We're All Insane - Escaping Narcissistic Father

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

Ellie shares her experiences growing up with an abusive and narcissistic father. She details his leadership role in church and how he moved her family to Peru for a mission and subsequently got kicked out for poor behavior towards his cohort. Ellie discusses how his mental and emotional abuse took a toll on her mother and siblings. She speaks about how church elders had knowledge of her father’s abuse but continually excused his behavior until one day her mother decided to leave. After they left, Ellie’s father essentially kidnapped her and her siblings. Today, Ellie remains estranged from her father but her siblings have begun to repair their relationships with him.  Ellie: https://instagram.com/elliedav_? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me Devorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. Hi, my name is Ellie and I'm going to be talking about living in Peru, South America, which is a developing country. along with an abusive father. I'm just going to start with my childhood because that's where everything started, obviously.

So I grew up in North Carolina, and my family was very religious. So we were conservative Christian. And so I have five siblings, so there were six of us, and my dad was a pastor, or he was in school to be a pastor, so seminary. And yeah, so we were living there for a while and until I was about seven years old. And I mean, growing up, I felt like I had a normal childhood, I think because I was just surrounded

by the same kind of people as me. So I was homeschooled and really my only community, I guess, was church. So I guess everything felt pretty normal as a kid. I do remember there were definitely a few warning signs, I think, when I was little about my dad. I remember pretty vividly when I was like six years old, I had a nightmare and it was like a really bad nightmare and my dad was the bad guy in the dream. And I remember waking up and I was like, that's weird. Like I don't feel like my dad should be considered a bad person in my head.

And but I don't know. I was like five or six. So I was too young to like really be able to grasp that. And I woke up in the morning and I told my mom and she was, I mean, she seemed concerned, but she was kind of like, okay, like, it's fine. It's just a dream, you know, whatever. And I do remember a lot of times my parents would get in arguments, I guess, except it was always my dad talking. My mom was never talking. It was always my dad. He wasn't a screamer. Like he wasn't really that kind of abusive, I guess. It was more like emotional.

mental stuff. And so he's not a diagnosed narcissist, but he fits all the descriptions of one. And if you know anything about being a narcissist, they're very, like, calm. When they argue or when they're angry, there's a lot of, like, they're very calm because it's all about their words. It's not really like there are, you know, angry actions or tone of voice. It's a very like mental, verbal game kind of. So I remember they would get in these like arguments, I guess. And they would always kick us out of the house. They'd be like, go play outside. And they'd be like, and my dad would be like, and you're not allowed in until I tell you

can come inside. And, you know, as kids, we were like, oh, this is annoying. This sucks. Whatever. We'd complain about it. But we didn't, again, didn't think too much of it because it was just the way it had always been, I guess. And, you know, we would come inside.

And I could always tell my mom had been crying. Like her eyes. would be all red and whatever. And my dad was always very cool and calm and like, no, everything's fine. Like, whatever. And I remember asking some of my friends at church. We went to church on Sunday. And I was like, does your dad ever make your mom cry?

And they were like, no, what are you talking about? Like, why would my dad make my mom cry? And I was like, oh, shit, okay. Can I cuss on here? Yes, of course. Cuss all you want. So, you know, there were like little things like that that. that I guess were kind of red flags.

But again, as a kid, you don't think too much of it. It's like hard to pick up one. Exactly. Yeah. And even if you do, you're like, well, every family is different. Growing up in a conservative church, there was a lot of judgment, obviously, on a lot of things. And I remember there were families that they would let their daughters wear bikinis to the beach. And my family was very against that.

And so, you know, I looked at things like that. And I was like, well, you know, every family's different. Like my dad makes my mom cry. Yours doesn't, but you wear bikinis and I don't. Right. And in that like culture, I guess, with judgment, I think there came a lot of like pride too. And I think that was taught by parents. So I feel like I had a lot of like pride in like, oh, my family's more Christian than yours

because we don't do these things. We don't go to public school. We homeschool and we have Bible classes at school. know, whatever. And so I think there was a lot of like pride in that. And so I think despite the things that went on at home, I was like, well, but I know that we're like a better Christian family than these people because we don't do these things. Because I think I'd just been taught so much that those things were bad that my dad wouldn't do anything bad, if that makes sense. So that was kind of my childhood. I was very sheltered. I didn't get out much. I didn't do much. I really just

hung out with my siblings and maybe like my best friend from church. And that was about it. And then when I was seven years old, so this was probably 2009, I think 2009. My dad called the whole family into the family room and he was like, you know, I have somebody to tell you guys. And, we were like, okay, and he was like, we're going to be moving to Peru. And none of us knew where Peru was. And so he pulled up a map and he showed it to us. He was like, it's in South America. And we're going to be moving there in about a year.

At this point, my dad had graduated from seminary and he was a pastor. So our church had approved him going to Peru as a missionary. And so for the next year, we traveled around the country, mostly the East Coast. We never went too far. And we had to raise money to go abroad. So that was when my life first really, like, changed a lot. Like that, it was hard. I mean, were you guys excited to go?

Or were you kind of like? Um, I don't know. I, part of me wants to say yes. Like, it was an adventure. It was exciting. But I think what came in the following year right after he told us made it a lot. harder because I think we didn't realize how much we were just going to be gone. Like from then on out, things changed. And I think that was hard because the way he presented it was we're moving in a

year. But it ended up feeling like we moved then because we were gone like Thursday through Sunday of every single week at a different church every weekend. And we had to go up in front of the entire church and give a whole presentation about what we were going to be doing in Peru and why we needed their money. And so we were staying in strangers' houses all weekend every weekend. So usually it was like the pastor of the church we were visiting or an elder, if you know that is like a leader in the church. Yeah. And they would open their home to us and feed us and let us stay there. Which was very gracious of them. But it was hard, you know, being that. And there's just so many of us like crammed into a minivan for, you know, hours on end just to get to a stranger's house.

late at night and then do it all over again. It felt kind of like what I imagined to be like touring, like as a musician or something. Like that's what it felt like. So I think it made our family very close, at least like me and my siblings, like going through that together and experiencing that together. Like that year we really were just alone, the, you know, six of us all the time. Yeah, because you just had each other basically. Exactly.

Yeah. Like I feel like I barely saw my friends that year. So that was when everything. really changed, you know? And so that was hard. But I think that going through that year made us almost like ready for Peru even more. Because it's like, okay, finally we're going to be done with doing this all the time. And we'll like get to where we're going, see what we've been like working hard to get like achieved, I guess. I feel like even as a little kid, I had like a sense of that. Like we're putting in all this time to get this money to go here. So it'll be good to finally be

there and like have it happen. So quick question. Growing up, like I know you had said that you, you would notice like your dad would make your mom cry. Did he, like how was he towards all of you guys, like you and all your siblings? Yeah. It depended on the sibling. Okay. So another thing with narcissist is they pick out who they're kind of threatened by, I would say, like their power or their authority. So my oldest brother at the time was definitely the most picked on. He is very independent and opinionated. Like his personality is just very, he comes off very strong. He's kind of a polarizing person, I guess. And so I think my dad viewed that as a threat to everything he kind of like indoctrinated us on. So my oldest brother definitely got the brunt end, I guess, of the emotional

and verbal abuse and stuff. So they definitely did knock it along well. But I mean, it was kind of the same with us kids as with our mom. Like there was never really physical abuse until later. Growing up, it was always just like emotional kind of mental abuse. Okay. And there was some of that with me as well. I mean, my dad used to say to me, like, if you rebel against me or if you don't listen to me or whatever, you are going to go nowhere in life. No man is going to ever want you. Basically, he had a very, like, strong idea that women need a dad until you get married off. And otherwise, you're just going to be, I don't know, lost. And, like, I feel like, So it sounds like that was his way of like controlling.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because the older I got, I started giving a lot more backlash to my dad as well. And so I think he saw that. And that's when it got worse for me. I guess the abuse got worse for me. Right.

