wellRED podcast - #97 - Hanging in Nashville W/ Elizabeth Cook and Tyler Mahan Coe!

Episode Date: December 26, 2018

This week we sit down in Nashville with one of todays best country music singer/songwriters, Elizabeth Cook AND one of today's best country music historians, Tyler Mahan Coe! We talk country music, comedy, cultural appropriation and more!Check out Tyler's insanely popular podcasts Your Favorite Band Sucks and Cocaine And RhinestonesGo to elizabeth-cook.com for tour dates and what not!wellredcomedy.comsmokeyboysgrilling.comcarvevodka.com

And we thank them for sponsoring the show. Well, no, I'll just go ahead. I mean, look, I'm money dumb. Y'all know that. I've been money dumb ever, since ever, my whole life. And the modern world makes it even harder to not be money dumb, in my opinion, because you used to, you, like, had to write down everything you spent or you wouldn't know nothing. But now you got apps and stuff on your phone.

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Do you even know? Do you know how much you spend on takeout or delivery? Getting a paid chauffeur for your chicken low mane? Because that's a thing that we do in this society. Do you know how much you spend on that? It's probably more than you think. But now there's an app designed to help you manage your money better, and it's called Rocket Money.

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What's up everybody? It's your boy the show. Merry Christmas, happy holidays, all that good stuff. I hope yours was fantastic. I know mine was. We had a blast. I ate too much. I hung out with my knees.

Rested, which is what I needed after this last. weekend in Nashville at Zanies. My good Lord. It was, we've had some wild weekends, but I don't know. I don't know if we can top that one, man. That was crazy. Everybody came out, all our boys, some great friends

of ours. It was, it was great. So, well-readcom, W-E-L-R-E-D, Comedy.com, spelled just like the podcast. That's where you can find tickets to all our shows. We just wrapped up the 2018 tour. 2019. We'll start back on February 9th in San Francisco, California.

You can go to well-read comedy.com and check out all the dates. Subscribe to our newsletters you'll know where we're going to be before anyone else does. Also, you can grab great merch, grab our book, The Liberal Redneck Manifesto, Dragon Dixie out of the dark. Yada, yada, yada. This portion of the podcast is always brought to you by

Smokey Boysgrilling.com. Go to Smokey Boysgrilling.com and get all the rubs for all you meets and send them a letter, tell them the Cho sent you. Also, carvevodka.com. Go to carvevodka.com. See what all the fuss is about with Jacksonville's first and only craft vodka distillery. You want to get drunk like the show?

I know you do. Go to carvevodka.com and carve your own path, baby. This podcast is a G.D. Dozy. Matter of fact, I was going to break it up into two episodes, but it was just such a good free-flowing conversation that there was, it didn't seem right. There wasn't a spot to do it. This podcast is with two of the most talented people out there, two of the most hardest people working. in country music, Elizabeth Cook, singer-songwriter extraordinaire, and Tyler Mayhan, co-host of, in my opinion, just the best podcast out there, Cocaine and Rhinestones.

Also, your band sucks, another fantastic podcast. Tyler is great. He works his ass off. He is a true historian of country music, and that's why we were so excited to sit down and talk to him and a great country musician herself, Elizabeth Cook, in our condo in Nashville, Tennessee. We talked about everything from country music in terms of, you know, decades, philosophy, parallels between that and comedy. It was just a fucking blast. I know you're going to enjoy it. So, also, you know, go to Elizabeth dashcook.com. Check her out when you can. I've seen her a couple

times. And it's, she's just such a delight. She's one of the best songwriters out there. And she has a fantastic voice. Go subscribe to your band sucks. And in my opinion, the best podcast on the in it cocaine and rhinestones. The second season will be dropping later this year. Tyler's been working very hard on it. And you need to catch up before we start season two. It's unfucking believable. Honestly, if you like country music, it's going to be your favorite.

I think even if you don't like country music, you're going to come out of it loving country music or at least appreciating country music a little bit more. So enjoy this podcast with Elizabeth Cook and Tyler Mayhan Co. And we will see you next. week and we'll see you in 2019 on the well-read comedy tour. Thank you guys for making 2018, one of the best years of my life. Love you so much and ski-you- Well, well.

All right, well, here we are. The Comedy Condo is Zanies in Nashville, one of our favorite clubs and cities and spots and all that. And here with two very exciting guests we've lined up, y'all have lined up on how you swung this, Corey or group. I'm glad you did. I just bother the fuck out of people on Twitter.

And sometimes they're like, that's one way to do it. Anyway, we got the lovely Elizabeth Cook and Mr. Tyler Mayhan Co. Thank you guys very much for being here. Thank you for having me. Yeah.

I love what you're done with the place. I know. We were just talking about all the artwork that Zanis has got. There's literally nothing on any of the walls in this condo. But I was saying, like, comedy condo, I get it.

It would all get. It'd get dicks. drawn on it and like I think you guys should just go ahead and draw a dick on it. Let's get this party started. I'm sure that's been done too. If I can probably have to repaint this place.

It looks like it's been repainted. It's nice as far as these things go. You're already not talking into the mic. You just talked into your cup. Well, whatever. We've been to this for two years now and Trace Hill just can't seem to. I also maintain that like the level of mic

discipline we apparently require should not be necessary. Like this. It doesn't anymore. You know what I mean? You really just sound, I've changed the levels and we've got to do my kids. When you do that, you do sound fine. But I'm never going to stop him from doing that.

But yeah, the idea that like this, see what I'm doing right? That bad is like completely unacceptable. Have you ever listened to podcasts? Yeah. They all sound bad. Right, yeah. Well, ours in particular. Maybe you're a headset, man, like Garth Brooks.

You just need a headset. I guess I do. I don't know. Something. But anyway, I'm just, I don't know. I'd be a little bit more like Garth Brooks. Yeah. Let's talk about Garth Brooks.

that's a good one to start with. Go ahead, bud. Well, all right, so we have given him credit, maybe blame is the right way for it, for the current state of country music, and that's quite a statement I've made. Allow me to defend myself real quick, and I'm not shitting on Garth by any means.

We love him. But I feel like the industry had no idea how successful they could be crossing over until he showed him, and now it's all they want to do. Arena country. which really there was arena country in the cell. I mean, Willie Nelson and that thing.

That's what people forget about Outlaw is it was actually one of the most successful periods commercially of country music. There's a reason why everyone knows who Waylon Jennings did. So Stadium country predated Garth really, but I think we didn't have like the media funnels that there are now. And the CD component. The whole recording industry had really figured out what the hell it was doing by the time Garth Brooks came along. I mean, it was all, the lifespan of the recording industry, America is just a matter of decades. We're talking less than 100 years.

This was an industry that existed, you know. So it was still real new in the outlawed days. It was real loose. They were figuring out who gets to make the decisions about what the album sounds like. You know, that's the kind of argument they were having. By the time Garth comes along, this is the Ford factory of that.

He co-opted cowboy rodeo culture on the back of Chris Ledoux. He did do that. I think. George Shrate did a lot of what Garth Brooks takes the heat for in my opinion. I guess because George Strait just kind of stands there and looks sexy and Garth kind of runs around

like they tied up his balls like a bucket ball. But you are right. For a lot of people Garth Brooks was coming online with oh, there's a lot of money over there. Right. You know. And this may sound kind of like a boring accounting fact,

but that also coincided with the time that the profit margin between producing a CD and selling a CD that profit margin was here. And then CDs, those little plastic disc were so cheap to make. So the profit margin on every CD they sold just went womp. So it just became a money grab. It became a money grab.

And hey, I got a record deal off that shit. I don't know. I don't complain it. I have a house because of that shit. There it is. They were looking for places to bury the money. They gave me a record deal. Deservably so.

Well, Tyler touched on something with that. I mean, it's been brought up. million times across all genres, but like, it seems like back in the day, a lot of the stuff that was like huge was also, you know, good. Like, and like stood the test at the time. Don't get me wrong.

I know there was a ton of like detritus too, just total shit that nobody remembers for good reason. But like a lot of the biggest acts, again, across genres back then, are ones that hold. up and where like from your perspectives has that been as big of a shift as it seems like it has been and also like where did that come from do you think that Tyler do you think that the sort of way in which songs got written like it became more by committee that that songwriting got

super organized songwriting itself became like a sub industry so if you got a publishing deal which I also had to show him how desperate they were um you know know, you were expected to come in at 10 o'clock with Clint and Trent, and sorry if anybody here's saying Clint or Trent. Just getting to know y'all. But, you know, and sit around and we'd get a row fax. It's like, Martina needs a power ballad. I would tell everybody that was cutting, what they were looking for, who was producing,

and then we were to go in rooms with, like, Bubba's and write these songs. Like, it was very manipulative. It wasn't, like, earnest. It was more about having touched with. someone to be associated with them. It was like co-rights are a big thing. That's one of the things that happened for sure. And you know another, okay, so Clinton signed in 96, good old Bill Clinton, he did

sign, he did deregulate the communications companies. That's another thing. So then they were able to come in, they were able to come in and buy up radio stations in every market, like two companies, Clear Channel and was it Westwood One, I think. They would go into a city, buy all the radio stations and then like deliberately go after a certain demographic. So 30-year-old women are going to listen to this. 20-year-old guys are going to listen to this channel.

And then they would sell advertising based on that. So it all became advertising-driven. And I was even told that if your song doesn't segue nicely between like two Toyota truck commercials, basically they wanted white noise. They wanted something that made nobody change the channel between ads. So the corporate ties at all. I just showed up with Liz this time.

Just ask her, I should tell you. I'm sorry. I don't have to say it. You're right. I'm sorry. What are you sorry about? Well, because I feel like I'm just spouting off.

You should. No, you're not. And I actually, I'm glad you said that because I've had this question for a while, which is that like I would read, I've got, I had some buddies in Nashville who were studio musicians and they got to be friends with some of the writers and yada yada. And I would read these stories of these old publishing houses stuff where like you had some dudes like, yeah, you go in, you nine to five, you sit there, you write songs. And I'm thinking, and at first I'm like, whatever.

And then, you know, I'm a couple. comedian. I've been doing it for 15 years. That is certainly not my process. I know that it can work for some people. I say that to say this. I know that there's been great songs written next to a briefcase. But I've never heard that here's one about a girl. I wrote this. One day I was inspired sitting in a cubicle. Well, you'd be amazed at how many stories there are like that. I'm certain. I'm certain of it. I'm absolutely certain of it. But it's hard for that's, to me, is indignant how talented those fuckers are. One of the things that changes is just motivation. You know, it's not about what you do always.

Sometimes it's about why you did it. And sometimes it comes through and it really matters. I think that's what changes. For a genre that's so hung up on tradition, you know, and we got to keep it sounding the same. It's got to sound the same. The city and the industry that was making this really lost sight of the way that it got to be the thing that was so successful that everyone loved.

For instance, the way that recording sessions take place, everyone being in the same room and playing a song together and they know that they've got to get it right in the first three times or else they're going to move on to the next song and the dude in there who hires the people to come in next time is going to be real fucking mad. They didn't get that song done. There's a big difference in music that's made that way

versus you got scheduled. You come in. They put you in a booth by yourself and you're listening to tracks that were recorded by other people on other days. You've never met these people. No idea what they were feeling when they played this stuff. you know. And you are in this instance a guitar player.

Anything. Yeah, yeah. You could be a guitar player. I mean, you could be a... What I think it really comes into it is when we start talking about how we're recording the vocals that are going to be on an album. I don't think we can reasonably expect a singer to come in there and deliver in a closet what they could deliver if they were in a room with the best musicians in this city who are actually playing on their song, but they're never fucking met them. Clay, you know, a few good records in the closet, but why did it,

why did they have to, it almost seems to me like it would be more efficient to, to have everybody together at one time and do it that way, like in the first place. That only, in addition to what you said about how

the end product would be better, but it also seems like, like what's the problem with, why did they ever go away from that? They like to isolate and hyper-control the tones. And like when everybody's in the room together, there's bleed, in a vocal booth.

