wellRED podcast - #182 - Do We Really Sound That Dumb? + Author David Joy!

Episode Date: August 19, 2020

This week the boys talk about how even THEY use a southern accent when describing a stupid person and why that is. Plus Critically acclaimed Author David Joy joins us from his truck in the parking lot of a firehall to talk about growing up in the south, how France has rednecks, and his new book When These Mountains Burn (available HERE ) bluechew.com promo code red 

And we thank them for sponsoring the show. Well, no, I'll just go ahead. I mean, look, I'm money dumb. Y'all know that. I've been money dumb ever, since ever, my whole life. And the modern world makes it even harder to not be money dumb, in my opinion, because used to you, you like had to write down everything you spent or you wouldn't know nothing. But now you got apps and stuff on your phone.

It's just like you can just, it makes it easier to lose count of, well, your count, the count every month, how much you're spending. A lot of people don't even know how much they spend on a per month basis. I'm not going to lie, I can be one of those people. Like, let me ask you right now, skewers out, whatnot, sorry, well-read people, people across the skewniverse, I should say. Do you even know how many subscriptions that you actively pay for every month or every year? Do you even know?

Do you know how much you spend on takeout or delivery, getting a paid chauffeur for your chicken low mane? Because that's a thing that we do in this society. Do you know how much you spend on that? It's probably more than you think. But now there's an app designed to help you manage your money better, and it's called Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app

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language learning services that I just wasn't using. So I was like, I should know Spanish. I'll learn Spanish. and I've just been paying to learn Spanish without practicing any Spanish for, you know, pertinent two years now or something like that. Also, a fun one, I'd said it before, but I got an app,

lovely little app where you could, you know, put your friend's faces onto funny reaction gifts and stuff like that. So obviously I got it so I could put Corey's face on those two, those two like twins from the Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland movies. You know, those weren't a little like the Q-ball looking twin fellas. Yeah, so that was money. What was that a reply gift for?

Just when I did something stupid. Something fat, I think, and stupid. Something both fat and stupid. But anyway, that was money well spent at first, but then I quit using it and was still paying for it and forgotten. If it wasn't for Rocket Money, I never would have even figured it out. So shout out to them. They help.

If you're money dumb like me, Rocket Money can help. So cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney. dot com slash well read today that's rocket money.com slash well r e d rocketmoney.com slash well read and we thank them for sponsoring this episode of the podcast. They're the. Howdy ho everybody. It is your boy the show. Corey Ron Forster here. No shows to promote.

But I am as always excited to tell you about our sister podcast, some spinoffs of the well red podcast, if you will. First we have the evening skews with Trey Crowder and Mark Agee. Then, of course, into the abisket with Drew Morgan and DJ, DJ Lewis. And last but not least, through the screen door with yours truly, Corey Rhinforster, and my producer and co-host Matt Coon. They're all a little bit different. Trey does the news.

Drew talks about the darker side of things, and I do some pop culture nerd shit. But they are all great podcasts and worth your listenership if you are so inclined. On this podcast today, the well-read podcast, we talked about our accents. You'd think that we'd have already beat that to death. But no, it turns out there's still a little bit more meat left on that bone, some more shit left on that butt, if you will. And also, we got to have a conversation with one of our favorite authors, Mr. David Joy. And we talked about all sorts of stuff with him, including his new book,

When These Mountains Burn, which you can pick up at bookshop.org. That is his preferred method for you to pick it up because 10% of all the proceeds. go to local bookstores. And I think they've raised something like $6 million for local bookstores. It's really cool. And during this whole bullshit that we find ourselves, then probably more important than ever. So this podcast, as always, is brought to you by Smokey Boysgrilling.com.

Go to Smokey Boysgrilling.com to get all the rubs for all you meets. Also, go to carved vodka.com. You want to drink like the show. And I know you do. Go to carve vodka.com and check out what the fuss is about. about Jacksonville's first and only craft vodka distillery. Now on with this show, skew. They're the liberal rednecks they like cornbread, but sex.

They care way too much, but don't give a fun. They're the liberal rednecks that makes some people upset, but they got three big old dicks that you can suck. One thing I was going to say, one thing I was going to say, and then we'd already moved on, you know, it ain't just northerners who have internalized that if you're going to make us character dumb, make it Southern. I just did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we do it too. Yeah, yeah, I do it all the time. And now we have talked about that.

And ever since we've made note of it as a group, now I always notice when I do it. and I do it like every single time. And every time I'm like, God damn it. But again, I've got like six different dumb characters and all of them is just a different Southern accent. I would argue, though, that sometimes when I'm going, well, I tell you, nothing thing I don't know is I'm just doing a dummy that I grew up with. Yes, right.

No, me too. That's the whole thing. I'm doing, that's what I was about to say. It's different. Right. Yeah. Okay. So we're going.

I'm doing a good shit that I know. When people talk, when people are going to, and I talk about a dumb person, they automatically put a southern accent and usually a terrible one and everybody in America does it. But as we have realized, we also do it.

But yes, I do think it is different because genuinely, when I'm doing that, I'm thinking of an actual dumbass that I know and that grew up with and that's what they sound like. But like,

if people from fucking Boston, do you mean tell me they didn't know dumb ass, Southie motherfuckers? Now, to be fair. They couldn't put that voice on instead of my voice.

My buddy John, my buddy John does that. My buddy John will get the thickest South the accent. I used to do, he was a, he's a criminal lawyer out of Miami, and he would put on the thickest Southie accent and be like, let me tell you something about all these people over here, Your Honor, that quit. Like you do the Louis C.K. bit, you know? Okay.

And every time he would do that. But he's the only one I can think of. But on the other end of that, like I swear to God, I saw it. I can't remember what it was, but it was either a movie or TV show one time. And one of the characters, like, they were in Oregon. They're in Oregon. And they're talking about all these buddies

they had that are from Oregon. And they're like, yeah, our buddy, he's a dips shit, blah, blah, blah, and the buddy shows up. And he's like,

what's up? Y'all, how's it going? Dada, and I'm like, motherfuckerucker. Like, that is not what anyone

even close to Oregon has ever sounded like, but like, not only, like, what had happened was, clearly the actor read the script. It said, you play a dip shit.

And they were like, I got this. And then they did it. And the director and the, everyone else was like, mm-hmm, He sure got it. Don't you have a story about someone telling you they wanted to study your accent

because they had to play somebody from Nebraska? Literal first day I was in New York. I had probably just got on the train and text. It was probably headed to Woodside, honestly, because you're the only person I knew. And I'm sitting there and it was, yeah, I was on the seven train. That's the only reason I was able to use the phone as an outdoor train. So I'm talking to you.