So, but I mean, he was saying those things to me since I was like a little girl. And like nine, 10 years old. Like he would tell me like, you know, you're attractive, but that doesn't matter. like without your, without me leading you as your father, like you're just going to get used and taken advantage of. And I think even as a kid, as much as that was, you know, hurtful and damaging, I feel like I always had a sense that it, like, wasn't true. Like, I always remember thinking, like, I don't really buy that.

Right. Did he have a family outside of you guys? Like, was he close with his side of the family? Um, so his family was also very kind of messed up. Okay. Um, he, both of his parents. So he got it on issues. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like his mom was the same way, kind of like emotionally, mentally abusive to her children. Right. Um, he, his brother was kind of off the rails, like drugs in and out of houses and, and, um, so he didn't come from really like a stable. No. Well, but again, they were also conservative Christian. And his father was a pastor. So it was kind of the like veil of like, oh no, we're a good family. Everything's fine. And then it's kind of interesting to think about like his dad ended up getting kicked out of his pastoral job. And that's what ended up happening to my dad. Wow. So his younger brother, I would say, is the only one who got out and got a good education, has a great wife.

kids and is stable. Okay. But I almost wonder if that's because he is the youngest. Like he was able to see everything like in his family unfold and realize like that's not what I want for myself. Yeah. I guess. Yeah.

Right. So I don't know. Yeah. And it's interesting. Like I've talked to my mom since then like getting older and especially after everything has happened with my dad. And I've asked her, like, did you have a say in going to Peru at all? Like, when he came to you with this idea, like, was it a mutual agreement to do this?

Or was he just like, all right, we're packing our, you know, six kids up and moving to a different country? And I don't think she had much of a say in it. And she didn't in most things. I mean, she always tells me, like, I'm glad we win. I don't regret it. And I think he kind of talked her into it. Right. And she loves helping people and she loves ministry and stuff.

So I think she was excited for that aspect of it. But she had just given birth to my youngest brother like nine months before, maybe a year before. So he was only, he was a baby like one or two years old at the time. So I think it was a lot for her. I mean, it was all kids under 12. So it's just interesting. Like none of us really had an opinion or a choice.

It was like he was leading you all. Yeah, definitely. Okay, so you guys got to Peru. Mm-hmm. And how was that? Yeah. So we went to one city first to just learn English. So there was an English school there specifically for missionaries that they would put

missionaries through to then go onto the field and be able to like communicate with the Peruvians in their own language, which was Spanish. So my parents were in that, but it was only for adults. And so what they did for us kids was they just put us into school. So we just sat in a classroom all day, in all Spanish, all Peruvian kids, and we were just supposed to sit and kind of listen. They didn't grade any homework. We didn't take any tests. And so that was definitely like a blessing and a curse.

I mean, we learned Spanish very quickly when you're like completely surrounded by it. You kind of have no choice. It's like survival. instincts kind of like if you want to talk to anyone you have to learn what they're saying right but it was hard because i mean first of all we missed a whole year of education so we all ended up having to go back a year in school and second of all it just was very um i don't know what the word for this is like it really just separated us from all of the people around us like isolation yeah definitely it was very isolating, which was hard. I mean, I remember a lot of the kids would like make fun of us for

not understanding them. Like they would, I remember one girl told me to tell another girl a phrase. Like she just said a phrase to me in Spanish and was like, go say that to this girl. And I was kind of like, okay, like whatever. I was trying to make friends, trying to make people happy. And I ended up saying something like very offensive to the girl because I didn't know what I was saying. And so I had to, you know, go to the principal's office and it was a whole thing. Yeah. And I just remember that being very frustrating. Just kind of like,

Hey, I'm Jeremy Schwartz from American Criminal. On this season, robbery gone wrong or cold-blooded murder. Either way, Boston will never be the same. Listen to American Criminal, the murder of Carol Stewart, wherever you get your podcasts. Or to get early ad free access, subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at American Criminal. And that's traumatizing to a kid too.

Yeah. And that's bullying. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And just feeling like I, I don't know. It felt like they didn't want me to be there. And at that point, there was a part of me that was like, I don't want to be here either. Right.

Like, I don't have a choice. My parents were doing this. I have no other option. So that was hard. And we were in that city for, I want to say, eight months. Okay. So that was a long eight months. We were there from May to like January.

And at this time, how often were you guys going to church? Like you were going there? Every Sunday. Okay. Yeah. Did you have to do anything like during the week as well or it was just on Sundays usually? Yeah, it was just on Sundays because at that point, the main focus was learning the language. Okay.

So they were pretty like intent on getting every missionary like somewhat fluent in Spanish before they went on to the field, which is good. Like that's, you know, smart. But so no, at that point we weren't really doing any like missionary work per se. Yeah. So we moved from there and our team, so the mission team, was in a different city. It's called Trujillo. So that's a coastal city. So we moved there and we were about like 15 minutes from the beach. So it was beautiful. I liked that city a lot more than where we were at first. And that was when we met everyone that we were going to be like working and living with for the next like three years. So these were all American families that were missionaries like us. And everyone lived in the same neighborhood. It was like a private neighborhood. And so we moved in there and that's when we kind of met everyone, which was just another like culture shock or just another wave of like new things and faces and location and

everything. But it was, I do remember as a kid feeling like relief getting there. Like we finally made it to where we've been trying to get to. And at that point, I was pretty fluent in Spanish. Like, I was conversational. And so were my parents. So it was good to finally get there. But I think pretty much as soon as we started there was when the issues with my dad started.

So again, he has to be right. He wants to be in control. And he butt heads with a lot of the people there. And looking back, it's pretty. sad because these were people that had been there for like 10 years. Right. So a lot of these families, their kids had Peruvian citizenship because they had been born in Peru. That's how long their parents had been living in Peru.

So they had like built this team from the ground up. They had done all the financial stuff. They built all these churches, schools, everything. And my dad kind of came in and just caused a lot of issues. Yeah. which ended up falling back on all of us because he had a lot of very like personal fights and confrontations with the parents of these kids I was friends with on the mission team. I remember there was one time my friend had a birthday party and all the girls on the mission team got invited except for my sister and I. and they lived right around the corner from us.

So, of course, we heard about it. We knew about it. And I went to my mom. And I was like, you know, so-and-so is having a birthday party and Bonnie and I aren't invited. And I just remember my mom being, and it makes me so sad to think back on this. Like, I just remember her being very, like, looking kind of like helpless. Yeah. Like, because I think she, like, looking back, I didn't know.

But I think she knew these issues. that my dad was putting people through on the mission team. Right, because it was affecting the kids now, which isn't fair. Right. So I think that was very hurtful to her. And it affected a lot of her relationships with the wives on the mission team. I remember they would go on a trip every year, like a girl's trip, to kind of like a resort-ish, like beach place nearby.

And my mom was never invited. And I just remember that being really hard. because all the husbands would stay home and take care of the kids and they would have like game nights with like the dads and the kids and then my mom was just there and all the other wives had gone. So I do remember things like that sticking out to me as a kid in Peru and just thinking like, what's going on here? Something's not right. Yeah.

Yeah. Other than that, things in Peru, it's interesting. Like looking back, I think he, because he, because he, he had these people on the mission team that he was focusing this like confrontation and anger at, my mom and us kids started getting treated a little better. Like the, I would say the abuse was minimal when we were in Peru because he had all these issues. Yeah, his focus was elsewhere.

Right. Exactly. Like he had like bigger fish to fry per se. So in that sense, Peru was a great time for me. Like I loved it there and it really was my childhood. And I feel like I don't like talk about that very much now that I'm back here in America because I think a lot of people kind of don't like get it, I guess. Like I'll say that I lived abroad and they think like military and it's so different.

