We're All Insane - Growing up with 45 Siblings | Raised to be Polygamist

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

#podcast #family #siblings #marriage https://jaspr.co CODE INSANE for $300 off Ashley grew up in a polygamous family—where one dad, six wives, and dozens of kids lived under one roof. She shares the surprising realities of her childhood, the family dynamics, the challenges, and the unexpected beauty of life in such a massive household. Ashley's Links: TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ashley_sandmire?_t=ZT-8yO1yxSs77F&_r=1 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ashley_sandmire?igsh=MTRob2w5cG52Z2xsbA%3D%3D&utm_source=qr YouTube: https://youtube.com/@ashley_sandmire?si=3vCqEi4q4n4Lg8NR Free mental health hotline is 988 00:02:51 What's it like being born into a family with many siblings? 00:04:12 Why do people have multiple wives in Utah? 00:08:34 How does polygamy relate to religion? 00:10:31 What are the differences between polygamist groups? 00:18:04 How is your relationship with your parents different in a polygamist family? 00:20:01 What is tithing? 00:28:19 How did other kids treat the kids from a polygamist family?00:32:20 What's it like learning your sibling has unlived themselves?00:38:10 Why do people laugh sometimes as a response to trauma?00:40:07 What's it like viewing the body of a family member at a funeral?00:43:03 What's it like when a sibling dies in a big polygamist family?00:48:25 What kind of thoughts do people have after someone they know unalives?00:51:39 How do people commiserate together after a loss?00:57:58 If you're raised polygamist do you grow up to also be polygamist?01:00:46 Do you see people in dreams after they have passed? 01:03:24 How does dating work in a polygamous marriage? 01:11:27 How many wives do polygamists have? 01:16:33 What's it like when your partner's family doesn't like you? 01:18:17 How do small communities gossip? 01:20:40 What does it mean to get "sealed" in the LDS tradition? 01:24:59 What does a hard pregnancy look like? 01:28:19 What's it like having your water break during pregnancy? 01:34:03 What's it like giving birth? 01:37:37 How does it feel to want to leave a polygamist lifestyle? 01:39:09 Why in some religions do they have multiple wives? 01:42:45 How do you leave a polygamist religion? 01:43:28 What is religious OCD? 01:48:51 How does postpartum depression feel? 01:54:42 What is the semicolon project? 02:03:50 What is a home birth? 02:14:16 What's it like learning your child's gender at birth? 02:24:13 How do families react when you leave their religion? 02:30:28 How does losing a close family member still impact you later in life? Topics: Polygamy, Big Family, Multiple Wives, Family Dynamics If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me Devorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. So my name is Ashley and I grew up in a polygamous family. So my dad had six wives. wives at one point. And I have 45 siblings. But that's like the number that we go with. Some of my siblings would probably be like, it's more or it's less. That's the number that I just, I just stick with that one. Could be more, could be a little less, but 45. I have so many questions already. Wait, six wives at once. Yeah. Some people would be like,

that is great. Like who, oh my God. Wait, so, all right, I'm going to let you go and then I'll ask my questions as you go, because I'm sure you're going to answer some of them. I'm sure you can ask whatever. So I'll need to get the rundown in the background, but. So six wives. All right, so how, I don't even know.

Hold on. I didn't think so. My questions are on like a freaking wheels. Yeah. Okay. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the household. Yeah. So did he have children with all six of these? Yes. And I'm assuming some of this was overlapping. Like some of them are pregnant at once and having kids. Yeah. So I have like siblings. Like I have a sister that's 10 months older than me from a different mom and a sister that's 10 months younger than me from another mom. And then I have like brothers that are like a year older than me. or around the same age. Was your mom one of the six wives? Yes.

Wow. My mom was number two out of the six wives. This is crazy. And my mom had 12 kids all by herself. And I was number six of the 12. Or number seven. She had a stillborn. So I think I was number seven with the stillborn.

Okay. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay, you really did start off with a punch. All right, I'm ready. Okay, so why don't, I guess you want to start like childhood and just growing up and whatever else you want to throw in there for me? Yeah.

I think I'll just start with my childhood and go from there. Yeah. Because I feel like in my whole life I've gone through so many different things. Right. And so, yeah, I just feel like I have, like, a lot to share. But, like, when we were younger and. And my mom had me. She had almost all of her kids at home, had a home birth. But I was one of the three that was at the hospital. One of those being her stillborn baby that she had. But I, and I don't know why.

I don't know why I was one of the random, like, a couple of kids that were born at the hospital. But we grew up in Nevada. But I was actually born in Utah because it was like right across, like the border. And so she had me in a hospital in Utah. But, for the first couple of years that I of my life, I grew up in Nevada and we lived in trailers. And there were trailers that had no heat, no AC in hot Nevada. I have no memories of that, though. Okay, so you don't remember. Do you, have you asked your parents, like how many of you at once it was in the trailers? I don't know how many of us at once, but it was almost all of us. Okay. Because when I was two, my family split up and the wives left, but my mom's

stayed with my dad. Okay. So my mom had some kids after me with him, but other than that, that was like all my siblings at that point, almost all of my siblings at that point, other than the few that my mom had after. And it's just so interesting, like how, so, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't know a bunch about it, but basically in Utah, and is it just Utah or is it other places that like this is common or more common for the men to have multiple wives. I think Utah is a pretty common state. Like there's maybe other states too, but Utah is like probably the most common. And I think it's because like so many people think that like the LDS church practices polygamy and lives polygamy, but they don't. They did back in like 1890s. I don't know.

Around that time, they stopped living that way and they had like this whole thing called the Mormon Manifesto. where their prophet Wilford Woodruff said, we're no longer practicing polygamy anymore, and we don't believe that we should be living this way anymore. But then when that happened, there were still people that believe that they should be living polygamy and they should live that way. So when that happened, there was tons of breakoffs of polygamy.

So when people hear polygamy, they always think that it's, like, they always think of FLDS, Warren Jeff's, with like the bonnets and the dresses and the poofy hair. But the polygmy that I grew up in was not FLBS. Okay.

And have you ever seen the show Sister Wives? No, but I watched a little bit of the documentary about, I think, the Warren guy, maybe? Oh, okay. Because there was a documentary on him, right? Yeah, so that was the documentary Keep Sweet, Pray, and Obey. Yes, I watched him about it. So that was Warren Jeff's. I didn't grow up in that.

Right. Okay. I didn't grow up with that. Um, but there's a show called Sister Wives on TLC and I grew up with them. Like, they're from the same polygamy as me. Um, the Browns is what their name is. But I haven't watched a ton of the show, so I don't know how accurate it is because, you know, reality TV. Yeah. And like, when they started the show, like, they got excommunicated and, like, kicked out of the polygamous group that I grew up in. So we grew up back to the trailers. We grew up in those trailers. Everybody had these trailers.

And like, I remember my siblings telling me that, like, in the morning, my mom would turn on the oven and they would, like, go warm up by the oven to keep warm. And that was, like, their heat in the morning. And it's so crazy because, yeah, I was two. So I don't remember. I don't have any memories. But I feel like, so all of my siblings, we all have, like, different traumas and different stories based on the age that we were. So I was two in my family split up and my mom was pregnant with my. my younger brother just below me.

And my mom stayed with my dad. And so after my family split up, we moved to Lehigh, Utah. And I have some memories in Lehigh, Utah, but not a ton. I, like, remember, like, playing with my little brother and, like, riding bikes, and we'd go on the porch and eat ants, like, just random little memories like that that I remember. But then when I was five, we moved to this little town called Mayfield that was like two hours south in Utah. And we moved to Mayfield because my dad was trying to start like a polygamous community there. And because there was like a polygamous community in like around Lehigh,

but I don't know why. I mean, I've never fully asked why they were trying to do that. But there were like some people that were from the polygamous religion as us that moved down that way but it didn't end up becoming this big thing but that's where I lived all of like my childhood till I moved out and in Mayfield there we we moved with like a family friend and they were the ones that like bought the property but we like there was two houses and so they lived in like this smaller house because it was just this older couple and then my mom's family lived in the bigger house and we were like surrounded by mountains and we had like a huge field and it was like honestly like fun in that sense as a child like we basically lived in the mountains

me and my siblings would go hiking and we'd build forts and all the things yeah quick question for you so growing up i know that you said you weren't raised in the what is it called the f l l ds church, were you being taught like any special like practices or religion growing up or anything? Yeah. So the polygamy that I grew up like this like the breakoff that I grew up in is called the AUB. Um, and they basically like these breakoffs believe a lot of like the LDS religion, but like their own spin off, right? Like everybody has like slightly different beliefs and some are like more bizarre than others. And I would say mine is probably like one of the most, like, least bizarre. But then like when I tell people, they're like, that's crazy. And like I was just at like an

event with these girls. And I was talking to them with my sister-in-law. And she was like telling them like how close we are and stuff. And they're like, oh, your guys, this story is so cool. Like you should tell that online. And she was like, this is not even like, actually. Ashley's most interesting thing about her. Yeah. And they're like, oh, tell me. And I was like working them up to it. And they're like, just tell me.

And I was like, I grew up in a polygamous family. And they're like, holy shit. And I'm like, it's so funny to like see people's reactions because I'm like, I think I'm so desensitized to it that like I forget how crazy it is till I tell somebody. And they're like, holy crap. Like that's so cool. Right. Well, I think also, too, like, that was your norm.

Like, that's what, yeah, like, if you don't know any different, then it's not going to seem, like, outrageous to you. Yeah, it's true. So, like, what were they, I guess, like, growing up, what were you, like, taught as far as, like, can you explain that? So is polygamous is considered a, or polygamy is considered a religion there? Yeah. Okay, because I didn't know that. And there's different polygamous religions. Okay.

Because there were, like, so many different breakoffs from the LDS Church. when they decided that they weren't living polygamy anymore. So, like, we grew up reading the Book of Mormon and the Bible and, like, believe that there's, like, a prophet that gets revelation from God. And so we've always had, like, a prophet that supposedly is supposed to be able to, like, have a connection to God. And is kind of, like, the leader. And, um, but yeah, I don't know if you,

know anything about the book of Mormon or the Bible, but yeah, we would read both. And it's, I think that most polygamous religions do read both, but it's like up to their own interpretation. Like, same with like the LDS church. Like they read the book of Mormon in the Bible and they have different interpretations of it. And so there's just so many different breakoffs that believe just different things. And with the FLDS, like, it's so easy to say. It's so easy to. spot, like, oh, you can tell, like, that's a polygamist. But, like, the pligamy that I grew up in, like, if you're in Utah, like, you probably have, like, talked to someone that's a polygamist and you don't even know it because they're just dressed normal. And, um, like, they wear long sleeves

because they were, like, a religious garment that is long-sleeved. But so, like, maybe in the summer, you could spot out, like, they're wearing long sleeves and it's hot. But, like, I had kids in school that would ask me like, do you change when you go home? Like, no. I just wear these clothes. And I think that's just like a common misconception. Like people always think that there's only FLDS polygamous. And one time I actually remember I went with my sister in St. George and we were at the mall and there was a couple of polygamous women there. And I like was like, oh my gosh, Camilla, there's polygamist and she was like actually you're a polygamist I'm like oh yeah like but even to me it was like crazy to see other polygamists even though I grew up in polygamy because it's like so different from

each other so that was just kind of a funny funny thing yeah so how old were you when your dad when you guys moved over to the other town I was five okay and he wanted to move there to kind of start like another little polygamous community like with the same AUB group just like there's little communities where people like kind of live together and they help each other and like practice the same practice they have the same beliefs and so he was kind of trying to do that and at this point he was only with your mom yes okay so he was just with my mom and why did the other wives leave I honestly Like, because I was so young, like, I wish somebody would just be, like, straight up.

Yeah. Like, nobody will really tell me exactly why. Like, I know that he, like, gambled and had kind of, like, a gambling addiction, but I don't know if that's why. Like, nobody will actually tell me why. So it's kind of annoying because whenever I ask, people are kind of, like, beat around the bush. I'm like, someone freaking tell me why. Now, do you still have a relationship with any of those wives or no? Kind of, but not really.

Like, we don't talk often. Like, if I were to run into them, like, they would be super nice. Okay. But you didn't, like, stay super in touch or anything. Yeah, but, like, we would call them, like, our other moms or our aunts. Like, that's what you call, like, the other moms is either your aunt or your other mom. Okay. And so we would always call them aunt.

And so, yeah, it's crazy because, like, having so many siblings, you would think that I'd feel, like, surrounded by like so much love and like we'd all be so close but we're not right i think it's because like we grew up in like a very broken version of polygamy i like i like to say that i grew up in like a divorced family but it's like a whole other level of divorced because i have all these other siblings and because my mom stayed with my dad this siblings would come and visit us but because we moved in that little town we were like at least a couple hours away from everybody. And so it wasn't super often that I would see my siblings, but they would come over like spring break or summer or a holiday. And anytime that they would come, it would be like the best thing

ever. I'd be so happy to see my siblings. And I would have all these siblings that are around the same age as me, like brothers and sisters. And I had, I have a sister that is 10 months younger than me and we're best friends. And I just remember every time that she had to leave, we would just, like cry our eyes out. And it was so traumatic for me as a kid because I, nobody would explain to me. Like, she's my sister. Why can't I always be with her? Why is she with me sometimes? And then all a sudden she has to leave and I won't see her for months. And that was really hard on my like little kid brain. And I think as I've gotten older, it was like more traumatic for me than I realized. Absolutely. Like thinking back. It was just traumatic. And every,

time that like my siblings would leave, I, I would like write songs. I've realized throughout my whole life, like music has been like a healing thing for me and I'll kind of like explain that through my whole life story. But I would write songs at such a young age. And it was literally like giving Cindy Lou Who, Where are you Christmas vibes? Like, where are my siblings? Why can't I find them? And people don't Why did you have to leave? Right. People don't realize that, you know, something that could seem so simple of like, oh, you know, your siblings just going back, you know, somewhere else for a little bit, that, you know,

the child brain, I don't think really can understand that, especially if there really isn't that explanation or understanding as to why it just feels like every time somebody's being ripped away from you that you care about and it hurts. It was like so painful every time. And sometimes I would go and visit her. at her house. But it wasn't super common. I only have like a couple of memories of going to her house and like visiting her. But it's just like crazy because like as a mother now, I'm just like, I can't imagine my kids constantly being ripped away from each other and also just not explaining

to them why. Because I feel like kids, like it's so hard for a kid's brain to understand the things that happened to them. And yeah, it's just crazy. Now, growing up, were you, did you have a pretty close relationship with your mom and dad? I feel like as I was, when I was younger, I feel like I had, I thought I had a close relationship with them, but I think it was around like 12, 13 years old that I, I don't know if my brain was developing more or like what it was. But as I got a little bit older, I started to just like start picking up on things and I'm like, that's not okay. Or like I feel neglected or there were just things

that as I started getting older, I would pick up on. And I would just like, I've always been like such a honest person. So I would just like tell them straight up. Like I don't think this is okay. Yeah. And I remember I have a memory of my mom wanting to have another kid. And this was after she had her last. And I straight up said to her, like, why would you have another kid when you can't take care of the ones that you have? And it sounds so harsh. But I'm like, I was like 12. Yeah.

