wellRED podcast - Life, Death and Lions (with Joel Walkowski) <with Some Up Top Yakov Smirnoff Discussion!>

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

traeCrowder.com for tix to Trae&rsquo;s shows&nbsp; DrewMorganComedy.com to see what Drew&rsquo;s on about&nbsp; CoreyWritesForYou.com to become one of the THOUSANDS of people who have made Corey&rsquo;s newsletter a constant in the top 25 (and even the top 5 and top 2! On Substack&rsquo;s funniest list! Alright y'all this week Cho is mining for family life gold in the rich and verdant hills of Branson, MO (so he's eating pancakes by a WonderWorks), but luckily for y'all Trae and Drew are joined by the lovely and hilarious Joel Walkowski to talk about death, God, booze, dads, Detroit, and so much more.&nbsp; CHECK OUT JOEL'S NEW BOOK "HONOLULU BLUES", AVAILABLE TODAY WHEREVER BOOKS ARE SOLD!&nbsp; Check out&nbsp;https://www.squarespace.com/WellRED to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code WellRED

Well, here we are. Well, Red Nation, no show this week. It's me and Drew. We will be joined by a lovely guest a little later. An IRL friend of ours, but a very funny guy comedian from Michigan, I believe, lives in New York. He's got a book out. You'll learn more about him later. His name's Joel Wachowski. But Drew, Corey's not here because he's on a family vacation. Apparently in Branson. You ever been to Branson? I have not. I've always been curious. Me too, because I think it's like, isn't it like, oh, Ozarks, Gatlinburg. Yeah, and then they'll say like, well, the difference is it's like, it's more like family stuff. And I'm like, that's what

Gallenberg is very, very, very much family stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That like I heard you say that way worse to me. It's like, like if it's, what I mean like little kid stuff in Brantley? I think people who haven't really been to Gallenberg much just know about like the moonshine place.

I was about saying like Johnny Cash, the boy named Sue song and stuff. I think it's like, yeah, like he'll be shit or something, which I mean, it is also hillbilly shit, but it's family friendly hillbilly shit. Right. Anyway, that's like the only thing. But yeah, and then I know that someone that I am, I won't see obsessed with, but like way

more intrigued by than most people, I think. And I've gotten to meet him. The Russian, but he's not really Russian comedian. Hold on. What? Yakov-Smirinov? Well, he is. Maybe I'm wrong.

Isn't he from the former USSR? Oh, right. But, you know, at the time he lived there and left there, that was, it wasn't called Russia. It was a USSR. It was called the Soviet Union. Yes, but that was the equivalent of Russia, right? I don't think so. Yes and no.

Right. And I could be wrong. He might be from the motherland. He might be from fucking St. Petersburg. But I think he might be from, the equivalent would be like if the United States broke up, and Maine became its own country but then five countries in the West all became California

if you used to be part of the United States in Maine you didn't live in California yeah right he from apparently I guess well he was at least born in interestingly enough what is now Ukraine I thought it was Ukraine yeah I didn't want to say that

because I feel like a lot of people are conflating you know what I mean Anyway, Yakov Smyrnoff intrigues me to know in. I've got to meet him at Zanis. I think he was very curious about what Zanis had going on there, because as you know, Zanis has sort of broken a lot of and helped make a lot of clean comedians. Oh, yeah, right.

And Yacov is, he kind of reminds me of Regan and that when you hear him talk about it, like, it's not a moral thing for him. it's like genuinely an artistic choice in terms of like the audience I am engaging with is broader if I don't cuss or talk about sex does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, I think that's.

Like someone saying I want to be a pop star not because I hate rap, but because like it's what I'm drawn to or whatever. Yeah. Anyway, that's like, I've talked to him a little and I know what his backstory is with like why he chose Branson like what he's doing there.

He focuses almost exclusively on relationship material because just like what I said about being clean, he thinks that's the broadest form of like you can reach the most people. Like that's the topic that's most universal. And it's interesting to me when someone like goes full board the other way. For me being a young comedian especially, it was like, well, I want to do something new. This guy's like, I want to do something that's the oldest version

of this but do it the best and he's doing it in branson anyway i got a fun of tangent that's all i know i've done i did his podcast uh because he he that the blue room in springfield missouri it's a club there which it got sold but it's still there i think maybe helium bought it or one of the chains bought it i think but i haven't been back since but either i mean i will either way he he'll drive up there uh and interview like the headliners for his podcast that he has and uh so i did his podcast I sung, you know, nice guy. I liked him. He, but yeah, he's for people that don't know, but he was part of the 80s comedy boom.

He was huge in the 80s. He was this like sort of, you know, Russia, Soviet Union transplant, like kind of, you know, I don't know if caricature is fair, but, you know, he definitely, like, I've got on his Wikipedia page, so he had a catchphrase and all that. His catchphrase, do you remember or know what his catchphrase was? I'd have forgotten. It is a, what the country, right? So it was like, uh, didn't they put him in a commercial with that or steal it, maybe?

He had a bunch of commercials, apparently, but it was like, uh, long johns. Chicken at the fish place. No, that was, I love this country and they stole it from. I guess I don't even know what this is. There was a product at the time called New Freedom. Uh, it looks like it was like from Cotex or something. I don't know. But anyway, he had.

a line says, I was recently in supermarket and saw something called New Freedom. Freedom in a box. What a country, you know. What, uh, put, it had like a hot dog prop or something or I guess and said in Russia, we don't eat this part of dog. So, but also I didn't know this. It's so funny that he's now like exclusively I do conversation about how men and women are different. I didn't know this This is interesting to me Because just two days ago

So Mark sent us in our group chat That video of that Russian soldier Losing Control of a jury-rigged Anti-Aircraft machine gun Like mini-gun And he like it whipped him around Like helicopter Looney Tune style And Mark sent that to us

And it like it whipped him around And then sort of propelled him off Into the air a little bit And I said in Russia gun gun fighters you right and then I said sorry I apologize I just couldn't help it but that's a very

that's like a stereotypical joke format structure whatever gunfighter you that is known apparently as the Russian reversal and Yaakov Smyranov is credited with inventing slash popularizing the Russian

reversal his lines at the he had beer commercials where he would say in Russia, party find you instead of you have to find the party. And, you know, I guess that was one of his things he did in the Russian reversal. He invented that. So, you know, that is a lasting cultural impression.