You know, military kids, they live on a camp with or you know like a base or whatever with all other American kids that speak English in a school specifically for military kids that speak English, like an American education. Like that's typically the like scene kind of. And it was so different being a missionary. I spoke fluent Spanish. We went out into the slums every weekend and we did like Bible studies with these kids. There were, I mean, I remember one time I was at church out in one of the, yeah, kind of like slum cities, I guess.

and there was a gang attack on the church while we were there. So we had to lock up and kind of hide away. And we ended up getting stuck there for several hours until like later into the night. And we had to have like connections with like specific taxi drivers to get us in and out of there because you don't want to take just any taxi that's going in and out of there. So things like that that I think people don't understand. Just a very different upbringing. Yeah.

about living in a world like that. And I think it's giving me like a perspective too that's very like unique. Absolutely. To other people. I think especially in relation to gang violence and just like gang activity in general, I think a lot of people in America have a very like kind of skewed like idea of what that looks like. And that all gangs are just bad and evil and hurtful. And I think a lot of people don't realize how much of it is family related.

Yeah. So, I mean, I remember we worked in the schools out there too. And I would have friends that were like 13, 14 years old. And I'd be really close with them. And I would play with them on the weekends and stuff. And then they would just disappear because they had been, you know, taken by their dad or their uncle to start in the gangs. So these kids got started really young. And, you know, when you're that young, you don't have a choice.

Right. You know, you can't look at your 30-year-old father who's a gang leader and say no. And some of them even died. I mean, I remember some of my friends passed away because of what happened out there. And so I think that's really hard to, like, deal with as well as a kid. Yeah. especially just because we were living in a very, like, safe and closed, the wealthiest community in the city and then driving out there and seeing that. It was kind of like a hard thing to, like, work through as a kid, like the privilege that I had being American and being wealthy and, you know, whatever, versus these kids that were kind of helpless, even to us.

Like, there was nothing that even we could really do for them. And I think that had a big effect on me as a kid. So there were definitely things about Peru that were difficult. But I look back on it as like my home. Like that was my childhood home. And I really loved it there so much. I started going to school there all in Spanish. So I was taking classes completely in Spanish, testing in Spanish, everything like that.

So at that point, I was like very fluent. People usually thought that my family was from like Spain because we were so fluent that they thought that we were Hispanic as well or European. So that was kind of my Peru experience. And then things started kind of going wrong, I guess, about the last year that we were there. So at this point, my dad was causing a lot of issues on the mission team. And I remember one of the leaders on the team. She was a woman. She had married a Peruvian.

She had been there. I want to say like 15 years. So a big portion of her adult life. I remember she very suddenly went back to the U.S. And she was like, I need a break. I have to go back to the United States and be with family and whatever. And it was all very kind of like hush, hush and weird because she was one of the main leaders on the team. And a lot of people really depended on her to keep things running, I think.

And I found out later that my dad had been, I guess, abusing her so much that she had to leave. And she was like, I can't take this anymore. Yeah. So that was really hard for me to find out because she. had always been so good to me and my siblings. I remember she would babysit us if my parents were out. My parents would drop us off at her apartment when we first moved to Peru. And she was always so welcoming and friendly. So I remember finding that out. Did your mom have a reaction to that? Yes. Yeah. So I found out from my mom. I was quite the eavesdropper as a kid. So I would like

listen to everything over here, every conversation phone call. And I remember over, I think, think it was a phone call that I overheard. And I don't remember who she was talking to, but I remember her just saying, like, things have gotten really bad here with Scott, my dad. And he has pushed this woman out. And then I remember hearing her saying that we were getting sent back to America in December. So they could actually, like, make the choice to send you back? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, because you can get kicked off the team. Got it. It's kind of the idea. Yeah. So he. He, caused enough trouble that we were sent back to America.

And that was really, really sad for me. Because how long were you there? Four years. Okay. So you built up like friendships and stuff. Yeah. And it was pretty like it was a pretty critical age too. It was like nine to two or eight to 12, I guess.

So those are like really developmental years, I think. Because you go from being like a little, little kid to being like a young, like almost a teenager. So your emotions are a little more mature and you're a little more like aware of your surroundings and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So I remember overhearing that phone call and I want to say September. And so I was the only kid that knew that we were moving back.

My parents didn't want to tell us yet. Yeah. So I remember that weighed on me a lot because I didn't like want to tell any of my siblings. And I knew. And I wanted to talk to my parents about it. But I think even at that age, I had a sense of like, if I say something to my mom and my dad finds out that I know, he's going to get mad at my mom and blame her for telling me or something like that. So I didn't say anything. So they didn't end up telling the rest of us or the rest of my siblings, I should say, until later.

And that was really heartbreaking, I think. when we moved to Peru, we were under the impression that we were going to live there forever, honestly. Like, my dad intended to die in Peru. Like, he wanted that to be his life mission, I guess, was living there. And we had all really grown very accustomed to life there and had a lot of really good friends and relationships there. I mean, my brother was, I would say, a freshman in high school at the time.

and he was looking into universities there. Like we all really had kind of accepted the fact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That we were going to be there forever. So that was a really, really hard thing for us. I think also knowing that it was my dad's fault.

Right. Caused a lot of bitterness for me and anger for me. Putting me and my siblings and my mom through that. And the other people on the middle. that I loved and cared about and who had been so good to me and my siblings and he was just treating them so badly. So when we moved back was when things got really difficult, I think, because I think my dad was really heartbroken and hurt.

And I mean, it was because of his own actions. Right, but he probably didn't expect that. No, no. And he was too proud, I think, to realize, like, this is my fault. Or at least to like accept responsibility. Yeah. Right. Right.

So we moved back to America. We moved back to my hometown that I had been living in. And I, yeah, that was when things got really, really difficult. We did not have really any money. My dad was now under kind of like. I don't know the word, almost like surveillance by the church. Because now he kind of had like a flag on him, right? Like, oh, he got kicked off a mission team.

Like what happened? What did he do to make that happen? So were you guys so, like were you guys welcoming your church at this point when you moved back? Yes. Okay. So you were still attending church. Yes.

Okay. Because they kept a lot of things very like hush, hush. People were like, oh, they just came back for, they call it furlough. Like a lot of missionaries do like four years on, one year off in America. So no one really knew why? No. Okay. No. But he didn't have a job at this point because he was being, okay.

No. So we came back and at that point, I'm going to be honest, I still don't even know how much the leaders of my church back in America knew. Okay. I don't even know if they knew that he got kicked off. Right. I know that some churches that we had visited did because I believe the other missionaries on the team reported back to them. Okay. And we're kind of like, this is what happened with Scott Davenport.

Now I, you know, so it's hard. Like looking back, I don't know how much people in my church community knew. But moving forward into that year, there was a lot of betrayal from that church and a lot of really bad treatment to my mom, specifically from that church. So I can't help but think that they probably knew things and didn't want to say anything about it. It's a very patriarchal community, and they don't want to say or do anything that will make a husband look bad. especially to his wife and his family. So we came back and people were very welcoming and, you know, people let us stay in their houses and, you know, give us money and stuff. So you guys didn't even have a house at this time?

No. Okay. No. I mean, in Peru, everything was so sudden. Like, it was very, like, get out. Like, we want you out now. So we didn't really have time to prepare anything back in the U.S. there ended up being a couple.

They were an older couple, so they like vacationed in Florida during the winters. So their house was completely open. They had a pretty large house. So they were like, you know, your family can use our house while we're in Florida. So we were there from like December to March, I want to say, of the year we moved back, 2015. No, 2013, maybe. Yeah.

And that was when things got really, really bad with my parents. I think the heartbreak of moving from Peru and the stress. And again, like I was saying earlier, like someone to focus on, someone to focus that anger on, I think, for my dad was like a big thing. And he was no longer in touch with these people from the mission team. So it all got redirected back on the family again. So he was abusive to my mom. and she eventually went to the pastor's wife of the church we were going to.