But I think it's, that was just like me crying to her. Like, I don't feel like I get enough love from you. Like when you have so many kids, it's hard to separate that love and give it to them equally. And I like to say I have middle child syndrome because it's like to the next level, though, because it's like I'm the middle child out of 12 kids plus the other siblings from other moms thrown in there. And I'm actually one of the youngest out of all the siblings, which is crazy. I think I'm like number 38 or 39 out of it. of the 45.

But so I think I always felt like a little bit disconnected to my siblings too because I was always like one of the younger ones. Yeah. And I just always wanted to grow up so I could fit in and be with the other siblings. And I have siblings that are around my same age too, but so many siblings that are older. So would you say between five to 12, you didn't really like pick up on anything? Like it was pretty just like a normal childhood for you. Yeah, I feel like it felt pretty normal until, yeah, I started getting a little bit older and I was like, this is kind of weird.

Like, why don't I get to see my siblings all the time? Why did we split up? And like, it was so weird because so we have like a greenhouse and we would like plant tons of plants. And that was like my parents' way of doing tithing. I don't know if you know what tithing is, but in like a lot of churches, you'll give like a percentage of what you make to the church, but we didn't make money.

We were barely scraping by. And so they would get a bunch of seeds and make all these plants, and they would, like, give away, like, vegetables and plants. And that was, like, their way of doing tithing. But, like, another way that I feel like they felt obligated to, like, help others or maybe their tithing was to if there was someone that needed a place to live or needed help they would let them live with us but as a kid that was so hard because all of a sudden there'd be this random family that also has other kids and we're squishing them into the house yeah i was

like there was there was probably no room there was like three bedrooms upstairs and two bedrooms downstairs. One of the bedrooms upstairs was like a little tiny office area that we made a bedroom that had like hard floor and, um, and then downstairs we ended up building another bedroom. Okay. So then it ended up being three bedrooms downstairs and three upstairs. But with how many kids my mom had and then we're like having other families live with us, we were like squishing into this house with like random people. And yeah, I just feel like, uh, it was just, there was like added trauma in that way where it's just like these random kids like there was this family that lived with us and they had tons of kids I seriously don't know how we all fit in

the house together yeah it's like one of those clown cars that like people just keep coming out like where are these kids coming from like how yeah and I remember like walking down the stairs and the two kids were like touching themselves, like touching each other. And I was like, uh, what the hell? Yeah. So like I went and told my parents and it was like always like they just wouldn't believe you. Like you tell them things and they just like wouldn't believe you. And so then my older sister was like heard about it and she's like, I'm not letting my kids over there anymore.

And finally eventually they. ended up kicking those people out. But it was just like, it was always just like the most bizarre things happening. And there was like this family that ended up moving in with us. And she only had a couple of kids, but it's like thinking back, I'm like, this was totally inappropriate because I think that my dad and her had an interest in each other of her being like another wife. And anyways, she had a daughter that was like around the same age as me and she would always compare us and she would like as an adult I can look back and be like oh I can see why you were doing that but as a kid I'm like why is she treating me like this but she would call me ugly and that I am a terrible

person like just the most crazy things and she would like yell at me did your mom or dad know about this So I told them and they didn't believe me. Hi guys, today's episode is sponsored by Jasper. Okay, so I just moved into a new house and if any of you have moved before, then I am sure you can relate to all the new fumes, the smells, whether it's new paint, new furniture, chemical fumes. If you're moving into an older house, maybe it's some dusty air vents. Overall, we just don't know what we're breathing in and that's why I decided to get Jasper

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your air will be scrubbed clean, fresh, filtered, and you will feel a lot more safer and comfortable in your environment too. And now, back to the episode. But then one time, my dad actually walked in on her, like, saying some mess up shit to me. I seriously can't even remember. I just remember it being just always comparing me to her daughter and just how her daughter's so much better than me. And he walked up on it and it actually did make him mad. And he, we got, there's this huge fight. There's like this screaming match. And I'm just like a young girl. And I remember calling her a bitch and which was crazy because growing up, like we're not supposed to swear. Right. That is a huge no-no. But my dad didn't care in that moment because it was like just under the circumstances. But

there was just this huge fight and we ended up kicking them out and I was like you're a bitch blah blah blah and oh my gosh it was so crazy so okay so after I guess at this time did your dad ever have more wives again or it just was your mom from then on out from my mom from then on out okay did you end up staying in that town until yes so that's where like most of my memories are okay is in that house because we stayed there until I moved out. Which was what age? Almost 18. Okay.

I was just before I turned 18. I moved out. It's just like it's so interesting that because it's such a different way of life than what people are used to. Yes, for sure. And like yeah, it is and was the norm for you. But at the same time, like being an adult now, it's like you can reflect. I realize that it's not normal.

Yeah. And you can look back and like realize like, wow, like that's something that did create, you know, trauma for me. or made me, you know, like the way that you are. I mean, obviously, you seem great to me. But, you know, it gets you, it does give you a different perspective of kind of realizing what those things can do. I think even just having the disconnect between you and your parents.

And I don't think, honestly, I just, I don't think parents, especially the older generations, realize the effects of like, even just like not really believing your child at times. Yes. I don't think that they realize what it does. Yeah. like messes with something. Right. It like makes you feel like you always have to like explain yourself or prove yourself

or like or just like why would I even speak up if no one's going to believe me anyway. Yeah. So and I don't think people oftentimes realize that kind of stuff. Yeah. So true. So true. One random little story to just like give the vibe of like my house that I grew up in. So we were surrounded by mountains and we always had deer, tons of deer in our yard.

and I would walk up to deer and I would pet them. And that was like something that my like parents had always bragged other people about her. Like she can like walk up to deer and pet them. She's an animal whisperer. I was like a little animal whisperer. And it was like my favorite thing to do. I was like you have to do it this way and they go off of vibes. And I have always been such a vibe person even when I was a little kid.

and I was actually vegetarian for a couple of years because of that. Because I just felt so connected to the deer that I was like, how could I eat? Right. Bambi. How could I eat Bambi? Like that's so messed up. Yeah. And then my siblings for years were just like, just try the meat.

And I think one time I accidentally ate like pepperoni on a pizza and I was like, that was kind of good. Right. And then you're changed after that. I know. I had my vegetarian phase too. And then it's like, once you have a good piece of meat, you're like, oh, shit. I'm like, oh, that's actually so good. I think, too, when you're so, like, when you're young and you don't eat meat and then you, like,

I think it kind of, I don't want to say stunt your growth, but if you're not getting like the protein, it's like, I was so skinny for so long because like I just couldn't put on. I was tiny. Yeah. Tiny. And yet, so now you eat meat? Yeah. Okay.

Now I eat meat. Same. Same. Me too. Although sometimes it's like I'm like, I really don't like me. Like, it has to be like. I'm still picking. with me. I was just saying that last night. I'll eat it, but I'm so picky. Yeah, like,

sometimes weird texture. Yeah. I'm done. I'm ruined and I can't eat it. Yeah. Or if like it doesn't have some sort of like sauce or it's made right, I'm like, I don't want to get it down. I can't eat it down. I don't want to think about it. Yeah. No. Okay. So, I guess now, so you're 15 and then up until 18, was it, was your whole life, would you say like you were, like, was there any other changes that kind of happened that you experienced or that you went through. And I guess my other question is, because I feel like for most people, moving out at 18 is pretty young. Yeah. You know, so like, did you feel like you were just ready to get out? Yeah. I guess I'll just like get more into a little bit of my middle school years, high school

years. So in middle school, I was bullied so bad because I became from, because I came from a polygamous family. and like people would say like the nastiest things to me and I was called Pligbitch that was like people would like cough Pligbitch as I would walk by middle school was rough what the fuck how did they even come up with that term I don't know middle school ew kids are evil kids that at that age are so mean so I remember during that age I started having like suicidal thoughts but I didn't really understand what they were. Like why they were popping in my head. Like, why do I think sometimes that I want to kill myself?

But I would like sometimes would tell like a friend, like, oh, I want to kill myself, you know. But it's just weird looking back. And I just think that like suicide and those thoughts are things that are like not, it's not talked about enough. And so I would have those thoughts for years, I would say, for a really. long time in my life, I would have those thoughts and I didn't understand why they would pop in my head. But then in high school, things got better. I feel like kids were a lot nicer in high school. I was on the soccer team and I made friends on the soccer team. And I feel like kids just weren't as mean as middle school. I don't know. So I feel like my high school years were a lot better. But until it wasn't.

Right. So when I was 16 years old, my 14 year old brother took his own life. And when that happened, that was like probably the most like life changing thing that's ever happened to me. Like my life has never been the same since he took his life. And it's been like a huge part of like who I am as a person today. and but when he passed like I will never forget the day that it happened I it was like uh it was like over a holiday weekend it was like President's Day that Monday so we like didn't have school that Monday and my friend my best friend like we would always go to her house because I felt like my house was boring and it was old like there was like old carpet and it was smelly and I was like always embarrassed of it.

So like we'd always go to her house. We'd never hang out at my house because it was just boring. And we didn't have good food. Like she had good food and she had all the good things. But that day for some reason, she was just like, I want to come say hi to you. And I was like, okay, sweet. And so she like drove over and we were like 10 minutes away. Like she was in a little town called Gunnison and I was in Mayfield.

But she drove over to me and we were both hungry. So we started making nachos. and as we like pulled the nachos out and I put a nacho in my mouth and then we heard this horrified scream like it the the the scream will literally never leave my mind it's like ingrained in my brain but we looked at each other and she was like did your dad just have a heart attack and I was like I don't know but it's not good yeah and And next thing we know, my dad runs up the stairs. And he's like, he killed himself.

Oh, God, no, he killed himself. And I just looked at my friend and I just hugged her and screamed. And it's so weird because I feel like in that moment, everything stopped. It was like slow motion, but everything was happening so fast at the same time. I can't explain it. And I just hugged her and we screamed. And I think eventually she stopped screaming and I just kept screaming. And I was just holding her.

I wouldn't let her go. And eventually I looked out the window and I saw my sister that lived a few minutes away just fall to her knees. And she's just screaming, why, why, why? and then I finally let go of my friend and I see my mom just pacing the hallway. She's not crying. She's just straight face pacing the hallway. And I have my younger siblings that are just sitting on the couch crying

and they don't quite know why they're crying. Hey, I'm Jeremy Schwartz from American Criminal. On this season, robbery gone wrong or cold-blooded murder? Either way, Boston. and will never be the same. Listen to American Criminal the murder of Carol Stewart, wherever you get your podcasts.

Or to get early ad free access, subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at Americancriminal.com. And I walked up to my mom, and I was like, Dad saved him, right? Like, he's going to be okay, right? And that's when she lost it.

She just started sobbing, and she was like, no, Ashley. he's gone. And I was like, I don't believe you. He's not gone. And so I ran down the stairs. And at this point, cops were there. And there was a cop standing in front of the door. And he, I tried to go in. And he was like, you don't want to see him like that. And I think that's when it finally clicked in my head. Like, oh, he is gone when he said that. Like, you don't want to see him like that. And I just started kicking him and punching him. and he just stood there and took it. And I was like, let me see my brother.

Let me see my brother. And I'm so glad he didn't let me see him, but my brother hung himself in his room. And it's so crazy because the night before that happened, I had got home late. And I saw his light on. And him and I were really close. We were just two years apart. We were the only kids that were downstairs at this point. Some of my other siblings were grown up and moved out.

So we were the only two kids downstairs. And he always would come up with some excuse to keep me up late. And he would like come in my room and we'd watch YouTube videos together or we'd just like check in on each other. And I remember seeing his light on and I thought, no, I'll just go to bed. And I went to bed. And they were saying, like, based on how far he was gone, they think that he had done it that night. And so I probably would have walked in on him and been the one to find him if I had knocked on his door, tried to go in there. And it's so sad to me because the reason why my dad found him was because it was like 12.

at that point. And he was like, oh, I haven't seen Ammon. And that was my brother's name was Ammon. And he was like, I haven't seen Ammon in a while. And so he went to go check on him. But like, as a mother, it's so sad for me to look back at that because I'm like, I see my kids first thing in the morning. Like, why did it take, not against my parents. They have a lot of kids and it's like normal and it was also a holiday. and like we were all just busy doing our thing, but I'm like, I'm so attached to my kids that I'm like, I can't imagine not like checking in on them first thing in the morning. So it makes me so sad that even I like didn't even think like where is Amman? Like nobody was thinking that. And it was in the afternoon until we found him. And after we found him and after we found him and

all that happened, I just remember them just like taking them out in a body bag. And I was in that. So I was telling you how there was two houses on the property. So I went into that other house with we always, she was like our adoptive grandma is what we would call her. Like she wasn't our grandma, but she was our adopted grandma. So I went over there and it was February. So it was cold. And so she had like a fire going and we were all around the fire just trying to warm up. And I remember looking out the window and they were taking him out in a body bag. And I was just like still just in denial. Like there's no way that that is my brother. Like there's no way that that's him going out on a body bag right now. And then it just felt like everything happened so quickly. I just can't

explain it so quickly, quickly, but slow motion at the exact same time. But all of a sudden, I just had all of my family showing up. My house was full of my siblings. I have never seen all my siblings gathered together like this before. And we were all this hugging each other and sobbing together. And it was honestly like so needed. I feel like we all needed each other in that moment. and it was just like every hug was just like so healing and felt like the best hug you've ever had in your life and every cry was like so therapeutic like you just needed a hug and you needed to cry and I remember we were all together and like sometimes we would let out a little laugh because we'd just be talking as siblings and then all of a sudden we'd be like

why the crap? Like I feel so guilty for even just laughing despairly. And it was just like such a weird time of us all being together. And then like we had to plan his funeral. And I had like no part in that because I was 16. And like one of my, I know that like there was a few of my sisters and my siblings. And I don't know exactly who all just helped kind of. throw it together. But I am very thankful, like the polygamous community that I grew up in,

they did, like, fundraise his funeral because, like, we didn't have any money for a funeral. We didn't have money for a casket or anything like that. So I'm very thankful for that because, like, even though, like, what I grew up in, I feel like isn't normal. And there's a lot of things that I don't agree with and I don't believe in it. The community is nice. And there were moments where the community was like very... They'd come together. Yes. And so we had his funeral and before his funeral, they let us like go view him. So like me and my siblings went together and we went and viewed his body. And I just remember grabbing my brother that I'm like not even close to. and we just like we're holding each other as we walk through the door.

