wellRED podcast - #42 - We Got a Gig, Baby! w/ Hayes Carll!!!

Episode Date: November 22, 2017

Sup wellREDDERS? This is a VERY special episode of the podcast on account of we are joined by one of our absolute favorite singer/songwriters on the planet! He has been on every wellRED road playlist we have ever made.. every pre-show playlist we've ever made... hell anytime we are drinking and need to laugh, cry, or feel a bit of both - we turn on the incomprable Hayes Carll!Join us as we chat in our hotel room in Denver! For Tickets to see HayesFor Tickets to see us Download, subscribe, tell your friends, and leave us a review!Love y'all like chicken!

And we thank them for sponsoring the show. Well, no, I'll just go ahead. I mean, look, I'm money dumb. Y'all know that. I've been money dumb ever, since ever, my whole life. And the modern world makes it even harder to not be money dumb, in my opinion, because you used to, you, like, had to write down everything you spent or you wouldn't know nothing. But now you got apps and stuff on your phone.

It's just like, you can just, it makes it easier to lose count of, well, your count, the count every month, how much you're spending. A lot of people don't even know how much they spend on a per month basis. I'm not going to lie. I can be one of those people. Like, let me ask you right now. Skewers out, whatnot, sorry, well-read people. People across the ske universe, I should say. Do you even know how many subscriptions that you actively pay for every month or every year?

Do you even know? Do you know how much you spend on takeout or delivery? Getting a paid chauffeur for your chicken low main? Because that's a thing that we do in this society. Do you know how much you spend on that? It's probably more than you think. But now there's an app designed to help you manage your money better. and it's called Rocket Money.

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I used Rocket Money and realized that I had apparently been paying for two different language learning services that I just wasn't using. So I was probably like, I should know Spanish. I'll learn Spanish. and I've just been paying to learn Spanish without practicing any Spanish for, you know, pertinent two years now or something like that. Also, a fun one, I'd said it before,

but I got an app, lovely little app where you could, you know, put your friend's faces onto funny reaction gifts and stuff like that. So obviously I got it so I could put Corey's face on those two, those two like twins from the Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland movies. You know, those weren't a little like the Q-ball-looking twin fellas. Yeah, so that was money.

What was that in response to? What was that a reply gift for? Just when I did something stupid. Something fat, I think, and stupid. Something both fat and stupid. But anyway, that was money well spent at first, but then I quit using it and was still paying for it and forgotten. If it wasn't for Rocket Money, I never would have even figured it out.

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Limited time to participate in U.S. restaurants prices may vary additional terms apply. What's up, everybody? It's your boy, the show. Just had a great weekend here in Denver, Colorado. Amber, say hey from the bathroom. Hi. I don't know if you could hear her, but she's in their naked trying to get us out of here so we can go to the airport. Let's see.

This weekend we're going to be in Chattanooga, Tennessee, the 28th and 29th. Then it's on to Nashville, Orlando, Florida, Tampa, Florida, Atlanta, Georgia, and Birmingham, Alabama. That's going to round out 2017 for the well-read tour. But we will be back in 2018, hitting the road super hard, pretty much right at the beginning. Go to well-red comedy.com for tickets, W-E-L-L-R-E-D comedy.com, spelled just like the podcast. Tell your friends, subscribe, download. Go grab our book, The Liberal Redneck Manifesto, Dragon Dixie Out of the Dark, now available in paperback as well.

Great Christmas present. So, anyways, enjoy this here interview with one of our favorite singer-songwriters and just an all-around great, all-around great dude, sorry, I'm high, all-around great dude, and just a great interview. Hey, it's Carl. Of course, before that, it's me and the boys talking about random bullshit. Love y'all. and skew.

Well, well, well, wow. Hey. Hey. Here we are. We're in my hotel room in Denver, Colorado. I wish a fan would put together a montage if you're saying, here we are. I know. Well, I mean, that's just how I be starting.

Wait, isn't that a podcast about the universe? Here we are. Yeah. Oh, God, don't tell me that. Probably, yeah. You're trying to, don't smoke weed and listen to that motherfucker. No. but anyway, here we are.

I've told Corey this. Have I told you this? I want to start a podcast called Into the Abisket, where we just eat baked goods and then talk about existential crises. Yeah, you know. I mean, that's many of my, you know, afternoons. That's what I'm saying. Cash me at brunch.

Right. How about that? Yeah. All right. Listen, I will not argue with you guys on who is the brunch kings. But don't know. Y'all can fuck. me on existential crises. Oh, for sure. But we both, they have to fill that void as it were.

That's what it is. You know what I mean? Into the abiscus. Yeah, you're into the abysk and I finished that out with... Into the abysk. You just accidentally said that and that's hilarious. I did. I want pancakes now. Into the abyss quick. Into the abyss quick. I want some... Yeah, I thought you or I heard, you know, like lobster bids. I really want some... I really want some pancakes right now, but the only pancakes I like are my mama's pancakes and I never get to have my mama's pancakes because we're all in the goddamn road chasing my dr. dream and it means that I have to leave my family behind this is the show.

The only pancakes that I like, so Corey's high right now. The only pancakes I like are my Mammaudanis and she's dead, Corey, so get over your fucking cell. See, don't help. So you... Yes and peace, Mammaudan Dane. You brought up... Nothing's ever hit harder for me than you just saying Mammaudan Dane Day.

By the way, she would have loved you. Oh, I'm sorry. Didn't you say she was a grandma? You seen them cheeks, buddy? All the reasons that you think it, yes. Yes, but also, I think I've told her that. I mean, she was wild as hell. She would hit on the preacher and shit.

You, she'd probably tell you you were sexy about 15 times. She wouldn't like that you were bald, but she would love your beard. I was about saying, and I just always wear a hat. I'd never wear a hat around my mom all dandah, and she'd never know. So you referenced this. I'm so torn right now whether I want to bring this up and talk about it or not, but I think I do because, you know, it's relevant to me and us in a way. He quoted, he referenced the cash me out sigh.

How about that girl earlier? And it's the only time I've ever referenced it and it's two years too late. No, it's not two years too late. Dude, it ain't, it ain't been that long ago. It ain't. No. Okay. I think it was, I mean, I think it was earlier this fucking year.

Maybe it was like last year. I don't know. It ain't been two years. Anyway, point is that chick's like, you know, she's a rapper now, of course. and is like living in L.A. and I think, you know, still hitting in her way all from... Which I think is literal hitting. Right.

Yeah, going on TV and just, you know, being terrible. Is this circled back to Memo on D&D and Day and then? What are we talking about? I'm sorry, I'm just confused. He mentioned it in the... I'm saying, like, that's the type of shit. That. Maybe not.

I feel like that type of thing, At least somewhere in that universe is where we get lumped into a lot. Sure. Well, I mean, not we, you. Thank you. Yes. You're, yeah. Well, let me finish.

Yeah, y'all, the people in the background of her rap videos. Let's say, let me finish. That's what I was going to say. I was going to say, let me finish. I think it's better to be lumped into a fucking category. You know what I mean? We're just lumps. Yeah.

Lumps, gravy. Mammal Dane. Did it. Yeah. Nailed it. Nailed it. So, well, you know what? Mammal Dindon would molest you.

That's the thing that I was. thinking about the other day. Oh, Lord. Like, not, like, literally she would, like, grab your, that's not what I mean at all. I just mean, like, the way she would behave, A, in this day and age, if it were, like, in, you know, Chicago, it'd be like, what is happening? You can't touch people that way. See, now I feel like I'm disparaging, Mamont Dindane's name.

She's not going to Harvey Weinstein yet. That's not what I mean. I just mean she'd, like, smack your face a little bit and just be like, you're sexy. If I still have boyfriends, I'd have one of you. And that's fine. she's an adorable old lady. But if she was a man, I think that'd be a little creepy, right?

For sure. I shouldn't have molested you. Right. I'm sorry. You know what I'm saying? God damn you. God damn you. Corey's my step-pepper and this fucked-up joke or no, I don't.

I love how quickly this podcast is devolved into Corey railing your dad, grandma. Well, well, no one had said that out loud. She would not at all molest you, but I'm saying she would say that, you know, kind of thing, as she often did.

You know, she would just fucking tell people they were sexy if she wanted to. If she were a man, I mean, you know, that'd be fairly, you know, creepy. Well, we've talked about this before. By fairly, I don't mean to a degree. I mean, it is fair that is considered creepy. We've talked about this before off-bike and stuff, but like a lot of times, especially on the internet, people try to people

you know there's the whole like men's rights thing and all that type of deal and like those type of people I don't believe those people I don't think they're serious buddy they're fucking serious they're stupid but they're serious I just think they enjoy

it's fucking basement they believe they believe it it's basement dwelling neck bears that can't get laid to save their fucking lives I have met one did I tell you I never told you that story I went to this party with Annie I've been to open mics it was all no it was all these hilarious

That's inside baseball, but that's fucking funny. It was like all these hippie-dippy times. There was a theater thing. They were doing a reading for this play that they were going to put on. So you would expect a certain level of, you know, if not wholeness, at least pretend. Right? We're in New York at a fucking penthouse apartment. There's cocktails.

There's a lady passing cheese around. And we do this play reading or whatever. Andy was in it. She got paid or whatever. So that's why we were there. And then we hung around. And one of the writer's friends, he was an MRA guy. Like it became very obvious very quickly.

And he was a total fucking beta nerd who like went to a good college, who like was well read. You know what I'm saying? Like it wasn't a bro in the basement who worked out all the time. Well, he did seem like he did too many push-ups because the only muscles he had was his chest muscles. But you guys get what I'm saying. Yeah, no, that's how most of those guys are because like the shitty bros like they're shitty in their own way, obviously. But again, I think a huge part of all that comes from like those dudes like hate women because. They can't get any action ever.

It's so pathetic. And like, bros fucking can't. Say what you will about bros. They do all right. Yeah, they stay good. And I said he was in Oregon. He wasn't like a men's rights, this, that, but he would like defend those pickup artists.

Right. He was like, well, you know, I've studied that guy's techniques. And like, I was hammered. I was like, I'm sorry, buddy. I'm going to stop you right now. You studied his techniques? Like, what the fuck do you mean? You studied?

He didn't like me. But those beta types never do. That guy also studied the blood. That guy also studied the blade. I haven't. You mean like he was really into like... A lot of those guys also have studied the blade. You know, I've noticed this, and I shouldn't say this because we have discussed...

Metal is such like a cool and interesting genre, and there's all kinds of metal fans, but there's a certain type of metal fan who, like, dresses like a Viking, and you're like, dude, you wouldn't bust a grape in a throat fight. Like, warrior, you know, and you're like, nah, come on. Yeah, here. But to go back to how this all got started, we're talking about, I'm all dain and how she would go after Corey. No, listen.