I remember one day they got, you know, he was yelling at her, angry at her, and she ran out of the house and went to the pastor's wife's house. And she told her everything that was happening. And our pastor didn't do anything about it. So he knew all along everything that was happening. everything that was happening in our house. And he never did anything. Wow.

Yeah. And I found out later that my mom's parents had actually gone to this pastor before we even went to Peru and before my dad was even a pastor and said, we don't think that you should make our son-in-law a pastor. He is not a good husband. He is not a good father. And they gave like written evidence of things that they had seen my dad do. and begged this church to not pass him, I guess, as a pastor.

And they dismissed them and didn't listen to my grandparents. And clearly he became a pastor and went on to move to Peru. So this was all things that I found out later about this church community, I guess. And so I think that was just another, I think, betrayal, like in my life and my family's life. because this church, this was in North Carolina, this church, I mean, I grew up there. Like I was, I think, one years old when we moved there. So these were all my childhood friends. These were the people that it baptized me, you know, all that kind of stuff, or at least

baptized my siblings. So I think knowing that they knew everything that was going on and just didn't do anything was really hard to watch. And hurtful too, I'm sure. Yeah. And it felt very two-faced because we were still going there to church every Sunday. And I remember there was one Sunday we were sitting in church. And my dad, this was the point where it was so bad. Like my dad was not giving my mom any breaks. It was just constant belittling. And it was all verbal. Yes. Okay. Well, mostly. Yes. And I remember we were sitting in church and it was my dad and

my mom and then me. I was sitting right beside my mom. And my dad was whispering to my mom, just abusive, hurtful, angry things in the middle of the church service. And I remember one of the elders, like church leaders noticed and came and sat behind my parents and he kind of leaned over into my dad's ear and was like, stop. Stop. Like we're in church. You need to stop doing this. Like, we can't have this happening. Was your mom emotional at this point? Or did she? Okay. Yes. Yes. Like I think she was, I think she was crying. Yeah. Yeah.

And I remember that being almost like embarrassing as a kid. Yeah. Like sitting there and my dad doing this in the middle of the church service and like in front of everyone. And then the fact that this man had to come up and say something to him, I was like, it was just very like, what is wrong with you? Like why can you not let this go for the 30 minute sermon that we're sitting in? But I think that's also when it clicked for me, like, so they know what's going on. Like, this church knows what's going on at home. Yeah, I'm surprised that they even allowed him to attend, honestly.

Right. It's like you see him doing this in your service where it's supposed to be like quiet and respectful. How much more do you think it's happening at home? So that was a big kind of like realization moment for me. I think where I was like, wow, something is really like fucked up here, honestly. So I remember one night my dad was angry at my mom. I mean, you know, he had all kinds of kind of like dumb rules as most like abusers do. Like I remember he would always say if the laundry isn't folded and if dinner isn't made by the time I get home, like there's going to be an issue and he was going to be mad.

So everything had to be perfect by the time he got home at, you know, 5 p.m. or whatever. And at this point, he had a job. I don't even remember what he was doing. But I think someone in the church had gotten him a job. So he was working at this point. We moved into our own home. And I remember one night he came home and I guess things weren't in the order that he wanted them to be in.

And he started getting mad at my mom. And at this point, I was fed up. I mean, I was almost 14 years old, so I was a little older. I was aware too. Right. Very aware of what was going on. Sorry, I want to step on that. You're okay.

And I remember I kind of stood up to him. I said something to him along the lines of like, leave mom alone. This is not big of a deal. Something like that. And in the moment, he dropped it. And I was like, oh, okay, like maybe he listened to me. Like maybe one of his kids saying something. Yeah, like maybe this one of his kids saying something.

Yeah. Like maybe this works. Right. Like maybe it like caught him off guard enough. Like, oh, wait, my kids are noticing this. Maybe I should chill out a little bit. Yeah. Because none of us had ever said anything before.

So I thought that everything was fine. And, you know, the evening went on, whatever. And we went to bed. And I remember I woke up at like three or four in the morning. And my dad, and this was, he was yelling at this point. And he was like screaming and pounding on. sorry, his bathroom door, so my parents' bathroom door in their bedroom. And I talked to my mom the next day because I heard some of the things my dad was saying.

And so he was saying something about something along the lines of, you are such a bad mother, you're such a failure as a mother, that you let your daughter talk to your husband that way. and I remember just feeling so guilty. I feel like I'm going to cry. I just felt like, sorry. You're okay. Like I was the reason that my mom had to go through that that night.

And that was really hard. As like a little kid, like thinking that I was like helping her and standing up for her. And then she was kept up all night. He locked her in the bathroom and he wouldn't let her out. And it seems like too that your mom probably got like the brunt of it all. And like that's kind of where he took his anger out. Yeah. So that I remember that was a very like pivotal night for me.

because I noticed, like, there's nothing I can do. Like, there's nothing I can do. There's nothing my siblings can do. And at this point, I knew that she was talking to people at our church, actual adults, and they weren't doing anything either. And so finally, I went to my mom and I just, like, begged her. I was like, we have to leave. Like, can we please leave?

And I was really the only kid who witnessed as much of my dad's abuse. my mom. I witnessed it more than my other siblings because it was always at night. He would usually keep her up all night, push her out of bed, lock her in the bathroom, just yelling at her. And he wouldn't let her sleep. And I'm a very light sleeper. And my bedroom was right across from my parents' room. So I really heard a lot of it. Yeah. My oldest brother, he, he, he, I think he got to the point where he was avoidant. He knew what was going on and he was like, fuck this. Like he would spend the night to friend's house almost every night.

He tried to be home as little as possible. Especially because my dad was the most abusive to him of all of the kids. I remember my dad would get angry at him and just like punch him. So toward your brother was like more physical? Yeah. Yeah. I think in my dad's mind, in like a twisted way.

He was like, oh, well, he's a boy. Right. So I can abuse him physically in a way that I'm not going to abuse a woman. Like he had this idea of like, oh, no, I would never like physically hurt a woman, even though he was emotionally and mentally abusive to women. So I really witnessed a lot of this stuff. And I think I would like keep myself all. awake at night a lot too because I always had this feeling like what if something actually bad

happens and I need to call the cops like frankly because I knew what was happening. So I think a lot of nights I would kind of like keep myself up purposefully because I think I almost felt like I was like looking out for my mom in a certain way just by being awake. So there was someone else in a different room who could access a phone without my dad knowing if I needed to. So this went on for, I mean really a full year. It was pretty much January to January. And finally, things had gotten so bad and I was begging my mom to leave and she was begging the church to let her leave because she at this point was still under a lot of kind of religious guilt, I would say. So she felt like she couldn't leave my dad unless she got approval from the church. So finally they were like, okay, this is what we'll do. You can take

the kids away for a long weekend. And we're going to have all these sessions with your husband about what he's doing wrong, what he needs to change, to be, you know, a godly father. And when we see that change in him, you guys can come back and try to start over again. And my mom was like, okay, that's better than nothing. So we went to stay with some friends who lived about two hours away. And my dad was just at the church all weekend, meeting with the pastors and the elders. Did they keep your mom updated, like, throughout? I don't know, actually. That's a good question. It's so interesting that it was like almost like the church kind of dictated. Everything. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Wow. That really is how it is in especially the conservative Christian church.

Right. Is they have a say in everything. I mean, they have an opinion on your kids' education. like your marriage, like really like everything. Like they had to have a say. I mean, there were even, so every elder, if I remember this correctly, every elder was appointed a certain amount of families in the church. And the elder had to go and visit every family once a month in their home. So they would like eat dinner with you, talk to each of the kids privately or not, talk to the parents and kind of like it was almost like a social worker.

