We're All Insane - Daughter of a Killer

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

#foryou #podcast #ad  Feel like your best self again. Visit https://forhers.com/insane to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you.  -We're All Insane Plus for Bonus Episodes, Ad-Free Listening, Access to New Show, Guided Mediations:  https://wereallinsane.com  - OFFICIAL MERCH NOW AVAILABLE - code INSANE10 gets you 10% off for a limited time - Join We’re All Insane Mailing List for EXCLUSIVE Content + Discounts  Karah was raised by strong single women after her father went to prison when she was just three months old, Karah opens up about the beauty and the chaos of her childhood — from family love and resilience to addiction, prison sentences, and unimaginable challenges. She shares what it was like navigating life with an incarcerated parent, becoming a mother at 19, and ultimately choosing to rise above the hand she was dealt. Karah's Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/karah.koger?mibextid=wwXIfr&rdid=pxXWf8WnZTeDmVsC&share_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fshare%2F1AityJVwwj%2F%3Fmibextid%3DwwXIfr Instagram: karah-koger  TikTok: @motomom263 If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me Devorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. Well, hello. My name is Kara and I am from a small town called Orangeboro, Kentucky. And I am here to kind of just explain my story and my childhood and just to bring awareness to children with incarcerated parents. And any child that has to grow up, you know, maybe not in a great home setting, so to speak, or childhood trauma, you know, and whatever face that might look like for them. I'm going to tell the story. I guess I'm going to go. I guess I'm going to

go into it with all the like brutal things that may have happened at first, because that's going to kind of set the tone of how the whole storyline plays out, how it affected my mom, how it infected my dad, and how it affected my two brothers. So I am the baby girl of two older brothers who I absolutely adore. I think the world of my brothers. They have been my true real-life heroes, honestly. I don't know where I would be without both of them and to know what we have had to go through and for them to know what they have seen a little bit more firsthand maybe than I have. And to see how they are today is a mac, it's beautiful. It is the most, I can't, I don't, sometimes I can't even put into words like how much, because I just, I'm still in awe. I still

step back, I'm like, oh my gosh, wow. Yeah. That's amazing. Yes. So my dad was in prison my whole life for 32 years. I'll be 33 next month. He was in and out of prison. And he actually recently died. It was a year ago, around about a year ago. And I, unfortunately, did not get to make a men's meet with him either. So, but that's okay. It's all good. But like I said, I'm going to start back to the beginning and kind of let's what I'm going to set the tone and then we'll go into this. And you're probably about to answer this anyway if you're about to start at the beginning.

But so when you were born, he was already in prison. Yes. Okay. So when he had went to prison when I was three months old. Okay. I was three months old. My brother was five and my other brother was 10 years old. And my mom, and it was my mom.

Growing up, my mom never lied to us. My dad went to prison for manslaughter self-defense. So that's where it all started. I'm going to go into the kind of person my dad was. My dad loved to live life on the edge. He loved the vast life. But anything that thrilled him, anything that may have brought him adrenaline, anything from what I've been told, he went after.

My dad was, my dad never really had like a normal job, so to speak. My dad was heavily into maybe some things that aren't considered normal by any means in like a better terms. My dad was a very big drug dealer. Got it. Very big drug dealer. So my mom, so all the stories that I have been told my whole life, my mom told me that just, just that my dad was just on drugs and probably, about two years before I was born, he just kind of went crazy, that he was going wild, he wasn't coming home, he wasn't finding nothing good that was offered to him. He was running

around and cheating on my mom a lot. My mom, you know, was working, taking care of two boys and was pregnant. So I'm going to start off with like the night that my dad had committed, I guess, the murder. lack of better terms. So, and I'm going to start off with the very day, because I do know that like my heart. So they wake up, my family does, and it's a normal day. My brothers go to school and my mom comes back home and gets ready, is getting ready for work. My dad is not home at the time. My dad isn't home at the time.

And he pops up. So my brother Ryan had told me he remembers this specifically. that he remembers my dad arriving home that day because he had went to school, which was just right down the street from where we lived. And he heard, like, my dad's car and, like, heard the tires. And he said, I just remember looking outside the window at Philpott Elementary School, and he knew something was bad. And he told me, he said, Kara, I kept calling home that day.

I kept calling home. I knew and nobody was answering. So to, right, just to jump right back into it, my dad gets home and it's mid-morning and mom said he's just going off. Like he's going crazy, which I'm sure is from coming off of drugs, from detoxing, this, that, and the third. So my dad gets into it with my mom and my mom is like fighting back, just trying to get away from him so she can finish getting ready for work. And then he pulls a gun out on her. And mind you, I was on the bed. I was three months old.

So he held my mom at gunpoint the morning that this happened. So my mom said she remembers being in the kitchen rolling her hair. And the next thing she knows, she's down on the ground. And he has the gun pointed into her stomach. She said that she was under the gun. I can't remember how long, but it was a couple of hours. It was a couple of hours. He was just holding her down there.

He was just holding her down there. He was like, had her stuff. he was straddled on top of her and just I can't remember what what was the discussion behind that but she remembers telling me she because I had talked to her I'm like mom like what had happened that day like what were you know this that yeah figuring out what was going on and she said Kara I just kept praying she said I just kept praying and I kept telling them hey Dwight I love you why are you doing this I love you we have kids like don't do this what are you doing, we're going to get out of it, everything's going to be okay. I'm going to back up a little bit

and start off with saying that my dad never got a fair chance, in my opinion, at life. Because I remember asking my mom, why are all of his brothers and sisters so successful, but he couldn't be? And she said, Kara, he was hit by a car when he was three years old, and it caused him to have lifelong epilepsy. epilepsy. And ever since then, he was not treated well at all. And then there was one time I know that my mom said my dad, I'm sorry, my grandpa had showed up at home. And my dad was like tied to the tree because he was being bad. His like mom kept him, you know, tied to the tree because she couldn't handle him. So and it's just, I think that's kind of where his background wasn't great. right yeah and then he gets you know like i said earlier he gets involved in some

shit that you get too far into that has power that has so much power you can't get out of it knowing how much you want to get out of it yeah you are too far into the game so to speak you there's there's no coming back so back so back to the day that this happened, mind you, the night prior. My brother remembers my dad coming home, and he had two-thirds of a million dollars laid out on the kitchen table on counters. And I think what had happened was that's when my dad realized there was some money missing, a significant amount of money, because that has what I've been told my whole life is that it was, the murder happened because of money.

There was missing money. And then once I got older, figured out drugs were involved as well. And my brother told me, he said, Kara, I remember looking at the table and seeing that money. And he said, he picked some money up and he threw it at my dad. And he said, get out of our house. This is double.

We don't need your double money. Like, what are you doing at 10 years old? Right. Okay. Like, so back to the day, he's holding my mom at my gunpoint. sorry, I know it's going to do it. I'm following along perfect.

I'll tell you if I'm ever not or if it's getting confusing. And I know it's hard to not jump back and forth because it's like you're trying to make sure you get like backstory but also, you know, fill us in with like what's happening. It makes sense. You're good. And that's what. Yep. That's what it is.

Yeah. And honestly, it doesn't matter. If that's how it plays out in your head, tell us in your head. Exactly. I'm like at this point, this is right. A basket case of a story. But guess what? It's a beautiful story as well.

Right. Thank you. Of course. And then, yeah, the night that that happened, the money. And I'm thinking that's when, I guess, probably the decision was made or my dad was advised by a certain group of people that, hey, you need a, it's time that you do this or you're not going to have a life. You can take your pick. So he had my mom pin down to the ground with the pistol. And my mom for like an hour and a half, she said that she managed.

to wiggle herself to the back door of our house. And she said that she started kicking the back door with her foot in hopes that our neighbors that are still her neighbors to this day would see it. So the phone starts ringing. And I assume that's Ryan calling because he had been calling from school the whole morning. And my mom looked at my dad and said, Hey, Dwight, you really need to answer the phone because that's my mom looking for Kara. because my mom was going to take me down there on her way to work.

Looking for caro, you need to answer it. So my dad answers the phone. And my mom said that she's just keeping her eyes on him the whole time. She is just watching him. She said because she knew as soon as he got his eyes off of her, she was going to run. Sure enough, he gets on the phone. And it was her brother, I think maybe. it was definitely somebody that was close to her. And sure enough, he had turned his head. And he was able to, he had turned his head and he was able to, my mom was able to run. So my mom runs out of the back door. And she said that he goes to the back door and he is following her with the gun. And her plan was she was just going to bust through our neighbor's house. And she said that she was hiding between trees.

and so she could miss a bullet. Could you fucking imagine? Could you fucking imagine being in that situation and happen to fear for you your life? You have a newborn baby on the bed. Your mom's looking for you. Your job's looking for you.

And it's survival mode. Yeah. You fucking hit the ground running. You don't think twice about it. And she did that. And I'm like, even still to this day, look at her and I'm like, you are the strongest woman I have ever met in my entire life. So my mom busts through our neighbor's door and tells my neighbor what happens.

My neighbor walks over there. I think that's when he grabbed me. He went up to my dad and said, hey, get out of here. Whatever you got, just go. Just leave. My dad leaves. So that day, and my mom did not call the cops. I wonder often why she didn't call the cops.