You know, somebody's hitting a snare. Even if it's 50 feet away, there's going to be a little bleed. And so to isolate everyone, hyper control the sounds and the balance of it. But that's not how we did it here.

And that's why everyone came here. And then everyone kept coming here and we started doing it like they did it everywhere else. And that's what happened. Wow. No shit. Yeah. That's fucking every city that's ever had a culture.

That was great. You know what I mean? really speaks to that like that. I think that just bigger idea of sort of the, the globalization and dissipation of individuality and as much as I like, sometimes like worry about nationalism. And I think that, you know, Mark Twain says you shouldn't be so, we shouldn't be so provincial, you know, that it's not evolved to be provincial. But at the same time, yeah, losing like cultural identity, too. It's also about the stamp of what's official. Like, this is the official way that this is done. It's not just, we're not just letting things happen.

Like, let the market control itself or whatever people say, you know. That's not happening here. Well, I have a question about that, though. I mean, specifically to the market, you know, you go to a show. The one that keeps popping in my mind right now is Sergio Simpson, but I know there's all kinds of reasons that the industry's not going to, you know, he's told them to go fuck themselves too many times. But my question, example aside, whoever it is, you go to a show and you see all these people there and they've got to, the t-shirt and they're buying the tickets and they got all the albums. Is it a question of real estate?

What I'm getting at is there are artists who aren't doing it that way. Why don't they play them on the radio once they become successful and commercially viable and they do realize they could sell some ads? I mean, there are a lot of different answers that you could give for the way it's been the past 10, 15 years. I think the only answer that matters right now is because radio doesn't matter anymore. Who gives a shit? They're not trying to get on the radio now.

It doesn't matter. Who cares? So how then, I mean, that makes sense to me. It's still really important if you're going to play a certain type of game on a certain level. But there are people who are existing outside that system who don't have to worry about it. And those are honestly the only people whose careers I'm interested in paying attention to because I think they're the ones who are going to survive like Whalen Jennings and Willie Nelson did. And yeah, and talking about the fading out of culture, I think the culture of radio shifted where they care about the money grab, the greed, the selling advertising, as opposed to caring about music.

You used to listen to a DJ that was. like, I'm going to play this song eight times in a row because I just got this and I'm super, like, you couldn't really, you can't really like relate to anyone's passion anymore because it's all about selling ads. It's all about the money. That's all they care about. But how is Florida Georgia lines so big? And there's two ways to ask that. They're safe. They're safe. They're going to stay on message. But I mean specifically if radio's dying, where are they getting fans from? Radio is still huge. I mean, that's the default option. I'm saying to people who are coming up now, they're playing long game.

They're not playing. Tyler's a visionary. But yeah, I think that still, like, there's like, you know, a, you know, the reality is I hosted a mainstream country festival a few weeks back. It was so crushing. But I introduced people that I did not know and had never heard of before that day. They played to a field of thousands of people who sang along with their song that I had also never heard in my life. And I felt, I felt alone. The thing now is there's an audio.

for everything. You know, that's the default thing, and they're going to have the default option, and it's going to be very big. And you can try to break into that if you want to, if that's your goal or whatever. But if you really just want to survive by creating, you can easily do that without ever playing a single one of these games. You don't have to ever try to get a radio station to play your song. It doesn't matter. Well, that's interesting. There's a very obvious parallel in what we do, and we have done now both. I think the beginning of your career, Trey, is absolutely outside of the norm and in the new field like the internet but inside our industry a lot of people at least at first it was like internet comedian was a bad word what that meant was

you weren't good enough to do it quote unquote the right way now as the years of the record there's some validity to that in a lot of cases uh well because you because you can get fans by having doing it the right way the internet just you know well the right way is still getting good right I don't mean that. I'm talking about in terms of playing JFL, then getting a network deal. Yes, the industry giving you the juice. Whereas now you can use the internet to make your own. Yeah, God bless it.

I mean, and social media organizes that and the way you reach people. Well, the way I feel out of their hands. Is it like when TV took off, there was a bunch of old radio heads going, what the fuck is this new age bullshit. You know what I mean? And then the internet is the new that. It's just people are going on, well, we made it in TV. It's like, all right, well, now the internet is.

the TV. It's what we fucking watch now. I don't know what to tell you. That's right. One that blows my mind. Go ahead. I actually feel like I was going to bring up TV, not stand up so much, but like TV specifically. I've been, as you guys have been talking about this, I've been over here thinking about, I actually think for weirdly, it's went in the opposite direction with TV. TV's great now. Like it like it started out from the beginning super like like whitewash isn't the right word but like you know sugar. They tried to put radio on the TV and all that type of like you know that appealed to everybody or whatever because there was three channels and all this stuff. And that's how it like was and stayed that way and forever.

But like in the past, you know, 15 or so years, maybe 20 years, TV is like went the opposite direction. It's gotten way fucking better, in my opinion. And in TV, a lot of times now, the stuff that's huge is the stuff that's good, actually, like fucking stranger things or Game of Thrones or whatever. TV also got to watch the music industry completely fuck up integrating the internet and sit back and do it the right way. Like streaming has been amazing for even network television channels. Spotify is to music as Netflix, is to TV. I mean, I think that just like, it's, I can go just search anything, look up, I'm constantly using it for work, researching, checking people out, I find things I love, I put it on a channel while I mop the floors, whatever, you know, it's like, it's, yeah, it's changed the game, and it's great because then I think that it's, it's a more altruistic connection to the audience.

Well, there's still, you know, the old guard, the big networks and old studios and stuff, they still have very much had to go through this whole process of recalibrating, how. how they judge the value of a TV show and stuff because the old like Nielsen ratings and that type of stuff is absolutely insane insanely outmoded now like it just doesn't matter like it used to anymore like dude like fucking Roseanne man every episode of Roseanne had like 40 million people watching it and like that's just literally not possible anymore in that way but like there's still shows that are cultural phenomenons and that type of thing and they're hugely popular but they've had to recalibrate how they judge all that or how they, you know, quantify it all. But, like, I do feel like they're, you know, figuring it out.

But in music, though, it still seems to me like it's still a steady progression in the, you know, from my perspective, negative direction. Like, there's a lot of great acts out there that, like, I know and fuck with that are awesome that exist outside the mainstream, but still, like, the, like, biggest stuff though for the most part it's you know the same shit and seems to be getting worse to me

well I could I could you know propose a theory about that maybe and without and possibly touching the third row here but I would just say that you know country music is traditionally the voice for rural America rural America is

increasingly less educated less cultured they feel like shit they eat like shit take a lot of pills you know I think so I think that the place where there's this massive population super spread out they have one radio station they're going to listen to in their town they're going to play 25 dudes and that's where it's at and so those are who they that's their cultural outlet that's there are a lot one of the things I didn't talk about in I made an episode on Loretta Lynn's

song the pill I believe I took this part out but one of the things that I read about was the fact that that song being on the radio was actually the first time that many women found out that birth control pills existed. Yeah. You know, like, because this wasn't getting to them where they were out there, where it was just like, you have one newspaper and whatever that guy thinks is right is the truth, you know? And we're still just coming out of that. That was not a very long time. the articles recently about, you know, the, like, how many women were in the, in the top 25 or whatever last month?

Zero. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, in country music. Like, it's just like, so Rolling Stones writing about it and there's a lot of writing about it. But, you know, too, the, sorry, I'm sitting in a house full of mills, but it's like the patriarchy. You can't have no wildmouth women running around on the radio, you know, like getting their

women all worked up. Like, I swear, I feel like that. You know, that goes on. It's so funny watching people make decisions as if the Internet does not exist and citizens of the United States can communicate with each other through it. It's like, you know we can talk to each other, right? I mean, having a song banned from country radio as a woman, and I did. I had a song in 2008 band from country radio.

Which one was it? It was called balls to be a woman. I can't say balls. You can't say balls on the opera. And even though like a guy before me can go on and say about, you know, my baby, he likes to and rhyme it with truck but then he goes fish or something like really genius like that anyway i could not sing um i'm glad you recognize that genius yeah it's that bobby braddick song i don't know it's probably there's an old bobby braddick song that's basically that from a long

time ago he's got a strange beautiful brain but yeah i bet it was a binder he wrote he stopped loving her today he can do whatever the fuck he wants but um you know it's it's been it's been wild yeah you mentioned on that episode the pill which was very illuminating to me like you went through all the songs that have been banned from country music. No. All the ones by guys. That's something you can sit down and do. And you landed on, at one point you were talking about Indian Outlaw by Tim McGraw.

And that really started a love affair amongst the three of us with how ridiculous that goddamn song is. It's crazy. One of our most popular episodes was breaking down that song. Yeah. Some of our fans, our country music fans, obviously, but a lot of them, they'd forgotten about it, or never heard it because it was like before their time or after it or whatever it's insane even the year that it was done that it got done well when you're wanting to explain to someone

how casual just extreme racism used to be and that no one really saw a problem with it just play them that song and tell them when it came out yeah because i i never heard anyone say a thing about it when it came out no one came but help help me help me for a second because it's like, okay, so it's racist because it lists the tribes? No. Because he like rhymes like, Chiquot and out of his Tom Tom.

I think it says, because he says, I'm an Indian outlaw and then a bunch of shit. My baby, she's a Chikawa. I mean, I fucking hate the song. Don't get me wrong, but can you not say that? Can you not say that? He just names off all these like, stereotypical, like, beating on my Tom Tom.

The things that people think they know about Indians, like, you know, my baby and my T. Hey, my papal, he's a fucking chief. Okay. So if it would have been a more informed. Which doesn't sound very outlawed to me, by the way. Like, if you're going. It's dumb as hell.

I mean, don't get me wrong. Dumb as hell. But I'm really, this is something I've been grabbed. Let's pull up the lyrics. That it's racist because it's like trying to purposely disparage Indians or Native Americans. I'm arguing, my feeling on it is you are saying I'm an Indian outlaw and here's the reasons why. And when all the reasons why are bullshit.

stereotypes? That's the thing. But then what are stereotypes? I think Tim McGraw is a good dude and I guarantee there's no way that he thought everybody was like whatever. Sometimes stereotypes are just like cultural accuracy as well. I mean, they do have tomtoms. I mean, they didn't make that fucking off. You know?

Yeah, but okay, like this tribe might have had tomtoms. But like that's kind of what I'm saying. So you can't say it because it didn't represent all the tribe. You couldn't come up with details that about being an Indian outlaw that represented all the tribes. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that you can't say I'm an Indian outlaw. You can, but I would call it racist if you do. You can't say I'm an Indian outlaw and then just list all the 10 things you think you know about Indians and say,

and this is what makes me chock-taught. Like, wigwam? You can. You can't. Oh, is it something or is it the thing? See what I'm saying? Yeah. And it's not that you have to know not to be a racist.

You don't have to know not to be a racist. But I just don't know why that may. I want to understand. I'm not saying that it's wrong to a-hold up. That song was written to this. Hold up. Can I just... Indian stereotype bingo.

The lyrics is that you are. Okay. And so it's wrong to stereotype. I think we can safely say this song is objectifying, objectifying the American Indian people. Because the last verse is they all gather around my teepee late at night trying to catch a peek at me. In nothing but my Buffalo briefs. I got them standing in line. I mean, it's fucking funny.