And the second we saw him, we're just like sobbing in each other's arms. And it's just like a bonding thing. But it's like, why does it take losing someone to bring us together, you know? But seeing his body was like, it just felt like a smack in the face, like, oh, this is real. Because you're in denial, denial, denial. and I never saw his body until then. So I just like kept denying it in my head. Like there's no way that this is happening.

And it's like every night that you'd go to bed, it was like, you can't even sleep because you're like gut punched with, oh, Amman killed himself. And then you're like trying to sleep again. And all of a sudden it's one in the morning and you're gut punched again awake. Amin killed himself. And it was like that for the longest. time, like the amount of sleep that I did not get for months after he passed is crazy. And it's just

like, you're going on living your life and you have to keep living your life. You have to wake up and eat breakfast. You have to get ready for the day. And it's like, I don't want to do those things. I don't even want to carry on anymore without him. And anyways, after we all viewed his body, then we had his funeral. a couple days later and it was just like so it was like so weird having his body in a casket and I I remember finding comfort being near his body but at the same time it also kind of creeped me out and I can't explain it it was like I'm comforted because I don't want to let your body go because then you're really gone even though he's already gone but at his

viewing. We all, like a lot of us siblings just stood by his casket and people would view his body. And I remember when they closed the casket for the funeral to start, I was just sobbing because it felt like I was saying goodbye. Like, this is the last time that I'm seeing his physical body. And so then at the funeral, it was like, they were just like, if you, if you want to talk, like, we'll leave this like open. spot for people to talk and I really didn't think that I was going to but then I like didn't want to regret it and so I remember getting up there and like talking a little bit and I just cannot even remember what I said but we also like I sing a song with my sisters at his funeral um and we were just like singing and crying because we're like singing I'm like I don't even know how we're

this right now, trying our best not to cry, but, you know, trying our best. And then we went to his gravesite and we had, his casket was blue because blue was his favorite color. And I feel like people, like for his funeral and everything, they kept asking me a lot of stuff because him and I were close. I can't even remember things that I told them, but I do remember telling them like blue is his favorite color. Like if we can get a blue casket, that would be really cool. And we were able to get one. And we all wrote, like with white marker, like a little goodbye thing to him. So his casket was just full of everybody's like goodbyes to him. And I feel like that was really therapeutic too, to be able to just being able to say goodbye. And then we like left flowers. And it was so hard,

just like seeing the casket go in the ground. And it was just like I kept feeling like I had to keep saying goodbye to him. It was like the casket closed, goodbye. And it was just like never enough. And it's so hard growing up in the Plugmas religion that I grew up in because they believe that if someone takes their life, that they're going to hell. So when my brother killed himself, I had, I like couldn't grieve properly. Like it was so insane because I'm like, my brother's in hell now.

Like, what am I supposed to do with that? Like my little brother is in hell. I'm never going to see him again because like they believe in eternal families. But there are certain things that you have to do to be with your eternal. family and I'm like I'll never get to see him again and I'm 16 years old and he was 14. I don't know if I said that he was 14 years old when he took his life and looking back I'm like that is so insanely young and he was literally a little kid and after he passed I put so much blame on myself and part of it was because I had this like kind of a weird thing that happened like a month before he

passed that you know those like things that are just like ingrained in your memory and it's like almost like that moment was still and you can always look back at it and remember exactly how it was and I remember I was driving in the car with my dad and my brother Amman and I had this random thought pop in my head Amman's going to kill himself and it made me so sick to my stomach. I was like, why the freak did that pop up in my head? Like, that is such a messed up thought. And so I, like, pushed it aside. I don't know why it popped up in my head, but then a month later, he killed himself. And I felt so guilty for not, like, acting on that thought I had, like, checking in on him, like, are you doing okay? Or, like, telling my parents,

but I didn't feel like I could tell my parents anything. Like, I didn't have that relationship with them where I felt like I could go to them. But I think too, like with a thought like that, there's a lot of times that we'll have these thoughts that we just think are crazy. Yeah, for sure. And it's like, oh, is that just like a fear I have? Yeah. And that's why it popped in my head?

But why do I have that fear? It was like almost like I was in tune with something. Like I was in tune with him, but I didn't realize that I was because I was so young too. Now, did he like, did he have any struggles that you knew of? It's so hard because I didn't realize that he did, like, when we were together, because, like, he did have anger issues. He had a lot of anger in him, but he was also just the sweetest kid ever. Yeah.

And with me and him, though, like, he couldn't be mad at me. Yeah. If he raised his voice at me, two seconds later, he's apologizing. He could never be mad at me. We had like this special bond. We always got along. And when we didn't, it was like instantly apologizing and we're making it right. And so he had anger issues and he would get mad at like other people or at school.

Like he would get in fist fights with kids at school. But like it's like not until you look back where you're like, okay, there maybe were some signs. Yeah. But if you don't know the signs to look for, you might just be like, oh, it's just like a regular teen having issues. Or like a bad day or they're frustrated. Yeah. Yeah. And so after he passed, we were just like, how did we not see the signs?

And I, and not to speak for any of my other siblings or anybody else, but I know that there's definitely other people that felt some guilt and some blame too. But after losing him, I felt the guilt and blame so heavily that I became suicidal because I was like, I can't explain other than. I just truly believe it was my fault. I was like, this is my fault that he died. If I would have done this, this, or this, he wouldn't have died. And I caused all of my family this pain.

I caused it. And I truly believe that. I was like, I did this to my family. I do not deserve to be here. And I would have thoughts like, they probably don't want me here. Like, they probably do think it was my fault. And I just, had these thoughts, I would think of exactly how I was going to do it. And I would be like driving in a car

and I would just be like, maybe I'll just turn into this semi. Or maybe I'll just start driving really fast and swerve off the road. And hopefully that will kill me. And, um, or maybe I'll just like, take all these pills. I'll just take all these pills and that will kill me. And I was having all these thoughts and I wasn't telling anybody because I was like, nobody wants to hear it. Like I deserve this. And this is where it gets kind of like crazy. So this is where my husband starts to kind of come into the picture. So I met my husband in the same polygamous religion that I grew up in. And I was 14 and he was 16 when we met each other. And we met at like a church event. And I remember him just standing out to me. He had the brightest blue eyes and he just had a very kind,

personality and I instantly had a crush on him. I was like, but I never had self-worth. I thought it was so ugly and I didn't think that I deserved to be with anybody great. So I was always like, oh, I hope that I can be with someone, someone like him, you know. And we like kind of talked for a little bit, but he lived two hours away from me because I still lived in that little Mayfield town where we tried to have a polygamous community, but not very many people. people ended up moving out there. And so we kind of like separated our ways and hadn't talked for a few years. But 12 days after my brother took his life, my now husband Paul, so Paul's brother died in a construction

accident just 12 days after my brother passed. And when his brother died, we just ended up. reaching out to each other because we're both, like, grieving our brothers, and we started talking on Snapchat, and after we lost our brothers, it really, like, brought us together, gave us, like, we just both, like, we both were really close with our brothers that passed, and, like, he came from a polygamous family, too, and his brother was from the same mom as him as well. And I don't know if I said that. It was my little brother that took his life was from the same mom. is me. It was two years younger than me. So we grew up just doing everything together. But

after my husband lost his brother and I lost mine, we just grieve them together and we got super close. And I remember one night, him and I were, we went and got dinner and then we just drove off in his truck and just parked somewhere. And it's just like, I feel like any guy I was ever with always just wanted to like kiss me or get some like oh he's pulling off to the road like he's gonna want to like make out with me or something and he just wanted to talk and he was just like and like during this time like I was still just having like those heavy suicidal thoughts and still just keeping it to myself and he just randomly started pouring his heart out to me and he was like I don't know what I would do without you. I couldn't live this life if you were not here.

You have helped me so much. You are such a good person. You bring so much to this world. And he just like, just basically just poured his heart out to me and was just telling me how amazing I am and how he couldn't handle if I ever left this world. And when he told me that, it's like something like clicked in my brain. and I was like, somebody cares about me. Like, somebody thinks that I matter, even though I'm such a terrible person and I let my brother die. Like, these are the thoughts that are in my head.

Like, I truly thought I was just the worst person ever. Like, I let my brother die and it's my fault, but he still thinks I'm an amazing person, and he wants me here, and he needs me here. And it clicked something in my brain and I was like, okay, if I'm not going to live for myself and if nobody else wants me here, not saying that they didn't, but this is like what's going on in my brain, this is how I felt. Like if nobody else wants me here, then at least I can live for him. Like, I can fight for him. And slowly through that process, I started to learn that it wasn't

my fault and I started to just work through like the guilt and the blame that I had put on myself. And I do feel like that was a process, but I truly believe that Paul saved my life that night because I really didn't have anybody else that I felt like it could turn to. And it's looking back and after learning, it's actually so common for people to be, if you lose someone to suicide, to become suicide. sidle yourself. And that's a very common thing that happens, but I obviously didn't know that back then. But did your parents ever talk about his death at all or not really? No. Like, they didn't talk about it a ton. It was almost like we tried to just like carry on with our life and just like

almost like move on. Yeah. And that was something that I struggled with because I'm like, how is everybody continuing to live their life? Like nothing changed. Not saying that they shouldn't because you have to. You kind of have to keep living your life. But I'm like, how are people doing this? Like, I just want to lay in bed and never leave again. Like, how are people just continuing to live their life? And I think that's probably the time too that you needed someone most to talk to. Yeah. Yeah. And I, like I had my older siblings and I had people that I felt like sometimes I could talk to. but in those moments like when you feel that guilt or that blame or feel like you're a burden it's so hard to go to somebody and talk to them because it's like I'm just a burden like nobody

wants to hear this nobody cares and so after he passed it was like I put myself in his shoes and I was like man this is like how he felt like he felt this low that he ended up taking his and it's so hard because I, after he passed, I looked through like his YouTube search stuff and there were like alarming songs and videos that he was watching and one of the videos that I found was actually a song, I don't even know how the hell this stuff is on the internet, but it was a song about someone hanging themselves. And, but in the song, someone, like, they went to hang themselves and someone walked in. And they ended up not hanging themselves.

And they were embraced with this love and all these things. And so, like, when I listened to that, I'm like, it was so hard for me to not be like, was this just a cry for help? And he was hoping somebody would walk in and then nobody did? Yeah. It was back to me. And so that was so hard for me because I'm like, I saw his light on. I could have maybe walked in before he did it.

Who knows? Like it would have been before he did it or after he did it and nobody really knows. But I'm like putting the blame on myself again because I'm like, should I have walked in his room that day? Because I remember it so distinctly seeing his light on and walking past and thinking, no, I'm just going to go to bed tonight. And I do think that it worked out the way that it should have. And like, I think I would have been the one to find him. And I wouldn't have been able to handle that. So I'm very thankful that I didn't.

But it's just like all these things that you pile on to yourself and you guilt yourself and you blame yourself. And it was so hard for me to work through because I didn't go to therapy. I didn't have a close relationship with my parents. I didn't feel like I could go to them and talk to them. them about it. And also, like, my, like, my mom has always been, like, not very emotionally available. And I think that's, for one, like, a generational thing, like, cycle that she's kind of carried. And also, like, she had so many kids. And so I just, like, didn't feel that close bond to, like, go to her. And so I really, like, leaned on Paul. Like, he is really who, like, helped me

through that. But it's just crazy because like when Paul and I got together though, like we both grew up in the same polygma's religion. So when we started dating, we were planning on living polygmy. Like we were going to have sister wives and like live that way. Really? Yes. Because that was like the way that we were raised. Yeah. And like he lost and this is like where it made our our dynamic even harder is like he lost his brother. And it's like, I lost my brother to suicide, so he's in hell according to how we grew up. But his brother isn't. And in order for him to be with his brother again, he has to live that way is what we were taught. And so we were like, we have to live this way so that we can be like with your brother again. And like also at this point,

like, I will say like I had to like work through a lot, but I don't believe my brother is in hell. And that was something that I had to work through, but it was hard because I even had people from the polygamous religion that I grew up in that would compare like mine and my husband's brother's death. And she was like, I'll just, there's like those situations that you'll just never forget because you're like, that's wild. Who the hell says something like that? But she was like talking about my husband's brother

and she was just like, yeah, the grief with him was so hard. I can't even imagine your grief with your brother knowing he went to hell. And I just remember like, I'm just like shaking, but I'm trying to like not cause a scene in front of people. And I just had to leave. I was just, and I remember just leaving and sobbing, and I'm just like, how can I be in this religion that believes that my brother's in hell when I don't think he is? And like, I had like some spiritual experiences after he passed that made me feel like he was in a good place. And one of them was like,

after he passed, I had a dream. And I'm not like, oh, dreams or whatever. But like, I do believe that like when people pass, like sometimes they can come to you and your dreams. And I, after he had passed, I was just like struggling so bad with the thought that he was in hell and I didn't know what to do with it. And I had a dream once that I just remember it was dark outside and I was standing outside my house and my other brother and my dad were talking and I could hear them so well even though I was outside. It was almost like I was inside with them, but I wasn't. I don't know. And I was just like listening to their conversation. And all of a sudden, this like, my brother Ammon came up to me in like super sonic speed,

like super fast speed. It was like a light. He like came up to me and he was like, I'm okay. I'm okay, actually. You don't have to worry about me. I'm okay. And I'm like, what? You're okay?

Like, then why aren't you here? Like, then come back. Come back. I miss you. And then he just zoomed off. And I woke up. And I remember after having that dream, I just felt this, like, strong comfort of, like, he's in a good place and he's okay. And I felt like I needed that because the weight of him being in hell was so heavy to me.

Yeah. And it's hard because when you grow up in such a high demand religion, and I would honestly say cold, it's, like, hard because you have been told since you're a child, all these things. And it's like you can't even think for yourself because it's like this is the way and this is the truth. And so how traumatic it was for me to for him to take his life and for him to be in hell, that alone when I'm already trying to grieve him was so hard because I'm like, he's in hell. I will never see him again. So then what is even the point of doing? the right thing. Like that's like my thoughts. I'm like, why would I live this way and live righteously if I don't even get to be with my brother in the end? And it was just so hard for me

to grieve him. And so after having that dream, I just started to feel some peace. And I feel like it took time for me to just like kind of like honestly deconstruct some of the stuff I was taught. Now, did you talk to Paul about this? Like some of the thoughts you were having of like, that I guess maybe you were thinking differently than the way that you were raised. Yeah. So like when Paul and I started dating, we both had told each other like, yeah, I believe this is the way we're supposed to live. But I don't know about the plural marriage part.

