We're All Insane - I Cheated on My Pregnant Wife… With a Man

Episode Date: September 13, 2026

For most of his life, Jason did what he thought he was supposed to do. He got married, built a career, and checked all the boxes, while quietly suppressing something he had actually known since he was six years old. In 2003, at 28 years old, Jason came to terms with the fact that he was gay after developing a relationship with a coworker who was also married. What followed was incredibly complicated. There was an affair, two marriages, a pregnancy, fear of being outed, and eventually one of the hardest conversations of Jason's life, telling his wife the truth. Check Out Jason:  → Jason's website: https://www.jasonwaidmiller.com/ → Jason's Instagram: @jasonwaidmiller → Jason's TikTok: @jasonwaidmiller  Sponsored By: → Shopify | Every story has a turning point. If you're ready to build something of your own, start your journey with a free trial at https://shopify.com/insane → HERS | Ready to reach your goals? Visit https://forhers.com/insane to get personalized, affordable care that gets you. → ZocDoc | Taking care of your health just got easier – start here with Zocdoc: https://zocdoc.com/insane #sponsored On This Episode We Cover: → 00:00:00 - Introduction → 00:01:49 - What was it like knowing he was gay from such a young age? → 00:02:47 - Did he feel attracted to his wife? → 00:04:26 - How did he know he was gay from six years old? → 00:06:15 - Why did he suppress his sexuality for nearly 30 years? → 00:07:32 - How did the affair begin? → 00:12:52 - How did he feel after the first time he was with Matt? → 00:14:21 - What was the most stressful part of the affair? → 00:17:51 - What changed for him after the affair started? → 00:21:42 - What happened when he found out his wife was pregnant? → 00:25:02 - Did finding out he was going to be a father change things? → 00:28:09 - How did they decide it was time to tell their wives? → 00:30:26 - What was the difference between attraction and exploration? → 00:34:36 - What was it like telling his wife, “I’m gay”? → 00:37:27 - How did his ex-wife respond? → 00:40:45 - Why did she want to talk to Matt? → 00:41:54 - What was Matt’s response? → 00:43:36 - How did his ex-wife choose forgiveness and grace? → 00:47:46 - What made him decide to share his story publicly? → 00:51:48 - What did they do after coming out? → 00:56:20 - What is Matt’s relationship like with his ex-wife? → 00:58:38 - How did people in his community react? → 01:01:12 - When did Matt and Jason get married? → 01:03:28 - Why did he start posting on social media? → 01:10:54 - How did his wife’s reaction impact the rest of his life? Further Listening → Being Gay in a Homophobic House More We Are All Insane: → OFFICIAL MERCH NOW AVAILABLE - code INSANE10 gets you 10% off for a limited time → Join We’re All Insane Mailing List for EXCLUSIVE Content + Discounts  For ad-free, uncensored videos and plenty of exclusive content please subscribe to the We Are All Insane subscription channel at https://wereallinsane.supportingcast.fm/. It's $5.99 a month and watchable on Apple and Android mobile apps, Roku TV, Apple TV and Amazon Fire. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. So I'm Jason W. Miller. I was born in Washington, D.C. grew up in a small town, Freeburg, Illinois, right across the river from St. Louis. And, you know, went through my life doing everything that I felt I needed to do. and was supposed to do and checked all the boxes. I graduated high school in Freeburg, moved to Boone, North Carolina, went to Appalachian State University for undergraduate and graduate school,

and when I moved to Boone, I met my now ex-wife. I was 17 and she was 15, graduated high school early and we dated for about six years and ended up being married for about five before on the evening of September 7th, 2003, I sat down with her and told her three very key things that changed the trajectory of her life and my life forever. I explained to her that I had had an affair that it was with another man and that I am gay. And at that point, I had been having an affair for about three months with a co-worker who was my now husband, Matt. It was messy. The affair part for me was hands down the most difficult from a guilt perspective because I

knew that that was bringing her into something. And I was September 7th. I was about one month shy of my 29th birthday when I came out to my ex-wife. And that's really, she's only the third person at that point who I had ever spoken those words to that I was gay. It was something that throughout my life I had just really pushed down. And I honestly didn't know what it was until my relationship began with Matt. And he asked me the morning after our first physical encounter how long I had known that I was gay. And I said to him since I was six.

and that's really the first time that I had used the word or the term gay to describe myself. And, you know, I guess I had always thought before growing up like, oh, that was the same-sex experience or that was experimentation and kind of would explain things away, but knew that, you know, when I would go into a room, I would notice the men over women. And there were different things like that. And I certainly noticed growing up that friends, you know, were talking about their girlfriends and about going on dates and that just was terrifying to me because it wasn't of interest. And I didn't really know how to define or articulate that.

So when you met quick question. Yes. When you met your ex-wife, did you feel like sparks of any sort or did it kind of just feel like, okay, I like this person and I'm going to try this route? So definitely I would say there were sparks. you know, we developed a very close connection. And I would say we really became best friends. So for me, I always had more female friends than I had male friends growing up. So it was kind of, I would describe it as almost an extension of that, but at a very different level. Like it was a very different

connection. And she and I shared a lot of the same interests. And so it was, it was very different in that sense for sure. When you were with her physically, did you feel like a disconnect, like within yourself? At times I did. Not always. At times I did. I will tell you after my relationship began with Matt, it was very, very, very different. Like night and day. Like night and day. And actually, you know, even at that age, it was actually physically very difficult for me after that relationship it began with Matt. Right. To even engage physically.

