We're All Insane - Arrested for Sorority Hazing

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp - go to http://betterhelp.com/insane to get 10% off your first month. Sorority hazing refers to the practice of subjecting prospective or new members of a sorority (a female social organization typically associated with colleges or universities) to various activities or rituals that may involve physical, emotional, or psychological stress. These activities are often intended to test the individual's commitment, loyalty, or ability to endure challenges in order to gain acceptance into the sorority. It's important to note that hazing can have serious consequences, and many institutions and organizations have strict policies against such activities due to the potential for harm and legal implications. If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me Devorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. Hi, my name is Monica and in 2016 I was arrested for sorority hazing. So I'm going to tell you how it happened and what happened before, during, and after the arrest. I remember my first, like, real introduction to Greek life and sororities, fraternities. It was probably, like, growing up, like, I'm sure you remember, like, legally blonde. She was, like, in a sorority, and it looks like the funnest thing ever.

There was, I remember, like, this, like, show called. called Greek. There was like Scream 2. They were like in a sorority. And it all like like in the early 2000s there were so many like movies I feel like like those college like you know what I'm saying. Yeah. So it always like interest you. Right. Okay. So I feel like when I was in high school, I remember there was a girl who she went to Arizona State. And back then it was like the only real social media was like Facebook. This was like 2012, 2013. And I remember she was like a freshman at Arizona State. And she was part of sorority there. And that's like a huge Greek life school. And I remember like on Facebook seeing her posts like all these pictures of like bid day and these like

mixers. And it was like all of these like beautiful like college girls like going to like sports games, like wearing like matching outfits and doing like you know just like living their lives like it looked like so much fun and that's when i feel like i was like because i'm an only child so i don't have any like um older sisters or anything like that and that's when i was like oh my god like this looks like so much fun like i would love to join a sorority when i get to college and it was never really like a question i knew i was going to go to college i wanted to like originally i wanted to like pursue like child psych or something like that. And I wound up going a different direction. But regardless, I knew I was like I wanted to go to a big university and I wanted to like join Greek life.

There's a lot of like like a lingo in Greek life. So I'm going to try to do my best to. Yeah, I don't know anything about it. So I'm curious. Okay. Yeah. I feel like if you if you were in it, you know too much about it. And if you weren't in it, you have no idea what I'm talking about. So I'm going to do my best to like to explain everything and what these like words mean. Okay. All right. So when I got to college, I really, to be honest with you, I had like no academic direction. I had applied to a bunch of like big universities.

I had I remember I had gotten into Ohio State and I couldn't go because it was the tuition was just like way too expensive. And I wound up accepting, like, my offer to go to the university at Albany, which is upstate New York. And I was, like, so excited to go. I remember I was, like, one of, like, maybe, like, five kids from my graduating class who were going. So, like, I live on Long Island in New York. And it's very, like, common to go to, like, schools, like, upstate. But like the university at Albany University at Buffalo are like the most like the bigger ones.

So I was really thrilled to be going there. There's like thousands and thousands of students. And I wanted like that like big lecture hall like you know like exciting experience. I remember when I like got there I was really excited to make friends. I wasn't really like focused on so much on like classes and thinking about like what it was that I wanted to do with my life. And I was more really focused on like what my social life was going to be like. Like and I think that's really common.

I was going to say I think that's really, really normal. Yeah. I feel like for me like the only reason I didn't have that desire is because I feel like for me in high school, that's kind of when I like did all my parting and my going out. And I've always had bad anxiety. So like the idea of going away to college and staying away, like it just like didn't interest me whatsoever. But I can see how like for somebody else like that.

Because I can remember watching those movies and thinking it looked fun, but thinking I would never be able to like do it because of my anxiety issues. But yeah, I feel like it provides like a sense of like this crazy social life. And you know that you have these friends and the sense of community and like your own group. It's almost like you know that you're walking into something that it's like, okay, for the next four years, like this is my, this is my group, this is my thing. Exactly, yeah. I mean, because you kind of are, like, you're like, well, I want to be a part of something big.

I want to be around people that are like me, like women who are like me that want the same things as me. And essentially you're starting over going into college. So it kind of like gives you that entryway as soon as you get there. Yeah, definitely. I think a lot of like college freshmen, they drop out like their first semester, first year. And I think it's because they get way to involved and, like, sucked into their social life aspect. And I think that, you know, of course, their parents are, like, so mad.

I think, though, that, like, what people overlook is how difficult it is to, like, really go away to college at that age. Like, it's scary enough to move to a different place when you're an adult. But to move to a different place and, you know, to not know anyone and kind of... And it's hard to make friends if you're not a part of things like that. Yeah. Because I did go to some colleges, some away, well, one away. And I, like, really didn't make friends, like, at all. It's so hard.

Right, because it's like, what are you supposed to meet someone in class? Or, like, it's rare unless you're like, I don't even know because I didn't even really go to parties because I was just, I hated it. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it can be very, very tough depending on, like, your level of social anxiety. And me, honestly, I think that's what propelled me to join a sorority because I was like, well, at least if I, I'm able to join a sorority, like, and I'll, you know, I have like a set group of friends. I don't have to worry about like, like, mingling all the time.

Right. You know, and I know that sounds silly because it's like a social group, but it almost just felt like the sense of security or something like that in a weird way. Yeah. So I think that, like, when I got there, like I said, I was definitely more focused on. making friends and what I could do to you know like like find a sorority and it turns out that you really honestly if you're an incoming like freshman I mean at least at that school you don't really have to worry about that because

and I'll get into why so essentially the way that student housing works in Albany is the campus is uptown and as a freshman and a freshman and a sophomore you live in the dorms that surround the school and like they basically the juniors and seniors are allowed to live off campus so they live like in the downtown area and that's not necessarily regulated by the university so these houses are like privately owned by landlords and they are all within like seven or eight blocks of each other so that's where like all like all all of the parties happen. So it's off campus.

That's like the downtown area. Correct. Yeah. And then uptown, what really like is there? I'm asking this because like I watch gossip girl. I'm like my third time watching it. But like I like it makes me wonder like how actually like how it actually is like all the different parts of New York.

Like is that like what's like the fancier part? So so Albany is a separate like city from New York. It's upstate. Got it. So that's like it's a much smaller city. It's a very old. But it's apart from New York City. So it's completely different.

It's on its own. Correct. Yeah. So basically when you, there's the uptown area, which has a lot of the, like, I think like federal and state buildings and stuff like that. It also has the University of Albany. And the downtown area is more of like student housing. Okay.

Lots of like more shops and just like more like residential. Got it. Yeah. But it is essentially like a small old city. Okay. So that's like overall. That's pretty much what it is. And in order to get downtown as a student as a freshman or, you know, anyone,

because typically after freshman year you bring your car and whatever, you're allowed to park and stuff. But basically you take the bus, which is paid for, the university so it is like a like a it's like a city bus but you get free admission onto the bus that's nice that they do that yeah um and so you're able to get downtown that way and it's like a really short ride so the first few weeks of like college i was like non-stop partying i just wanted to go out and wanted to like meet people i was like really excited um i made like friends with my roommates and my sweetmates and stuff like that, like right away. And there would be like parties in the dorms. And then we would all go downtown, like to the downtown area to kind of like see if we could find a

party or like, you know, someone always knows someone who knows someone who, you know, is like hosting a party and stuff like that. And if you've ever been to like a frat party, you kind of know what it's like, it's like, it's like a girls get in for free. Guys have to pay or they have to. like know someone there or something like that um like they have to know a brother who's in the frat it's so corny at this point you're living just in the dorms right yeah so that like right now like like i was uh at this time i was like a freshman and did school was school started yet or was you there early so like you'll go to orientation and then um which is like where you meet some people and stuff like that um because they're like all in the same boat you all want to make friends uh this though

I think since we're like moving into the dorms, you get there like a like a week or a couple of days early. Okay. And what happens is you just have nothing to do for those days. So you just wind up going out and like, you know, drinking and trying to like meet people and stuff like that. Like mingling. Okay. So classes don't start until what's called like syllabus week. I'm sure you know.

Which you also do nothing for because you just get your syllabus and leave. Right. So that's just another excuse to like go to a class for, you know, 10, 15, 20 minutes and then like go. And so, you know, you really do have a couple of weeks in the beginning of the semester to really just like fuck around and do like nothing at all. Which is why, you know, you use it as an excuse to kind of go out and mingle and, you know, meet people and stuff like that. So I remember like the first couple of parties that I went to. were at like frat houses they were in these disgusting dingy basements like these houses were literally and i'm sure they were packed too right packed like complete fire hazard right like falling apart

these houses were caving in like yeah and to the point where it was like it was so sketchy it was a little scary yeah and then you know they have like a keg in the basement and like you don't even know if the cups are clean and like looking back now I'm 26 and I'm like you right why would I do that why was I there right well you got to do what you got to do to party exactly that was the thing then because like that's the thing that's all you're worried about that's all you're like anxious to do right you're just like oh this is so cool it's like the exciting thing it's like where are we going who are we going exactly just do it yeah and of course you want to like you want to meet guys and stuff like that and so what'll happen is at these parties like upper class

men, girls will come up to you and they'll make friends with you. And of course, you're like anxious to make friends. So you're thrilled. And, you know, they'll dance with you. They'll, like, get you drinks. And like, you know, they'll introduce you to their friends. And they'll just kind of like take you under their wing in a way. Which, like, you're so vulnerable at that age. And especially when you're like brand new to a college. It's just, it's almost, it's almost. It's almost. a little predatory in a way, you know what I mean? It's in its own way. And so that definitely happened a couple of different times, like a couple of different nights. And these girls will get your social media, they'll get your number. And then they'll text you, like they're your friends. And of course,

you expect that they are your friend because you're like, why else would they be talking to me? But these girls are in organizations or orgs, which are sororities, and they're trying to recruit you. That's their job. So every girl in the org has a job and they're either like rush captain or social and that's why they're talking to you. So you know it's of course you don't expect that. And essentially what happened for me is I was, you know, I had met this girl, I'll leave her name out I guess.