And plural marriage is like means when you have multiple wives. But only the man can have multiple wives. But we would talk to each other about that. And I remember feeling comfort because I'm like, at least he's not like, yeah, I want to get all these wives. Yeah. So it made me, like, have comfort because I always had this fear that I would be married off to some old man who didn't give a shit about me. And I think that that stemmed from, like, some of my older siblings, like, so when someone's dating you in polygamy, it's called courting. And what they do is the man goes to your dad and they say, I want to get to know your daughter. And then our dad gets to say, yes or no. And I remember my sister, there was this way older dude. He was like rich, but he was like old and way older than her anyways. I wouldn't say he was like a 50, 60, 70 year old man, but he was

way older than her. And he asked about my sister. And she was like, no dad. And he was like, you have to give him a shot. Like you have to at least like get to know him. So that guy came to dinner at our house. And I just remember my sister's literally like still a teen. She's like maybe 18. Like she's so young. And she's just like giggling off with my other sister. And like they're kind of like making fun of the situation because they're like uncomfortable.

Yeah. They're just uncomfortable. And we had dinner with him. And that after they had the dinner, my sister was like, nope, I do not. want to be with him and then my dad let it go. But, and maybe he didn't. I don't know. She might have a different story where maybe he pushed it a little more, but I don't know.

So basically, if the dad says yes to a guy that comes, you know, asking about one of the daughters, then the daughter basically doesn't have a choice. Like, she kind of has to. That's how it was for us. But I wouldn't, like, I can only speak for us because I think every family dynamic is different. Okay. And I don't think that every dad would make. their daughter. I think a lot of dads would like ask their daughter, are you okay with this?

But for some reason, he was just like, no, you at least have to give him a shot. And then age is not really a problem kind of thing. Not really, no. I think some people that are in it would say that, oh, age, whatever, but I'm like, no. My mom was 17 and married my dad when he was 41. Like, she, and like, that was like back then, like now they won't let you get married unless you're 18, but she was 17 when she married him. And he was way older than her. And so yeah, there's definitely some age gaps for sure, especially when you're getting multiple wives. Yeah. It's like, as you're growing older, if you want to have another wife and it's a woman that's not taken, a lot of times it is a younger

woman. Yeah. And I do feel like it was way more common even when my like parents were younger to like marry younger woman. I don't think it's as common now, but it's still. It's still happens for sure. So then you and Paul kind of decided no to the sister wives. Well, it took us a while. Okay. So I'll kind of get into that because it's like when you grow up in such a high demand religion, it is so hard to honestly like think for yourself. And like I was taught, specifically myself was taught that like if you have thoughts outside of the religion, like, oh, like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this or I don't agree with this, then that's from the devil. So any time I would have thoughts, I would kind of like try and push them aside because I'm like,

oh, that's coming from the devil. So when Paul and I got together and we were dating, we both were like, yeah, I'm kind of uncomfortable with the pro-marriage part, but we're going to have to do it, basically. Yeah. But it made me feel like a little more comfort knowing that he was at least on the same pages me. But so we dated and he started dating me after I lost my brother, which was my junior year in high school. We literally started talking like, so our brothers died in February. So my brother was February 15th, 2015. And his brother was February 27th, 2015. And we started like talking and hanging out in April of that year. So it was only a couple of months after we lost our brothers. So we were like in the thick of grieving when we came together. And it was also really hard because when him and I

started dating, my, like there's your last name in there, like your family's last name has a big input in how like people will think about you and like kind of how you're treated, honestly. Like my last name did not have a good rep. So when my husbands are dating me, I don't want to say all of his family, but some of his family was not like on board. On board. They were not on board. That's crazy. And they had heard some things.

Like I had kissed boys and I had boyfriends. And I, I was seriously, like as a teenager, I would do everything I could to get my parents' attention, honestly. Yeah. Like, I, it's like so crazy, but like I would go months not being at home and my parents wouldn't even ask where I was. Like I literally lived at my best friend's house and her parents literally like would feed me and I would wear her clothes and go to school. So it wasn't like they were, your parents were super strict. No. Okay. But every sibling had a different parent. So like my older siblings, I feel like had way more strict parents. But then with me,

being that middle child and I'm starting like they've had, you know, six more kids above me or whatever. Yeah. They start getting a little more lenient and also like overwhelmed. Right. And so how do you keep up with them? I think they were just like happy if somebody was, they knew somebody was taking care of me. Yeah. And so it's just like crazy for me as a mother looking back. I'm like I can't even imagine not checking in on my kid. Like I lived at my best friend's house. Yeah. And I also lived at my older sister's house. So. So my mom's oldest is my sister Camilla. And to this day, I call her Mama Cam because she helped raise me.

Yeah. It's like a weird dynamic with her because it's like she's my sister. But I also feel like a mother relation to her. I can't explain it. She is third. I think she turns 39. Okay. So she was 11 years older than me.

Was, is 11 years older than me. And so she really. helped raise me and a lot of my siblings. And we would, she would have to take us under her wing all the time and would take care of us when she got married and had her own family. And luckily, she lived close by. And so she would really take care of us. So I was seriously at her house or my best friend's house. And it would be months without like, finally like my mom or dad would call my sister and be like, have you seen Ashley? Yeah. And she's like, yeah, she's been at Kimmerie's house for a month. Right. Crazy. And then did any of your other siblings end up doing the multiple wives? Yes.

Okay. So some of my siblings did end up living polygamy. Some of them ended up living pligamy and actually ended up leaving. So I would say most of my 45 siblings do not live polygamy. But there is like a good handful that do. But then there's also some that I've left. So. What is the most amount of wives that some of them have? Gosh, I don't know. Has it ever been more than the six that your dad had? Do you think? Yeah, there's definitely like some that have had like 10 wives.

Like, crazy. Yeah, a lot of wives. And then a lot of your siblings have kids, I assume, right? Yeah. So the family's only getting bigger. Oh, yeah. I have a very big family. And then do you guys all get together?

we it's kind of sad because this last year we haven't done it but we usually do like a sibling like family reunion yeah once a year where just the siblings get together okay but it's hard because there's just like so much random stuff that's happening yeah it's kind of like divided us a little bit and then everybody has their own lives and does everyone still live in Utah not everybody but most do? Okay. Yeah. And what's crazy is like the first time I met a couple of my siblings was at my brother's funeral. It was the first time I had even met them. Yeah. And they were super cool. I'm like, you're my sister. You're cool. Or like, you're my brother. You're so cool. But I don't know if I ever would have met them if it wasn't for my brother passing. And when my brother died, I do feel

like it brought me and my siblings and my family really close for a while. But then like time has passed and it's been 10 years. And so everybody just kind of has their own lives. And I don't hold it against anybody. Like everybody has their own families. And it's hard to keep in touch with everybody. Yeah. It's just so hard to keep in touch with everybody. So did you end up leaving the religion? Yeah. So my husband and I were dating and we started dating when I was a junior. junior in high school. And then right after I graduate, and we were doing a long distance relationship because he had lived in Lehigh, Utah, and I lived in Mayfield, and we were about two hours away from each other. So like every weekend, I would go up and drive to him because I'm like,

there's way more stuff to do up there. I don't want to just chill at my house. And honestly, like, I really hated being at my house after my brother passed. And when he passed, I actually ended up, like, moving out of my room. And we, at some point, my parents ended up building this other tiny little, like, house thingy. And there was, like, a room at the top of the house. It was kind of like the bottom was, like, this office room for my dad. And then the upper room was, like, a bedroom. And so I ended up moving into that bedroom after he passed because I was like, I can't even be down here. And it's so, like, sad looking back because, like, even when I think of those memories, like my room was always a mess. Like I was never up on my laundry.

Like I would wear the same dirty clothes to school sometimes. And I'm like, I feel so embarrassed. Like I would literally wear the same dirty clothes. Like I didn't, I didn't know how to wash my laundry. And my mom had so many kids. Like I can't even imagine trying to keep up on the laundry. And so when I moved out of there, it was just a freaking bomb. And like a couple of my siblings helped me move out of there. And I just remember being so embarrassed because I'm like, this is a freaking shit hole that you're walking into. Like there's food plates everywhere and there's dirty clothes. And I just remember, like you weren't really taught. I just remember at one point, like we had like mice.

And there was like mouse poop in one of my drawers where my clothes were sitting. Like looking back, I'm like, how the hell did I just like live that way? I don't know, but it's all I knew. Right. And so I just remember being embarrassed, though. And we moved my, then I moved into that room and that's where I lived until I ended up moving out. So when my husband and I were dating, I would just go there every weekend if I could. I also had like a job at like a lots of lots of pizza is what it was called.

And I remember I ended up telling them like, oh, I babysat on Saturdays because they always wanted me to work Saturdays and that was the only time that I could see my boyfriend. And so I was like, oh, I can't work Saturdays because I like babysit or whatever. And even like I've always just been such an honest person. So any little lie like that, I'm like, to this day, I'm like, I feel so guilty. Yeah. I feel so guilty for lying about that. But I would go and visit him every weekend. He would hardly come down to me just because there wasn't really much to do. And he lived in like more of a like city area where there's like food places and things we can do and like friends up there and and what ended up happening with his family. I think that's what we were talking about too with that. That kind of took some

time. So like his so his some of people in his family were like telling him like I will not let you be with her. She dresses immodestly. She has been like inappropriate with boys and he just like didn't give a crap. what they said about me. He was like, I can tell that she's a good person. I literally, and even if all those things were true, I literally don't care. And that's what he would tell me. He's like, I literally don't care. Now, would it upset you when you heard? Yes. It was so hard for me because when him and I started dating, I'm still grieving my brother. I'm still feeling guilt from that. I'm suicidal. And then I'm finding this boy who's like so kind to me loves me for who I am but then his family is like screw you girl like you're not welcome there there were some of his family members and some of his

siblings that were very kind to me from the beginning but there were some of them that were like no right this is not going to happen we will not allow him to be with you and so that was so hard because I just wanted a face place that I felt like I belonged because I didn't feel close to my parents and I felt this like disconnect with my family and I was like I just want like a family. Like I just want to like feel like I belong somewhere and these guys don't even want me. And I think I just stayed because Paul was just like, I love you for who you are. Like they'll come around and I love you for who you are. And I don't care about your past.

And so when we were dating like people would, you know, there were all kind of. of rumors flying around about me. And it's kind of like I would say like a small town. If you even know like small town vibes, but like when you grow up in a small town, like everybody knows everything about everybody and everybody's talking shit. Yeah. And that's kind of how it is in like the polygamous community. It's like everybody knows everything about everybody and they'll be gossiping if they hear

something. And so there was like, and like some of the things that they would say, they're like someone that knows the Matthews, that was my last name, someone that knows the Matthews really well. says this and this about Ashley. So like, you shouldn't be with her. And he would just come and tell me. And he would feel bad telling me. But he would also feel bad, like, not telling me the things that people were saying. So he'd be like, this is being said about you. And even if it were true, I literally don't care. And so I was like, it was just shocking because, like, at this point, he's still wanting to be a polygamist. And I just don't feel like that's super common. It's kind of like, oh, you.

You've kissed boys and you've had boyfriends and you've made out like boys and you've done all these things. Like you're trash. Right. Like it's either you're all in it or like you're out of it. Yes. You're trash. And so for him to just continually just reassure me like I don't care about your past. I love you for who you are.

Was so just refreshing and honestly. It's crazy because I think even if he was a piece of shit, I would have stayed with him. Because I had no self-worth and I didn't really know who I was. And so I just feel very lucky that he ended up being a kind of understanding person. And I truly believe that we were meant to be together because, you know, and I believe that our brothers brought us together and as crazy as it sounds. But so when I graduated high school, he proposed to me a month later. And then two months after we got married. So we were engaged for two months and they got married.

Got married fresh out of high school, a little 18-year-old. Now, did he have to get approval from your dad? Yes. Okay. Which my dad ate that shit up. He was like he's in the same polygamous group as us. That's all I care about. Yeah.

That's all he cared about. He made okay money. Yeah. And so he was like, oh, he makes money. He's in the same religion as us. Like, take her. Take her. Yeah.

Take my daughter. Like I was saying too, like I feel like, I feel like, I it's just so weird because it's like I at the end of the day it would have been whatever no matter who I ended up being with but I think they were very happy that I ended up marrying a man that wanted to live polygamy yeah but um him and I so like they go through like a temple and when you get married they have like a temple and you get sealed and that's when you like get sealed for eternity and you have like eternal families and him and I ended up not doing that. We, we didn't feel ready. We had been a little sexually active before we got married and that's like a huge no-no if you want to go through the temple and get like sealed to each other. So we honestly just felt like guilty getting sealed because we had been sexually active. And so we like held off. And so we just had like a civil, regular marriage ceremony. but because we were so young and didn't have a lot of money, I just feel lucky because, like,

his sister, her in-laws had like a beautiful backyard and they had had weddings there before and they let us do it there for free. Oh, that's awesome. So I felt so lucky looking back because I'm like, I probably would have just got like married in a church with like little to no decorations and I just wanted to get married. So I was just like, as much as like I had a dream of having this like beautiful wedding. I also, growing up the way I did, I'm like, but that's not possible. So it's kind of like, even though we're getting civilly married, I can't expect this like

beautiful, amazing wedding because like normally you wouldn't have that anyways, if that makes sense. So we got married and it was so crazy because the man that married us was like a man that is a polygamous in the group. and we always, it's called the group. Like a lot of times, if I ever say the group, I'm talking about the polygamous religion that I grew up in. It's called the group.

And he was from the group and he married us. And when we, and I'm so sad, like, we didn't even say vows. So maybe one day we'll do that. Yeah. But we didn't even say marriage vows or anything because people were like, that's stupid. Like, and they're like kind of like. Is that just not common in the religion? No, because you don't have, you don't have civil.

ceremonies. You just like get sealed in their temple usually. And so we had a civil ceremony and the guy that married us randomly stopped during the middle of the ceremony, pulled the mic away and he leans into us and says, what you're doing right now doesn't matter unless you two live like an eternal life, like unless you guys make this real. And so he was like telling us, like if we do not live polygamy, this literally doesn't even matter. And looking back, I'm like, that is so crazy to just like say to us in the middle of our ceremony. Right. And I remember my siblings asking me like, what did he whisper to you guys? And I was like, oh, nothing. Like I didn't really like tell people because I felt guilty. I was already feeling guilty about having a civil ceremony

and not going through their temple. So I was like, oh, nothing, like blah, blah, blah. And it's like, instilling fear. Fear. Oh, very fear-based. It's like, if you don't do this, nothing else matters. And so that made us feel guilty. We're like, well, shit. Like, we're pieces of shit. Like, what are we doing? And so luckily, like, we were able to have, like, a good honeymoon. People had given us, like, money at our wedding and, like, we went to Hawaii. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, we had, like, a good honeymoon and stuff. So you got married at what age, 18? Okay. Fresh out of high school. And he was 20.

Yeah. Okay. Yep. The first year of our marriage, we were like, let's just be married. Let's not have kids, which like also isn't super common. It's like we were taught like to have as many kids as you can and to multiply and replenish the earth. Like that's what it is.