I was going to ask you, how were they, did they have a good relationship other than obviously that, but like prior to that, how was their relationship together? Yeah, no. My mom said she loved him. My mom said that she loved him and they had so much fun together. They, a little insight about them. They loved fashion. They loved different like outfits. They loved going to dinner parties. They, they were just like your ultimate, your ultimate couple and family. Yeah. So that situation, do you think it was just kind of like, Did she say it was a one-off type of situation or did things like that happen sometimes? It definitely was definitely a one-off situation that prior to that she knew he was going downhill for a couple of years. But she didn't know it was going to be this bad. Right, because I was going to say maybe she didn't call the cops because it was still so surprising and shocking to her in a sense.

Yeah. You know, like even if she had an idea in her mind like, oh, things are going downhill, I mean, if you love somebody and you do have so many things that you enjoy doing with them, I think it's kind of like, you don't, you know what I mean? Yeah. I feel like you have that internal battle of do I call to protect myself or my kids or do I say maybe he's just really going through it, you know? Right.

To the extreme. Right. But it's like, it's so you can't put yourself in the position unless you're like in it, I feel like with things like that. It's so easy for people, I think in general, like when they hear stories to be like, why don't you do this or that? And it's like, especially when you're in shock too.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. It's hard. It's very hard. And to want to do the,

the reason I guess we do and don't things is because for the bigger picture. Yeah. Right. And to get an understanding. Like you want to understand. Your brain wants to be able to wrap it around things. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So she did not call the cops. After a school was out, the boys were out. and she had grabbed me and the boys, and we went down and stayed with my memo. I'm going to say this much. I was raised by my memoir, and I love her so much.

She did such a good job. And it wasn't because my mom was a bad mom. It wasn't because my mom had, you know, issues or any kind of, like, anything that she was facing. It's because my mom had to work six days a week. Busy. My mom had to provide for three kids. And she did that, she did that to the, to the core.

So I have a lot of respect for my mom. Sometimes I think that she doesn't understand that. But the way that I look at her and I'm like, bow down to her because of the shit that you've been through, I mean, I don't know. I don't really see how anybody could, you know what I mean? So the day that that happened, we're down at my grandmas. And it's probably two o'clock in the morning. My mom gets a phone call from downtown, and they're like, hey, go, can you come down here?

We want to ask you some questions. And she said, is, this is a fake name, Joe, dead. And all they said was, you have to come down to the station. And she said she knew instantly what had happened. So she gets down to the station, and she's being interviewed, and it's a female. detective and the first thing the female detectives, she tells me this more than once. So this moment for her was definitely something powerful for whatever reason that may be. But the detective had sat down and said, I'm just going to let you know that you're always

going to remember the truth. You're never going to remember a lie. And my mom said, I have no reason at all to lie to you. So that's when they told her that my dad had killed Joe. okay so that's where that's where everything goes down south so from what i know and mind you i'm three months old so i don't know well i wasn't there didn't witness the first brutal part of this so i'm under the impression that my dad after everything i went down with my mom that morning he had figured out who had taken the money money being joe joe taking the money and so my dad

bust into his house. He sneaks into his house that night. And I'm not really sure what happened, but they start, they get into a fight. Huge altercation. My dad, I thought he was stabbed in, and this same night, I thought my dad was stabbed a bunch of times, but it was actually a couple weeks prior to that. He was stabbed for whatever reason, a bunch of times. And I'm thinking that it was still had to do with the money and Joe and the drugs and then just the people that in the groups. Right. The involvement. Yes, that he was in. So whatever happens, I don't know, my dad, I don't really know what happened in that situation. But so the story that I was told and the oppression that I was under is that, well, the reason why my dad got away with manslaughter and not

murder was because the crime scene was so bad, somebody wasn't going to make it out a lot. This came out, I'm sure, in court during the trial, but Joe actually had a huge cork board and pieces of paper on how he was going to kill my dad. I forgot to mention this. I forgot to mention this. I knew I was going to do this. Also, leading up to this, either a month, a couple weeks prior to this, Joe was found underneath our house. So Joe had one night, we're all at home. Joe had came underneath our house, underneath our cross space, and was like listening and was like hiding underneath there for a couple of hours. And the next day my mom said Joe had came back and shows up and my dad's not.

there. And my mom lets them in. And my mom's like, why are you here? Hey, you know, Dwight's not here. Why are you here? And he had said something about my dad had a pair of ostrich boots. That my dad, I mean, I even still remember these ostrich boots after he got out of prison. But he actually went to my dad's closet and got these boots. And my mom was like, what are you doing? Like, you need to go. You need to leave. You need to go. My kids are here. Dwight's going to find out you're here. This is not going to be good. And he tried to kiss my mom.

And my mom was like, please leave. Well, that's when assuming my dad had found all that out. I'm not quite sure what exactly like the moment up to it, but it's just like the general idea of everything. It's a new year. And if we're being honest, a lot of us don't feel like ourselves anymore. Stress, trauma, survival mode. It all shows up in the body. And weight management can feel especially overwhelming when you've already been carrying so much.

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I'm Anna Garcia, host of True Crime News, the podcast. Every week we bring you in-depth coverage on cases making headlines, as well as those that go under the radar. Tune in for murders that defy explanation, mystery seeking exploration, and shocking secrets that will leave you breathless. Each week, we honor the victims by going beyond the salacious in our search for justice. Crime never stops, and neither do we. Listen to True Crime News available now wherever you get your podcasts. That happened and the night that it happened. The crime scene was so bad.

Somebody wasn't going to make it out alive. They actually had found my dad shot halfway in a lake, but he was alive. So I'm not really sure what happened. I'm not sure about the fighting or what even led up to that. How my dad did it, don't have a clue, but he was found shot and Joe was dead. So then my dad, that is when my dad got sentenced to, I think it was 12 years, 13 years for manslaughter self-defense. And then that's where, that's where my life starts. That's where the crazy mess starts.

That's where all the daddy issues start. That's where all the beautiful mess starts. So the only, this is South Side. The only, I mean, that's a bad word. the first time I've ever seen my dad in prison was in prison the first time I ever had to meet my dad was in prison my dad goes to prison my mom's left with a three-month-old a five-year-old and a 10-year-old little boy

and she's like what do I do so my mom just works again my mom's working six to seven days a week non-stop I know that she worked that much because she had to provide but I also sometimes wonder, did my mom work so much to numb everything? You know what I mean? Did she work so much to get away from everything? I'm not sure if she'll ever even answer that question either.

You know what I mean? Because I don't know if she even still knows that answer. But the first memory I have of going to the prison was pretty, pretty crazy. Very scary. Very scary. I just remember they have. had to pill me off of my brother and my mom had to peel me off of it the first time that I went.

And I think a couple other times, meeting my dad in prison for the first time, did a bunch of wonders to me. I will say it leaves you with lifelong anxiety. It leaves you with lifelong being confused. It leaves you with lots of, lots of questions. and it also set you up for tons and tons of broken promises, years worth of broken promises. So I remember going into the prisons, to the prison.

So my dad was in federal prison the first time. I'm not going to say the name of that or anything. So I'll just keep that out. But into Kentucky, he was still in the state of Kentucky. So, and I remember when going into the prison and getting searched, I will never forget what, Every CO looked like. I will never forget what the guards look like.

And one thing that I don't remember being there is my mom being in the room with me. I do not remember being searched with my mom in there or brothers, nothing. So I don't know maybe because this was back in the early 90s. Was this what they did? Was it protocol? And what does the search consist of? I just remember just a simple like pat down. Your shoes, you have to take your shoes off.

I remember one time they didn't let me in because I didn't have a slip underneath, like, a longer skirt or a dress that I had was wearing. You had to always wear, like, baggy clothes. Like baggy clothes, they couldn't, like, have any writing on them. I just remembered it was just all we always wore just, like, basic clothes there. And then the search consisted of, like I said, just a quick pat down and then, like, taking our shoes off and stuff. So during the visits, I'll never forget those. either. It, okay, so this is also what I'm trying to figure out. How do you as a little girl go to this environment that is so fucking intimidating and scary? It's prison. It's clear. I'm sorry,

it's gray blocks. It's white walls. It's the most sterile thing in this world. The the vibes you get from prison, you just, it's such like, it almost takes, it almost sucks the life out of you. It's darkness. It's negativity. And your gut can feel the energy. It's bad energy. It is very, very bad energy.

And like, I think, too, you know, when you think of a child and the innocence of a child and how, you know, in your childhood, you have all these, like, you don't think about anything serious, you know? So I think being put into such a serious environment that is so scary and so intimidating and, you know, so dark, I think it makes sense how it could make a child feel like, you know, all their innocence is just being sucked out of them. Right. You're exactly right. Because so you are in this environment as a child and you are also having to meet the man that is your father. in this environment. Not only meeting the man that's your father,

but this man killed somebody. Right? So you're looking at this person, every visit that you go to, and you're thinking, how? How are you being nice to me? You think all these things.

You even think some fucked up shit. You even think, what were you thinking when you did that? What did that mean to you? Like, why did you? Like, why did do it. Do you regret it? Are you sorry? But when you're a child, you don't know how to ask those things. And quite frankly, I don't think you even realize you want to know those things until you are older. Yeah. Until you can realize like, hey, this is not what, this is not how this is supposed to go. This is not how this is, this is not what a normal family is like being set up.

