also come up with like your first offer, which is always going to be more than what you're willing to, you know, you have what you're willing to settle for. But then you also want to come out of the gate with something more than that. And then, you know, by taking control of the process and deciding ahead of time what it is that you're willing to part with, then the other side feels like they're getting something out of this. Mm-hmm. Timing is important in all of this, right?

Yeah. So deciding where and how the negotiations take place are really, really important. So, you know, one of my paralegals one time, and I was in the middle of a five-day custody trial, it was actually Oral Schwarzenegger's goddaughter, and it was a pretty high-stakes situation. And she was working a lot of overtime, no doubt about it. But on the third day of trial, while I'm sitting in the courtroom, I get a text from her saying, I would like to have a conversation about increasing my overtime pay. And I'm looking at this text as I'm sitting in the courtroom thinking, is she crazy? Like, I'm not having this conversation right now. And, you know, so later on when we did have the conversation, I said to her, you want to make sure that the person that you want something from

is ready to hear your request, is open to listening at that point, especially if it's really important to you, which obviously it was for her. And I think sometimes, you know, people's impatience, just all they think about is what they want, but they're not thinking about how to strategically actually get it. So that's really important. There's another whole bit of research around where. And there's conversations about whether or not it should be on your home turf or their home turf or in a neutral location. And there's, frankly, pros and cons for each.

So you kind of have to decide what's going to be best. You know, there's a lot of studies that say home field advantage is best. and you always get an advantage on the home field. But it doesn't necessarily mean that going over to their home turf is a bad thing. You know, it says confidence for one thing. Oh, we can meet in your place. No problem. I'm comfortable with that.

It maybe we'll throw them off a little bit. Or you gain information, depending on whether or not you've been to their home turf before, you might learn something about them. So, and by the way, even if you don't end up having a resolution, you always learn something about the other side when you start communicating with them. I would imagine that if you go to their home turf too, they would be maybe more at ease or relaxed and maybe more receptive to, you know, whatever the situation is. Correct, correct. So there's pros and cons for each. I mean, you know, there's certainly, another whole conversation to be had about whether or not it should just be a neutral place too. But if you go to a neutral place, just making sure that you have privacy, you're not going to be

interrupted. Okay, so that brings us to dressing the part. Yeah, I love this one because, you know, this is the one that people will not think is as important. but I will tell you that there are entire books written on the psychology of what you're wearing and how it imprints your brain and your confidence levels. So you should definitely wear clothes that make you feel confident, that make you feel powerful. There's another whole body of research around what color to wear. Red typically makes people feel, you know, red is power.

Red is emergency, red is urgency, we think of red as fire trucks or, you know, things like that. There are even videos of wrestlers where they showed them to judges and they just, they showed the exact same videos, but one was wearing a red, one was wearing a blue, and then they switched them to one wearing red and one wearing blue, but same video and the red one wearing blue, but same video, and the red one always got more points. Tiger Woods always wears a red shirt his last day. So there's a lot of power in red, but, you know, depending on the type of negotiation or the type of conversation you're having to persuade people, red also puts people at a state of unease. So typically blue, green, and purple are better colors for people to feel at ease and feel

like they can trust you more. Interesting. I need to read some of these books. I can totally attest to just the power that dressing the part or feeling good about yourself and what you're wearing can have on your psyche. And I even, even if I have an important phone call, you know, for work or something, the work that I do, I'm usually kind of working. out of my house or I'm working remotely and it's not like I have to be in a suit. But I've found that if I'm like in sweatpants and I'm talking to, you know, a bunch of people and it's an important, an important meeting, I don't feel as strong as I might if I, you know, I'm not saying I necessarily like dress to the nines, but put something on that I feel good in. And, you know, it's,

it definitely has an effect. Yeah, and it's not just women, by the way. I mean, even with men, you know, wear the power suit, comb your hair, you know, shave or trim your beard or whatever it is that you got going on there. It makes them feel more powerful too. Just make sure that if you're going to do this, you do it without objectifying yourself if you're listening. Yeah. We don't mean that because, you know, go back to rule number one about, you know, being, filling your value.