I did know that. I'm genuinely, let's said, I'm not really obsessed with him. But I find him so intriguing because it's kind of like Foxworthy in a way where people who don't know the lore it's like very easy to kind of dismiss that as like this flash in the pan product of a different time and like yeah part of his career

was but he has had lasting impact he is still doing it he has fans he's a very deep guy I just I don't know I don't know why I'm just people like that intrigued me there's like him there's dudes like him and the dudes like Stuart who have a very different you know

cultural fate that I'm just sort of obsessed with right either forgotten, unfortunately, or in my mind, kind of misremembered, kind of like put into this tiny box that represents such a small portion of what they did. I did know he invented the Russian reversal, though. I mean, that's cool. That is cool. Here's a fun. When he said, I only make fun of Cleveland because all Americans make fun of Cleveland. Every country has one city that everybody makes fun of. For example, in Russia, we used to always make fun of Cleveland. Pretty good.

That's solid. Yeah. Well, I've tangented us enough. I've never been to Branson. I hope Corey goes, Yonkoff has a club there, which is why he just came up for me too. He's not just that he works there.

No, he owns an entire... Apparently, he started that in 1990. I knew he had done that, and I figured, you know, honestly, in my head,

I was like, he was big in the 80s. It flamed out. And finally, he semi-retired to Branson. But he went to Branson in 1993. Yeah. And has been doing it.

that there ever since. It was a one good lick move, dude. It was a fuck L.A. I can't do what I'm doing anymore. How can I? And then also how can I control everything? You know what I mean? It's probably like,

it's honestly probably the most extreme anti-communist move. Like leaving Russian getting out and it's like, listen, there I had to give the government all my money. Here I got to give it to fucking the door. I'm not getting the sales. Like, no, I want it all.

If they're coming to see Yaakov, Yaakov gets the money. Right. He has a PhD in psychology from Pepperdine University. Does not surprise me. Wild. Wild stuff. By the way, another tangent here. And I think maybe I brought this up on here before

because this blew my mind so much when I found this out. So Pepperdine is out here, like right off the Pacific Coast Highway, it overlooks the ocean. It's a beautiful campus on stuff. Pretty good basketball school. Did you know that's a church of Christ's college? Oh, yeah. And it's like wildly, weirdly conservative.

That blew my mind when I found that out. The only reason I knew is I wanted to go there because the basketball school was good. And when I was like, I was in fucking Malibu and shit. And it's in Malibu and like, you know, comedy was already on my mind. I was like, I'm going to go. And then like I looked into it and I was like, this is worse than Carson Newman. Fuck that. Yeah, that's, I just, that's so, I don't know.

That kind of blew my mind when I found that out. Like, I don't know. But in my mind, too. I just happened to find out earlier than you. Yeah, but like they, you mean, so you actually looked into it. They make them do church stuff. Mine, I mean, they did then, according to their pamphlet, but you know how that is. Some of that stuff's for parents, too.

Like, are they making them kids do church stuff or are they trying to get rich kids' parents to send their kids there? I don't know. Right. Yeah. I don't know either. Because Marrival College definitely promotes itself or used to as being more Presbyterian than it was when I went there. So it's a Presbyterian. Did you do any Presbyterian stuff there?

No. Like there were things that were included. Like some of the things you had to do, I'm trying to think of what it is. Like, all right, we got this orientation, freshman orientation. The first part of it is a meeting where all the freshmen are going to be in here. There will be a prayer and a speech by the lady pastor of the college. you know it was about service and like giving back not like the gays

well at least there's that b yu i wouldn't get there b yu do they now like in the nil era because they just had the number one overall NBA draft pick he's not Mormon right he's a black kid like i don't know they usually are man that's what i was wondering was like have they loosened that up in like the nil era because you know like being mormons are good at basketball basketball, but not like...

I don't know if they ever required you to be Mormon, but it's that they require you to abide by their rules. So while he was there, he at least was pretending to not like... You have sex and stuff? I think you can have Coca-Cola, but not coffee, which I don't understand how they got around that. Yeah, I said sex,

and it's like you heard caffeine, which is funny to me, but yeah, they... No, I know that, but sex is the one that always talks about, but caffeine to me is the weirder one. Oh, for sure.

Yeah, I've recently read, and I've no idea, if it's true, but that they had finally, for whatever reason, loosened up on the caffeine thing. I think so, too, because isn't that like a thing with those Mormon-wife TV shows? Is that they drink soda all damn day? I guess they could be drinking root beer type shit, aka caffeine-free for those of you who don't venture into the root beers.

Yeah, I can't find anything on here about, it says he's born in Boston, grew up in Brockton, Massachusetts, and went to these high-level prep schools in Napa, California, but then ended his high-level prep school basketball career at an academy in Utah, and then went from there to BYU, I guess. But I just don't know why. I mean, in the NIL era, I do,

but a guy like that can get money from anywhere. Money, dude. God, they got so much money. They got scary amounts of money. Right. So there's like a, I'm sure you, I know you know this. We've probably talked about shows derived from books where they address this.