Yeah, like get an idea of how the house. And I don't know who they reported back to. I don't know if it was the pastor. I don't know if it was each other. Like they would have meetings or something. And they would report back, I guess, if they saw any concerns. Yeah. I mean, it's sad.

Like there were a lot of times that they would think that they would see a concern with a kid in the family if they thought a kid was too rebellious. And, I mean, lots of teenagers got excommunicated. from the church, disowned by their families because of what the church said about their children. And was a church, if the church saw something, like some sort of behavior that they didn't approve of, would they even try to help? Or it was just like an immediate, like, you're out? Pretty much.

The only help they would give was maybe like religious help, I would say. Like, let's sit down and talk about what, you know, the Bible or God says you should be doing different. Like there was no sense of like, really like mental health. issues or like anything like that. Like therapy wasn't really a thing. It was like if you have mental health issues, talk to an elder about it. Like they didn't, yeah, like therapy, counseling, medication, all of that stuff was kind of taboo in that community.

So that like really showed in what happened with my mom. I mean, they, it was kind of like, oh, will, you know, you talk to us in the church, we'll talk to your husband in the church. We're not going to send you to family counseling. We're not going to send you to couples counseling. We're not going to send him to, you know, behavioral counseling or whatever. Like, we're all going to fix this here. Yeah.

And my mom was very sold on that at the time. I think she had some religious guilt. Her dad was a pastor. And her parents were, you know, pretty happily married, had been married for, you know, 30 years or whatever. So I think she had some, like, religious guilt, I guess. Yeah. So she was like, okay, like, I'm going to listen to the church. I'm going to follow what they tell me to do in this situation.

So we left for those four days. And they, I guess they did contact my mom at the end of the time. And they were like, okay, you know, we've been meeting with your husband. He says he's going to do better. Things are going to get better. You guys are good to come home. And we were kind of like, okay, great. we went home and I remember the first night back it was kind of like love bombing like he had like

bought us all this stuff and had like bought like this dinner and was like I'm so happy to have you back blah blah blah like I love you so much um all loving to us kids and my mom and I remember feeling very like hopeful um like I was like okay great like maybe things are going to get better now um And then in a matter of days, obviously, it all went back. Went back. Yeah. And so I remember that was just another. I remember that day and that feeling like very vividly as a kid, just like feeling

like shattered kind of. Like I had built up this hope. And it was like ripped away. Yeah. And I remember like laying on my mom's bed with her like crying and just being like, I mean, I remember saying to her, like, why were we so dumb to think that four days was going to make a difference? Like, why did we really think that that was going to work? And my mom and I were very close during all of this.

Like, she really talked to me a lot about a lot of this stuff. And I talked to her because I knew what was happening. And I think she knew that I knew what was happening. And so, yeah, I just told her. I was like, I don't know why we thought this was going to work. And I was like, mom, things are never going to change. This isn't going to get better. Like, we have to leave.

So all of this happened in, yeah, I think I said January. I'm pretty sure it was January. And I remember, so things were still bad for the next two months. And then in March, I remember one day my mom, I mean, she got up early. You know, she was a mom of a bunch of kids. At that point, she was used to getting up early. She would usually get up with my dad, I think, when he would go to work. And I remember I got.

up and I was like going about my day and it was like 12 in the afternoon and she still hadn't come out of her room and she'd been on the phone all morning and I was like something's going on like my mom is never like in her room this long she's usually out you know making us breakfast getting us started on schoolwork you know whatever it is um and yeah she was still in her room and I could hear that she had been on the phone for like hours and I remember thinking I was like I like there's something going on and I remember thinking I think we're leaving today I was like, I think we're going to leave my dad. And so she came out of the room and she called us all into the living room and she was like,

pack up whatever you think you need for the next like two weeks. And we're leaving. And I remember that was like the greatest day of my life. I just remember feeling so relieved and happy and really just like proud of my mom that we were finally. doing this because all along, you know, she had been listening to the church. And honestly, the whole time I had been like, who can't, like I was not really on that wave, I think. Even though I had been brought up so religiously, I think I had this sense of like, why are we listening to them? We need to just get out. We live in this home. We know what happens. They don't.

Like, we just need to go. And I remember just thinking, like, how long are we going to go on telling them these things that they already know and nothing's changing. They're clearly not doing anything. It's been a year we can't rely on them to fix this issue anymore. So I just remember being so relieved that we were leaving. And so in the matter of like an hour or two, we packed up the car, all the kids, except for my eldest brother. And we left. And I remember. I remember. as any like controlling person does, my dad would call my mom multiple times throughout the day. I think probably because he knew she was going to try to leave eventually. You know, I think he maybe knew.

Yeah. And so he would always call her like on his lunch break or whatever. So it got to be like two o'clock. We were on the road at this point and he's calling her and she's declining it and he's calling her and calling her and calling her. And I think that is when he like caught on that obviously something was going on. Yeah. So that was when we left my dad.

That was March of 2015. We left my dad. And we moved in with the people that we had been living with those four days initially when they had told us to leave him for a little while. So we went and stayed with them. And I mean, that was just the beginning of so many other difficult things. My oldest brother didn't want to leave. So he ended up living with my dad. That's surprising.

Like, do you know why? I, he had a life there more than we did. So we all went to this co-op. It was like a homeschooling co-op. So me and my younger siblings only went to school, I want to say it was once or twice a day. Whereas he was in a high school that was connected to the co-op, but it was every day.

It was more like a normal high school. and he was in, he was in like a theater group. So he had like friends. He had that kind of a girlfriend at the time who was living there, who he was really close with. We had known from before Peru. So I think as much as he disliked our dad as well, I think it was just he had a life there that he didn't want to leave.

And he didn't want the uncertain. of where we were going next. Yeah. So. Or even to start over again, probably. Right. Yeah. Because, I mean, he really got it the hardest of all of us just because of the age he was when all of these things happened.

We moved to Peru on his 13th birthday. Okay. So, I mean, you know, middle school, like everyone knows, like, that's the worst time. Like, you're trying to figure yourself out. You're trying to figure out what you want, who you are. Yeah. And that was, you know, right how old he was when we moved to a different country. And then when we left Peru, he was like halfway through high school, which is also, you know, kind of an awkward.

Right. Right. Like he really got the hardest part, I feel like, in all of this, honestly. So when we left my dad, he was, I think, a junior in high school. So like so close to being done and being out on his own anyways that I think he kind of, kind of just felt like I don't feel like restarting again just to restart out. Right. Just to restart again in college.

So it's just kind of, I think he was like, whatever, I'll put up with my dad because I have all these friends who I just end up spending most of my time with anyways. So it doesn't really make a difference to me. Yeah. So we didn't get anyone legal involved for a long time. I think my mom, from what I remember, I feel like she was kind of trying to work it out. without getting legal things involved. So we would go stay with my dad for like one day out of the week, I want to say.

Like we would like get dinner with him. So you still would see him during this time. You just weren't living with him. And how was he during like the dinners and stuff like that? It was usually just like lectures about what my mom was doing wrong. Oh, so your mom wasn't going to these dinners. No, no, no, no. kids, yeah, yeah.

Because I think she was trying to avoid like a legal battle and like a custody battle, I guess. Or even maybe getting like drawn back in or something. Yeah. Probably. Probably. Especially because he was still in the community that we had just left. So, but that obviously didn't end up working very well. I mean, because at first she was like, we're just separated.

Like she didn't want to say that she was necessarily getting a divorce yet. But finally, I think, you know, she realized, like, he's not changing. I'm not going back to that. The kids are doing so much better not being there. And so that was when she was like, okay, I need a lawyer and I need to get a divorce and like an official custody agreement with my husband. So that was when we moved here to Maryland because my mom's parents live here. And so they were like, you know, come live with us and we'll help you get through all of this.