Like having babies is multiplying and replenishing the earth. And so we were like, oh, like I just kind of want to like enjoy each other just a little bit before we start a family. So we'll wait a year, which honestly felt so long. felt so long to wait a year to have kids. And so after a year after we got married, we started trying for our first child and we got pregnant right away. And I had the worst pregnancy of my whole freaking life. Oh gosh. Were you just sick? sick. Yeah. I had lost 20 pounds. I was so before I got pregnant, I would say I was like 120 pounds. And then I lost 20 pounds. That's scary. I was 100 pounds.

20 weeks pregnant. I was 100 pounds. You couldn't keep anything down? No. And like it wasn't even that I was puking all the time because I wasn't puky. I've never been like a puky person, but it was like I always had this constant nausea that never went away and it suppressed my appetite. Right, you just didn't want to eat.

And then I would try and eat and it's like I would feel full. It was like I couldn't get food down. And I look back at my doctor, I'm like, you're an idiot. Because like how did they not? Like they weigh you every time you come. come in. And I'm like, how were they not seeing that I was losing all this weight? Like, they never said anything to me. And I was so sick. And it was my first pregnancy. Were you sick the whole way through? Yes, until I gave birth, until the day I gave birth. And I was just like deathly ill. And I,

it was my first pregnancy. I was so young. And I just didn't even know any different. Yeah. I didn't realize. I was like, I guess like being pregnant just sucks. Yeah. And so had the worst pregnancy of my life. Now did you give birth in the hospital? Yes. Okay. So I went back and forth because home births are super common. Right. In the religion that I grew up in. And there's actually like really awesome midwives in the polygamous religion that I grew up in because it's more common. They're devoted to it. They dedicate their lives to like being midwives and they're really good at it. And they have like all the things that you need. And so I went back and forth. But then I was like, I don't know how my birth will go.

Yeah. Especially you're being so sick the whole time. Yeah. So I was like, I've been so sick. I don't know how my birth will go. And so I want to at least have one hospital birth and see how it goes. And so everybody kept telling me like it's your first baby. You'll go overdue and it'll be the longest labor of your life.

So I'm just like young, naive, sick on my deathbed. And I'm like, I'm not having this baby anytime soon. Jokes on me. Joke is on me because at 36 weeks of me, In four days, I was having the worst back pain of my life. And I ended up calling my sister Camilla, Mama Cam, and I was like, I just have really bad back pain. So I'm going to hop in the bathtub and just see what happens, like see if I can relieve pain, basically. And so she's like, okay, let me know how it goes.

Like, really, like, as I'm telling you this, like, Camilla is who I would go to. Like if I, like, I feel like normally you'd go to your mom and you'd call her and say that, but like I've just haven't had that connection with my mom. Yeah. And I wouldn't even say it's because my mom's this terrible mom. It's just like there's so much that goes into it. And like I have a lot of compassion for her because she was literally groomed at 17 to marry this older man. And that's all she's ever known.

And her parents also lived polygamy and she had an emotionally unavailable mother. And so even though I feel like, it's like not normal or okay. I have a lot of compassion. Yeah. But anyways, um, I would always call Mama Cam if I ever needed anything. And I hopped in the tub and like two minutes later, I start feeling this insane pain. And I'm like, what is going on? All of a sudden I hear a pop and I feel my baby drop. And I'm like, I literally heard a pop. I was like, What? The crap is going on. And this is all while you're in a tub.

Yes, alone. Naked in a tub. And I hop out of the tub and I call my sister back. I'm like, Camilla, I just heard like a weird pop in the tub and I felt a weird pain. And she was like, Ashley, you're water broke. And I was like, there's literally no way my water broke. And she was like, yeah, I did. She was like, put a pad on, lay down on your bed and see what happened.

So I put a pad on and I laid on my bed. I'm just staying on the phone with her. And after a couple of minutes of talking, she's like, now stand up and see what happens. I stood up water gushing everywhere, full on everywhere. And I'm like panicking. I'm like, no, I'm not ready. I'm like 36 weeks and four days. I'm like, not even full term. I'm like, no, I'm not ready. This is not happening. And she was like, you need to call Paul and get to the hospital. And she lives two hours from me. Because when Paul and I got married, I ended up moving up north. Okay.

I kind of missed that, but I moved up north when I was 17, almost 18 to be like with him. And then we got married soon after I had moved up. So I lived in that like Lehighish area. And my sister still lived in Mayfield. That was two hours away. So I didn't even have her. Yeah. And so she was like, you need to call Paul and tell him so you can get to the hospital.

and was like, no, please don't hang up on me. So she called her Alexa. And she was like, Alexa, call Paul. So she's still on the phone with me, has her Alexa call my husband. And she's like, Paul, Ashley's water broke. You need to get to the hospital. And he was like, are you sure? Like, I've heard that, like, sometimes you think your water broke, but it didn't actually

break. And she's like, no, it broke. It's gushing everywhere. Like, she's having contractions now. And you need to get to the hospital. and Paul was working an hour away from me. So luckily, my sister that's like my best friend, she's five years older than me from my mom.

She lives in Montana, but she was visiting. Because a bunch of us sisters were actually supposed to be going on like a sister's trip to St. George and that's why she was down. I ended up ruining the whole trip. It didn't end up happening because I went into labor. But she was staying at another sister's house from another mom that was just five minutes away. So Camilla called Heather, my sister and was like, Heather, Ashley's in labor.

You need to go pick her up. And so she left her kids with that sister, came to pick me up. But my house is locked. I'm butt naked, having contractions two minutes apart. Oh, God. And so she's panicking. She's banging on the door because she's thinking I'm giving birth. In there by yourself.

In there by myself. Because she knew that my contractions were close together. And she's given birth before. So she was like freaking out. And it's also like my first birth. So she's like, oh, my sister, like she's having her first baby. So she's excited and she's just banging on the door. And so I have to walk down my stairs, having the worst contractions of my life,

unlock the door, had to walk back up to get dressed. And she just threw a dress over me. Yeah. And so she just threw a dress over me. We hopped in the car and we're driving there. And I am just breathing through my contraction. How far was the hospital? The hospital was just like 25 minutes away.

Okay. Probably felt like a lifetime. It felt like a lifetime. And in the car, it made the contractions worse. And so I'm just, but I did like some hypno birthing classes. It kind of helps like you learn how to breathe through contractions because I was still like, I might still have like an unmedicated birth even though it's a hospital birth. Yeah.

But I'll just play by air and see how it goes. So I wanted to be able to like breathe correctly and do those things. And I remember at one point the contraction was. so strong on the drive that I started like high pitch squealing. It made it hurt so much worse that I just went back into the zone. And I was just like deep breathing through the contractions. And I realized that made them so much more bearable. And then we get there and it's so crazy because my husband got there the exact same time as we did. He pulled up right behind us. He was hauling ass. And he had car pulled with someone to work. So he had to take their car.

And so they get a wheelchair, they will chair me in. And mind you, I did not look full term. I was sick the whole time. Right, you lost the weight. I was tiny. I had finally gained back at the end of my pregnancy. It got a little better, but I was still sick. But I had gained back the weight that I had lost plus 15 more pounds. So still not a ton in pregnancy. I was only 15 pounds above my birth weight. And I also just carry. small as it is. So they will me in and they're like confused. Are you sure? Yeah. They're like, are you sure? And they're like, yes, she's in labor. And so then they check me and I don't know if you know dilations or anything like that, but they like you dilate from like a zero to a 10. And then once you're at a 10, you push your baby out. So they checked me and I was a five. And she's like, oh, okay, you are in active labor. So then she leaves. And the second she left, I like got up and I was like, I got a poop. And my sister's like, that's not a poop.

That's a baby. And so she was like, that is like a huge sign that you're going to be pushing a baby out soon, which is crazy because they had just checked me in. I was a five. So she went, ran back out and got the nurse. And she was like, you need to check her again. And they're like, we just checked her. And she was like, she's saying that she needs to poop.

You need to check her. And she was like kind of having to like argue with them back and forth. So then she checks me. And she's like, oh, you're almost a 10. Like, we got to get you in the delivery room. This literally is like a movie. So they get me on a wheelchair and they're just hauling down the hall to get me into the room. And I am trying not to push.

Like, I can feel this like intense urge to push. Shit and a baby is. Literally. They are both on their way out. Yes. Shit and a baby on their way out. So then we get in there and my doctor hasn't even made it yet. And so the nurse is thinking like, I'm going to have to deliver this baby.

she's like, don't push, telling me not to push. And for me, I'm like, telling someone not to push when they feel that urge is like telling someone not to puke when they're being puking. That's how it felt for me. I'm like, I have to. I don't have a choice. Like this baby's coming out of me. And so they ended up being a midwife there and she came in the room.

And they just grabbed my legs. And my brother's sister worked at the hospital. She ended up being able to come in right as it was happening. She held my leg. Paul held my other leg. And I pushed her out in two seconds. She just flew out of me. And that is crazy. I was like, oh my gosh, this like we looked at each other and we're like, what just happened? And she was perfectly healthy. No NICU time, nothing. And she was a little five pound, seven ounce baby. And I just remember like when I held her for the first time, it was like this instant bond and I was like my this is my life this is my purpose this is I needed you and I'm just

ugly sobbing ugly sobbing and after having our daughter we still were like going to live polygamy through all this like we're still like bad we're still in the religion we're still going to church every Sunday because they go to church every Sunday we were still going to church and like they have like priesthood meetings at the beginning of like in the morning of Sundays that like the men will get together and um so like Paul would go to priesthood meetings and we would go to church and we were still like planning on living polygamy. I think it was like we always kind of struggled with it and didn't necessarily want to live it but we didn't feel like we had a choice. Yeah and I feel like too like if you don't know any other way. It's kind of like sometimes I feel like it probably just seems easier to

stick with it. Yeah. And it was hard for us because we were like, didn't want to disappoint the people that we love because like even though there's so many things with the polygamous religion that I don't agree with, there's so many good people in it. Yeah. And people that we like the community and like the community and like we didn't want to disappoint people that we love and care about. And so it was like this battle that we had and like Paul wanted to be with his brother again. And if we didn't live that way, We were told that he would never see his brother again. And he would always just say, I have to do this for him. I have to do this for my brother.

And so, yeah, we, but after we had our daughter, that's when my shift really changed. And I think his did too. I was like, she can't live that way. Right. I don't want her to be married to some man that has multiple wives and doesn't give a shit about her. like she deserves someone that cares about her like you care about me and like what is that dynamic going to change if we get other wives is you're caring for me going to change and like how are you

supposed to care for these other women and you're going to get them pregnant and have children with them when this was such a special experience for us so that started making me feel sick because I'm like we had that experience of giving birth and him being that. I thought he wasn't going to make it. I was so thankful he was there. And it was the most beautiful spiritual experience I've ever had. And I was like, you're going to go do that with another woman now. That makes me sick. And I would tell him this. And he was like, I know, but like, we have to. Like, I don't know what we're supposed to do. Like, if we want to live with our loved ones when we die and with our daughter, Brookeie, like, if we want her to be with us for eternity, like,

then we have to live this way. So we both would just, like, battle back and forth. It was, like, so hard. So what is the mindset around, like, why do they, in the religion, do they think that you should or need to have multiple wives? Like, what is there, like, a reason behind that? Honestly, I don't really know. Part of it is because it's like you're supposed to multiply and replenish the earth. Okay. So you're having all these children and that's multiplying and replenishing the earth. Also, like, way back in the LDS church in Mormonism, like, the prophets, those prophets all lived polygamy.

Like, it was just something that, like, carried it on through the religion. But like I said, way, like years ago, the LDS church decided we're not living this way anymore, but then people still believe that they should. And both of your families. There is, like, a whole belief system through it. And they see that there's like scriptures that say that you're supposed to live polygamy and there's like all these things. But I don't know. It's like.

Yeah. I don't know the exact reasoning for it. So how long after you gave birth did you guys decide to leave? So it was like I feel like it was years of a mental battle that we went through. I think after we had her, we both could agree. I don't want her living that way. but then it was the battle of then what the freak are we supposed to do because this is the truth like we were taught that we were the chosen ones that this was the one true gospel and religion and

if you are to leave that being one of the chosen ones and being born into it like you will be damned for it and so it was like so hard for us and I think it took us like researching more and like starting to do our own research out of like what they would tell us to research and doing those things to realize like oh okay like it's kind of crazy that we actually grew up this way and like there's only like a few thousand of us but there's like eight billion people in the world and I think there was just like these random things that would start to run through our mind like there's eight billion people in the world but we were the chosen ones and so I honestly like I think I started getting, because I'm such an honest, like, up front person, I started being like,

no, I actually am feeling like this is wrong. Like, I cannot stand to have our daughter live this way. Like, the thought of her living this way makes me sick to my stomach. And he would agree, but he would still, like, he could never tell me like, but I don't believe it. It took him years to, like, finally be like, yeah, I don't believe. leave this and this, I do think this is wrong and I, that we shouldn't be living this way. Yeah. But I think for him, it was like he had that mental battle with losing his brother and not being able to see him again if we didn't live this way. And he's also just like a very big

people pleaser. And like for the people he loves, he just wants them to be happy and he just wants he is truly like the most amazing, truly the most amazing man. And I'm like, we're, the hell did you come from? Yeah, truly. I'm like, where did you come from? How did I get you? I'm so lucky, because like I said, I really think that I would have been with anybody, somebody that was abusing me, somebody, it wouldn't have mattered because I had no self-worth and I just wanted somebody to love me. I just wanted somebody to take me, somebody to love me, somebody to care for me. And so I think that it took, you know, having our daughter. And then as the years went by, I just think it was a slow process of slowly leaving and not going to church. But I will say after we had our daughter, that is the last

time we went to church. Okay. Once we had her, we stopped going to church. But then it was still like in feeling this tug, like, maybe we should start going back to church again. And like people would tell us, like, you need to be going to church. And we felt all this pressure from people being like, you guys need to get your crap together and like start going to church and like get sealed to each other and like you guys have a kid now you know you guys need to be like go through the temple and get sealed and do these things and like we didn't even do like a baby blessing for her which is like you always do a baby blessing and I think that because I didn't get her a baby blessing I ended up struggling with some like religious OCD so I didn't realize until I started having kids that I

always kind of struggled with religious OCD. And that's kind of like, if there was anything that made me uncomfortable or anything like that, I would just have to pray over and over and over and over again. Like even when Paul and I were dating, I was so scared that I would lose him that multiple times a day, I would pray to God and beg him not to take him from me. And if I didn't, then Paul would leave. Yeah. Then Paul would leave if I didn't do that. And it kind of started with things like that. or if like I didn't even realize, but even when I was younger, like, if I was scared of something, I would have to pray over and over and over and over again. And if I didn't, then that thing would happen.