The expanse, I think, is one of them. A common thing in post-apocalyptic literature is that like the Mormons are still ever-present and powerful. Yes, the expanse has that, yes. Because A, they got a shit ton of money and then B, part of their prophecy or whatever has to do with outer space. Yeah, I thought that was a really cool aspect of the expanse shows. It's not just the expanse.

Yeah. But in the expanse, it's like in the near-ish, but still relatively far out human future. We're like colonizing space for the first time, and the Mormons are building a generational ship to go to that Jesus planet that they believe in. Like every one of them on Earth is going to get on a spaceship and go to the Jesus planet.

And I thought, yeah, I mean, if we could, if ships like that were a thing that could exist, I mean, why wouldn't they do that unless, you know, they don't really believe it and they are super rich here and they got all kinds of land and businesses and shit on earth, so why fuck with outer space? But if they were like true believers, though, you'd get in a ship and try to go there.

I feel like if you actually... Yeah, the only counter-argument I could see that allows you to remain to be a believer would be like, well, no, like, that's flying too close to the similar. Yeah, that's only for the afterlife, right? You're only supposed to do it. Like, the science exists to make clones. I don't think we should do that.

Right, it's playing God. Yes. I suppose that is fair enough. But like Marcus Freeman at Notre Dame, he did convert to Catholicism. But like, do you, is that you have to? You either have to be a Catholic or you've got to convert to Catholicism to either at least coached there. Probably not play there. But I know for a fact, he converted to Catholicism.

But was that just a like, this is how serious I am about this shit? Did he convert to Catholicism like right as they hired him? I mean, I think so. That's wild to me. Because to me, if I'm on the other side of that and I'm like, no, we need to Catholic and they were like, oh, he converted. I'd be like, that is worse. That feels so wishy-washy. Yeah. Shortly after becoming head coach, Freeman made his profession of faith, was confirmed and received his first Holy Communion at the university. Well, there I could see the money people

buying it. They're like, yeah, we brought him here. And once you see how Catholic we are and how much it hits, he converted. Whereas like, hey, man, you got a converter, ain't giving you this money. you don't believe in it at all he even reinstated an old but long defunct Notre Dame tradition of the entire rape being a ball boy attending

yeah the Sandusky doctrine but of the entire team attending mass together at the Notre Dame Basilica before that's that evangelical that was for every home game that's that black evangelical

that was still in there or then the Catholics were like, Jesus, these new converts are always like this. Apparently that's like a huge problem inside these sort of American right now. J.D. Vance is the most famous recent Catholic convert.

Wrote a whole book about it. And apparently a lot of like left-leaning Catholics are like, this always happens. Like someone comes in because they think that this is going to be like this right-wing, super-duper awesome culture

that like shuts down women or whatever. it's not. They get mad about it. And then they start writing the Pope with all these obscure references to these writings from priests that have been, you know, that no one's talked about in 30 years and they're 80 years old. And we,

the Catholics that have been doing this our whole lives and were born into it, eighth generation Catholics, they're like, yeah, no, what about how Jesus said the opposite of that? Now, obviously these left-leaning Catholics are pulling what matter to them.

And the right-leaning Catholics are pulling what matter to them. But it is funny when someone's like, nah, Pope, head guy of the church. What you said, and Jesus also said isn't true, because this guy no one's talked about in 400 years, he said black people should be our slaves. Yeah, I mean, all throughout Francis's tenure, there was a ton of just, I don't know if it was only in America, but definitely a lot in America of American Catholics, being like, fucking, this Pope don't know shit.

he's woke and gay and stuff which is pretty wild to maybe. Yeah, Catholicist. So apparently Marcus Freeman, his wife, who he's been with for quite some time, is a spaghetti woman. She's a white Italian-American cradle Catholic. And they have,

yeah, an Italian-American cradle Catholic lady that he's been with for a long time. And they have six kids together. And their kids' names are Vinny, Gino, Nico, Rocco, Capri, and Sienna. So I mean, he seems to be walking the walk about as much as you can, I guess. Yeah, dude. He sure is.

Him and the fat quarterback. Not fat, but fat-faced. The Bill of Rivers? Yeah, Rivers. Yeah. Yeah, but he's a quiverful or whatever, ain't he? Which isn't that a, aren't they evangelical offshoot? Quiverful?

Riverful is, but I thought Rivers was Catholic. Oh, you know what? I think you're right, actually. In my head, I was the evangelical version of doing it. Yeah, right. Which is, like, the idea that, like, not busting in her all the time. If it's your wife, it's not what God wanted. Let's, like, let God tell you how many kids you're going to have.

Don't do anything to change it. Yeah. Whether it be because, like, condoms are a sin or just, like, the idea that, like, planning it is a sin, which is even crazy. My high school girlfriend who, you know, was somewhat recurring character on the show. She hasn't come up in a long time. B-O-S? B-A-Y-A-Yet. Well, yeah.

I just find. I hear it bag-a-uh, you know. Yeah, bag-a. Baga. Baga, bag of shit, Amber. But anyway, God bless her. That's just what Ma Ma called her. She's a sweet gal.

But not the sharpest tool in the shed. But from Tennessee, dude. He actually has come up recently. On here? No, in the thread. No, you remember? He was like, yes. Oh, yes.

Yeah, yes, that is true. Yeah, a guy. Mark says a screenshot of a Reddit post where a guy was asking for advice because he had just found out that his girlfriend was like legally considered mentally handicapped or whatever. She was under the, he didn't know. He didn't know. Yeah.