I mean, but this is. I think this is where I could get behind it because Indian people have suffered and that's where it's like, okay, this isn't okay. Like, we really don't need to make fun of. Well, that's what I'm... We took, we fucking, like, stole this land. Oh, I see what you mean.

We were, or I wasn't trying to say that it's wrong to say Indian people had wigwam. I was saying it's wrong. So here's what I don't. It's long to make light of this. I don't... Okay, okay. I don't like this song for the same reason

that I don't like the song Redneck Woman by Gretchen Wilson. And it's because of this. You can find me in my wigwam. I'll be beaten on my tom-tom. Pull out the pipe and smoke you some. Hey, and pass it around. And this is like, this is what my life is like.

I wish that I had, like, I would love to. Have you ever been on that reservation? Yeah, I played them. Yeah. There are awful places. Yeah. I don't know what. I would not want to hear this song on the radio, I think.

The only difference I would say between it and redneck woman, though, is, I agree with you that redneck woman does not at all what it's like to be a redneck woman, but I do think Gretchen Wilson knew that and was just like, oh, I'm catching in. But as a redneck woman, I was like, look, yeah, I'm on a four-willer. It made me happy as fuck, and I am that.

My sister, I love that. Indian's happy, though. Did it? Did it not? I don't think so. Did it not? No, I mean, I... That song came out.

All the girls in my hometown, that was their mother fucking anthem, dude. Like, it was not... Right, so I just think... I think those were all like, well, not the... We have to be careful. This is why we're snowflake.

You know, it's like not really truly just autopilot going on. But there's a difference between like, you can't do it. That's sexist. Again, it's a white dude doing a like Indian song. Well, he's Indian. By the way, if he did this 40 years ago, for sure would have had red paint all over his face while he was dancing around the stage. That's also a thing that we should. Objectively like a novelty song where again he just lists off all these like different.

And that's not okay. timing in, I'm like, I mean, I'm really, really trying to like. Imagine me making a song saying,

you know, I'm a ghetto black dude. Yeah. All I do is sack my pants and sell drugs. But I'm not, and he's not. He's not Indian.

Tim McGraths not Indian. Wait, the whole time, he didn't write the song for sure. I know that for a fact. I thought that he was like, like kind of maybe some, well,

that does change some things a little for me. I mean, I wouldn't think he would be set. Okay, if he's singing it and he's not fucking part outlaw, I have a huge problem. He ain't no outlaw.

I mean Indian outlaw. I just always, I guess, assumed that he was Indian in the way that, like, everybody I went to high school with was Indian, which is to say, you know, like, I'm 164th Cherokee, you know. Yeah, one of my favorite white people joke is what do you, what do you call 16 southern white people in the same room together? He, in all-blooded Cherokee. In acknowledgement of his grandfather's Italian heritage. What? What? That is amazing.

It couldn't have been worse. It couldn't be more hilariously opposite. There's no Indian in there. There's no Indian. I would think if Italians worth mentioning that that was, he got an award for being in Italian. What is Tim McGrath's lineage? This is pretty great.

But I think what Tyler's saying is, when I asked about it, he said he was Italian. So that's the thing. No, he's getting awards for being Italian. Italians are like, yeah, you're doing it, right? He has no American Indian. That's how we like it. Tim McGrath has no American Indian in him.

That's what I'm trying to confirm. He's Italian. He has no American Indian. Since we're not 23 and me, does it change it for you if he's not at all? If he's not. At all? Yeah, it does. Then that's fucking, yeah.

Then he's co-opting a culture. My whole time, I thought he was not. And that's where all my arguments are coming down. I thought he was Oklahoma, maybe part like, I get that. I was, you know, I thought he was part. I really did think that he was part. That makes a colossal difference because I'm like Drew.

I just always assumed that he just wasn't at all. Like, listening to that under the assumption that he actually is, you know, that he's part Native American. I totally thought that he was part Native American. I did. I did. It's still trivializing stereotypical. This goes back to for, I mean, this goes back to the invisibility of songwriters,

career songwriter specifically, which is a huge problem right now, that streaming is bringing to country music. Yeah, like no one, like people see that song and like, oh, he must be what he's saying he is because he's using the words I am here and then saying a bunch of other stuff. Right. Post Malone, there was a big beef on Post Malone recently. I think the Washington Post or somebody wrote about like total farce post Malone. I saw someone that was saying some really mean stuff about him. I don't know anything about him or no way. He used to try to be country. His goal was to be a country musician. Yeah, he's from Dallas, and he started out doing country stuff. On the internet.

There's a lot of crossover, man. It's not like the internet's completely, you know, made. It's not like everybody who came up on the internet's great. And is really co-opting. Like, I don't know. I believe in, like, the bigger picture of physics in that we're all sort of these floating bodies of electricity that transcend different periods of time. And then so it was like, can I tap into?

Maybe I was like a, you know, freaking, whatever Irish princess or something shit. I sincerely think people can tap into whatever the hell they want. And I do think that the whole snowflake thing, sometimes people completely overreact. Indian outlaw is not the hill I would die on. Me neither. I'm sorry, Tyler. No, no. I think you were making an assumption that a lot of people make when they hear that song.

That was perfect. Well, I'm not trying to be devil's advocate. kid, this is something I just personally like, like, okay, so you can't dress up as something else on Halloween that you are not. Like, well, just not with the face paint. Yeah, what I mean? Like,

well, also, if I dress up like Dracula, I like fucking up real vampires. But he's dead. But he's, but he's like a culture. I'm doing the teeth and I'm doing the pill. I think historically humans haven't been very kind to vampires. It's one world. We're coexisting. We're all

everything. I think I should be able to to wear anything and I don't know. But my issue with that... I think that we're barking up things that need to be addressed in the injustices. I think we're going about it a wrong fucking way. Well, nobody can disagree with that. I don't think because when you've got people who, like,

you know, are starving and then you're like, don't wear that outfit. It's like, where the fuck are our real priorities? I agree with that. But I will say with Native Americans specifically, and this is weird to me across the board, museums, movies, naming your sports team that. It's not like that's the worst thing

in the world that you can do to the people. It's obviously not. But we act like they're dead. That's what's weird about it. The Spartans are dead. We name the team Spartans. You know what I'm saying? Like the Trojans are dead.

We name the team Trojans. And we put them in a museum. And then we put Native Americans in a museum as if they're dead. And that's kind of fucking weird. Well, Florida State, like, okay, FSU, the Seminoles. They have like a Seminole Indian on horseback, like, ride across the football. They're like, they're like a notable example because, like, the Seminole nation is like fully endorsed. their whole thing and they also

I think they have like scholarships and stuff for like kids on reservations and stuff like they that's kind of an out I don't know how much they had a song that it's a little bit really did a lot for them yes they did so we have a story about that that I think you'll enjoy

there's a he's gonna bust into it can we tell that story yeah why not fuck it oh we don't there's one part we won't tell yeah that's kind of the whole deal for me but yeah but yeah no no no go We're all adults here. That was arguably the best part.

We'll tell you all the whole story when we're off the mic. You can finish it later. Yeah. The Brisco brothers are a wrestling duo from the 60s, 70s, and 80s, and they stayed in wrestling, and one of them unfortunately passed away, but Jerry Briscoe is still around. He, like, recruits for the WWE. And we're friends with a dude named Conrad Thompson, who is big in that world. He's got a podcast and stuff.

And he's married to Rick Flair's daughter. So that hell. We meet Jerry. Jerry is an old man now, and he's hilarious. he is a he's full-blooded Cherokee or half-terrachian? I mean it's from Oklahoma He's the real he's a real goddamn deal

He's been around forever We're getting drunk not Italian Right no right We're getting high with him We're talking all kinds of you know Stories It's like it's like he doesn't know He's in the other room

We can hear him on the mic It's fine now you can't They won't pick it up It's just a loud space It is And he's in here And he's talking about hanging out With John Anderson

And I am just drunk enough to make this joke. I've gotten comfortable enough with this guy, and I go, well, Seminole win about you, and he pauses, and he looks at me real slowly and gravely. I'm like, oh, fuck, I fit in him, and he goes, I am Seminole win.

Motherfucker. I come from Florida. John Anderson's from Florida. I know John, like, yes, that's like Florida State anthem. And people love that song, because that's the thing. Like, culturals are meant to be shared. It's like what you were saying. Yeah, it sounds like he can't write a song about it. You know what I mean?

to, you know, right, it's in great reverence and it's all, it's, you know, weeping the old ways of losing that sort, especially Florida, which is an amazing wildland, even though I know everybody thinks it's the penis of America, but still, it's like, it's beautiful and it's wild and it was a, it was a, it was a, first frontier. But that's part of it, for sure. But, you know, I think it was mourning, that song mourns the loss of, you know, a time when nature and the things that the Native Americans really cherished is passing to development like it's reverential and I agree and I'm so I don't think Indian outlaw is all that reverential it's too lighthearted but listen though here's what I here's

what I was agree to disagree Trey so love that no I'm not so but listen we would be hypocritical bags of shit oh I was going to let them here later point out okay well we know we'll bring it all right because in the in our fans deserve to hear it so go ahead so so all right a song all that aside about indian outlaw our buddy tushar who you met two char sing who's from alabama he's a comedian and uh he does shows with us sometimes he's doing the shows with us here at zanis and uh we had the idea the last time he was with us that it would be funny if he came his walk-up music on stat to when he comes up on stage was indian outlaw by tim mcgraw he's indian like you know his parents are from indian

India, he's Indian. But now it's become a thing. See, that's funny. Right, it is funny, right? I brought him up last night, and I forgot that we'd made that his music, and I literally collapsed on stage laughing when it came. I'm out. I saw him, I heard that, and I just fucking fell out.

We're watching from the green room. We can see him on screen, but we can't see the whole crowd. Two starts doing his act, and then he asked the question, are there any Indians here? And he looks to his left, and a table's going crazy. And he goes, no, you're like a native American. American Indian. That's not what I mean and he made some jokes to the guy. No, he goes, what he said was

he turned around, look, saw the guy and this guy's went to a few of our shows and he is Native American. Good dude. Tushar saw him there. He's like, hey, any Indians in the house he looks over it? He goes, wrong Indian man, who's like, sorry about your people by the way. So we saw that from backstage, but we couldn't see the guy.

I walk out there, I am 10 minutes into my act and I turn left and I see the guy and I completely get slated because he looks like if Hollywood was cast in a Native American. The dude is fully embraced his heritage. You know what I mean? It's not just like, oh, he's got long hair. I mean, he had on a Native American shirt with all the

colors on it and the feathers. No, dude. No, no, no. Maybe the overshirt. His t-shirt he was wearing, was a rainbow-colored Millennium Falcon, I believe. Look like Indianapolis. Is that the god of your people? Anyway, I fell onto the stage,

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and use LT23 to get 20% off your first order. That's 20% off your first order, American-giant.com. Code LT23. Well, all right, I made an offer about the millennial facking shirt. my bet, everybody. Well, what else you got, Drew? Well, you were trying to say something about the Indian outlaw song, not to wear out the Indian Outlaw song, but...

You can't wear it out. Yeah, you can't. You were about to say something about it, I felt like. No, I just wanted to bring up the fact that, like, we're sitting over here, like, having this analytical discussion about the racist nature of that song or whatever, and I just wanted to, put out there that we have our Indian buddy come on stage to it every night as like a joke, you know, because it's like just so that like just sure that we weren't hypocrites.

Sorry I missed. Yeah, just full disclosure because like that story is worth it to me. The whole thing is worth it to me. To see the confusion on the crowd's face because like that's one of those where half the crowd gets it immediately. Well, everything can't be for everybody. My God. I would love to see that. Well, you will tonight.

They will tonight. Really? That's why I said, don't tell them. but then I let him tell you guys because we wanted the audience to hear it. Okay. We put the audience listening to this podcast over YouTube. You forgot.