I remember going into the prison to this specific one and only looking at a mural on the wall where families would like set down and take their picture together because it was the only happy thing in there. And I remember just like there was like rainbows and ladybugs and sunshines on it like your typical rainbows and unicorns. I just remember always looking at that. my dad wanted to be a good dad while he was in prison and mind you he did not get out until i was 13 my dad wanted to be a good dad and i know that firsthand because every phone call that i've received

every card that i have ever gotten every letter that i have gotten have always always said hello beautiful. That's what a dad is supposed to do to a daughter. Because to me, you know, as a dad, you're the one that sets the tone on how a woman is supposed to be treated. You're the one that sets the tone what a man is supposed to provide for a woman. You're the one that's supposed to set the tone of protection. You're the one that sets the tone for how fucked up this world is. You know, You're the one that is supposed to do all those things, right? And you question it every time you want to have such good innocent conversations with your, you know, parent that might be behind bars

because more than anything, you just want to get to know them. You want to know everything there is to know about them. But you, it's so hard to because it's almost like you don't hold a grudge necessarily. but you hold, you yearn, you yearn for the pure, genuine love that like a dad is supposed to give you, you know? And even when you're not at those visits, when you're not in the prison, the letters, the cards, the phone calls, he's promising he's going to do so much better. You know, he's promising when he gets out, our life is going to be everything we've ever dreamed of. you know and when you get that chance and you don't do it and you break those promises it cause very bitter feeling

and it's just like why why did you go against what you said why did you go against your promise just to simply being a dad that you're supposed to be like why did you go against that but as you get older you you learn to you have to be all those things on your own too you know So I remember visiting him in prison, and I hated it. I absolutely hated it. I don't even know if I would recommend any mother, maybe taking young children into prison because the setting alone, what it does in fact do to you later on in life.

You're never going to forget it, and you want to forget it so bad, you know? Yeah. But I understand why my mom did it. I understand why my mom. took us because she wanted so bad to continue to do the right thing. She wanted so badly. And it seems like she was very open with you guys. Yes, very, very open and very thankful that she was.

Because, you know, through life you meet people with the same, or you hear stories, you know, people about, well, their dad went to prison, their mom went to prison. and or you hear, well, I'm not going to tell them their daddy's just at work, mom's just at work. I don't think you need to do that. I don't think that's a good idea at all because you're eventually, that white lie that you tell children is eventually going to be broken. Like, you're eventually going to break their heart because they're eventually going to ask, why couldn't you tell me the truth? Because I've had to ask my mom a lot of those things too. So I'm going to go back to being in prison and all that good stuff.

He gets out. I go visit him. I can honestly remember it a handful of times. I think once I, you know, started to get a little bit older, started to develop this, the third, you know, hit puberty. I think that's when my mom all was like, okay, stop. Don't take her back. So for the first 13 years, it was a lot of hope. and promises made. During that 13 years, my childhood was so amazing. I had such a great

childhood with my Memo. My Memo had like 10 of us cousins down there every single day, every day in the summer. And even my mom's out of the family. They are the ones that truly supported us, that loved us, and not necessarily sheltered us, but they were just exactly that, like such a fucking support system that we needed. You know what I mean? And they, that was like our normal life when we were down in them all. So another problem that I think also where everything fucked up was so my dad woke up in prison after serving 13 years and went to bed in our home the very same night.

And you don't realize then what it could do. you're just excited dad's home. You're just excited. I finally have a dad here. I finally get to, you know, experience what it's like having a family. And you're so excited, right? I actually had went with one of my uncle, my uncle that did go pick him up. I actually went with him to go pick my dad up. And I remember the night before we went and got him, did not sleep. I was just thinking like, oh my God, what my life is going to change and I don't know how, you know. It's really, really hard to express the feelings that you have at that age and everything you've kind of just been through, you know. It's a huge adjustment.

It's a very big adjustment, yes. So for the first couple weeks, it was just odd. It was very, very odd. He almost did not know how to communicate with us. Well, in fact, he didn't know how to communicate with us. I just remembered he smiled a lot. I remember he was very calm. He was just very, very calm and just kind of stayed to himself.

We had went to Walmart, this for example of how, just as an example of how people do, in fact, get cell shock and they can't come out of it. We had went to Walmart one time, and he, like, did not shop with us. He had kept all his things separate from us. And didn't really just, like, even put his things in the same cart with us. And it's just little things like that, like, I remember. Just looking and like... So interesting.

Because, like, that mindset makes so much sense in that type of environment. But then, you know, it's like, it does go to show that you can't really just, like, snap out of it. Because that was his life. I mean, he was... I think when you're in prison, you still have that kind of, like, you're in survival mode. Yes, you are. You... I don't know how he was able to...

to keep such a straight-faced or like such a persona. Yeah. Like a strong, this isn't, because I would always ask him and he would call like, are you sad? Like, are you scared? Is there bad guys there? Like, what? Yeah.

You tell me what prison's like. And my dad never really elaborated on it. He never really got much into detail with it. And I think that was just because he was sheltering me in a sense. He was sheltering me in a way that I didn't quite understand. So growing, going back to my dad getting out of prison, and mind you, I'm going to back up from when I was a little girl, I hated daddy daughter dances. I don't know why I did, but I just remember they would decorate, like, the school gyms. And it was always so cute.

It was always, like, they just made it so exciting. And I remember like all of my friends sitting around and like talking about the dresses they were going to wear and the shoes they were going to wear and just. And I never got to go to a daddy daughter dance. I never got to experience that. And as a little girl, that that's a big, big thing. You know, you want to be able to do that with your dad. And you were so jealous of the girls that did get to. I remember being almost embarrassed when.

Absolutely. I was going to say he took the words out of my mouth. I remember being embarrassed. For the first, when he was in prison the first time, just always feeling embarrassed. It was to the point to where I wouldn't even tell people his real name. I would use, like, his name is Charles Dwight, and I would use Charles. He would go by Dwight that I was used Charles in hopes that nobody would pick up, you know, like who my dad was. I think, too, you know, as a child, if there's ever something that you can't do, I think in a circumstance or situation,

like that, naturally, it's like you don't, I feel like you don't really know many emotions and you don't understand really a lot of what's going on. So the first thing I think you jump to is embarrassment because technically in that situation, you're not fitting in. You know what I mean? Yes. You're not able to participate. And it hurts. I think it hurts. I think it feels, it's not embarrassing, but it feels embarrassing. Yes. Yes. And it's, I think for a child that's so difficult. It is. And another, So to not have anybody to be able to relate to. Yeah. When you have somebody in prison and as a child,

I had nobody that I could talk to that would understand. So the general feeling, the general emotion that I had from all this is I was just afraid of him. I was afraid of my dad. I was afraid of just everything as a whole. You know, I was just afraid of it. When he got out the first time, did you have any type of fear of him when he moved back in with you guys? Or were you just mainly excited? I had fear.

The fear didn't start until he started going down a rough path again. I was downright genuinely so happy. My brothers were so happy. It was such a happy moment. What about your mom? My mom was very excited. She was very happy as well. She had big hopes for my dad.

She genuinely did think that my dad took that time and changed, that my dad took that time and learned his lesson, that he did change for the better because, you know, her kids, why wouldn't you want to? Why wouldn't you want to do better because of your children that are at home? Why wouldn't you have a chance to not only get sober, a chance to rehabilitate yourself and a chance, you get a second chance. Because there's a lot of people that don't get that.

There's a lot of people that don't get a second chance. He did. So he's out. And for about six, he's okay for about six months. And then that's when the fighting started happening. I remember a lot, a lot of arguing and a lot of just bickering in, my house growing up in that time. That's when it started. My brothers, at the time, like I said, I was 13. My brothers were 24 and 18. Yeah, because two of us were still in school. So, like,

my oldest brother, like, for example, he was a huge car driver, like a race car driver, just local tracks and stuff. And I remember, like, my dad would put him in some shitty situations like, oh, hey, yeah, we're going to go to this race. Go ahead, get everything ready, do this, that, and the other, and it just not happened, right? It just didn't happen. My dad promised us a dog one time. I remember he promised us that he, I think this is when he started, let me back up. Okay, so about six months later, that's when he started getting on the drugs again. He had brought around, I will never forget his, this Pacific friend that he brought around. And we had talked about, like, the energy that prison can bring.

And then just how your intuition feels like your gut feeling. I remember the first time he came around, this man was up to no good. You could look at him in his eyes and just know, whoa, you're not a good person. Like, you have a black cloud following you nonetheless. And so my dad was, that's when he started staying away from the house a lot more often. We weren't seeing him as often. And if he was home, he was home for like 10 or 15 minutes, like 20 minutes. And we were like, what are you doing?

Like, what in the hell is going on? Well, I remember one day I came home from school. I was in middle school, got off the bus. And I walk into my house and my house is full of some pretty cringy dudes. And I'm like, where's my dad? because he's supposed to be home. My dad's nowhere to be found. And I'm like, what the fuck?

Where? Who are you? And I just kept saying, where's my dad? And I remember going over to my neighbors and just telling them like, hey, I don't know what's going on. But my dad has all these people in the house. He's not there. My mom's at work. And that was, you know, situations like that, if the fights at home ever got bad,

it was normal for me to run over to my neighbors. My mom raised me, like, on the weekends and stuff. I did stay with my mom and in the childhood home during school, like the school week. So I could go to school. So then that happened. I walked in. There was all these dudes. So it was probably about two weeks after that.