She was under the cutoff for, I think it's 70 IQ or whatever is the cut. I'm basing that on Forrest Gump. I'm pretty sure. But whatever the cutoff is for being considered mentally handicapped, he didn't know his girlfriend was. He just found out. He didn't know what to do about. it. And I said, this guy's dating my high school girlfriend. But she, uh, she was from, they're from

Salina. There's a Catholic church in Salina and it's a one room church. It's tiny, dude. There's probably more than 25, I don't know, maybe 40 people that go there, two or three families, but her family is one of them. Her family is Catholic. She's Catholic. And they, uh, like, they don't believe in birth control. She had, when I dated her in high school, she had five brothers and sisters. Wouldn't surprise me if her mom squads out even more after that. And then she had babies right after we broke up. So, you know, about that go forth and multiply life, which just never was my thing.

You know, I'd prefer to not have a ton of babies if I could help it. No, I'd like to stay home and divide. Yes, absolutely. That's, mm-hmm. I mean, I- I have to kids you do, you know. which considering how low your number is, you know, I had to work at that.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, I'll tell you one thing you don't have to work at, Drew. Building a website, no, because this week's sponsor Squarespace can work at it for you, make it easier on a man. This podcast, this episode of this podcast, is brought to you once again by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed on the internet, whether you're just now starting out

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well read well r e d to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain with square space all right how you doing spiritually drew you getting in touch with the lord or anything anymore i'm not going i looked at the clock wrong i was thinking if i do this ad now our guest will be here when i get done but that is my fault he'll be here shortly and then we'll talk about what he's got going on but first you think you're going to hell you're fearing death you're feeling good about the end of all things like you got three minutes where he shows up you want to encapsulate all that in roughly three minutes what's the point sure uh yeah i feel like when i hear my son laugh uh and i am able to be present and not like stressed or whatever else it's going on and actually feel how that

makes me feel it does feel uh if not divine um certainly bigger than our finite time on earth and the idea that like, you know, he came for me and then hopefully, or if he wants to, he'll have kids as long as we don't blow this whole planet up. Yeah, I think I have been pondering that stuff lately. I haven't been thinking much about the Lord, as it were, and I'm certainly not trying to think about hell at all. The Baptists are boycotting Andy's play in rugby,

which is funny because it's like, oh, y'all weren't going to go to the play? Oh, no. Okay. Is rugby the Utopia Place it is are they still so is it like

hippie dipion shit in modern day or is it just like it's not hippie it's kind of like gay nerds and some people are just nerds and some people are just gay but

sure yeah and then there's definitely one Trump family there who moved here from Michigan because Brian used to work with the lady and the guy's a cop and

buddy they are not thrilled with everything going on about there yeah yeah but anyway I actually am thinking a lot more about spirituality. I guess that's the word for it.

I feel like all the terms we have for it semantically are lame. What do you think is your be called? It just feels, I don't know, but it just feels like I just haven't yet heard a language that captures how I feel and doesn't make me cringe. Does that make sense? Like I've heard people say things where I'm like, man, I really identify with that. And then I hear myself saying it to someone else. I'm like, I sound like a fucking idiot. This isn't quite what I mean.

I sound stupid and lame But it does kind of go back to my core belief about that Since you said let's get into it We have three minutes. We still have two left. I do believe in divine things. Things bigger than us. God, I guess, is the word. Pete Holmes, of all people.

He gets on my nerves, but he has this thing that he stole from someone. He openly says, you know, I got this from some guy. But God is the blanket we throw on the mystery. And I think that's fair. I think of it like, just because ants don't understand how geometry and calculus works, doesn't mean that those things aren't true.

And it also doesn't mean that they're not engaging in those very true types of math when they're making their underground. You know, have you seen those underground? Yeah. I'll answer wild. And they're like this mound that these, Jesus Christ, this mound that these ants built could sustain thousands upon thousands of pounds. Have you seen like the National Geographic stuff of that?

I don't, I mean, that specifically, I've seen a lot of ant stuff. The point I'm getting at is like, that to me is analogous to, like, humans and divine things, which is that we can engage it. I hate everyone. Is that important, do you think? No, it's not important. It would take me too long to explain it. That's for Andy.

It's on my computer. I don't believe in God anymore. After that happened twice. All I was trying to say is, like, I think it's a now. analogous, that that is a good analogy to me, that the answer, completely unable to discuss calculus, but they engage in it. They do it. Yeah. Every day. That to me is like how I feel about spiritualism or divinity. We are categorically unable to actually understand it. We should talk about it with each other, how we feel. I do think we should do that, but we aren't actually able to understand God, in my opinion, but we can experience God.

That's cool. All right. Well, to continue this lighthearted conversation is very existential. Our guest is now here. We're excited to have him. We told you he's a funny guy on and off the air. Very great New York comedian and author whose first book, Honolulu Blues, how loving a losing football team created a winning man is available today right now.

Wherever books are sold, go out there and check it out. The one and I only give it up for them, everybody, wherever you're at, listening to this. I want you to clap right now for Joel Wakowski. Hey, buddy. Yo, yo, what's up, bro? How are we doing today? I'm doing good.

I just see that smile from Drew. I feel the same way. I'm just so happy to see Drew Whitney Morgan. Buddy. Your face, I don't know. I did a flood of memories and everything, too, because I guess I haven't thought about New York in a while. It's great to see you.

You guys used to hoop it up, as the kids, I'm pretty sure, say, hooping it up. They're in the Big Apple, as they also say. You guys hoop it up in the Big Apple. I think we're two guys who fashion themselves as well adjusted and that conceit would be tested if anyone ever saw us play basketball versus each other. Yeah, well, I'll never forget, and you were there for this, Joel.

Patrick, no, he's an Eagles fan. What's Patrick Slater? Schroeder. Schroeder. When I knew that it was time for me to at least change the style of basketball that I play, he had like a breakaway and he is I'm not trying to insult me when he's not as athletic as I used to be so I was like I'm about to send this layup in across the park and I was running him down to do a chase down block and instead of even getting to any of that I just ran through him and then afterwards I had to apologize to him like for the seventh time because I just killed him on a basketball court and I explained him and I oh listen man this is not a good excuse I just want you to know I this may not sound like it makes any sense to you because I just ran over you but I just think thought I was going to get there a second before I did. I just really am not who I used to. I really just thought, oh, I'm going to be here and then I wasn't. I wasn't fast. Yeah, sorry, I followed you.

