Well with Arielle Lorre - 67: Jason Wahler - Battling Addiction In The Public Eye & Realities of Reality TV

Episode Date: July 22, 2020

In this episode I talk to Jason Wahler of reality TV fame (Laguna Beach, The Hills, Celebrity Rehab and The Hills: New Beginnings) about his very public battle with addiction, recovery and the reality of reality TV. We talk about how he ended up on Laguna Beach and how his alcoholism progressed during the show; the inner dialogue of an addict and feeling less than others; our first experiences with drinking and what it did for us; why it’s impossible to stop drinking even when it’s ruining lives; how he got sober and ended up relapsing again; why it’s different this time. We also talk about how loved ones can best support an alcoholic or addict in their lives, advice for families whose loved ones suffer and of course, some juicy reality TV deets.  www.publicgoods.com/BLONDEFILES for $15 off your first order! Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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without your rice-adviseur or Sunny Cars. The following podcast is a dear media production. Hey, welcome. Welcome to the Blonde Files podcast. I'm your host, Ariel Lorry, and I'm here to talk all things wellness. From how to achieve optimal health and well-being to the best beauty tips and everything in

between, no topic is off limits. I know there is so much information out there, so I'm here to help you navigate it all and live your best life. Thanks for listening. Let's get into it. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the show. So happy you're here. And so excited about today's episode. It's actually one of my favorites ever. Like, I think I told Jason that it's in my top three for sure. And no, I don't normally rate my guests, especially to their face. I don't rate my guests, period. But I always listen to the playback before I send audio off to my producer so I can give notes and pull quotes and do all of that good stuff. And listening to this, I was like, whoa, I'm just so grateful I get to be sober and relate to other sober people on this deep level, even if we've known.

never even met in person. It's just such a gift. So anyway, today I'm talking to Jason Waller of Laguna Beach, the TV show, iconic, and the Hills Celebrity Rehab, and the Hill's New Beginnings. So we chat about reality TV, of course, but also his journey with addiction, sobriety, relapse, sobriety again. He keeps it so real and has such a relatable story, even though his circumstances are probably different from most of ours. And he's just super open and vulnerable and authentic. And if you're struggling or you've ever struggled or you love somebody or know somebody who has struggled or is struggling, this episode is packed with so much helpful information and just real life experience and perspective. So enjoy. All right. So welcome, Jason.

Thank you so much for being here. Of course. Thank you for having me. We both have sugar hangovers today. So we're just going to put it out there. Yes, we do. Better than the alternative, though, right? Amen to that.

That's the truth. Okay. So I'm sure everybody knows you and it's familiar with you and some of your story. But for anybody who may not be familiar, can you just kind of rewind and tell us like where you're from, what your upbringing was like, and how you came to be, on reality TV. Oh, boy. Yeah. My name is Jason Waller.

I'm born in Orange County at Hogue Hospital. You know, a lot of people know me from the shows of Virginia Beach, the hills, and my career went into the lovely direction of ending up on celebrity rehab. You know, after going through a very public battle with addiction, you know, I completely changed and turned my life around, you know, which has brought me here today. and hopefully we'll get into it some more about talking about, you know, substance abuse, mental health, you know, trauma and, you know, just bringing conversation around those topics, which I believe is so important because I think so many people struggle with those. But to go to your question around, how did I enter into reality television? So it's actually really, really funny.

When Laguna first came out, Laguna Beach, season one, I was actually in boarding school at 17 years old out in Provo, Utah. I actually went to a wilderness camp and then I went to a boarding school after. And basically, I was out there. I ended up getting a bunch of calls from Tallinn and, you know, Kristen and some of the other cast that were on the show, basically saying there's MTVs come here. They're doing a show. And, you know, I didn't think much of it. Long story short is obviously the show did really well. Ended up coming back later that year for when they started to do season two.

And I was approached to do it because they liked, you know, this, the natural controversy that had going on. within my real life. And I actually didn't want to do the show. Of all things, I was convinced by my parents, they thought it would be amazing to have my senior year documented. It'd be cool to be able to look back. Little they know it was going to become the biggest train wreck ever. So I ended up obviously doing it, and the rest is history. So a couple things. I went to rehab in Provo. Oh my God, no way. My last time, I went to Cirque. So I think it's technically Orim, but that was my fifth and final stop. So what landed you in wilderness school out there? You know, when I was just kind of, I was being a typical little punk teenager, you know, not really going to school,

going to the beach, surfing, just, you know, not staying active in sports. This is right around the time. I mean, I grew up my whole life playing baseball and, you know, really wanted to pursue this. But, you know, just through growing up and just the changes that I was going through, you know, I diverted away from sports and kind of started hanging out with the wrong crowd, I guess you could say. And this struggled to a point where I was in agreeance with my parents. It wasn't like I was picked up in the middle of the night and, you know, shipped off. It was more of like, we all talked like, hey, it would be good for you to get out of, get out of Dodge, you know, let's refocus, regroup. And I agreed to it.

And honestly, you know, everybody's like, I can't believe you're going to do wilderness camp. And I was like, whatever. I ended up going. I actually really enjoyed it. I love outdoors. I love nature and stuff. I mean, I learned how to make my own backpack, little my own spoon. And, you know, it was a very therapeutic.