She was incredibly nice. She was actually, I think she was a senior. And, you know, I was just felt like we had so much in common. And like she just loved to go out and party. She was like a free spirit. And she is like that, you know, because I know that now. But she was very good at kind of like roping me into something that I had no idea. I had no idea what I was about to get into.

And she also did this with, I want to say, five other girls. So there was six girls in what was called my pledge class, which is essentially you agree to pledge the sorority. So. And what does that mean? That means that you, like pledging means that you're going to, you want to join and that you're about to embark on like requirements for getting into the sorority. Got it. You don't know what those things are until you kind of move forward with it.

Okay. And so that's where the hazing comes in. So how did she, she met you at this party? And then were you guys just hanging out or how did she introduce the whole sorority idea to you? So like I said, I went in. to college already knowing that I wanted to join a sorority. Okay. I just had no idea what the process was like or what it was supposed to be like.

So, you know, from an outside perspective, I thought that it was really all about like parties, meeting people, meeting guys, going out, you know, like having some elite access to like a social life. Okay. I really didn't understand that it's not supposed to be that way. It's supposed to be about philanthropy and being part of something that's supposed to like help propel your career in the future. It's not like the social aspect is really supposed to aid in in more of like a philanthropic. Okay.

Like mission. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that's what it's supposed to be. But at this school, it really. wasn't that way at all. I feel like they don't show it like that either in movies. Like, no, I would just assume it's like a.

Yeah, it's like a social organization. That's it. Yeah. And so, you know, it was like I had, I remember she had, when I had met her, she was like, yeah, I'm part of the sorority. It's called Alpha Omicron Pie. And I love my sisters. Like, they love me.

Like, we're literally a family. we do anything and everything together like um these girls like you know we we have so much fun like we go out um you know we share clothes like and you know coming from like um like like a like a family where i was an only child i was like oh my god that sounds so cool these are the like the like the sisters that i never had like you know and everything just seems like sunshine and rainbows like um it wasn't just that though like when she would she would bring me around she would like introduce me to to all of the sisters in the sorority, they were all really sweet and nice. And they all kind of like took me under their wing and they were like, you know,

they make, they do a very good job making you feel special. And they, I remember like she would bring me to like fraternity parties. She would like introduce me to like all the brothers. And like she'd be like, you know, like this is like a mixer. Like we wouldn't have been able to like, you wouldn't have been able to. like you wouldn't have been able to come here if like, you know, we weren't friends and stuff like that. And it's just like looking back on it, it all just seems so like stupid because it's like, you know, it's all very like pointless and it's fun in the moment. But again, I had no idea like what I was about to get into.

I think also 90% of what we do in life we can look back on at one point and be like, why did I do that or that was stupid or what was the point? But I think too, it's like at that age and going into college, like all we want is to have fun. Like I remember there are points in my life, not college, but like in high school, I would have done anything to get a little bit of alcohol because I was underage. And it's like you don't, you're not thinking about anything else because like it sounds funny and stupid. But there, I feel like for most people there is a point in your life where the only thing that matters is like partying. Yes. Like you know exactly what I mean. And I was a little bit that way in high school too.

I think that I was definitely rebellious, like, you know, in my teens. And so it almost just like tripled when I went to college because I was like, this is like where the real fun is going to happen. I think, too, like who doesn't have the desire to be liked by a lot of people and have a lot of friends and have a group of girlfriends that you feel like we're so close and we're like. sisters. And it's like that makes sense to me. Like I feel like who wouldn't want that? I mean, unless you just don't. But like even even me, somebody that didn't, like I didn't have an interest in a sorority, I still feel like as a girl like that like we like I'm social. Like I love to have friends and talk to people. Like why not? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And you don't go into it thinking anything bad's going to happen. That's the probably the last thing on your mind. You're

thinking of all the positives and the social things and, you know, all that stuff. So absolutely. Yeah, you're just like, and that's just part of being young, too. You don't ever think that anything bad's going to happen. Yeah. You think you're going to, like, also, if you do bad things, you think that if you've gotten away with it this far, you know, like, you know. You're invincible. Right.

So, anyway, this, this girl who was recruiting me, she was just making it, you know, showing me like Greek life what it was like and how it was just so much fun. and she was essentially saying like you can have all of this all you need to do is pledge the sorority and to me I was like that's a no-brainer like I want all of this I want to you know I want to be known by people I want to have like a like a group I want to like not have to worry about constantly making friends and you know I want to have like a sisterhood so that's what was so peeling about it and so she had also like I said, gotten like maybe like five other girls on board in this way.

They were all like similar to me where they were just, you know, like looking for sisterhood. It's funny because like if someone did a study on this, they were all, I think like all of them except for one were only children. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So it's funny. Are you? Yeah.

So you know what I mean. Like, you know, you're just kind of like seeking. It's intriguing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. You're like seeking like sisterhood kind of. And so we all became like, you know, she introduced us to each other. And she was like, you guys are going to be our pledge class for the spring of 2016. So I was like, okay, great. Like I'm so excited because I went away to college in 2015. So the first semester, I just spent like having your time and stuff like

that. And then at the beginning of the spring semester, that's when I decided to pledge. And was she living in the dorms or was there like a house that she was in? So she was living in a house downtown. She was like, I think she was a senior. But is that like a thing where like everyone in a sorority lives in one house or no? So that's what I thought when I went to college. I thought that there would be like a fraternity row like you see in movies and TV shows. And it was. It was. like that there at all it was what basically what happens is like um there's lots of sororities and fraternities at that school what they do is there's maybe like five people to a house downtown and they will try to like um rent like like four five houses for like all of the upperclassmen to live in and they'll

I mean, I guess it works out because when they like throw parties, they alternate houses. Okay. So it doesn't make any one house like too like hot. And I'm sure maybe there are some schools where if it is set up like that, they might have that kind of thing where a lot of them will live in one house. Yeah. But I feel like that probably makes more sense. It's like that would be more normal. Like if there's multiple and then they.

Yeah. That's the non-movie. The non-movie version. It's funny because because it's like. it's even harder to explain this situation. Yeah. Because, you know, like a lot of schools, like huge universities, they have like a fraternity row where they have like a house mom or something like that.

Really? Yeah. And like, like, have you seen like all the discourse about like Bama Rush? No. There's like a whole like conspiracy about like University of Alabama like sorority rush. And like, I don't know. My best friend went there all to ask her. Yeah.

It's. I don't remember if she was in like. Why do I feel like she kind of was? Knowing her she was in the sorority. I'll have to ask her. Yeah, she would know. She would know. Like it's like a whole thing.

But it's, this is very different. Okay. It's a lot less formal. It's a lot more like, like, uh, like dirty there. Like, it's just like, like, it's like a dingy, like place. Right. You know what I'm saying?

It's like in upstate New York. It's like cold. It's like, you know, but the university is so huge that it just makes it like, like, a huge like like college hot spot. Okay. Okay. So anyway, so I was introduced to my pledge sisters and we became like really fast friends. And I remember we were introduced at the end of the fall semester in 2015 and we had like

that month break or something before we would go back for the next semester and we were going to pledge together. So the girl who was trying to recruit us, I. I had heard about sorority hazing. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm missing a big part. Okay. So you're not allowed, like the university has rules.

You're not allowed to pledge a sorority as a first semester freshman. You have to be a second semester freshman or on. And there are only, like, certain sororities that are sanctioned by the university. So, like, unsanctioned sororities. and fraternities are organizations that have gotten in trouble for something. This could be like they got in trouble for not paying dues. They got in trouble for not like completing requirements that were required by like their Greek like headquarters or something like that. But at this school, for the most part, it was sorority and fraternity hazing that they they called it like got kicked off of

the campus for okay so um this sorority that this girl was trying to talk me into pledging was an unsanctioned sorority but she was very much like you know this is very this is only temporary we have all these sisters that you know pledged above ground that's what it's called so they're like a sanctioned sorority would be um above ground an unsanctioned sorority would be underground so you know She was like, we have all these amazing sisters who pledged above ground. And, you know, we, like, we don't haze, but they had gotten in trouble for hazing. And she's like, you know, somebody, like, ratted on us. It was a lie.

Like, you know, she's just giving me, like, the run around. Yeah, convinced you. And, you know, 18-year-old me was like, well, you know, like, I'm sure it's fine. You wouldn't know any better. Like, the only thing you're going to do is take someone's word. Like, you just got there. Exactly. So I was like, you know, I'm sure that it's going to be fine.

And even if they do, hey, it's like, what could they possibly do? Right. You know, it doesn't really matter. Yeah. And I'm sure I'll be fine. And I really want this. So I think a lot of times when you really want something, you just kind of smooth it over in your mind and you're like, I'm going to make it work, like no matter what.