You know him. Right. Yeah. I put in the fucking song for him. You know the show. Yeah. Well, what else? I don't know.

I mean, I had... Oh, good. We were on a roll. I fucked it up. No. No. Did y'all have stuff specific things you wanted to hit? We did.

And then we, uh, but y'all are so great that we just kind of fired off. I do. I know. I know. Let's talk about all the triggers that we could possibly bring out. I know one thing, and this is a very broad question that we wanted to talk to you specifically about, and I saw it, you made your debut on the David Letterman show, and then you became buddies with Dave and have worked with Dave in some capacity over the past couple years.

Go on. Okay. Well, when you say debut, I mean, I don't know what it was a, I mean, it was a debut on late-night television for sure, but that was not something we were gunning for. So it was very out of the blue, not, you know, something that I was looking towards happening. It happened fast. And he just listens to my radio show on Sirius XM. And he had me on and wanted me to come.

I thought, oh, I'm going to play Letterman, which is weird. I'm in between record cycles right now. But he was like, no, they want you to sit on the couch. He wants to talk to you. And I was like, what? Yeah. I was absolutely mortified. I didn't understand it.

I didn't understand why. wanted to talk to me. I was a little bit, there was just no, no preface to it at all. And, and so when I got there, same. The first time I met him is when I walk on camera in front of millions of people and meet him. And he, he was wonderful. And let just set me up over and over again, you know, like he does. Historically had great taste in music. He's, I've discovered, him and Conan are like the two late night guys were like, I discovered so much music through the, I mean, you know, Conan introduced the world of the white stripes. And yeah, and like,

fucking Dave would have Todd Snyder on when he wasn't in the middle of a record or nothing. You almost fought Todd today. You almost fought him? You almost brought him today. Todd, the first time I saw you was D-Roehlop. He told me earlier.

I thought about it. I can't get him out of the lake. Oh, I'm sure. The first time I saw you was at Todd Snyder at the playhouse in Atlanta. Does that make sense? Would that have been it? And I, my mouth fell in love immediately. And my dad did.

my dad may be a bigger fan of yours than me and I texted him before the show and I said do you have any questions for Elizabeth and he said, yeah, just one, is she into old married dudes? Man, I tell you what, if I was, I have hit the light old because, yeah, my social media

deals, as dad started to get on Instagram, my shit's blow it up. I guess... Larges gay men and old married women, so yeah, we hear it. I guess my larger question was, so I noticed, you know, like he, you see Todd a lot, on Letterman, you go up there

and Tom Waits was his last musical guest. The guys always put up people who weren't commercially, it wasn't for that, whereas Leno was always like, oh yeah, Maroon 5, they got a good song out, you know, whatever. And whatever, that's just how he did, but in the community, is it a known thing that, like, Letterman's great for independent artists

and Letterman really truly loves this shit? Oh, absolutely, and it's hurt, you know, since he's gone, but really late-night TV overall, sadly, you know, a dying tradition, it seems, but for sure, you know, know, everybody knew that Dave was somebody that's just, he genuinely cares about music and he decides to use his platform on a systematic basis to try and introduce the music that he loves to his fans by, and therefore moving the ball, you know, for culture. And it was a great service

and helped a lot of people. And certainly, you know, blew my world up. I mean, it was crazy in those years after that appearance. I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard it maybe you can confirm. I heard one time that Letterman, he was like, he big into Reckless Kelly, also, which I love reckless Kelly, and that he wanted him to play a party at his house in Montana, and they were booked, and he just bought them the fuck out. Like, he was just like, no, you're not doing that concert. You're coming to play at my house, and they did, and it was just.

I don't know that story specifically to validate it, but it sounds plausible. Based on what I do know, that is plausible. He does have a place in Montana. He does have music there, and I've done some private parties for him. Good enough for me. Stamp it. Stamp it. I cannot confirm the reckless Kelly story.

I have a follow-up that I think both of you can touch on. You were talking about what that did for you. My wife and I were talking recently, when no doubt, you know the band, no doubt. When they came out, it was such a revelation for me for a lot of reasons. Because I think that what I realize now is that I was young at the time. Popular music is so watered down. You were talking about the patriarchy, and especially what country, music has done and tried to do to as you said I think you called him wild talk talking women growing up

you know I was coming of age listening to country music as a young person in the rural south when you couldn't be a wild talking woman at all I mean even redneck woman would have been too much much less the song that you got banned for and the pill and all that there was a time when I was very young in my defense that I really thought oh I just don't like many women artists I just don't I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say that. And then I realized, as I got older and discovered more of them, oh, they're hiding the types of artists I already identify and it's not happening to the male ones.

Yep. Is that changing at all with the Internet? Is the Internet and the things we've been touching on helping that at all? Yeah, and absolutely, of course. And I would also say it's changing with Taylor Swift. Because there's always been great female artist always. and there's always been female artists that have been able to translate

their greatness into public Tammy Wynette on and on. But I think culturally and historically, when you're a little girl coming up, you might get the microphone if you're in the beauty pageant, but little boys get guitars and drum sets. And so just as really, to be honest,

like as a part of our little slice of the culture, you know, there's places where female artists haven't evolved as much just by condition. of how our society treats us. Right. But because of Taylor Swift, there's a whole bunch of little girls that back in whatever year

that she came out started getting acoustic guitars with pink, you know, rhinestones on them or whatever. And I think, yeah, it's getting, and there's always been exceptions. But I think that it's getting better and better. And I think there's a generation of female singer-songwriters that are going to come up behind her, you know, 10 years from now that are going to be like really, really fucking good. Is she bigger with those kids than Dolly Parton was in her prime? I'd say it's relative.

I don't know bigger, but I'd say relatively, like, as she is their dolly, maybe. It seems to me like it'd be hard to be much bigger than Taylor Swift. If we're going to start talking about the new Dolly part, and then we got to talk about Casey Mosgraves instead of Taylor Swift. Yeah, yeah. I was not at all that. I was not. This motherfucker, that is not what he was trying.

I know. I actually was afraid that they were about to tell you that they did Taylor Swift. And I don't. I just think she's overrated. I mean, I don't give a shit about her music, but I'm not her audience. Right. You know, I mean. So it's like, but I, but in speaking of, like, female artists like being good or not good on a more regular basis,

I think that we're going to see that Taylor Swift has played a role in little girls getting guitars. And I think that that wasn't always part of our reality. If you want to sing, you go to church or to the beauty pageant. That's what you do. That's, first of all, that's awesome. in general, but it's awesome you say that because I feel like my whole thing was I was like, oh, they just

weren't getting shown to me. But you're also suggesting, well, part of it is they had to go to different fields or to be artists somewhere else because they weren't getting guitars given to them or they didn't see themselves as that. Yeah, I think it's just a skill set that, you know, in general, has just been a little less, is a little

less evolved. There's no argument. I mean, I think that's just the reality of it, and I'm not saying that women don't have the same set of shit to be able to total doing something more makes you better at it. I just think the opportunity, it doesn't matter. The opportunity has not been as pervasive

because of our culture and how we view girls. There's a perfect parallel for that in comedy that I've argued a lot. And then like you said, I just don't think I like female artists, I guess. And you didn't realize like, oh, no shit. I just wasn't hearing the best ones or whatever.

In comedy, there's the whole like every fuck, you know, uh, uh, what's his face? He died. He was the, he was just old smart boy. Bill Hickicks. No, not Bill Hicks. He wasn't a comedian. Christopher Hitchens.

Hitchens, you know, went on this whole like, women aren't funny, blah, blah, blah. And he was breaking down the science behind it. And then like a bunch of like Carolla jumped on and they're like, women aren't fun. And here's the thing. It said, no, women haven't been allowed to be funny. That's why you can't have people who don't come from a culture, start throwing numbers and shit around. It's like, do you have no clue how that happened. Right.

You're looking at the bottom line. You need to do math up top and figure out where this shit came from. 100%. There was a period of time where I thought I didn't give a shit about country music anymore. I thought we were done with this shit. I was like, it's over. You know, bro country, because the alternative to bro country, the outside the system, the only way you could make money at this point in the industry was to be outlaw.

So you had a lot of people running around calling themselves outlaws and shit. That was the only way you could survive. This was men and women. So my thing wasn't like, I don't like female artists. I was like new country music is awful. and I just didn't pay attention to it for at least 10 years, probably closer to 15, but now, and it's been getting better consistently, but right now, any night of the week that I want to, I can go out and see some new artists here in Nashville, no one's ever heard of, and they're making stuff that's going to be huge, and people are going to hear this. And so it's really difficult for me, like, to sit around and have this conversation about everything that's, like, wrong with the industry right now. because I know that it's not going to last that long.

It's about to get taken over. They don't know what's coming for them. Well, I mean, it seems to me as very much an outsider, like that it's already started when I see who's winning the awards. Maybe not who's winning them, but who's on the list of nominees. You've got guys winning awards and then shitting on the entire association giving them the award. I wanted to talk to about. I wanted to talk to you about it so bad.

I was in the building. I didn't hear. We were in the building. We were standing backstage together. Yeah, we were standing. We didn't hear what he said, though, until later we didn't know what he had said. That's right, yeah. Because we were there for, this is actually a pretty great story.

Because it went on TV. Something happened, but what happened. I can't remember what it was. Irma Thomas saying, Time is on my side. Oh, and her smack wasn't on. That's what it was. We were next to present right after that. So we were standing in the wings.

We're just listening to the stage mix. Like, we're here and her singing this song in the rhyming. Time is on my side. It was amazing. It was bad ass. And she gets done. And that's when I realized there was a problem. and people started acting.

Yeah, people were standing up and yelling at this. I'm like, what the fuck happened? I was like, that was amazing. There's no way people are mad about that. And someone's like the PA wasn't on. No one could hear her. The PA at the ramen just went, boop. So they had to go get her.

They're filming it for later broadcast. They had to go get her. She comes out, does it again, nails it again. And it's actually even better because I didn't see the broadcast, but I would assume it looked way better. Because when she finished the second time, they acted like she scored the winning goal Well, it's also funny, the name of the song.

She was doing Thomas on my side. They reacted like they should have the first time. It was so good. But the second time, they appreciated it so much more. Could I pause to point out that where country music in the South has come, that my man just made a soccer reference and talking about something that was going on the rhyme? I think that's a beautiful thing. Cultures are really mixing up now.

We really come a long way. I miss that one. Wait, so you think, like, that this trend of, yeah, bro country and all the shit that's been going on with popular country music lately, which I feel is definitely, like, you know, come to a head, but you think that it's not going to last? We're going to swing back in the other direction. I don't know how long it's going to last because there are acts touring right now

that it would amaze you to learn how long they've been able to make it off of a hit. I don't know how long it'll last, but I know that every year it's going to get easier to stop paying attention to it because it's going to be just as easy to pay attention to, what you like instead of that. And yeah, that's great to hear. I really hope that's correct. Because, like, I was going to bring up how,

that whole, at some point, I wanted to talk about the, like, country Americana thing, you know, which Tyler Childers, we brought up a minute ago, was talking all about that. Like, because I live in Southern California now, and I am the thing that I am, so I'll get asked about, like, country music a lot.

And so, and people as, well, what about it? I'm like, yeah, I love country music. It's my shit. love it. And they're like, what about Americana? Like, what, like, what is that? Like, people ask me to define that. And the thing I always say is, and I'm not a musician, but just like, as a fan, I'm like, as far as I can tell, it seems to be country music, that's good. If it's bad, then it's called country by everyone nowadays. And if it's good, that's now apparently Americana, which I, like, where the fuck did that even?