And this was the next big hurdle. And this was really hard because I think as a kid, I didn't know anything about like family legal battles when it comes to like leaving someone, like leaving a spouse. And so I think in my mind when we laughed, I was like, oh, okay, I'm done with my dad. Like I'm good. We're starting over.

But no, that definitely was not the case. So the first summer when we moved back to Maryland, my mom and dad came up with an agreement that my dad was going to take us for like a long weekend. I want to say it was like Thursday to Tuesday or something like that in July. And he told my mom, yeah, you know, I'll bring them back on Tuesday. I have work. So I have to bring them back anyways. And my mom was like, great.

So she dropped us off with him. And we went to his parents' house in North Carolina. So we were, you know, eight, nine hours. from Maryland. And it turns out that he lied to my mom. He had gotten fired from his job and he had no intentions of taking us back to her. So he essentially kidnapped us. Right. So we're back in my grandparents' house and they live in the middle of nowhere. They're like in the mountains of North Carolina and they're super like old and unhealthy. My grandfather was honestly dying at the time. He had really bad cancer. And my grandmother, I mean, she had a lot of like mental issues too, a lot of like

delusion and stuff like that. So I just remember like the day came where we were supposed to go back to my mom. And I was like, you know, all right, dad, like I think we need to start packing up and getting going. And I just remember him saying, no, we're not leaving. And I was like, what are you talking about? And he was like, no, you're staying here with me. And of course, I freaked out. and all of my siblings freaked out. And he took all of our phones, so I couldn't contact my mom. Legally, did your mom have full custody of you guys? Or like they kind of were working out, like, I don't even remember where things were at that point.

Like maybe she was just trying to make it work. I think she was trying to just be accommodating. Right. Like I think she was trying to be nice. Yeah. I don't remember. I mean, it was such a long, messy situation. I don't even remember where we were in the custody battle at that point, honestly.

So I don't really remember. I think she did, though, because I'm pretty sure she had full custody the whole time. Okay. Because there was never a time where we had to, like, go back and live with my dad or even do half and half. Okay. So it was just kind of on her terms. Yes. Okay.

Yes. So I remember there was just one, like, landline phone in my grandparents' house. And I remember I called my mom and I noticed that someone was listening in on the other side. So he had another phone upstairs that connected. And he was listening. Overhearing my conversation. Yeah. And so I was basically like, well, shit, like I have to figure out a way to communicate to my mom what's going on down here because I have limited communication with her.

So I ended up, I found where he had hid my phone and I snuck it back. and I got in contact with my mom. And I was just like, it looks like dad has no intentions of bringing us back. So we need to figure something out. Right. So we ended up being there with him, I want to say for like a month. Like four days turned into a month. Yeah.

And what did your mom say during this? Like what did she say when you called her? So I ended up just talking to her on the landline every day because I got to the point where I was like, fuck it. Like you can listen in all my conversation. I don't care. Like, whatever. So was she flipping out at all, like that you guys, that he was, like, keeping you guys

longer than... Oh, yeah. I mean, she was definitely, like, freaking out. Okay. I think she was more scared than angry. My mom isn't really, like, an angry person. Honestly, like, she tends to just get, like, worried. Like, I think she was more just, like, worried and concerned.

Right. My grandparents were furious. I mean, they were furious. Right. Like, what is going on? Right. So finally, my lawyer... Honestly, I don't even know exactly how they worked everything out, but I think my mom's lawyer

contacted my dad and was basically like, give it up. Like, we're taking you to court. This is going to look horrible on you in court. Like if you want any custody of your kids in the future, cut this shit out or you're not going to get anything. Right. I think it's, I'm guessing is pretty much what happened. And so my uncle ended up driving down from Virginia and picking this all up and taking

us back to Maryland. Wow. And after that, because there was no legal agreement between my parents, we stopped seeing my dad. Okay. So she just completely didn't ever have you do any weekends or dinners or anything. Nope. Okay. Because there technically wasn't an agreement at that point.

And so she was like, hey, no one's telling them they have to see him. Right. If you guys don't want to see him, you don't have to see him. How was it when you, you said your uncle picked you guys up? How was it when you guys left your dad that time? Like, did you even say bye to him or it was just like, I just want to get out of here? I'm trying to remember. I do remember my uncle pulling in.

And I do remember some of us just like ran out to his car and was just like, bye. And I think my dad followed us out and was trying to be like, you know, bye, love you guys. Like see you soon. And we were just like, no, like we're out of here. Because it was late at night. From what I remember, he picked us up at like 8 p.m. And I think we drove home all like during the night that night. because I remember my uncle wanted to do it kind of sneakily.

Like I remember them being a little like, okay, like your uncle's going to be here around this time, like try to get out of the house. Okay. So I'm trying to remember, but I don't know if my dad even knew that he was coming to get us, to be honest. Because I think they didn't want to tell him. They were scared that if he knew he would pack us all up and take us somewhere else. So, you know, that was obviously really scary, kind of this like,

feeling of when am I going to get to go home and see my mom and go back to my life? I'm just trapped here in the mountains with my dad. So finally, that winter rolls around. So this was the summertime. And my mom was like, you know what? Let's try to figure out a legal agreement with him. Because ultimately, like, if she was going to get a divorce from him, they were going to have to go through custody things as well. Like you can't really do one without the other.

Right. So that was also a huge battle. So that was the first time that my dad tried to take us. Yeah. And then we were trying to make things work with him in the wintertime. We agreed to see him. I think it was like every other weekend. Okay. So we were doing that. trying to work things out. And I actually ended up having to go to court with my mom multiple times and testify. How was that? It was really hard. Yeah.

Yeah. I was only like 15, 16 years old. And I, you know, you go into the courtroom and you're standing there and my dad's in there as well. So he knows that I'm there testifying against him. Yeah. Which even though you knew he wasn't being the best father, it's still a challenging things at the end of the day. It's still your dad. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember feeling like, I mean, kind of like I was betraying him a little bit. Because it's hard having a parent like that. Absolutely. Because, again, like not so much of the abuse was focused toward me. Right. And a lot of times when it is mental and emotional abuse, you try to trick your mind to think that it's not that bad and that he's just trying to be a good dad. He's just trying to show me the right way. He's just trying to do what he thinks is best, you know, whatever. So sometimes, yeah, it's hard to not get like caught in your head. And like kind of second guess yourself. Yeah. But. I always just tried to remember like I'm doing this for my mom and for my siblings.

Because ultimately, I ended up testifying to a judge in his chamber. So it was private. It was just me and the judge, I guess it was. And after I went through everything with him, he was like, wow, okay, this is a lot worse than I thought. and he ended up giving my dad very, very minimal time with me and my siblings. So ultimately, I'm really glad I did it. And I'm glad I had like the strength and courage to do that because it ended up keeping my siblings away from my dad as much as I could do for them.

So I remember that being a really good feeling because I felt like I had been trying to like help and protect my mom and my siblings from him for a long time. And so being able to talk to the judge personally and you don't really tell him what was happening from, you know, the kid's perspective and then seeing it have an effect on his judgment, I think was really encouraging to me. For sure. Like you're finally able to help. Yeah, exactly. And to like be heard by someone who will actually do something about the situation. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So we only had to spend, it was like, we never had to spend any nights with him. I want to say it was only like, it was like Saturday and Sunday, just like afternoons with him. And we had to be in a public place. So we couldn't,

we couldn't go in his car with him. Wow. Okay. And we wouldn't go back to his house. So they designated a town center in the area as like the public place that he was allowed to take us. Yeah. Because, yeah, they wanted it to be public and limited. Hey. This is honey. She usually doesn't come down. It turns into a catery sometimes and that's just, hi, baby.

Come on. Why don't we just let this nice lady finish her story? Oh. Come on. You can continue. She's just going to. They're just going to be. Just going to hang out for a little bit.