And then I look up and this dude just sitting there staring at me. And I'm like, how you doing, buddy? you know, before I realized I could just ignore him. Before all the New Yorkers told me, they're like, dude, you just fucking don't say shit.

He's crazy. He'll piss on himself. So I'm sitting there and he's like, hey, man, he's like, could you say something again? I was like, hey,

how you doing, buddy? And he's like, would you mind if we just had a conversation? Because like, I'm in a play. I'm in my mind. And in my mind,

I'm still like, man, first day in the big city. I'm meeting a Thespian. So he's like, I'm doing a play. Little did you know, You wish he was homeless.

It's way, right. Yeah, exactly. Oh, dude, so much worse. At least the homeless guy would have been interesting. So the guy, he's like, I'm playing this character and this play, and he's a governor, but he's a governor of a southern, he's from the south. And I was like, okay, so we start having a conversation. And I was just like, 10-10-10.

10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10.0, he goes, like, I said, what, what southern state is this dude from? And he's like, Oklahoma. And I was like, this ain't it. Like, you don't want to do this. Like, but the thing is that he could have, and they would have been like, yeah, That's what I'm saying. If that script said rural Oregon, that might have been enough. Y'all, y'all are, y'all are a hundred on all this except for, like, there are parts of Oklahoma that have.

Not the governor parts. Yes. But my point was like, it's still a specific, my specific accent is not the Oklahoma redneck accent. That is, that is true. And not the governor parts of Oklahoma. Now, hell no. The first of the governor comes from. Right.

Well, like, you know, Tim Blake Nelson. he's from Oklahoma. Andrew Carroll. Yeah. But we do shows in Oklahoma and we meet old boys from Oklahoma. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no.

I wasn't trying to say, no, hold on. I was not trying to say that Oklahoma does not qualify as red asses. J.R. is from fucking Oklahoma. That's not what I'm saying. Right. I'm just saying like people don't understand

that there is not one southern accent. Like there's not one northern accent. Like people in Connecticut don't sound like fucking people in Boston. So this reminds me of something I saw a movie trailer and I've talked to this I've talked about this to y'all off my

before and as I recall y'all have never been as bothered by it necessarily but it's been something that annoys me and I got reminded of it again the other day when it comes to movies I saw a trailer for a Netflix movies coming out that looks really good trailer looks fire it's called the devil

all the time and the cast the cast is absolutely fucking loaded and just from watching the just from watching the trailer, it seems like it's like, while watching the trailer, I thought this is a period piece set in the rural south.

There's a crazy-ass preacher and a, you know, a hillbilly boy and all this stuff, and there's murder and intrigue and yada, yada, yada, and it looked real good and the accent sounded pretty good, and the cast is stacked. Every goddamn one of them is foreign, like not even America.

And, and, but then I looked it up and now, I could be wrong, but I looked it up and it's actually set in Ohio. And when I saw that, I was like, hold on. Why did they all sound like that then? Right. Because I didn't know where it was set. It didn't say where it was set.

Just listening to them talk, I figured it was set in the deep south somewhere 50 years ago. But it's actually set in rural Ohio. And now I know they got fucking hillbillies in rural Ohio, but I didn't think that they had the accent, though, but maybe I'm wrong, maybe some of them do. The Cincinnati accent is a very specific hillbilly accent. Yeah.

That's the southernmost city. And even right outside of Cincinnati, I mean, for the most part, it ain't country. I was about to say, I've heard some of those people from northern Kentucky or whatever, like that little area right there. And even them, like, no, I don't, I mean, it doesn't sound rednecky to me. The devil all the time. And I think it's like coal country, Ohio. And again, I know they got hillbillies there.

I just didn't think they had the accent. What year does it take place? I don't know 100% for sure, but it's definitely in the past. I was by saying my mind, I might, well, maybe they had it then. That's true. Yeah, again, I mean, I might be wrong. Maybe it is accurate as far as the dialect goes. But either way, that, when I found that out, that annoyed me.

But I was already annoyed by the fact that, again, and I know I've heard for years, Apparently Hollywood likes to cast like the Brits or Australians to play rednecks because they're better at our accent than Americans aren't faking our accent. And non-Southern Americans. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Obviously. But that's one.

But yeah, but like there are southern actors. There's a lot of them. We know a lot of them. And they're good too. They're fucking hit. And I mean, here's superstars. But like this, I'm not, you know, like Bill Burr had to have been on his last special about a character. that was like quadriplegic and some noted actor played it and the quadriplegic community

got up sex. It's like you can't get a quadriplegic actor to do that, you know, whatever. Like I thought actors. Name one. I thought actors were actors, you know, and that type of thing. But I just feel like it's particularly egregious. Like, almost any southern accent you ever hear in media is never an actual southern person. It's always a fucking furriner. The only way I'll defend it, the only way I'll defend it a little bit. is like if it was a traditional audition process and they were looking at a lot of people and like, look, this person, even though they're foreign, they, for all other areas of the

character, they just hit harder than this southern motherfucker. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's possible that like, yes, this person has that natural accent, but this person pulls it off enough and they hit harder at everything else. But I'm only playing, I'm only taking Drew's side here, like his devil's advocate's side. according to Brett Carter, our buddy, who is from Georgia and tremendous, and he was in true detective for first season. And according to him, twice on an audition for a Southern character, the director or the casting director, excuse me, told him, whoa, whoa, whoa, you got to tone that down. You're going too hard with your Southern accent and people won't buy it.

Yeah. And he said, that's my accent. that and they said whatever for real tone it down yeah so he had to tone his own accent down so even through the true i don't know process that you were talking about core even if they were giving people a fair shake yeah i think there's uh i don't know if that's a bias or look they may be right like that casting director may be correct that an actual southern accent to a general audience will make them kind of go to uh or whatever i don't know no i mean no i mean maybe there's part of me that definitely feels like you're right in the sense of like it's like

Hollywood wants a Southerner but like we want one of the good ones you know like not like I feel like and maybe it's just because I have an air for it because I'm from the South and and it's it's just that so many of them are you know bad but I I feel like a lot of times the other actors they get to play a Southerner and put the accent on I feel like they go that oh I agree yeah I agree far with it to make it sound dumb Maybe it's just that it's off. And so it sounds like that to me, but it sounds like they go way too far. The example that I always think of,

when you think of something like that, was the movie Logan Lucky. And for the record, like the movie. I really did. And I like, shit, what's his name? Kylo Ren. Adam Driver. And I like Adam Driver.

I genuinely like Adam Driver. But in that movie, I was just like, fucking what? This ain't it. Way too much. It didn't sound like anyone. And again, man, I'm not shitting on it.

He took the role. He got hired to do it. Like, do your thing. Like, but it just, every time he was talking, I was just like, I'm, because I could buy Daniel Craig.