And is that going to maintain? So like if that, if this train goes in the way you're saying in 20 years, will it be like huge and popular, but now it's Americana and then it starts getting bastardized and stuff? I can't predict the future, but I can tell you that this has all happened over and over and over again. Like in the 1950s, you and me would be having this conversation about is it country music or is it rock? Right. because if you go listen to George Jones recording a white lightning, that's a fucking rock and roll song. There ain't nothing country about it, you know?

I mean, it's country because he's country, but you can't be like, here's why this is country music instead of rock and roll. It's like, no, that's just a rock and roll song. And not for nothing, that Buck Owens live at Carnegie Hall, that whole thing is fucking, I mean, that's rock as shit. That's a desert island record for me. It's a good goddamn record. That is a, I have to have it, my life. Yeah, that and the one, was it in the Netherlands or Netherlands or? Japan?

No, well, I've heard that one's great. Yeah. Maybe it is, maybe it is the one that was in Japan. I know it was the one that's in Japan because him and Don Rich start like telling jokes and shit and you can tell like nobody's getting it, but they're cracking themselves jokes. But like, you know what I mean? But like, it's, but like that, even the song, who's going to mow your grass? Like, so that's, that sounds really country and it is.

But like, Don Rich is just fucking wheylaying it. And Buck is more of a rock star than his. They're virtuosos. Yeah. That, uh, There's a good video recording of a Buckaroos, Buck and the Buccaroos set in Sweden, I think. Yeah, the black and white video. It's so good.

It's one where they play the same guitar. It's awesome. It's also the one you pointed out where they're playing the same guitar and Don Rich and Buck Owens both at the exact same time. They're playing the same guitar solo. That's the Sam's Place video. Okay, right on. You blew my mind on that goddamn episode, man. Because I feel some of that shit with us.

our chemistry is so well that like I'm like how did you know to finish that sentence I hadn't even thought of that before and you you came that's fucking weird people can become extensions of other people it's it's a real thing yeah it is I that's why we should be able to culturally appropriate that's all I'm going to say fucking phenomenal sorry I keep bringing it home don't apologize you don't have to it's 2018 yeah but is it getting well so but what is country music the label the genre

like as people perceive it to be because I see you shitting on Americana I almost think as a joke while delivering the words like you made a tweet one time and I'm not trying to put you on blast I'm saying like what's happening here it like does the end should we stop with this bullshit

which is what seemed like Tyler was saying is like stop fucking call me Americaana I know what I am I'm a country artist or should we that's how I feel about it too like it seems like a made up word or should we go all right clearly what country means to people ain't what I am anymore, so I'm fine with the new. I don't really care what anyone else says about anything is sort of my whole deal.

Yeah, we can tell. We follow you. But my thing is that country music is good, was good, and will continue to be good, and that's sort of what I'm making all my noise about. I totally get that. So I don't, like, I'll just... A question about the industry, though. Like, you don't have to predict the future, but, like, what is...

So what happened with the rock and roll country thing? Fuck the future. What happened in the past? Oh, well, if you look at rock and roll, there's all sorts of secret country music in there. Just like, you know, I mean, Neil Young made country music often. You know, one year he had the best-selling. I mean, you want to talk about Garth Brooks?

Like, people realizing that you can make money in, by crossing over to country music, you got to talk about harvest. You know, that's one of the biggest crossover albums ever. So if we, if that, if the past predicts the future, then it sounds like Tyler Childers, for example, will be Americana. forever because that's what he got labeled at earlier.

It's just a word they're calling something. They need a word to put on the poster. They called Neil Young Middle of the Road. I mean, it's really shouldn't matter. Oh, really? I think the... I called Neil Young Middle of the Road. You remember that term, middle of the road radio?

M-O-R? That's what that stands for when you look at the... It's middle of the road. I think that we're... I think we all fundamentally agree on, you know, what you just says. Like, that's just a word that they're just calling it, and that's how we all feel about it. But I do wonder if in the few... Like what Drew's saying is... That's not a word to 15.

year olds. Will it stay? Yeah, will that remain like consistent so that in the future the stuff that I think is country music, you know,

good country music, it will just become known as like Americana later. Like, and that's just what it is moving forward. Yeah, who knows? I mean, I don't really know that.

I just think they needed, it's just branding. The marketing people needed something to call it. You know, if you guys are like redneck comedy, you know, or liberal Southern

or whatever. You know, they're just looking for words to attach to something that Tyler doesn't get played on country radio, so he's therefore. By branding standards, he's not country. We had Irma Thomas on that stage, too, though. So it's not just country music. So Americana, this specific word, you know, like, yeah, pick a word, it doesn't mean anything. But this specific one had us, got us with Irma Thomas and John Prine on the same stage. You know, anytime we can get Irma Thomas and John Prine on the same stage in a night, call it whatever the fuck you want to.

I don't care. Bring two chains up there. It's a lot easier to make up a new word that start calling Irma Thomas Contry or John Prine's soul. So basically what this specific word is is just a way to try to help old people survive. All right, I'm serious. It's like...

So fucking communism, I hear you. Please keep paying attention to music that was made from this source, which is, you know, American music. Like soul, blues, country, rock. These are American art forms. And a lot of what's popular in pop music is electronic. I was doing that microphone thing. You were getting mad about it earlier. Oh, you're bad. You project. You have a bearer. Also, I'm a little afraid of you, so I'm not going to talk to it.

Sorry. But yeah, I mean, so that's the thing is this is a way for these people to survive. You sort of do need to come up with a new word if you're going to find a way to get this group of artists who are drawing from. There were blues artists also. I didn't see the whole lineup. I know this is terrible. I know there were legends. There was a legendary blues guitar. We were having a good time. We kind of missed some of this stuff.

Oh, fuck. Was it buddy guy that was on it? I don't remember. It's terrible. I can't. I just saw the name on the lineup and I was like, that's fucking cool. I mean, my head's blown up 50 times since then.

They're great. And they're great. And they got mad about Tyler Childers' speech. And I get it because they're saying, you came in there and you shit on a place that we've been embraced. But I also get his point, which is like, I don't know what this word. But he's yelling at maybe the wrong people. That's all.

It's a generational thing, I think. It's a context thing, I think, too. Like, who were you yelling out and why? I'm just saying, for me, I loved it all. Like, the fact that Warren Treaty and Tyler Childers are on the same stage. Tyler's making a name for himself. And we're sitting here talking about him right now. It's a move.

It was a move. Not for nothing. That day that that all happened, we had talked to Tyler earlier that day because we were in Lexington, correct. We were going to see if he wouldn't hang out. And he's like, well, boys, I got shit going. going on but I'm up here making a goat stew and I ain't going to have you know just so like he goes through all his I'm covered in goat blood and so when that happened I was like yep that happened that fucking you know like I that's what I expected from that dude and if you said there's a stark

raving hill jack that got in your back door and I'm covered in goat blood and he didn't say I'm not going to take any shit but that was like the general of it but that's what I was like to me I was like oh you're you're making a point you're making a statement right he's really good at what he does you know there's it it's a generational thing I'm not too I think they it's sort of on you to make sure you know who you're giving an award to I think agree yeah and I can't say I haven't you know in some form or another like rebuke something that was trying to be nice to me you know so country music is all about rebuke and shit no you know that's fucking that's outlaw god damn it going up there covered

in goat blood and talking about how everybody fucking sucks yeah I mean I see you know I see both like was it you know some people would say well that that's rude and that ain't country because we're polite god damn it you know that was rude these people these people trying to give you a trophy but he's frustrated with like a bigger you know a bigger systematic problem and he was airing that and i think earnestly airing that and i think it doubled as a great career move one thing me and corey have talked about before is like when it comes to the old the old guard and the old outlaw guys back in the day and everything because like we love all those stories you know and and they're like great

and hugely entertaining and like it's like steeped in this like lower almost which is all great and we love it but we also will be like but you know if we remove ourselves from it for a minute it's probably for the best that people don't generally be acting that way all the time anymore you know what I mean fucking shooting there's so much raveness there's so much raveness going on like and so well come and it's weird because like at the same time again the like general like corporatizing of the music and like making it more bland and all that. I hate that shit. But generally speaking, it's better to not, you know, be fucking lunatics out here, right?

Like as are like have artists that aren't, you know, shooting at their tour managers and stuff. I think it's a great area, really. Well, like, you know, you hear, you heard the old stories of like Elvis, you know, Elvis had to have three TVs because that's how the goddamn president did. Who was that he didn't like, and if they were on TV, he'd shoot the TV? I don't remember. I think Milton Burl. We'll just say that. It was something like that.

And every time Elvis would see this motherfucker, he'd shoot the goddamn TV, and somebody would bring Elvis a fucking new TV. That's a rad story. But good fucking Lord. Can you imagine? Like, you know, that's not, that ain't the person to be. So, like, I'm kind of glad that I could, I don't know, people are nicer. Yeah, you don't want to be zombies, but there's also a matter of civility. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's like, you know, you let Elvis do whatever he wants. but, well, this sort of behavior isn't exclusive to even just the music industry. What we're talking about is just fame in general and celebrity in general and being isolated by that. It's a really awful thing to see. I don't know why anyone wants to be famous. I know that that's an insane statement in 2018 when everyone's addicted to seeing how many likes they get on stuff like that. I think that fame is awful. It's not ever fun to have people trying to find out what you're doing all the time and things like that.

And the worst part about what I see happening now is kids who aren't going to find a way to turn it into a career because there's no actual meat. There's no skill set to attach. There's no skill set to attach. They just want the fame, period. And like you say, you know, I don't know why anybody would be famous. And like, clearly your star is rising. very quickly through your amazing

part. I can go nowhere with Tyler. I see so many mean things. No, I know. There's no way. Yeah, but dude, but you know, I don't know if you found out, but like most of the world sucks and is mean, so like they, you know, we love it when people shit on stuff. But, yeah, it's fine. But so what I'm saying is like,

yeah, the fame is just wanting to be famous to be famous is one thing. If you end up being famous, it's because you put in so much work to you want to put out a good product. And if you put out a really good products, sometimes you end up becoming famous about that. But people nowadays, they don't want to be, they don't want to put out good work. They just want people to look at them. I can tell by just

reading the liner notes to your podcast. Like, I mean, yeah, I know you want people to hear it, but like you want people to hear this really goddamn good thing, not just, hey, I'm Tyler, look at me. Well, I just wanted it to be, I wanted the subject of country music to be treated with the respect that rock music has always been treated with, but even, classical music. I think it should be treated with the same reverence. Does rock still have that? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean,

as much as it ever did. Like, music itself is a pretty niche interest, you know. Like, actually liking music is way less popular than actually liking sports. Really? Oh, for sure. Yeah. Sports generates Well, sports, maybe. What about

compared to other arts? I mean, look at how much athletes get paid and how many of them there are versus what Well, it's like wrestling and art. I mean, wrestling probably makes a lot of money. Music. I feel like music is sort of... She just called wrestling and art.

Well, also, there's a difference... Well, I recognize it as a play. There's a difference between being a musician and just being an A-less celebrity. Like, Kanye isn't just making money from being a-less celebrity. He is a-less celebrity. So that's a totally different level.

Right. The Kardashian factor. At this one, he's famous for being famous as much as anything. Like, I think with the chili I mean like seriously like with like books and stuff like if you go to the music's department of a book and look at how many books there are on any genre rock's going to have the most because more due to take themselves and what they like seriously in that genre than any other genre. I think that when everyone who's right now like 22 is a professor and all that though I think it's going to be right.

Oh for sure. Yeah. Ariana Grande courses in college. Yeah. That'll be the day man. It'll happen. Yeah. I mean I think that people just have.