Because then you had something to compare it to. Exactly. And I think it was kind of that, that thing that had been in this box for all those years that had been, you know, kind of the box had been opened. And it was like this is kind of what I, what I guess in my mind, I had wondered what that was like. So it was very, very different. And then, so you said you've these feelings you knew since you were six.

was so what at six years old kind of made you realize like so i think for me it was very much noticing boys more than i noticed girls like i can remember you know people saying oh you know isn't she pretty or don't you like this or don't you like and i just it's not that i didn't find you know beauty in somebody but it was it was very different it was it was a curiosity i would describe it as more of a curiosity. But I think it's also really important from a perspective standpoint to make it clear that, you know, I was born in 1974. So for me growing up, that was during the 1980s, during the entire AIDS crisis. And I really found that to be unrelatable from the standpoint of what you were seeing in the media. It was very, very sensationalized. So,

So it was the gay people you were seeing were, you know, grand marshals in every gay pride parade and very, very, very flamboyant. And I had never been exposed to that. I had been exposed to people who were gay, but not, not to that degree. But that was kind of what you saw. You know, it was this very extreme example that you saw on the media. And that to me was also, I think that kind of further helped suppress everybody. everything because I was like, I don't, that's not who I am. And I, and I, I, I can't relate to that.

It was either like this box or this box. There was no in between. And I think that probably leads to a lot of confusion because you're like, exactly, what are these feelings? What's, you know, no gray. I mean, it's, no gray at all in between. So between six and 28, did you speak to anybody about it or you just completely suppressed it? So I had, you know, definitely like at a young age had like, what I would describe as experimentation with certainly people my age. I had some things happened physically in high school, but never was it spoken of ever. And I think that's an interesting point because not even to myself. Like, it's something that I really, until I got married, I really, and I don't really know why that occurred.

at that time. But for me, I think there was almost a, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but a finality of being married that like, okay, this is like a lifetime. And so now I've committed to a lifetime where there's not really going to be any wiggle room on this. And at that point, I was definitely questioning more after I got married, not before, but after I got married. but I'd never ever spoken the word gay until Matt asked me how long I had known I was gay until the morning after our first physical encounter. So are you comfortable with kind of walking us through the affair and how it started? Sure.

So Matt and I worked together for a brief period of time and he had moved to the town where I was in Boone, North Carolina, had moved there. We worked together briefly. and I'd never really had a lot of male friends. And when Matt got there, he had done his training in Memphis, so a lot more activity than Boone, North Carolina. And when he got there, he would call, he would want to know if I wanted to play basketball.

I'm like, no, I don't, no, I don't even know how to play basketball. But no, I'm not doing that. But we started doing things as couple friends, the four of us, as couple friends. And he was married to. That's correct, to a woman. And so we would do things together. And we did trips. the four of us did trips, but I really felt like there was a closeness and a bond before anything

physical happened. It was just, it was different and it was different than anything I had experienced in the first 28 years of my life. So we, you know, worked together and then we went on an office trip. It was like an office bonding trip and the owner of the medical practice had a large home at the beach, Holden Beach, North Carolina, and Matt and I were the only two male employees or male staff. And so we shared a room. And there were two double beds in that room. And the first night we got there,

there were probably about eight other staff with us, something like that, eight to 10, something like that, all females. And they, you know, we had had a great evening. And the time came that we went to bed. And we talked for about three to three and a half hours. And I am often asked, was there alcohol involved?

We had had alcohol early in the evening, but certainly it was, we were completely coherent. There wasn't anything. I just feel like to like, I kind of like I, and correct me if I'm wrong. Sure. But I feel like that's a very typical question when it comes to infidelity and cheating

with a man and a woman. I think, you know, attraction and lust. I think it's a lot of lust. but to me just hearing your story, I feel like the alcohol doesn't even, wouldn't even matter because it sounds like it would be more so like a feeling of like safety for you. Correct. And that's a very good way to put it. And I think that, you know, the assumption. Yeah. And I can talk talk a lot about assumptions since I started sharing my story online because people are so quick to judge and assume like what you did and what you didn't do and why this

happen and that you know they have it figured out in 30 seconds of something that they hear i always say but you know the the we were we had a very coherent conversation and it was to your point there was a safety and comfortability exactly and it was it was a really interesting i couldn't tell you a lot of specifics about that conversation but i know that there i felt very comfortable and we did start speaking of thoughts and feelings that we had had from an earlier age. And I don't even really know how we progressed to that. But it was obvious that I was not alone in this conversation. One of the hardest parts about actually starting a business is getting yourself to actually start the business. There is always going to be a million reasons to wait, whether it's you need more money,

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Sidekick that can help you build, troubleshoot, and keep everything moving on and pushing along and fix all of your problems. So if you've been waiting for the right time to start something, maybe this is your sign. If you're ready to hear that, cha-ching, of your first sales, today, head over to Shopify.com slash insane to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.com slash insane. That's S-H-O-P-I-F-Y.com slash insane. After about three or three and a half hours, we had our first physical encounter and, you know, everybody went to sleep and the next morning we got up and we went running. And I said to Matt, do you feel badly about what happened? And he said, I don't feel badly about what happened.

I feel badly that I'm married and I have just had an affair. And I think that was the part that really summed up at that time where we both were. And it's difficult to describe how there was this connection and there was this, I don't know, it was almost a liberating feeling as the, way I would describe it of having that connection because I had never ever felt that way in my entire life. And then there was the complete conflict internally still of, oh, no, now what am I going to do? Like now Pandora's box is open. So like what now what is going to happen? Yeah, because it's like you have this feeling of a most understanding.

Correct. After years of kind of questioning or not understanding what a feeling. was and then I feel like you have the aspect of okay I had an affair I have to handle that and then I have to also handle out a complete change in my life because now I've discovered what I've been feeling did you feel any fear or shame behind being gay once you figured out that's what so I didn't so that's that's I didn't but at that point at that moment when we went running I think for me, I was more focused on the affair part. Yep. Because I think it's important to note that my father, who I was not at all close with,

I was an only child, was not at all close with, was a serial adulterer. And I lived that with my mother, and I saw the hurt that that caused. And a lot of the times, my mom did not know about it until long after the affair occurred. So I've talked before about so many things that my father did as I grew up were major notes for me of what I didn't want to do. For example, as a parent and who I didn't want to be as a person. And I didn't dwell on it. And I didn't kind of wallow in that. But I used it as like, okay, lesson noted right here.