And it was, like, to connect with nature, it was actually a pretty amazing experience. But boarding school sucked. I didn't last long. I think it lasted, like, less than 90 days. I mean, I, you know, threatened a bunch of my codependent parents about how they need to take me back and how this is not going to work. And yada, yada. And I ended up getting my way. And that's kind of where the journey started.

We're so manipulative. We are. We're very manipulative. And we're so good at it. Like, I was the same way. I mean, I would go to treatment every few years, starting when I was like 20. And I would always convince my parents that like I just needed to get out and just get back to my life, which, you know, I had no life really. But like, I could always talk my way into it. And it was to my detriment because my disease just kept progressing worse and worse. I know. Very convincing. Yes. Were you already like experimenting with drugs and alcohol or what was it like when you, I mean, was that one of the reasons why you ended up there or when did that start? That definitely came into play. So I didn't, you know, I don't, I'm not, I don't remember my first use, like, which I think

a lot of people do. I don't know, I don't know if you do, but something I don't remember exactly like, you know, I maybe had a sip here or there. I don't remember like exactly when it was the first time I got intoxicated. But the first time I was actually introduced to alcohol. I remember like 14 or 15 years old. I was with my best friend and one of his buddies and we had his brother by us a 12-pack. And at 15, you know, I still had fear around it.

It was interesting because they ended up drinking like three or four beers and they got pretty drunk. I was the guy that was pouring the beer over my shoulder, like literally, like just like a little dork just pouring it over my shoulder, pretending like I was getting intoxicated and just watching them. So I had so much fear around it. But there had to have been, you know, it was right around 16 years old is when I started experimenting and got into the spot where I was like, well, this is kind of alleviating the social anxiety that that I experienced, you know. Like one thing that I had is, is looking back that I can identify with now, but I did not know how to process when I was a young kid, was I had on the outside, I was, you know, part of the popular group, you know, always, it was very good at sports, you know, was considered a good looking guy. But I never really thought those things about myself. You know, on the outside, that's what it was perceived. But internally, I never felt that I amounted to enough.

And there was never a traumatic incident that ever happened to me that, like, that stem from. but looking back, like, that's, that was really where a lot of the self-shaming and like the, the own hatred towards myself came from looking back. It was a very hard time to look at because back then we didn't, you know, I didn't know how to express that or let people know that when I came into into contact with alcohol, it alleviated all those feelings. Yeah. I mean, you're speaking my language. That's exactly why I started drinking and using. That's exactly what it did for me. And I was the same way. I had a really good upbringing. I was in private school. I was smart. I was athletic. I was popular. All of the things on the

outside. But on the inside, I just felt, and I always say this, like, I felt like I was just like a half a step off from everybody else. And like I just couldn't really connect with them. And I had negative feelings about myself. But I didn't really know until, and I do remember my first drink, until I had that first drink. And, you know, like they say in recovery, it was like all of a sudden I had this sense of ease and comfort, right? And it was like, oh, my God, where has this been my whole life? And it really just kind of like closed that gap that I felt from everybody else and made me like on their same level. And it was just my solution like right from the get go.

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less overwhelming and a lot more joyful. Please join me every Friday for new episodes of raising good humans. Well, it's something that it's not that I just never really talked about this, something that also happened when I was really young at 12 years old, I had OCD, like to the point where I'd wash my hands until they would bleed. And I don't know where or how that was triggered. I don't know if it was basically around like diseases. You know, I don't know if it was after like education class or what, but something triggered. I mean, I had the OCD tendencies, but it obviously got really progressive by the time I was like 12 or 13 years old too. So that whole thing, like while hiding and suppressing that, I, you know, I see.

help. I had support for my parents and stuff like that, but it was not something I wanted to talk openly about, like, that I was afraid of germs everywhere at 12 or 13 years old. So I almost feel like maybe that definitely kind of tied into some of that stuff with the self-inflicted trauma, like just talking out loud, you know, just like having that and trying to process that as a young kid. But that was definitely something, you know, that tied hand in hand with, you know, the OCD thinking on top of all those things that we just talked about and having those repetitively go through your thought process, it takes you down. Yeah, definitely. I'm just thinking back through my own experiences and I can relate a lot. I'm not going to just echo everything that you say. But that's the

beauty of one alcoholic talking to another, right? The identification. And I definitely had some similar experiences as that. And it's interesting. You know, I think it's important that we talk about these things because there is such a stigma still around alcoholism and addiction and mental health issues and trauma, but that like, it stems from these horrific circumstances in childhood. And oftentimes it does. But I think there's still a lot of people and I have a lot of people that reach out to me on Instagram who are like, I'm not an alcoholic because X, Y, and Z. You know, I grew up in a good family. I went to a good school. I have a good degree. I have a good job. So because of that, I'm not an alcoholic. So it's really interesting. No, it totally is. And I can,

totally connect with that. And I think it's also, it's again, when, you know, I think we're similar in age, correct me if I'm wrong, but going through what we went through, there was not really resources or outlets. I mean, it was so, this is, I mean, everything's evolved so much in the last, you know, 10 years, 12 years, that I think if for those people that are out there, especially with those individuals that may have kids, it's like, make sure that you seek, you know, seek help talk to them. I mean, there is resources and outlets out there that can, can help individuals. Because for me, it was like, that was the biggest thing with being. able to just kind of have an outlet to talk to them, even though I was seeing a therapist,