Like, that was fine. That motherfuckers does a couple different Southern accents that hit for me. He goes from the West Virginia, Logan Lucky to the fucking foghorn leghorn. And, what's that movie,

Knives out. I love that movie. And him and that, he's so clearly like hamming and up. Just doing Kevin. Chewing, chewing, and scenery and shit in that.

that like I'm probably on board with that type of thing. It's, you know, it's like the performances. Well, man, I said it. Yeah.

No, I know. I'm saying it's like, it's a different, even a different thing to me. He was a caricature of a human being. He was a character of a Southern detective type person. So like,

why, who gives a shit who plays that? But Adam, but Adam, but Adam Driver and Logan Lucky, it was like, to me, it was just one of those things were like,

God damn, like, what is the vetting process for something like this? Like, how did that, not have one fucking real southern person that they can, you know, like a continuity expert. Like in a movie like that, you'd think they'd have like your regional fucking good old boy that would be like, no. Steven Soderberg is from Louisiana.

Steven Soderberg is the South. And that's a Steven Soderberg. And I love him. Adam Driver sells a ticket. No, I know. Somebody with a good accent. That's what it is, is that it's Adam Driver. You know what I mean?

Yeah, who gives a shit? And again, I'm not shitting on him. It just, it wasn't it. Well, I mean, I genuinely like Adam Driver. I've seen him on some interviews and stuff, and I think he's really cool. I thought he was great in girls. I didn't see that whole series. Andy did, and I saw some of the scenes he were in, and he stole every scene he was in.

But all the only thing else I've seen him in is as Rilo Ken or whatever the hell his name is. And in Logan, Lucky. And I hated him in both of. Oh, man, see, I'm the, I'm a fucking Kyle O'Renapologist. Like, I think he's great in that because, like, everybody's whole beef with him. He's like, oh, he just plays this fucking, like, whiny. I'm like, yeah, man, that's what he's supposed to do. He's, like, Kyle Ren's a fucking millennial Sith.

Like, he's upset because he's never going to be his fucking pap off. He's supposed to be real powerful. He is powerful. And he gets mad and he throws temper tantrums and, like, cuts fucking aliens heads off and throws his shit against the wall. Like, he's a fucking, he's a, you know, he's a mid-20s, angsty, emo, fucking Sith. It hits for me. No, Kylo Ren hits for him.

He's one of the fact things about those movies that does consistently hit for me. I'm driving. I already hit those movies. He hits, though. Oh, he in arguably hits. What was the other big thing he was in? Pretty Raven that you only liked him in girls. But, yeah, he was.

Yeah, no, he's been in a bunch of shit. I was just sitting here trying to pull up. Yeah, the thing that launched him. I'm just saying, it was just, it's a joke about how you're a girl. I know. you're over here, but you're defending the whiny T.G. I know. I know. In a comic book movie for kids.

But yeah, you're right. That movie was not for kids. These are way more adult-oriented. Marriage story. Yeah. That was it. I've only seen scenes of it. Okay.

And then what about Black Klansman, though? I heard he was great now. I haven't seen it. I didn't see that one actually. It's a really good movie. But, okay, marriage story. Drew, I thought we talked about this. I never watched the movie, but that, that one.

scene that got passed around a lot. I feel like it was both in equal measure. I feel like a whole lot of people. This is the best thing we were seen. Yes, Tim and Scarlett Johansson, a whole lot of people are like, God, this is so raw and powerful and courageous, this performance between these two A-list actors, whatever, and other people, and I was firmly in this camp, watching it admittedly out of context and just that, but it was like almost comical to me. Yeah. Me and Andy, me and Andy parody. I was about saying, y'all did a sketch, right? Yeah, and that's why it was good to me because I was like it did yeah it kind of needed parody a lot of people were like their criticism with it was like hey yeah these two people were great actors but they forgot one of

the biggest rules which is uh screaming doesn't always equate to emotion like that doesn't always mean a great emotional performance just because you're screaming really to me though like when i was what when i watched that scene i was like yeah i've been this mad and you know i've had a warmer and be this mad at me that's about how that goes it was when he punched the wall like a bitch i was like dog you're like motherfucker you was in the army get that shit like get that wall of course that now i don't know anything about his character i guess he might be you know like that's how his character would have slapped a wall but he's a director right he's playing he's playing the director yeah that is how they would have done that but but like he was like

screaming so hard and i was like you a boy run tell that and then he just like me it's kind of hit the wall it didn't hit maybe he does suck fuck cut carly ren i'm kidding i'm kidding he's great I love Adam Driver on interviews personally. I don't know. I mean, I've seen him in, but he does it for me. Joe. Yeah, baby. Is them dogs going to hell this fall or what?

Man, I'm not even like right now. I'm trying so hard to just like distance myself from any emotions because I think that like it, well, you know what I'm saying? Like it's just to me, in one snap of the finger, this whole thing's over. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, so, like, there's part of me that wants to, you know, re-read up and look at all the blue chippers and check all this shit out. But then it's like, either way, it's going to be like a abridged weird type of season.

So it's hard for me to even really care. But, like, I'm trying, like, look, I'll believe it when I see it. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. I feel the same way. I do think it's funny, though, how. So, like, last week, a bunch of other college football leagues, like the Big Ten and Mac and a few others formally canceled their entire season this fall.

They went ahead and did it. And I do think it's funny how, like, the SEC is just like full bore, fuck that, we play in football. Oh, yeah. Like just, and their whole thing, too, is like, good, let the other conference is quit. It's your debate. Right. It was always just us anyways, go dogs.

Right. Exactly. That's all it was, SEC go dogs. They're not even like, none of them are really even talking about, like, look, I understand it's a difficult to. is like none of that. They're just like, no, we play it. We are playing.

Can we play? Sabin's saying they're like 12 of his teammates that have ventilators hooked up to him bleeding out of their eyes. Can he play? Nick Saban literally brought up like, why don't we just cancel school and keep football? Like the danger is at school. He's like the danger is when they go to parties and go to classes,

we keep them safe. We should cancel school and play football. Why is nobody talking about that? He literally said that. And like many of his offensive schemes, not a bad idea. No, I was about to say, dude, listen, man, if you look at the science, like, he's probably right. And if there was a deal where it's like, look, if we just canceled school and football, then there's a 80% less chance, then fucking, again, as I say, go dogs.

But I believe when I see it. There is definitely, so you're telling me that if I kept them in one spot all time and controlled every aspect of their life, when and where they ate, where they slept, when they washed, who they hung out with. I have the opportunity to do that in the name of their safety. Of course he's fucking salivating. Absolutely, man. But yeah, no, right now they're just going to play just each other,

SEC only games, no out-of-conference games. And again, what's the fucking difference, go dog. Right, yeah, exactly. And of course, they have been on some bulls. shit with who plays who when you go across east-west divisions. Georgia and Florida

have gotten the easiest fucking schedules of anybody in the east. There was no, they've admitted it. The SEC board or whatever admitted. We had no formula. We had no randomness. We didn't draw names out of a hat. We picked these games and we're not telling you how we decided.