Yeah, you make it seem better than it is. Right, exactly. So this sorority was underground. It was not, like, I wasn't pledging through the school. there was no like school official like overseeing the process or checking up on us or knowing that we were pledging this sorority. But again, like all that mattered to me was the social part of it. So I was like, well, if we don't do stuff in relation to the school, what does it even matter? You know, I'll still be able to go to these parties and have a good time and, you know, all that.

So, like, just to go back to in between, like, the fall semester and the spring semester, at the end of the fall semester, I met the girls I would be pledging with. So we had kind of gotten close over the break because a lot of us lived on Long Island. And then when we came back for the spring semester, we were, you know, we were allowed to, like, just like relax and party for like a week and then we would start pledging so the attitude of the sisters in the sorority was like literally like night and day like the day we started pledging it was like we're not your friend we don't like you guys and um you need to like earn our respect and everything became extremely intense.

And, you know, we're like, oh, it's like an act or whatever, you know, like. Was this like a meeting? Like, what I'm like envisioning you guys lined up? You know what I mean? Yeah. So they called us to a house downtown. Okay. And they were like, you know, you guys have to be here by like 8 p.m. or whatever.

And you have to, they were giving us like these strange like rules. You have to sit down like on the floor like. like cross-legged, um, close your eyes and you have to like, uh, I think it was, you have to like, like line up in a line, um, based on your height. That's what it was. And so, you know, they were like literally telling you guys like, we don't like you type of thing. Yeah. So, so we got there and, and, you know, we're so used to like having a good time with these girls. We like, we know them. We've known them for so long. And, you know, we're like expecting like this to be like some type of like ceremony or like a joke or something like that. And these

girls all come in and like we went to the house and the house was like empty. And so we did as instructed. And we sat down in a line with like our like. crossed in the dark. You're like what's going on right now. And the girls come in and they give us like this one girl gives us this speech. And she's like, we're not your friend. Like you're not. And for the next like until you guys cross. So cross is when you get into the sorority. They're like until you guys cross, you're not one of us. We don't like you guys. And they just are just going on. and on being like saying like degrading things um being like mean um and and we were all just like very confused yeah because we were like what's happening right now like this is weird um and they're like

if you guys don't want to be part of this you can drop right now but we're just going to let you know if you drop drop is basically when you say I don't want to do this anymore I can't I'm not interested I want to go back to living a normal life. If you guys drop, you will be absolutely blacklisted by every single person in Greek life. The fraternities are not going to fuck with you. No other sorority is going to want you because you already pledged another one and you dropped because you couldn't handle it. So just expect that, you know, you're never ever going to be let into another party ever again. you're never going to be you know be able to like people are going to see you on campus and they're

going to know what you did and they were just trying to make it seem extremely intimidating yeah like like you had no other option at that point right and so we're like okay like you know i don't really even see you know why why we would drop right but of course you know they're they're trying to make you like uh they're trying to intimidate you with the it. And so after that, you know, they were like, get up and clean the whole house. And we're like, okay, like, for real. And, you know, of course, like, again, we think that we know these girls because we've been, you know, partying with them, talking candidly with them. We know things about their life. And, you know, just imagine when you meet a girl who becomes your friend and, you know,

there's you share your life with her and she shares her life and all of a sudden it's like she's telling you what to do and it's like you have to earn you know like you have to earn like you have to prove something to her and it's like very bizarre so so we're like okay I guess we'll clean the house like what do you want done um and they start like bossing us from around and telling us, you know, how we need to, like, literally like I'm talking like scrub the grout with like a toothbrush type of cleaning and how we're like we're doing their dishes. And it's, it's very strange because it's such a shift and it's very confusing. And we're all just kind of like, okay, this is just like probably like a joke or, you know, what, you know, what they have to do for

some reason because it's part of their traditions. In the next couple weeks, though, it became like insane. Like there were so many different things. Each day, we'd have to be downtown by eight o'clock. We'd have to, like I said, sit in the dark room, cross-legged in the dark. And they would come in, you know, we don't know how long we're going to be waiting there. Sometimes we're waiting there for like 15 minutes. Sometimes we're waiting there for like an hour. And we would have to just like, I don't know, just like do whatever they said. And these tasks became increasingly like strange, like bizarre, like dangerous. So it started with the cleaning.

And then like what were the other ones? So it started with the cleaning. And then it would eventually be like, you need to address us as sister XYZ. So like whatever their first and last name was. Um, unique, like, I remember we would have to, like, do skits, like make up dances, like, sing for them. And all just so that, you know, we would basically, they would get to, like, degrade us and, like, make fun of us. And then it started with, like, they would start, like, screaming at us and, like, insulting us and calling us bad. names, they would make us, like, go to, like, the fraternities, like to do errands. And then I remember there was a scavenger hunt, which I think is, like, a common tradition in a lot of different sorority and fraternity, like hazing rituals, where we would have to,

like, find things, like, all around the city of Albany that were either, like, hidden or just, like things that they would get creative and makeup. And it was, the reason it was like confusing for an 18, 19 year old girl is because some of these things, like it all seems like a joke and it's all kind of like funny, but it's also very degrading and confusing. And you're like, why am I even doing this at one point, you know? But then then you're too scared to drop out of it because you're so scared that. that, you know, your social life will be, like, first of all, I did this all for nothing.

And your social life is going to be, like, dead after this, you know? So the tasks continued to get, like, more ridiculous. And then it went to exercising. So it was like, you guys are fat. You need to exercise. They called them cals or calisynics. And they would make us, like, if we said or did something that they would. didn't like. And I mean, it wasn't just like, you know, it would be anything at all. Like,

they would make up reasons for reasons, you know, for things that we would have to do. It would be, like, drop to the ground and give me like 10 pushups, 20 pushups, you know, 40 sit-ups, whatever it was. And we would have to keep going until they said to stop. So, you know, it was, at that point, I was like, okay, well, I guess it's a good thing that I am kind of in shape from high school. But then it got like more dark. So I remember halfway through the pledge process, they were like, you guys need to, you know, line up in the basement with a blindfold on. So every day it was just getting more like intense. And how long did this go on for?

It would go on until they fell. Well, each day, it would start at around like 7 or 8 p.m. Okay. And then it would go on until the girls, like, went to sleep. And we were in any given house. Like, they would send us to different houses because, like I said, there was, like, three or four different houses that they had downtown. Yeah.

So, you know, we'd have to buy stuff for them. We'd have to bring them things. We'd have to, like, run errands for them. You're basically, like, a slave, you know? Yeah. And if they had parties. we would have to, sometimes we'd have to like show up to the parties and kind of, like, assist them with things and stay there until they said we could like go home.

And of course, you know, Greek life and fraternities and sororities at that school were very like, if you're in it, you know. So it wasn't strange for other fraternities to, see like sorority pledges. It wasn't strange for sororities to see fraternity pledges doing ridiculous things, like walking around with like marker all over their face, you know, looking like a fool, like just being degraded in public or things like that. Yeah, it was, I mean, this was a long time ago, so I'm doing my best to remember, like the specifics and stuff. But I'm Anna Garcia, host of True Crime News, the podcast.

Every week we bring you in-depth coverage on cases making headlines, as well as those that go under the radar. Tune in for murders that defy explanation, mystery seeking exploration, and shocking secrets that will leave you breathless. Each week we honor the victims by going beyond the salacious in our search for justice. Crime never stops, and neither do we. Listen to True Crime News available now wherever you get your podcast. At this point with the blindfolding in the basement, how many days in was that? Maybe like three weeks. Oh, wow.

So it was like weeks of this. Yeah, yeah. This wasn't just like a couple days. The pledge process is meant to be like eight weeks. Oh, wow. Yeah. Them just basically making you do whatever they say. Exactly.

You're like a slave. You need to like do whatever it is that they're asking you no matter how crazy it is. And just take all the degrading comments. reading comments along the way. Right. Exactly. And if you refuse or you do something wrong or you're late for something, you might not suffer, but your whole pledge class will suffer. I think I'd kick somebody in the throat. Yeah. It was very... I wouldn't go in there. It was very intense. Yeah. It was extremely crazy. It was very intense. It was so like looking back on it. It's such a bizarre thing. But what I'm trying to get at is, is like every fraternity and sorority at this school

and at most schools do this. So like, because, you know, I had friends from high school who, you know, went to different schools and they all said it's the same thing. And I can't stress enough how it's so normalized. It's like this. It's a power thing. Yeah. It's like this life and world underground that like no one else understands or sees unless you're joining an organization and it's it becomes so normalized to you yes it's and i'll get i'll get further into that it is probably the closest i will ever come to joining a call i'm so serious so um so this was three weeks in they had us maybe even a little bit more like a little bit further into it um but they had us like a line up in the basement and they would, they told us to put blindfolds on and they had

us, they called, like, they would scream at us. They would take their flashlights on their phones and they would like, they would like come up to us all we had like a blindfold on and it wasn't like a sleep mask blindfold. It was like a bandana. So you could kind of see through it. So like you're in the dark. You're freezing cold. And you. And you. are being screamed at by like 30 girls. I'm not even kidding. They would round up the whole sorority and bring them to the basement of this house and they're shining a light in your eyes like through a blindfold and they're screaming at you, degrading you, telling you that you're worthless and that they don't even like want you in their sorority and all of these things that are like so cruel.