I was not being fully transparent or honest, even with my therapist at that time. And that's something that really, you know, that held me back. But also, again, it's kind of like we're treading new water back then. And I think that's the other thing, too, is, is so many people talk about, you know, well, I don't think I have an addiction issue or, you know, it's like something I think that people need to look at is whether it's sex, drugs, alcohol, work, working out, like, if there's anything that takes you out of your norm from hitting your ultimate goals, it's something to look at. It doesn't just have to be drugs, alcohol. I mean, everything comes down to a form of balance for me. And because people will justify, it's like, well, you know,

I only drink on the weekends or I only drink every other month. But it's like basically based on how much you drink, I mean, yes, that can add to, you know, you validating yourself as an alcoholic, but I mean, I know alcoholics that drink once a year that are alcoholics. I mean, it's what it does that they ingest into their body and the outcome that they get. Yeah, absolutely. So how did your alcoholism or addiction progress and how did being on TV affect that? I mean, Laguna Beach and the Hills, they were such massive cultural phenomenons at the time. They still are. But yes, we are the same age, I think.

So when I was watching it, it was like, I mean, it was just huge at that time. I can give you kind of a summarization of how this whole thing progressed. So, I mean, from the ages of 18 to 23, I was arrested about a dozen times. I went to 13 different treatment centers from Florida to Hawaii, every state in between, you know, and I really went through the ringer. Obviously, going through a public battle with addiction was not helpful. That obviously added a lot more shame and guilt, you know, wanting me to more, me to isolate more, you know, and that's the insanity of the disease is everything that was going on and I was drinking,

you know, on the outside I could see. God, Jason arrested again. Jason going to treatment again. You would think those would be, you know, those would be signs. say, hey, let's, you know, you need to take a look at this. And internally, it's like I knew I was struggling, but I just felt like I was so in bondage to this that I could not escape, like the only outfit that I had and the relief that I knew was from alcohol. And I knew that it was my best friend, you know, every single time I drink it, I knew it was not going to let me down. I knew

there was the, what it was going to do for myself. I knew the feeling it was going to give me. But it got to a very, very deep, dark place. I mean, my addiction not only took me from, you know, contemplating suicide but actually attempting suicide. And it was, you know, it's, and it's crazy because you look at like my past growing up, like I grew up with parents today in Orange County who are still married, which is a rarity itself, you know, 48 years of marriage, you know, grew up with a really strong foundation, really good fellowship, a family that's very close, you know, was, I mean, I really believe I was raised right. And, you know, I think, I thank God for that because I think a lot of that

stems into who I am today with my morals and my values and the upbringing of my own daughter and my marriage and my belief system and all that stuff. You know, but it's, it's crazy how, I mean, looking back, it's like, I'm just so shocked like at where my addiction took me and, you know, the disease as a whole. And it's something that, again, is, as we'll get into it more, I'm sure, but it wasn't after 23, it wasn't all done, you know, July 23, 2010 to into 2015. So let me say that again, and from July 23rd, 2010, which is my original sobriety date, into the year 2015, you know, that's when I had the most sobriety time. It was almost five years. And then my addiction kicked back in and it's spun out of control and went a whole other different

direction. But we'll save that a little bit for later. But yeah, and I think, you know, the TV shows themselves, they added field to the fire, right? I mean, at 18 years old, most of my friends were looking for fake IDs and, you know, I'm being paid to party and travel the world. You know, at first, it was like I was living the dream. And the way I explained my story is, is alcohol, like drinking and drugging, it was fun. Then it became a lifestyle. And then before you know, it became a way of survival. It's such a strange paradox, right? When the thing that's killing you and making you miserable and causing all these problems is also the only thing that you can turn to. Yeah. I mean, that's, and that's like, and people, I think that's such a, it's so,

important that we talk about this because like going on to the point of you talking about stigma and shame associated with this like it's not like i woke up and i'm like i can't wait to you know drink a bottle of vodka a day and get arrested and hurt people and like you know it's like it's it's it's i'm not justifying for that like there's you know there's we can get into the whole modality of it but it's addiction is so multifaceted and i just think it's important people understand it's like what we're going through i mean you have to be in a pretty bad place to be going through that you know and i always tell people, there's no such thing as recreational use of heroin. There's no such things as recreational use of drinking a bottle of vodka

a day. Like it's understanding and getting educated around those things because we were going to really, and I'll speak for both of us, I guess, on this. It's like we get to a spot where it's like it's a very miserable, miserable existence. You know, and that's that part of it is you can't explain it unless you've been there because a lot of people always ask, well, why can't you this stop? Why can't you this stop? It's like, dude, I've been sitting there crying.

literally bawling my eyes out saying I want to stop like God please help me like stop drinking while I'm drinking vodka like that's that's how it's almost like a survival gene that we have uh you know like it like kicks in like when we're inactive addiction like we lose the right to make our own decision like we cannot like until the process is disrupted we can't make a change and that's something that I experienced I mean when I was in the depths of it it's like dude the only way that I would stop is if you physically remove me and you know either arrested me or intervened on me. Like, that's what happens.

Yeah, and I talk about this a lot. And for me, I kind of describe it as a primal thing. Like, once it was in me, whatever it was, it became primal. And I needed it as much as I needed to breathe, more than I needed to eat, usually, more than I needed to sleep. And it's really important for people to hear because I know a lot of people that listen to this show either have a loved one or they're one degree of separation away from somebody who's struggling, if they're not struggling them.