She would flirt with Corey. I know. She would flirt with Corey. What I was going to say about those MRI dudes. She told Andy one time, she said, you're going to get you a boyfriend? Papal had died. She said, honey, I wouldn't have one of them if he had a golden pecker. And then she paused and was, like, she didn't say anything, but you could tell she thought,

yeah, maybe I would if you had a golden bag. That would be something to see. Ain't no River Solom, don't contain a band. So, but what I was going to say about those MRI guys is one of the things they love to harp on is the like, and I'm doing air quotes now, the double standard when it comes to women objectifying men. I almost can't even say it with a straight face, but like women objectifying men and like feeling entitled to men's bodies and to do whatever they want and say whatever they want. And I preface all this by saying, we two are all over the place. A lot of our

fans are older white ladies. They be grabbing us. Sweethearts, we love them all. They have a couple glasses of wine and they get a little handsy. They get a hansy. And they get in their men mouty? They say some wild shit. They get a little hansy. They get a little mouty. They say, you know, I mean, we're all wearing, me and Drew there with our wedding

rings on and shit. They know what time it is. And they still say this stuff. And it's like, if the role, if the gender rolls reverse, yes, it would be fucked up. But they're not reversed. Right. Like, it's just not the same thing.

Exactly. I don't know how people are going to respond to this. I don't know how shit is going to be perceived. But like, the truth is. you could beat them up well yeah that okay that's the underlying reason for what I was about to say

but what I was going to say the truth is if I want this to end I can make this shit fucking end I just it don't bother me that much right me either like I just move on

it doesn't bother me that much I don't know and that is why is because I'm not at all threatened in the situation at all like so so you know all the lady

female fans I tell you want to come to show go little hands like whatever go wild and now it sounds like you actually No, no, no, no. Trey is dressing like he wants it.

No, I'm sorry. But, yeah, but, but it just doesn't. Yes, that's why, because at no point do I feel like physically I'm in danger. Well, that is. Or whatever. Well, not in control of the situation. Right. So I'm just like, oh, you can.

You can. You can. You can. And if you need to, you will embarrass that lady who are in that scenario and it'll be over. Right. Exactly. Like, if you, if a grader, I do it all the time. If a lady grabs, yeah, grabs your butt.

And you're like, oh, yeah, your husband wasn't here or not. Like, whatever the joke is. And it does make her feel ashamed. And it doesn't always, especially with the blonde ones. But if it does make them feel ashamed, like, they'll stop. You make a man feel ashamed. Now he's angry at the woman. Sure.

And you're a fucking saw. I wasn't even da-da-da-da-da-da. So to keep going with how the double standard is such bullshit, we went as now somewhat famously, at least among our fans, to a gay nudist retreat. And I have never said this because I don't want to, wow, I sound like a total victim. I just don't want to cause trouble. We got naked at some point. We did that.

And a dude grabbed my ass. Like he put his hand full cup on my ass, and he said, does your wife know how sexy your ass is? And it, like, jarred me. It was like weird, this stranger, and he was older, which made it gross. And not, like, homophobic gross. It was like an old dude. I want an old dude touch my ass.

And, I mean, young dude, we'll see, you know, case by case basis. he did that and I grabbed his arm and I moved it off and I said she knows how sexy consent is and it shamed him and he ran away two things I bet that looked gross yeah hilarious two things one that I never would have been as like I don't even want to say prepared because I never even imagined it happening to me

because I'm a dude but for lack of a better word I never would have been as If it weren't for all the bullshit going on now, you know what I mean? It's just like I knew that was wrong. Immediately I didn't feel anything other than, you're not supposed to do this, dude. And then two, though, because I'm a man, because he was a fucking dainty old man, I was like, physically I was like, nah, cuss, this ain't happening. Right. You know what I mean?

We, even in the scenario where it was a man, which is not wanted because it was an old dude, which is not wanted because it happened to not be gay, and which was not wanted because it was a stranger. It still wasn't really the same. Hell no. No, of course not. I got to control the situation immediately. I'm acknowledging part of that is because of what's going on in the world, so I was in tune to what I was supposed to do, how to handle it. But part of it was because, you know, I was a man who's bigger than him and younger than him.

You're 33, and that's, is that the first time that's ever happened? That's a phenomenal point, and yes. Because, like, it still sucks, but, like, it's the first time it's ever happened, which leads me to believe that, like, it's an insanely rare occurrence, especially because you are someone who's put yourself out there and you've done a lot of things and you're not a sheltered person. Yeah, I'd be dressing like I want it. And he's good looking. Right, and he's good looking.

But like, dude, some people, and I know now because of this. In conservative circles, I've been asking for it my whole life. Sure, sure, sure. But because of the Me Too movement and stuff like that, I've seen people who I absolutely believe, especially because they're my friends, who've had it multiple times a week. Like, it's just like every day. And they're like, even when it doesn't happen, I still am constantly worrying about it. Like when I'm in the room with a dude that I don't know,

it takes me longer than it would with anybody else to warm up and be like, okay, I feel okay. Well, dude, for years, we would get questions about redneck. What's the most redneck thing you've ever done? What's the most redneck thing you've ever seen? And sometimes that would trickle into our partners. I remember we were at a show and someone asked, like, you know, how you know your wife's a redneck or what was a moment or whatever.

This is redneck, but it's also kind of a sad story on multiple occasions. I have had to, and I don't want to start. me like it was my problem i'm just saying that like i have realized suddenly we're in a situation meaning me and andy where i i turn and i realize she's either thrown a dude over a table literally happened in knoxville a very large man thrown a guy into a wall like whatever it was because she fights back physically the fact that that's happened multiple times while i'm with her you're right yeah you're there that's crazy dude just one time uh uh I went so I met me and katie met working at this bar in cookville called crawd days it has amazing food during

I don't know if you've heard about it but um I've never tried it I bet it's great um I'd love to one night I was bartending it was super late and Katie had worked that night and she just hung around after her shift and proceeded to get blistered fucking drunk and uh my buddy BD who's a great dude and y'all meet him at y'all will meet him in Nashville but he came in there at one point he's close to closing time. And he came in there and I was behind the bar and he was like, hey, Tray, man. I think you might need to do something about Katie. And he was like, I think you need to go check on Katie.

And I was like, what's up? And he was like, she's just real fucking drunk, man. I walked out on the balcony. And she was literally passed out on a table. Like sitting in a chair, but like face just sprawled out on a table. totally passed out unconscious drunk and when i walked out there there was a fucking this bro in an affliction t-shirt literally poking her arm going sup hey hey sup she's unconscious and i swear to god it happened and i and i just walked up to him

and i was like i got her dude and he was like oh you You got her. It's cool. Whatever. And I was like, yes, my girlfriend. I'm going to take care of it. I got it. And he was like, okay, bro.

All right. Cool, bro, cool. And just walked off. And so I, you know, and I fucking literally picked her up, took her in the office, put her on the couch until the shift was over. And then I took her home after that. But like, you know. What might have happened?

Right. Exactly. Yeah. If I hadn't been there and that type of shit happens all the fucking time. When I was in college, this girl, we had a house park. party. We had a lot of in my senior year. We had like a big apartment, like big for a dorm. You know what I mean? There was like eight people living there. We had like a house, but it was on campus. And it was in the party section of the school or whatever, and we were the happening spot. And we just had a big party. And this girl I barely knew, like someone said, she's passing under your bed. And why just went up there? Because I was like, well, you know, who? Why? What? What? And this dude I played football with, she was awake at this point, slurring drunk. He was talking. He was talking. He was. talking to her and I was like, hey, uh, what's going on? And he closed the door to my room and locked it.

So I start beating on the door. This dude's like a total bro. I'm not friends with them or whatever. Now, I want to say, and I won't say anyone's name. And the reason why is nothing happened. And I found out from her and other people that they had been, he was like yelling at her for being too drunk, which is wrong. But I remember like having this moment of like, you just.

lock me out of my room to fucking to fuck a girl who was passed out just a moment ago like for me and again it goes back to that whole thing you were saying like you're 33 and it just happened to like how sheltered you can be I was just so stunned that a human being just I was wrong about the situation

but what I thought the situation was was like you lock me out of my room to fuck a girl who's too drunk to give you consent so I of course I started beating on the door and threatening them and I ended up going through a window and all that stuff and blah blah blah and we about got in a fight. But. I bet you blah blah on over some hitting stuff.

I mean, I don't remember a lot of it. You know what I mean? I remember like I called him a piece of shit. And he was like, you don't even know the half of it. And I was like, you lock my fucking door again.

I'll burn the whole goddamn house down with you in it. Yeah, that all hit. Yeah. And me and me and my roommate who we called Boomhauer, and I just now realize I've never told you all about that

because he mumbled all the goddamn time. We couldn't understand a fucking word he would say. He'd just walk in him. He'd just walk in him. Anyway, me and him carried her home literally. passed out and like put her to sleep and again she said later like he was yelling at me for being drunk so i told him to go fuck he was like don't act like this you know what i'm saying

but i just remember i don't even say feeling helpless i didn't feel helpless like i went through the bedroom but just being like what the you just locked me out of my room to basically rape the girl and again he wasn't doing that but i couldn't fathom that and it's like well yeah that's what women have to fathom all the time sure i would i bought the i bought this Ford Explorer a few years ago. Uh, and it was used and I found it on like Craigslist or something. And it was owned by, uh, middle age lady, uh, who was divorced. And she was just selling it.

And when I contacted her, you know, we set up a meat so I could, so I could drive the car, check it out or whatever, you know, just like you always do. Yeah. And human stuff. And during the process of that, she was very, very, very like, this has to be in a public place. Right. And like, the place she settled on was this community college in Oak Ridge, Rhone State.

And during the day, broad daylight. Many of my friends went there. Classes going on and shit. Rome State or Rome? Roan County. It's a county. Yeah, Ron County. I went there in high school.

And that's where she picked. And I was like, yeah, it's fine, whatever. And when, and I just went over to Rone State and I texted her, was like, hey, I'm in this parking lot back behind this building. And she was like, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if you'd come around to the front of the building. Like, I literally just pulled in there because it was the first part of the campus I pulled up here or whatever. And I said, okay, fine, I went around there and met her. And then when I met her, like, she was super staying in office the whole time.

And at first, I was, like, bothered by it all. Because I'm not, I'm a nice guy. I would never in a million years do anything like that. But also because you weren't thinking, like, I would never do anything to you don't be. You didn't know why she was being that way. No, no, no, I did. Oh. But in my mind, but I'm saying my knee jerk reaction was like, what the fuck, man?

Like, I'm a, I'm, this, this is bullshit. I'm not going to fucking, why are you afraid of me? And I was, like, upset that she was afraid of me because I'm such a fuck. I'm such a sweetheart. Right. And, uh. But you got, like, really long arms. But then, well, she'd never even met me.

She never seen me or anything. But then that was just. my knee-jerk reaction. I very quickly realized, like, well, dude, you know, they kind of have to be fucking afraid of us, especially strange guys. She's never met whatever. That's the default, man. Like, that's the reality for them is they have to feel that way because, you know, they might get fucking raped and murdered. Like, you never know. And when I realized that, I was like, damn, man, that's pretty fucked up. Fucking sucks. You know what? One of those moments where I really, like, actually thought about it. Do you remember the Anna Brown episode? Yeah. Where we were like,

talking about women's stuff and then there was one in the room. It would be hilarious if we'd have one in the room the whole time. So anyways, what happened to you? But I do, I do sincerely wish we did. Well, I mean, y'all, I don't feel like we can talk about this and not at least touch on, you know, fucking the comedy world, Cosby, Aaron Glazer, which is not a famous version, but it was big in the New York scene. He's currently suing Jasmine Pierce, who's a writer for, I want to be a woman.

want to say Jimmy Fallon for defamation, quote, unquote, no, the lawsuit got dropped. She made some post about how, you know, it's bullshit, there's rapist in comedy, and then he sued her and was like, that's defamation, because he'd gotten accused by multiple women at UCB. Again, that was only famous because inside the comedy world, because he was sort of a low-level player, and Kurt Metzger got involved. But, Cosby, you know, and then, of course, Louis. And it's weird, dude. this is such a fucking white guy thing to say. But it's like with the Cosby thing, like I thought I got it.