And so then after I had my daughter, I kept feeling like she was going to die. I just kept having this, like, scary fear that she was just going to die. And so I would pray every single night. Please don't take her away from me. and that was so like mentally draining, but it almost became like a routine. Like, please don't take my daughter away from me. But then when I had my second, so then I ended up having another baby. And it's so crazy because like all of my birth stories are actually insane.

So I ended up having him at the hospital too because I was just, I went back and forth again and I was just like, I don't know if I'm brave enough to have a home birth. And so I ended up having him at the hospital. and he came so quick that I ended up giving birth to him in the hospital bathtub and my best friend caught him because the doctor didn't make it and there was no nurse around. So I like had hopped in the bathtub because I was like, oh like, you know, the bathtub broke my water last time. Like I want to try that again and I got in the bathtub and um. Did you even have to push? It's, yeah, but it's like I push, but like my body's kind of forcing me too and I kind of have to like breathe like my baby out. It's like weird.

Like I don't have a choice. Yeah. I don't know. At least it's quick though. Yes. I'm very thankful. Oh my gosh. So I like, yeah, I got in the tub and it just progressed things so fast.

And my friend, my best friend Addie, her mom is actually a midwife. Okay. And so and Addie's like from the same polygamous religion as me. And so she like had been to a lot of birds. births and I was like it was so this was 2021 there was still some like COVID stuff going on and so I could only have every hospital was different and I was thankful because they made my husband just a part of me like he didn't count as like someone that I'm inviting okay so he was just a part of me and then I could invite to other people I know some hospitals it was like you can only have one person or no

people um but so I invited her and I'm so glad that I did because Paul was behind me in the tub pushing on my back helping me through the contractions, not realizing that I'm pushing our baby out. Like, he has no freaking idea. Neither did I, truly. But Addie saw like my water break. She's like, I think your water just broke. I'm going to go get the nurse. So she ran out. And then she hears me like heavy breathing and like I was so loud. And so she ran back in because she knew like she told the nurse and the nurse was like, oh, we'll get towels and we'll get her out. And Addy heard me. And she said, nope, it's happening right now. And she booked it in, walked in, caught him as I was pushing him out.

It's crazy. I would have literally, like, had to have caught my own baby in the tub if she wasn't there. Right. And then, like, the nurse came in and it was crazy because, like, you're not supposed to give birth in the tubs. Yeah. So, like, they were, like, worried. They were, like, freaking out. There were so many people in the room.

It was nuts. But after I had my son, I think, I feel like after every kid, it just, you know, it just, you just leaned us further and further away. But like, after, so before I had my son, I feel like we were like, okay, we're not living this way, whatever, but there was still that guilt and kind of like, oh, like, still struggling a little bit. And I feel like it took like each time I had a kid to be like, now I have a son. And I'm like, well, I don't want him to be a pligmus.

Like I want to raise him to like be a good. And not the like all the pligmas are terrible men because I'm not saying that. but like I want to raise him to like care for care for his person and be a good man and so after I had him though like I feel like after I had my daughter I was like in pure bliss I had a little bit of anxiety but it was fine I actually got on some like anxiety meds everything was great and but then when I had my son I feel like right after I gave birth, I instantly had some postpartum depression. Like the hormone shift did something. And I didn't feel as bonded because of the depression.

And that was so hard on me mentally because I was like, am I just like, I've been so scared that I'm not going to love a second kid as much as my first. And I'm like, I know that's not what it is. But like, why am I not feeling that same? Like, oh, the instant he's on my chest, that bond. And later it was, I realized. is because like that postpartum depression kicked in right after I gave birth. And it was really hard to like work through. And like Paul and like another thing too is like mental health,

depression, anxiety, that is so heavily swept under the rug and not talked about in the religion that we grew up in. And so it was kind of like just deal with it. Like you don't get help. You don't talk about it. And so I was like going through that. And. And so I was like going through that. like Paul has never dealt with depression or anxiety. He's like one of those lucky people that just like lives blissfully. Yeah. Doesn't have like, he doesn't know what anxiety feels like. And so it was just like I felt like I could go to him for things, but it was like almost like who you're also not even going to understand. Like you don't know what it's like to give birth. You don't know what it's like to like go through postpartum. But I remember one night like my baby was super colicky too, which I think

really surfaced my depression. And one night he was just screaming and crying and Paul was trying to help me with him because I couldn't get him to stop crying. And I just like fell to the ground and then anxiety attack. And I just was sobbing and sobbing and he just held me. And he was like, I'm so sorry. Like he comforted me. And after that, that's when I finally admitted and said to somebody like, I'm struggling and I'm not okay. But even he was like, like, didn't know what to do. Yeah. What do you do when someone's not okay, like when they're struggling?

Right. And he didn't know what to do. So he just kept trying to help me more and kept taking the baby more, but also I was breastfeeding. And so it was like, what can he really do? Like, I would try to pump so he could give him a bottle, but pumping is a chore. So I'm like, I'll just latch him on. Like pumping is annoying.

And so he tried his best to just like help me as much as he could. But finally, eventually, eventually, I ended up opening up to my sister and a couple of my sisters. And then my sister, I actually had a sister living with me because I feel like as, as all of us siblings are older, we would kind of take the younger siblings under our wing and kind of like help take care of them. So I told this sister, my sister, Nikki, I was like, I am struggling. And she was like, we're calling your doctor tomorrow.

And so she pretended to be me because I was too anxious to. even call my doctor and she's like, hi, this is Ashley. I'm struggling with my postpartum and I need medication or whatever. And so, because I had been on the medication before, they like prescribed it to me right away. But then they still wanted to meet up with me. But they were able to prescribe it to me right away and I was able to pick it up. But I don't know if I like would have. It's so crazy because like after losing my brother, mental health has become a huge part of my story. And so I was like, I remember in the hospital, they were like, if you're struggling, like, let, like, they had me fill out this whole form. And they're like, if you're struggling mentally, like, reach out. And I was like,

I got this in the bag. Like, yeah. I know how I know this. I like lost my brother to suicide. Like, not saying that to them, but obviously thinking this in my head, like, I have this in the bag. Yeah. And then when I was struggling, I couldn't reach out. And it's like, it's so hard when you're in that place mentally to reach out. Well, there are also such different things that I'm sure that in your mind you're like, I went through something horrible having a baby's good. So why would I? This is supposed to be good. I'm not supposed to be struggling. This is like a happy time of my life. But it goes to show. Yeah. So you like brush yourself off. And so when I got on that medication,

it really helped with like intrusive thoughts I was having because I would have like these dark intrusive thoughts and it helped push those away. And I feel like things got a little bit better. But then I started getting chronic migraines. So I started having migraines. I would have a migraine like 15 to 20 times in a month. And so I basically was just like a living walking migraine. And like I knew it had to do with my hormones. Like something was off. And that was so hard to go through. and that went on for about nine months and it got better. But like, I compare migraines to mental illness in the way that like, if you've never had a migraine or you don't deal with that pain,

like people kind of just like brush it off and they can't see that you're struggling. Because like when I had my migraines, it was like, I have to keep being a mom and living my life. So I would just like be like taking like I would take acetyrin and drink a soda. And that's like what would help. But I would still be in pain. but I'm really good at just like brushing it off and acting like I'm okay. So I would just act like I'm okay.

Same thing with mental illness. Like you act like you're okay and you're not. And so that was like, I just feel like going through those things, though, I just feel like every hard thing that I go through really makes me a more compassionate, understanding person. And you always think it won't happen to you until it does. So like stay humble. Like you never know what life is going to throw at you.

And it's just like, I think it's so easy for people to just, like, judge and be like, I would do this or I would do that or I would never do that. And it's like, you don't know until you're going through the thing that you're going through what it will be like. So just like be kind to people. But like after, so after all this is going on, me and my sisters actually ended up starting a clothing boutique and it was called Dear Sister Boutique and had Dear Sister with a semicolon.

And the semicolon, the reason why we had that there is, have you ever heard of the semicolon project? Or like project semicolon? So like a semicolon is placed in a sentence when the sentence could have ended, but it kept going on. And like you are the sentence and the story is your life. And I think that that's so empowering and so cool because like I have been at those little places like my brother was. And I could have ended my life like he did. But I didn't. and I'm so thankful that I didn't because my life now is so completely different than my life was when I was

that young and going through those hard things. So like life gets better and it can feel like there's no lie at the end of the dark tunnel that you're in, but it gets better. And so we had a clothing boutique for a few years and it was a really big part of our healing journey. Like we don't do it anymore, but it was a huge part of our healing journey. And we actually would do it. fundraisers for families that would lose their loved ones to suicide. And the first fundraiser that we did, and this is where I say, like, I've had some weird, like, spiritual experiences with my brother that people would say is crazy. But I'm like, explain this to me. Right. Explain how this happened. So, like, when we were having our boutique, I remember there was one day I was like

rocking my daughter to sleep for a nap. And I thought she was asleep. And I thought she was asleep. And And all of a sudden she like shot up and she like looks in the corner of the room and she's just giggling. And I felt this like love for my brother. I don't know how to explain it. I felt like he was with me. And after that happened, I like ended up calling my sister and I was like, I feel like we need to be like doing a fundraiser or something with our boutique. Like there's so much good that we could do with this. And I feel like we need to do a fundraiser or something that I don't know what for.

And she was like, maybe like something with suicide awareness or something. And I was like, yeah. And then a few days later, I see all over social media that this boy had taken his life. And this was like, I want to say, 2019. So it had been a few years since my brother passed. It was like 2018, 2019. My daughter, I think, was a year old. So I think it was 2019.

So it had been a few years since my brother, Amman had passed. and then this boy, a few towns away from us, had taken his life. And the second I saw, I was like, we need to do a fundraiser for their family. We need to reach out and see if they will let us do a fundraiser. And so we reached out and his mom said yes. And so that was like our first fundraiser that we did. So we, like in the future, we ended up making like special shirts for the family. But we just sold our clothes.

and then any profit that we made, we just gave to the family. And it's so crazy because that boy ended up taking his life in February 2. I think it was like February 5th or something. I don't know the exact date. And so it was the same month as my brother. And then after the fundraiser was over, I came down to like visit my brother's grave at his death anniversary. And when I came down, we're like, this is the perfect time to bring her the check.

So it ended up being on my brother's death anniversary that we ended up bringing her the check. And I think that was super healing for us because it was like, it's just like a way to honor our brother. And when we got there, we started like explaining to her what we do and who our brother was. And she was like, wait, Am and Matthews, my son was friends with him. And then we moved a few years. Like we moved a few years. But they went to middle school together and they were friends.

And all of us just got chill. and started sobbing because we were like, no freaking way. And so that was like kind of like a crazy cool experience that we had. And so since losing my brother, I have just like tried to do things in like a healing way. And like things that have helped me heal is like doing acts of kindness for people. And so what actually started all of the, this is like so when I I'm just going to start I'm like how do I begin this so one year for my birthday I was like birthdays kind of suck like is you get older birthday suck and I had seen some woman posts like a blog saying that for like her 30th birthday she did 30 acts of kindness and so I was like

I kind of want to do that for my birthday like I want to do um I think I was turning 21 and I was like I want to do 20 or yeah 21. I was turning 21. I was like, I want to do 21 random acts of kindness and give like gifts to random people like maybe people I know and strangers and I did that. And I was like, that was the best birthday I've ever had. Like giving to other people like felt amazing to me. And then my brother's birthday came up because his birthday is in June and my birthday is in April. And I was like, that, like, I wonder if I like started doing that for his birthday. Like if that would be healing to start doing that for his birthday. So then the first year I did, like, he was turning, like, I don't even know what age,

and I did, like, that many acts of kindness for people. And then I kind of started turning it into, like, his favorite color was blue. And so I would do acts of blue. And so on, like, the little note of gifts that I would give to people, it would be, like, in a blue bag with, like, blue tissue paper. And the note would say, in case you're feeling blue today, Um, here's this random act of kindness and I hope that you pass it on. And it would just be like things that are blue or just like other random things in it. And so now I do that in honor of my brother.

I'll do random acts of blue and I'll do it on his death anniversary and I'll do it on his birthday and just randomly throughout the year. And that is just something that has been so healing for me. And like I involve my kids in it and my kids love it. And I, I am just like so glad that I get to like teach my kids about mental health awareness and like healthy ways to cope and like in the hard things. Like when I lost my brother, like I would literally just turn on songs that would make me think of him and cry. And like I do that to this day. Like if there's something that I'm struggling with or something hard that I go through, I will like purposely make myself listen to songs that will make me like. feel sad about the situation and I'll just cry. And it's been that helps me so much. Because you can get it

out. Because like you have to feel to heal. And if you're repressing all these feelings, like you're never going to work through it. And so as hard as it is and I think people are like, just don't cry and just be strong. But it's like, I think it's very strong to cry too and it's very vulnerable to cry because like I think that's a huge thing that everybody around the world, they're just like, oh, I'm embarrassed. Like, sorry I'm crying. And like, I used to apologize for crying. And like, even when I was just telling you the story of my brother passing, like,

normally I would have apologized. Like, sorry, I'm kind of crying. And like, I don't apologize for it anymore because it's vulnerable and it's almost stronger to cry because it like takes a lot of like strength to cry. And I think sometimes it's easier for people to hold it in. But in the end, like, you're not healing because you're not failing. And I truly believe that with all my heart that you have to feel to heal. I agree.

Yeah. It's very true. So you had your son. And then how far after did you have your third kid? Okay. So all of my kids are like exactly like three months and a month apart basically. Okay. They just ended up being like the exact same age apart.

So my daughter, my oldest, Brookeie turns seven in a couple of weeks. She's just a week apart for my husband's birthday. And then my second oldest cash, he turns four in July. Okay. And then I had my third in September. Girl or boy? Boy. So I have girl, boy, boy.

And my third is eight months old now. And I actually ended up having a home birth with him. Really? So after I had like my two hospital ones, well, like after my second birth and my best friend ended up catching him, that's twice now that my doctor didn't make it to my birth. Yeah, you're like, I can do this. I was like, why am I not having a home birth? Like, what am I doing? And like Paul's aunt is like a super awesome midwife.

And I was like, I feel comfortable with her. Like I really feel comfortable with her. I feel like she knows what she's doing. And so I was like, I'm just going to like. ask her if I can have a home birth and if she'll be my midwife. And so I ended up having a home birth with my third. I didn't decide until halfway through because I was still kind of being a chicken and I was trying to decide. And I was like, Ashley, your best friend caught your baby last time. You could probably have a baby. I might as well try. I might accidentally have birth in the car.

I'm like, I would rather have a home birth than give birth in the car. Yeah. So I ended up having my home birth and it was so cool. Like such a cool experience. Everything went amazing. Of course, my labor went super quick again. That's amazing. Like, this is like, you'll probably appreciate this because it has to do with my dog. Uh-huh. So, like, I'm just, I guess, going to tell all my birth story times. But so with this, so with all my babies, I get a lot of pre-labor.