And it's so important to hear that it's not a moral failing and it's not a choice in that moment. Like for me, at the end of my addiction, but for many years leading up to it too, I was having seizures all the time. I was like totally isolated. I would pass out, have a seizure, come to like snort dust off the ground, you know, like I was just out of my mind. Like I didn't want to be doing that. Yeah. What I think people need to understand too is like, look, I'm not a doctor. I don't I'm here this as a person to shed hope, you know, for relatability by expressing vulnerability. It creates humility and hopefully people can connect and relate and reach out. But from this perspective, I mean, as doctors and scientists, I mean, this is the reason why it's classified as a disease, just like cancer, right?

They're totally different. I'm not saying they're any even close, but I'm saying the reason why it's classified is because it's a primary, chronic, progressive, and potentially fatal disease if untreated. And that's that's that's the way we need to be treating it. Yeah. If somebody had cancer, you wouldn't put them in treatment for 30 days and then send them on their way. No. Wish them luck.

Correct. And just with the follow-ups, I mean, that's a whole thing we can get into too. It's with the help that's out there. You know, it's something that needs to be talked about is out of the, you know,

the 15,000 facilities or whatever there are. I think it's more than that. You know, I would only refer to a small percentage of them because they actually the ones that provide ethical quality care that are mission over margin incentivized and want to really help individuals, it's, it's, it's few and far between. I mean, there's not, there's not a lot of places out there that, that do that. So it's like, it's hard because it's also we're up against our own industry sometimes, you know, that there's a lot of places out there as we've seen

in the news. It's like there's just a lot of places out there that don't have people's best interested at heart and it's hard to be on the other side advocating for. And that's why, like, I appreciate individuals like yourself being able to talk about this because, you know, for me, I believe treatment does work and I believe you can really find and obtain a life of recovery, but it's much more than this going to, a lot of people think this going to treatment for 30 days, 60 days, like, oh, that's the all that's, you go there and you're going to be fixed and come out. It's like, no, you go to treatment for the first 30, 60 days, you're actively arresting the disease. You're getting stabilized. You know, you're in a place where now you can be in a place where you can

actually understand what it is that you're going through so you can acquire the tools to help build yourself onto a platform when you really reintegrate back into life because it's not hard to get sober. I believe it's hard to stay sober. And people will argue with me on that. But I think when you're in treatment and stuff, it's like it's you stay sober there. But like when you get out, it's like really how are you going to readdress your life? Because every single day I wake up now, it's not a one-time choice. I wake up and I have to make the decision today. I'm going to do what I need to do to stay sober and fight for my life because I know what happens firsthand when I don't do that. Yeah. So let's get into that. So your first time getting

sober. Did you have a moment of clarity or how did you end up getting sober? And what were the most important parts of your sobriety in the beginning? I think in the beginning, again, as I went through, again, that's, you know, July 23rd, 2010, it was right before I went into celebrity rehab. You know, this was like I was in Florida. This was treatment number 10 or 11. You know, and you'd ask, you know, why did I go to treatment before or other things? I think this over the course of the nine or 10 treatments. It's like I knew I had a problem, but I, you know, I didn't really care to get help. I was so young. I was just like, ah, it's a phase. You know, like how people can't relate. Like people don't know what I'm going through like with everything that's happened in my life. And, you know, I was like, I'll get over it. You know, that's me again, justifying for all the, the crazy behavior. And it's a disease of denial, right? And I just want to get honest with myself. But after all that had happened and really got to a point of maturing and stuff, I knew that I really had an issue. And, you know, towards the last. treatment in like 2009, you know, when I tried taking my life. Like I knew that there was, you know, this is something that's that's taking me. And but at that point, I really didn't even,

I didn't even care. Um, you know, that's where this, this whole thing took me. But I'll never forget. There was a moment where I was with my mom and dad yet again, uh, in a therapy office, uh, for the hundreds, a thousandth time. I don't know. I mean, it was so many times. But, you know, my, my dad, who I've never seen broke down before, besides when, his mom passed away. He was like the patriarch of our family, the pillar for all of us. And he just looked over at me and he just said, Jason, we don't know what to do anymore. You know, mom and I just lay in bed like two planks of wood waiting for the phone call that you're dead. And I mean, just at that moment, I don't know what it was.

But I remember it like it was yesterday. It did something resonated. And I said, I don't care enough about myself, but I do care enough about my family and I'm going to do it for them. So they became my motivation in the beginning. You know, and I also, you know, it got to a point when I, when I was there, I identified, you know, that I finally was starting to get some clarity when I was in treatment again. It was just like I'm so sick and tired of being sick and tired. You know, this is five years of this end and out and out. So it was a combination.

The initial thing that motivated me was my parents and family to really make that change and really dedicate and commit myself. And what was different compared to because, you know, the other times I went to. treatment. It was from my parents and stuff, but I just, I saw defeat in my parents. I saw they literally had aged maybe 10 years in the matter of two. And, you know, this is a family disease. It impacts. I mean, and they're, look, at the end of the day, too, is they were very, very codependent. And that's something that people need to understand is wherever there's an alcoholic or an addict, there's a codependent. And sometimes they're just as sick, if not sicker. And, you know, my parents, I think you bring a big point to this is, is they kept throwing

pillows when I really should have fallen. And, you know, the bailing me, whether it was with attorneys, whether it was with bailing me out of jail, whether it was with going to another treatment center. I mean, I love them to pieces for all that, but I think some of that too also prolonged. You know, they're actually contributing to the illness more than supporting it at times. So that being said, though, is that was that moment of clarity that really transitioned. I won't forget that. And then ended up going to treatment. And then I came back, went to Celebrity Rehab. And I really went in there to change the public's negative perception of the way they saw me.