Like Geride Carmichael's disappointment that he's talked about very openly. You know what I mean? Like how he loved the Cosby show, but he had to grapple with the fact that that's who Cosby was. And it's like, oh yeah, I get that. Cosby's my hero too.

And then it was Louis. And then I was like, oh, fuck. Now I do get it, kind of. But I got to say, I don't know if you have heroes. Louis's a comedy hero mine. I'm sorry. Just to be fair, we have to draw some kind of fucking distinction.

Between Cosby and Louis? Yeah, man. Those ain't even in the same goddamn ballpark, frankly. I mean, dude, I'm not defending what what Louis did. Yeah, yeah, it's like 64 rape victims. Drawing a parallel between what he did and, yeah. I'm trying to draw. I'm trying to draw, well, I was just trying to draw a parallel between how it affected, you know,

comics, which is probably not the best place to start. You should probably start with the victims and what they did, and then you can draw those distinctions you were talking about. I was just saying, he was certainly someone that, well, I don't have comedy. I do have people I look up to. I just don't expect, fuck, that's not important. It was just wow. A lot of people have been like, oh, are you so disappointed?

I'm like, well, yeah, I'm disappointed, but I'm not like, I didn't think he was perfect. No, I don't think, I mean, I think I'm on the same page with you about that. I don't, I haven't felt. It's easy for me to throw him away. Yeah, I haven't, I haven't felt that level of like, oh, God, I can't believe my fucking hero. It was easy for me to throw him away. But I also recognized. Like when I heard it, I was just like, God damn, Louis.

But I also recognize there are other people that it would be harder for me. But they're not necessarily comedians. But like if Sturgel Simpson, and I don't even want to say it, but there's people that I have on a pedestal. But the pedestal shit aside, I mean, we are in a very male-dominated industry, and the shit fucking keeps happening, or it keeps coming out, I should say, and obviously keeps happening.

I mean, I've read some of those Weinstein stories, man, and, well, I don't think she'd mind me talking about it. Andy and I had a very real conversation with her parents. Her parents were bringing it up, and of course they were, because he's a liberal, and they wanted to talk about that. Oh, Weinstein's a liberal. Yeah, right, okay.

And I think I mentioned this actually on the podcast before, But it was just such a wild moment for Andy to say to her parents like point blank. They were like, you know, they were saying they were making a point, which is true but misguided. They were like, you don't think some girls like wanted to make their career, you know, or whatever? Yeah, I do think that. That's a misguided point. But I understand, yeah, there were probably people who suck Harvey Weinstein's dick, quote, unquote, consensually. And I'm putting in quotes because I don't believe that's.

consensually, if it's like basically I'm trying to get my career out of it. And Andy didn't say to them I would have do that because she wouldn't, but she was like, yeah, I get it. Well, dude, that's a concept is all this time, man. The fucking casting couch or whatever. Like, I mean, everybody knows about that shit. Everybody knows about it.

But no one wants to think about the fact that their own daughter or wife or themselves, if they ever wanted would be put in a position to feel like you've got to choose between you know, your dream or doing something gross and going back to that double

standard thing, that's the difference. I don't feel like it would be hard for me to imagine a scenario where we would be put in that. It's possible. Because we're 30 and not Adonis. Well, dude, this shit happens

all the time. Are you kidding me? To dudes? Yes. With women or with other dudes? Well, with other dudes. Oh, yeah. That's what happened with Terry Cruz. right? Yeah, and fuck,

but he is in Adonis, but anyway. That's what I'm saying. It happened with him because of what we're saying. He got put in that position. Yeah. And I guess to be fair,

a lot of the Kevin Spacey shit. Yeah, and we have talked about this a little bit on a podcast before, and on that episode when we were talking about it, there was that guy that he was a very high-powered agent who mostly repped like... Young boys. Young boys.

And he was doing that shit left and right. That shit happens all the time to guys and girls. But as far as I'm aware, at least so far, almost entirely from other dudes, whether they're gay or straight dudes. But yeah, I mean, no, you right. That ain't going to happen to me and you, but not because we got dicks. I could imagine a scenario where a woman in power, I guess, would do that. But I just feel like it would be different because you'd have so many other options. Does that make sense?

As the dude or as the woman in power? As the sexy young guy, you'd have other options? Right. Like what woman in Hollywood could ruin your career? I don't know. There's probably a couple. There's a couple. Yeah. There's a couple. Yeah. But with Weinstein, I mean, this was the whole thing is he had so many powerful friends and blah, blah, blah, man. Fuck. I'm just sad. It don't hit being a woman. No, very clearly does not. I mean, you know, it does hit to be a woman because y'all are the best, but goddamn.

Yeah, we make it tough on them. A bit of an understatement. I'll say her name. Bridget used to tell me, and she meant it as a metaphor, I think. Well, yeah, because she didn't have a dick. Owner of a comedy club, Trey and I came up in. She used to say...

No, wasn't the owner. Oh, you're right. GM, sorry. You got a sizz the dis. I'd be like, how do I get more stage time? You got to sys the dizz. You got to suck the dick. Yeah, she did mean that as a metaphor, though.

What she meant was... Suck up. to me. You have to worship at the altar of me and what I represent in the rules that I have if you want to do any of this but it didn't, she didn't literally mean, you know, you got to fucking service me sexually or whatever.

Well, what I was going to say though is the level of hatred that I developed for her because of that and then I think about if she had literally meant sexually. Do you know what I mean? Like going about how this whole double standard thing is

bullshit. There's actually a very, very very famous example of what we're talking about right now with a powerful woman or whatever in our industry specifically according to rumors I don't know how much it was substantiated or whatever but it's always rare but it's fucking yeah

really I just whispered her name I don't know why she's like basically did so Mitsy owner of the seller store apparently used to do that as people say we don't know we're not saying that's true we're saying that people have said that I'm saying that is a very well-known rumor that like has existed for years.

Well, I don't want anyone listening right now to think that our goal is to be like, and there are examples. We're saying that people take those examples and run with them. And the point I was making is, and I think you felt this too, the hatred I had for Bridget for being that way.

And she has her side of the story. I was a smart ass, whatever, whatever. I literally can't imagine how I would feel if it was literally a sexual thing. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like if someone, because she reduced me

to this pissant comedian that in somewhat in her defense I was at the time and it was like you gotta fucking suck up to me and it made me furious you know what I mean like you're gonna take your power and hold it over me like that just because you think it's funny

and that's why she was doing it the hatred that I had for her from that when again I was a pissant comedian I can't imagine extrapolating that if it was literally I'm gonna take the power I have over you and try to get you to fuck me.

I totally agree. Don't you think there are also, though, plenty of examples of people, dudes and girls, that like purposefully try to try to try to take advantage of that type of thing? Yeah, but I don't see how that's relevant.

It's not to... Well, I mean, it's relevant to the overall discussion. But I don't know. see how it's relevant to the... If you're not one of those people and how you feel about it? To what it feels like, it's to be in that position. Like, if you're someone who gets put in that position and you don't want to be, if you're a woman and Louis C.K. is your boss, and he says,

I want to jack off in front of you. And you know that going against him and turning him in would, would, like, damage your career and blah, blah, blah. I don't see how it... I couldn't make the argument to you. Well, you know, some girls be doing that. Well, this is a genuine... this is a genuine question I'm asking right now and I'm only just now thinking about it. Like where do you draw the line or whatever when it comes to, like since I've moved out to L.A.

I've done some of this shit. I've went to, you know, I've went to some whatever Hollywood parties and shit. And it's always, always some banging young, you know, females in there running around like that I think are you can't have a party like that without those people is what I'm saying like that's part of what goes into having that party is having attractive young women there like it or if you run a club it's the same thing you let all the hot young girls in whatever or you know what I mean like you want that everybody wants that when it comes that type of thing and a lot of them like they show up and so if you're a hitter in that scenario right always going to these things and always surrounded by them like where is is, I don't know. Like, where, where's it go from being like, this is just the way this world fucking works to, this is some fucked up toxic predatory behavior just going on here?

Is it just when you force it on? Have you ever had a problem with that? A problem with what? Just having hot girls in a party. Huh? Personally knowing where that line is. You haven't. Right. You say you just know.

Like if you're one of those people and you go out and all that's around, that is what it is. But when you get into some meeting, it's like a business. It's an ostensible business meeting. Well, let me make sure. I'm not even going to say that because it can happen at a party. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. You're saying that you're acknowledging that in LA there is, and this is in and of itself. Right.

and this is in and of itself you know obviously part of the for lack of sound you know for a better word and that risk of sounding like a total fucking cliche the patriarchy whatever has set it up to where like they're just be young pretty girls about

yes and those young pretty girls oftentimes if you engage with them you will come to understand it seems like they want to flirt with rich powerful men they yeah they fly you go to these parties and they you know they flock to the hit in this dudes there whether they're old ass fucking whatever

like that's how that's just how it works and that's I don't I guess what I'm saying is do you have any problem with that no right why would I have a problem with that like I understand but here's what I would have a problem with if one of those young pretty girls went and engaged with some man

and then accused him of something after they had set him up and I'm certain that has happened in the world before that is clearly not as rampant a problem as the abuse of the other side of that power paradigm. However, I recognize it. Bill Berry had a great bit about it. It was about gold diggers, you know what I mean?

Which is a different sort of thing. I'm saying it frustrates me that we have to conflate and or relate the two. I know they're part of the same world. I'm not saying it's wrong to relate them. It's all part of sex. It's all part of gender relationships and gender power struggles. I know that. I know they're related.

But when you just walk up to a writer, a writer on your show, and you say something like I want to jack off in front of you. Or in the Cosby scenario where you invite someone over who wants to be in the industry or wants to be a model and then you drug them or whatever. And I know you know this. I'm not lecturing you. I know what I'm about to say. That's so different than. two people at a party were talking drunk and they have very different versions of what was said.

Obviously what's frustrating is both sides abused that. Do you know what I mean? Like a lot of guys who are predators, they want to claim, their defense is that it was that scenario. Right, well, that, yeah, right. That's what I was going to say. I'm seriously, I'm not,

this is all literally just part of this back and forth we're having. and I'm not taking their fucking side at all. I'm just trying to be like, I don't even know if devil's advocate's the right word here, but like, if you're one of those dudes, and that's the world you live in 95% of the time, like,

when you're in another situation, a casting room or a meeting or whatever, and in your mind, you're like, I know what this is. I'm surrounded by this all the time. And then you just say, I had like to jack off in front of you.

Gross. And then the person's like, no. Right. And if I'm saying hypothetically, then you're like, oh, shit,

oh, my bad, totally misread this. Like, how fucked up is that? It's fucked up and it's sexual harassment. It's not a crime.

Right. It's something you can be sued about or lose your job over and you should. Right. And it's something that, in my opinion, and this might not be popular people, shouldn't be a crime

because of what you're laying out. Right. Because you... Like, if you're that dude... But hold on. I want to make sure... And maybe you know this and you're just laying it out.

But I feel like we're kind of talking about Louie here because that happened. Right. But another time, that's not what happened. Yeah, right. Yes. There were multiple... Like, you know what I mean?