Like, and you know, you're like, of course you're thinking to yourself, why am I doing this? But then the thing that stops you from leaving is you're like, well, they're going to blacklist me. And it's such, it's, it really is like such a cult. And once you're in it, you understand that it really is. And so you're like, well, I'm not going to drop because they really will. Like you believe that they will and they will. Did you ever have a thought while they were doing this to you of like, wait, when I make it through this, like, then I'm I'm going to have to be doing what they're doing?

A thousand percent. And I swore to myself, I was like, I am never, ever going to do this to any of your girl. Like, I am a cancer. Okay. I'm very sensitive. And I just, like, could not picture myself, like, being cruel to other girls. Like, for any reason, like, not in this way. It's so intense.

Like, the things that they say to you are so cruel. They're personal. They're cruel. they're just like terrible and you're so again you're so impressionable at that age and so you're like is this true is this what people like think of me like like is this what at all of them think of me like um you know what i mean and so it it really like um like does a number on your confidence and it confuses you and it really manipulates you um and again it really is like a cult and i was a thousand percent I'm thinking.

Yeah. I can't believe like that they do this and I can't, I'm not going to be able to do this. Right. Because I was going to say it's like you could almost convince yourself like, okay, if I can just keep getting through this, but then it's like you never really get through it because it's like then you're on the other side of it and you're still not happy on that side. Exactly. So okay, I'll get into that.

Okay. I wanted to mention that at this time like between I want to say like 2010 and 2015, there was for some reason, and I don't know if this was just in New York or like the tri-state area or something, but there was like this weird like influx of like hearing cases on the news about sorority and fraternity hazing and people getting in trouble for them for doing that. But more specifically, and this is horrible, fraternity brothers like hazing their pledges until they died. So it would be like either alcohol poisoning, somebody fell down the stairs and hit their head somehow, things like that. And there was a weird like influx at that time. And and I remember like I remember my mom watching it on the news and being like, oh my God, that's horrible.

Like how tragic. I mean like these kids are 18, 19 years old and their parents are grieving. You know what I mean? Because because they wanted a social life. Yeah. And I do remember like hearing that and being like, oh my God, that's awful. But sororities don't do that. Like, you know what I mean? They would never put you like in danger like that. Like guys are just more hardcore.

They do stupid things. You know what I mean? But like I said, there was a weird like influx in those cases. I remember hearing it on like the news. So just to go back to. being in the basement with these girls like screaming at you, like degrading you, saying horrible shit. So it was like a, and this, this became every single night. So it was like a couple nights of that. And then after a couple nights, um, it became like even more intense. They would be like,

they would make you do like calisthenics, like scream at you, tell you you you're fat or whatever. And, you know, then the next thing after that was they would get buckets of ice cold, like, freezing cold water. And I mean, this is like upstate New York, like Albany, like in, I think it was like February. And they were like, they would make you like do these exercises. And as you're doing the exercises, they were just pouring this like freezing cold water on you. in the basement where it's even colder and you're just like freezing and you're miserable and they're screaming at you and this was for like hours like hours it could be like you know two or three hours um they would just take turns like some of them would go upstairs because there are so many of them so um

you know just it was just horrible and then after the freezing cold water that was like a couple nights of that and then there was like rotten food that was the next thing so they would dump like rotten food all over all over us like and it wasn't just like if you didn't do something or if you did it wrong um they were just screaming at you again you're lined up in the basement the blindfold they're just screaming at you like throwing things at you throwing eggs at you like rotten eggs like pouring shit all over you and it smelled so awful and it's like what if i'm like wearing my ugs like you know what i mean like all of your clothes are destroyed i mean destroyed and And you never know, like, what's coming next.

You don't know what to expect. So at this point, like, mentally, you're just, like, breaking down. The next thing after that, so, like, again, this was happening every single night. The next thing after that was the houses, they are, like, very old. They have, like, these outdoor, like, screened in porches. And they would, they were, like, you guys, like, go home tonight and, like, pack a bag. for like a week or two and come back here and you're going to be staying here with us. Like you're not going back to your dorm.

You're living downtown for the next two weeks and the only reason you're going to go uptown is to go to your classes. So we did as they said and we all packed a bag and we went down there and they made us sleep on the porch every single night like in like I'm trying to. trying to remember, I think one of my Pledge sisters, for some reason, had like a sleeping bag, but the rest of us, we just, like, laid down, like a, like a fleece blanket and we were just, like, sleeping on the fucking porch in the middle of February, like, in upstate New York. Yeah, that's terrible.

It was like, literally, it was like... Torture. Yeah, it was, like, torture. And we were just, I just remember being, like, I have no idea, like, how I'm even going to, like, get through the night. Like, I'm freezing to death. Like, I'm freezing. I literally, I can't do this anymore.

And like, it was just awful. It was just terrible. I really don't even know how I got through that. I think I just like hung in there. I would like warm up like my socks on like the like radiator inside. And then I'd like bring them out. I would have, I was wearing like, I don't even know, like four layers. Like we were all wearing like four layers.

And one of our like, like, like one of the pledge sisters I had, like she had, um, she found this heater or maybe she brought it from her dorm or something. And she would like, like, she plugged it in inside and she brought it like to the, to the door to like where the porch is. And, um, like, we would all like fight over the heater. Yeah. And this is, it was just extremely traumatizing. I'm sure I can't I wouldn't have made it through yeah and and again like again looking back I'm just like what the hell was I thinking like who cares about a social life why was I sleeping on the fucking porch you know like but of course even you're that age you just you don't see it that way

and clearly they didn't see it that way either none of them dropped out they were all just like in it like we were all just like in it in conjunction with all this stuff they would make us like do a lot of learning. So this is beside all of the stuff that we do have to, mind you, all this stuff is going on. Well, I have like class. You know what I mean? And I'm supposed to be doing my homework and things like that. And it was just, it was so hard to manage.

I wasn't even going to my classes. I was completely, I wasn't doing any of my work. Like I was literally just trying to survive. And it was awful. It was just terrible. So basically they had us, in addition to our schoolwork that we were supposed to be doing, they had us like learn all this history about the sorority. They would quiz us.

So sometimes when we're in the basement and they were like hazing us, they would like quiz us on like the information we were supposed to know about the sorority. We would have to know all of the lineages, which is basically when you're in a sorority, you get a big sister. Their big, your big sister has a big sister. they have a big sister. You have to know the first and last names of those girls going back like, I don't even know, maybe like 12 or 15 like pledge classes.

So it's a crazy amount of information. It's impossible to know this. But you're so scared into learning it that you're just like, okay. You know? And honestly, there are names that I still remember to this day. That I'm like, this is useless information. Yeah, they ingrained it in your brain, though. Yeah, it's bizarre.

It's like crazy. I remember we're sleeping on the porch. And at that point, we were like close to like crossing. Crossing. So I remember the next like the next and really like the last like really intense thing that we had to do was they again, every night we get lined up in the basement. they lined us up and they would be like they would be like okay like they're screaming at us they'd be like fall in your face and you're like what what do you mean and they're like literally

put your hands by your side and fall on your body like fall on your face and we would we were just confused like and they're like screaming at us to do it so we're literally they make you like flop on the floor like a fish like you literally fall down on the front side of your body but react like it's like a normal human reaction to put your hands up so that you don't hit your face and break your nose and um so if we did that they would like scream at us and of course we're going to do that because like no one's going to break their face we were like all like bruised up and like we had to do this every night and then they started putting like things on the floor that we had to fall on. And, like, I remember it was like potato chips.

And then I feel like they put something else on. Fucking Legos. Probably. That's like the worst thing, like stepping on Legos or something. Oh my God. Whatever it was, it was wildly painful. Yeah. And of course, it's already painful because you're like, you're bruised. Like you're bruised up from the night before. And you're getting awful sleep. It's literally torture. It's literally, fucking torture. And then I remember at some point, we crossed and it was just all over. And it was like, they liked you again. Yeah, they liked us again. Was it like a switch like that? Like a switch you guys crossed, they were fine with you? Yep, they're fine with you. And they're like, we didn't mean any of the things we said. And they're like, they're like, you know, we just had to do it. Yeah. And yeah, exactly. And they're

reflecting back on like all the specific moments and they were like it's just it's the most cult like thing in the world and it's happening everywhere and no one knows it. Yeah. It's so crazy. I mean, if it's anything like my pledging experience, then it is actually like that. Hey guys, this show and episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com slash insane and get on your way to being your best self. As we step into 2024, we are all looking for ways to be the absolute best version of ourselves, whether we are trying to work out more, eat better, work harder in life. All of these things are resolutions that people have, but something that I would like to suggest to you all to implement into this new year is to

start therapy, start talking to somebody because there is no way to be. better challenge yourself and strengthen your mindset, your mental, your emotional health, then with therapy. I think that a lot of times when people hear therapy, they think that they need some sort of intense trauma or something needs to be going wrong in their life. And that is not true at all. I think that it is so important to always have someone to speak to and open up to that has a completely unbiased opinion on your life. I am somebody that personally never did therapy growing up. I never thought that I needed it. And I even tried going to a couple therapists in person a few times and didn't really enjoy it, didn't find to get much out of it. But I then heard about

BetterHelp online therapy. And I thought, why not give it another try? I'm getting older now. I'm trying to learn better coping mechanisms, set some boundaries in my life. And like I said, just have somebody to really open up to and listen to me and to talk to. So that being said, if you are somebody that is looking to start therapy, you should definitely consider to give BetterHelp a try. In my opinion, the best part about BetterHelp is that it is entirely online and it is designed to be convenient to your schedule and super flexible. All that you have to do to get started is fill out a brief questionnaire and you will be assigned with a professional licensed therapist and if for any reason you don't hit it off with that therapist or you want to

switch, you are able to switch and do so at any time. Celebrate the progress you've already made. Visit betterhelp.com slash insane today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash insane. Now back to today's episode. So again, I don't know this until I'm a sister because as a pledge, you're completely in a dark about everything. Right. Like, but there are rules to hazing and quote unquote tradition and the process, that's what they

call it. And so basically the pledge class before hours. So the girls who most recently crossed, they are not allowed to haze until, you know, the class after them crosses over. Okay. Then the girls after them, they can haze them and do whatever they want. They're honestly, I can't remember because there's so many rules and it was so long ago, but there's a hierarchy and it goes like by seniority. So it depends how many semesters you've been in the sorority. And that tells you how hard you're allowed to haze. It restricts some of the things you're allowed to say.