I had walked in. And my dad is stirring a pot on the stove. And it had no smell. And I'm like, what is he doing? And he just kept stirring. the shit for hours. And I didn't know for sure what it was then, but I knew what it was. Again, my gut was telling me he's making drugs. Like, that's what he's doing. And come to find out that's exactly what he was doing in our home when my mom was at work. So, and it was a bunch of just

little, it was shit like that, you know, growing up. It was horrible. Some things that caused, it was just a lot of fighting, a lot of arguing, a lot of hate that came into the home from the time he got on, started using again. Me and my, actually, my brother and I, when he came back home, because my dad didn't hold up the end of the deal, you know, because my dad didn't go to work, because he didn't help my mom out with the bills or anything like that, that caused one of my brothers to literally have to use a bathroom as a bedroom. Like, he did not, we didn't have a huge house grown up. And him and my other brother, they shared a room until I was old enough to where I, you know, they couldn't anymore or relationships happened, this like that. And my brother, he used the bathroom a lot as a bedroom and just for, like, privacy and stuff. And, you know, my dad, like, still didn't even take the initiative to care.

You know, he still didn't take the initiative. Nothing went off on him and thought, wow. you know, this, this is not right. Or like, I want better for them. I want better for them. That never, honest to God, it never registered in his mind. I can't remember if this was before or after the bust. Hi guys, it's me, Devorah.

I am so excited to finally share this with you all. I've officially launched a new subscription channel called We're All Insane Plus, where inside you will get access to never before heard bonus episodes. all podcast episodes completely commercial free. And my brand new show, We're All Healing, where I sit down with experts, therapists, authors, and healers to talk about how we actually process pain, reconnect with our true selves, and rebuild after trauma.

You can subscribe to We're All Insane Plus in app on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or you can head over to we're allinsane.com to learn more. Hi guys, it's me, Devorah. The We're All Insane merch store is officially open. I've been working so hard on this line and really made it with you in mind. And I'm so excited. We have totes, tumblers, sweatshirts, and my personal favorite, the crew necks with the matching sweatpants.

And let me just tell you, they are so comfortable and so soft. It is my favorite thing to wear. And the colors are so cute. This is my very first launch and we only printed a limited amount. So once it is gone, it's gone. So make sure you head to We're Allinsane.com and grab yours today. So one of my brothers was a, he never like did drugs or anything. He never even really drank alcohol.

So like anytime he needed money or anything, like when my dad was out, he would give my brother money, like without it. I did have a brother who struggled a lot with addiction growing up. He, I remember he was very, very young, even when he just started smoking marijuana for the first time. He was maybe 12 or 13, like maybe 12, if not younger. And at this time, this was when my brother was kind of starting to spiral out of control a little bit. That's when even more trauma happened at home.

So my dad had gave my brother, my brother had asked my dad for money. Hi. And had my brother had asked my dad for money. This brother did. And my dad literally gave him dope a bag of drugs and said, okay, go sell it and you can keep everything. Yeah. So it was probably in that that right there that caused my brother to also like getting into addiction. You know, he was 14, 15, maybe even 16 at the time.

And your dad's telling you, hey, you want some money, go sell some drugs. That's how you get your money. And again, in such a short amount of time when we're thinking that everything is going to be okay, it's whiplash. I mean, we're trying to stay above, you know. So I remember one day I was in middle school and I had this same like intuition. I feel like that something wasn't right going on at home. And nights at home and days at home were getting worse and worse with the fighting and the yelling and him just being completely strung out, just being completely out of it.

Like my dad never went back to work when he got out of prison. He never did the right thing. He in hindsight got out. he was okay and went right back to the streets. So I remember being in middle school. And that morning, it was, and this was when my mom was still married to my dad. My mom was at work, and my oldest brother was at home. He was 23 at the time.

And this was when, like, it was confirmed that, hey, dad's a drug addict or, hey, dad's going down. He's doing some bad shit again. So it was my oldest brother at home. and my dad. Well, my dad had, at the time when this happened, something out in the field that was covered. And that very same day, the National Guard was flying around and seen what my dad had covered. It was an, I don't know if I can say this, so this can be up to you. It was in hydras tanks without farm tags on them covered with the scrubs.

obviously you're making meth. So they catch it in the field and they bust in my home. They bust in the house. My brother and this brother is the one who doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke, he doesn't do drugs, he is just a clean cut dude, was 23 years old and got woke up in his bed

by two SWAT team officers on each side getting thrown into the back of a police car, not knowing what the fuck is going on. And he said our house was swarmed. He said the yard was swarmed with every law enforcement officer that you could possibly imagine. So. Bless you.

Right. So they pop in my house and they get my dad. And my dad in the moment is telling him like, hey, I'm not telling you guys like, where anything is at all. Like you're, I obviously know why you're here. Take the tanks. Like I'm not telling anything else.

So, oh, I'm sorry about that. Here we go. My dad's like, okay, so my dad's in one car and one cop car. And my brother is in the other. The other, they keep them separate. And my brother said the whole time he was hot. He was just like, what the hell is going on? So they come into the house and they demolish everything.

But at that point, legally, they can. They have the documentation to do. so. They showed no mercy. They took everything out of the cabinets. They emptied the drawers out in our dressers. They kept them out. Our house was demolished. So they're going on in that. I think the raid last two to three hours, if that. So they demolished the house. And at that point, they get to the point to where they are getting ready to cut open our furniture. And that's when, my dad stopped them and said, like, hey, no more. Like, I'll tell you where everything is. No more. And they got like 20 grand and cash from my dad and they found like 30 pounds of pot.

But really, they were after my dad because of the antihistress that they had found in the field. So me and this is how badass my mom is. So my neighbor calls the same neighbors I've been talking about. Bless them. Bless both of them. And they're amazing people and definitely have saved us. from a lot of shit. They were calling my mom, and my mom was at work. My mom left work at like 1 o'clock in the afternoon. We were getting off the bus probably about 4. She goes into the, she goes to work after.

At this point, my dad's arrested, and my brother gets cleared. Everything's normal. They leave the house a mess. So my neighbor calls my mom and is like, hey, you know, blah, blah, this, that, and the other. and my mom said, let me know when they leave. So my mom went home and the neighbor went over there. I think she did.

I think the neighbor went over there and helped her clean our house. I walk in and our house is fucking spotless. I had, we had no idea what happened. Yeah. We had absolutely no idea what happened until probably about a couple days afterwards. My mom left work and went home and cleaned it out and cleaned the house out. to keep us that much more protected, so to speak. And that's when everything kind of kicked off to with my other brother's addiction.

So my dad had went to county jail for maybe a year or two. I can't remember really because that's when I was like, okay, I'm never going to get the father. This isn't going to be the father and daughter relationship that I've yearned for for so long. Yes, the hope was gone. And so, of course, I'm a teenager and I'm just trying to stay afloat, right? I'm trying to stay afloat. I'm trying to be a normal person. I'm trying to just move on from it.

I'm trying to just move past from it. I'm trying to let it go and accept it for what it is, right? So this is when my mom divorces him and this when my mom divorces him. And he, I think he's homeless. for maybe about a year or so. I can't remember where he was exactly. He ends up getting remarried to a woman that I have no idea who this woman is. I didn't know her name, nothing.

And he was, in fact, on drugs again, just like super, just super fucked up every time we saw him. He would show up randomly. He had showed up randomly one time at our house. I'll never forget. I was, I don't know, maybe about 17, 16. 16, 17, and it was a summer. It was a summer day. It was a beautiful, beautiful day. My brother was going through some things and just facing some issues and was just having a rough day that day. And I guess maybe he had called my dad. I don't really know what got my dad back out to our house.

I don't know why he showed up. My dad showed up and he was, there was these two people with them. And I had, obviously, they were strangers. They're not great people. And my brother goes outside and my mom runs out after my brother and I don't know what was going on. I just remember I go outside and my dad is beating the living fuck out of my brother. Like beating him to pieces. And I did not know what to do. So I just ran to my neighbor to my other neighbor's house and about probably about two or three minutes after I was outside just watching this. And my mom knew not to get too close to the situation.

but she was like throwing rocks at my dad to get them to stop. And I told my friend, I was like, we have to go back. I have, like, I got to go see my brother make sure he's okay. So I ran back like through the yard, just ran back over there. And when I ran over there, my other brother popped up. Out of nowhere. Nobody called him. Nobody told him what was going on.

Nothing. He comes out. He gets my dad off of my other brother, beats the hell out of him, throws him in the car, and said, leave, leave us alone, get away from us. So for, again, for about a year, our dad was, like, terrorizing us. He was making our life a living hell every chance he could get. And you're a grown-ass man, you're a dad, and beating the shit out of your son. Like, you're too far gone. Way too far gone.

So my brother, Ryan, that's, okay, whatever, yeah, Ryan, my brother was able to get my dad off of him. And he, I did not see my dad for a while. I didn't see him for a while. So it was, was pregnant. Okay, I didn't see my dad for a while. He had called me once or twice. And then I remembered, I answered and I was like, hey, I'm out. You've done nothing. wreck my childhood life. You have done nothing but make broken promises that you didn't keep. You didn't do anything that you were supposed to do. It's best that you stay out of my life. Because I want to, at that point, I wanted to just kind of remove him and go one. I kind of... You wanted to heal from it. So bad.

Yeah, I think you, it seems like as any child would, you held on to the idea of him getting his shit together and stepping up to the plate and being the dad that you wanted and needed. And he didn't. And I think that it gets to a point where, like you said, you almost become bitter towards the person because you're like, you're just making it worse for yourself, you know? It's like it was better if they just were gone. Yes. Rather than continuing to just come and disappoint and disappoint.