Well, don't worry. And what they were trying to do well, they were trying to make it to where the best teams didn't have a crap game on the other side. I thought Georgia played Alabama first game of the year. I might be wrong. I might be wrong. I saw that somewhere.

Dude, it could have been the onion just trying to scare me. Who's your big rival in the West West? Auburn. Auburn. So you have to play Auburn. They didn't get rid anybody's big rival. So if you have the big rival you play. But then when they added them, I pretty sure y'all got like Missouri and A&M.

It's. Go dogs. They also, it was floated at one point, and like this ain't, this ain't going to happen, and I don't know how this would even work anyway, but it was floated at one point when all these other leagues were canceling it, because the Big 12 was very much debating it. The idea of like Texas and Oklahoma playing in the SEC this year, you know, and it's just like they were just throwing all kinds of stuff.

Yeah, we're like, we're going to play. Y'all come play with us. We'll settle this shit right now, by the way. I'm with you all. Yeah. Yeah. San Diego Chargers, bring a ball. Yeah, USC bring your ass like fucking.

Nebraska, the Big Ten officially canceled, and Nebraska was just like, well, we're still going to play. And it was like, who are you going to play? We'll figure it out. We're going to play somebody. Just 12 red and white games in a row. Oh, man. Well, the NBA's, you know, they're doing it,

and it seems to be working. And thank God sports are back. and something we were talking about on the thread that I'm not sure non-sports fans understand or maybe they do and that's why they make fun of us. But it's about the games, but it's really about the drama. Yeah.

And I'm saying all that because the drama and the NBA. That's why they're on T&T, Drew. T&T is drama. Super, exactly. It's on super high alert in the bubble right now because these guys are playing each other, talking shit about each other on Twitter, and then they just have to like go to the dining room together.

Yeah, dude, Dame is dropping mix takes from the cafeteria. Damian Lillard has dropped a disc track in the middle of the bubble. Like he took his studio with him, and he's dropping disc tracks and dimes. He's dropping 40 and 50-point games on people and then rapping about it later. I love the NBA. Yeah, I got to tell you, man,

I hope things get back to normal. And next year is like a normal season. But at the same time, I'm like, yeah, but still do it big brother style. Like still keep that. Like, this does hit. Like, you know, well, nobody will get sick, but like we should all just play in a couple spots. You know what I mean?

like Milwaukee don't need a stadium. Fuck all that shit. Like, keep it big brother style. But there's people in Milwaukee who are literally like, this is all I have. Yeah, but they- Yonis Nipidouko is the only thing I have. Yeah, that's true, but they can just watch it on CBS in prime time. Big Brother meets the NBA.

I think it's been fucking, yeah, it's been cool. But you're right, man. Like, I've honestly paid more attention. This is the first time in any sport that I've paid more attention to like the fucking Kardashian aspect of it than I have the fucking actual game. Well, it's so much better to know that, fuck, Clippers, not Pat Beverly.

The guy who left? Lou Williams. It's so much better to know that Lou Williams left and went to a strip club to eat chicken wings. Then it is, too, and I'm not shitting on kids with cancer, but every other lead-in to every other NBA game ever was like, oh, and now we're going to spend five minutes telling this story

of a kid with cancer whose favorite player is Lou Williams. No, I hear you. Like, let the kid go. go to the game. Let him meet Lou Williams. Come on. He's got six months to live. I'm trying to get drunk and watch these people dump. Yeah, man, we just got off work. I ain't trying to hear that bullshit. I'm with you.

It's so much better to be like, did you know that they're fucking the same hoe and she's here in the bubble. That's way better to leave the game with. No, I mean, I agree. That's way more entertainment. It's like becoming, like it's becoming WWE, but the points actually matter. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's

is a real sport, but there is like that drama on the side. Because again, dude, I don't even know if I heard myself say it. Dame is dropping mixtapes while living with these motherfuckers. That is so hard, dude. I don't care. I don't give a fuck, son. I'm a fucker. I'm a fucker, he hard.

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We've got a guest this week, and it hits. It does hit. Our guest this week is the author, David Joy. David Joy is a buddy of ours. We got to meet him at a show we did at a college where, his partner works and he is the author of Where the Light Tends to Go as well as the Way to the World and The Line That Helves. His new book is called When These Mountains Burned.

He sent me an advanced copy. It is incredible. I'm so pumped to have him here today. He's also got an essay called Digging in the Trash that was in a Bitter Souther, that is my introduction to him. We talked a little bit about that essay. You guys should check him out. He's head to toe legit.

He's head to dough progressive redneck. I don't know if he would agree with either of those words, but he's head to toe about what we're about and about what well red nation is about. Absolutely. He rolls. This interview rolls too. Ski-you. What's up, man?

Look at your beard. I like it. You look like you're flying a helicopter to the Dollar General. That's about right. One of them dudes who works on the island like flying in tourists, but you don't want to know his backstory. Hell no. David's the greatest damn helicopter pilot we got, but don't ask him what happened in Bolivia. I mean, he's fresh out.

He is fresh out, but. Did y'all hear me good on this? Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Sounding good. Where are you at right now?

I'm sitting outside of a firehouse. Right on. A firehouse or so? Yeah, a sub place. Oh, no, not a sub. Okay. A real honest to God firehouse. Yeah.

My head goes to sandwiches first as a general rule. Sandwich is go to your head, too. That's true. What the hell are you all dressed up for? I shot a video and I didn't want to change. I ain't done yet, so I didn't want to fully change. You like that? Corey said I looked like I went to a horse funeral.

I thought maybe you took some weird ass job out there or something. Yeah, I did. So you got to drive every time you want to do, and I assume that you have to do a lot of these, David, what would be in a critically acclaimed author and all. You have to do a lot of these little book junkets or whatever. You got to drive to goddamn town every time you want to do these. Oh, yeah.

Well, I got to do that day to take a phone call. Man, you are headed to tell the gym. You are, man. Because I complain all the time about how, like, my internet just, I live in a place where my internet just sucks. But, like, I clearly still have it. I'm sitting here in my house. It's just sometimes it'll go out. But, like, dude, if I had to get in my truck to do, to make stuff work, guess what?

Stuff wouldn't work. We wouldn't be doing shit. That's what would happen. Yeah. You would definitely go to the firehouse sub shop, though. Yeah, it's not too far. Well, welcome to the podcast, author, David Joy, friend of the show. friend of ours.