Like, one time it was that and another time it wasn't that. Yeah. It was like they didn't say no, so I just get my dick out. They didn't say yes either. You know what I mean? And that's like pretty clearly bylaw. And in my opinion, socially,

and this goes back to what I'm saying. We can create... gray area hypotheticals. 99% of the time when you're in a situation, dude, you know what's right and wrong. You know what's up. Yeah, I agree with that. And I go back to you said, like I've never,

I'm not a fucking high-powered fucking, you know, or I'm not a Hollywood power broker. But if I was, I still would not be having these problems. But what I was going to say is like I've never, I don't know, I feel like I've never once had a problem discerning that type of thing. Of course not. Like, I've never once felt like. Well, you're decent and you think about how other people feel, and that's really what it is about.

I ain't going to name no names or nothing or even say what the person's position was or anything at all. But recently, we had a conversation. I had a conversation with a guy about all this. And he said to me, like, you know, well, Trey, I mean, seriously, man, you know, you're getting more popular and everything. Like, have you taken inventory? And I was like, I was like, what do you mean? He goes, have you taken an inventory? And I don't mean the past couple of you.

I know you're married, whatever. He's like, I'm talking all the way back to, you know, since you became an adult, whatever. Have you taken inventory of any of the times that, you know, you might have done something that could be perceived as crossing the line or whatever. He was asking you if you have, like, reviewed your sexual history. And I said, and I told him this in the conversation. I said, I mean, honestly, yeah, I have. I have thought about that. And I'm pretty sure I'm okay.

because I'm 100% sure you're okay. Because I'm not a fucking predator. Exactly. I've never, I've never been in a situation like that. And that's... Because I'm not a fucking creep. Dude, and that's...

Like, it's not that weird. That's the whole... Or hard to understand. Exactly. That's the social aspect of this. It's not complicated. It can get complicated like in a courtroom. And it should...

And look, and this might not have for people too, but it's something that I've seen on a lot of, like, defense lawyer pages and blogs, the Believe All Women campaign. As a social construct, that is positive. If you're a defense lawyer who cares about justice and standards of evidence and proof, it's scary. It's a nightmare. It sounds very, very like not what we do in a court of law. Right.

But while social movements and attitudes can sway courtrooms and sway jurors, for sure, luckily it doesn't change the standards of evidence. You know what I mean? And to be fair, and I'll admit this as a defense lawyer who's usually pro-defendant, sex crimes tend to be the least litigated, the least tried, and the least prosecuted. And so, you know, I think we could, even though I'm very anti-the-government, putting people in prison in general, I would say that in this one regard, we could stand to swing more the other way.

But another thing I was going to say, you know, going back to Hollywood and that whole culture, any culture, man. Weinstein, you know, going back to that. Dude, it's totally reasonable to imagine that seven times in a row he called someone into a room, a hotel room, and said, this is a meeting about a movie, and it was a woman. And the woman did whatever it would massage him or whatever. massage him or whatever it was he wanted to do. Let him jack off in front of her. Because she wanted the role.

Two things. That doesn't and shouldn't mean shit to the eighth person. You didn't want to do it? You know what I'm saying? Like it's not fair. If I'm a woman and I'm in that situation and I don't want to be in this situation, this is fucking creepy and you're holding this thing over me

and this is gross and I don't want it and I'm not consent of this and why are you naked? I didn't want you to be naked. That's a crime. You've exposed yourself to me. It doesn't matter that the last seven times that you did it, the woman consented. You didn't ask me, you just got undressed like,

you've committed a fucking crime. It doesn't matter what happened seven times in a row. A, and then B, I feel like we've got to acknowledge that for those seven, it's very possible that any number of them from one to seven, you know, might not have actually wanted it, but they're just in a really fucked up society where Harvey Weinstein's very super powerful. You know what I mean? And that's where that whole double.

double standard or that whole well let's talk about it let's how many like with again with andy's parents like how many women were okay with that it it doesn't matter number one because if you're a woman who's not okay with it it doesn't matter how many were okay with it you still got a crime committed against you number one and then number two the woman who were quote unquote okay with it what does that mean some of them may have been literally okay with it right some of them may have been okay with it in the sense of this is my only option and that feels like a crime in a some way. You know what I mean?

Like this is my only option. It feels like blackmail almost. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, like to me, I feel like, but again, I mean, this is the type of thing. It's very easy for me to say because I'm a fucking dude and I don't feel physically threatened and stuff. But like, the one thing about all this shit is, and I'm not saying I'm unique in this. I'm sure a lot of people feel this way. But like, I just haven't, it doesn't make any of any less shitty. but I haven't been surprised by

fucking any of this shit. Like that's why I have this... Kind of makes it more shit. I have this rule. Right? Doesn't that make it more shitty? Yeah. So that happens and you're like, yeah.

Right. Well, I have this rule in our careers about I don't do anything involving my kids and I don't mean anything fucking weird. I mean like there's been times with either people are writing an article or people are doing a piece on me

or there's like a fucking production company wants to do a docufoil thing about with my whole family in it, like a reality show. which I would never do that for completely other reasons. But anytime anything like that's come up, and it's like photos, well,

we want to see you being a dad and whatever, and I'm very proud of myself as a dad, but I don't involve my kids in any way publicly, pictures of them or whatever else. Like anytime that comes up, I'm immediately like, no, I'm not doing that. Because you're a good dad. That's a total non-starter.

And the reason is, is because I don't trust these motherfuckers, man, because I know, like, I've heard the goddamn stories. I know how it is. And it's like, I ain't letting you fucking goddamn reptilian husk anywhere near my fucking children. Right. You know, as long as I'm, like, I'm an adult man. I can navigate the fucking waters.

And also I should say, as you already said, I'm not getting fucking, you know what I mean? I think that was you. I'm not getting targeted or molested. No, you said, you said, I mean, you know, dude, it ain't happening to us. I'm like, yeah, because we're fucking 30 and not Adonis is or whatever. but I'm not dealing with that. Everybody I've dealt with in Hollywood has been a fucking, has been a sweetheart.

They really have. But still, you know, I don't want my kids even remotely involved in any of it for this reason, because I know there's a fucking dark underbelly there, and I'm just, you know, keeping that shit at arm's length. And that in and of itself is revelatory. I just read an article about Facebook guidelines and how some of my friends

who comment in New York are claiming Kayla Avery is one of them. She keeps getting banned for like commenting that men are trash on some post that some dude made that's really like sexist or whatever. She'll get banned and he won't and it's like a thing you guys can look into it. I think there's an article.

I want to say in Vox about Marsha Belski Elsa Wath and Kayla Aver. You guys if you're listening you can research this is a totally side issue but it's kind of not about Facebook banning women for responding to sexist jokes but not banning the person who made the joke.

But that aside, the joke that the thing that Elsa got been for, Elsa and I used to, we did volunteer work together in New York, and she's a great comic, and she marches with Black Lives Matter, and she, like, speaks to those rallies and stuff.

There was a picture of a dude holding a shotgun with his daughter, like at prom or something. Was it prom, or was it one of those fucking weird-ass daddy-daughter purity ballspins? It was just like prom. Okay.

And it was like, you know, don't come to my mom. house or get her home early it was like a meme like a joke and she said her comment on it she shared it and commented see men know how trash men are that's the basis of this joke or something like that right like she's pointing out like the joke here is that even men acknowledge that other men are fucking for sure nightmares or whatever without a doubt she got banned for that because it was like hate speech towards men or whatever that conversation aside and whatever Facebook guidelines are being weird.

What you just said is sad. Like if you think about it, what you just said about your own children is sad. Like, the fear that you have is sad and then you, like, look at women who have it about themselves, not just their kids. Dude, that's a sad

state of the fucking society. Like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to be a downer. I'm sorry to... That's sad. Is there another word for that? No, but I also think that's just a fucking reality man like and i also sure hollywood is way more high profile and hollywood is probably

worse in a lot of regards when it comes to that but that shit is not at all fucking unique to hollywood no no i said society for a reason i'm not it's not just hollywood well yeah i mean yeah and it is super quote unquote but it's like but what is it like can we not do anything about it i'm not saying we shouldn't try to do anything i'm not saying you are saying i'm saying it's like i don't know i i don't know what i'm saying like yeah it's sad but like What do you do? Right.

And I agree with you. Right. Like, it is what it is. But, like, what if people were saying that about how colored people, and I even said color because I was thinking about the 60s, Jesus Christ, black people who were called colored had to use different water fowls, colors only, whites only. What if people were like, yeah, it sucks, but that's how it is? And I'm not saying we're complicit, and maybe we are.

I don't know, but, like, it feels like, and I kind of hope that, like, you know, 30, 40, 50 years, from now, this is as draconian as that. But, and this is what makes me sad, I don't see how. With black and white, it wasn't easy. It is complicated. It's still complicated. It's always going to be complicated. But it was different in the sense of it was like, hey, black and white people are the same.

With this, I feel like there's so much more room for. blaming women, number one, accepting it as some sort of biological thing. Well, this is, you know, man like to fuck. Cynicism seems easier to accept in this world. Does that make sense? Yeah. But is that, am I being short-sighted? No, no, you're right.

Hope is a line, only the darkness is real. We need to wrap this up, probably. Yeah, we got long. We got to go to a show. We've got to go to comedy now. Yeah, we got a good interview this week. It has nothing to do with anything that we've talked about. Corey's going to give you a nice intro to it.

He had to leave, by the way. That's why he hasn't been silent for the last 20 minutes. That is true. Yeah, he had to leave. He had to poop real bad. Corey had to poop. Anyway, he's going to tell you about our interview with Mr. Hayes-Carl, who's an awesome fucking dude and an awesome songwriter out of Texas.

So you're going to enjoy it. Anyway, yeah. Excuse me. Lord God. the Ravens. We don't yet. All right. Well, the guys did a very good job there of introducing Hayes Carl.

But I figured I'd go ahead and do it a little bit too. Hayes Carl is one of our favorite singer-songwriters. He's been one of my favorites for a very long time. Matter of fact, when me and Amber were living together, not even dating, we were living together, I took her to a Hayes-Carl concert and she had a blast. She had so much fun, in fact, that I thought I had sealed the deal. But it turns out she would. have rather gone home with Hayes Carl.

So no go for me on that one. He's a fantastic songwriter. He was Austin's musician of the year last year. I can't say enough good things about the guy. So just check him out. Hayescarl.com. It's H-A-Y-E-S-C-R-L-L. I trust that you people know how to spell that,

but you know, Carl's not often spelled with two else. So go to Hayescarl.com. Go check him out on tour. It's a fantastic show. Buy all his records. Man, because again, He's one of the good ones doing it. He's also been on every single well-read playlist that we've had,

whether it's our road playlist or our pre-show playlist. He's just phenomenal and a sweetheart of a dude. So enjoy this interview with the one and the only Hayes Carl. Thank you all. Uski. Yeah, we're sitting in my hotel room in Denver, Colorado, with the incomparable Hayes Carl. Thanks for joining us.

We appreciate you being here. Oh, that's good to see them. We're all big fans of yours. I wanted to start out just because, I want to just get to, I don't want to make sure that I asked this question before it's all said and done, and it's sort of random. Does the date April 8th have any, like, significance to you? Because two of your albums came out on April 8th. Oh, that's right.