Because I went in sober, right? A lot of other people in there. I mean, it was like being on the show was like literally watching a live TV show. I mean, I was in there with like Janet Dickinson, Jason Davis, you know, Leif Garrett. I mean, there, Jeremy London. There was, there was Rachel, you could tell. It was just quite the crew. So, and it worked to my benefit because I really connected with Dr. Drew.

I really connected with Bob Forrest, you know, and it was almost kind of like an after care so I went to treatment. It was probably not the, you know, it was a pretty toxic environment as as far as like being around all that, you know, after having, you know, 30 something days of sobriety while going, so it was basically like I stayed in residential while it really should have been in like a, you know, PhP program, which is partial hospitalization of people who don't know what PHP is. Yeah. So that was kind of the transition. I mean, I went from there and did my journey in there and then, you know, established a really solid foundation, uh, took direction. I got really close. with Drew as a mentor and and Bob and you know I really put my head down and I got I did did the work

I got a sponsor you know I ended up doing this doing the steps and really plugging away at this and I kind of removed myself from LA I moved back down to Orange County and you know I kind of kind of hibernated I really put myself first and one thing that I learned is you know you have to put your program first over anything and you know I had to remove myself from relationships for a while because that was a whole other that was another issue is just getting involved in unhealthy relationships and You know, I took about a year to really focus on myself. And, you know, I ended up working down at Northbound where I had amazing mentors, Mike Netherton, who was the president of Betty Ford for 20 years, literally the right-hand man to Betty. He spoke at her funeral and stuff.

And he was the new CEO at Northbound. So I had him and Paul Alexander, along with Drew, as these mentors. And I really found a new passion and a new hope where I actually ended up getting a real job. I lost such sense of self-worth and motivation and who I really was at such a young age that, you know, by surrendering, getting the sponsor, doing the steps, doing all that stuff, it allowed me to get a job, like a real job, have accountability, show up Monday through Friday. And that's where Mike and Paul came into play at Northbound. And the rest is kind of like it was history. Everything just, it got so good. I mean, from there I ended up, it was a client advocate where I helped people get acclimated and acquainted at the facility.

you know and when they saw me they're like what the hell you doing here and I'm like man what I'm doing dude and that that worked so well that I ended up taking over and of developing a whole client services program which was like all the activities program I came up like 120 activities within the 30 mile radius developed a whole team around that and then I ended up taking over their alumni department which you know we had I don't know it was me and this guy keenan great guy we ended up taking that over which was awesome I think we had like three or four people showing up when we took it over and we ended up growing it to like 60 or 70 people within within just a couple months. So it was pretty powerful. And then I went into the whole marketing

thing. And my whole kind of career flourished, I ended up, I'm still on the board for Los Angeles mission with Curtin and Douglas, Michael Douglas. It's an amazing organization downtown that helps the homeless. You know, and I started working with Robert Shapiro on the Brent Shapiro Foundation and started writing for the Huffington Post. And it was kind of like I did all this not to try to attract, you know, like any attention. It was just more of the things and the promises that were being fulfilled through recovery. And my life was flourishing. And honestly, it got too good. And I lost track of balance. I lost track of boundaries. And I started to burn out. And my program was not my number one priority by year four, year five. And that led me down

a very slippery slope, which led into a later relapse. Yeah, so I wanted to ask you, well, let's rewind a little bit. So when you first got sober, what were the most helpful things that you did to keep you sober? The main thing was it was honesty. I had to get honest. I mean, that was the number one thing, be completely open and honest with somebody. It doesn't matter how stupid the conversation may be is like I just had to be completely honest. I had to be in a form of willingness and in a place of willing to take direction.

Another big thing was exercise for me. A big part of my recovery until this day is exercise. And having a solid foundation, a core group of people that I can connect with, beyond just that one individual that I'm totally honest with, having a foundation, fellowship is a huge thing. And I was taught at early sobriety about service, getting out of self. I mean, my mantra is do something nice for somebody and don't get caught. Like that's a daily basis.

Like literally what can I do for others? And that's why I literally like I'm so blessed because like this whole like I mean, I used to be sponsored by alcohol companies. You know what I mean? Like for party and paid to party like the last thing in the world I thought I'd be doing is advocating for substance abuse. And it's like literally it's amazing how God works because like I can't imagine doing anything else.

You know? Like I love it's not work. Like I love what I do. Right. Okay, so you were on fire for sobriety and recovery, and you mentioned that you stopped prioritizing it, and that's kind of what led into your relapse. And, you know, people always say that the relapse happens before the drink happens. So can you kind of, can you explain what that looked like in a little more detail? Yeah. So, I mean, basically, I mean, what really happened is my routine is huge for me.

Like, for some people it works great for, some people it doesn't. For me, it routine is huge and basically I ended up getting I got so busy with stuff that I just kept taking on more and more people pleasing right that's a big thing for me is I was always wanting to people please and just to over extend myself burning the candle from both ends and things that were my priorities start getting replaced with things that were not nearly as important and so I started to go down this rabbit hole of you know putting my program at at risk and that whether that be speaking more, whether that be, you know, whether, whether that be going to more meetings, taking on more work, starting a new venture, whatever it may be.