Yes. Yes. I literally can't with these cats. Yeah. So we, yeah, we were having visitation with him. That's the word. I've been like trying to think of the word this all time. Yeah.

So we were in visitation with him. And as much as it was minimal, it was painful. I mean, it was no fun because it really was our whole weekend. I mean, we were with him all day, Saturday, all day, Sunday, every other weekend. How was he acting at this point? Was he still doing like these lectures? Yes. I mean, we like he would just talk and like.

lecture and argue for, I mean, he could argue for hours if you let him. I mean, it was unbelievable. So it wasn't even like good quality time together. No, not at all. No. And it was just all about everything we had done wrong since leaving him, everything our mom had done wrong. Yeah. Everything he wants us to do differently. You know, all of that kind of stuff. Right. So that was very difficult. And it got to the point. point, like, I think we... I don't know. I can't with these cats.

We, I think we finally got a lot of like, like bravery and... I'm like, I'm literally so sorry. She looks like a little, like, lorax or something. She's trying to, like, fit her head in a wire. I know. She's so bizarre. Oh, my God. Oh, so pretty. Thank you.

So fluffy. She's just... Um, we, I think finally got a lot of, like, confidence in ourselves. I think just from we, at this point, you know, we had not been living with him for like two or three years. And we had a lot of separation from him. So we had a lot more like clarity. And I think we had been able to kind of like look back and like see what he had done wrong.

And, you know, all of this stuff. And like talking through it with my mom and family and all of that. So I think we, and I think we felt a little like, untouchable at this point too because we were like, you know, if you like lay a finger on us, we call the cops on you. Right. Like I called the cops with my dad multiple times. Really?

Yeah. Because I got to a point where I was like, I don't give a fuck anymore. Yeah. Like you are a grown man putting your hands on a kid. Like, at what point did you start calling the cops on him? Was this during these visitation times or okay? Mm-hmm. Because I was still, you can stop going to visitation legally when you're 16.

Okay. So I was still 15. I legally still had to go to them. And I mean, at this point, I was really just, like, fed up with him more than anything. And so I remember one time he would make us sit in this town center, usually in the food court, which was always, like, empty. This wasn't a very, like, popular place. And so he would just sit us there for the full, you know, whatever it was, five, six hours that we were with him. And he wouldn't buy us food and he wouldn't let us go to bathroom.

and if we pulled out our phones at all, he would take them from us. So it really was just like sitting for hours on end. Yeah. Yeah. That's really what it felt like. Sitting for hours. So like if you had a pee, he wouldn't let you go pee. Nope.

Nope. So I remember one time my brother asked you out of the bathroom and my dad was like, no. And again, like at this point, we really were all fed up. Like my mom had a lawyer and she was really good about like she would call us a lot of times after we had been with him and be like, okay, did anything happen that you want to tell me about? Because she was trying to build a case against him. Right. Absolutely. So, and we would tell her if he had done anything that we thought was, you know, abusive or hurtful or, you know, whatever you want to call it.

And so my dad was like, no, you can't go to the bathroom. No, no. And finally my brother just stood up and went. Like he was like, don't care. I'm going to the bathroom. And my dad followed him into the bathroom and. and grabbed him by his shirt and was like holding him up against the wall, like choking him. And I could see him because, you know, public bathrooms, there's kind of like a hall and then you turn into where the stalls are.

So they were right there where I could see them. And, you know, I ran over and I was like yelling. I was like, let him go, like put him down. And he wouldn't listen to me. And so I dial 911. And I, yeah, I ran out of the food court. And I was like, you know, officer, like my dad. is, you know, essentially strangling my brother.

Like, I need you to come help us. So I think that was the first time I called the cops on him. And then he actually called the cops on me one time. I don't remember exactly what had even happened. But he, I wasn't doing something that he wanted me to do. and he claimed that it was illegal for a child to disobey a parent because I was under age or something. And so he called the cops and they showed up. And they didn't really end up doing anything.

I mean, I think they were kind of like, what the fuck? Right. Like you idiot. Like what do you think we're going to do here? He probably did it too to instill some sort of fear, like trying to hold on to like the last bit of the control. And there was probably a part of him that was like, oh, you're going to call the cops on. me, fine, I'll call them on you. Literally. And it was just kind of like, well, okay, jokes on you. You're hurting a minor and I'm the minor. So, you know, they're not going to, I mean, I think the

cop was like, you know, listen to your dad, like respect to your dad. But like he didn't like really do anything substantial. And at this point, like I was just arguing with my dad every time we were with him. Like I would talk back. I would disobey. I would. I mean, I would. I would. I would. I would get up and leave. Like if we were sitting in the food court and I was sick of it, I would get up and be like, okay, I'm going to go, like, walk around and go buy myself some food because you're not buying us food. And we've been here for six hours. And finally, he told me he was like, you know, if you're going to keep on acting like this when we're together, leave and don't come back. And that was the best day of my life. Say no more. I was like, hell yeah. Like, okay, I'm out of here. And because

he said it, I wasn't going to get in legal trouble. Right. For, you know, not attending or whatever. So that was really when I cut ties with my dad. I mean, after that day, I've seen him around, you know. So is he, he's living in Maryland now? Yes. Okay.

Yes. So he moved to Maryland when we moved there to be close to us. So is he doing anything with churches anymore or? No. So that, yeah, that's an interesting. He got his pastoral license revoked. So he is no longer a pastor. And he got in a lot of trouble with the church.

Okay. Because when we finally got the legal stuff worked out, we got in contact with. So there's like church government is what it's called. So churches in a certain like area of the country all meet at one. time or maybe it's two times in the year. It's like the fall and the spring, I think. And they go over issues in each church in the, they call, it's like a church district and like church government. And they kind of go over any issues that are going on in each church. And they go through like, like religious kind of like counseling and advising and whatever for each of the pastors. And he got

called into that because they were basically putting on almost like putting him on like a trial almost like a church trial to see if he was fit to be first of all a pastor second of all even like in the church okay um so he was on the line of getting excommunicated which i guess for anyone who doesn't know that's basically where you get kicked out of the church and you get labeled I guess like not a follower of God. Okay. So pretty much you're not considered really a Christian anymore when you're excommunicated. Okay.

So in the conservative Christian church, that's a big, like, disgrace. Like being excommunicated is a big deal. And they make it very public. They announce it to the whole church. It's a very like public kind of humiliation. Yeah. I would say. So he was.

he went into trial for that and they they punished him. They took away his ability to be a pastor and they took away his ability to have communion. So that's another thing that they do to punish in the church is he's not allowed to take communion, which is also a very like public punishment because in the Christian church, everyone takes communion at the same time. And so when you're not allowed to, it's a very like commonly known thing. So he was punished in those ways, but he is technically still a member of the conservative Christian church. Okay.

And he still claims to be a Christian. So you cut ties with him. When was this? Um, 2017 or 18. And have you guys, have you talked to him since? I have seen him around. Okay. But you don't like call him and try to see him.

Okay. No. And then same with your. mom, nothing? Nope. And then your other siblings? Um, my, so they all had to stay in, um, like the visitation schedule. Um, except he honestly, eventually ended up doing enough things to each of them as well that they were able to claim like I feel I'm unsafe going to that. Um, like my sister, she was in the bathroom and he was mad at her and he like broke into the bathroom on her. Um, And was like screaming at her.

And so my lawyer was like, no, you're out. Like, you don't have to go anymore. And then my other brother just quit. Honestly, he was like, look, if my dad wants to take this to court, he can. But I'm almost 16, so I'm leaving. So at this point, it's just my one youngest brother who still sees my dad. Okay. Yeah.

And that's to this day. Yep. Yeah. So he still sees him every other weekend. And it's still the same like set up with the visitation. Now, actually, he does spend the night. So my dad, I guess, was good enough for long enough that my brother does spend. So it's like one weekend in the month.