I'm not the man I thought I was. I mean, we've had that moment, Drew. I have that moment every Sunday. Right. But I just, but it's like, I wanted him to know, like, it wasn't me being like an asshole. It's me being a loser. And that feels more forgivable. Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with being a loser. That's a get out of jail free. for card for anyone like Leo both if you're listening that's a loser right there all right well thanks for being everybody you're excited so today's the day the book literally came out today so go go ahead and tell us about the book and then we'll talk about you a little bit too actually no i'm we've written books we know how it goes yeah no i'm going straight from here to my launch party

so it's it's a real special to be on with you guys be a part of this day and so my book hana lulu blues out today. I wrote a history of Detroit Lions, but it's also the history of trauma in my family. I get the overlap there. Yeah, every, every demon that you could face, I think it's pretty common for Detroiters to face all those demons. And like, I don't know, the team was given to me by my autistic father. It was a special interest. So like, they're kind of a feel, a stand in for a lot of the things you learn from a dad. So, you know, it's out today. It's getting great reviews and it's funny. It's heartbreaking. And it's probably the nicest thing ever written about Barry Sanders. I love that. That seems like that's saying something too because Barry Sanders, you know,

who doesn't love Barry Sanders came up in a random group chat two days ago. Just, you know, my old high school buddies been like, y'all ever just think about Barry Sanders. And everybody's like, yeah, all the time. All the time, dude. So it's, I, I mean, again, as soon as you say, like, I don't know, just sort of, it's about the Detroit lines, but also trauma. I just feel like I immediately, that just pops to me as a good idea because I certainly feel like I can relate to that, meaning like I get how, like, my sons, I have two sons and they're not, like, I'm a huge Tennessee vals fan and like they're not, I'm not indoctrinating

them into that, like at all because it's mostly been upsetting for me. Like there's been a lot of times with the, because especially there are, a college team and that adds to it where it's like, I'll let my whole day or a full half of my week be ruined by the outcome of a game played by 19 and 20 year olds or whatever. And I'm like, you're a grown man. Like, what are you doing? This is in sight. But it's like, you know, you can't help. Once you gets locked into you, you can't help it. But I feel like if sometimes it's just like saving them from their own trauma in various ways. But you had to go with like personal shit while also the lines were letting you down that whole time too.

But I mean, you know, they've turned it around in recent years. Yeah, but I think you're exactly right. Like, it was during the Matt Patricia era and I knew they were going to lose every time. And like I would do all these like emotional like manipulations to make sure the team wouldn't ruin my week. And I was like, huh, I think them losing improved my life. So I traced that process. And how that got built incrementally throwing in a big. part of addiction because like I'm active in the recovery space.

Sober 11 years. What up though. But I think the whole like concede is this is mindfulness for bros in their native tongue. Because a lot of times I talk about sports. I'm not really talking about sports. There's all these other themes that we get there along the way. Yeah. I mean, that's a great idea. So what's your dad. So like your dad, that was like a thing with you and your dad, the lions. Was that like your number one thing or like just one of the big things or like it was it was the only thing because my dad i mentioned he's on the autism spectrum he had three special interests banjos switch blades and the detroit lions like i'm banned from the bloomington comedy attic without ever

stepping foot in there because he would just go in the green room and give people switch blades so like and they ban you because you're not as cool as your dad yeah well it's like you're writing a club be like, hey, you might know me. I am the son of knife guy. Do you have any feature spots available? That's so great. Banjo's, I don't know. This Detroit, right? Or the Detroit area? Like, where's the banjos come from? Okay. So when I was like 18, he fell off a ladder and he shattered his wrist. And he was a master guitar. So the banjo is lighter than the guitar. So then he switched to banjo. And then he moved. to Bloomington, Indiana to study banjo making and be around the banjo makers. And like, he had a pretty tough family life. So then he assembled like a new family of other banjo makers that like we had to like see

at Christmas and stuff. Like the banjos were that involved in the family. I don't know what autistic Detroit line banjo switchblade knife dad is. And I'm sure the book gets into it. But if this were an uncle, buddy all day i'm saying what a great childhood this is now again maybe i don't know maybe he is a great dad i don't know we'll get into it with the book maybe you can tell us but i just feel like if it were uncle you've made the sale i'm in yeah and like that's the thing amazing secondary relative as like

a father figure you know maybe it's just like you know what do you spend my money on it's like he took out a bank loan for a gold-plated banjo i don't think i think that's an expense rumple stilt skin makes So, you know, not the best role model, at least from a fiduciary perspective. That's so great. That's so great. Oh, man. I was also thinking about my dad. It's sports a little, but it's also hunting, which unfortunately I never got super into.

But sometimes him and my brother are talking. And it's like you said, you know, they'll be like, you know, there's just nothing like the quiet in the morning. And you can, you can sit there and you hear that first bird chirp. And you know, and I'm like, oh, you guys hate each other. until you're doing this. And this, we're not actually talking about the birds. We're not actually talking about deer sign. We're not actually talking about being downwind.

We're doing this is something much deeper. I mean, I think that it's like really, I don't know, it's really cool that you've basically written a whole book about how this isn't really about sports. This is about trauma and awareness. Yeah, and it's the city of Detroit. Like Detroit has been, has like bounced back from some really hard times of like the auto industry abandoned a lot of its workers.