Some of the favors and errands you're allowed to ask the pledges to do. And when you're pledging, the first night that you're pledging. So that first night that they had us like sit in the dark room, They explain to you that you're going to have two pledge moms. I think there's three pledge moms. One of them is nice to you and the other two are mean to you. So while you're going through this process, which makes it even more confusing for you and harder to drop out, is you have the girls who had just crossed being nice to you.

You have one of your pledge moms being nice to you. And the other two are the meanest to you. So they're the most cruel. They ask for the most favors. They essentially like call the shots on your process. They make decisions. There's there's so much. I mean, I can't even remember.

There's so much that happens during the process. They have events at night where they make you like, they split you guys up and they try to get you to turn on your pledge sisters. And if you do it, you're wrong. If you don't do it, you're wrong. And either way, you get punished by something, you know, they do something awful. And so again, the manipulation tactics are like hard at work because you have some of the girls being nice to you and giving you sympathy and empathy. and then the rest of them are like being terrible to you.

Anyway, so that just adds to, you know, the manipulation, I think. That's just worth mentioning. So after we crossed, they throw you like a huge party and they, I think they make you drink. there was one event where they made us drink they like forced us they buy you like a bottle and they just like kind of like encourage you to drink like hard like you know what I mean and until you're like either passed out or you're just like you're throwing up or you fall asleep or whatever um and then after that you're just like in and everything's great and you're you're living your life and you're like was it worth it like it feels worth it afterward but the trauma from all those things like is insane

I mean they use like military tactics right like to all for what for like a social group like an underground sorority like the the organization doesn't even do anything, you know? They're just like a, you can party with anyone, you know? So, okay, now we're in the sorority. They have like Greek week. They have like all these events. And we're going and like everyone like knows like all the fraternities know that like you guys just crossed and like everyone's like so nice to you. And it makes it feel very worth it. again. But when you reflect back, you're like, that was insane. Like for what? What did I do that for? So then it was the end of the semester. And I remember like looking at my grades and being like,

oh my God, like this is so bad. I didn't fail anything. But, you know, it's like you need to maintain a certain, you need to at least be getting like bees and Cs. So that the school doesn't contact your parents and it's like, hey, like we're, you know, we're, you know, we're putting. putting you on like some type of probation or something. And so I was like, okay, like, I'm going to have to like figure this out next semester because because now that I'm in the sorority, I don't know what's going to be expected of me. There's just thinking about how much those girls, like how much of their time they're giving to the pledge process, like I don't know how they had time to do anything else ever. So I remember like,

This was 2016. The summer came and like, we all like left Albany or went to Long Island, like, you know, my whole pledge class or whatever because we all lived there mostly. And we like hung out all summer. We had a great time and, you know, everything was all good. And then when the new semester started, we had like our first like chapter meeting. That's what it's called. when you have like a sorority like group meeting and every sister is like required to be there. They call it like chapter. And they were like, okay, we're going to explain to you guys what your job is. So everyone needs to pick a job. There's like there's social.

There's like rush, which is like those two. I'm pretty sure you are basically. like organizing mixers. Mixers are like when you have a party with another, like with a fraternity, and you have to pick themes for them. And all of this is organized so that you can recruit other girls. So that's essentially like the purpose of it is you're trying to beat out other sororities so that you can make your sorority look the most appealing to all of the rushes. the girls who are coming in, who you're looking to recruit. Got it.

And so, like, as they're explaining this to me, like I said earlier, like, it's very, like, predatory. Like, they have you look up, like, girls' Instagrams before, like, their social medias. You're, like, essentially, like, poaching them, kind of. So you know who, you know what these girls look like that you want. you because you joined this like incoming freshmen like Facebook group like that's what they had us do as like join those groups so that we could like seek out who are the prettiest girls who are the girls who are you know where did they come from like you know do their families have money

stuff like that and so you're seeking out these girls you're like looking for you know your friend requesting them on Instagram um and you're already like getting a jump start so that once they come to the university they move in you can kind of be like hey like I know you you know and persuade them to join the organization so they go through they tell us that you know they assign us that job like we're mostly all supposed to be like rushing girls and um there were like other jobs that I'm sorry I can't like remember that you know involved like being the one to like purchase alcohol, being the one to like make the drinks, like the jungle juice, stuff like that.

But mostly I remember like having to rush girls. That was like the job. And they told us that when we, when, you know, when these girls pledged this next semester, since you guys had just crossed, you're not allowed to haze them. The only time that you're allowed to haze them is the last like couple. I think it was the last next. night, but like right before they cross because that's like the most intense, like, horrible night. And that's the only time because they have to feel as though like you've turned on them.

And like, like, that's going to make them feel like awful. You know what I mean? Like that's going to make them hit like rock bottom and then right. Right. Right. Exactly. So those were like the rules for us. But they really, really pushed it.

like the upperclassmen like really pushed us to recruit these girls. And they're like, you know, we have to work twice as hard because we're like an underground organization. We weren't able to like get back on campus yet because, you know, because they had gotten in trouble for hazing like previously. And basically they were saying like, you know, we have to work like twice as hard because these other sororities have more to offer. And I remember we had like all of these like mixers. We were like making friends with these girls. girls that was like the only thing that that was like the most important thing that we had to do eventually we got like a group of girls together and um we made their pledge class like it was like a group of

like eight or seven or something which is like pretty big compared to like most even six was big for like us because the the process is so hard that girls like don't make it through and so these girls were pledging. I think there was like seven or eight of them. And then a bunch of them dropped because they were just like, this is way too intense. Like this isn't what we're expecting. Because again, like, you know, you reel them in. And then you just like, you have to just like drop this bomb on them when they start like pledging. And so as a as a newly cross member, like our job was to really like oversee and learn like what the older girls were doing and the upperclassmen. Um, I. And, And again, we weren't allowed to haze.

We were supposed to, like, help them be there for, like, moral support and stuff like that. So these girls were going downtown every night. And the upperclassmen were, like, really, really going hard on them. Like, like, even harder than they went on us. And, like, just in terms of humiliation, like, they would, like, they were drawing on their faces. They were taking, like, these, like, really compromising, like, videos of them and stuff like that. There was never any, like, sexual things. I think that's like a big misconception that, well, I mean, I can't speak for any other sororities, but for us, there was never any, like, sexual requirement.

Like, we didn't have to do anything like that. It was more so, like, degradation and, like, humiliation and stuff. And I remember there were only, like, four girls left in this pledge class at the end of the process. And I really wasn't around for most of it because I was. just doing other things. Like I was going out every night. I mean, I was going out Tuesday, Thursday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I really wasn't doing like any work.

Like I wasn't doing, I was barely going to my classes. I was sleeping every day until like, I don't even know, like 1 p.m. Like my sleep schedule was so fucked up. And again, this is so like normalized because all my, all the other girls in the store do doing the same thing. They're all like, you know, sleeping this late. They're going out until 4 a.m. They're, you know, drinking way too much, like taking pills, like stuff like that, just partying way too hard. Like, and it just catches up to you. I mean, I remember feeling like this semester that I got arrested, which was this semester, the fall of 2016, I was so depressed.

Like my brain chemistry was just so off. Like I was like struggling to like to like get a grip on my like my grades. Like I was just had prioritized like my social life like way too much. And I was just like showing. And you know, just everything had become about like my social life. And so again, I wasn't really around to see these girls but like to see them pledge and stuff. but I remember the couple times that I did see them. Like, I remember group me was a big thing back then, like that app group me.

And it was like they would, we had like so many different sorority group chats like with different members of them and stuff. They would like send videos of the girls and what they were doing to them and like they would like laugh about it. And at this point, I was just very like indifferent because you almost like forget the trauma of what happened. because you're like having a good time and you're just like doing other things. Yeah. But you also are just like, well, I don't really want to be like mean or anything like that. But you also just don't care because you're like, well, I did it. I got through it.