David's got a book out when these mountains burned. This comes out Wednesday. The book's officially out tomorrow. Yep. So by the time you hear this podcast, folks, David's book is already out. If you have a pre-ordered

it, we'll talk about that soon. But as you've already gathered, he lives in the sticks of North Carolina. We won't say where. And he has to drive in for phone calls, Zoom shows,

and only once have we gotten him to come to a well-read comedy show, and that is because it was literally at the place his wife works close to his hometown. We tried to get the man to go to Asheville,

and he said, and I quote, I'm not going to fucking Asheville. David, he was in the show. Oh, thank you for having me. Now, I've talked to you in the past about book events,

and obviously pandemic's on everyone's mind. I know it sucks overall and no one's accusing you of being relieved. But do you prefer doing your book events from your truck in front of the firehouse as opposed to having to go to places you don't want to go? Oh, it gets me out of a lot of stuff. So, yeah, maybe in some ways that's pretty nice. But at the same time, I think I've lost a bunch of, I had a bunch of stuff go wrong, especially in Frank.

I had a bunch of stuff lined up that was going well in France and all that fell apart because of this. And then, you know, book promotion, I mean, you really do need to be traveling and going to different bookstores. And since that's out of the question, you're really limited as far as how you can market a book. Yeah, that's true. On the coin, though, it's possible there's a lot more people that have gotten back into, I'm one of them. I was someone who used to enjoy reading a lot and then, you know, grew up and I was like, I ain't got time to read. I just lay here and watch the shows. During this quarantine, I have just been absolutely flying through him. So maybe it'll balance itself out, you know what I mean? A lot more people buying shit.

Yeah, yeah. I saw last, well, last month, they had book sales across the board were down something like 40%. Well, nevermind, I'm a fucking idiot. I'm wrong. We're all going to die. Fuck learning. Now, I'm big in France is in arguably one of the coolest sentences a person could say. So I do want to hear you say it at some point. Do you have any idea why you're big in France? Look at me, man.

If you see something like this walking through the streets today in Paris, you're going to stop and take a picture. No, I have no idea why they've historically liked. Southern literature and especially Appalachian literature. And I wouldn't say at all that I'm big over there. I mean, there are people who are legitimately big over there. But my work has tended to be, it's found an audience there a lot more than I think it has kind of, you know, across the U.S.

Yeah, well, I was about to say, dude, just the fact that you, you're big enough over there for it to warrant you making a trip is enough. mind because like we can't even go to fucking buffalo new york and we live here you know what i mean so the fact that you can go to to paris and people were like look at that fucking saskatch that's pretty cool man yeah well i've never been invited to buffalo new york either if i have my choices though i think i i wouldn't go to uh i'd choose france over buffalo new york for sure for sure well i would i would say let's not disparage buffalo but no no no i like buffalo fine but it's like yeah come on

Yeah, for the 11 of you that were at the Sunday show, I'm very sorry. Yeah, that's exactly what we said to the only 11 people who did want to hear us, David. We blamed them, the only ones who were there for us for the rest of the damn city. If I'm guessing as to one thing that I think France has born for, is they strike me as southern as hell. Really? I mean, you've got it. Especially get southern France.

I mean, you take a dish like Cassoulet. Like Casuale, the star ingredients is tarbee beans. It's very similar to like if we was eating a big ass pot of Pinto's. If you put cornbread on a plate of tarbee beans, you could serve that anywhere in the South and people'd sop it up. So they like beans, they like getting drunk and they stink. I can see what I'm saying. Also, I mean, to be going on that, their culinary palette is very butter-heavy,

so that's another thing in their favor. That's right. And meat heavy, you know. Yeah. And it's meat heavy in the good way, like ducks and rabbits and, you know, not these damn giant-ass chickens that they serve over here. But they're not all fat as fuck, right? Like, we are. Oh, hell no.

But that's the cigarettes. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's what. Because, you know, they don't fuck around when it comes to culinary traditions in France. They're like, you know, they're at the tip top and it's all of that butter and fat and meat and stuff like you were saying, but they're also stereotypically skinny little bastards. I've never, I've never been to France even a little bit, and all I know about them is the stereotypes, and I wouldn't have thought, you know, I feel like the stereotype of the French is that

they're like pretentious, uppity, you know, mimes or whatever. Like, I wouldn't have thought, I wouldn't have thought that they would have a lot in common with, you know, the South or whatever, generally speaking. But, I mean, that's cool to hear that. Like to hear the other side of the story. Yeah, well, I've experienced the exact opposite. And I mean, hell, I grew up just like that, you know, and thought the same things. The only thing I ever knew of, you know, French people was Pepe Lepeot and Berets.

You know. Right. Hell, I didn't know anything about it. Two pretty good exports, in my opinion. Yeah. My experience has been kind of the opposite of that. So you've never been. rate by a skunk is what you mean

not in France well I mean obviously stereotypes I mean we hear on a podcast talking about a lot and how people view you where else have you been elsewhere you know traveling in Europe or is it mostly just Frank? Yeah I've never traveled really

anywhere else in France as far as stereotypes the worst stereotype and I've ever indoor was here you know I mean hell it's traveling around the U.S. Right. And I mean, it was a, it was a Ritzie media escort picking me up and, she, and asking, you know, what people think about your books where you live?

And then she paused. And before I could answer, she said, or I'm sorry, can they read? Word. Yeah, they can read. You know, it's like, yeah, we can read. It's, that's so bizarre to me that, like, the person saying that to you has to also know that you fucking wrote it. Like, in her mind,

you're good enough to have written this book, but nobody else could even dare fucking read it. You know, I mean, we get versions of people in places all the time, too. They don't think of David or they don't think of us when they're having a... We're not Southern. As being the same as the people they're asking the question. Obviously, you're different or I wouldn't be here talking to you. Right.

I'm asking you about the rest of them. Right. mongaloids in the hills or whatever. Yeah, they think there was like some like liberal symbiote that got in a southern person and then we're that. Like we're fucking carnage in venom or something. Yeah. And it doesn't make any sense.

But I was actually, I wanted to get into this general thing. And I figured there would be some of that mixed into it. But like it seems to me, again, as an outsider as far as literature goes, that like, you mentioned southern literature, Appalachian literature. That's like one of the. forms where Southern isn't necessarily like a pejorative to a big group of people

meaning like there's like a long condition of like celebrated Southern literature that I don't feel like applies to obviously we all know there's a huge tradition of music too but I think a lot of people in other place don't think about it that way. You ask them to say what music they like. They're like pretty much anything but country or whatever, that type of shit. And comedy, same thing. Southern comedy just means

one thing to most people. You know what I mean? Like if you put Southern in front of an art form, usually to people in other parts of the country, that's a bad thing. Except I feel like that don't really necessarily apply with literature. Is that accurate in your experience?