Was that just random or arbitrary? I think that was just random. I tried to put, I like to put records out in the beginning of the year just because then the whole kind of year can unfold. You can, you know, get on festivals in the summer and, you know, make. the year-end list so everybody knows how great you are right and uh yeah so you know February April June I think June's the latest I've ever released a record my first one but uh but yeah so that would that there was just sort of coincidence okay because that's my birthday oh that's why I wondered I wondered if any significance to you it has significance to all of us being my exactly yes it being

my birthday but uh okay well Drew was talking you a little bit off might before we started and this was something I also wanted to talk to you about uh one thing i really appreciate about your music is how like you're totally able to be funny and it not be like cheesy cheesy or it's a whole thing now or you know what i mean like you go back and forth between like you have these awesome totally you know serious or traditional songs that are great but then you have these songs that i think are hilariously funny and i just respect your ability to do that uh because i feel like a lot of times people I feel like a lot of musicians that are funny are just considered like, you know, joke musicians or whatever.

And I don't feel like you have that going at all. And I just think that's pretty cool. So what's your, like, where did that come from? Like you're a comedy fan or what? I am. I am a comedy fan. And, you know, I'm a serious songwriter fan. But to me, comedy was always, or humor was always the secret weapon as a songwriter.

Right. you know, it was the body blows before the knockout punch. And my goal was always to, you know, what I told myself was, I want to be able to mix my laugh and cry in the same song. I think if I could accomplish that, it was, that was something special. And, you know, I just, I was drawn to humorous stuff early on, whether it was Randy Newman or Jimmy Buffett or Todd Snyder is a huge influence, Ray Wiley Hubbard.

And these are guys that, you know, are serious, profound songwriters, but they inject humor in there. And I think it was Keith Richards. I'm stealing his quote, but he said that's the secret weapon in rock and roll. And, you know, it's, you want to have a good time. But life is serious and it's funny and it's sad and it's all those things. And I don't know. I like to have a good laugh. I'm so glad to hear you say one of those names on that list because our dear listeners may know I've had to not necessarily from these guys, but just over my life, defend how much I love Jimmy Buffett.

And so many nights have ended up with me drunk going, he's done more than fucking Margaritaville. God damn. So I just wanted to tell you, thank you, because I think he's one of our greatest living songwriters. He's fantastic. Well, you know, when I used to live, I lived in the suburb of just north of Houston that we had a big performing arts pavilion. like a 15,000 seat amphitheater. And he would come, there were bands that would come do the cycles. So every year, Jimmy Buffett would come. And I don't remember how I got turned on to him, but I was about 14 or 15.

And growing up where I grew up, you know, it was sort of a, it was a golfing community. It was a playing community in a pine forest. And this idea of, you know, experiencing, more than was there was always really appealing to me. And, you know, my parents were attorneys. And and I liked this idea of a gypsy lifestyle and the drinking and the drugging and the running around and the travel and all that stuff. And so Buffett at that point in my life represented that to me. And I was just sort of a fledgling writer. And, you know, these tales of sailing the world and having

these adventures was immensely appealing to me. And so I got into it. We'd go to the shows every year. I wrote him a letter when I was 16. I was in Key West and a Margarita Vell there and I wrote him a letter because they have a mailbox. You could drop it in for Jimmy Buffett. And I said, Jimmy, I'm a songwriter and I think you should take me on your sailboat and we would have a good time. But then my... Humorous of teenagers. That's awesome. Yeah. And one of my first songs was called Jimmy, I want to sail with you. And I think I rhymed islands and pylons or something in it. But my senior quote, my buddies and I were all into this.

and we all use Buffett quotes as our senior quotes. And mine was supposed to read, I've read dozens of books about heroes and crooks, and I've learned much from both of their styles, which I thought was a magnificent line, yeah. But the editor of the yearbook, I don't know if they had it out for me or whatever, but it said,

I've read books about criminals and stuff, and I learned things from it. So that's my senior quote. Oh, that's phenomenal. I lost some of its charm. well i think like when you were saying you know music is should be allowed to be both serious and funny and one swoop because that's how life is and all that i feel the same way about uh tv and movies and things like that too like a lot

of my favorite ones like dude the cohen brothers movies are hilarious uh breaking bad is hilarious uh you know what i mean and they're also super i mean hell game of thrones is funny at times yeah i mean like so he's the same thing It's the human experience. Right. To me, a comedian, you know, the stuff that's the funniest because it's painfully true. Right. And when you can hit somebody with that, it's, yeah, I mean, it's sort of flipped.

Like, for me, you're, you know, you inject the humor so that the heaviness of the moment can really resonate. and maybe with a comedian you give them the depth so that the humor comes across. It's just, it's a more kind of cathartic thing when it's not just a poop joke. It's, you know, it's something people can relate to and there's a truth and an honesty to it

that, you know, they relate. And then there's a really full experience. I have a question related to that. Nothing against poop jokes. Right, yeah, about side. Well, I mean, you didn't shit on dick jokes as long as you don't do that um and you sort of touched on it to be honest with what you just said but no matter what i'm going to do a bit about i got to get i got to get laughs

do you have a thing you're chasing when you're writing a song i mean is it emotion or is it just that the melody sounds good and you believe that is a good song no it's an emotion it's a story i want to tell and and you know laughs are not what i'm going for but i try and write with an eye to to the humerus. You know, John Prine is an example of that where it's like the way he phrases things is so quirky and human and unique and

universal at the same time. And that's what I always loved is something that there's a million love songs and it's hard to not be generic and sort of do the same cliched stuff that everybody's done. And finding your voice is

key. And for me it's those details and those unique things. So I start there, like finding those unique things and that helps relay the kind of universal theme. So I'm just trying to find things that resonate with me. And yeah, sometimes you just write something like that sounds cool. What does it mean? And then you work backwards and try and make sense of it and find the story that's inside

of it. But, yeah, I don't know if that answers the question. John Prine has a lyric that says, God help her please, she's nailed her knees to some drugstore parking lot. and come back to us Barbara Lewis. And the first couple times I heard that didn't hit me. And the third time I was like, it's the most beautiful way I've ever heard of saying,

she's sucking dick. You know what I mean? Like that's, he could have said that. And it'd been, you know, it'd been a hell of a Rodney Carrington song. But like,

because he didn't, it's such a John Prine way of, I don't know, I've always loved that. Yeah, somebody, you know, be able to articulate something

that other people feel or think, but in your own unique way, that's, that to me has always been the key and why the guys that I'm drawn to, I'm, I'm drawn to because they had their unique voices. So it's Christopherson,

Prine, Townsman, San. It's a long list, but they all have their very distinctive styles. Like you can tell it's their song. So one thing that I've wondered about, and I've thought about your songs, some of them, for years now, and it's also directly relevant to the three of us. So you're from Texas. You're a Texas dude.

And you are in, you know, again, I would classify, a lot of your music as country, but like Drew said, it's like, that's not, you don't do that anymore, because country means like fucking Florida, Georgia Line and all that shit. So a lot of people would call you Americana, I guess, but whatever. You're in that realm. And you've got songs like, uh, she left me for Jesus, which is just the fucking best. That's the first song I played of yours for my dad who passed away in 2013, but he had great taste of music. And I played him that song and he fucking loved it. But also like, another like,

you, that song where you talk about, you say some things that I know have to piss off a lot of people, you know, in the state of Texas or in the South in general, and I'm just basing that off having grown up in the South my entire life. And knowing how those people would respond to lines like, you know, well, if I ever find Jesus, I'm kicking his ass, or which, again, phenomenal. but I know how a lot of people would react to that and I just wonder how that's actually been for you from your perspective and like how much do you care?

How much is it affected you? Just all that shit. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, that song, she left me for Jesus. I co-wrote with a guy named Brian Keene and he came with the idea. I don't know that I ever would have had that idea, but it was something he was kind of going through, actually.

And we tried to turn it on it. head and I said you know the fun way to look at this is if there was a miscommunication or misunderstanding and this guy didn't realize that you know when the girl says that he's found she's found Jesus right that he thinks that she's running around on him and then I thought you know there's all I have a real problem with the hypocrisy of of some Christians and you know the the idea was there are people who call them themselves Christians, but would beat up Jesus if he walked into a bar because of his appearance or because of his beliefs. And there's a real disconnect there between what those teachings were and the actual sort of, you know, application in real life for a lot of people.

And so that's what I was aiming at was, you know, just poking fun at the hypocrisy of some of that. And, you know, I tried to make, we tried to make it as clear as we could and made, you know, at a certain point, we couldn't dumb it down anymore. It was just like, you know, people get it or they don't. And a lot of people didn't get it. And, you know, it's one of those. The hell you say. Surprise, surprise. But, you know, and I asked, I asked Ray Wiley Hubbard when I wrote it.

I said, you know, what do you think about this? Because he'd had this experience with Redneck Mother where it was like this sort of joke song. I mean, he's on a couple fronts. One, I didn't want to, I don't want to be known as a shtick artist. Right. And, you know, you run the risk of having, you know, the dead skunk song or against the wall redneck mother or something that the majority of people identify with you for your career.

And that can be a blessing and a curse. I played it for Ray. And he said, well, you know, that cat's really hard to get back in the bag. And it's true. Like, once that's out there, that's, there's no taking it back. And I put it out, and it was interesting because iTunes made it. They used to have, I don't know if they still do this, but they'd have a free download of the week. And mine was on there, and it was the lowest rated song in the history of iTunes.

And they didn't play the, they just played the chorus. If I ever find Jesus, I'm kicking his ass. It was like 12 seconds of that. And it got like 80,000 thumbs downs and they had like a 9% approval rate. That, and the other... That's so classically how a good joke gets treated. Is that right there? Like, they take just one part of it and put that without like the rest of the context,

and it just totally fucks it up. It makes you look like the biggest asshole or whatever in the world. Yeah, so I went from this high of like, oh, I'm going to... Out of all the musicians in the world, I'm big time to the world hates me and doesn't get me and thinks of something else. But you realized, was there a time frame where you didn't know, You didn't figure out the mystery as to why it was rated so low. Like, you knew immediately they played the one fucking clip, and that's why this is happening.

Yeah, I mean, I looked at it, and I mean, I heard that, and I knew pretty much immediately. But it was still kind of holding my breath. Like, how is this going to go over? I played it a few times, and in a live setting, you can sell it. Sure. You can I play it slow, make sure everybody got the joke. You know, and we did a really slow version that I put on the vinyl that's sort of, I think, more understandable. But on the CD, we just had sort of a...

honky tonk shuffle and some of the nuances lost I think all you hear is kick his ass and so it's just been an interesting thing you can't control it I stood behind what I felt when we wrote the song but there's been a couple things like with that you're working get misinterpreted in a lot of ways and not just you know people being pissed off about it but there's a line in there I bet he's a commie or even worse yet a Jew well i was thinking that's for the other side right i mean it'd be hard for him to be mad about that well yeah i mean that was the idea of like you know you're typical kind of uh you know close-minded redneck who would just have fucking

kami or he's a jew you know like um but you know going to church on sunday at the same time that that sort of disconnect um but anyway i would be playing shows and it's certain at a certain point I started realizing that people like I would get to that line and I felt there were a couple nights where I'd feel this really weird tension and it was people were excited about that line for the wrong reasons you know they wanted to be able to shout out even worse yet at you and then I felt like it was just a really ominous sort of dark feeling so I've tweaked that line but um you know I played at a I played it at churches I played it at a synagogue once I nearly got in a fight with the head of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League.