Yeah, exactly. So another point that you have that I really love is start with areas where you might agree and work backwards from there. Yeah. So, you know, just like anything, I love thinking about the laws of physics, not just for this, but also for the, you know, know your value and all of it. You know, the laws of physics are always at play in our lives. And so we might as well use them to our advantage. And the truth is that like attracts like. And so if you and the other person are realizing, hey, we are making progress.

We're agreeing on things. Look at how much progress we've made. And then you get to the last couple of issues. What normally happens with people is they go, I don't want to lose all of the great work we've done. We've agreed on so much. We're really almost there. I'll just give in on these last couple of things. You know, people want that momentum to keep going. And you also say not to use apology words. Oh, yeah. And that's like a huge one for me that I still struggle with. Well, how you present what you want to the other side is so,

important because, you know, people detect, well, you know, I have a friend, she's body language expert and she talks a lot about, her name is Janine Driver, and she talks a lot about embedded commands. And you're kind of like telling people what to think is what that is. And so, And she has this fantastic video. It's a sample of what she means. It's when Mr. Rogers, I think it was like in the late 60s, went to Congress to try to get the congress people, you know, the congressman to give him money for his show.

And they start off, but the one guy prides himself on being extremely difficult. And he says, all right, Rogers, you've got five minutes. And he basically was like treating him terribly. And, you know, Mr. Rogers was using embedded commands. Like you said that, you know, you will read it. I trust that you will. You said that you love children. I know that you do.

You know, things like that, which basically embeds commands in people. And so when you say things to people like, oh, you don't have to do this if you don't want to. But will you blah, blah, blah, whatever it is that you're asking for? Well, now the person already goes, well, I don't have to. So no, like it's not that important to them. So I'm not going to do it. And women are way, way worse, offenders at this. You know, I mean, we tend to want to be liked and we don't want to be seen as being aggressive or assertive. So, you know, we tend to say things that basically counter contradict exactly what it is that we want. Oh, I'm sorry to ask for this, but blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. So, you know, I caution people about using those kind of disqualifying words before they even get to asking for what it is that they want. Yeah. Yeah, that's, it's something that, you know, I didn't even really realize that I do it. And I noticed a lot of other people doing it too, because I think you're right. Like as women, if we are a certain way, we're seen as aggressive like we were saying before. And so I think sometimes the intention is just to be polite, but like you're kind of giving the other person permission to not do what you want or not take you seriously.

Yeah. And, and, you know, there's good reason for women to feel that way. There was a study done. I think it was at Harvard Business School. It was one of those top schools a few years ago. And it's called the Howard Heidi study. You guys can Google it if you want to look it up. But what they did was they took the MBA students and they divided them in half,

male and female students in both sides, both groups. And both groups read the exact same story. It was a story about a person. who was a venture capitalist who had come up from nothing. It was a rags to riches story. And the person became extremely powerful and successful. So then they asked questions of each side. You know, would you want this person as a boss?

Would you want this person on your team? Would you want this person as a colleague? You know, questions like that. How likable is the person? The story that each side read was exactly the same except for the name. which was Howard in one group and Heidi and the other and the pronouns. So in one, the protagonist was a man and the other. The protagonist was female.

And across the board, both men and women liked Howard better. They thought Howard was more likable and he was to be respected and they wanted him on his team and they wanted him as a boss and all of those things. The group that had Heidi, they said, well, she's probably really smart. but she's probably really bitchy and she would probably be difficult to work with. So, you know, it's not that it's not something that's real for us to consider. But if we don't start leaning in and changing it, then it's never going to get changed. So the answer is not to just sit back.

The answer is to start being a little more assertive, asking for what we want, be unapologetic about it, have the research, have the data, have your information, you present it without emotion. And that's one of my other points, is, you know, don't start crying or, you know, all that kind of thing, because that's when your credibility really goes out the window. But you'd also don't say it with anger or judgment. You just, okay, here's my case. Here are the things that I want. And be okay with that.