The war on drugs. devastated the population and there were racist real estate policies that just kind of made it hard for a lot of people in the city and like your town's losing so much so is your football team so when they let you down you think oh of course I deserve this I'm meant to be behind in life and like it's about fine in the other side of that it's this weird thing I definitely want to talk like more about Detroit because one of the many like things I never got off the ground there was various so many various like TV ideas and stuff that we brought up to people over the years and like an unscripted idea at one point was I don't even remember what the name of bad rap or something like that but it was like

sort of like a travel show where you only go to places that have that get like shit on by other places or other people or that have like they're like punching bags or laughing stocks because like I'm from the fucking rural south so I definitely get it and I've always had a soft spot for those places so in my mind like Detroit and Cleveland and, you know, a lot of the Rust Belt and areas like that that I don't think are fairly judged by people. But what you just said, though, I've always told people, too, it's like, my town is, Detroit's a major American city.

But you were like, the industry fell apart and the war on drugs and the football team sucked. And it's like my tiny town in Tennessee, like the factory left, pills showed up, right? And everything fell apart, including the football team, which up until that point had been pretty good, and then they sucked for 20 years while the whole, and it's just like,

it's like when things fall apart, everything just goes to shit, you know, like, it's a compounding fucking sort of like, trauma and shittiness, and you, you know,

and then you pull yourself out of that, hopefully, which it feels like Detroit has done, you know, in recent years or has been, been doing. And again, and then now,

like, the lions are good for the first time in living memory. So, I don't know how you feel about all that. And I think Detroit kind of tells the story of America. Yeah. It is like a hundred years ago. It was the combination of Silicon Valley and Wall Street.

Our inventions were revolutionizing the world. Like half of the country's richest men lived in Detroit. We used those abilities to help win World War II. But then all of a sudden, it fell off. and they were kind of like self there was like there's a piece I'll get a little high brow there's a piece called marketing myopia

about like how automakers lost the American consumer because they were just focused on what they could do with their assembly lines and their production facilities and like the auto industry tanked and at the same time the Detroit Lions they were owned by the city of Detroit

like a thousand people owned them there was a symposium of locals they were a dynasty but the team got caught up in a gambling scandal and they were forced to say to a member of the Ford family, and then they took their downturn. What?

I did not know that. So Detroit was kind of like Green Bay once upon a time, and that it was owned by just regular folks. Yeah, like it was like a thousand local businessmen, but like Detroit, like we also did very well in Prohibition because we had a frozen river that's next to Canada, so there was a lot of great rum running. So the people who made money off that,

they really like the football team. and they would they I don't want to say mafia but team affairs were managed at spaghetti banquets so there you go right there is it just our distance from it that makes stuff like that sounds so much cooler than a modern crime when it intertwined fun stuff that's a good question I feel like a good observation when you just wrote a book where you I assume you know some of this stuff because of the research for your book yeah and I do think like the population is so much bigger. Capitalism is so much more well established where like we've lost maneuverability. And that's true for like people buying a house. That's also true for people trying to run a scam.

So they're running into the same issues. The market is not there. Yeah, the scams are so lame now because lame ones are the only ones left. Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to text. I'm going to get fake nudes and I'm going to send them to your family unless you pay me money. Like no, running alcohol across from Canada, that's a cool scam. So cool. When did you, so you, did you grow up like entirely in Detroit? Because you said your dad left at some point or about that you were like 18 or whatever. Well, I'm from an interesting place. I'm from this town, Dearborn, Michigan.

It's the most Muslim city in the country. And I grew up in like the Muslim neighborhood. So like it's divided between these two faiths. So it's kind of like the football team was the real Uniter. It's like, I don't know. Not everyone likes Jesus, but everyone like Barry Sanders. So, you know, and look, from a recovery perspective, you're allowed to do whatever higher power you want. Mine happens to wear number 20.

Yeah. I love that. So what was that like growing up in Deerborn? Because Deerborn, I mean, is it, is Deerborn like a suburb of Detroit or is it, you know, it's like it's fully owned place? I'm aware of it. I know it's the biggest Muslim population, all that. But, you know, I don't know a lot. It's the closest suburb geographically.

the trip border was like two blocks away, but like street signs are in Arabic. The hours are more of a different culture where everything's open a little later, but it's kind of cool, but it's such like a nice ethnic enclave that there's a cash-based economy so that when the state did very badly, Michigan, Deerborn in particular, was always afloat because of this population. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, my first girlfriend was Muslim. which, you know, I did, okay.

So I did like, her parents are like, hey, if you want to hang out, you got to go to the Shah and, like, repeat what he says. So I just did this to, like, go out with this girl. I accidentally converted to Islam. What? Yeah. It's not, it's as simple as that.

Like, I figured that you just go there and repeat after me. That's no weirder than when young Baptist or young Muslims get married at 17, just a bang. You know, it's just like, yeah, we're making this big, but it's, dude, I'll do anything you say. I can, you know. Yeah, and like, is repeating words, is that much more than being dunk in water?

Both are very temporary steps that kind of change you forever. Did you know immediately? Oh, shit. Did you walk out of like, did I just convert to Islam? Or like, I knew. So I knew because I left there and her mom was not wearing a hijab and it's like, oh, what did I do? I think I might have taken this a bridge too far.

Oh, wow. Damn, that's correct. How long did that last? Like, you know what? You're Muslim to this day? Well, I haven't, I haven't renounced it. If that is the true faith, I'd like to have my bases covered. Right.