This is not what I want to do. So that really bothered me because that was something that I, really did not agree with it all that my father did. And again, he did it. You know, he was straight. It was a different type of thing. And I'm not, I'm certainly not making excuses for an affair because they're never right. It was just a different thing, definitely, that he, that he was going through. So that's where I was that morning. And it was not until that afternoon that we were on a jet ski. And Matt turned to me and over his right shoulder. And he said, so how long have you known you were gay? And it was in that moment that my wedding band was gold at the time.

And the sun hit my wedding band as I looked at it. And I was holding on to Matt. And it literally like that stopped me in my tracks. And I said since I was about six, because I was getting ready to actually say, I'm not gay. That was experimentation. That is how ingrained that was in me.

And how hard-coded that. that was and how well I had done for almost 29 years, suppressing everything, that that was going to be my response. And the sun shining on my wedding band stopped me in my tracks. And I said since I was about six. So when I said it, I realized it's kind of one of those things that once those words come out, they're out. There's really, I mean, there's there is no going back. And I knew that even though I had shared it only with Matt, that was a very, very big deal. Those words were out.

And I think we all can think of examples that times that words come out of our mouth and you realize they're gone. The words are gone and you cannot retract them. And that's where I was in that moment. It was a very surreal feeling. I remember very well all these years later, 23 years later, almost 24. what that felt like in that moment. I can remember hearing my heartbeat and feeling my heartbeat like in my ears because there was this exhilaration, but it was also there was a fear in me sharing those words. Yeah.

Even with him. Right. It opens a whole another door to everything. Completely. So after how long was after the jet ski ride, how much longer were you guys on the trip? So we were on the trip. one more full day. And then I dropped Matt off at the airport because he was getting ready to meet his ex-wife on a trip.

And they were going to be gone for a week. So here is more of me than anybody has ever known. I have shared. And the person that has been a part of this is we're going to have complete radio silence. They were out of the country for one week. And you went home. So I went home and knowing and worrying. Now, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, can be tightly wound sometimes.

So, so for me, I just kept thinking if he says one word, I mean, like the gig is up. I mean, he says one word. I'm going to be outed. And he was thinking, of course, later revealed the same thing. So we both are kind of like, if anybody feels overwhelmed, whatever it may be, like, somebody says anything. it's over like for both of us. Did you have an idea in your head at this point of when you were going to tell your wife or not yet?

Absolutely zero idea. Okay. Because at that point, you know, this started and there we were together for about three days. He was gone and he would go this, you know, this is really before international cell phones and all sorts of things. So he would go to an internet cafe in the morning. and every morning and would send me an email. And I would write back and I guess he probably wouldn't see it until the next day. But that was kind of our temperature check is the way I would describe it like, okay, what's going on?

But zero idea because more than anything, I knew that I couldn't really progress with everything without him understanding. Like there being an understanding at least of how I was going to do that. not necessarily outing him, but even if I just said, hey, I'm gay. Like, if I just came out. So I knew there was going to have to be an understanding. So it wasn't until Matt got back that we had any sort of conversation at all and not, still at that point, not about coming out. Matt used to have a term that has stuck with me all these years about re-assimilating, re-assimilating into our former lives with our wives, re-assimilating into society for the way we had conformed all of

years so that was when he returned that was the conversation because you have to also understand you know I'm in a small town in Western North Carolina at the time and you know this is in 2003 so very very different time and Matt has just finished gosh 13 years of training and is in practice in this small town and you know I'm thinking too like this is going to ruin every like everybody is going to be unemployable. Like this is really going to be a mess. So it's when Matt came back.

And I remember the date because there is a very, very key thing that happened on that date. But it was June 6th of 2003 that Matt and I met after work to try and sort through like, you know, how do we navigate this? What do we do? How do we get this, you know, back in the box it came from like, what do we need to do? Because keep in mind, the four of us are couple friends. Right. So, and keep in mind that he is my ex-wife's physician.

Okay. So June 6th, we have this conversation and we don't come to a conclusion, and we get in our respective vehicles to go to our respective lives with our wives. And as we're getting in the cars, our cars, Matt says, the only thing that would make this more complicated is if one of our wives were to get pregnant. And I went home and I opened the front door and saw my ex-wife sitting very similar to how you are sitting right now on the couch crying hysterically. And I said, what is wrong? And she said, I'm pregnant and I'm worried that I have harmed the baby because I had alcohol last weekend. And of course, my mind is thinking, okay, well, that is right in this very moment, the least of what we have to sort through. And she said, will you call Matt?

So I, this is in the days of, Right, talk about messy. Right, this is, right, you want to talk about the messy middle of life. This is, we're right in it. And so this is in the days of the cordless phone. So I pulled up the antenna and I stepped out onto the front porch. You're like, well, you jinxed it. Yeah, and exactly.

I was like, so do you remember what you said as we were leaving? And, you know, he, of course, is in disbelief. And the four of us, Matt and his ex-wife and my ex-wife and I went that night and had a celebratory dinner about the pregnancy. And that, of course, started an entire different flood of emotions of, you know, I'm going to be a father. I'm in the middle of an affair. I now can admit that I'm gay. Like, you know, what's going to give here? Weight loss is one of those things that can become so frustrating because what works for one person