It's fine. They'll be fine. Right. You know what I mean? Which is a horrible way to think about it. And so after that, they were coming to the end of their pledge process. So there was a requirement that we had to be there the night that they crossed because we were supposed to haze them.

and they're like you have to haze them you literally have to that's a requirement for being in this organization if you guys choose not to haze them that night you're disassociated from the organization and so it's kind of like well i have to because because i worked so hard for this and and even though it's destroying my life i'm having so much fun you know what i mean and okay so that night came and the house they were living in at the time in downtown Albany that they would always haze the girls in because one of the houses always had to have a basement so how it works is like the houses are typically two stories and I for the most part I remember there were like three or four bedrooms on the first floor and three or four bedrooms on the second floor a lot of times if for some

reason they couldn't have like get the whole house rented because maybe girls had already rented upstairs or downstairs but it was in a really great location they would only rent half the house like the sorority members would only rent half the house so i remember this one house was in a good location that's why they had rented it but they only had the bottom floor and the basement and the girls upstairs who weren't part of the sorority. They had the upstairs and the attic. They had a separate entrance. So the night that this pledge class after me was crossing came. And again, we were required to be there. Otherwise, we would essentially like forego our membership in the sorority. And we went there. We were like in the basement, like watching them get hate.

by the upper classmen and stuff like that. And a lot of the, like basically when they require you to haze them, you're really just yelling at them. You're like, you're like just screaming at them. You're making them do like exercises. And I think if you want, you can like crack eggs over their head. You could like pour stuff on them, stuff like that. So all of my pledge sisters went, I think except. for one. And after they went, they would just like go back upstairs, like, relax and stuff.

And this was, it was like it had been my turn. So I went and then one other girl. And there were only like a couple of us left in the basement with the pledges. And all the other girls were upstairs. So this had been going on for hours. Like we had these girls in the basement for like, I don't know, like four hours, three hours. And it was like 11 o'clock on like a Wednesday night, you know what I mean, or 12 or honestly, maybe it was even later. It might have been like one or something. And I remember that my pledge sister was in the middle of like yelling at these girls. And all of a sudden, like we hear, like we couldn't hear anything.

because the way that they had set it up is that the first floor, they blast music so that the people outside of the house and upstairs can't hear what's going on in the basement. Because again, there's a lot of like screaming. So this was part of like the process or this was part of the like the way that they set things up. Like for some reason, this was all very thought out. But obviously it wasn't thought out well enough because all of a sudden my pledge just. like yelling at these girls and we just hear like everybody put your hands up and they were like all of a sudden there are people behind us like screaming at us and we were all like so confused so we turn around and there's like 10 police officers like behind us and we're like what the fuck is happening like

And so we all just like put our hands up. They have their like guns drawn and everything. And they're like, what is going on here? Like, oh, what is happening? And we're like, what is happening? Like here. Like, what are you doing here? And they cuff us all.

And they take us down, even further downtown, right? Because this is like downtown. Yeah. But the police station is further downtown. So they take us downtown and all of us are just like have no idea what's going on. Like we're all very frazzled. Like we're like, what the fuck is happening? It turns out that hazing is a misdemeanor in the state of New York.

And we're at the police station for like hours. And they're just talking to all of us like individually. And they're like, what is happening? What were you guys doing? and I didn't know what to say. I had no idea what to say. I was just like, we're doing a sorority ritual. And they're just like, it was the most bizarre thing.

Like, because I was just so frazzled. Like, I was like, I didn't know whether to feel like I was about to be like in really big trouble or if this was just like a laugh. thing. And they were, I didn't even know why they were arresting me. If they were arresting me, they like read us our rights when they had cuffed us and everything. And I was just so confused. So they took us downtown. They were questioning us, like individually. And they eventually got it sorted out and they figured out what was going on. One of the girls who was a pledge, she had had an allergic reaction to a dairy product.

Again, when they were like dumping things on us when we're pledges, it was like bad food. So I don't know if they dumped bad food on her and she had some type of like she got a rash. It wasn't like a life-threatening thing, but she had broken out with something. So they charged all like I think there were seven of us that they arrested. There were seven sorority members and like the four pledges. And obviously they got let go because they were like victims. And we were charged with hazing, like three counts of hazing and one count of like endangerment or something. This was a while ago.

And because this girl, I guess it was they charged us with a more aggressive, like offense because this girl had broken out and she was having allergic reaction. So, um, so all of a sudden, like, you know, we're, we're in this like police, this, like, uh, I'm sorry. Yeah, we're in a police station. And, um, and they, after they questioned us separately, they put us back together. And, um, they were like, you guys, like, I remember them, like, being really aggressive with us. They were like yelling at us. They were being really mean to us. They were scaring the shit out of us.

But I remember being like, this is just going to blow over. There's no way that this is going to be like a real crime. Like, you know what I mean? And it wound up definitely being a real crime. I remember this one woman, female cop, she was like, you know you guys are going to be like all over the news tomorrow, right? and I was like, no, what are you talking about? I'm like, she's just trying to scare us. These are like police tactics, like things like that.

And she was right because I had, I was 19. I had no idea how police and media work. I had no idea. I had never gone arrested for anything. I'd never really done anything like substantially wrong. I remember they had let us go after they charged. us because they there was no bail or anything like that but they said we had to appear in court the next morning like really early um so this i mean they had us downtown for like maybe like

three hours just questioning all of us you know doing paperwork stuff like that and the police station was like freezing that's all i remember is just being so cold i just want to go home and like go to sleep like I had no idea that this was a punishable offense like as serious as it was yeah and um so they let us go we went home and we got like two hours of sleep and then we had to go back we had to be at court in the morning so we went to court the next day and this was the first time that I had actually seen like reporters and and I was like what the hell are they doing? Like me and my two pledge sisters who were like also in it, you know, they had gotten arrested

to, we were like staring at them and we were like, what the hell are they taking pictures of? And they were taking pictures of us because we were about to be like all over the news. And I was like, like we were like running away from these cameras like into the courthouse. And they were like formally charging us. that's what it was. Did other pledge sisters or like the girls above you that hazed you guys, did they get arrested or in trouble too or just you guys because you were like there? It was a mix of us.

It was whoever was in the basement. Okay. But other than that, like other girls that were in the actual sorority, they got off. They were fine. Exactly. Yeah. They got off. And it was really just us who were in the basement.

I remember like some of my, some of the sisters were like hiding in the bathroom upstairs. We had no idea what was going on because this was like a whole event. There were like tons of cop cars on the street. I mean, and this was like other student housing was there. So of course you have all these other students like watching this happen. And they're just like taking us out to the police cars like one by one and we're like coughed. And they're like what the fuck is going on? Yeah.

So everyone is like, you know, buzzing about like what is happening right now in the middle of like, you know, downtown Albany. like it was so bizarre and because the only time that the police ever really like show up for anything is if there's a party you know what I mean and it's um so we wound up finding out that what happened is the girls upstairs heard what was happening downstairs like they heard screaming it sounded like violent and stuff like that um and they got scared and it was going on for hours so they had gotten scared they weren't again they weren't affiliated with any sorority so they were like normal people and they were like uh like should we like say something they weren't like really friends with the girls who lived in that house or any of us like we didn't really know them at all

so um they just they just called the cops I guess yeah because they didn't know what else to do and after after that the cops came and they heard the music but they also heard like all this screaming because it wasn't enough to like drown it out you know And it was going on for a long time. So they were knocking on the door, knocking on the door. But we couldn't hear them. And the girls who were even in the apartment upstairs, who had gone upstairs, couldn't hear them because of the music. So they kicked in the back door, which led, like, directly to the basement.

Got it. And I guess it was, like, a right of theirs to enter because they, you know, there could have been something dangerous going on. And that's how they found us, like, hazing these girls. I remember after we came, like, we went to court, we were coming out. Again, these, like, reporters are, like, chasing us. It was crazy. And had you talked to your parents yet? No, I hadn't said anything to my dad.

But I knew that, or my mom or my dad, but I remember that, there was I was like I'm going to have to say something at some point I just I don't know how bad this is yet so I don't want to tell them anything I don't have to tell them maybe this will like blow over maybe maybe this will just go away like I was just hoping and praying and it definitely didn't there it became a huge huge thing and I remember like that day I just went home and after we went to court and I just slept for like, I don't even know, like 12 hours. And then I remember waking up and at some point, like after I woke up, this actually this girl who had gotten arrested with me, she woke me up and she's like, because I was like staying

with her just for like that time. And she was like Monica like, like you have to see this. Like this is literally like all over the news right now. And this was like the most traumatizing thing out of this whole thing. I mean, not even pledging could have prepared me for the trauma of like public humiliation. And it's such a strange thing to get in trouble for because it's it's like a lot of people see it and they're like, oh my God, that's like hilarious. Or they're like, that's so stupid.

Or most people are like, why were you doing that? Like that's disturbing. You know what I mean? There were like my mug shop was like all over the place. Like I remember my uncle in Arizona. He called me at some point and he was like, I saw you on the news. Oh my God. It was like a national story for some reason.

And it was so sensationalized in the media. And the worst part about it though that I have to say is that the police, what they had told the media was not right. They were saying that we were like dumping urine on them. We were dumping like shit all over them and stuff like that. But at the same time, like it's like how can I possibly defend myself? Yeah. When, you know, you're caught in a situation like that and you're part of an organization that does that. You, they did it.

They kind of did that to you. You know what I mean? Like obviously they weren't dumping that on us. But like, you know, there's just no, you don't have like a leg to stand on to defend. yourself and this was blasted like all over the place for like I don't even know like maybe like four or five days this was like like like people were like everyone that I knew was contacting me and they were like oh my god like what happened um and I just I just never wanted to have any type of like attention like that you know what I mean I'm I'm very like as much as I love being social and stuff

I'm private. Like whatever I choose to put on social media, like, it's like well thought out. Like, you know what I mean? I don't like to go like blasting my shit all over Facebook or whatever. Like this was just so bad for me. Like it was just this was the worst part of all of it because it's like, you know, you get arrested for something. You get in trouble.