He came out after a show. I was on tour with Dirk's Bentley. I'm sorry, I'm going to go on forever about this, but I was doing a tour with D.C. and the McCurry brothers, and it wasn't going well. My shows were not really working, and I had this show in D.C. And it was great. I had an encore. It was like the first good show for me of the tour. But it was in a synagogue. And you know, Lewis Black had played the night before. And it was like, this is not, yes, it's a place of worship, but it's not. you know, some sacrilegious stuff has been done in here before. Right.

And I came out and this guy goes, was that you on stage? And I'm just riding high because I just had this great moment. And I go, yeah, thinking he's going to high-five me. And he's, you motherfucker. And it starts coming after me. And it turned out that he just heard that line and was really upset. And he was there with a senator. And the next day, I thought we were going to be on CNN or Fox or something like it was going to be this big story.

But the next night, I'm playing the rhyming. and I know the song's not going to go well in the rhyming but I thought well you know I just played it in a synagogue I'm either I either mean this or I don't and I got to back it up here and I was pretty certain it wouldn't go well and it didn't I just kept thinking I got booed at the rhyming and I mean not like you know it wasn't like thousands of people but it was you know there was a smattering of booze and I just kept going what would Johnny Cash do what would Johnny

cashed you. And, uh, um, but you know, it's just, yeah, you, you're not, you're not, not everybody's going to get what you do. Well, the, uh, yeah, but I'm pretty y'all in the choir on that way. Yeah, but we, uh, but you were talking about, you realize to repeat some people at your shows that were really looking forward to the Jew part just so they could scream. Mm-hmm. It worse yet a Jew. That type of thing, I mean, like, on the one hand, it doesn't, because I deal with dumbass people on the internet and shit like that all the time. I get how people can just be powerfully unable to get a fucking joker to understand what something's about. But at the same time, that type of thing blows my mind because, like, we've also talked to,

like, the guys in the drive-by truckers or also a more somebody that deals with that shit all the time as fucking Wheeler Walker Jr. You know, like that guy. Like, has people, like, I don't get how someone can listen to fucking Wheeler. and not really get what's going on there or whatever, like take it seriously. But he sends us, he tweets and shit, but he's also sent us,

like, pictures of people to shows and stuff who very definitely do not, like that are not in on the joke at all. And I, like, that sucks for him, like,

because on one of those, people are paying coming to shows, whatever else, but it's like, you know, it's just, it's a goddamn shame having that type of shit happen. I never wanted my music to be the sort of rallying point for,

for, anti-semitism. Right. It was totally not why I got into this. And it was the exact opposite of the point of the song in the first place. So it's tough. You know, people are going to misunderstand it. But you just do what you do.

And that's, you know, the world we live in. I did a song with this girl named Lolo, who's from Jackson, Tennessee. And she lives in New York. But we wrote this song called Fragile Men. And it's about, it was right after Charlottesville. and we made a video and it was sort of this mocking faux empathy for these poor clansmen

and neo-Nazis and about how nobody understands them and how hard it must be and everything and we made this video with all of these pictures of them and it's basically an anti-clan Nazi racism song posted it on Facebook and it was the most reactions I've ever gotten

to anything I've ever done And, you know, about half of them were people who were furious with me and upset with me because I was calling out Nazis. And I thought, at what point did we become, well, one, they were sort of proving the point of the song about fragile men, people who get their feelings hurt because somebody, you know, disagrees with them. And, but just the vitriol and the animosity, because I had, you know, don't. what I thought was a pretty middle of the road statement.

Right. That's a pretty sturdy limb you're going out on that. Yeah. It's like, Nazi men. Right. Yeah, exactly. It's a whole new world now. It really is.

It really is. Were they your fans? Like, do you feel like a lot of them are? I mean, you know, it was interesting to back and forth between my fans because people would say, you know, I'm done with you, never going to listen to you again. And you've sold out to the corporate world. I'm not sure who they think, you know, George Soros wrote me a check to make this happen or whatever, but...

They're going to take that sound bite off this podcast. George Soros wrote me a check to make this happen. And then, you know, stay out of politics or whatever. I'm like, this is not politics. This is human condition experience stuff and something I think we should all agree on. And then I had a lot of fans coming in and say, have you not been paying attention to him for all these years? Because while I'm not overtly political in a lot of this stuff,

I do try and drop subtle hints throughout. And there is some stuff that's fairly... over it. Right, it's the same thing with like, again, the truckers went through it and Isabel went through it some of his last album and he talked about it some or whatever. My reaction to each of those instances was like, how can you have, say you've been

a fan of these guys for 10 plus years or whatever and not fucking have known that? Like, how much of a fan could you be? That's the type of thing I'm talking about that just blows my mind, you know? Well, watching Jason, this has been interesting to me with this last record, but the

white man's world. Right. watching the the blowback that he got from that. And watching how he's dealt with it and how he's articulated what he feels and how he sees his role as an artist. It's been really interesting and inspiring in a way

because it's you know, it's easy to and some people have no problem going on on a limb and some people are averse to it. I'm not thrilled with the idea of stirring shit up or people being pissed off at me. I just wanted people to come out to my shows I'm still kind of amazed that they do on some level and grateful for it.

But yeah, you know, at some point you decide as an artist, are you going to take a stand or not? And it doesn't mean you have to sing about politics, but it's interesting to me how upset people get because their good time is ruined or their vibe or safe zone where they don't have to listen or think about these things is shattered because an artist writes about this. And that is the role of an artist with comedian, actor, musician, songwriter, whatever. And we all go about it in different ways, but it's to interpret the human experience and put it out there for people to look at in a certain way. And sometimes you just want to get drunk and dance to the song. And I get that. But yeah, for people like Isbell or the truckers or sometimes even myself, it shouldn't come as a total shock when we inject that in there. It's also interesting to me.

It's a hero myth, right? It's always been shocking to me. Well, it's not shocking anymore because it keeps happening. But when I see people so upset that someone that they love, like this last album was great, but this new album has White Man's World on it, or this new album has She Left Me for Jesus on her, or whatever it is, and you go, okay, go get a beer during that song. It's still the same person.

And like I said, I've stopped being shocked by it. But it's like people have. I don't know if they put folks up on pedestals. I mean, do you think that's what it is? Or is it just? I think they don't want to have to think about it. I think it upsets them, and that's the deal. The noise forcing anybody to listen to my music.

And so really, why would you care? And I think what the feedback is, don't have an opinion. That's the feedback. Unless I agree with it. Unless I agree with it. If I agree with it, I'm there. You know, if it's Ted Nugent doing it, fuck yeah, I'm in. Sure.

You know, but if you do it, you need to be quiet. But am I the only one that's like, But why are you getting mad about it? Like, okay, I don't like the opinion. Then go away. Like, why get on the internet and throw the vitriol out there? What is that? Is it because, like, they think they know you, so you owed them something?

Yeah, I don't know. Man, I don't, I mean, I think people, I don't do, some people are just fucking wired that way to get on the internet and just bitch about whatever. And that's like, that's the thing that's just most recently happened to them. so that's what they're going to bitch about. I know that this is a big red herring in what we do and in the world right now, but like this Louis shit. Louis C.K. was a fucking comedic hero of mine. I didn't want him to turn out to be a piece of shit.

But when he did, it didn't wreck my world. Why would it, I don't, I just don't understand why people are like, what attachment do you have to this stranger? Yeah, I guess maybe it is that, you know, there's some transference there or you're vocalizing their life, you know, and you're the soundtrack to their life or you're somebody who's been able to articulate something they felt in their love life

or, you know, in some other part of it. And then when something comes into that soundtrack that doesn't jive with that and all of a sudden, oh, I got to, this thing that I could depend on, I can't depend on anymore, you know, it throws them off. But people don't want to know that Johnny Cash was a political activist. They just want to identify them a certain way.

That's definitely what it is. Like if you had made a song with someone around the time you made fragile men, but it was like pro, like it just for whatever reason I hadn't been paying it. It would have upset me. I wouldn't have gone on the internet and like throw, you know, I just would have been like,

well, that sucks. But I guess I think that you're right. Like I'm trying to imagine it going the other way is what I'm saying. And if it did, yeah, I guess I'd be hurt because it'd be like, this is the soundtrack of them.

Like the drive-by truckers. Like if they had broken my heart by going a different way or whatever, because they meant so much to me when I was 17. I guess that would upset me. No, I hear you too, but like, I go about it. Like, if I found out tomorrow that Stan Lee was the biggest Trump supporter, biggest fascist asshole, that blows. I'm still going to see Avengers when it comes out.

You know what I mean? Well, even if you don't go see Avengers if you're like, I choose not to, but like, why? But what the fuck? Yeah, exactly. What the fuck ever? I'm like, well, you know, that sucks, but I like the guy's work. Right. So it's also like you say.

said, you know, you said, I thought I was making a pretty reasonable statement when I said, I don't care for Nazis. Like, that, that's how I, and granted, especially in the past, like, 18 months or whatever since my, like, actual career has started, you know, I've, this has not been true of everything. But, like, early on, I was starting out in comedy and early on in this, too, that's how I felt about a lot of this shit I was saying, because I was just saying, like, gay people. people are human beings.

You know what I mean? Or like racism is bad in my opinion. Like I wasn't, you know, like I wasn't going on. Yeah, you're not really going on a big one there. I didn't think so. And I don't consider myself really pushing a lot of buttons, you know. Right. But people fucking, man, people hated it, dude.

When they first saw me, like, so many people were just in, just enraged by, you know, again, me just saying I think people should be treated, you know. I think there's a massive lack of empathy in the world right now. And you watch, you know, I'm sure you've touched on the NFL players and stuff. And to me, that disconnect between, you know, you're either on this side, who's framing it a certain way or you're on this side, but not hearing each other and just coming up with an easy, quick solution of, you know, well, they do this. And no matter what they say about the reason of the causes, I'm going to ignore that and I'm going to frame it as they're bad and I'm good and they're bad and therefore I can be angry at them and

And and I think everybody's taking sides. There's tribalism going on in a massive way and You know I'm addicted to comment sections and I got to break the habit but like every news story I read about myself anymore. Okay, I don't stop doing that but yeah, but it just political news stories I'll I'll read something and it will be something like that. It will say say there was some horrible story. It's me sad. And something I think, okay, this is something that everybody's going to agree on. And I'll

go on there. I mean, I'm trying to think it's the worst thing that I could think of without you know, someone is murdered and in a hate crime. And I think I'm going to go on there and say, I'm going to see 100% unanimous support in this situation for

how this was an evil and awful thing. And every time, I don't. Well, fuck, man. there's a fucking Roy Moore or whatever there's literally a pastor saying it's like well I mean

Mary was a teenager you know whatever like that like I mean they're literally defending pedophilia now and I mean so I mean there's no limit for that type of shit

I don't think nothing no line they won't cross when it comes to sticking with their side or on their team or whatever and it works right left yeah absolutely for sure and I think

I think that's, you know, you can argue which side is better about it or more hypocritical or whatever. But at the end of the day, it's the viewing it through sides that is the issue rather than viewing it as humans and saying, okay, is this a good thing or a bad thing? And what is this person about? And we've got to vilify the other side. It's a sport. Right. Well, that's one thing with the Nazis that I really have a hard time with. and I know you're expressing that you had a hard time imagining why anybody would be mad about it.