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within myself. I need to tell her and kind of. So I would say that I was kind of in the middle of that. So for me at that time, I didn't really, there were so many emotions. There was the guilt. There was the disbelief that she was pregnant. There was the fear of how is this ever going to work out. Yeah. There was the, there were the feelings developing with Matt. You know, that, was because that bond was becoming stronger uh there was the feeling of guilt also that i was pulling away from my ex-wife and also i really felt that she was going to misperceive that as i wasn't attracted to her because of the pregnancy and things like that so i was still very much i in that moment trying to gather as much information as i could in every direction

so that I could figure out, like, what do I need to do? Like, what is the path forward here? How do I proceed? So in the conversations that you and Matt were having of kind of trying to just navigate next steps, did you guys ever come to a conclusion of we should do this at the same time and be together? We did not. Okay. And so I think this is difficult for people to understand. So we did not. We continued throughout that summer. So this went on for about three months. Okay. we continued throughout that summer with couples trips our wives were encouraging us to do things together because i was really struggling from from an emotional standpoint a psychological standpoint

started affecting me physically just the stress yeah just we had a lot of a lot of stressors going on. And so, you know, our wives were encouraging us to be together because everybody misperceived my stress and my obvious angst as, oh, he's really freaked out that he's going to have a child. And so, you know, I'm getting like books from people about fatherhood and, you know, the long book. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, this is, okay, this is not the manual that I need right now. Yeah, literally. The manual that I need. So we never had a conversation.

It was really more about, I would say, we would talk about more what was going on in the present moment. It was never like, okay, we need to do this. We need to do this on this day or this time. Never. Including up to the day that we told our wives. And we did individually, we came to the conclusion that that day that we, that day, that we were both going to do that. And I called Matt, I told Matt, I told Matt, no discussion about it.

That's crazy. That's correct. Yes. Wow. So, so we, we were both, it was to a point, though, that I have to say that it was, it was, it was affecting everybody at every level. And I think that, I think that, that people knew that there were, I mean, it was very, it was palpable that, that something was not right. It just, nobody really knew what. And I think it's, I think, I think, it is good that, and some people might disagree with this, but I think that it's good that you guys did have a very real authentic connection because I think that that probably solidified for you both, like, okay, this is a real feeling, this isn't an experimentation, this isn't a phase, this isn't something that I need to really question. Like, I think that when it came to you guys,

it seems that way, at least from what you're saying, that it was just, you're saying that it was just, just very obvious that there was a deep connection there. And I think that that's better than just somebody random or a fling or something. You know what I mean? So I would agree with you. And I think that that's something for me after we did come out that was very difficult to hear people say. And a lot of times what we would hear is, well, you know, you understand that if you are in a relationship that began as an affair statistically, that's not going to last. But once again, I think, I just think I hate to say it, but I do feel in your situation, it's very different. So, and I'm also very reluctant to say that because I don't ever, I don't, I'm not,

and I want to be clear, I'm not asking for sympathy. I'm not asking for a pass for the affair because an affair is an affair. It is even, even in my mind, and that's really where, you know, years of therapy for me, talking with various therapists, even about my father and the issues that I had about the affair, you know, that was, I've gotten. a place where I'm able to deal with that internally because it was it was something that was different too obviously you know we're human humans make mistakes sure and it's okay to reflect and be like was this the right way no probably not but at the same time I think the moment that you guys had

on that trip was a moment of self-discovery I don't think it was necessarily a moment of lust and attraction and I think a lot of people there is a pool of people who cheat solely because of that like solely because they just can't help themselves they just want to fuck whatever yes and that's that and there's like a high almost for them but i don't think that that is the category either one of you were in i think it was a like you said a moment of conversation and of feeling like obviously there was something bottled up within you guys for years and i think that was probably the first moment and maybe the only moment that you both felt like wow i'm is this what this is and once again, granted, you know, maybe something physical shouldn't have happened at that time because

you guys were both married. And I think that that's very obvious that you can understand that, but do I think that that automatically means it came from just lost in attraction? Absolutely not. I think it came from a place of a place of comfortability and understanding and safety and feeling like, wow, I feel like somebody can see me and I feel safe enough to open that door. I agree with you. And I think that that is a a very informed perspective is the way that I would order. And I think that people can be very, very quick to rush to judgment. And I think that your point about the connection with Matt, you know, I think there was obviously

a connection. The fact that we did on the same day come to the conclusion that we needed to tell our watch. And as you might imagine, that's not exactly a conversation. Well, it wasn't for me. let me say that that I entered into lightly. I knew that my words, it was terrifying. And I knew that my words were going to forever change, not just my life, but my ex-wife's life, who at that time was four and a half months pregnant.

Right. So it wasn't something that, you know, just willy-nilly, I'm like, oh, hey, I'm going to say something today. I mean, that was something that at that point, I, that day, I left home. for a while and really had to go and really had to go and clear my head and my thoughts. And I love to talk. So for me to really have to go and do that and think about it, I mean, it was the gravity of that conversation was right up there with conversations in my life. I can think of one other conversation in my life that is really a kind of a showstopper, but that that one was way up there.

I don't know about you guys, but I feel like making a doctor's appointment is one of those things that I have in the back of my mind and it's just always there. I know I have to do it. And then, of course, life gets busy. Things get hectic and I completely forget. And then I find myself asking myself, oh crap, I have still not made my doctor's appointment. I'm definitely overdue. How long has it been? All of these questions are constantly circling through my head.

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to-do list. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash insane. So when you decided to have that conversation with her, did you plan on saying anything about Matt or just focusing on yourself? Just on myself. Okay. And so I basically, I went back home. It was evening by then and I went back home and you know she knew that something was wrong and I and I want to just say I'm very careful to not speak for what somebody else felt or their feelings but I'm speaking from my firsthand experience of what I witnessed and you know I went back to a dark home and she was very upset not really knowing kind of you know where I was what was going on and I just said that I needed to speak to her and we sat on the couch and I told her the same three things that I

said to you as I started, I said I have had an affair. It was with another man and I'm gay. And I did not mention Matt's name at that time. And what was her response? Immediately she's her immediate words were no, you're not. And you know, that's really all I ever share of that conversation was her were her immediate words because it was, just it is still chokes me up this many years later it was really a gut-wrenching conversation and i think for me it was hard to imagine then and over two decades later it is still difficult for me to imagine the level of hurt and what she truly felt yeah when she heard those words right and i think too, that's another thing, which in my opinion, is further supports what I said before.