Yes. Just stay away. Just stay away. So I had gotten pregnant. I was, yeah, I was 18 at the time. I got pregnant. And that alone, as such a young girl, you know, and never really knowing what a father figure is,

knowing that alone is so scary. It was the scariest day of my, it was the best day. It ended up being one of the best days of my life, yes, but it was so scary to take one. So we don't see my dad for a couple years. And my brothers at this point had also kind of just like cut him off and kind of just what I wanted to do, just like let it go and leave us alone. And maybe down the line we can make amends me.

And this is just what's best. So I remember my memo at the time had called me. She had called me and I'm assuming she called my brothers as well. and she said, hey Kara, I think you need to come down here. You need to read something in the newspaper. And I'm like, well, what is it? You know, like, what could it pop? Why can't you just tell me?

She's like, no, come down here. I want to tell you in person rather than over the phone. And I went down there and it had our last name, sentenced to 25 years to life. And I was like, what did he do? what did he do now come to find out he had kidnapped his wife he was married to and she had taken a bunch of money from him and he they were I guess they had a shared checking account and she took all the money and he had went and he had no money one day and it was it was a significant amount of money that was in this account.

And he kidnapped her. Handcuffed her to his car. Come to find out, she was, at the time I was working or involved with the police because they knew everything. Yeah. They caught it right there, heard everything. And so my dad, at that point,

gets sentenced to 25 years to life. And I'm like, what do you do? What in the hell do at that point? You know what I mean? It's like, do I ignore it? Because I almost did. I almost ignore it. Okay, don't care.

Like he's nothing to me. He's dead to me. He's nothing to me. And I was like, still hoping, still just wanting my dad there, just wanting so bad to maybe even, maybe if he hears me talk to him, he'll do this for me. He'll listen to me. No, it didn't do anything. So I'm like, what do I do? Well, after I read the newspaper, I went down to the county jail where he was still at, and I went and saw him.

And I hadn't seen him for like two years after that. And I wasn't showing at the time, so he didn't know that I was pregnant. And I would never forget just looking at him. And you could tell through the glass. And I had never really seen my dad through a glass. They was always in prison, so I had set down visits with them when I was younger. and he just looked like he could not face me, you know? It looked like he could not look at me in my eyes because of what he did.

It's like he knew that I felt a certain type of way about. He knew the disappointment I had when I looked across from that man. And I think in that moment, that's when I felt like he really did want to be a dad. I think that's when it started to, okay, he's starting to be sorry. Maybe he was sorry. Maybe he's always been sorry. Maybe he's never had the chance to really tell me everything that he needed to say. So that's when it all started because I was like, you know, this is fucked up.

He's in prison or he's going back to prison. He has nobody to talk to. He's in jail right now. He's nobody. So I went and saw him and I just remember the look on his face, the shock on his face. He was very disappointed in seeing me. So he had got his sentencing for the 25 years and he was actually getting ready to get shipped off. At this point, I think I had went and saw him maybe a few more times while I was pregnant.

I remember the first time when my belly, my baby bump was showing and he was just, smiling ear to ear. Like he was so happy for me. He was so happy for me. And I just remember going to see him a few times. And I remember he got his sentencing to get sent away again to prison. And I didn't express this to anybody, but I was like, man, I would love if he could just see my son, just see him one time. And to come to find out, I got lucky enough. And when I was, was able to let him see my son through the glass like a week before he got sent off. Like it was very quick. So he goes to prison again.

So everything that had happened in my childhood, everything that you have to learn when you're young, dealing with all that kind of stuff came back. You know, it came right back. while I was trying to be a first time mom. And you're like, you're so torn, right? It's like the world's playing tug of war with you and you don't know what to do. So I remember just telling myself, I'm a mom now.

I'm going to be above. I forgive him. Everything that he's done, all the hardships, everything that he's gone through, I forgive him. So I'm really going to kick off a relationship with them. So at the time that's when, at this point, we were, because used to back in the 90s, you couldn't get on an email or a FaceTime call with anybody. You know, it was straight through the mail. It was a phone call.

And now they have all kinds of different apps that you can get on and they're able to do like FaceTime phone conversations with you. Like a Zoom type of thing? Yes, yeah. And you are able to send emails back. So, of course, I was just, like, texting. So there, and this was very short-lived. This, this, I want to say it was a true, genuine relationship with my dad when he was back in prison, serving his sentence.

It was a very true genuine relationship. I remember telling him, like, updates about my son, you know. I remember just, like, talking to him and trying to get to know him. And then it's almost like a flip or switch just flipped. You know what I mean? It's like he didn't care anymore because I didn't hear from him as much. He quit emailing me back. He quit calling me.

He quit just not asking about me. And, you know, in that moment you're like, shit. You know, I thought we were getting somewhere and you can't do this anymore. Like you're going away. I think it's just conflicting because, you know, you have your younger self and the child you that just wants a parent, whether it's a mom or a dad. You know, there's, that's another thing. People can probably relate to this that have a situation with their mom. You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be only a father figure. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. You know, and I think it's

conflicting because when your child, you are innocent, you want that parent there and you want, I think you, even your first love comes from a parent. And when you feel that neglect, and like they aren't showing up for you or they aren't there, I think it devalues a lot within yourself. It's almost like you have to teach yourself to build your own confidence. You have to teach yourself to be there for yourself because the core people aren't there. They aren't showing up.

So it's like you have that. And then you get older and you start putting all the pieces together and you're like, well, fuck this. Like you didn't step up to the plate. You're a piece of crap. Stay away. Yes. But then I think deep down, you still have that.

little ache because the child you never healed from that and still just wants the best. Like the little version of you wants the best and wants to hope that maybe, just maybe, you know, like he'll be better this time or this, me having a child will save the relationship or mend it all. And I think it's, I honestly feel like it's a most more hurtful that you kind of, it's like a tease. You get a little bit and then it's gone again. And honestly, like from, And I could be totally wrong, but I think from the way that you explain it too is maybe in his mind there are points that he wants to be there and show up. And then he probably has a conflicting thing within himself of like, well, what's the point if I'm just going away anyway? Right.

Or maybe something where when he gets too close it makes him uncomfortable and his only option in his mind is to flee. Right. So it's like you never know, and that's not an excuse by any means, but it's just like humans are weird. They are. You know, like it's complex. It's weird. It is. It's hard because it's like, you know, like we were saying before we started filming,

which once again I know you'll get to, but even with like, you know, advocating for like, you know, children to be able to have a daddy daughter dances and things like that. It's difficult because, you know, as a big picture view of things, it's like not a good idea, this, that, and the others. There's so many reasons why it should be now. Absolutely. But then you don't think about the trauma it causes. to a child. And people don't realize those things stick with you. Anytime a parent that makes a

false promise, anytime a parent doesn't show up, it's like we could forget our whole childhood years of it. But those little key things, they stick with you. You remember them. And they do set the tone for how you are as a person, I think. And those little things can just help. It's more so for the child than for the parent. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. You know what I mean? It's just like, do it for the well-being and the future of that child. Do it so that child doesn't feel like an outcast. Like we don't need any more of that. We don't need a child to feel like they are different or they should be embarrassed or

like anything. Like I just feel like, this is the last time I'll say about it. But I just feel like there's not enough like knowledge and education on the not norm. If that makes sense. Like when kids have something go on, even if it's like they just like, lost their parent, you know, because that's another situation where that's so, it's so not an embarrassing thing. But as a child, if you have like a field trip and parents come and your parents are the only ones that aren't there because they're dead, it's like you feel uncomfortable,

you feel awkward, you feel embarrassed and whatever else. And it's like, I feel like there's not enough education or openness about topics like that, like within the school system where other children know or are taught to just like maybe provide more comfort or like something. I don't know. Right. I don't have the answers for it. But, you know, I just think that it's kind of just brushed under the rug. We're like, oh, that's their situation. Like, yeah, it's sad. It sucks.

But, like, we can't stop it for the 90% that have the norm. Exactly. But it's not fair. It's not fair. No, it's not at all. And you also, and what you said, it's not educated enough, like, to know, to just even to be able to ask somebody, say, hey, did you feel like this or does it still bother you today as an adult?

There's not that resource there, you know? there's there's just not and most importantly everything that you feel as a child it comes out to you in an adult way like it it still follows you it's still there and a lot of the times it sucks like when you can't get rid of that guilt filling or that oh shit feeling or the embarrassment feeling because it is still kind of just that you know what I mean it's still just that a little bit and I think that's what I mean you said it just right I want to It's so bad just a little bit of me like everything's going to be okay. It's all going to be okay. Yeah. And then it just never was. Then it just never was. So I'll go back into where I was with my dad.

We were, he went to prison. I went to go seeing him, see him one time. One time. So, and then this is the, this crazy part happens as well. Gosh. And then so we're going back and forth. But he, so, after I went to go see him, it was probably about a year or two. He was still locked up. And I don't know if maybe at this point my dad's mind just kind of went crazy from being incarcerated for 30 some odd years or heavy drug use. But he was calling us and just talking about some pretty off the wall shit. Like at this point he was like in his late about six probably about mid-60s at this point because my parents are just a little, they're older than me. But just off the wall shit, okay?

So he had called me and left me a voicemail. And it was going off and he had said, yeah, Kara, you can't play games your whole life. You can run, but you can't hide. You think you're going to keep my grandson away from me. It's almost like he called me that night because he sat there and thought about all of his fears within mine and like our relationship. Does that make sense? He was literally telling me, you can't keep my grandson from me. I'm going to take you to jail.