Or does that happen with y'all too, with Southern writers too? Well, I think one thing that happens is that you're regionalized in a pigeonhold sort of manner. And so, you know, I thought about somebody like Ron Rash, who just had a new collection of short fiction come out.

And the New York Times called him one of our greatest living writers, which I absolutely agree with. And I think he owns the short fiction form. But if you ask him, you know, that same question, he would say that in the past, when people ask him what kind of literature he writes, and then he starts to describe it, they say, oh, you write regional literature, or oh, you write. this and it's a way of marginalizing it into

a very specific thing and one one thing that's interesting is then I don't necessarily know that takes place across the board across the board and so I think of a writer like Maurice Ruffin black writer from

New Orleans we cast a shadow you know that that novel came out you know I guess two years ago at this point I think it's one of the most important works of the past few decades. When people talk about him as a writer or they talk about that novel, they don't necessarily use Southerness to define it. They use blackness to define it, which is equally, if not more so, limited in a lot of ways.

But I think readers and just, you know, any type of art, I think they're always trying to, trying to put things into categories. And maybe that's not even a horrible thing. You know, I don't know that it's always a negative. I think as human beings, the natural tendency is to try to compartmentalize facts so that we can make sense of a whole lot of information.

The problem is when you then think that because something is Southern or because something is black or because something is, you know, whatever, that it can't speak to a universal truth, that it carries no, you know, universality. Right. Right. And I feel like a lot of times it ends up being the exact opposite

as true. I mean, the more specific something is, the more like authentic or relatable or whatever you want to put it, it comes across as to everybody. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was about to say, because sometimes it's a positive thing for me.

Like, I don't like being put in a box. I don't like being pigeonhole. But as a consumer, at least. Like, let's say hypothetically, I didn't know who this person was. And someone was like, oh, hey, have you ever, if you ever, you like to read, have you ever read Rick Bragg? And I'm like, no, I don't know who that is.

And they were like, oh, he's really good Southern literature. I'd immediately go, fuck yeah, Southern literature. That's my shit. I'll listen, you know, put that on the front of the box because then I will definitely pick that up. So I guess it does go both ways a little bit. But yeah, fuck me and pigeonhole. That don't help.

Yeah. I was a little intrigued and not surprised by your answer because it's pretty typical to our experience and stuff. But I can remember, and this sort of gets to what Trace question was getting at, I can certainly remember feeling like Southern literature was, I guess, allowed to be at the forefront of discussions about literature, whereas Southern plays, other than maybe Tennessee Williams, whereas Southern comedy was always relegated to, you know, second class or whatever, is that because of the great writers that we've had?

or is it because what else could it be i don't know well yeah i think that's you know i think that's probably that has to be it especially if you're talking about an american literature tradition uh you know we've always had uh incredibly strong writers in the south and i and i had a i had a teacher one time she's really probably the greatest influence on me her name was didre elliott but she was a non-fiction writer and she was from kansas uh and And then it spent most of her life out west kind of in the desert. But when she and I got to talking about writing and storytelling, and she thought that,

she thought that every person who was born in the South was automatically, uh, born with a great advantage when it came to writing, when it came to storytelling, because we grew up surrounded by that tradition. Uh, and I think, and I think in a lot of ways she's right.

You know, if I go back and I think about, you know, a good preacher, for instance, a good preacher is a storyteller. If he's just, you know, slamming the book, reading the Bible, he's going to bore you to death. But when he can relate it with a story, you're entertained. And I can think of some of the earliest times that I was just enthralled by story. It was things like that. Or it was walking outside of church as a little kid and all the old people would be together and they'd be, you know, shooting the shit, telling each other's story. or it was sitting in the living room at my grandmother's house and listening to them swap stories.

I think as Southerners, we tend to grow up surrounded by narrative and by storytelling. And so I think in some ways it probably puts us at a greater advantage than maybe some other places. Yeah, I think there's a lot of it, especially, and we also have a history of not getting in a hurry over things, which I think is why we're, you know, like you were talking about being on the porch, I first started doing stand-up, I would have a lot of people tell me that, man, your style's kind of different. I don't feel like you're doing jokes. You sound like just my buddy talking to me on the porch.

I was like, well, that clearly must come from, that's just how I learned to talk, was hearing my dad, staying on the porch, hear my uncle, staying on the porch and tell these stories. And we ain't got no fucking else where to go. So, hell, do the 15-minute version, man, let's let it rip. Yeah, yeah. And I think if you, in Southern culture as a child, you are to be seen at the And what I mean by that is that as a child, the adults expect you to be in the room, but they expect you to be on your P's and Q's and sit there and listen.

And when you're raised with that type of important place on listening, I think you all pick up a whole idea for narrative. That culture also is true at church, obviously, which we've already brought up. And, you know, I've been accused accurately and fairly of just stealing my dad's rhythm as a preacher. And as you said, those narratives are, I mean, they're older than the Bible. Most of the narratives in the Bible came from even before the Bible. And when they spin them or make a new narrative with them, as you said, so it can relate to people, that's amazing. And you are forced to listen as an eight-year-old.

I mean, I remember going to different churches later in life, being surprised that they would like take the kids to the back, you know, so that they could have adult church and talk about things like, hell, probably shouldn't talk about that in front of kids, but we did. And, you know, they better storytell it. Yeah, well, and I think if you're talking about why Southern, I said this once in a reading, I was asked why Southern literature and Appalachian literature has such a long history of violence. And I said, I said, it's because of the church. And everybody kind of gasped. And I said, I said, look, I said, that's the most violent book that I've ever read. And it is.

Everything about that book. And when you're made with storytelling side by side with tremendous violence, it's like, well, what the hell else kind of stories you want to talk about? Right. You touched on earlier, you're talking about the question about, you know, people where you're from, can they even read? But like along that lines, how are you generally received, and I mean you, like, when the world is, you know, going about its business normally and you're on book tours and doing events and other places and whatnot, how are you personally generally received by people?

Because, I mean, you look and sound apart, you know, for sure, because you are, you are that. And how do people generally respond to that? Taking a back. And I would say it's the same for each and every one of y'all. You know, when I hear Trey's voice, I don't immediately. immediately expect him to be, you know, very well read on political issues and all of these, you know, on top of things that most Americans in all honesty aren't on top of. Right. You know, if you're not from the South and you hear that accent, it's ingrained in your mind for that to equate to stupidity. And the minute you start saying something intelligent, I think there's a moment where a person is taking a

back and then I think there's a the next moment I think they're they're incredibly intrigued and at that point you have them and and so maybe that maybe that's even an advantage because I mean you got accent like ours you can hold people in the palm of your damn hand yeah it does feel like a cheat code sometimes like once what like you said once they get over that initial hump and they start like looking at and then all the sudden they're like this is something I've never in my life seen I got to stick around for a second and then it's almost like they think think that you, at first they thought you were, you were dumber than everybody, but then once they hear you say a smart thing, they think they must actually be way smarter because for this

person to have overcome everything they've clearly. Yeah, yeah. So, like, at what point, you know, we ain't got to go too far back in the origin story or whatever, but like at what point did you know you wanted to be a writer and, you know, how long have you been going at it and when did it first like click for you and that type of thing? I mean, it sounds, it sounds stupid in some ways, but I mean, that as a very, very small child, uh, I grew up surrounded by storytellers, but I grew up surrounded by oral storytellers. And I realized really early that I'm incapable of that.