I don't think there was ever a point where you wanted to hurt her. Never. And at the end of the day, that's still somebody you love as a person. So to sit there and know that you're hurting them. And then on top of it, you know, like women's brains, they blame themselves a lot. And, you know, and I think that it can get really sad to think about. besides just hearing the news of that, but then here, blaming yourself, thinking of all these things within yourself, you know, and not to speak for her, obviously, but I think a lot of women will

often think like, what's wrong with me, like this and that? And I think that just all the thoughts of that are really, it's really heartbreaking too. Absolutely. Because, you know, she, she handled it in a way that was more gracious than I would have, than you could have, and more forgiving than even today. I mean, people still don't believe fully the way she handled it. But, you know, very quickly after that conversation even, she said this, it's not that it necessarily that it, that it makes it better. But she said for me, one of the things that she and I talked about it, it was actually easier for her that it was not another woman. Yeah. Because she wasn't comparing herself then directly to someone's body.

body, you know, body size or body, you know. There's, yeah. Exactly. All the, all the, all the things. So, so that was something that she shared that I found very interesting, but it made, I mean, as you just said, it made a lot of sense. Mm-hmm. It made a lot of sense. So after the conversation, did you, how long until you let Matt know that you told her?

Well, so as the conversation unfolded that night, she was very, very emotional. we both were, but I was very concerned about her. And so the kind of the crazy thing is we lived right next door to her parents. Okay. And I did not feel, and this proved to be the case that she would not want to tell them right away. And so I was concerned about her from a physical standpoint just because of her reaction. So I called my mom and I said, I need you to come over. and she came over and as she came in she thought something was wrong with the baby.

Same night. Same night. I mean, flew over, I guess would be the best way to describe it. And she came in and the three of us sat on the couch and I shared the exact same things with my mom. And my mom really didn't even pause and looked right at me and said five words that are still with me today. and I still love you. And I knew in that moment that I, that I didn't ever really doubt that my mom would be on my side or that would be in my corner would be like the ultimate ally. But at that point, my ex-wife had asked me if she knew the person.

And then when I said yes, her next question was, is it Matt? Wow. So, because we were spending a lot of time together really, really. even at our ex-wife's, wives' urgence. So we were spending a lot of time together. So she asked that question, and I immediately admitted at that point, I mean, at that point, there wasn't anything that I wasn't going to talk about. And she would ask me questions.

And I, you know, I was very open and honest. And she was actually able to trace back to that weekend that everything started with us, that this is when things changed. Visit BetMDM Casino and check out the, The newest exclusive, the Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and Game Sense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only.

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And the way I recall it was before my mom even got there that she knew. And she then said, this is, gosh, probably within a couple of hours of me telling her, she wanted to know where Matt was the next day. And I said, well, he's in surgery. And she said, I want to talk to him. So I reached out to Matt that evening. It was several hours. We had complete radio silence.

and, you know, we had, in our respective homes, had told our wives, and I reached out that evening. And I think what our, what our thought was when we talked earlier in the day and both revealed that, hey, I can't do this anymore. I've got to say something. We both felt that we were going to be, end up being kicked out of the house and that we, you know, would probably have to go to, there was going to be like a massive blow up that night. But I think that it was honestly such a shock to ever. everybody that, you know, kind of all the stages of grief, like people are going through all different stages and people certainly did at different times. But I think that really the shock was more than anything that there wasn't, I mean, nobody was leaving the house that night. There was a lot

of talking. Quiet, yeah. A lot of talking. So you gave him a call. You told him that you told your wife and your mom. That's right. And what was his response? I remember him asking how everything went. And, you know, I shared that it was, at that point, it was just, there was such devastation that it was really, you know, I think it would be the way I would like in that as kind of, you know, a building collapses. And there's just debris and rubble and dust everywhere. And you're trying to figure out like what this is on the ground, you know, just really trying to figure everything out. So I just remember it described. I remember telling him about what, what the reaction.

had been and that my mom had been there and I do remember telling him that she that my ex-wife wanted to talk to him. And did you feel any sort of relief that night or was it still just a lot of negative emotion at that time? So interestingly, I felt relief that the lie had stopped. Okay. So I felt even though in the midst of all of this chaos for me, the fact that the lie had the perpetuation of the lie had ended that weight that that because that was a lot and as the saying goes and it's something that I have told my daughter the the entirety of her life is when you tell the first lie you are going to continue to lie until you tell the truth like and it just builds and builds and it became exhausting like it was truly exhausting and it was so

deceptive it was just you know that it was so multi-layered so I did feel relief in that sense. Okay. And then on that same phone call, when you told him that your ex-wife wanted to speak with him, did he then reveal to you that he had told his ex-wife? So I knew he had told his ex-wife, but we didn't get into a lot of detail at all about what had happened there. But yes, I knew that he had told his wife as well. And I don't even remember that night if I knew that it was revealed that I, was the person. I don't remember that. And then how long after that night in that conversation did your ex-wife and Matt have a conversation? The next morning. Okay. And how did that go? So the three of us sat on that same now infamous couch. And it was to me still one of, again, it is one of the most surreal things

that I've ever witnessed because what she said was, I am devastated and really hurt by everything that has happened, but a child is going to be born, and I want to show everyone that this can work, meaning with the three of us. So that was 12 hours later, 18 hours later, that was her response still. And of course, I'm thinking she's pregnant, like they're all, I mean, I don't know hormonally what's going on. Matt would be better versed at that than I was, but I was kind of like, I don't know what's going on here. But it was, it was just, it was unbelievable. It was absolutely unbelievable.