I mean, as we've, like, people have different things that they, different generations have different things they relate to. What do you guys think about, he just said something about it. It'll be rap in a few years. What Steve Earle said about modern popular country. That was true when he said it. It was like 10 years ago, right? What did Steve Earl say? It's rap music for people that are afraid of black people is what, like, pop country is nowadays.

He said that like 10 years ago, right? What does Bobby Bear call it? He calls them flat billiare. He called all the bro-country guys. Flat-bellied air humpers. Bobby Bear is a, if you ever get a chance to sit with him, you guys should sit with Bobby Bear. I wish I could.

My late grandmother was such a goddamn huge fan. She used to always tell that story that Mel Tillis told on the, God damn it. Oh, Mel Tillis. What did I say something wrong? No. There was a, this was Bobby Bear saying this. But, you know, Mel Tillis had the stutter or whatever. They were living together.

And Ralph Emery Show, that's what he said on. the Ralph Embry show. So there was somebody broke into their house and Mel was trying to explain to him like we there's, and he couldn't get it out. And Bobby just goes, sing it. And he goes, Bobby Bear, there's a burglar in the house. Now, I don't know how true that is. He did tell the story and always crack me the fuck up.

They're, they're brilliant. And yeah, I can't imagine that sitting with Bobby Bear isn't on the table for you guys. I mean, I'll hit Holla. I can, yeah, we can make a phone call. He don't have Twitter. do you want here. I would fucking love to talk to Bobby Berry. Yeah, he's doing a podcast.

He just started one, yeah. And he's really cool. We're going to be on a boat with him. Yeah, I interviewed him on that Outlaw Country cruise two years ago. I got to sit with him and I was just like, I was so like goo-goo in love with him all the time. I was talking. He's very, very sophisticated and funny and laid back. He's the man.

Bobby Bear is the man. He's the man. He is. We were talking about Outlaw Country thing earlier. a lot of people don't give him much credit for the influence that he had on that movement but he was a big part of that too for sure. And rolling with Shell Silverstein who wrote

you know, boy named Sue and... What do you think about, you know... One's on the way. Outlaw country's the thing. Now, it's like, you know, it's like a... Well, here's the thing about all-a-country... It's like a brand or whatever. I've been having to think about it and talk about it a lot because the country music Hall of Fame just opened an exhibit,

which if y'all are in town long enough, y'all should go for sure. I could probably get you in there. It's their biggest exhibit, in the big space, the outlaw country one. It's incredible. We were down there when it opened, and people were asking me a lot of questions,

so I'm thinking about it a lot. And it's, again, like we said earlier, it's one of the most successful crossover time periods for the genre of country music. So that's what most people talk about when they're talking about old country music being good, unless they're talking about 90s and they're younger. but Outlaw Country

now is sort of regarded as being this traditional like a return to the traditions of country music and everything and really getting back to the pure sound of country music but that is not at all what it actually that's what the pictures might fucking look like maybe if you're looking at picture books in the library but if you listen to the albums isn't that why it was called Outlaw?

It's one of the most adventurous time periods in the genre they're branching out pulling in soul music, R&B. I mean, even, like, Waylon Jennings specifically is pulling in gospel, R&B, he's got choirs all over this stuff, string sections all over this stuff. And bucking corporate country interest,

which is what, you know, how it should translate now as well. Country music, to define the sound of it, has always been impossible to pin down, really. You know, it's just got a thing to it. It's either there or it's not, really. I don't know anyone whose opinion I respect who's got a great definition of it. There's either some really stupid pedantic definition of like it's going to have these intervals and this.

Musicology. Yeah, this specific instrumentation, that kind of shit, which who cares? I keep thinking of that Supreme Court case where they said porn. I was like, well, I know it when I see it. Yeah. It's like, what's the difference between obscene and artwork? Well, I know it when I see it, which. Is that the Larry Flant case?

Yeah, I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, that's how... That's the type of Supreme Court shit I know about if it had Dix and Buzz involved. Yeah, I'm all over it. I mean, yeah, that is what it is with country music. And probably a lot of genres, too, but that's how, like, because, again, not a musician

and not, like, trained in musical theory or any of that. But I feel like, so I don't have a definition for country music. But I feel like I know it when I hear it, you know, like... I feel like there's an accessibility to it, and I shouldn't even go down the road of trying to define it either, but I think there's a lyrical accessibility or some, some, some sort of, it's like not hard to like mine in. You don't have to listen to like, what's Ozzy really trying to say?

And we should play this backwards and there'll be even another message. You know, it's like very like... Usually if a song is actually about something, up front. It's either country music or coming from the same place. That's the one, that's the one maybe consistency that... There was that, uh, let's bring this up and try to get Tyler hated.

There was that Gladwell, that Malcolm Gladwell podcast. Oh, buddy. Yeah. revision is history. Yes. Where he said that, but then he said a bunch of other things. We can talk about the other things he said, I saw your response and I thought it was great.

I thought it was brilliant. But I did think when I listened to... Wait, he said what? I'm sorry. I don't know. He said basically in comparing country music to rock and roll, one of his main thesis was that country music is about a story and rock and roll is more general.

And I gathered from reading what you wrote, that was... I don't even know if you agree with that, but that was the only common ground you could find with them in the whole episode and we can get into the other stuff if you want but I did kind of think I did personally agree with that there are different kinds of stories though

there are funny stories and sad stories his main point was that country music is sadder than pop music that's true he did say that go fuck yourself there's like there's a actually like let's sit down with a hundred songs you bring a hundred I'll bring a hundred

you bring only country songs I'm going to show up with only pop songs let's see who makes the other one cry more I'm in. I'm in. I'll fuck him up. There's a long and storied tradition in country music of like comedy in particular. Like humor and country music. Like country music is filled with great jokes and, you know, funny shit.

Like we had a Hayes Carl on this podcast and we talked to him about that because like he's got a lot of funny-ass fucking songs. People think we're too stupid to be funny on purpose. Exactly. that's what yeah it's really hard to be funny and they're like they think it's funny like accidentally just triggered everyone sitting at this table before you complain too much about it though before the three of us complain about it specifically it turns out if you point that out and say okay but we are going to be the opposite of that you'll get you know you might get a tour out of it you know what I made a book deal oh dude literally there's people that love me because it's literally it's just because he said a smart

thing in a dumb way you know what I know like that's like Like, some people, that's the whole thing. I know that. You don't hear it. I know. You hear how he says fucking. I'm so grateful. Yeah.

It's a portmanteau. That might be 80% of the internet juice, but at the live shows, it's 8020 the other way. It's especially when we're in the South. It's people going like, thank fucking God. Right. That you're just being funny. Yeah, because you're actually in a room with these people, unlike Malcolm fucking glad. There it is.

Who's just talking shit? Because he read some shit. How you feel, Tyler? How you feel? That is his whole goddamn day. I read some shit. I'm going to talk some shit. No, but also, also, he doesn't even care.

So at ours and asked her. First of all, he doesn't care. Because at this point, he's just showing up and talking. Sure. I don't know how many people he's got doing research for him. I don't know where they're finding this shit. I don't know where he's finding them. You know?

Yale and Harvard's doing any of this stuff. I guarantee that. I don't know how the end product comes out. All I'm eating is the sausage. And it tastes like shit. You know? So. I got mad at him. Maybe it isn't specifically him. His name's on it. I don't know. No one has given me a reason to not specifically get mad at him. So I'm mad at him for now.

So another thing that you have said that I loved. That was fantastic. Thank you. It was as pre-seen as what you just said about pop, sad pop music, but even more so, and it pissed a lot more people off, I think. I imagine it did. Which was, you give me, you pick out the worst record of, oh, I forgot what I got mad about this first of all. You're talking about the Bob Dylan thing? Yeah, no one cared. Everyone knew I was right. They were like, they read it. I didn't have a single person take me up on that. So you had a bad day. No, because they just know how bad the worst Bob Dylan album is.

You don't even have to agree on which one it is. You just know there are like 10 that could be the worst album ever made maybe, you know. So, yeah, versus Tom T. Hall. The worst Tom T. Hall album, not that bad. Right. You know, it's not that fucking bad for sure. Not at all. The worst Bob Dylan album is difficult to get.

You're going to be trying to find ways Like I guess you halfway through the Dylan one They would just be like, you know what? You're right. Fuck it. I can't believe no one got mad. If Tom T. Hall did something bad, he was at least fucking charming when he was doing it.

Also, yeah. Or he made it in his garage. Right. He was fucking around. Like no one would even say that the basement tapes were the worst Dylan release even though they are pretty shitty. They're fucking terrible. Yeah, they're pretty shitty.

You know, good songs. Terrible recording of those songs. The recording quality is terrible. Right. But no one gets mad about it because of what it is. No one gets mad because of what it is. It's just a garage demo. So like the worst Tom T. Hall album probably sounds like a garage demo. So you can't get mad about that, right? No, I agree. And I mean, most of my favorite country music does sound like it was recorded in a garage.

Well, that's the famous comment that Billy Cheryl made about Redheaded Stranger. He said that Redheaded Stranger sounded like Willie Nelson went and made a demo. Cool, let's go make the album. But he wants to put it out. Sometimes people want Lo Fy. The strokes made a career out of it. Sounds super low-fi. Well, Roger Allen Wade, when he put out de Guello Motel.

Love Roger. Oh, too. And I used to, my dad and Roger, Roger grew up near where I was from, and him and my dad way early on. My dad's way more friends with his brother Richie, Sugar Bear Wade. But they picked together and stuff, and I was fortunate enough. Early on in my career, I got to open for Roger when he was just playing the dives in Chattanooga.

I sucked, by the way. But it was great just to hang out there with him. You were singing then, right? Yeah, yeah, no. I was doing, I was in a stupid bar band, but I would open for him, and then I would just watch Roger go up for two hours and just make these old barflies just, you know, drop their leather drawers. And every, you know, every one of his, I wrote this song's about a girl.

And then here he'd go. Well, then he comes out with DeGuelo and I'll tell you it and put out anything in a while. And it literally sounds like he's just in a hotel room recording this shit. Probably was. And it, I guarantee it. And it was such a three strings in the truth testament. And it's one of my favorite fucking records. It's the sound of like non-pretention.

I think that it's sort of like peels away a certain pretension. So it's a style. It's a certain thing. And sometimes that's what you want to hear. You want to feel like you're hanging out in like some 70s living room with Willie Nelson. I don't know if I ever got put out,

but I've had this recording that I've had for years of Rogers sitting around and playing a set at his cousin's place. Like someone just put a microphone up. This is 15 years ago. It's got 20 song recording. Everyone just sitting around having a good time. Sounds like shit. Real fun to listen to.

Right. You know? He did a, we did a benefit together one time. He was, our buddy Aaron, he had cancer and I was putting on this thing at the comedy catch and I was going to do stand-up

and I was like, I need to get somebody to sell tickets to this. I was like, I'll call Roger. Oh, hell. Fuck yeah, I'll be there. You know, when is it? And Roger,

and I'm not going to speak to where he's at right now. I don't know, but Roger was sober, trying to do his best. and I remember like during the show comedians would be going up and Roger would keep going outside and come back in I was like Roger you need something I said what do you need

he's like I'm not one third I have a red bull and I was like well I got red bull in here he goes no you don't understand he goes he goes he goes I got him in my car and I got to go out there and I got to get him out of my car and I got to drink them out there because it feels like I'm doing something wrong so I don't want I don't want y'all's cold fucking red bull in here and it was the I was like dude even in suburb you're the most gangster-ass motherfucker.

Like, this is crazy. That's part of it, though. That's part of addiction. For sure. He needs to think... Ritual. It's all about a ritual. It's about controlling things.