Like I couldn't do what any, what y'all three do. Uh, I couldn't stand on a stage and, and tell a story. and keep people entertained. But I realized pretty early on that I could write one. So, you know, my mama was a potter when I was a little kid, and she'd sit at one end of the couch. And at the other end of the couch, there was an end table, and up under that end table was an old electric typewriter.

And she would tell people flat out that I was typing on that typewriter and writing store before I could spell, that I would tell her what I wanted to do. saying she'd tell me the keys to press to spell it. And so there was a desire to do that and a compulsion. I think that's the bigger thing. I think it's a compulsion to create. And I think that was always there.

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Love that chicken from Popeye. Limited time to participate in U.S. restaurants prices may vary additional terms apply. You ever get tired of it? Not when it's going well. Right, right. I mean, when everything, when you're hitting on all cylinders, there's nothing that I enjoy more. I'll ask you.

No, go ahead. I was going to say that's the micro answer, and I don't think I ever get tired of it in the micro. Certainly there's days where it's not going well, and I'm like, sometimes I feel like I get tired of it in the macro, where I'm like, if I didn't have this, what kind of house would I own by now,

whatever. What I wanted to ask was in the same vein, which is like, I also, in one of those, who as early as I can remember, this is all I ever wanted to do. And when I was like five and six, I had one of my dads, it didn't work, but I had a camera set up in my room and I pretended I was Leno and all that bullshit. But do you ever, I don't know if you're like me or I know us, all three of us are kind of this way.

Maybe Trey to a lesser extent because for some reason, he's not as riddled with anxiety as me and Drew. But like, are you decent at giving yourself a fucking break? Like once you've, like, do you have a thing where it's like every day you're like, well, goddamn it, if I've got time to do this, I've, got time to write so I better fucking write or do you have one of those like right if I if I can get this much in today then I can go lay on the couch or I can go fish or are you just completely riddled at all times with creative anxiety and you want to jump off a fucking cliff uh it's

probably kind of a combination of both but I would say at this point the greater thing is that I've learned to trust in my process and I know that my process isn't right in every day right you know Ron Rash was a tremendous mentor for me. And when I was, when I was young, I watched him work. And he had, he'd had, everything was methodical. Every morning he sat down in front of the computer. He drank a big ass glass of sweet tea. He was left-handed.

So that was on the left-hand side of the keyboard. And when everything was set, how it was supposed to be, he would sit there and he would work. And he would do that every single day. And as a young writer, I felt inadequate because I didn't work that way. And then one day I ran into an interview with Raymond Carver in the parish review. And he described his process. And he said, when I'm not working, he said, it feels as if I've never written a word a day in my life. Yeah.

It was like, that's me. And then he said, when I am, he said, it's what John Aziz. very called the paddle will be just one day of telling into the next into the next that's very much me right uh so i know that if i if i force myself to sit down and try to make make it work uh that would drive me crazy i'd like my goddamn brains well yeah you're gonna get shit so what's the point like if i sit there every day and i was like trying to ride it yeah yeah it wouldn't work yeah that's kind of how i feel but it's taking me it's taking me a very very long time to be like, hey, man, if you don't have it today, it's honestly better to not

even try. Because if you try, you're just going to fucking throw it out tomorrow. Like, that ain't right. To transition a little bit into, I guess, the book and your work in general, let me say I was introduced to you by the bitter Southerner. You wrote a, not a short story, essay, that's the word I'm looking for, Drew, digging in the trash that resonated with me, maybe more than any. essay ever has.

I encourage anyone out there listening to go find that right now. It's on the Bitter Souther. If you just type in David Joy Trash, it'll come up. Well, first of all, do you have a preference? Is that two different things in your mind totally? Compare, if you don't mind, essay versus novel writing. I think the essay is a harder form for me. it just takes it takes an equal amount out of me to get it right and and they're two entirely

different beasts it's like comparing short stories to novels now I can't write a short story to save my life but but the essay I can but it's typically it's typically when I'm pissed off and so with that essay it was a guy he'd reviewed a novel of mine and he didn't like the novel and I could care less if he liked the novel there's lots of people don't like my novels

don't hurt my feelings a bit you know these all kinds of books I don't like but it's actually funny what he did because because Corey tweeted something either today or yesterday that said the same thing and he said he said you need to come down out of the haulers

This is word for word. You need to come down out of the hollers, leave the pill in trailers behind, and try writing about real people for a change. And he italicized that word people in the same way that the person that Corey tweeted about put people in quotations, as if to say that you're not even human. And if I could have got my hands around that man's throat, I will have strengthened. Yeah, that really got under my skin. And it was the dehumanization of the people that I love.

And I was in a rage. I wrote that essay in a rage. I wrote that essay in a single sitting. I just sat down and wrote it. And typically for me, if one comes about like that, it tends to work. Yeah. And we have that gentleman here on the line. we're going to get him in there.

No, but his address it. No, I'm kidding. Well, it's clear why I identified with it. It was written in a fit of pure rage. And defense of people. I think the angriest I've ever gotten on the internet was not at some, I don't know, right-wing enemy who's destroying America,

but a law school classmate of mine who essentially said that doing any kind of work, progressive type work where I'm from is a waste of everyone's time because, you know, quote unquote, those people this or those people that. Yeah. Well, we're not...

For the record, this motherfucker wasn't even talking to me. I just saw it on Twitter and it made me madder. I can't remember what the context was, but they were just like, that basically they were just like, these, these goddamn dumbass redneck hillbilly and then in quote,

people, or not even be on TV. They don't need to glorify, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I was like, none of that made me mad until you put people in quotes. Like, I don't mind us being called redneck trashy. Hell, like, you know,

DJs, most of us are like, yeah, we are. But like the whole people, like, they don't even need to put them on TV and blah,

blah, man, yeah, I wanted to come right through that goddamn computer. I'm going to have to read your essay right after this. I recommend everybody do it.

I also recommend everyone get when these mountains burn. Where can they get that, David? Anywhere books are sold. Y'all got an indie bookstore in Chickamauga? Yeah, the library. And mainly it's just a place where we keep books before they burn them. I'm big in France, and y'all got an indie bookstore in Chickamauga. Two of my favorite things that's ever had on this podcast.