And still at this point, you guys didn't know that you would end up together. No, so that's interesting to. We had never had the conversation of we're going to have an affair. We are going to tell our wives and we are going to end up together. Like we're, you know, Thelma and Louise, we're going to run off together. It's, we never had that conversation. It's very like in the moment. What's next?

It was very in the moment. But this is the other thing that it was not this really contrived scheme that we had. It wasn't at all. And it was, as you've mentioned earlier, it was more evident to me too that it was a true connection. Because it wasn't this. Okay, what's the next exciting thing that's going to happen? Because. No, none of it sounds exciting.

And I want to, I want to be able to be able to. to tell you that from an outside perspective because I think it's very easy for people to judge, especially from snippets of things. But I think that, like I said before we started filming, I think that this is such a powerful conversation because while yes, there's infidelity and there's, you know, lies and cheating and whatever throughout, it's such an important conversation to have because there are so many people that suppress feelings that they have out of fear, out of shame. and they go their whole lives, never truly finding themselves.

And, you know, I think that everyone deserves to live a life where they're truly happy and they're authentic to themselves. You know, the most powerful version we can be is the one that we're authentic to ourselves. Absolutely. And I, and I, and I appreciate you saying that because it really, you know, for me during all of this, it was, you know, when we moved out even, we didn't move in together. together. Matt and I moved into separate apartments. Like we were very intentional about the way we progressed because we understood. I mean, we were both smart enough to understand. There's a lot of

emotion involved in this. And, you know, we wanted to make non-emotional decisions that we felt were, you know, appropriate given everything. So it was not. So at that, the next day, for a period of time, there was not a, oh my gosh, let's let's move in. And, let's do this, let's do that. That wasn't what happened. Well, I think, too, people forget that, you know, this decision on both of your guys' end, it uproots your entire lives. You know, we live in such a judgmental world. We live in a place where, you know, it's, that's not always, being gay is not always accepted or treated nicely at all. It's not the norm to a lot of people. So, you know, that on its own is scary, you know, so for anybody to assume that it's like, it was some fun

game for you guys. You know, it's just, it's interesting to me just because I think that it's very obvious that that wasn't the case. But once again, going back to what I said, I think it's amazing and powerful that you, you own your story the way you do because I wish more people felt okay to share their truth and to share like, okay, I can acknowledge that I, that this part was wrong, but I can also acknowledge, like, the relief it is in owning up to something that I did and also finding who I really am after all of these years of, like, suppressing and suppressing things. I, you know, I agree. And I think that something that you said, I want to, want to talk about a little, and that is with the number of people who are judgmental, but also the

number of people, sadly, who are judgmental and who are living exactly. the way I lived for 28 years. And, you know, it's kind of often, it's the people who are protesting and making the most noise are the most unsettled in their own lives. And I think that's really sad. And since I started this journey of sharing this story, you know, I had zero idea if this would be relatable to people. I had zero idea over two decades later if it would be relevant to people. I didn't know what to expect. As I've shared with you, I didn't even have social media before this. I did not even have social media accounts. And the hundreds and hundreds of people from all over the world who have reached out, some of whom have come out since

they have heard this story, some of whom are in, I can think of people in decades-long relationships with men and they're married. I mean, I can think. I can think. of people who have been married for decades and they will write to me. And it's like, I hope someday I feel the strength. And you know, for us, and I don't really know why Matt and I put this, and it's definitely a lot different for us now because I'll be 52 in October. And at the time, you know, I was 28, but we would say, I don't want to be, like, I don't want to wake up at age 60.

And this is like, this was toward the latter part of our, of the affair before we, told our wives, but like we don't want to wake up at age 60 in this terrible lie, you know, going on family trips together where we have children and grandchildren and we are living this lie for the entirety of our life because, you know, my mom always said to me, like, this is not a dress rehearsal. This is our one shot at this. And I think for me, that really resonated. Like, I don't, I don't want to, it's not just, it's not just about me living the lie. I am involving somebody else in this like it would

have been for their lifetime, you know, what I'm saying. And so, so I think that's, it's very interesting how people are very quick to judge and we are in such a, you know, just such an interesting time where things tend to be more polarized than they were at one point.

And, you know, you just get so many different opinions about, oh, you always knew. Visit BetMDM, Casino, and I'll check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly.

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that I was gay and I'm the one in this body living this life. It's like, okay, how for 30 seconds did somebody, they're able to tell me what I have felt like, you know, things like that to your point about being judgmental. It's really, it's really interesting. But I feel like the connection was definitely there for us, even as we progressed past, you know, past telling our wives as our relationship continued to evolve. Yeah. And then after the news is.

out, did you guys both move out of the homes and kind of, okay? Yes. So Matt much more quickly than I did. So Matt was within about a month moved out. I was finishing my master's degree at the time. And my ex-wife and I, you know, again, she's pregnant, of course. So we spoke about kind of the timing and what made the most sense. So I stayed the month of September, October, and left the beginning of, in November and left moved out the beginning of December with the understanding that when our daughter was born, that I would move back in for about six weeks. Just to help. Yeah. Exactly. And at that point, you know, we were trying to figure out, like, how often I would have Ella, our daughter, you know, like how that was.

all going to work and we did everything, you know, jointly. That was all very amicable. We never ran into any issue. It was always very important to me, for example, that, you know, they were in a nice home. So I moved. I mean, I took very little. And I remember actually, you know, my attorney saying, you know, you're in North Carolina. It's 50-50. And that just wasn't, it was more important for me. And a lot of this was certainly from a place of guilt. But, but also it was just really important for me that they were comfortable, you know, because I knew this was going to be a different thing. So I moved out in December. Ella was born the beginning of February.

And I think the other part that's really an amazing part of this to show the graciousness of my ex-wife is she asked Matt to perform the delivery. Wow. And let me just stop and say that did not occur without a lot of planning in advance. And, you know, Matt had one of his partners, medical partners, there in case a medical decision had to be made so that there wasn't the emotional connection. But when that delivery occurred, it was my ex-wife, me and Matt and two nurses in the room. So technically, Matt is the very first person who Ella ever saw.