He is only, let me see if I get this right. I think it's only one night, one weekend. And then the other weekend, it's two nights. It's like Friday and Saturday night. Has your brother said how it is? Is it fine? Yeah. So he is the youngest.

he really remembers the least of everything that happens or happened. Yeah. So him and my dad are actually on decently good terms. Right. I mean, you would think your dad would be like, well, this is the only chance I have left to have any sort of kind of like normal relationship with any of my kids. So yeah.

Yeah. So my mom is remarried now happily remarried and has been for two years. Yeah. And so I have a stepdad and a step sister. I have a little sister. So she was four when they got, or no, six, I guess, when they got married. Yeah. So, and honestly, this is kind of a new development with my dad.

He has really been, like, reaching out a lot more. My oldest brother has tried to kind of repair his relationship with my dad. Yeah. Every time he's in town, they, like, will meet up and get lunch. or coffee and they'll hang out. My sister got dinner with him for her birthday. And they all went over to his house the other night and had a game night or something like that. So would you be interested at all in repairing your relationship? Yeah. So that's something I've been kind of, I guess like struggling with recently is they have all kind of been like trying to give him a second chance,

I think. So that is something that I've been like thinking about and kind of struggling with recently because I feel like all of my siblings are kind of trying to do that and trying to move toward that with him. And I just don't know if I'm like ready to do that yet. Yeah. Understandably. Again, I think I went through a lot of things with my dad.

that my siblings didn't. And you saw a lot of how he treated your mom. And I think that that holds in a different place too. Yeah. Because that's not only something that was done to you, but also someone else that you love so much and, you know, was a good parent to you. Yeah.

I, and I think there's still like almost a part of me that feels like it would be some sort of like betrayal to my mom to rekindle with my life. dad. Yeah, and you know too, I think if you were ever ready, that would be something you would know and really feel in your heart. But also, I mean, the relationship probably or maybe wouldn't never be the same. But maybe one day there would be a way to form some sort of relationship that worked for you that maybe put everything at peace kind of. But like that would be if he was in a good place, you know, because I don't think he deserves a relationship with any of you guys if he really

isn't doing better. I feel like he wouldn't be deserving of a relationship unless he was, you know, did a lot of self-work and was really in a place that he could become a better father and really be what he never was. But I think, too, it's like it's not like that much time is passed by. No. Right. So it's like within your own time, maybe and maybe not. If it doesn't, if it's not something that you ever come around to, that's fine too because at the end of the day, What's most important is how something's going to make you feel. And, you know, that's all that matters. Like you use your own discretion with that and decide.

Yeah. And I, like, frankly, I'm still just, like, healing, I think, from a lot of things. I went through with him. I have, you know, some trauma and I struggle with trust issues and I have a lot of anxiety. And so I think that I. I just try to be careful of things that I feel like could be like triggering for me. And I feel like because of the things I've been through, I just feel like he would probably be like the number one trigger to that.

Absolutely. So I just, I feel as I'm not really in the right place to do that yet. And that's totally understandable too. What does your mom say about it? Like with your other siblings kind of reforming a relationship. relationship with him. Like, is she, like, I don't want to say accepting. And that. Because your mom seems like she was pretty accepting of everything. But how does she feel about it? Is she kind of just like whatever works for them? Yeah. I mean, my mom is great. She is a wonderful person. She is not

bitter. She's not a bitter person at all. So yeah, she's been very supportive. Yes. And, you know, I think there's a part of her that hopes to see change in my dad. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, it's the father of her kids, you know. Right. Right. And, you know, people say, like, when someone treats people so badly, they are, you know, unhappy with themselves to some extent. Like, that, I think, stems from a lot of insecurity or possibly things he went through in his own childhood. And so, you know, I think she wants to see him somewhat healed. Yeah. Because it probably is a sign that he is doing better within himself. Yeah. And so I think being able to reach out to my siblings and actually hang out with them in like a normal, somewhat healthy way is probably a good sign of where he is in his own, you know, walk.

And so, yeah, she is definitely supportive of it. You know, she's always just been very like, look, if you think you're going to be okay. right after you see him then you are more than welcome to see him right because i think she does understand like he is our dad at the end of the day and you know that carries something um and you know some of the kids in my family feel that stronger than some of the others do but um yeah she is very I think good about that just not being like pressuring or judgmental either way right and and I think to like everything that you went through and even just standing up for your mom in those times. Like that shows how strong of a person you are.

And I think even now it can be challenging because he is your parent to even to this day stand strong and decide I'm not ready. Because I feel like there might be some people that just keep, they are so forgiving, which it's great to be forgiving. But I think that it shows how strong you are and really confident in your own, you know, like trusting your gut and your own decisions to really be like I'm not ready yet and just kind of wait to see how everything pans out because I feel like too if if something were to kind of go south with one of your siblings where he were to say something to hurt them again would be like

okay so he really hasn't changed then you don't have to put yourself back through hurt again you know what I mean because that every single thing that we go through like even the older we get and the more even if we've experienced it X amount of times it's still traumatic to us we still hold going to it in it and it causes hurt and pain. So I feel like the fact that you know you're not ready for that shows that you're really strong and like I said, confident in your own decisions and where you are right now in life, which I think is really something important and to be proud of within yourself. Thank you. Yeah. And I think there is a part of me that I think because growing up, as I said earlier, he had this idea that like without me, you're not going to be anything.

and he always had this point about like you're not going to no man is ever going to love you and no man is ever going to want you. And I think there's a part of me that kind of wants to prove him wrong. And so as long as I am disconnected from him and am able to, you know, thrive and do well, that I am, yeah, kind of like proving him wrong in some sort of way. Right, like I'm okay without you. Yeah, exactly. Like I am in a relationship with a guy and he is a great guy and he loves me and he takes care of me and I but also I take care of myself.

I mean, I have moved out and I work full time and I'm proud of where I am and who I am without him. And I think there is a part of me that feels like I have to continue to prove that somewhat. I think that's amazing. And I think that it's really interesting too because I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that can really relate to your story in the sense of having a parent that because I think too when we hear like abusive parent or something we might think like physically abusive. But mental and emotional abuse is huge and it's sometimes can be even worse in certain ways. Definitely. And it's damaging. You know, and I think I know that there's a lot of people out there that can relate to that. And that's why I think it's so amazing that you were able to come on here and share your story.

because I think that it's something that people, you know, one, they could feel like they're not alone, but two, like I said, your strength, I feel like in your story really shines through and hopefully would give people courage. Like, I don't have to keep putting up with this. And even like you said, the part of your story about holding guilt, I'm sure there's kids too and other people that that might feel ways like that. And I think it's really helpful to know that you shouldn't ever harbor the guilt of someone else's actions. And at the end of the day, even though you standing up for your mom, you know, didn't have the result that you expected. Like I said, I can't stress enough.

That takes a really strong person because it seems like your dad was scary. Like, you know, and it's definitely. So I think that says a lot. And I just think too, like I said, really that I think a lot of people, it could give them the courage to stand up and just really know that they don't have to keep putting themselves in that situation just because it's their parent. Yeah. You know. And yeah, I guess like one last thing.

I kind of along the same lines, like I want people to know that it's all, like, also don't give up on trying to push that person out of your life. Right. Like, again, in my story, there were people that knew what was happening. And there were people that were aware of what my dad was doing to my mom. And just because maybe the first line of defense doesn't work, that doesn't mean that it's not worth it. Yeah. Right.

To not, you know, keep. pushing for better and for yourself because, yeah, not everyone is always going to help you in life. Right. Even the people that sometimes you would think, you know, would help, they just sometimes don't. Right. So there's a lot of assholes out there. True. Yeah.

But no, your story was amazing. And thank you so much for coming on here. Thank you for having me. And sharing it. Of course. And it was great. So thank you again. Of course.