Well, hell, I've got an indie book. got internet. I ain't got internet, but by God, we got indie bookstores. I bet it's awesome too, ain't it? So you prefer an indie bookstore. Is there an online avenue since the pandemic is going on? Oh, yeah, but you can get it. You can get it anywhere. If I was buying online, yeah, I'd prefer you buy it from bookshop.org. There you go. Which is a, you know, was very much a response to Amazon. 10% of all those sales filter back to indie bookstores. I think right now, and the reason I'm so adamant about that is I can't think of many places that are that are safe havens for for weird ass kids like me more than comic bookstores you know bookstores music stores

and and right now we need to be supporting those places more more so than any any time because the other side of this does not look good for small business it doesn't look good for venues where y'all performed it doesn't look good for any of that No. No, and the good news is Jeff Bezos has made $80 billion in the meantime. Hey, it trickles down, Drew. Remember how it goes? David, I read the book.

You sent it to me. I appreciate that. I wanted to tell you guys this on the podcast, get your live reaction. In the inscription, he signed it to me and Andy, and he referenced one of her jokes, not one of mine. I'm fairly fine with that. I want to, I don't know, we've never, let's be,

honest. I don't think we've ever interviewed a novelist right before or right as their novel came out. I don't know how much into the plot we should not get into. Can you give the folks a synopsis or whatever? And then I can tell them my impression or I don't know how you want to promote this. I'll tell you, it's kind of funny that I'm sitting where I am because there was a, there was a man that used to used to be a fireman here. And his son got bad off on methamphetamine. And at one point, he was so far in debt that this man went and bought his son's life back. And he told me a story about riding up the mountain with $10,000 in cash and a shotgun across his lap.

And in a lot of ways, that was the genesis for this novel, in that I have a character named Raymond Mathis, whose son's a heroin addict. And in the beginning of the novel, that's exactly what happens. And so I've got this father whose son's an addict and he's doing everything he can to save him And then on the other side, I've got an addict basically living day to day, you know, just searching out, searching out the time. And these two lives are kind of running parallel. And then that eventually intersect. So it's largely a book about the opioid epidemic in Appalachian, more specifically in Western North Carolina,

because I think it's hitting here hard right this second, whereas in other places, you know, Eastern Kentucky, West Virginia, it was maybe five years ago. It kind of was the peak. I think things are peaking out right this moment here. And so it's largely about that. It's, you know, thematically, it's largely about culture. It's about the death of a culture, juxtaposed against the revitalization of a culture, like what they're experiencing in Cherokee right now.

And so really it's kind of playing around with those things. I thought it was wonderful. You talked about the revitalization of a culture. There was a moment where not Ray, I'm bad with names. What's the other guy? Danny Rattler. Randy Rattler is having a flashback. Danny Rattler.

Danny, my bad. Danny, damn it. Danny, like the restaurant. Denny's having a flashback of a moment that he had with his sister when he was younger. And I went to Cherokee. when they were doing the things you're describing in that flashback. And I can remember being a kid and not being smart enough to know why I felt this way, but like almost kind of feeling sorry.

Like it didn't feel right watching somebody in a 15-color headdress dance while someone took their picture. So that moment was, I don't know, I guess very real for me. But even in the new culture, as the Cherokee are now making money, he didn't have a place. Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think in a lot of ways, he, he had, he was ashamed of what it was when he was a child. And then at the moment when he can finally, when he can feel that sense of pride, he's incapable of it because he's too far down the, down the rabbit hole. And I think, you know, that's the reality of Cherokee. You know, if you've, if you've lived here, if you've been here, you have, you have pre-casino Cherokee, post-casino Cherokee.

Pre-casino Cherokee was rubber Tomahawks, fake airheads, tepees and headdresses. And there's a part of me who like you looked at that and felt sorry for somebody. At the same time, I don't think that those people were exploiting themselves. I think them people were surviving the only damn way they knew how. Sure. What I will say is that post-casino, that place has looked like what good socialized programs could look like in this country, which is to say that they've invested in schools. Every kid who's born there can go to college free.

It's paid for. They've got better schools than we've got in Jackson County. You know, they've got mental health services. They've got addiction services. They've got top of the line drug treatment facilities there right now. And that's not to say that they're being fully utilized, but that is saying that they're putting the dollars into their communities and into the infrastructure to provide those services for their people. If you go back 25 years, you had a language on the brink of extinction. And now you've got children being raised as native speakers.

I'm proud of that place. I'm proud of what Cherokee's doing. And that's not saying that everything's perfect there because it most certainly is not. That place is absolutely riddled with addiction just like Jackson County is. But the difference seems to me that they are putting that money into the community, whereas that's not the reality of any place else. You know, Jackson County certainly isn't. Haywood County certainly none of these places are.

If you go to where y'all grew up, if you go to, you know, rural Tennessee, they ain't nobody dumping money in the Stinking Creek, you know. No. No, man. No or not. Well, but David, thank you. I mean, we don't want to, you know, take up too much of your time. I would recommend anybody read David's stuff.

I thought it was wonderful. The characters were unbelievable. I don't want to give too much away. But when he's riding up the mountain, the person he meets with the bandana, Walt, right? I don't know what you're talking. Oh, boy.

So long as I read that. My man got to say it's Danny, God damn it. Furious about Denny, but he can't remember the goddamn antagonist name. You're talking about Wadi Freeman? Yeah. Yeah, Wadi. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. You liked when he said, he said, I ain't calling you that. Yeah, I laughed out loud. The dumbest, fucking name I ever heard of. That's what he told him. Looking at the baddest man on Cherokee right in his face, he going, I'm not calling you that. It's the dumbest fucking name I ever heard of.

And David, it was bookshops.com, you said? Bookshop.org. Bookshop. Dot org. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, that's where you should go find all of David's stuff and anything if you're going to, because, as you said, 10% back to independent bookstores, which is fucking amazing. Yep.

Hell yeah. Well, dude. Oh, he's a good follow on Twitter, too. Yeah. Yeah, probably on all those shit. As Drew said, had to tell a jet. The way of the truth is in the life, man. We appreciate everything you do and for coming on here.

Likewise. Likewise. I appreciate hell out of everything you're doing. Buddy, you take it easy. Thanks for being here and be safe, driving back up the goddamn hill to get to your house. I'll do it. All right. David, Joe, everybody.

All right, do we need to do anything for the end, the skew or whatever? Eh. I'll fix it in post. Make that to end. Thank you all for listening to the well-read show. We'd love to stick around longer, but we got to go. Tune in next week if you've got nothing to do. Thank you, God bless you, good night and skew.