You need to hire a lawyer. Like, you know what I mean? But when you have your mugshot on the internet and there are like art. written about you and your name, which I have a name that's that's very uncommon. So it's like, you know, there's no way to reverse that. There's no coming back from that. And it's like, we live in a world where everyone's like, everyone Googles you. You know what you mean? I Google everyone. And if you don't Google people, you should. You know what I mean? So it was just so fucking traumatizing because now it's like everyone I know thinks that I'm dumping like piss and shit all over

Right, it's such a negative. Yeah, it's just it was just the most insane thing ever. And it was like one of those things where you're like, I literally can't believe this is happening right now. Like this can't be. Right. So after this girl wakes me up and tells me that this story in like less than 24 hours is literally everywhere. And I'm talking like Long Island is a very small place. So the fact that it was like on News 12, like Long Island, like everyone is seeing that.

Like everyone who I know knows. You know what I mean? People from high school know. All my friends' moms know. All my whole family knows. There's no like getting away from it. And it was just like for some reason it was a huge story. Just going back to what I said earlier.

Like at this like for a couple years like this. topic was like very sensationalized in the media. It was like, um, very like intriguing to people because they were, they were like seeing what Greek life kind of was and like how kids were getting hazed. Like, you know what do you mean? And the things that they would have to do. And, and of course, like, you know, anything that leaves like a little bit of mystery, I feel like people are drawn to and they're attracted to. They're like, oh, like, what's that about? So, you know, that's definitely part of it. Why people are interested in. knowing, you know, what goes on in these, like, hazing rituals and Greek life and college,

you know. But it was just a huge story. And I just, for that time in my life, like, for, I mean, a year after that probably, I just felt so, like, disconnected. Like, I just, I was so, like, lost. I was, like, I don't even know, like, what I'm going to do with my life now. Like, this is everywhere. So my dad, I remember I called my dad after I knew that it was like in the news because it was like, it's going to be better if I like tell my parents rather than if they like, you know, see it like themselves because they will. And I told him and he was of course like so, so upset.

And he was like, I send you to college to like go get a degree and like you're doing this. Like, what are you doing? You know? And my mom, my mom was more supportive, like, surprisingly because she was really strict when I was growing up. And, you know, she worked for an attorney and she was, like, trying to help me and stuff like that. But, you know, my dad was just so upset. We had to, like, get a lawyer.

We got, like, a high profile, like, a lawyer to deal with it because it really, it, like, takes on like a thing of its own like when a story's in the media and it makes me honestly after experiencing this I'm like just just the the inaccuracies you know because because to me it's my life and I feel like even though people may be like well what does it matter what you're dumping on them it doesn't matter you know what I mean like it like it's it's an awful thing to do like you're torturing these girls. Just though after seeing, you know, what it does to your life and reputation, when there's something horrible written about you in the media, it's, I just have such a newfound, like,

empathy for people who are in other situations, which are much worse, you know, because this is still something that an employer would maybe see, you know, and laugh at. But it's like people who are accused of murder, people who are accused of murder, people who are accused of, you know, poisoning their spouse or like, you know what I mean? Like, or or abusing their children or something like that. It just really makes you question like how much of it is real. And, you know. I was going to say to it kind of sucks because even though you were the one that was caught, like there were so many other people involved. There were so many other people involved. And like higher ups and not that, not that, you know, any of the levels per se matter. But

At the same time, it's like at one point, you were on the other side of it too. Like you were a victim, like one of those victims at one point. And like technically speaking, even though it's wrong, those victims and what are they pledges are trying to become what you are. Exactly. So like what I mean? It's so, that's I think what makes it kind of tough is like, yeah, you're getting in trouble for that.

But also like they were there by choice. I mean, not to like blame anybody, but I'm just saying. No, yeah, absolutely. But it just, it just sucks because I feel like, I'm sure the articles just completely are like focused on you guys and being the worst of the worst. For sure. That's exactly how it was. And just so many of the different things coming together, like that being one of them,

the fact that, you know, there were so many other people involved, I didn't do any of the hazing the whole semester. You know what I mean? I was just there. I was essentially just there. You know, I had yelled at the girls like. the once that night. And it was just just like a perfect storm for me. Like it was just all these bad things that kind of came together that formed the situation. And and now I just felt like every

like my life was ruined. And I was like, I was just so lost. Like I really just had no direction. I was like, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. Like, you know, just the public humiliation and the embarrassment of like of of of the articles being written my mug shop being posted everywhere everyone knowing like what happened but not knowing the correct details not knowing the story behind it not knowing that I went through this too you know what I mean right and what are you going to do explain it to everybody yeah like it was just it was just so crazy like um and I just felt so like shorted by life I was like, oh my God, like, I just can't believe this happened.

Right. And I was so young that I had no idea how to really deal with it correctly. And I think one of the worst things that happened, aside from, you know, that came out of this situation. Like, the girls who were the upperclassmen who didn't get in trouble, it was like, it felt like everyone just like scattered. Like there was no sisterhood So after that Like after that whole news thing broke Was that sorority I'm assuming done?

Oh yeah So we were just like done Okay Everyone in the sorority was done The pledges Who obviously they're not going to like lie to the police So the police got all of the information

They were like Who's in the sorority? Who have you been talking to Or being hazed by? You know what I mean? Like what's the real story? Like break it down for us I mean they had them come

like three times, I think, just to interview them, to see, like, what actually happened, you know? And so these girls were, like, telling their story. And the police kind of shared that information with the school. So, obviously, you know, the headlines are, like, Ualbany, sorority, like, hazing scandal. And so the university, like, emailed us all right away. And they're like, you know, you're suspended until further notice or whatever. We had suspended too. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So they suspended us like immediately. They didn't even, they were like, we don't need to know what's going on. We don't need to know who did what. Like you're all just like suspended. They suspended every single person who was like affiliated with the sorority. So even the girls who didn't get arrested.

They were like, get out. Yeah. And they had like a hearing for us. like a couple weeks later. So we all like went into the school and we were in this huge like conference room. And they were trying to, they had like three like judges and they were trying to determine whether or not we did what we were accused of by the school. So the school was bringing charges against us like to validate suspension or expulsion.

And we had to show up. up you could bring an attorney but it's like you know I don't know um I didn't bring one I just brought my dad um and uh and you know they were just asking us questions but it was like a trial it was like the craziest thing I they do that to other students when they get caught like plagiarizing and stuff like that but there's so many things that I didn't know until this event happened in my life so aside from that um you know I remember uh I had to come home right after that because, you know, if you're suspended or expelled, you can't live in the dorms.

So they had told us like get our shit and leave. But you were, did you get expelled or just suspended? We got suspended. Like I got suspended. I think they temporarily suspended all of us until the hearing. And then after the hearing, they would determine whether or not we would be let back into the school, suspended temporarily or expelled. Okay.

So. And if you get expelled from a college. you have to disclose it on other college applications, whether you get suspended or expelled. So it's like it makes it harder to go back to school, which is sucks. I had to like move all my stuff out, bring everything home and just kind of wait for the school to make their decision. But I was like, I'm not going back there anyway. Like this is, I think this happened in like November that we got arrested. It happened like the middle of November. Right. So, um, I was, like I'm not going back to finish the semester.

So you didn't even want to? No. Okay. Because I was like, everyone knows what happened. Right. It's, this is like a catastrophic event. Like I'm not going back there. What am I going to do there?

Just like, you know. And it was just so embarrassing. It was like the girls who weren't involved or didn't want to be involved. Girls that had graduated because they, they introduce you like, you know, before and after you cross, they introduce you to. the alumni who were in the sorority who will come back to visit just to like party and have fun and meet you and stuff like that um all of those girls like did i like there was nothing from any of them they all just like it was just like everyone scattered after that like so you would ever really

talk to any of the other ones no like it was and and it just was so clear to me that i had made such a mistake. And like none of these people were actually your friends. Yeah. No one was ever your friend. Like no one was ever your friend because if they were, they really wouldn't have been able to do what they did to you in the first place. Right. And honestly, like it was just so telling because again, you're still like you're still in that cult mentality where you're like, I'm part of something that other people could never understand. You know what I mean? You think that you're part of something so important. You think that, you know, everyone wants to be in your position, things like that. And that they don't, if they don't, they don't understand. And they, you know, they never will.

Yeah. And it was just so wild to see the lack of support after my life was literally like turned upside down. I hope you understand the gravity of this revelation because it was so, it felt so real. Yeah. Like it felt like I did this for a reason. These girls were like. friends. We were sisters for life. They were going to be my bridesmaids. You know, the whole nine. Like, um, and it just, it wasn't like that. It was almost like they didn't want to be associated with you if knowing like what happened. And I think too, it's something that you can't really even beat yourself up over because there's so many people that want to go into a sorority. And I think that movies and shows they do idolize it a lot. And they,

make it seem like something that's so fun and it creates this community and everybody wants to be a part of a community. And while, yeah, as people we technically know right from wrong, there are points in our life where we are more naive or, and that's not even to make an excuse, but like I said, I think it's important to recognize you were on both sides of it. Yeah. And I mean, you wanted to be a part of something, you know? And it's like so many people, I'm sure, have done it or I've experienced it. And I'm not one that ever judges. But I just feel like it's part of your story.