Yeah. It's sometimes smart to do things. But that guy is truly tremendous, and I don't know that... I mean, you know, I'm biased on him because I grew up knowing who the fuck he was, but I don't know where he is at in the lexicon of country music and term...

I know you. People who know what's going on know what. Yeah. Sure. You know, I think it's unfortunately obscure. I wish it was less obscure. I wear a Roger Allenway t-shirt all the time. I don't have a Roger Allenway t-shirt.

I'm not killing it. I'll call him. He was on the out-all country cruise a couple years. Is he on the boat this year? I honestly don't know who all is going to be on there, but they told me Lucinda Williams. The trucker is going to be on there. I said, yeah. She's on every year.

I think the truckers are doing. The truckers are on this year kind of in lieu of Blackberry Smoke, which I thought is, that's a good trade-out for me. We don't usually do this, but we like very, I don't, listeners, you just miss something. that I'm going to have to later figure out what that was. But we asked to be honest. We're not like that kind of like, oh, we want to like, kill it. But we know some people that serious. We had a show there in New York when the elections were going on.

We had something on their political comedy channel they were trying to do. And we just, Corey literally just email. He got somebody's email and he was like, hey, can we just do this please? And unfortunately, they don't want to do comedy this year. Yeah, I mean, they were cool. On outlaw country cruise? Yeah, they're like, we can probably get you on the cruise and shit. and I was like, no, we can't, we got to work.

If we're going to go, we've got to work. We can't take a week off. But, yeah, no, I want to fuck. I really want to go to goddamn John Prine's All the Best Fest. You've seen him posting them, I'm sure you know. I think I did see that poster. It's like, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a fuck. Honestly, I can't even remember who all's on there because I just kind of see John

Prine and go, everything else is fine. You know, that'll be okay. I haven't told you guys this. I can tell you on the air and you guys can make fun of me. So every year I have a tradition with some of my friends where we go to the first round in the NCAA tournament and just drink. our faces off in a city and watch the games and gamble and all that stuff. This year they had put us in Sacramento. I'm not shitting on any of our fans of Sacramento. I don't like

fucking going to Sacramento very much. That's a tough town. The goddamn comedy club's in a strip mall. The fans are great, but like it's not my favorite thing to do. And every year I'm like, no, this is a weekend I went off. So I have our agent try and switch it. And he did to the next weekend. And then literally a week after he switched it, I saw that BJ Barham American Aquarium is going to be in New Orleans for a festival that trampled by Turtles, who's one of my favorite bands to watch live, is going to headline, and we absolutely could have gone to that and hung out backstage and all that, but now we're in fucking Sacramento that weekend instead.

B.J.'s awesome. God damn it. Did you see him in America on that? No, I didn't, but his, you know, went right, his steel player that was in American Aquarium is plays with me now. Oh, no shit. I know. Yeah.

Small world. Small. There was one thing in particular I wanted to ask you. you guys about that's like preemptive fuck you to both Corey and Drew before I say this word tangentially related you were thinking. I love it when you said

happen. Yeah. Anyway tangentially related to this whole thing. This whole discussion we're having Drew has got a whole big bit about it right now and it's the thing we've like been talking about and noticing for a while which is that like music aside which I feel like music

is definitely part of it but music aside like southern chic or whatever like it's gotten cool like country is like cool like fucking like plaid shirts and like car there's clothing design

we have clothing designers hipsters dress like rednecks a lot of times like and someone sent me a picture what the fuck is that about of David Beckham's son and his model girlfriend David Beckham's son Brooklyn is his name

literally had on a car heart jacket and his model girlfriend had on a real tree jacket and they because of my bit they sent me the picture of that look at this I was like yeah rich kids want to look like poor kids we down home y'all this is not a new yeah right yeah yeah was the grunge era had some of that I remember when I'm my black culture which was to look like me and all my friends were rolling around with saggy pants when I was a kid yeah but why did it happen to like it's just our whole lives we're 30 I'm 34 I'm like we're all about that age I never saw it South was never cool it was never like

we were always the butt of every joke in every capacity. Well, it's good. I mean, enjoy. I don't know. I mean, hell. I mean, it's like I have a lot of car heart because after my daddy died and I cleaned out the trailer. You know, and so.

But the thing is, from my perspective, and this is true also with like the white kids wearing all the baggy pants and all that when that was huge. It's the same type of thing. But like, it is like, it's like cool and everything. But they also, at the same time, don't like fuck with the actual. South at all. They're afraid of like southern accents. They're afraid of hillbillies and shit.

They think we're all like racist butt fuckers. You know what I mean? They like to get that like that whole like appearance going or whatever. All roads lead to cultural appropriation. Here we are again. And Bruce Springsteen has a whole show on it that everybody's losing their mind about where he basically says, I am a farce. I have co-opted New Jersey cultural.

like I'm some kind of thing. And I've been saying that for a long time. You know, right, no shit. You're looking great though. I've been thinking about that. But when we talk about authenticity, when we talk about cultural appropriation, it's all the same thing.

And so I don't like those rules. I don't like them. I don't like them. I don't think that they should be an obvious sign of disrespect or insensitivity. I think there's other ways to address that problem. Do you want to wear a black face of Halloween? Is that what this is about?

Okay, yes. If I can't be Beyonce, I'm not going. I think this is the, problem with it and like I actually 100% agree with you if it wasn't for like the whole like yeah you'll wear all this stuff but other than that you would never fucking talk to us other than that you would never want to be us in any other way except for these pants and with any and outlaw it's like a whole group of people screaming this song when otherwise you don't give a fuck about Native Americans you know what I'm saying I think what's happening now is actually a sign of

something positive which is sort of a reassessment of who is actually responsible for or participating in systemic racism in this entire country for a long time. Just the South in general was viewed as racist. But now there's a more mature understanding of, wait a minute. When we look at the South, we're looking at a bunch of poor people who don't have power. It doesn't really matter what color they are.

There are some people who have power and racism. It serves their purposes. But now that there's a more mature understanding of this, Southern shit isn't viewed. as bad. So now it was always poor but it was poor and bad and racist but now it's like well wait just like being

Southern isn't racist so it's okay so now the whole rich kids wanting it to look like poor kids you're seeing more southern fashions as it were. This is admittedly anecdotal but like we we do shows all over the country and a lot of times when we're in places like

San Francisco or Portland or wherever we'll talk to people still all the time the next time we go to Portland I'll have a conversation like this, I guarantee it was somebody that basically comes down to them saying, I thought everybody that sounded

like you sound was a fucking dip shit based. I have people literally ask me and my line like, how did you get to college? Like, and they mean it. And so it's still, I guess it has overall gotten better in that regard, but what I'm

saying is like we our fans are like, you know, progressive people and stuff who are on board with the whole thing when they show up and sometimes and not most of them no but like it still happens all the time we have an interaction that amounts to

someone saying I can't believe some people like you three came out of a place as backwards and racist and all this shit as as the deep south you know so like I'm so grateful for y'all too thank you for what you're doing you know

when I saw you on Bill Maher when I saw I saw Jason Isbell on Trevor Noah. I was like, thank God to hear somebody with an accent that talks like people from where I come from saying these words with this disposition, with this elegance, with true thought and feelings and perspective and able to articulate it. And I'm just like, God, please keep going. Well, God damn now you are making me blush. Thank you. Well, it's true. It does matter a lot.

Comedy is the way. You get away with seeing a lot of shit. Not for nothing. in that particular interview you just referenced with Isbel, he was fucking funny on that. Like, sometimes he is, but he cracked me up as a committee. On purpose. He's funny on purpose.

Yeah, he's a funny dude, yeah. Matter of fact, people's Twitter is Twitter's hilarious. We jokingly told him, I did drunk, that he could do time on this show. He said, no, but I might come. Anyway, we need to check in us if he's coming. Yeah, yeah. I think it's true that representation matters.

Like, that's like a corny phrase that's been, you know, kind of uttered by these, like, feel-good, crunchy people a lot, but I don't think it's a lie at all. I mean, going back to the thing we were talking about with women, artists and musicians and no doubt being a revelation to me. I was 14 or whatever age.

I was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. How did she do it? And it's like, oh, there's women like her. I just hadn't heard of them yet. Well, and that's not, and it's not what we're trying to do exactly, but, like, Foxworthy was that for Southern comedians on the different, like, not the going on and articulate and something ago, I've never heard of Southern to say this on TV,

but, like, comedy back in the day was for, New Yorkers. You know what I mean? Or people from these cities or whatever. Southern people, we sang country music and we,

you know, there was Jerry Clower, but that's a completely different thing. Yeah. And then Foxworthy goes up and everybody's gone on him the Southern Seinfeld or whatever.

And then just a gaggle of folks were just like, well, fuck, we could do that. And, uh, I mean,

you, you don't know any of them because the South is just now becoming cool, but like some of the funniest motherfuckers on earth. I talk about all the time. How, just how funny regular people are is one.

of my favorite things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like some mechanic who bust your ass. Oh, yeah. Poverty chisels a lot of character in people. You know, poverty and oppression chisels character. We were, uh, I did a, uh, not for nothing. That's why there's a shit ton of great black and Jewish comedians.

That's not a coincidence. I agree. Mike Racine, who's a, who's a New Jersey comedian that we know from when Corey and I lived in New York, he talked about how all his construction and furniture moving jobs were funnier than the show would be at that night. You got to do something to not think about what you're actually doing. You also don't sense to yourself. We were talking earlier about like women in music and comedy and that whole thing in comedy of like

were women funny and all this and like and I was thinking like, you know, not, you know, fuck female comedians like my sister, mama and there's the sound like right there. My sister, mama and mamma are all fucking hilarious in like different ways, by the way, but they're funny as shit. My mom's literally the funniest person I know. Like, not like, you know, going on stuff. My dad is a great storyteller and can make a group of people left. My mom is the most one-line, like I'll say something going to the whole thing,

and then mom will just send me a three-word text back in the line. Because she knows she's only got one shot. Right, exactly. And God damn it, she fucking kills me. So, like, are women funny? Yes, motherfucker, just, we ain't let them on TV be funny. Especially southern women. Mammaud Dean, Dene, I think about her all the time.

My grandmother, Geraldine, or Mammauddin, as we said, because Redneck kids hate work. That was my joke on stage. She tried to slap a police officer because he would not let her slap a man yelling at the kid who wrecked in her front yard one time and watching her cussed him out. And then she swung at a cop and got away with it because she was old and a woman in the South. But also because she was so goddamn funny. The dude was cracking up while she was swinging on him because she was just so funny. I'm just trying to think about the chain of ethics here.

So a kid hit her gate. He didn't hit the gate. He wrecked in her yard. And some other person is yelling at that kid. His dad shows up instead of... And your mom wants to punch the kid's dad with grandma. So the kid's dad shows up. But then ends up hitting a...

It's like 48 hours, I was that. Okay. He's the dude. Well, sure. Yeah. Well, here's what the dude did wrong. He showed up and he didn't say, are you okay? She's standing outside.