If you do that work and you go, what are these guys about? What's their goal? And they've told us. And it's fucking insane. It's no good. And so at that case, that's where you go, why are you asking me to empathize with them? I have. I did empathize with them.

It was a nightmare. It was a fucking nightmare to put myself in their situation. Yeah. So that's the one I can't wrap my mind. I don't understand the people that like they are, you shouldn't talk shit about Nazis. So I call that pro-Nazis, right? So they're pro-Nazis,

but then they're anti-nealing, and like, they go through this whole thing. No, you stand up. My papal fought for that flag, and I'm like, against who? You know what I mean? The Nazis. What the fuck are you talking about?

Yeah, well, you know, Trey, I saw your bit after the video after Charlottesville, and that's, my girlfriend sent it to me, and I just thought, Amen. Finally. Like, you know, somebody has nailed this on, uh, on the head. And, um, you know, it, it, that's when I discovered you guys and got into that because it was

that this, uh, you just articulated it in a way that cut through the, the bullshit and showed the ridiculousness, uh, of the situation and out there. Yeah, well, I appreciate that, man. I mean, that's, you know, the goal with, uh, the, you know, the goal with, uh, the, those, but that's a good example of what we were talking about in terms of, and again, this is not true for all of them at all. But, like, there's plenty of them where I, you know, in my mind, I genuinely feel like, I don't know how anyone can disagree with this.

You know what I mean? Like, because of what it is that I'm actually saying, but I'm proven wrong. I'm proven otherwise literally every single time. Where do you live? Is it Austin? I lived in Austin for about 12 years, and right now I split time between New York City and Nashville. Okay.

New York City, because of your kid? No, my, my girlfriend lives up in New York City. Well, the reason I was

asking that is you said that's how you discovered Trey and then eventually us. I was sort of hoping it was the bitter southerner

article about us because I know your girlfriend's been featured in there recently and we love that magazine. Are you familiar that back?

Yeah. And the idea of being a better southerner. You were talking a minute about how like you were starting

out doing comedy and you would say like gay people are human beings too and it was controversial somehow or a club

owner and be like hey don't do politics here one thing that in living in New York that I sort of like missed about being a comedian in the South was it was like oh it's harder to push some buttons up here I got to push different if I'm going to push buttons those aren't the buttons anymore right right because people up there are just like

yeah we know yeah we get it we know cool you sit with an accent but in fucking Knoxville you're a goddamn firebrain earlier you were talking about you got to build something and then release it with a joke so you basically broke down comedy when you said that earlier and that's what we do we build tension and then we break it it was harder for me to build

tension i'm wondering if as a songwriter there's any difference well first of all how to texas shape you growing up there and then if there's any difference in the knoxville-nashville culture that like affects you as a songwriter uh well first of all i just want to referring to the new york audience there was an article that i read uh from a vet and it was about the bus and it was about the bubble. People talk about the liberal bubble. And he had grown up in a trailer park and he went through this list of, you know, all the things, family in prison, and the sort of ideals and beliefs that were there and was sort of breaking down this idea that, that, you know, that there is this liberal bubble or that the beliefs shared in the community he grew up in in Texas were, were a monolith? Yeah, but what he said, the point I'm trying to get to is he said, he lives in New York now, and it's not a liberal bubble.

There's ethnicities and nationalities of every kind there. And if somebody calls you an asshole, it's not because you're black or Jewish or Iraqi. It's because you're a fucking asshole. And that's not a bubble. That's massive humanity all jammed into one place where you almost can't afford to have those sort of, feelings about people. Somebody's either a good guy or not. And it's obviously not across the board that way,

but the bubbles are these places where you don't have interaction with other people, other faiths, other ethnicities. But growing up in Texas, I grew up in a suburb, conservative place. I think it's now the home of the Tea Party, the Woodlands, Texas.

Suburb of what? Of Houston? Yeah, okay. And it was, you know, musically, just growing up in Texas, there's a rich tradition of country music, and it's just everywhere, it's in the air. And the songwriters, the history comes out of theirs, was very influential on me. And there's really no place like it in the world as far as the music culture and the support from fans. And, you know, there's more music venues.

And there's people that make their living without having to live. leave Texas and I can't think of really many places. Yeah, we've talked about those guys before. I don't know, not on here, I don't think, but obviously we're huge, just country music fans. Charlie Robinson, you look at his schedule and he's just in Texas all the time. Yeah, like

Jason Bowling and Wade Bowling, Randy Rogers, a lot of those guys that are just like they spend an insane amount, I'm not saying, obviously they do leave Texas, but like a huge portion of what they do is just in Texas or like, I remember Randy Rogers specifically, I remember years ago,

So, like, nobody in, I went to college in Cookville, Tennessee, and really nobody around there knew who Randy Rogers was by me and a couple of my buddies. And I'm a big football fan. And I was watching a Cowboys game one day. And they played a fucking Randy Rogers song in the Cowboys Stadium, like at a kickoff or whatever. And I remember being like, what the fuck? And then I realized that it's like, you know, he's a big fucking deal. Yeah, he's a rock star.

Yeah. And that's when I kind of realized that that was a thing. Yeah, it's absolutely a whole thing. And all those guys tour and have fan bases around, but there's such a community of Texas music fans. And, you know, like Pat Green sold out the Astonome. Right, right. And, I mean, he did well in other places, but, you know,

there was 60,000 people. Yeah, no, that's fucking insane. So there's a, you know, You know, those guys were doing it without record labels. And there's a lot of good things about it. There's some negative aspects to it as well. But anyway, it was a way that there was a community that I could step into and a fan base that was sort of already there.

And you could go play these iconic places. And there were people who were fans of songwriting. And that was really great for me. And so that was just always in my blood. I grew up listening to Kenny Rogers and Willie Nelson and, you know, just all the usual suspects. But it was just everywhere you would go. And so that was influential to me.

You know, the town that I grew up in, it was, you know, affluent, probably 95% white. And I remember when I was a kid, we had a, I don't know, Mondale Reagan mock election in the elementary school. And I was the only kid who voted for Mondale. And so there was always sort of this, you know, it was a conservative place. But they were and my parents were liberal and they sort of instilled that in me. And so we had a couple of incidents when I was growing up. One, there was a gay man named Paul Broussard who was murdered by a bunch of kids in my high school. They went down to the gay area of Houston Montrose and beat him to death.

and then they came back to the school and eventually several of them went to prison but you know I was going to school with people who had been involved in a homicide and were celebrated by some parts of the school. It was not this...

You were in school with those? Yeah, I was a freshman in high school and they were juniors and seniors. Damn. When you say celebrated in parts of the school? I mean it was, you know, there's a lot of people looked at it with shock and horror but there were people that

students or yeah there were students that it was no big deal or it was sort of this you know we know people who it was this very exotic thing of someone oh they went down to Houston and killed somebody and and they didn't

did not dissuade them from hanging out or or celebrating these people and then my junior year, senior year, it was junior year because I was still playing sports. Somebody, you know, posted a bunch of Klan flyers all over our school that came in and posted a bunch of stuff. And I remember I started a unity rally, like a march. I thought

I'm going to bring our town together during this divisive time. So I was 16 or something. You know, got involved in this rally. I think we had like 24 people, you know, marching through the town with our little homemade. signs, but it was just there seemed to be a lack of concern for it. To me, it was shocking and horrifying and something I felt like I needed to be involved in combating, but I

had a hard time sort of building up a lot of rallying a lot of support for that. Did that have an effect on you? Yeah, it did. It did. I mean, it was discouraging. Well, your humor is pretty irreverent. I wonder if it comes. from getting over being disappointed.

I don't know. I think for a long time I've played it safe because of that because I shied away from the battles because I was always outnumbered. And there's two ways you can view that. Some people just lose all fucks and say, I'm going for this and I don't care what anybody thinks. And some people play along and I probably was more in the latter group. but I, you know, I tried to get my thoughts out and beliefs out in a more subtle way.

I think you're being hard on yourself. You're fucking organizing people in the middle of your hometown. Yeah, that's what I was just thinking too. While there's murderers in your math class, I think you're standing up a little bit there. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Well, what about, so the second part of his question, and look, preface this by saying, we're not trying to get you into any whole big shit talking session or nothing like that. but I don't want to conclude.

I don't want to finish this conversation without us talking about Nashville and country music and all of that as it stands today. And you said half the time you live in Nashville now, right? So Drew's question was like, how does that, how does and has that influenced your songwriting as it goes forward, if at all?

But then also I'd like to hear you talk a little bit about just the scene in general, yeah, in Nashville. Yeah, you know, I don't know. that where I live or, you know, spending time in Nashville has never really affected my writing. I mean, I write with a lot of guys in Nashville, so it affects it in that way. But I tend to write with people that I'm a fan of or a friend with anyway, that I, you know, tend to have a common sense, shared sensibility.

And, you know, I don't know. It's, it's, uh, um, I'm always looking around trying to find, either tell my own story and figure out what I'm doing and relate that to other people or observe people wherever I am, whether it's in Crystal Beach, Texas or in New York City. And so a lot of the songs I wrote, I was living in Croatia. And it was, you know, the people, to me, it's just about a space and whether you're tuned, how tuned in you are, as to how they affect your writing. And, you know, the music scene, you know, honestly, I don't pay a ton of attention to it.

I gave up a long time ago on the idea that I was ever going to be a mainstream country artist. You know, I've had some, a few people cut songs and of mine, some mainstream artists. And that's great. and you know I've spent a number of years feeling whether it was in the Texas music scene or in the Nashville music scene or whatever. There's always things that are not my cup of tea and maybe are celebrated more than I think they should be. And there's people that I think are not given the attention and a claim that they should get. but the best way that I've found to address that is to do something worthwhile and you see it with Isbell right now and Stapleton and Sturgeon and Sturgeon and these guys that are you know they're

taking over country music and and there's an audience for that but they do that through quality and they may complain about stuff but it that's not what's moving the needle I don't think It's that they're putting stuff out there that people relate to and connect to. And, you know, there's a lot of stuff that I grew up on that is maybe not great, deep, profound music, but it doesn't all need to be. There's stuff that made me as a teenager or as a young man I could relate to. And, you know, I look at a lot of stuff, you know, the bro-crunchy, realm don't get it it's not my thing it can be repetitive and generic and derivative but there are

millions of people who apparently do and I'm not going to tell them they're all wrong you know I know I know there's things that I listen to that mean the world to me that most people go that's a ridiculous piece of music and and you know I whether it's Jimmy Buffett or the Stattler brothers or Kenny Rogers or I'll fight some of my over with Stadler brothers you know there are things that that I loved and

and there's some purists that would probably argue with me and say that's crap music so on that note a discussion we've had repeatedly basically the whole time we've known each other and I think we've talked about it on here too but I'd love to get your perspective on especially

because you're a little bit older than us we've talked a lot about how so we all agree that like we dug 90s country that was like popular 90s country not all of it you go back to listen to some of it's like Jesus Christ but a lot of it we really really liked

and we were kids then and it's like I also really loved like I'm trying to think of a good example of something that I just adored that just I've went back and it does not fucking hold up like movies or TV shows or something. What about R&B? I remember like I look like I look

back the R&B I liked when I was in middle school and it was like, oh, that was the wrong R&B. Ninety's R&B never missed. I've gone back and listened to the whole fucking thing. It was on point. I tend to agree with Corey on this one. But anyway, there's definitely examples of like, I've went back and watched things or whatever

and thought it's like, wow, okay, nostalgia was really doing a number on me on that one because that is bad. And so the conversation we've had is when it comes to 90s country. We really want to know is Joe Diffy, the greatest artist in the world. Because I'm pretty sure he is. How much of that is pure nostalgia for people like us

who were like kids when it came out and fucking loved it? Or like it was it genuinely fucking better than what is, you know, popular country or bro country or whatever now? Because my opinion is the latter, but, you know, I'm biased. And there were people, you know, I remember what's the Wayland Jennings quote about Garth Brooks, you know. He did for country music, what? Pony house did for finger fucking.