And obviously now you're older and you know like looking back I would never make that decision again. Even besides like being on the flip side of it, like I feel like even being the victim of it. Like we kind of look back at when we're at a certain age and we finally found ourselves and we have our friends and our boyfriend and all this stuff. It's we no longer feel the need to do things like that. But there's a lot of people that.

do feel the need to do anything to just have that sense of friendship and support. That's all people want. Yeah, yeah. You know, honestly, like, I'm sure you understand this growing up as an holy child. It's very possible to exist without other people's validation. And, like, if you've been doing it, you're going to be fine. You know what I mean? And the thing is, too, is I think you're talking about it not only shares your journey

and experience and obviously hearing it is so. interesting and intriguing, but it also kind of serves a purpose that if anybody is thinking about it, they have another opinion. You know what I mean? I'm sure that there are some that are fine and good, but then there's a lot that aren't. So it's important to know what that comes with and to know kind of from like an older and wiser mind that it's not worth it looking back on it. And I think that that's really important because I mean, who do you really talk to if you don't know people that have been in one? Right. That are like older. Like you said, maybe if you had an older sister that already kind of went through it. It was like, nah, don't even waste your time. You never know.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know what it is too? I think that there are so many, like even girls who have joined and the majority of them who have like made it through school and, you know, graduated and you know, maybe they, whether they talk to those girls still or not, I think that they don't really understand the harm because those relationships weren't really like put. to the test ever. Obviously, like, hazing is not a normal thing to do. Like, you shouldn't have to get hazed if you're, you know, joining a team or, you know, joining an organization or anything like that. But, you know, people who have made it through to the other side, they're like, oh, yeah, I was hazed in a sorority in college or whatever it is. But again, those relationships were

never put to the test where it was kind of like what would happen if an event like this happened where you know you were getting in trouble like how would the would these girls be there to support me regardless of whether or not um there was a risk of like you know they felt like they might get into trouble further or whatever it was you know what I mean like would they be there to support me when my life is upside down you know what I mean and it was just so apparent to me that I had joined like the wrong group of people right or you know and of course if I can go you know do it over again I wouldn't join any group because they all haze they really do and and again it's so normalized in that community so like among the fraternities and

sororities and their members like everyone hazes at that school and at most schools you know it's important I think to talk about it too because there are a lot of stories unfortunately where people it does lead to death and people do die and just because they want to be a part of something so bad. And it's sad because it's so preventable. You know what I mean? And I think that's why it's so important to talk about too. Yeah, for sure.

Definitely. And it's sad that people are willing to risk their lives to be a part of something that, like you said, doesn't even actually contain true friends or support. Yeah. I mean, it just, it's like it just showed itself to me. Like, you know what I mean? Like the true colors of all these girls who I thought were my friends, to be honest with you. And I mean, there are girls who were like who, you know, I thought we were like close or had like at least like a relationship.

And I mean, I never heard from them again after this happened. I didn't hear from them when it happened. Like they weren't like not like, are you okay? Are you all right? like what's going on like how could you possibly like say that's a sisterhood or anything like that not to mention like the things that were being again the things that were being said in the media didn't contain the whole truth and they were viral like at the time and so you know what I what I also want to go into is the fact that like this is something that I'm dealing with today

still like i mean this is like what eight years ago now like almost 10 years ago like i literally will have to deal with this for forever like because you know it's something that is out there now and so what happened when we went to court is that um we essentially all got our own lawyers we couldn't like share any lawyers or anything like that any of the girls who got arrested but what happened was we all like got community service and it was kind of like dismissed after that so it's no longer on our records which is great but again it's still like all over the internet so it's also just so crazy how we live in a world where like you can have a clean record but what's out there about you you know, it's still out there and it matters more. You know what I mean? After I came back from

school, after I was suspended and I was like awaiting this hearing or whatever, I feel like I just, you know, I did feel really lost, but I think my mind just kind of went into overdrive and I just started like trying to repair my life like in every way I possibly could. So, I enrolled in like a community college on Long Island. And I wound up going there for two years. After that, I went to Hofstra, which is a university. And I, you know, I decided like once I came home that I was going to work because I was like, you know, I need to get a job. I need to like straighten out my life.

I need to get a job. I need to go back to school, like, just as soon as possible before I, like, lose the, you know, ability to, like, want to go back because I know that happens to a lot of people. And I was definitely in, like, a depressive state where I was, like, if I don't, like, push myself right now, like, this is just going to, like, get worse and worse. You know what I mean? Like, this isn't going to fix itself. I found a job.

And that's just kind of what I've been doing, like, ever since. and I really just like never looked back. I mean, this whole thing has been like, like, you know, I think about this all the time because it's out there. I think about what happened and how traumatizing it was. And I think about how one day I'll probably like lose a job that I really want because these things are out there about me and there's nothing that I can do. I've tried to get it buried.

I've tried to get it scrub from the internet. There's nothing that I can do. So I also just kind of feel like if I'm not able to do that, I should come on a podcast like yours and just kind of, you know, share my story. And speak about it. Yeah. Yeah, that's the only like good that I feel like can come from it because it's not going to go away. Right.

And I think too, like even if it's not exactly this, I feel like it gives people that reality. check of every decision we make, even if we are young and naive, but every decision we make can have an outcome like that, especially nowadays because everything is so revolved around the internet and social media. And it's important to kind of, it is important to kind of double think what we do and the decisions that we make. And it's important because it doesn't go away. It's like, we can't do anything. It's like even if you scrub everything, it could somewhere be like somewhere tucked away somewhere. Yeah, absolutely.

And it's It happened. Yeah. And it sucks. And I think that, I mean, we also live in a world on the flip side where you don't have to explain yourself to anybody and you learned from what happened and you're going to keep it pushing. And yeah, there is a chance that it might prevent you from having a job that you want.

I mean, shit, my naked body's online. I can't get jobs that I want. You know what I mean one day? So it's like, but we, it's part of life and it's part of our journey. and the thing is, is I always say everything happens for a reason and it gives us more knowledge and it gives us more experience.

And even though it was a very negative thing and it sheds a negative light, now you're turning it into something so positive and you're doing everything that you can now, like you said. Like you're not just saying, oh, fuck it, I did that and I'm walking away from it. Like it happened. You did your best to turn your life around

and now that you're a little older and wiser, you're able to reflect on it and educate about it. and also hopefully prevent it from happening to someone else. Yeah. You know what I mean? Absolutely. I remember like I think it was like maybe a couple, like the first job that I got after

I came back from Albany after I was kicked out essentially. Like I worked with a girl or a woman and she had like a daughter who's a teenager. And I remember I told her my story and she was like, oh my God, like she was just very shocked. by it because it had just happened you know what I mean and she was like thank you like so much for sharing this with me because like this stuff matters to me like I have a teenage daughter who's going to be going to college and like this is a great thing to like tell her and help her understand I think um the other thing that I got out of this is just um kind of being able to really digest the fact that um once something happens to you

it becomes a part of you. And I think a lot of things in life don't show us that unless, you know, we're forced to see it. We don't see it. So this is a great example of how it reminds me that like when something happens to you, it's a part of your life. You know what I mean? Like I think a lot of times we go through things or we make bad decisions and we try to kind of like bury them. And it really is just, you know, this is one of those things.

things that just reminds me that you just have to embrace, you have to embrace the decisions that you've made and learn from them. And sometimes you have to admit that you made the wrong decision and that you are willing to learn from it. Yeah. And coming out of something, it can either make or break you. Yeah. So at that point, like, there's nothing you can do to change the past. Yeah. You shouldn't regret anything because it's part of life and regret just leads us to spiraling nonstop, which isn't going to help anything. So I think allowing it to help you and help others is the best that you can do. Yeah, exactly.

That's the only good that can come out of that. For sure. No, and you did such a great job seriously of explaining yourself. And I want you to know, like I am not, like I said, I really am not somebody that judges anything that anybody does. And I think that it's important that you don't ever, I don't know if you do or not, but you don't beat yourself up over it because it's something, like everyone does things in their life that they don't they're not proud of right it's fine yeah you know i i think i

definitely will learn that on my own too because because there was so many times like of course when something bad happens you're like um no matter how bad it is sometimes it's really bad and other times it's just like oh like why did i do that um but it's like you know you want to go back and you you're like yeah you can't spend your whole life driving yourself insane like and i can't express that enough. Like I would tell everybody that if I could, like, instead of dwelling on what you did or what you could have done, just spend the rest of your days, like, being the best version of yourself and making yourself and the people around you, like, their lives better. It's all you can do. Yeah. That's it. Yeah, absolutely. You're so right. I know.

I know. I'm just kidding. I really think that this is like such an important topic because it is glorified so much that it's important to know like the reality because not have the things. we see is not, like in movies is not what it's actually like in real life. Yeah, not at all. I think it's important. People know the consequences and they know that if they make a decision to go into a sorority or fraternity, like things like this can happen. Yeah, definitely.

And if that's a decision you're going to make, just be prepared. I know. That's it, you know? Yeah. But not everybody knows that. They really do, because they really do just go, my God, my stomach. They really do just go into it thinking that it's something positive. And it's that it's this group that they're going to get.

So yeah. But you did, you did amazing. And thank you so much for wanting to come on and share your story. I really appreciate it so much. Thank you so much. You did so good. Thanks.