Like, again, like work related. It was not program. Like, when I'm saying speaking, it wasn't like going to an A media. Like, I'm talking about like, I did, I did a bunch of speaking at colleges. Like I went around the country doing stuff. Like, so I just got really, really burnt out. And when I was young, something that I didn't mention, I don't think it was pertinent, but it was, you know, when I was going through the OCD stuff, you know, I was taking an SSRI to help with the OCD, and they also put me on Adderall at a young age. Never had any issue with it when I was young.

I actually didn't like it. I didn't like the way it made me feel or anything like that. And I went to a psychiatrist when I was going through all this. I'm just like, dude, I'm so overwhelmed. I'm just in burnout. And, you know, I've always had ADD tendencies and just, you know, very, very fast-paced, high energy. And he goes, you know, I know it's been a long time since you've taken

this, but have you thought about doing this? And honestly, with no intention of abusing the prescription. And yeah, now, again, as 23, at that time, I was, you know, what, I still, I was 20, I was 23, 24, 25, 26, 26, 27 years old, you know, and I went back. And, you know, again, and he knew my history too, right? Like, he knew everything that I'd gone through and what I was going through. And he prescribed me Adderall. And so I started to take Adderall, and it started to work. You know, it was working for me. Things were getting, you know, I was able to kind of reorganize, restructure, kind of, you know, put things back into order. But within about three to four months, I ended up getting prescription dyslexia, is like what I like to say. Instead of taking one

every four hours, I was taking four every one hour. And it just, it ran from there. And that became my new alcohol. That ended up taking full course of me. And it, it was a lot of you. And it was, It ended up taking me down a very deep, dark path that I almost want to say was worse than what I'd gone through with all the arrest, with everything that I had done. Because now I used to be the guy that would drink and use and get arrested, right? It was like, okay, dude, here comes an atomic bomb. It's so obvious when this guy uses. I ended up learning how to manipulate and perfect this addiction where people could not. health. Nobody knew that I was using and abusing this. I mean, I was working with some of the top

doctors, you know, some of the top clinicians, you know, and it brought me back a thing that, too, is, is down the road, as I was on this for a year and a half going in and out, in and out with this and abusing it, you know, I started to drink again. And that's when it got really scary is nobody knew that I was using and still out there. And the craziest part is, is obviously, obviously at home, obviously my wife knew what was going on, but she did not have the tools or was not equipped to deal with like a relapse because she met me sober. I met her at my one, we met right around my one year sobriety. And so she only knew me as this sober guy. And she did not know what to do in this state. And like it goes back to, you know, she, she was entrusting in me because I had all this knowledge and all this education and all this stuff around substance abuse that I'd be able to come out of it. But it just got very, very, very, very, very progressive. Yeah, I really wanted to ask you about how your wife dealt with that because a lot of people sent in questions about what they can do. And we can talk about this later on in the question and answer section. But like what is there anything anybody can do when you're in that or do you just have to get there yourself? No, I mean, 100%. So I mean, what Ashley would, again, is us being an active addiction, right? I mean, what is it, what are the signs of that as lie cheat steel, right? And that can be in many different. formats and I would do anything I could to keep my addiction going and Ashley you know the biggest

thing is to one is to get educated on on what's going on you know one thing that that she did immediately that helped down the road and we can talk about it is she ended up getting plugged into her own program you know she got plugged into Allen on and because she is she's a codependent and she struggles with that and it was setting it was I mean it was as simple as this for us is she really had to set clear boundaries and stick to them. Because what would happen is she would always set boundaries but never stick to them. And in an addict's mind or an alcoholic's mind, it was basically like, okay, well, you set these boundaries, but I just ran right over them and nothing happened.

So I obviously can keep going. Like she was basically co-signing what I was doing because, yeah, she would be angry. She'd be frustrated and hurt. But her actions did not speak louder than her words. So it kind of just gave me free rank. with that. And, you know, for her, it was seeking, not only getting plugged into a, to Alon, getting plugged into a fellowship, it was also getting a therapist and also getting family involved, you know, so we ended up, it ended up having, I basically got intervened on before I went

back to treatment. And that was, that was the biggest thing is she had to set a boundary, is what it all came down to. Because at the end of the day, we can't change, we can't change people's behavior, but we can change the way we react to it. Totally. Yeah, that's great advice. When people, when people reach out to me and ask me, I usually tell them to find support for themselves and to set boundaries because we are. We're like bulldozers and we just bulldoze over everybody around us. We do. We really do. And I mean, it's, again, it goes back to like I said, that survival mechanism. It's when we're in that stage, it's like we will do anything. and everything to keep getting, you know, it's like you said, even over food.

I mean, over water, it's like the best way I like to describe this to people that don't have addiction, imagine if you go on like the gnarliest run or the gnarliest workout where you're just literally gas and you see your mouth is so dry, you're like, you're just craving water. Imagine that feeling, but towards the drink or the drug. Like that's where mind goes. It's like that overwhelming obsession. It totally takes over your frontal cortex, all your executive operating skills. It's like drugs are nothing or alcohol or nothing.