And it's kind of like preparing you for labor, but you're not in labor and you'll have contractions and cramping and all these things. And I do that with all my births. And so with him, I kept getting some pre-labor. and I was like, oh, okay, this usually happens for a week or two before I have my baby, but it like dilates me, slowly dilates me. And I think that's why I have quick births too because I slowly get dilated to like a four or a five. And then I'm finally inactive labor and I just go.

But it was so weird the days leading up to giving birth to him, though, because there was like a full moon. And every night at one in the morning, my dog would start bar. barking in her kennel. And I'm like, what is she doing? Yeah. Like she loves to sleep in there. She never like barks in the night. Like she goes through the whole night. And so I would like get up and I would take her potty. And all of a sudden I would feel like, oh, I'm having some contractions. And then I'd be like, is labor starting? And she would run out and just start howling at the moon. And she's not even a big barker. Yeah. And she would just howl at the moon. I'm like, are you a freaking wolf? Like what is going on. Yeah, that's crazy. But it's like so in the middle of the night and I'm tired and I'm just like,

what the crap. Delirious. Yeah. So then I like go to bed because my contractions stopped. I felt a couple of them. They stopped. And then the next night, the same thing happened. Around one in the morning, she starts getting weird in her kennel again. And so I let her out and she's howling at the moon. And I'm crazy having contractions. I'm like, what the hell is going on? Yeah. And that happened for like three nights where this same exact thing happened. And so I kept feeling, silly, silly doggy. Speaking of dogs, are you like getting involved in my conversation? Yeah, she's like, I'm going to come over now. She's like, oh, how let the move? Yeah. That is crazy. But so then I kept thinking like, I'm going to go in labor in the middle of the night. I just know what's going to happen. And that's what ended up happening.

And guess what time it was? One in the freaking morning. How many days after? It had been like three or four days. I can't remember the exact days. It was like a few days. And my dog doing this. And it was like a special moon. I can't remember what moon it was.

You know, I have those random moons? It was so bright outside. It like didn't seem like night. It was so bright out there. That is crazy. And it was like that for days in a row. It was so weird. So your dog could sense it.

I need to like look back in Google like what moon happened on this date. But it was some kind of special moon. And it was honestly so weird. That's crazy. I ended up going into labor at one in the morning. And I was like, okay, is this real? And so they were like 10 minutes apart, which is kind of far apart. And so I was like, maybe it's not real and it's still pre-labor. So I like got up. And I was like, I'm just going to get up and see if they pick up. And I got up and they started picking up. And so I was like, okay, still kind of in denial. Don't want to wake Paul up. But like, I like need his help through the contractions because he'll like push on my back. And it like takes like, like, like almost all the pain away. Like it helps so much with the way that he like would pressure on my back and then me breathing through him.

So I waited a little bit. It was probably almost an hour. And like I feel like time flies when you're in labor. I'm just like, where did the time go? An hour or so goes by. And finally I'm like, no, these are really strong and I need his help. Like this is getting hard to do this by myself. And so I ended up waking him up.

And I was like, I need your help through these contractions. They're so strong. and so he starts helping me through them and they were about six minutes apart, which still wasn't super close. Like with my other babies when they felt this strong. They were like two minutes apart when they felt this strong. But like these contractions were also longer. Like they were lasting longer than my other two babies.

Like my other babies would last like 60 seconds and then they would stop. And then every two minutes it was 60 seconds. These were like a minute and a half, like 90 seconds long. And so they were a lot longer. and super strong, but more spread out. It was different than my other two births. So I was like, what is going on? Like, and I felt so dumb.

Like I didn't want to, like, tell my midwife to come over and then it like, stop. Which she would not have cared. It's literally their job. But you just feel like dumb. I don't know. And so after like Paul had to start helping me, though, I was like, okay, I have to call my midwife. And so I called her and she instantly picked up. And she was like, okay, I'll head over.

and it took her about 20 minutes to get to me. I think she lives 10 to 15 minutes away from me. So she really got her stuff, hopped in, and came over. And she knew that I had had fast births in the past. So she was trying to like plan that. And I know she was like on edge because she knew that it was coming close. Yeah. And so she was like just waiting and anticipating it.

And I invited my best friend again that had delivered my baby. But I had to call her. And so like, I didn't want to call her and it stopped too because it's in the middle of the night and she has a baby herself. So I was like, I don't want to be like interrupting her if it's not real. And then all of a sudden I started getting super emotional. And I was like, I need Addie. I need my best friend. So I ended up calling her. She answered. I'm crying. I'm like, I think I'm in labor. There are a few minutes apart. And she's like, okay, I'll head over. And I did like all my laboring in my living room, which I didn't expect. Yeah. but we were trying to blow up, forgot to say, I was trying to labor in a birthing pool because I love the tub, right? I was trying to labor in a birthing pool. So Paul and I were trying to set it up

and he had to keep helping me every few minutes through each contraction. So it was taking us longer to set it up than we thought. And we were just going to set it up in the living room and then bring it into my room. But I was just leaning on the couch the whole time. And I liked that. So it was fine because I was just, I would like get up. Because for a second, it was just me and him, so I would, like, get up and help him. Yeah. And then I would start having a contraction, and then I would have to, like, lean back on the couch, breathe through it.

He's pushing on my back. And they were so incredibly strong. I can't even tell you, like, so much stronger than my other contractions were, and they were so much longer, but just more spread out. Yeah. And I was like, holy shit. This is insane. I started feeling like, I don't know if I can do this.

And I realized any time that I would feel that way. like I don't know if I can do this. I would start getting emotional. It was because I was in transition. And transition is like when you're going to be pushing your baby out soon. Okay. And so at any time that I start feeling like that, that's because I'll be pushing my baby out soon. But I'm not thinking that when it's going on.

I'm just like, oh my gosh, what am I doing? I don't know if I can do this. And then all of a sudden my midwife had come and she had helped me through a contraction too. And she was just like spreading these positive affirmations. over me and she's like, you're doing a good job, good job, Ashley. And that like took the pain away. It was so weird. I have never had somebody just like, she has like the most calming, soothing voice. And she's just saying all these affirmations. And it was so soothing. It took the pain away for my whole contraction. I was like, this is crazy. And then she was like, I was like, oh, I like that.

After the contraction was done, I'm like leaning on the couch. I keep doing that. I look up to her. I'm like, oh, I like that. And she was like, okay, I'll keep. doing that, but she didn't get to keep doing that because my next contraction, she kept going in and out because she was setting stuff up on my dresser in my room of like all the stuff she would need and all of a sudden she heard me doing like pushing sounds. So she comes out and she's like, are you feeling pushy? That sounded like a little more pushing sounds. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing. And then I was like, Paul, we got to fill up that pool. And she was like, there is no time. There's no time for that pool. And I'm like looking at her like, there's no way I'm

I'm going to be pushing this baby out already. There's no way. And so we then she was like, do you want to give birth here or are you wanting to go somewhere else? And I'm just in the living room. And at that point, Paul had called my mother-in-law and to come get our kids. And so she was heading over. And I just remember thinking in my head, like she's going to be walking in as I'm pushing out a baby in the living room. My kids started kind of waking up because they could tell something was going on, even though it was the middle of the night. And so I was like, I want to go in my room. Yeah. And I'm so glad we did that because I had set up a tripod because with my other babies, I didn't have like a video of me giving birth. And I was like, I want a video so bad of me giving birth. And so I remember seeing the tripod and I was like, I said something like, oh, my tripod. And Paul knew how important it was for me. So he like set up my phone and hit record. And two, two, three minutes after he hit record, babies out. Babies out. And so my friend didn't even end up making it. And so my friend didn't even end up making it. And. And so he, he, he did. And he did record. And he did. And he did. And so. And so. And so. And so, he. And so and my mother-in-law ended up walking in and my kids are up at this point.

She's hanging out with them in the living room as I'm giving birth to my baby. And this whole time I forgot to say, I didn't find out the gender till birth. Okay. So Paul and I always said, like, if we had a boy and a girl, that we wouldn't find out the gender until birth. And so the whole pregnancy, I thought I was having a girl. Yeah. I feel like that's how it is. Like, you know, you think it's true.

And I feel like I'm a very intuitive. person, but not when it comes to what the baby is inside my belly. So when I pushed him out, I was like standing. I would literally push him out standing on the edge of my bed. And he came out and my midwife, like he had a really short cord. But she's like, Dad, what is it? You know, and then Paul was like, it's a boy. And I was like, it's a boy!

And I'm like, ah, like hands over my mouth. I was like shocked. It was like the coolest moment ever, like finding out his gender, waiting the whole pregnancy until finding out his gender was so cool and so rewarding. And I think that was like during my labor, I was like, I want to know what this baby is. It's exciting. It kept me going. But yeah, my labor ended up being like three hours. So it was so quick.

And about two minutes after I pushed him out, though, my best, he walked in. And she's like, Ashley, oh my gosh, you're amazing. And I was like, it's a boy. Uh-huh. And it's so cool because you can like see all that in the video. And my mother-in-law and my daughter heard me scream out, it's a boy. And my daughter wanted a sister so bad. So, but she, she adjusted in two seconds.

Yeah. She's like, that's the cutest baby ever. And she's the cutest big sister. But I was worried because she wanted a sister so bad. Yeah. And it all worked out fine. She adapted. Yeah.

Do you want any more kids? Are you done? I don't know. Okay. I could be done. But you're not, you're open to it. I don't feel that done feeling, but I don't know if I ever will. Okay.

And like, we grew up with such big families. Yeah. That it's like how, like, it's like weird for me to think of my sister or my daughter not having a sister. Like, my sons get a brother now, but like she doesn't get a sister. But like, I can't determine the gender. And I also will not have more than four kids. I think that's like where I'll draw the line.

Yeah. Because I also know what it's like to have too many kids. and then like they're neglected because you can't like give them all your love and attention and I never want that to be the case with my kids because I you know what it feels like I've just broken so many cycles with my kids and I'm just going to continue to do that and I took the words out of my mouth because that was breaking so many cycles yeah and that's I think too like sometimes it's okay like I think it's amazing what you said of like you still have so much compassion for your mom yeah but at the same time it's okay to

to reflect and realize like, okay, but at the same time, I'm doing things differently. Yeah. You know, and that's a good thing. I can say like, oh, things shouldn't have happened the way that they should have. And I got all this trauma. Like, seriously, like, I could talk to you for hours. Like, we haven't even scratched the surface. Like, there's so many things that I've gone through.

And it's like I could hold resentment towards her, but I don't because. And sometimes I feel like that resentment can creep in because I'm like, as a mother, I'm like, how good you? Like being a mother and loving my kids so much and I'm like, she's still not like close to me and she's not active in my life and my kids don't know her. At all. They like they know her but they don't. Like they, I see my mom like once or twice a year. Okay.

And now being a mother now I'm like it's kind of both. Like if I have to be putting in the effort and if I don't, there's nothing. And I think I finally got to the point where I was like. like, I'm not going to be the one only putting an effort. So I stopped. And then there was like nothing. There was like crickets. So what about your dad?

My dad, I, I feel like I was really close to him when I was younger. But like even then, like I haven't talked to him in a long time. Like we just don't have a close relationship. And it's just like so crazy because when I became a mother, I think it surfaced a lot of trauma that I went through. Like, whoa, this wasn't okay. Well, this wasn't okay. Once I felt that love for my child, I was like, these things are not okay. And so then that was like healing and things that I had to work through. And yeah, I eventually did end up going to therapy. It took a long time of my life. But I went to therapy for a while. And I feel like it helped. But at the same time, I feel like I have like just done, I don't know. Some people need like someone to talk to and like whatever validate or give like healthy coping mechanisms. And I feel like I had. so many years where I just like, I'm going to figure this out myself. What are healthy coping mechanisms?

How can I make it through this? And like I, and that's probably why I'm an oversharer. Like, I'll tell people anything. And like that's like on my TikTok. Like I'll do story times and like I'll do get ready with me story times. And I feel like it's almost like a diary for me. Or like, I don't know. It's like healing for me to just like talk about my stories and do stuff like that. And so like I just feel like there's things like honoring my brother and doing acts of kindness and I like eat healthy and I work out and I like mostly work out for my mental health. And it's like I do these things not just for myself now but for my kids because they deserve a mentally and emotionally available mother and they deserve the best version of me. And it takes a lot of healing and cycles that I go,

okay, I'm not going to carry these cycles with me and I'm going to change this and I'm going to change that and I don't think this is okay or that's okay. And I just already love the relationship that I have with my kids. And I just pray that it continues to be so amazing because even my daughter, like, she just talks to me about everything. And I just, I feel like it's been so healing for me to have kids. And even to have my daughter and like being the mother that I never had, basically is kind of like, I hate saying that because I don't want to come across like, rude and like you know my mom might listen to this podcast you know and like maybe it would be good for her and like my mom has been going to therapy herself and she's been realizing like things that she went through

that wasn't okay and like she's kind of on a journey now where I feel like if she continued to go to therapy like maybe we could have a closer relationship and like I think that maybe eventually we could and like maybe her and I would have to go to therapy together too to kind of sort through it but like and the thing is too I don't know it. I don't know it. would take a lot of therapy. Your experience versus your mom's experience is so different also. You know, like even with her being with your dad and you being with your husband. And, you know, they were probably, they too were closer to the times when things were different. You know, whereas like now with social media and you know so much more and, you know, there's so much more,

I think, openness and knowledge around so many different things. So true, though. Yeah. So it's like such a different experience that you guys had. So I feel like too, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying like giving your children the mother you didn't have. And it's not a mean comment. It's just different, you know? And it's something where, you know, you learn these things and you learn, you take good and you take bad and you kind of realize, all right, I'm going to use this.

I'm going to not use this, you know, and things like that. But I think that it's amazing, though, that your mom is now on her own journey. Yeah, I think it is too. And I feel like if she continues to do this, like she could really, like, grow and change. And I think she's still just so unaware of so much stuff. And, like, that's okay. Maybe eventually she'll get there. But it's, like, painful to, like, become aware of things, you know?

And that's, like, stuff that she'll have to work through. And it's years, I feel like up unraveling what you know. It'll be years. Because, like, even for me and my husband, like, leaving the polygamous religion cult that we grew up in, that was so hard for us and we never even went through their temple and like got sealed because people that go through their temple and get sealed that's a whole other process of leaving that is so much harder to leave when you go through that process because like you're like if you they believe that if you leave after that point like you're damned like you are going to hell

and it's like even with my husband and I it was like for the longest time I think people kept holding on to hope because we hadn't gone through their temple yet. Like, well, maybe eventually they will. Come back. And I think when I got my first tattoo, that kind of still the deal of losing hope of us being in there because you cannot have tattoos and go through their temple. So are both of your families still in the religion? Um, yeah, both of our families are somewhat, but like, even my parents are kind of like, I don't want to speak for them, but like they're a lot older now, but they're kind of like... Not what they were with it.