So, and then what can anyone say? Yeah, nothing. I mean, you're right. If nothing changes, nothing changes. So it's a good reminder that, you know, we have to, we have to start making that the norm and using all of these tips and like you're saying, doing your research and people can't poke holes in that, right? Yeah, but I mean, they can try, but remember that goes back to research again.

You know, here's what I'm anticipating they're going to say. And so here are my responses. And the last point is to get agreements in writing, you know, if you do come to an agreement, even if it's not something formal, you know, maybe it's not a formal situation where like a full contract is necessary. But even if it's just a follow-up text or follow-up email, just so that there's no misunderstanding, you know, we had a conversation today, here's what we discussed, here's what I understand our agreements to be.

and, you know, that way you clear it up right away. Just get it in writing just because you don't want any misunderstandings. Usually what happens is somebody assumed something. And, well, I thought that you meant blah, blah, blah, when you said this, or I thought this included that or whatever. And then down the road, that's when. everything starts to fall apart. So if you can put whatever it was that you agreed to in some format where you can go back and reference, well, I wrote you and this is what my understanding was.

And, you know, and if the person writes back and says, yes, that's even better. But even if they don't, you can go, but you never responded to me to say this was not what we agreed to. So it's not so unusual that I would think that we had an agreement. Right. Yeah, there's less room for ambiguity. Exactly. Exactly. So, and like I said, even if you end up just having a conversation with the other side and you don't end up coming to any agreements, you've learned a lot. You know, definitely take stock of what it was that you learned. You're definitely going to learn more about what the other person's position. is you're going to learn more about what incentivizes them, the kinds of things that they're looking for. So, you know, when you go back to have another conversation, that will be really,

really valuable information for you. Right. And another important point is to not take it personally, right, especially if it doesn't go how you're expecting it the first round. And then you have that information and you can you can use it to your advantage definitely i you know i always go back to the four agreements i love that book if anybody hasn't read that you should definitely go get a copy it's it's a very short read but one it's four agreements that you make with yourself and one of them is to never take anything personally and the reason why is because the way to people treat other people only has to do with how they feel about themselves. So, you know, it really very rarely has anything to do with you. Because even if they're annoyed with you, people who think highly of

themselves or who are good people, you know, who have done the work, they don't treat people like crap. So it's like that saying what you say about me says more about you than it says about me. Exactly. I love that. I haven't heard that before, but I like it. Yeah. So I did get a lot of questions on Instagram. I'm going to narrow it down and just pick a couple that maybe you can answer. Let's see here. How do you stay professionally confident if your boss puts you and your work down? Well, that goes back to you and you alone to find your value. So, if you know that you're doing a good job. I mean, what I would say is, you know, I used to go to this Buddhist teacher and he was so

wise. He used to say when people criticize you, take a look at that and go, are they saying something that's true? Is there room for improvement? Is there something, some sort of integrity issue that I need to clean up or whatever? And if there's not, then, you know, move on. Now, if it's your boss and they're. constantly criticizing you for something that's totally has no merit, then maybe putting yourself

in a different situation might be what you need to do. I'm definitely a proponent of not having negative people in your space. Yeah, I agree. How do you come across authoritative without coming across like a bitch? So, I've talked about that. Yeah, I mean, just having, um, presenting your case i mean the thing is if you present your position in an authoritative way that's not angry or judgmental and the other person takes it as you're being whatever then that's their problem yep do you have any tips for overcoming shyness or social anxiety in work situations? I would say that's a huge question.

So I would say going back to figuring out what the source of that social anxiety is, you know, is it a self-worth issue or something like that and doing the work around whatever is causing the anxiety? I have a lot of empathy for that, you know, but I would say, definitely figure out what the root is for that. How can someone present or discuss their work achievements without coming off as boastful? You know, I always used to say, oh, I'm so lucky because I got, you know, this happened to me or whatever.

And I was fortunate enough to have a coach one time, a business coach. who used to correct me. You know, none of this had to do with luck. And if you don't tell people what your achievements are, then nobody else is going to. So it's okay to, you know, I mean, you can say, I've worked really hard and here's what I was able to achieve and not be apologetic about it.