And Ella calls Matt Papa. You know, you can probably imagine in this small town what sort of talking points. Let's call them talking points. That event provided at the hospital. It was, there were even staffing changes that were made because of that event. I mean, it was an anticipated event for sure. But we navigated that really well. My mother did not help, did not help quell the attention.

In fact, my mother decided that we needed champagne in the delivery room. showed up not just with champagne, but plenty of champagne as my mother always did with the strangest set up with glassware I have ever seen. So each glass was a flower with a colored stem in this large thing. And the bottle went down. So she carried that into the hospital. I was like, okay, well, you know, maybe a little subtlety would go a long way here. We don't want more attention. but, you know, it was, it was, there was a lot that came out of that. We actually, interestingly, had someone file an anonymous complaint with the North Carolina Medical Board insinuating that Matt had falsified a medical record.

They didn't even enter a finding. There was absolutely no validity to any of it. But interestingly, and yes, I was, but just to be clear, I was referred to as Dr. So-and-so's gay lover. Stop. So that was how I was referred. Which, okay, fine. We want to really break it down.

Yeah, I mean, but, but, you know, at this point. Say it how you want at this point. Yeah, exactly. Say how it makes you feel better. But someone thought so much of their complaint that they hid behind anonymity and filed it. So nothing happened with that, but we created quite a stir in Boone, North Carolina. It was Watauga Medical Center.

I don't know if it's still. call that an hour has changed but uh it was uh an exciting time in in boon so right so how how long was matt your wife's physician for so matt had moved just a few well so matt had started practicing in october of 2002 okay and this all started with us in may of 2003 okay and then but he was her physician through it all and then still deliver the baby and everything. That's right. And so she, she then requested for Matt to deliver. I mean, I rather be somebody I'm close with than I know. Well, I think it goes back to what she said to us the day after. Exactly, that she wanted to show everybody that it could work now. I think too, like it shows that she doesn't, she's not a hateful person,

you know, like, yeah. She's not at all. And I think the other part that has been so interesting is how many people have judged her based upon her reaction of kindness and love and grace and mercy. And it's like, okay, well, did you really want this just to be a free for all and everybody be fighting and me not be able to see the baby? So it's really interesting. But it's a, it is another testament to her character. I mean, it absolutely is that she wanted to live out what She told us the morning after is that to show everybody that this could work. At this point, you have to understand, though, like everybody knew. So when we told our wives, unfortunately, or fortunately, however you look at it,

and I actually can find positive in both ways, but we had a couple of people who we had one person who just completely became unhinged in the medical community and said that it was his moral obligation to write a biblical wrong. And he, like a madman, went through the hospital, you know, slamming doors open, going to anybody who would listen from the CEO to my personal physician, to my grandmother's oncologist, because she was going through cancer treatment at the time, to the head nurse in labor and delivery where Matt was part of the staff. I mean, just in an unhinged way. So we didn't really have to worry about this trickling out. It literally was out and everybody knew in this town.

Everybody knew what was going on. And certainly there were some people we never heard from again. Certainly some people we heard from in a very unkind, hateful way. But there were also people who were just true stars and were there for us in a just an unbelievable. way and even an unbelievable public way. Right. And then how long after the final split and everything did you guys really start being able to spend time together and building your relationship and marriage?

Yeah. So we did not go into public really other than going to work for about six weeks. Okay. And then slowly we would get together and go to like dinner, something like that. So Matt and I then ended up buying a home in. May of 2005. And, you know, we were definitely around each other more like on weekends, things like that. Certainly once we, once we moved out, you know, Matt was very involved with Ella from the beginning. Ella was with us multiple nights a week from the very beginning, even when we

had separate apartments or we would kind of figure out how we were going to do that. And it became, you know, we didn't know what was going to happen in this town with Matt's practice and his practice exploded. People came out of the woodwork to be supportive as pay and would come to Matt's patients. We became friends with a lot of his patients and and their husbands. Matt ended up delivering a lot of Ella's classmates and friends, which was a neat, which was a neat thing. But, you know, it just evolved over time and I would say became, I hate using the word normal, but, you know, just kind of, it normalized is the way I would describe it. And then Visit BetMGM casino and check out the newest exclusive.

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. I'm trying to think, so in North Carolina you have to be separated for a year. So I believe it was March of 2005. My divorce was finalized because you have to have that legal separation for a full year before that happens. But, you know, again, it was amicable and we were able to work through everything with, you know, my ex-wife being always being very, very supportive of us. It's amazing. And yeah, it really is. So, so the pregnancy hormones, everybody, those theories were, those theories were shot. And so far, you know, Matt and I've been together over 23 years now. So we got married. We lived in, we moved from North Carolina to Washington, D.C. We were in Washington for about nine years. And it was while we were there in 2014 that we got married on our 11 year anniversary. So we didn't have another date. So we got legally married after we had been together for 11 years. And so we've now been married illegally for 12, a little over 12, and together for 11.

That's amazing. So it's crazy. It is definitely not what I would have told you at the time. There was no way for me to even envision. And I mean, certainly, you know, as the little boy growing up in Southern Illinois in the 1980s, it's certainly not anything I would have ever, ever imagined, but even going for, through everything that we did in 2003, it was just not anything I could have ever envisioned, really.

No, or planned. Right. And then as far as sharing your story goes, when did you decide that you wanted to share it publicly? Well, so this has been something that for me, going through all of this, I wrote a lot. So kind of journaled a lot about what I was experiencing how everything, you know, felt to me, like all the emotions and some of the major things that happened. So I had written in large part, a lot, had written a lot of this down. And I always felt like I wanted to publish a book and didn't really know how to go about doing that.