Well, first of all, no, you're not because you're locked up. Right. And I'm like, what is going on? Like something. And he had called me. He had called his brothers and sisters over. we're a four-willer and we're all calling each other and all trying to put our heads together around what the hell are you talking about what four-willer you talking about dad like what are

you in there actually doing yeah have you lost your have you lost it like come on so and we it was just some pretty crazy off the wall shit and then he said something to me that he said this and that's all he needed to say he told me that prison was the best thing that ever happened to him and that he didn't want to be anywhere but prison. Okay. You said that to me when I had just spent my whole life grieving you.

Okay, you just said that to me, hoping and wishing that it was up to you, like I said, to fix everything. And you said that to your kids. You said that shit. Don't talk to me anymore. That's when I was like, you're done. Because I no longer could allow that.

I could not allow our relationship to take over my life because it was. And at that point, I was done, done with them. So it was, you know, everything that kind of happened was, I'm going to say the second time he was in prison, kind of happened within like maybe two or three years. So everything was pretty still fresh, so to speak. It was still like, oh shit, you know, what's going on? It's a mess. So my brother, my oldest brother, had at this point, right?

My brothers were in contact with him. I was not. I had cut all contact off. They still talked to him. So my oldest brother, he hadn't heard from my dad in a couple of days. And he started to get worried. And he was like, you know, where's he out? Is he okay?

Like, I don't understand where he's at. nobody tells him anything. He tries to get in contact with the prison. Nobody tells him anything at all. Come to find out my dad had a stroke in prison in a cell and he was left there a little bit longer than he needed to be, which caused my dad to be. He was then paralyzed completely on his left-hand side. So this had happened over, it was over a weekend time that my brother, had found this out. And my brother finally gets told that he went up and had the stroke and he was in the hospital up there and that he was getting out of prison.

Because I'm assuming, I didn't really ask because at this point I wasn't in contact with them. But I'm assuming because he was more of a liability. Okay. I'm surprised they can just. Right. For such a long sentence too. And especially being a person, they call them.

PFOs, persistent felony offenders. Yeah. And so, and that's what he was just from like the drug bus and the charges and stuff before. So I don't really know why or how he got out. But I remember that there was like talks that my dad was going to go live with my oldest brother. Well, my niece, his youngest daughter was still living with him at the time and flipped out. I'm like, no, no, because I had to live through it and look at what. Look at the trauma it caused.

Look at everything. And you don't know who he's bringing into that house when he's not there? Exactly. I said, I completely flip. I was like, you cannot. It can't happen. Do not fuck her life up. Don't do it.

And my nephew's like, oh my gosh, it was so bad. So my brother respected me. He respected that for sure. And they were trying to find a nursing home for him, I guess. I'm not really sure what had happened, but he was probably out of prison maybe three years before he passed away. So he was still like in the nursing home. He was still, I guess, sheltered.

He was still in a confined living area. Did you ever visit him in that time? I did not. Okay. No. I did not visit him. No, because I pretty much had wrote him off at that point. point. He had, I did, I was around him once, maybe twice, and my son had met him those times,

but just for like an hour or so. I never let my son get too close to him. And I never talked about my dad a whole whole lot in front of my son, just so my son wouldn't ever be like me and ask questions and just be curious, you know, like I knew that my dad was never going to be able to hold up a relationship or be a grandpa. And so I wanted to just kind of bear that. You know, I kind of wanted to just, no, we're going to, I can handle it. Like, let me handle it. It's okay. Again, I just kind of followed my mom's advice. I did not tell Kate, or I told Casey the truth about everything and told him why I didn't want to talk to my dad. And so I told him everything so he could get an understanding. So I had gotten a phone.

call also during this time that my dad had a pretty pretty serious surgery i can't remember what it was maybe something on his liver something definitely internal and that they weren't sure he was going to make it and they were like care you need to come see him and i'm like okay so i remember like hanging up off the phone hanging the phone up and i was like i don't know about that because you know how many times I needed him to come and see me and he wasn't there. Now it's now, now he wants to see me. I need to do this. No, I'm done. Like, I'm done. Right. And because he's dying. Right. Right. I'm done. That's what it takes. Exactly. Well, I just really think, you know, and some of his family, well, I just really, really think that you would regret this. And I'm just

going to say this much. I don't want to say a whole lot just to keep, kind of keep the piece. His family never supported him. His family never had anything good to say about him. His family didn't really care how we were doing. They saw us on Christmas and Thanksgiving. That was it. And then when we got older, we told my mom, you don't have to keep taking us to these functions.

So his family, he never just really had a bunch of support from them. His family was saying, oh, yeah, I really think you need to. to make a men's meet with them. And I said, okay, I can do that, put them on the phone, like right then and there, like in the hospital. I did not care. And I told him everything that I felt. I told him exactly how I felt about everything my entire life.

I said, you know, Dad, I'm so sorry that we could not have a father-daughter relationship that we both wanted so very badly because we did. you could tell, despite everything that had happened, you could tell that my dad did want to be a good person, that he did want to do the right thing. He did want to try his hardest. And I said, it just never happened. You know, it's not your fault. It's not my fault. But it's just something that we need to let go. It's just something that we need to let go. I'm sorry, I said, but you, you know, you did more harm than you did good to me and me and the boy. my whole life. And I just wished him well. I just wished him well. I told him that I loved him.

And did I mean that at that moment? I don't think so. And I think that that's so fucked up for me to say, but it's just something that I don't know if I did. Yeah, that's okay. Do sometimes we say I love you out of habit? Habit. And I think that's, that's not okay. I don't think we need to just freely throw that around nonetheless, so to speak, I guess. It doesn't make any sense at all. So then, this is when I guess, I start getting introduced to the guilt. So my dad makes it out of the surgery, right? And I'm like, well, now what?

I don't cussed you out when you were dying on the table. I've already, you know, dismissed this whole relationship. What do I? I don't know. don't know what more I can do. So I had, he had tried to talk to me so much after he got out, after he made that surgery. He tried and he tried and he tried. He was getting everybody he knew that knew me to talk to me.

He was asking them, hey, if you can get her a chance to tell her to just talk to me, just to come see me, right? Would even tell there was somebody I had went to school with that I'm assuming was a nurse or something in the facility that he was in. And I didn't know it at the time, but said person was showing him, you know, pictures and stuff of me and of my son. And I had seen this person out one time. And he pulled me over to the side.

And he was like, hey, Kara. He was like, I know your dad told me. me what happened, right, with everything and your whole life growing up. He said, but I really think that you need to give him a chance. He said, because his whole entire face lights up when he talks about you, when he sees pictures of Kaysen. That's all he talks about is you. And I knew that was true because how much he tried to reach out to me. He would call. He would call. call me days in and days out. And I didn't answer. I was a bitch, a cold-hearted bitch. And even told that person who, you know, dealt with my dad a little bit. It was like, I don't

get my fuck about him. I don't care. You know, my life's better without him. And during this time, it's like he was almost too sick to be this badass anymore, you know? Um, Then my brother, I was at work one day. And my oldest brother called me. No, he messages me and he said, hey, call me. And I was like, okay. And he said, care, I know, you don't care. He said, but they're calling a hospice in on dad.

And I don't think he's going to make it. And I was like, frozen. I've never had this feeling of being frozen before. I didn't know what to do because I was... To be real, it was already too late, right? It was already too late. And I was like, I still don't think I'm over that. I still don't think that I know how to handle that.

I'm learning, but I do know. I didn't hesitate. He was probably about an hour away from us, and I didn't hesitate. I went right there. So I went right there. and my dad was just already sleep. You know how, like, when somebody passes, they're just in a very peaceful, like, resent or resting state.

And I just, I remember going there, and I didn't leave his side up until it was time to leave for the night. I just, okay, sorry, I'm jumping ahead. It kills me, but I remember going and just being by his side. And he wasn't awake, but they could, They told me he could still hear me. And so I told him that I forgave him and that I loved him and that I was sorry. Because more than anything, I am sorry for maybe being so cold-hearted, for being so maybe dismissive.

And I could have been a little bit more understanding, you know. So I told him, I wanted him to know that. And I just remember looking at this man and I felt so sorry for him, like, laying in that bed. And I'm like, here you are with nobody. You're dying with nobody except your children. You know, like, it's crazy. That's just what I remember thinking, just thinking, being just feeling so sorry for him. So I had went home that night.

And because I was with my sister-in-law and my niece and my brothers stayed with him. And they got through the night. And so the next morning I was on my way and I was driving up there. And this is also a town that I was not super, you know, familiar with. And I just remember my brother calling me and saying that, you know, he was gone. That he was gone. And I remember like getting cold. I remember literally getting cold and so numb and just like,

What, it was, it was fucked up. I remember I pulled over to the side at a gas station, went to the bathroom and I texted my friend. I was like, he's gone. And I'm like, he's, he's just like that, you know. So I go and see him before the funeral home picks him up. And what would, what, it's what you would expect. And I'll never forget. They had brought the funeral home came and they got his, his body out of his room. And during that time, we were packing his things up. It was just me and my brothers. I'll never forget this. Like even when you are so old and you are on, not in good circumstances, old habits die so hard. They, you can't let them go. So we're packing all this stuff up. and we my dad when he would talk to us like in prison and stuff would always tell us you know silly

little things like hey never never you always have a weapon on you always make sure you're protected this that and the other and my dad was just such a wild like person too like just I wish that I could paint the whole story you know or tell the whole story on how my vision of him was but he so we get to the last drawer and it's just I wish that I could paint the whole story and it's just It's a bunch of socks. So we get to the corner of the drawer, and there's a pair of socks with a mason jar in it. And we're like, me and my brothers are looking at each other and we're like, what the hell is this? It was his holy water that he got baptized with and it had the date on it.