Not what they were with it. Okay. It kind of looks like they might be leaving. Well, especially too with your mom going to therapy, because that's... That's exactly what happened. She went to therapy and help open her eyes to a lot of things and a lot of things that weren't okay. And so she's working through that, you know, and I commend her on that for finally going

to therapy because not only is therapy, I feel like a taboo topic in general, but growing up in polygamy like that like you don't struggle with your mental health it gets brushed under the road you don't go to therapy if you go to therapy you're crazy right and so it's like the fact that she's even putting in that effort she's choosing her mental health yeah because you know I've struggled and I've definitely had my resentment but I can get down with anybody that's trying and trying to get better and I think that's what she's doing so I commend her for that truly and then how did your boyfriend's family react when you guys left the religion um I think think it was just such a slow process. It wasn't like, we're leaving. And it was like, they're still

actively in our lives. And also, I feel like I never got to the point. I kind of was saying, like, how his family was like, we won't let you be with her. And like, they did not want me to be a part of the family. Not everybody, but some of them, like some key people. I don't want to say names, but some key people were like, this is not happening and they were not welcoming. It's completely switched now. And they're very welcoming and loving. And like, I feel like people change and they grow and they evolve. And so I'm close with his family now and I would say maybe even closer with his family than I am mine. Yeah. Because I see them way more than I see my family. Right. So I'm very thankful for them and that we have that close relationship because I never would have

expected how like, you know, I would never have expected to get close with them just with everything. Yeah. And I was going to say to something that I believe is that, you know, no matter how you're raised or what you're raised into or what belief, I do think that people are born with whatever you want to call it, whether it's like your own energy or your own personality, where sometimes I think naturally you're just more aware, you're more open and you're more called to break a cycle, whereas sometimes, you know, maybe you're...

And you know, the interesting thing is I feel like you could have easily gone that path, like how you were saying, like if you would have ended up with, maybe somebody that wasn't as good as your husband. Like there could have been a chance where you just, like, especially if they were like, I probably would have been a polygamous. Yeah. Like if they were too, like I think if they were super like demanding or set in their ways, you might have, especially since you.

I would have just gone along. Yeah. Especially. Like that's not necessarily my personality. No. I feel like I. But you were in a very like low place that I feel like like you said if you didn't have somebody. I wanted somebody to love me.

I didn't care who it was. have been a man with multiple wives. I literally didn't care. I just wanted somebody to love me and I had no self-worth. It makes me so sad because having a daughter and having sons, I never want them to feel that way. So I'm literally doing like everything I can to like help them. Just have like self-worth and confidence because I think that's so important. And I just. But you get it though because you've had felt both. I get it. And like that's like I feel like I could say like how could I go through all these things and like I've gone through so much of my life but I just take it as I have learned so much in my life has made me a better person a more compassionate person and I get to

like bring that to my children and hopefully help them be better more compassionate people and be in tune with their mental well-being and be confident and be loving caring people and like even my daughter the other day like she's already dealing with like sometimes kids will say mean things to her and she's in her gymnastics class and like A girl hates her and is telling all the girls, I hate her, I hate Brokey. And she was sad about it. And I was like, Brooke, do you want to know why she hates you? And she's like, because she's jealous?

And I was like, yeah, she probably is jealous or intimidated. And I was like, you know what you should do? Just keep being kind to her. Yeah, kill her with kindness. Keep being kind to her and keep being you. You know your worth. You're amazing. You don't need somebody else to tell.

you if you're good enough or not because you are good enough just as you are. And like, I've had so many conversations with her. And I know I'll have them with my boys when they're older. And I just, it's so healing for me as a mother. It like heals my inner child being a mother because I'm able to just like when I'm saying those things to her, it's almost as if I'm talking to myself. And I'm like, I don't know. It's just so healing. It's so healing to be able to be that mother for her and do the things. I don't know. I never realized how healing being a mother would be and how it would just feel like my whole purpose in this world, you know, because I was kind of taught that way. Like I didn't even plan to go to college or anything, right? Because you're taught,

like, you're going to just like have all these kids and you'll be a stay-at-home mom. And I actually just kind of want to be that. Anyways, I've realized, like, it's not just because I grew up that way. Like, I don't want to go work. I want to be home with my babies. And I want to to be there raising them. And if you want to be a working mom, that's awesome. And like, I just, that's just what I want. Yeah. It's just what I love.

I just love being home with my kids. Yeah. I love that. And I think, too, it goes to show your whole story. It's like, yeah, of course, hearing everything. It's like your, it's jaw dropping. You're like, that's crazy. Yeah.

But at the same time, it does go to show that, and I feel like, in general, all the stories that I hear, it shows how different people can live and be raised. but you can still go through such similar experiences and traumas and loss. And I feel like the important, it shows the importance of like staying true to yourself. And like, I feel like too, just realizing your self-worth and getting yourself the help that you need and saying that it's okay not to be okay. Yeah. It's okay to not be okay.

Yeah, I feel like so many people are ashamed of that or they feel like they're so stuck in it. And I think like you said too, when you're down there and you're low, like you don't feel like anybody wants to listen or can help. Yeah. And you just feel dumb. No matter if you have the best people in the world that you feel like you can go to, sometimes it's really hard when you're in that place. And sometimes you just need that reminder to like that it's okay.

And like when I share my brother's story, like I've shared out on social media before and it's gone viral multiple times. And like when I share like how he died in that story, like, there's so many people that have said like I'm saving this video for later for when I feel suicidal again or when I want to take my life because sometimes just knowing like there is somebody that cares like my brother took his life 10 years ago and it still highly impacts my life to this day. I still cry because I miss him and I do everything I can to feel close to him and like that's why I do those random acts of kindness and I try to inspire others to do the same like and share

wearing like the acts of blue, like I've had other people say, well, I want to do this for my brother that I lost or my mom or my dad that I lost. And I'm like, please do it because it's so healing to do those acts of kindness for people. And I think it's so important to find healthy ways to grieve because there's all those stages of grief that you go through like anger and blame and guilt and sadness. And then you start to like fill a little bit of weight lift off of you. But like, I believe that grief is where love is and you will always love and miss that person. And it's important to remember them and to not just push it off and to fill it. And you always know that like they'll always be on your mind and that's okay.

And just do things that help you remember them and be a good person, honor them. Yeah. And I think too, even you sharing the story about your brother could help parents, you know, like just to. have them be aware that like someone can be struggling and you might not see it or just to check in and unfortunately that doesn't always make a difference but you don't know it could you know and I think it just brings a different um awareness to it and I think you know even though suicide unfortunately happens often and is common I think that it's still a taboo subject I think people are still uncomfortable to talk about it well I think the leading cause to suicide is not talking about it because

even just saying it out loud to somebody, if you are feeling suicidal, can switch something in your brain. And maybe telling somebody, they'll go, no, like, I, please don't do that. Like, I need you here. Let me help you. Whatever the case may be, saying it out loud, you need to get that off your chest. You cannot hold that in. Those thoughts are so heavy. And I want to say, like, even though it's common to have those thoughts, it's not normal.

And, like, it's okay to get help when you have those thoughts. And it's okay to tell somebody that you trust. If you don't trust anybody, there's the hotline, 988, text them, call them, tell them that you're having these thoughts. Like, do not hold those thoughts in because I truly believe that that's the leading cause of suicide is not talking about it. And I think, too, you know, you bringing up the point of being in a belief or a religion that tells you that because your brother took his own life, that he's going to hell.

Yeah. Basically, I think that I can see for many people, how. that would keep you in a place of being stuck and not being able to move forward. And, you know, moving forward doesn't mean forgetting. It just means being able to go on with your life and find happiness. And find happiness. Yeah. And how unfair is it? How am I supposed to find happiness if my brother is in hell? Right. Like, that's what I kept going through. Like, how am I supposed to find happiness if my brother is in hell? Which I truly don't believe he is. So. No. I don't, I don't like that. I don't like it either. It's true.

Yeah. I just, I don't, I never, that's something I don't understand. Yeah. Like, and the thing is, is like if even in some fucked up way, if that was true, why is it that, like, I just feel like we're so advanced now. I know. That it's like, why, why is it that people even want to think that way? It's such a negative thought. I know. It's so negative. But it's like, I don't know. I hate it. There's just like those random things obviously growing up in that. It's just like, oh, that's so instill in people. fear-based or that's so like negative and it was like it was all those things that we'd kind of like well I don't agree with that that's fear-based that's negative yeah and I think that unfortunately

religion any religion makes people feel safe in a way I think it does create it creates comfort and you can have that community but at the same time you know it's so proven and obvious that you know, negativity, negative thoughts, negative anything, attracts negativity back to you. So in any way, why would, in my mind, I just can't wrap my head around, like, completely removing beliefs and religion out of it. Like, why would you even want to live with those thoughts? Especially when it comes to someone you knew or loved. Those thoughts are so heavy. And once you go through that, you're like, wait, is this really what I believe? Right. I've just been told this, but do I actually believe he's in hell? And how, it's just like, how could you move forward with

that thought. Like, it's nearly impossible. It's like, it's leaving yourself stuck in a place. I'm like, he's in hell and it's my fault. I deserve to go to hell too. Right. And also it's like, why would you want to go anywhere good if someone you loved is not there? That's exactly how it fell. Yeah. And I think too, like in general, I think people need to be more open to discussing things like that as well. Yeah. Because, in my opinion, just because you were raised a certain way and taught something, that doesn't mean you have to follow through way. Yeah. You're able to, we are all individual people. You can live however the crap you want. Yes. And I think that the more people that are open and just kind, the better the world would be. Yeah. And the answer isn't always religion. Yeah. I think the answer is just being a good person

and being the best version of yourself that you can be and getting yourself the mental help and talking and being open and honest. And, you know, obviously your story has so many different aspects to it. Yeah. You know, and I think that's so. So many people can find help and relate to it in so many different ways. And like you said, like, I'm sure there's so many parts that, you know, you don't even scrape the service of. I mean, that's why I like to share my life online because I'm like. There's so many, like, books that you could go into.

Yeah. I have so many little stories and aspects of my life that I feel like could help somebody. And after losing my brother, like, that's a way of honoring him too is like helping people. And I truly believe that that's my purpose on this earth is to help people and to help my kids. be good humans and I don't know, I just love it. It gives me a purpose in life and you can either let like the things that you go through make you or break you and you can grow from them and it might be years of a process. Yeah.

And it might be so incredibly painful, but like you deserve to heal. If you have kids, your kids deserve to heal. They deserve the best version of you. So put in the work and be the best version that you can be. Don't guilt yourself. Don't feel bad if you're not being the best version of yourself. because you can always, it is never too late, you can always be better and you can always work on yourself. And I'm not perfect. I'm still not a perfect mom and I'm always working on

myself. But I think awareness is key. Yeah. And I'm always apologizing to my kids. And I think that's a huge thing. Like I was never apologized to for things. And I'm always apologizing to my kids and letting them know if I yell at them or I did this or that. Like it is not your fault. That is mine. And it's just. Which is like your brother, what your brother used to do with you. Yes, I know. That's cute. That's cute. I like that.

Yeah. But no, I think that that's so important. That's really, really important. I don't think enough people are aware of that. But, you know, the best thing you can do for others is be the best version of yourself. Yeah. I agree. And you will feel better if you get the help.

Like, I know it's comfortable when you're in that dark place or you're struggling to just stay where you're at. When you come out of it, you're like, man. This is what I was missing out on. I was missing out on this amazing life. And it's like life is a roller coaster and you'll have these hard things that you go through. But if you heal through the hard things you've already gone through, when you go through those hard things, you'll have healthy coping mechanisms and you'll be able to handle them better. And it won't be so heavy like those other things were. So that's why it's just so important to just work through the shit that you've been through, truly.

I agree. Was there anything else you wanted to talk about? Do you think you got it all? Not all. Well, I know you didn't get it all, but like, you know, my story. Was there anything else? I feel like I have talked too long. I'm sorry. I'm going to have. Yeah, I mean, it's been like two hours, 50 minutes. Oh, okay. It's not too bad. Is that too long? No, I think that's good. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any other, like, stories or anythings you wanted to add in.

I don't think so. I think I really. And I feel like, too, like, because you have, like, the TikTok and stuff. Like, it's good because you have your other, like, stories that you can elaborate on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because that's, I know, like, I forget who it was, but there was somebody else on recently that was saying, like, that's why they like TikTok because they're able, it's like something like this. They can tell their story in long form as best as they can. But then if somebody has like a question, they can go into detail about like something that they said. Yes. And it's like, I want to thank you for giving me this platform, though, to tell my story because this is obviously like we've been talking for three hours. Yeah.

And it's like, I obviously can't do a three hour video on my TikTok. And like, you can't go into as much. much detail in those stories. So like I'll tell those stories, but I don't go as much into detail and as much of like a backstory with us. So I know. And that's the fun part. It's like I feel like you're able to go kind of in order in a way from like beginning to where you are now. Yeah. And it's, it's interesting to kind of reflect on those different like stages of your life and really see the different chapters and the different things. And your birth stories were so intriguing. Like I love them. I love birth so interesting. Yeah. It's.

So like if you're ever nervous about birth, reach out to me because I'll bring positivity to you. Because I think birth in any way, C-section, medicated, no matter what, I think birth is so beautiful. Yeah. Oh, of course. Empowering and cool. It can just be, I think, in general. And I think, too, even what you mentioned with that is like, you know, when you go through dark times, you and then you have a kid, you probably think like, oh, this is supposed to be a good time. So you might feel like.

Guilty. Yeah. But like it goes to show you didn't really have control. Like, you know, you're in such a fragile place. It's something so new. Postpartum is so fragile. Yeah. I have a special place for my postpartum almost because you're just in such a fragile state. And I feel like you don't truly start to feel like yourself till a couple years after a kid. And then if you have them close together, like I feel like all my kids were three years apart, I would finally feel like myself, like fully myself, like even my baby's eight months now. And I feel really good. This is the best postpartum experience I've had. You're getting used to it now. Yes, I'm so thankful. And like I'm saying, I had a bad postpartum experience. So I changed a lot of things.

Yeah. So that I could hopefully have a better one this time. And it worked. Yeah, you learned. But, like, it isn't until about two years where I'm like, man, I am like filling hot again. Yeah. I'm like, who do I want to be? What I want to do in life?

And it takes a couple of years. I'm sure each time too. Each kid is so different. It teaches you something new. You go through a whole different life with each kid, I feel like. I love it, though. It was so interesting. Well, thank you so much. Seriously, I loved this. I loved your life story. Thank you. Now I feel like I need to go through your TikToks and like hear more details of each thing.

Yes, I know. Now that I've heard like the background of it. But no, you did amazing. Seriously. Thank you so much.