Right. So what does your recovery look like today? Oh, man. So after a hellacious battle with Adderall, just coming back up on five months of sobriety, which is, it feels amazing. This is honestly, I feel like this is the best place I've ever been in. And just to bring clarity to the whole thing,

and so I went back to treatment about two and a half years ago, would acquire about three or four months relapse three or four months and this is again the longest time i've had in five years so people can kind of understand the context of that but today is i went back to the basics i keep my life very very very simple now you know i basically every morning i wake up i do a morning a gratitude list of three things that i'm grateful for not only what i'm grateful for but why i'm grateful for them because that's really where the meat of the substance lies because that's you actually get to see like i'm grateful for my wife but why because she's a good mom, she takes care of me. She's a loving, compassionate, you know, kind person that listens to me

when I'm struggling. It brings that much more, that more meat to the gratitude list. So I think it's important when people do gratitude list to actually do the why. I do a little meditation. It may be from two to five minutes. And then I do a little prayer right after that, after my mind's calmed down. And then, you know, when we are not in the quarantine, I was going to a meeting, basically five days a week, getting plugged in there, and then doing some form of exercise three to four days a week. But since we're in quarantine, what I'm doing now is I'm actually interacting with individuals. Like I have a core group that I am connected with. There's about six of us guys where I personally am having a hard time with the Zoom meetings. I don't get as much out of them, whereas I do when I have a

face-to-face conversation with an individual for about 15 minutes checking in, letting him know where I'm at, being totally open, honest, and vulnerable. So that's kind of what I'm doing for my meetings right now. and obviously being of service and doing a lot of different talk shows, doing a lot of different podcast. But in regards back to the routine, is after that I also make sure that, you know, I'm eating healthy. That's something that has been, besides us having our sugar cravings last night, gummy worms, diet is huge for me. I notice I feel so much better when I eat healthy and clean and I take care of myself. So I try to eat, you know, a well-rounded meal, but I always try to, you know, eat lots of vegetables, eat lots of fruit and a little bit of protein and stuff.

But that's really kind of what my program looks like almost every morning. And I don't do that. And it's funny because it's obviously I'm not 100% perfect at that. But when I don't do one of those simple things that I just listed, because that only takes me about a couple hours to do every morning, right? And it's about making that choice to be, to do the right thing to have the best, to have the best life I can, to be the best husband, to be the best, you know, to be the best dad, to be the best son, whatever you want to call it, best friend.

And I really feel out of line when I don't do one of those things. So it's amazing how it's really been ingrained to me, how it really has an effect on me when I don't do those. So it's cool to have that triggering emotion like, I didn't do the graduateist. Got to make sure I do it, whether it's a few hours later in the day, I'll make sure that I get it done. So that's really what it looks like now. And yeah. What would you say to people who say, like, I don't know if you get this, but whenever I talk about my recovery or if I'm talking to somebody one-on-one who's like sober curious or newly sober, they're like, it sounds like so much work. It sounds burdensome. It sounds like your

life is over and now it's like fully dedicated to this thing. And like I, I'm still very active in my recovery. I'm six, a little over six years right now. That's awesome. Congratulations. Thank you. And I have like new girls who I work with who are like, well, do I have to, I still have to do all of this at six years, at 10 years, at 20 years. So what would you say to that? So I mean, look, I do not miss my old lifestyle. You know, I do not miss it at all. You know, for me is, I change my thought process around it. And it's like, I get to do these things.

It's not that I have to do these. It's like I get to do this stuff because there's many times in my life where I had my freedom taken away. And these are things that not only when I do them, is it benefiting those around me, but it's really benefiting myself. And I'm getting to know myself. I tell you the number one gift. of sobriety was getting to know me. I didn't know who I was for so long. And by doing this work and being connected and being able to be present and be in the moment, there is no other greater gift than that. All the other stuff that we are distracted by, we live in such a false sense of

reality today that people are so obsessed with, you know, whether it be instant gratification, whether it be through social platforms, I mean, there's just so many things that are distractions out there that for me like this whole process is is taught me to be in the moment and there is no greater gift than being present like i mean that's that's my honest my honest depending around this and the work for it it's it's you're you're putting you're putting equity into yourself like you know versus other like what else do you what else are you going to put equity into i mean yeah your family and other things but if you're not in a great if you're not an amazing place yourself how are you going to be of a benefit to others so you know the other thing i want to add real

is a big piece of my sobriety is God. You know, for other people, it's higher powers, whatever it may be. I mean, mine is God, and I'm really connected to that. And that's one of the biggest things in my program is having that spiritual connection. I'm a guy that goes to church. You know, I implement that stuff into my life. And it's very beneficial. And, you know, I think we're open or able to talk about this on here is also, I'm going back through the steps.

I'm starting from the front of the book, about halfway, through and we're going all the way to the end. And that's something I've never, I've never read from cover to cover in the big book in the 11 years that I've been in this stuff. I've never read it from cover to cover, literally from the prefix to the end. It's amazing, you know. And again, I'm at a place where I'm taking direction. It's, I'm surrendered. The best of my decision-making kept getting me back to those crappy places. Right. That's amazing. Psychic change. Psychic change is coming. I love what you said about the present because that's the only thing that's real. Like we, the future is not, or the past is not real. The future is not real. Present is really all we have. And then you said something about freedom. And I think I really want to, I want to touch on this for anybody who might be sitting there thinking, well, I've never gone to jail. I've never had seizures. I'm physically free. But you can be, you can have physical freedom and still be a slave to something, even if it's just the glass or two of one.

that you need every day after work. I mean, it goes back to what you were saying in the beginning. Like, if it's keeping you from certain things, and if it's, like, I felt like I was imprisoned by drugs and alcohol, even though I had, you know, quote unquote freedom. No, 100%. And I'll give you something real quick as somebody told me this. It's kind of a mind trip.