And why it was in a pair of socks, we can only imagine it was used for, in the sake, of his mind, he felt safer because he had that. And it's just like, you were, you came in here after doing 30 years in the penitentiary, you know, collectively, you're dying, but you are still going to make sure you're protected. Like, we were so shocked by that. We were so shocked by that. So we get home, we go home and we wrap everything up. We get home. We get home. And they, my dad was not going to have a funeral. And that was not a decision that was made like prior by us. That was a decision made by his mom and dad, or I'm sorry, his family.

And we said, no, we want to have him a funeral. We want to show him. And he deserves, he deserves at least two hours. He deserves at least that much. So I'll never forget. Me and my brothers spent 12 hours by our self-planning this man's funeral. Okay? So that's 12 hours of coming up with somebody's whole life that you don't really know much about.

And I'll never forget. And I'm not saying this because I'm mad that like nobody helped us or, you know, everybody didn't drop what they were doing and catered to us that that's not what I mean by this. But, you know, me and my brothers had 12 hours to plan this funeral, and not one person other than my mom asked us if we needed anything, even a bottle of water. And the amount of pictures we had to go through, the amount of people we had to call just to get information on our dad. You know, like little thing. We had so much shit we had to do. And not one, not anybody, you know, when people tell you it's a cold world.

all you have is yourself, they're not lying. Because all you truly have is yourself as a person. And a good family, if you're blessed enough to have that. So because the alternative was he was just going to have like a showing with his yearn for 30 minutes. No. I just, to me, he needed more than that. And this is, I think, another really, another reason why I want to do Daddy's

daughter dances so bad. I want to get those into the state in Kentucky for the nonviolent offenders. Even though my dad would not have qualified for this, which is okay, we had to start somewhere. Because the funeral, the day my dad's funeral was the only time that my dad did not look like a criminal. That was the only time he was dressed up. It was the only time he looked normal. There was another time, one time before that, but he was so just fucked up that it didn't, it didn't matter. He wasn't truly there, but that was the only time. And I just remember looking that whole day at his funeral, just feeling so sorry for this man. So sorry for him. Because just like that. Like, it happened all just like that. Like how he, I mean, his life was just over and he never got a

fucking fair chance. He never got a fair chance. He never, he was just the odds were against him to the core. It seemed like every single time. And he just did not. And that bothers me. And I don't know why it even still bothers me to this day. But I'm like, he was still a person. He still deserved to be to dress like a decent person besides a khaki or a green or an orange suit. 24-7, you know? And I just, I'm just trying to get through that part still and we're coming up on the one year. And I truly think, let me back up. I did not make a men's meet with my dad. That's still something that I'm going through and something that's going to take a long time for me to go through, I think, because there's a lot of guilt I'm holding in and because I didn't

have to be a bitch to him. I don't think you were if you don't mind me saying. No, I don't. You don't think so? I could have. I think it's your dad. Mm-hmm. So that's, of course, it's why you feel that way. But I think that if I was sitting here telling you this story, you'd feel how I feel.

And I think sometimes we need to learn to separate that just because there are blood, just because, yeah, his sperm brought you into this world, he never showed up for you. Never. And he had chances. And I'm a very strong believer in the world can look every every situation is different But at the end of the day you make you make the choice and He had times where I'm sure he was completely sober You know and I think he still made the choice not to show up not to stay clean not to be there and I'm sorry

But there is something as it's too late in the sense of just because he's older now and he's not the badass he is or was and now he wants to come back and be a part of you like he lights up now but what about the little girl that needed him you don't need him now you needed him then so i don't think you should hold that guilt i don't think you need to you don't owe him anything he didn't give you anything that you need to owe him that's true so i think that you feel the way you do because you're a good person because we're taught to respect our parents no matter what and love our parents and our parents give us this, this and this, which like you said, if you're blessed with good ones, yeah, they do give you those things and they set up the

foundation. He didn't give you a foundation. You built that on your own with your mom, with your grandma, you know? Like, yeah, I think that you have to get through the guilt that you feel within yourself, but I don't think that's really a guilt that you have because of him. I think that's what you think, but I think it's more like a, I think maybe you wish that you act a difference or that you felt better about it, but you truly didn't owe him that. Does that make sense? Yes, it makes perfect sense, absolutely. And I guarantee you anybody else, like I get why you feel the way you do. I'm not saying, like, you're entitled to feel however you want, you know, and you're going to. Honestly, no one can control it. You know what I mean? We can't even control

we feel because anybody knows that, you know, when you're going through any type of sadness, even if, relatable example in another completely off topic in another way would be like when you're going through a breakup, you know, and it could be with the worst person in the world that abuse you, beat the shit out of you, right? And you can tell yourself one day like, fuck him, I own nothing. I should never be with him again. But then you still have this feeling in your heart of like, but I love him. And I think that's more what it is. I think it's that because that your dad, of course, like you love him. And that's okay to love somebody. Like deep down to care for them, to feel bad for them to want better for them, that's fine. But I don't think you should carry any

sort of guilt because you did show up time and time again. You tried time and time again. And he didn't want it. He wasn't ready. So then when he's ready, this is not his world that everyone's living in. This isn't anyone's world. Everybody's on their own path. And, you know, children need love. They need support. He didn't give you that. No. So, for you to feel, you know, I think it's definitely okay for us to reflect on our actions and be like, you know, I could have been nicer in that situation. I could have been more open. But the reality is in that moment, that's how you felt.

And while yes, maybe you could have been more nice to him and more open, that's not to say you'd actually like feel those ways. So why mask it? Why fake it? You could feel just as guilty for faking it. Do you know what I mean? Yes, no. It's not really like, if that's how you felt then, you can't regret it because that's

how you felt in that moment. It's not like you, I think you just were wearing your feelings on your sleeve. You were angry. You were bitter. You have the right to feel that way. Yes. I just think we're very hard on herself. Sometimes we can be our own worst enemy. But I don't think you, you don't deserve to hold any more guilt. I appreciate you saying that and I'm learning that. Yeah, and it takes time. Yeah. And it does. Everything does, in fact, take time. Right. And there's no buts to it. There's not. I guess what you said, you did, it's just... It's sad and it sucks.

And like I said, it's very unfortunate that his life went the path it did. Right, right. It sucks, but it, you're, everyone's actions, they have consequences. And I guess maybe that's also what caused the anger towards him so much too, what you said because it just, man, time and time again, there's so much effort. And it's really, I just wanted to look at it. them be like you were supposed to one that did this. You were supposed to one to show the effort and then you didn't. And it just, it sucks. It sucks. And it's too, like because like I said,

of course, you know, anyone that you care about, even if they're not a great person, you still want the best for them. I mean, unless you're just an evil human, you're not going to like wish bad upon anybody. So of course you can reflect on those things and say, you know, I wish he did this, and this, but, you know, we have no control over other people and we can hope and wish the best for them and they still continue to make the same choices. That his priorities were there. They were not with his family. And I mean, the most blunt way to put it is you see it how it is. That's how it was. That's how it is. And your actions, you got to a point where you're You were fed up, you were done, and that's why you acted the way you did.

And it's not, I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. And I think that now it's just one of those things that, you know, it's kind of this full circle moment where you can reflect on all the different things you felt as a child, as a teenager, as an adult. You're allowed to dissect those feelings. Even now you can have days where you might, you, I say this all the time to my guess. You might have a day where you feel like, oh, I'm fine. I'm not thinking about it. I don't care. The next day you might feel guilty again.

and miserable and hate yourself and whatever else it might be. You know, every day is going to be different. Yeah. But I think what you're doing by spreading awareness, speaking out about it. And beyond all of what you went through, you're saying, hey, let's try to get something together to help other little children. Yes. And I think that's where you're going to find the most healing and fulfillment in the situation. because I think sometimes you kind of have to remove yourself from it.

Like, acknowledge it, dissect it, understand it, let yourself feel what you need to feel. But then I think you kind of look at it from an outside perspective and you're like, I have one of two options. I either sit in it and keep feeling it and feeling it and there's nothing I can do about it now except keep dissecting it, which just drives yourself crazy on a loop. Or I can try to make a change. I can try to help others. I can try to speak out and share my story in hopes to help somebody else. Absolutely. And I want that.

That's all that I want. And you're exactly right. The only way I feel like I am going to find pieces getting my hands dirty with the situation, getting involved and just doing what I can. Because why does it, why does any relationship with anybody on the inside, why does it have to be so estranged? Why does it have to be so just distant, so cold? And it doesn't have to be like that. And, you know, I think, too, not only you speaking out, it doesn't only help children. It could help parents, too.

It could give them an inside look of how a child feels because of the results of possibly their actions or their lack of actions. Absolutely. Absolutely. And if I could sit here and go back or and tell any little girl that's going through this shit right now, if I could tell her anything, I would tell her be vigilant, stay vigilant in that kind of situation and to love yourself. Because what you said, you're not going to find love. Sometimes we don't find love from the people we need to the most. Yeah. And it sucks. You know, like it's we, like I said, we're meant to think and feel naturally like we want our

parents there. Yes. You know, and I think that a lot of times, especially when you are a loving, good person, you fight for that for a while. Then you get fed up of fighting for it for a while. And the thing is, too, is you got to a point in your life where you no longer were just a daughter. You became a mother.