Yeah. Okay, this is one that I'm sure you have. experience with. This woman is in state politics, and she says, battling misogyny in a mostly old white conservative male industry. Yeah. I mean, I happen to be part of a very high-end networking group here in Los Angeles. And, you know, there's one gentleman in there who every time he goes to, he was, he was,

describing this woman who's on one of the boards of his major companies. And he said, oh, she went to Stanford and she, you know, she's accomplished all these things. And then he ended it with, and she's a pretty little thing too. And I just thought, oh, my God, you know, there's some people that just don't even realize what they're saying. So don't take it personally. Just do your best work. You know, Barbara Walters used to say whatever. people give you to do, do an amazing job with it, even if it's like the mailroom, do an amazing

job. And people will notice and you will go farther. That's absolutely true. It's funny that you quote Barbara Walters because I'm reading her book, How to Talk to Anyone about anything. Oh, good. It's from 1970. And yeah, so it's very, outdated but I just I had heard about it and I thought it might be kind of interesting especially as I you know venture into kind of unknown territory with this endeavor and um it's interesting she she's I mean there are amazing anecdotes in there and she's an icon right and you know you look at people like Barbara Walters or you know Oprah Winfrey or, I mean, there's many, many different examples of women who, they certainly dealt with their share of misogyny.

I mean, I knew a Supreme Court judge in Florida who, when she first was put on the bench, she went to go to work the very first day, and she tried to get back into the chambers and the security guards stopped her and said, only judge is back here. Honey. Oh, they called her honey. She was like, I'm the new judge. So step aside. So, you know, I understand that, you know, look at Oprah. She's, you know, African American and she was not super skinny and she wasn't like, you know, I mean, she's an attractive person, but she wasn't like a beauty queen or anything. I mean, she had every reason to fall back into, well, I can't get my way. way. And she didn't take no for an answer and she was okay with it. And now she's one of the most powerful people in the world. So you don't think that she battled misogyny? I'm sure she did. And racism and everything else. Yep. Well, I love how kind of all of the answers go back to your points that we were talking about

earlier. There's just so much, so much wisdom in that. So I'm sure this. is going to be really helpful for a lot of people. It was certainly helpful and inspiring for me. And now I feel like I need to go do some research for some upcoming conversations I have and get ready to negotiate. Yeah. And I do have a limited private negotiation coaching practice. I can't take everybody, but I do have a limited private negotiation practice if anybody's interested in that. Yeah, so tell people where they can find you. So my website is Rebecca Zung.com, R-E-B-E-C-C-A, Z as-I-Zbra, U-N-N- as-N-N-N-N-G as-E-E-E-N-G as-E-E-G as-E-E-E-G as-E-E-G as-E-E-G as and everything about me is there. You can also even sign up for coaching sessions.

there. And you have an amazing podcast. And we have an amazing podcast. I do it with Susan Guthrie, breaking free, a modern divorce podcast, which Ariel was a fantastic, so inspirational guest on before. And you can find that anywhere that there are podcasts. And this is actually going to air prior to your event. So if you want to shout that out, I'm going to post about it too. Oh, good. Thank you. Yes.

So May 19th, please do. Oh, no, I'm sorry. May 18th, my goodness. Saturday, May 18th at the Riveter in Marina del Rey. We are having an event called by divorce, which stands for Best You Ever. And we have an amazing lineup of stellar experts who are going to help any of us become the best version of ourselves. So if you would like to sign up or you want more information, you can go to buydivorce.com,

B-Y-E-Divorce.com. And we also do have a handful of complimentary tickets available for those who need that. Amazing. And I'll link that and every way that people can reach you as well on the site. And thank you so much for. coming. Thank you for having me. This was, this was really fun. And you're amazing. Thank you. Likewise. You're definitely an inspiration. I hope that you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. I feel like it's something that I'm definitely going to refer back to and just

get a refresher when I need it. She just has such great tips. And hopefully you're able to to apply some of it to situations in your own life. So as always, I so appreciate you tuning in and sticking with me. And if you get a chance, please take a minute to rate and review and share and do all the things. It helps me to keep doing what I do. All right, I'll talk to you next week.