And the moment, it is impossible to have a problem. Yeah. For me, it took me. I was like, wait, wait a second. But if you had a problem in the past or in the future, like you can future trip or you can go dwell on stuff, but like you actually end the moment. It doesn't matter if you're in any given moment,

you cannot, it's impossible to have an issue. Really grounded in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. There's somebody in recovery who's now passed away, but he used to always say, he would clap and say right now, right now, right now, right now. Right now.

Right now. I like that. Right now I have a roof over my head. Right now, you know, I have a glass of water in front of me. Right now I'm sitting here doing that. Everything is good. So I love that. Let's do a few questions here.

It's kind of a mixed bag. It's some recovery. It's some reality TV. So, of course, everybody wanted to know on a scale of one to ten, how scripted our reality shows. Oh, man. On a scale of one to ten. I mean, so many of them are, it's so different.

different to compile. I'll give you, I mean, I'll give you my take on the shows I'm on. I'd say like a five. Okay. Like a five, yeah. I mean, I'll tell you this, is when we first did Laguna, it was not scripted at all. And a lot of it, a lot of the stuff that happens is real scenarios, like with stuff that's happening, but they do set up, you know, scenes and stuff. But their relationships, a lot of that stuff you see is real. Interesting. Okay. Has being back on TV and in the spotlight been difficult for your sobriety?

At first, yes, it was. And again, so people are like, why would you even go back? Is because, again, the only reason I went back on the show was to really give people hope, utilizing and looking at my past from being that drunk womanized and alcoholic to a guy that's got a family and a kid. Like, I wanted people to know that you really can change and make a difference. And I feel like this is, I feel like I'm doing God's work today. And, you know, I want to let people know that their recovery is possible and that you can obtain a real amazing life. And I thought the risk was worth the reward. And, you know, again, is going into it now that we're doing season two, you know, I have a really, really strong support system. And I'm a lot more mindful of the things that are triggering to me.

You kind of touched on this, but how has your wife supported you and how did she react to the idea of the show? my wife is the most supporting loving caring kind person i mean literally i'm her number one fan uh she is the most amazing mom most amazing wife i mean she's just she's incredible uh she literally has gone through hell with me um and i don't know that i'd be here uh if it wasn't for her so forever grateful for her she was open to the show i mean her whole background she was a model she did stuff in in the whole entertainment business for years she grew up doing plays i mean she's she's very talented and the camera loves her, I believe. And I think that she's, you know, I think she's, I think she fits it really well and she's, she enjoys it. Is there any juicy Laguna Beach

details that you couldn't talk about on air? Laguna Beach, deep. That's a long time ago. I was going to say, if you remember. Yeah, that's when I started to lose my, my, my, my memory. week. Geez. No, I mean, I think there's nothing that was like super, super crazy that never came out. I mean, obviously the highlight and the more drama there was, the better it was for TV. So you kind of got the real, like it, that's, you kind of got the scoop on that. Okay.

Another TV one. What was up with the series finale for The Hills? Arguably the best ever, but what's your take? for when they did the pan out of, my guess is they're talking about the very last of the hills, not the hills in the beginning. It was, I thought it was creatively genius.

They basically made it look like Brody was leaving a, he was leaving a set. I think it was kind of more to, you know, for the audience to be left like, okay, wait a second, is this real or is this,

now has it been fully scripted like a doc, you know, a soap opera basically? I thought it was genius. Yeah, I forgot about it until now. Do you regret anything? I mean, that's a loaded question. Look, I mean, I wouldn't take anything back.

I mean, I regret a lot of the behaviors in the way I treated people and the things that I did, but ultimately a lot of me to be who I am today. And, you know, I believe with, you know, all great change proceeds through chaos, right? And I think through everything that I experienced in my life, it's a lot of me to be the person that I am today. And I wouldn't take that back because I can sit here and humbly say, I mean, I've helped a lot of people. And there's no greater reward. You know, when you do something nice for somebody and don't look for anything in return, that's the ultimate high. Yeah, it's the best.

It's like you said, do something nice and don't get caught. I love that. Yeah. So good. Well, that's a good note to end on. I am just so inspired by you and I'm so grateful that you came on. I'm definitely, there's nothing I love more than talking to another person in recovery and just, you know, we share that common bond. And I think it's so amazing how open you are and you have helped so many people. And this is going to help so many people. So I just want to thank you again for coming on. Well, I just want to, I want to thank you for what you're doing. And let's stay in touch. I'd love to talk to you about some other stuff. Absolutely. Yes. On the road.

But no, I appreciate all the work you're doing. And congratulations on your sobriety. And hopefully what I said made sense. Guys, I apologize. Don't eat a bunch of gummy worms. But this was a good. I think it worked to your benefit. You were on fire.

Well, I appreciate that. You're an amazing interviewer. And I want to be in touch with you for sure. Definitely. Thank you. All right. Have a great day. You too.

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