So your priorities changed. Your things shifted. You had a different perspective on life and a different understanding of how you now needed to show up. And that could also could have caused some bitterness and how you reacted because you're like, you guys are two different people. Even though that's your dad, you're two different people. So it's like, in your mind, you're probably like, I can't imagine treating my child this way. No. So the fact that you could do that, it gives you an anger inside.

And it's okay to feel that too, you know. but I do think eventually you heal from that as well, even if it's, you know, after the person's already gone, you know, but that's something that I think it's all within yourself. I don't think, I don't believe that we can ever get healing from a person. I think we get healing from within ourselves. Yes, I could not agree, definitely could not agree anymore. And you said you were talking about angriness and bitterness and what that causes to a young woman, and I should have said earlier. I'm sorry.

No, you're okay. But daddy issues. Yeah. Look, daddy issues doesn't always look like jumping from man to man to man. Daddy issues is putting up with so much abuse, you know, so much abusive traits, tendencies, so much emotional abuse that even that's what that means. because even daddy issues literally mean, hey, I'm, you, okay, let me back up because I got lost. To me, what daddy issues is to me, it's allowing yourself to deal with something, even though

it's not necessarily just out here jumping. It's putting up with shit that you don't need to put up with, but you don't know that it's not right. Well, yeah, because he was your example of a man. Yeah. So your standards naturally aren't going to be that high when you're not shown a loving man. Ever. Yeah. Like who else is there to really teach you that if you think about it?

Exactly. Like the only other blueprint you really have is if you're watching love movies and even those can be toxic. So it's like, what do you really have? Right. You know, and it's, it's definitely, like you said, they can, daddy issues can look so different and it can show up in so many different ways. It could even be, it could even, I think, go beyond just men, but it could. lead to anxiety. It could lead to, you know, abandonment issues and everything in between. Whether it comes with, that could be in friendships. That could be in anything.

I agree. And constantly questioning your worth. Yeah. Right. Because you can sit here and have people tell you all these wonderful great things about you forever, for your whole life. But you still don't believe it. And you know what I'm saying? You still, there's still something off inside you where you're just like, yeah, but, and I truly think it's because I never had, I was missing a parent to remind me of those things. And that is 100% true. Yeah. But how sad is it that as human beings, we feel that we need another human being to validate

that? It's. Isn't it so sad? It's so sad. Because we don't, we should never give anyone that power. No. Not a mom, not a dad, not a sister, not our child. Nothing. No. You have that power within yourself. Yes. Because as easily and as amazing as it can feel for

somebody to give it, all it takes is for them to disappoint you one time. And it's just like, it's all gone. Yep. I agree. And it sucks. It does. You know, like as humans, we are meant to connect. We are meant to feel. We are meant to make each other happy and joyful. But we do have to remember, you set it in the most blunt way. Like, you really only have yourself. At the end of the day. The best thing you can do is work on that. Yes. No matter, even if you've had the most perfect life, you can never work on yourself too much. You can never love yourself too much.

You know, shower yourself with every positive thing you can. Yes. And I think, you know, that it just comes from what you said, like what we agreed on as a child. You learn and see all these things happen being so young. And it's hard to get out, like I said earlier, it's hard to get out of bad habits. just it's fucked for life. But I will say too, look where you are now. Like you could have also made a decision because of your environment growing up. Yeah. To go down a similar path as your dad, to go down a path that was just shit. Oh, absolutely. But here you are like, yeah, you might carry

this aftermath of pain and guilt and driving yourself nuts and loops in your head. And that sucks in its own way. Yeah. But look how much action you're taking. You're a strong, beautiful. woman. You're an amazing mother. Thank you. You know, and you're here to help others. You don't have to do that. So you need to give yourself some credit and realize like, damn, I did that. I went through that. I wasn't dealt necessarily the best cards in that sense. You know, but here I, and you could even be so, you could be as bitter as to not want to help anybody because you didn't have it like that. And there are some people that turn out that way where they're like, well, if I couldn't have it, I don't want anyone to have it. But there, you have, you still have this heart and this love in your heart that you're like, you know, even though mine isn't this

like kind of like perfect happy ending where we have this great relationship and whatever else, like let me try to prevent this or let me try to implement things that could help other people. Yes. And that is a beautiful thing that not everybody can do that. Thank you. I feel like in doing so, that's going to be not only closure, bringing yourself so much peace and so much more happiness too. Like, I feel like that's all that I need.

Like, I don't know. Sorry, I'm just. You're okay. It's been an emotional day, so we're good. Yeah, you're doing great. Yeah. I just, I don't know what you said. I like what you said.

You said that I don't have to feel guilty. So now I'm just like kind of stuck on that. I'm like, she's right. She's right. But I just want to know that, actually, I don't want to know anything. I don't know what I was going to say. You're okay. I got you all confused now. No, you did not throw me off. You're good. You did not throw me off. It was there? I wanted to make sure, too. I know that you wanted to talk about the daddy daughter dances, which you did. Was there anything else that was on your mind that you wanted to, like, bring awareness to or talk about? Like, as far as I wasn't sure if there was more of that kind of stuff.

No, no. Just. That was like your main thought of that. Just kind of, yeah, wanting to do or trying to get that involved. in it and if I can because I'm you know a lot of the times you have to be careful because when you do try to help with like families and situations like this it does in fact require a degree yeah like you'll get stopped so far and that's what I have against me I don't have a degree in the social work field wanted to but just could never you know I was handed having a mom all this shit was going on something I had to give I just want more than anything and I don't even know how to go about it. I don't even know where I would start.

Right. But all the questions and the confusions I had as a little girl that maybe my mom couldn't answer, my family couldn't answer. I just want to be able to be there for those children to be like, well, you know, this is what could happen. This what could not happen. I want to be there for that. So they do have somebody to talk to. So they do have somebody to talk to. So they do have somebody to. understand like where it is and not feel embarrassed, not make up a fake name of your parent. Yeah. When you're talking to your friends or other people, I want them to just 100% have like an outlet. Right.

I want to have an outlet. I think it is so, so important. I know that Sanquan or Sequana, I don't know if I'm necessarily pronouncing that prison the right way or not. They recently actually did Daddy Daughter Dances. And this was even after our call and I was like, oh my God, I cannot believe this. Like, that's amazing. And it's important to me and that's where my heart is is because I think one, even if it's not the idea setting,

but to see your dad or any parent for once look put together. Put together, it means so much more than what anybody could think because don't save it for their funeral. Yeah. Don't save it until it's the last until it's too late. Don't save it for that. And, you know, a lot of people might say, well, that's what they get, that's what they get, that's what they deserve.

They did something to be there. They, or they did something to put themselves in there, you know. But the children, we didn't do anything wrong. We did not put them in there. We had no control over it. So why are we getting robbed of something so small that meant something so big? You know, when children shouldn't be punished when it's not their fault. Absolutely.

I agree with that. It just shouldn't. And I know, you know, there are amazing, amazing support systems out there for anybody who, for any child that's gone through this, your uncles, your, your, your, your, your. your aunts or uncles, your grandparents, anything. But at the end of the day, you just, it's just not your dad. You know, it's, you still have to, it never replaces that. It never replaces it.

Maybe there's something you could get involved in where you don't need, it's like not super high up where it's like you don't need like a full degree, but it's like, I don't know if that would be like a nonprofit or like something where it's like you could help and you could be a resource and literally just be there. Yeah. To support and talk to some, like to children. like to children, but not, and I'm sure it requires other things, like background check, whatever else. Yeah. Like not a, like not where you had to go to school, but just to be there

because I don't think you need to go to school. It's not like you're trying to like dissect their brains. Yeah, no. You want them to know that someone gets it. And honestly, that's more than education can give. Right. Experience, you know. And I want to share exactly how it is. Like, hey, you're or maybe even if like, hey, you're getting ready to go in here. Yeah. It's going to, you're going to expect all these things, but you have to remember. X, Y, Z. And even if you're comfortable with it, whether it's like your email or something, we could, I'm happy to link that in the description.

So if anybody is listening that wants to reach out to you and try to start something, whatever it could be. Absolutely. Because these things take, it takes a village. As we say, yep, takes an army. It takes a village and the daddy daughter dances. Even with you, I'm like, well, I don't, do I really need school to get in here? No, would I need to pass a background check?

Sure, yes. But I could even get or try and in hopes to get people to like tucks places, you know, can we just get like 10 people out of time to rent it out? Because and let them have that moment. Right. Just let them have to me because I just, I think it's so much more important. I agree. I think it's and that's truly, truly what I want to do so bad. I want to, I don't know what the.

system has to do. Yeah, to like get it to work. To make transition to to to make the relationship with any parent that's inside with their child. I don't, I know I'm sure there's parenting programs and things like that. But I think that you have to, what you said, you have to go beyond textbooks. You have to kind of let's get real. Let's go straight to the point with it. I think you have to kind of get real. It's intricate. You have to like there's a lot of, I feel like, a little moving pieces to it, but you can figure it out. There's something, I just think it takes, you know, the right people, the right conversations and having people that can relate and really believe in it.

Yes, absolutely. You know? You did amazing. Thank you.