You know? Yeah. But we're dear friends. I was in her wedding party. I'm in my guest room right now. She came up for book launch. She's crashing here tonight. So it turned into a beautiful friendship and we kind of laugh about it, you know, given 20 years

of hindsight. It's weird, this sort of thematic book ending here. before you came on, we were talking about my old high school girlfriend and how she was one of the only Catholics in my hometown. And that was the first time I went to like a Catholic. I went to a midnight mass with her. And you know, I know that like in most places. Did you take the sacrament tree? No, I'm saying I don't know that does not compare to converting to Islam. Don't get me wrong. But I thought it was pretty white. Because I grew up a religious. I didn't even go to like bad. I didn't go to church period. And then I go to a midnight Catholic church where they're doing the, you know, peace be to you and also to you and the kneeling and all this stuff.

and, you know, that was pretty wild to me as a 16-year-old. But me and that girl are not dear friends to this day. I do wish her the best. I just feel like, on paper, it sounds extreme, but there are people in 30-year marriages right now who are like, yeah, I don't know, I did it for her, you know, like deep down. So it's like, I think it's kind of, it's pretty, like, culturally normal. I did want to circle back briefly to the book.

The elevator pitch is great, but getting into the ditty-gritty of it. I mean, is this a hit. history of the team, a memoir, a self-help book, all of that wrapped into one. It's all of that wrapped into one. And like, you know, it's kind of taking like Nick Hornby wrote a great book about English soccer teams called Fever Pitch. And I really like this book Middlesex that traced the generations of Detroit. So I kind of smashed them together with my own experiences. And like, I had this idea for a story structure that I thought would work. And then I went all in on it. Like, Drew, you know,

through comedy. Like, before I was a comedian, I wanted to be a novelist, but, you know, I was a little too successful too soon, and I ended up drinking myself to death. So I was actually in recovery meetings and people were like, what's your goal? I was like, I think it says book. Like, to do this book sober would be the coolest thing I could ever do. And four years later, here we are. That's awesome. I can't wait to read it. And then like, is it like available, you know, people, I think you've done a pretty good sales pitch here. Where can we get it? Is it like everywhere books are sold or one specific spot?

No, everywhere books are sold. So it's out with Simon and Schuster. So I've got great distribution and like Amazon Target, Walmart, bookshop.com, Barnes & Noble and like all these, the city of Detroit's rolling their red carpet out. So like I partnered with the library system to talk about football and addiction under one roof. So like I think that's going to be a really cool series of events.

yeah that's awesome well i'm happy for everybody it is definitely exciting if you don't mind to get a little into the sausage making at least somewhat how you said that four years ago is when you had the idea so it took you like four years to write this roughly yeah four years to write this and like the team was still dog shit when i started writing like and like i was like really starting to take recovery seriously the lions hired this guy dan campbell and it's like oh that we're doing things a little bit differently. But as I was writing the book about my emotional journey and my dad, my dad started dying. So I had to abandon everything. I became his caretaker. So like, you know, helping someone die is a lot of sitting around and waiting. So I was just like,

write in a journal while I did that. I'd give him the pages and I'd be like, hey, is this accurate? And like, that was my process. And like, the team got good. The team almost went to the Super Bowl. And like, he's like, hey, will you go to this NFC championship game for me? I'm like, yeah, sure. That's really, that's really sweet. I have two like specific things I want to ask about then. So just so I'm clear what's going on here, you're writing this part, memoir, part history of a team. And then you have someone who's autistic and it's their special interest. Is that team reviewing it for you? Was that mostly a leg up because he was so knowledgeable or was it like annoying because he's like so it's his special interest so he's like precious

about it it was pretty annoying because he was in he was like a hoarder too so i was just in like a room in bloomington and indiana surrounded by every NFL team's media guide from 1970 to the present and like he would pull up different references he would yell at me for not including different guys and like anything about him he would just accept he didn't care what i wrote about him. But if I got one thing wrong with the team, he would correct me immediately with like four notes. Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. The second question I wanted to ask is the line's getting good. How did that change? Right. Thanks. So two things happen and they're kind of like sort of feel opposed, right? Where it's like the lions get good and your dad gets sick, right? Both of

which happened after you've already had this idea and start this process. So like, how did that, you know, alter the whole thing? And I think it went hand in hand because I kind of conceptualized it. Like, I needed to do a lot of that really hard interior recovery work in order to be present

enough to like guide his death and make it a good departure. We're like, oh, the team got good because they changed their interior operating processes. Is it really? that different from being a son, knowing your dad's going to leave and pin them down with the tough conversations? Like, I don't think it's that far off. No, that makes sense to me. I mean, it sounds like you're kind of saying like, no, it actually thematically made sense because I was finally

getting my shit together and the team was finally getting their shit together. Yeah, and I think like there's like, it's a, it's a lark of an idea, but there's like four or five lucky coincidences just in terms of where we both were. So like, I mentioned like drinking myself to death. we went 0.16 a couple weeks prior. You know, I'm sitting in a trailer. I don't have a dollar to my name. And Stafford comes in with a broken shoulder and we beat the Browns. I get a little bit of hope.

Like, you know, I just think like everything that's happened to me kind of just, I don't know, it feels very purposeful and meant to be. I love that attitude. Do you the, you said the city of Detroit rolling out the red carpet and they're loving it and everything. What about the team? Is the team at all involved? Did you ask? Do they,

you know what I mean? Because I know that sometimes people get access and stuff when they're writing books and shit. They will never give me the time of day because I'm honest about the Ford family. And they're out there role in the city and their eons of mismanagement. I kind of figured you would say that.

Yeah, I mean, they're like the automakers are very provincial. You can't criticize them. Like the entire city is a monument to how perfect these imperfect people are. Right. That's so interesting too because it's almost like the subtexter of that is almost, no, no, no, you can say the team fucking sucks. But you can't say the family that owns them. Right.

Not that it's because of them. Right. Right. Yeah, and it's not like it was Henry Ford's team. It was like Henry Ford's grandson's team. It's like the fail son of a fail son. Love this team. and he loved it like Lenny of mice and men

and like really just squandered everything good associated with like it was long time rumored we kept this terrible GM for 20 years and like the talk around Detroit was that's his AA sponsor he gets to run the lions because he got him Matt Millen? No there was a guy Russ Thomas before that. Oh, okay.