Exactly. You know, I loved Garth books. And, you know, and I loved Wayland Jennings. But, you know, there's whatever area you're at, there's going to be people looking back and going, oh, that doesn't compare with what we had.

And, you know, I think it's just, time will tell. Some stuff will hold up more than others. You know, 30 years from now, what are we going to be listening to? Is it going to be the stuff that's out today? Who knows? but a lot of it has to do with where you are in your life

and that's what it's music is about connecting with people and there's some things that are connected with a 16 year old that aren't going to connect with me and they're not supposed to right you know and that's why parents you know don't get their kids musical interest so you know is Justin Bieber an amazing artist I don't know it's not my thing but there are a lot of people who think he is and time will tell that last time wasn't bad no you know he's got some jams for sure

and, you know, I'm just throwing out some example, but there's a lot of, a lot of folks out there. And I just, I don't feel qualified to say or judge because there's things I can say whether I like it or not, but do I say, is it better? You know, I'll argue that Townsvans, that's a better songwriter than anybody else in the planet. But, you know, there's some people that think Keisha is the greatest one, and they're going to feel just as adamantly about it as I am and on my side.

And, you know, we can fight or we can just enjoy. enjoy the music we enjoy and and let bygones be bygones well as long as we all agree that taylor swips overrated which we have all we don't agree on that i don't know that's a callback joke okay it's not has nothing to do with anything what were you about to say i give her props cori first of all stop fucking shouting at me and second of all i've never said she sucked ever all i've ever said is she's overrated and she is i've given her props here's what happened my wife got in a fight with him, Trey, about Taylor Swift, and then he blamed me for everything my wife said.

Okay. Yes, you did. Well, we can scroll back on the podcast. The first time this came up, we were in, where were we at? We were in that weird. We were in Texas, weren't we? No. We were in Texas, weren't we?

No. You're talking about me and Andy had to, Andy wasn't in Canada. No, when it first came up on the podcast. We're sorry, Hayes. No, I went. We first came on the podcast, we were in Canada. Okay. And you were saying that I had said, like, that there's all these other female artists who are

just as town and they're going to bring. I was like, no. again, Andy said that. I was just there. That is what happened. But you are the one that keeps bringing it up. You brought it up on the... Okay.

All right. Anyway, look, I appreciate being diplomatic and all that, and we're comedians, we don't... I do the same, we do the same shit with comedy a lot of times. Like, people ask us all the time about... Well, it's Foxworthy and Larry the Cable guy. Yeah, those guys, blue-collar guys, whatever. And as far as Jeff Foxworthy go, I mean, every head must bow, every tongue must profess.

That man was a fucking brilliant comedian. But, you know, like the cable guy, not a huge fan of his personally, or not as a person. I don't mean as a person. I mean, of his comedy personally. And the fact that it's 100% a character, you know, he don't talk that way he's from Nebraska, whatever. But I always say, but, you know, I mean, the dude's fucking funny. He got time. He's fucking, yeah.

He's got great delivery. He's a funny fucking guy. and people dig it. And so there's always an aspect of diplomacy to it. But with us, when we started talking about music, like, man, I'll fucking shit on, you know, Florida, Georgia line and Sam Hunt or whatever those people all fucking day. Because, like, again, I hear what you're saying.

There's a lot of these people that like them, and their opinion is valid when it comes to just taste in art. Because when you have that same conversation, you know, like politically, and it's like, yeah, well, people argue just as strongly that, you know, Nazis are. kind of okay or whatever and I'm like yeah well fuck those people stupid goddamn opinions it's the same people isn't it yeah right but when you know we just blame the hot ride on Florida Georgia line we've reached a new level it's at least a little bit their fault I think I think they're both symptoms of the same stupidity right I just honestly I just don't I don't listen to the radio that much anymore and well now you can't

it's fucking terrible and uh So, you know, I mean, I'm aware of certain people, but, you know, I listen to very little of it. And in this day and age, you can kind of control what you listen to through, you know, the digital outlets and stuff. And so, you know, it used to be, I grew up, you had your radio stations, and whatever was on there, that's what you got. Right.

And, but I don't have to do that anymore. Right. So I'm kind of out of touch as far as it goes, honestly. they saw like I know the names you're throwing around but I couldn't tell you a single song right by the ever been done I've only ever hate listen to them to be honest with you like I turn it on just like

oh here's something I'm gonna hate and then I just sit there and hate it for a while and turn it off and you know that ain't no way to be but you always know yeah but you know what you like a perfect example that for me is Andy loves the band vampire weekend and I acknowledge that a lot of people who know a lot about music love them but they've just I've always hated them and there'll be

times where we're like in the car something and about 35 seconds into the song I'll be Like, what the fuck is this? Turn this off and she'll be like, vampire week. And so even though I didn't know that's what it was, you know what you like and what you don't like. Yeah, like no one's ever going to play for me a Florida Georgia line song and trick me and be like, God damn, this is a jam. Yeah, yeah.

That's Florida Georgia Line. Oh, damn it. Kind of like, Chad. Damn you, Chad. Kind of like no one's going to send you a Richard Spencer speech and be like, oh, you know, he had some good points. Who is that? Right. Well, I was also curious, aside from like the shit talking or whatever.

Are you writing music in New York? Is that different? Just as an experience as a songwriter. Yeah, I mean, the difference for me is that I'm in a much smaller space. That makes sense to me. I like to write looking out of window. Well, I like to have a designated space and not have distractions. So for me, what I used to do is I'd go get the cheapest hotel room I could find

and hole up for a few days. and just, you know, stare in the mirror and chain smoke and have my guitar and, you know, try and get at the bottom of it. And I'm, you know, pretty ADD. And so anything, any distraction that can come my way, I'll, you know, I'll chase it down. So, you know, New York's not the best for me personally as far as writing, but I like to have a little more room and a few less distractions. I got three great great jokes out of three years in New York. They were all angry. Yeah.

Yeah, because I was just tense all the fucking time. But I mean, I'm from a really tiny town. I'm not even from a suburb. Where you from? It's called Sunbright, Tennessee, population 600. We named it after the sun. We're real proud. Yeah, no, all three of us are from similarly sized, very, very small rural southern towns.

Salina, Tennessee, Sunbright, and Chickamauga, Georgia. but I was wondering also I mean outside of country both the good and the bad kinds like what other kind of shit are you into musically like right now as far as other genres or whatever because another thing that surprises people a lot

is the fact that like our generation of Southerners at least like we're big time into rap music and you know so we still are like we fucking love rap music that's one of the things surprises people in like San Francisco or whatever is that like rap is popular in the South even though you know some of the best fucking rap ever has been made in the South or whatever but like what other kinds of I we listen to basically all kinds of genres we just there's artists we like and artists we don't yeah you that way or you pretty much stick to you know I'm I can appreciate a lot of things I I was always drawn to the guys who had sort or girls with like a skill set simile to mine because I think the odds I always viewed it as the the odds of me being able to do this

were so astronomical with my talent level and voice, which I perceived as fairly low in some ways. And so I was like drawn to the people who did something that I was maybe capable of doing a similar variation of that. And so I listened, I just, I listened to singer-songwriter, so that was my, that was my jam that was the thing um and i you know i grew up on classic rock on classic country um and uh you know musical theater that was a big uh jam for me my mom was a theater i was a theater and uh i met my wife at the theater did you yeah well i used to have uh um my mom's i have these theater posters all over the the cabin that I stayed in down on the beach for a long time and I would bring somebody back

to the house and that was the only artwork on the walls and they definitely set a certain vibe but yeah I like hip hop and and I find it fascinating I think that's the I think the best writers are there and and it's the most skilled yeah version of things right now and and and I listen but my only sort of entry to it is, you know, my Uber rides. Every time I'm in an Uber, somebody's playing and jamming their music, and they seem to be, people have sort of stopped caring about the passenger, and they just want to rock out as they're driving. Yeah. But at least to a lot of interesting conversations, because the majority of it is hip-hop and, you know, the flow these guys have and what they're writing about, and it's relevant in a way that almost no other genre is. Sure.

And every song is, well, they're not all about something. But even when they're just sort of benign, it's the skill level involved in the production and actual rapping is incredible. I watched that movie. It's a remedy of 8 Mile on Hustle and Flow. It's a paddy cakes, I think it was. But the British rapper? No, it's about a big white girl. I thought she was British.

My wife told me about it, but that's the one. No, it's a movie. Have you ever seen Hustle & Flow? Yeah, yeah. I know what Pettigakes is. I just happened to think that the girl was... Yeah, no, it's... Bridget Everett plays her mom, the comedian Bridget Everett.

Okay. Yeah, she's great in it. And I can't even remember where they are. But it's that same story of this girl who wants to be a rapper, and they have the rap battles, which I find fascinating. I get so excited about those. When you watch it or when they come up and they go in the studio and you watch the beats come down,

and all of a sudden, like, this stuff comes alive. It's incredible. When Hayes just said, I get so excited. excited about it. He did the white guy like fistpup. Yeah. And on the one hand, you didn't look cool. But on the other hand, because you're a fucking Texas singer-songwriter talking about rap battles, you did look cool. This is a new territory for me. Hell yeah. Well, look, we're about to let you go. We're coming up on the hour mark. But, you know, thank you for this. And before we do go, what's coming up for you, man? Tell us what you got going

on. What's on the horizon? Well, short term, or near term, I'm doing, uh, you know, I'm going back to Texas this weekend for a show at the Paramount Theater in Austin, post- Thanksgiving Day show. And Shelby Lynn and Allison Moore are going to play it with me. And then I'll be in Dallas at the Kessler Theater the day after that. And it just finishing up the year through the Midwest and then go over to the UK for a bit. And then hoping to record a record in the spring. I don't have something to be out to later.

in 2018. So that's the plan. You're not going to put it out on April 8th? No, I don't think we're going to meet the timeline. But I'll never live through April 8th again without thinking of you, Trey. Well, I can't tell you how much that means to him. It does a lot every day. Yep.

Well, awesome. I look, I don't I speak for all three of us when I say we're very much so looking forward to that coming out because we're big fans of yours and we really appreciate you joining us. Yeah, well, thank you guys. I'm fans, y'alls, and I'm happy for your success. It's really cool to watch. And, yeah, a few years ago, we probably would have been doing this in the days in. Yeah.

Well, a few years ago, you wouldn't have agreed to come on our podcast. That's right. All right, well, thank you. Hay's Carl, everybody. We'll see you next time. Skew! Thank you all for listening to The Well-Red Show. We'd love to stick around longer, but we got to go.

Tune in next week if you got nothing to do Thank you God bless you good night and skill