He didn't say, are you okay? He didn't say, are you hurt. He said, how fucking fast were you going? I don't know, it's like I'm thinking about her, so I'm not cussing right now. But he was like, how fucking fast are you going? He's yelling at the kid instead of checking on him. That pisses her off. So she crumbs across the yard, screaming at him,

you didn't even check on that boy. I'll pop you right in your damn face. She's telling this story, and when she says is, before I could get to him to slap his damn face off, that damn cop got in my way. So I tried to slap his damn face off. And my dad, who was there, tells the story, and says, then she tried to swing at the cop and told him to get the fuck off her property

without using the word fuck. And the dude was laughing at her because she was so funny and how she was dressing everybody down like telling the guy, you ain't no kind of nothing. You think because you bought him this damn car that you own him

just because he's your son, I'll teach you a lesson. You want me to smack you? You think you're going to smack him? That would have been viral on YouTube so fast. My God. So viral. When my granny passed away a couple years ago,

I was over at her house going through the shit or whatever and her next door neighbor, who I'd known my entire life, came out and we were talking. and she told me the story by my grandma that my granny was she was she could be funny but most of the time for her she was not meaning to be funny she would just say the most absurd things like for instance one time she was very convinced in telling me that i was watching a braves game and uh hulio franco was on first base and i said i was explaining her i was like man he's Julio franco he's like he's getting near 50 isn't that crazy that he can play first base in the major leagues at 50 and she goes well honey i mean he doesn't know how old he is I go, what? And she posited the theory that she goes,

she goes, she goes, well, you know, she goes, you know, well, they don't give black people birth certificates. And the thing is, she wasn't being a bitch. When she was born in 1920, that was the case for a lot of people. But she would just say these, like, she just said whatever. And it was always hilarious because she was just old my whole life. This once. So she tells me, May tells me this story.

One time my papal was mow in the yard and my granny came out on the porch. porch, apron or whatever. Don't she run over my damn rose bushes like you all, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, he's mowing the yard, not paying attention. He was an asshole. So, you know, great papal. And he runs over her rose bushes. And my neighbor, Mason, she was watching this all time.

My grandmother, who I didn't know, possessed any of this strength, went out of the house, ripped the gutter off of the side of the wall, and then knocked my papal smooth out over the lawnmower with it. and he's just laying and May's just like Edna good Lord and she goes Bet you don't run with them damn bushes no more

I saw my mama go after the one time we hired somebody to mow our grass and I can't remember why but there was this old pitiful old man and he ran over her bottle brush bush and down in Florida there's like fluffy red things

oh my God she was so mean to this old man it was so out of character that must be a real problem like this I couldn't believe it she goes no I saw it I saw him

Why would So I'm central inland. Okay. You know, pig old cow padded. Does everybody sound like you from there? A lot of people do. Yeah, and that is talking about misconceptions and people not understanding. Florida is a complicated place.

We were in St. Louis last weekend. This lady in St. Louis came up to us and introduced herself and said she was from Florida. And she immediately goes, she, I said, where are you from? I'm from Florida. That's not the South. And I was like, hold on now. It is to Orlando. Exactly. And then it's like Cuba.

And she was, and that, like, she was from like, you know, Southern Florida. But I was like, no, I mean, we've fucking been to Florida. Like, you can kiss my head. Yeah, you know, John Anderson is from Florida. There's a lot. Lennar, Scanner-Skinnered almond brothers. Tom Petty, yeah. Are you south of Jacksonville?

Yes. See, I'll be honest. And I got people in Jacksonville. I, you know, we know about this shit, but I thought Jacksonville's about where it stopped. You're saying, like Orlando. Orlando is like the cutoff. If you're above Orlando. Yeah, and even like, I would say even around, they're still pockets.

Because all that motorcycle shaped Daytona. That Everglade, you know, where Disney World sits now was the very first ranch in America. It was 35,000 acres. The term Cracker comes from cowboys cracking their whip. I'm a Cracker. If you were like culturally Florida, native Florida, you got referred to as a Cracker. I'm straight Cracker. That's what I, you know, it's like, it comes from that culture.

Yeah, Florida Cracker. Boys wore cowboy hats to. my high school, like in the 80s, 90s. Like that was, you know, still gun racks in the trucks. And we had, there was land. There was cattle that got worked. Everybody went fishing. Everybody hunted.

We ate what we caught. It grew gardens. Like, it was our, it's a very, it's a rural culture and a rural area that's not been developed for, like, New Jersey retirees. One of my favorite things in the world is to hear someone from a rural area say rural. Rural. I can't hardly. We can't do it.

It's so hoarse. It's so whole. I can't pronounce it. I can't say war. You can say tangential all that, but you can't say world. That's it. Let's wrap this up. Okay.

Yeah. Thank you guys. Thank you all so much for joining us. Do y'all got, what do you all got? Tell us what you've got going on, Elizabeth, how people can find you. By the way, let me say this. We're wrapping this up, but we would love to do it again very soon because we haven't even scratched the surface, in my opinion.

But we do have shows to go to and try to entertain you. you in some way. I'm super down. I'm excited to see you guys play here in Nashville tonight. Thank you for having me. I don't know. What do I do? Tyler, I'm a, I have to make records and I'm on the radio. I know what you're doing. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Okay, well, I tour and I don't know when this will air, but I tour around the country. Very soon, yeah. Okay, very, very soon. Okay, very soon. I'll be at 38 songwriters festival. Elizabeth dash cook is my website.com. I'll be on a tour with Chris Shifflett and Kendall Marvel. That's like a month long that starts in Seattle.

It goes all over. It goes all over. I'm going in to make a new record in L.A. in a few weeks, but that hasn't really been out of the bag yet. I don't know when it's coming out. And then I'm a DJ on Sirius XM, Outlaw Country, weekdays, Channel 60, noon to Four East Coast. You can record here in Nashville?

Do what now? The series studio here in Nashville is that we do? I do it at my house. I have a roaming gear just like y'all. I don't know. I could go to the studios down in, you know, downtown on the. lower broadway but fuck bad i can't stand going down there so i do it at my house and when i'm on tour election right i do it in hotel election day yeah election day we're at those serious studios election day Tyler

that was a fun day right oh my god we did a we did a show for serious we did a political comedy show for serious on election day at the studio in Nashville and like but we wrapped up you know way before fucking what one in the morning before everybody figured it out so like we left we like still Yeah, but... Corey knew, though. Corey did not. I got to give it up to Corey. Corey was...

And I was getting shit. Like, people were calling in and I was like, you're acting like I'm fucking saying I'm glad this is about to happen. I'm not glad. I'm just telling you straight up what's going to happen.

People don't like the truth. Which was that we were going to sweet the house and not move in the Senate and lose in the Senate. I'm talking about the election before that. Oh, oh, you were going to say... Okay, sorry. I was confused. Yeah, I've been saying it 10 goddamn years, you know,

but I did. And it was just, it was a... And then I found out driving home. and I was like, well, fucking, I bet them people were like, he was right, and I still hate him. Yeah, that was a shitty drive home for sure. Tyler, tell us, buddy. What's going on? Tell us where people can find, how they can find you and everything.

Well, you can follow me on social media if you want to, but you don't have to just because you like something that I do. Doesn't mean you have to like everything I do. Give it a weak trial. I'm with Tyler. Everything's not going to be for you, but it's great. There'll probably be something for you in a week period, you know, something crazy. you know, some crazy country song you never heard, or me being the meanest person you've seen that day. Or you trashing their favorite band that they beloved so much.

Sometimes it has to happen. Yeah, I just rap this year's Your Favorite Band Sucks Content, and I'm about to finish research on season two of the other podcast, Cocaine and Rhinestones, The History of Country Music. I don't know when that's going to come out because I'll have to write it, but most of it happens in this research and taking notes, period. The writing is just sort of a formality. Can you tell us anything about it?

I mean, I've been telling people to expect to hear a lot about George Jones. It's going to be a lot more going on than that. But, yeah, I mean, a lot of it's very relevant to what we talked about today. I would say anyone who was interested in this conversation would definitely be interested in that. Especially because I'm going to think about what I say beforehand. And we do have a lot of crossover fans because we have unofficially plugged your podcast a lot on here just from being huge fans. I appreciate that. First time I mean, you actually talked.

I said, man, that's such, that's the perfect road trip podcast. And that's all we're doing. and you said, well, I literally went into it, thinking I want to make something that people want to listen to on the road. Yeah, I used to be a touring musician. I got in a lot of trouble on tour. Did you? Maybe if I had something that would have, you know,

some two-hour episode of something that was real interesting and I was looking forward to hearing that instead of whatever else might happen and I just roll the dice. Sure. You know, might not have woken up in jail a couple times. And you, so I saw this on Twitter the other day, and I'm going to fuck this up, but I saw you were comparing the length of the liner notes from your

longest episode. Oh, no, no, no, not the liner notes. My note file. Your note file. Yeah, so the longest episode of the first season of Cocaine and Rhinestones was the one on Wynonna Judd. Yeah, which is fucking unbelievable. Please go listen to that right now. Let that be your first one that you listen to it, in my opinion. It's a good entry point, yeah. It's great. Yeah, so that was the longest script. And then I still have my note file for it, and you can just look and see how many words it was. About 4,000 words. And then I went and looked

at my note file for George Jones right now. now and it's 24,000 words. So it's six times as much as the longest thing that happened in the first season. And that's just one thing. And there are like 40 people that I'm trying to, in a meaningful way, cover. Sure. So, yeah, it's going to be very complicated. You said it was not an argument, but like, I guess, a debate.

My wife, you tweeted about that, but you didn't say who it was the other day. Yeah. And we were debating it if it was Dolly or George Jones. Those are the two that's got to be that long. I can always tell because whoever I'm getting the most like trivia facts from when Tyler and I are like shooting the shit is who he's researching. So I knew George Jones was coming, even though he hadn't officially told me. Yeah, I feel bad for anyone who brings up anything remotely related to George Jones around me right now

because I know everything that happened to him. It's not. I'm upset that we don't have another hour, but of course we're going to be able to hear that on season two of this I mean probably my favorite podcast of all time oh thank you I really appreciate that sign it's fantastic Elizabeth Cook on serious

XM can I ask one more question no go ahead I'm dude I'm just doing this I don't go fuck when the tour bus came out was you like a little bit like oh man the time of this is what

I will tell you I was already when that show got announced I definitely did have a oh fuck my face moment you know where I was just like oh this guy's way more famous then he's good

he's got way more people pay attention and it's a fucking cartoon it's Mike Judge making a cart tune you may not have known it at the time

but he definitely went for like scandal more than just straight and it was the little snippets and caveats it wasn't like in my opinion he tried to be broader

this is just me and I'm stupid I think that it only helps honestly because I think your podcast is a good companion piece too I don't think it's something

that's going to bury I think there's going to be plenty of people go hey it already didn't and he's moved on to like funk or something now. Yeah, but I was like, look, if you like Tales from the Tour, but I was fucking go listen to Cocaine and Rhinestone.

I was going to bring this up about Malcolm Gladwell earlier too, is with Malcolm Gladwell. How do you feel about Malcolm? We're not talking about. We're not talking about a person who actually cares about what he's talking about. We're talking about a person who has to make something interesting this week and something else interesting next week and something else interesting the week after that.

They don't have time to get inside of the world that they're going to tell us about. You know, it's like expecting a try. travel show. It's like expecting every travel show to be Anthony Bourdain. It's not not date line. You're not going to get a person who actually cares about what he's saying. He just wants to tell you a good story because it's content

because that's his job. You know, so it gets into the same thing when you're talking about I mean, obviously if we're going to turn something into a cartoon, we will be doing that in more ways than one. Sure. And so you don't like tells from the door of us. Historically, I have had a big problem with

things like that. All right, guys. I love ending on just straightforward cynicism, baby. That is fantastic. So Tyler at Mayhan Co. Elizabeth Cook. Check out Elizabeth on Sirius XM Channel 60. Yeah, and I'm on Instagram all the fucking time. She's on Instagram.

She's on Instagram. Buy all her goddamn albums. They're fantastic. Go see her whenever she's out there. Check out your band sucks and cocaine and rhinestones. And also come see us on tour. Wellredcomedy.com. Love y'all.

and skew Give us a skew There you go All right, thank you guys Corey, you do it I'll fuck it up Do what? Thank you all for listening

To the well-read show We'd love to stick around longer But we got to go Tune in next week If you got nothing to do Thank you God bless you good night And skew Your business brings pressure

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