Millen gets a pass because Millen told him hey, I'm not qualified for this job and they hired him anyway. Yeah, classic move. Sick. They put Millen in charge of the entire organization where like a month into running an NFL team, he had to figure out maternity leave where I don't think that's a former linebacker's strong suit. Right. But the other guy, he was the owner's A.A. sponsor or that was the rumor or whatever.

Yeah, it was like A.A. sponsor or he took the fall for like an auto crash and like he had some dirt on William Clayford. Man, I got to get some dirt on some rich. Of course, I got a no and hang out with rich people for it. is almost fully off topic, but no, it's tangential at least. As a guy who's now a comic who grew up in that area, you're around our age and everything, where are you at on like Tim Allen slash home improvements and that whole deal? Like, uh, because, you know, the lions were part of that. He was always wearing lions gear and shit.

He's a big Detroit guy, right? If anyone rocks with the lions, you know, I'll give the time of day. Like, I watched that show because I, because he wore like a Detroit lion. sweatsh sweater. And like that was enough. Right. I remember the sweatshirt, vivid, though. It was a big part of it. But it's just so odd now. I mean, whether everyone agrees with his politics now or not, it's odd, he's got like a Bill Cosby thing going on where it's like, he's like, you know, mad that everyone's like left wing or doing things wrong. And it's like, brother, didn't you like blow all your money on cocaine and not pay your taxes?

Like, it's like, that's odd. It's like, apart from disagreeing with what you are, there feels like there's some hypocrisy. Well, he's actually the, reverse cause because his worst thing came at the beginning of his career he got caught smuggling cocaine and then he turned on his suppliers and he got out of it then he became america's dad and you know for him to talk about like how good conservatism is when he's only here because of liberal prison policies is very egregious to me yeah that's i guess that's what i was getting that it's like you know you pull from side from the hometown and i think a lot of times people assume that someone like myself, like, I hate this guy because he's conservative.

It's like, no, like, it's deeper than that, you know? Like, before we found out J.D. Vance was a total liar and shuckster. Like, we had him on. You know, like, we did. Because we were like, oh, this dude is my father-in-law. And it turns out, I was like, no, this dude is who's lying to my father-in-law. That's a very different category. Yeah.

I think it's easy to just, like, fake being an upstanding man and be like, oh, these are my beliefs. I dress a certain way. I go to a certain church. And a lot of people will just accept that as, oh, this is someone we look up to. Yeah. You just reminded me, I think I have a theory on why that is.

It's because it's hard for them to do those things. Because they're like thinking deep people. And they're like, God damn, if he's gritting his teeth through this church service and wearing these stupid fucking polos and pretending to care about this stuff, he's a guy like me. It's so hard for me not to cheat on my.

my wife. I'm sure it's hard for that guy too. He's a good person. So are you going on are you doing um, you know, book events and stuff like that? Uh, like you said doing this thing at the library and everything, but yeah. No, and it's um, kind of happy timing. Like, lucky timing book comes out today. The Detroit book fest is Sunday where like thousands of Detroiters, they go to Eastern market downtown where it's just like that's like our thing. We love Eastern market and like they just buy books. and like I think I'm going to do pretty well with a lion's book there. Oh, yeah. I would think so.

And then the newspaper gave me an excerpt today. And I was like, hey, let me write a column about the team during this year where I'm just going to cover the team from a prism of radical acceptance where no matter what, I'm going to enjoy it. So the bullshit I put in the book, I'm going to put that to the test real time in print throughout the season. And they said yes. Yeah. Hell yeah, dude. That's awesome. Well, super exciting.

Happy for you, man. But thanks for coming on, promoting it. The book sounds great. Like I said, just an elevator pitch, just you briefly describing it. I was like, oh, that's a really good idea. It's definitely something that I personally relate to a lot. I definitely get where you're coming from with that. But tell everybody one more time if you don't care before we close out.

You know, remind them the name of the book, but also where they can find you if you want, whatever you want to plug. just yeah and the book is honolulu blues how loving a losing football team created a winning man not my subtitle yeah i didn't know if you wanted to say that publicly yeah you know the dude look again we know publishers love a subtitle for some like an overlong to try trying too hard subtitle they love that shit they won't let you not do it apparently yeah and like i would encourage the listeners, viewers to give this a chance because this is a book for men that's not condescending, that's honest about the experience and like pretty ruthlessly, like, I sort

through my bullshit. I'm not perfect in the book, but like at the same time, it's a comedy. It's fun to read. And I think you're able to apply like this book to whatever it is you happen to love. So Honolulu Blues, check it out everywhere. I'm Joel Walkowski. on all platforms. All right. Well, appreciate it, Drew.

Thank you, good seeing you. Yeah, my man. Drew, plug your stuff. I'll do mine. Then we'll all get out of here.

The next dates I have are Birmingham, which I'll announce today, I think, or maybe tomorrow. That's on August 7th. I'm going to be in New Orleans, August 8th. And I want you guys to come out and see me at both of those shows.

I actually love those cities. Not in August, but we're going to do our best as a red hat. This weekend I'll be at the Grove in Lowell, Arkansas, all with Caleb signing. Very funny guy. Come see us there, please.

Then later in August, I got Omaha, Des Moines, Kansas City. Then upstate New York and Hartford and a bunch of other places coming up later in the summer and the fall, all at Trey Crowder.com. All right. That's it. Thank you all for listening to the well-read show. We'd love to stick around longer, but we got to go. Tune in next week if you got nothing to do.

Thank you. God bless you. Good night and skew. All right.