But I've always, and this is complete affirmation for me now, is, have always believed in the power of written and spoken word. And, you know, I think now that I've shared my story and seeing the response and so on, it's just further affirmation of how powerful that can be to people. So Matt encouraged me for years. Like just for years, you know, I was kind of like, what should I do? How do I handle this? So I ended up talking to an author coach in 2000, in 2024, the end of the year and said, hey, I've got this, not really sure what I want to do, how, you know, how to go about doing this. So I shared it with her and she ended up sharing it with a publisher friend of hers who was in New York.

And they're both like, this is amazing, but what's going to make this different? Like nobody, we don't really know like, how's this guy going to present the story? We don't really know. we can read it, but what's going to make it unique? And she said, you know, you really need to consider some online presence. And I was like, okay, I don't know. And I was very opposed to social media because our daughter growing up, you know, it just was like the ultimate bullying platform at time. So I was like, I don't, you know, I don't want to get into all that. But, you know, okay, thanks for the information. And it was honestly, it was October 1st of 20, here I am with,

but dates again, but October 1st of 2025, I was at a conference. The last day of the conference, the keynote speaker challenged everybody in the audience to turn to someone next to them and share a dream. And I had somebody from my office and I said, I want to share my story. I don't know what that's going to look like, but I want to share my story. And so, you know, I shared this all with Matt and he's like, okay, well, that sounds great. You know, what are you going to do? I said, I don't know. And so I was talking to my therapist because I'm a big, I have been very open about that big, big, big fan of therapists. I think that's everybody needs one. And so I was talking with her and she challenged me.

And she's like, you know, I want you to look for like a brand strategy. Somebody who can kind of help you. And it was just literally like gasoline on a bonfire. And I found various people. But I ended up connecting with. this lady, Anna, up in Boston. And I met with her. We did a, you know, did kind of a preliminary session over the phone. And she's like, I think this would be better if you came up here and like, we really worked together. So I wanted Matt to go. He couldn't go. He had call. Wanted Ella to go.

She was finishing exams. So I'm like, oh my God. Like, are you serious? Like, I'm going and doing this. Like, I don't know anything about social media. So we set up a TikTok account. We set up an Instagram account. And I, so I went to Boston and worked with her. I did a photo shoot because she's like, you know, we need to plan for a website. And so I worked with her. But before I went, she challenged me to write my story in no more than a page and a half, about 1,500 words. And I said, like, I'm 51 years old.

Right. Yeah. But it actually was way easier than I thought. In fact, I did it in one writing and made, I think, three edits. That was it. So it wasn't like I, you know, wrote 10,000 words and then I had to produce it. And so I went and she said, I want you to tell, for your first ever post, I want you to tell your story. And I thought about it.

And I said, okay, I want to read my story because it's important enough to me that I want to read it verbatim. Like I don't want to inadvertently miss something. So I sat in my room. Boston and I read it and that was my first ever post on November 21st of 2025 and she there were three goals and she said what are your three goals I said okay I want to have 200 followers by the time I leave Boston I want one of my first five videos to go viral and I said so what's viral she said you're your 50 like you've never had social media so if you get 10,000 views she's like 10,000 views for you having

no presence right is going to be huge. And she said, what's the other one? And I said, well, I want to do this full time. Like eventually, not social media. Everybody's like, what do you mean? No, but I want to do, I want to be able to share my story and share other people's stories. And, you know, enlighten people and do exactly what we're doing and speak to groups and so on. So I did it.

And we went to dinner. She and her husband and I went to dinner. And there's a clip of me that her husband actually filmed. And the first one is just going crazy. And I'm like, and I said to her, I said, this is happening. And here I go. I get choked up because I also wanted to have, I'm sorry, I said 200. I wanted to have 100 followers.

And as the plane was taking off, I had, I reached, I will never forget rolling down the runway, 200 followers. Sorry. Crazy. No. Yeah. And it's, it's just one of those things. where it was there are surreal things in life but it was so surreal because again it's something I had held for over two decades and I didn't I didn't know I thought people would be like who cares

like who cares but you know it's I love to talk and it's for me I think that people have just been able to connect through feeling that I'm authentically which I am presenting myself and you know really not holding anything back at this point and answering questions and saying you know what, this really was a mess, like a very big mess, but, you know, here we are. And I think, too, seeing the response, there was probably a form of validation in a healthy way for you to be like, okay, this is the right thing for me going forward right now, like to share my story and to get it out there. And I think it's nice to be able to see and be reminded that people do care what's going on in your life and what you have to say.

I agree. And you know, for me, so much of what goes on with my social media is really behind the scenes because as we've talked about, a lot of people don't feel comfortable following me because of how this all started. And they don't even feel comfortable liking it. So you can see the engagement behind the scenes. I mean, I can see all that. But you see a lot of what's going on. But people aren't. It's those numbers speak very differently than even what you, what you see. And yeah, there's still a lot of, I have a lot more than 200 followers now, you know, that sort of thing. But it, but it has really been a very wild journey. And I think it, as you said, it was, it was validating that, you know, sharing it, that, that, that was relatable to a lot of people. And yeah, there are, you know, I say engagement is engagement. You know, you still, you get, you get a lot of the negative comments to normally just leave those alone. But the number of people and the number of likes and the number of people who have reached out to me through direct messages or through email or whatever. It's, it's just, and the number of people now who've submitted their story through my website for even my own podcast.

It's just really a crazy thing the way it's, the way it's happened. And it really feels to me like it was meant to be. And I think that there's a lot of power in what's happening. And so many words of encouragement of this is so needed. Please keep going. Don't stop. Yes, don't let people discourage you. Visit BetMDMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive.

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And then, so from that day that you started the Instagram page, you've just been cruising with it. So I have never missed a day posting. Good for you. It's amazing. Consistency is so key. It is. So there you go. So I have not. So TikTok and Instagram every day. I post. And, you know, I try and do lives on. So I do different things to engage people. My website. A lot of people go there. But yeah, I'm having a great time. So I'm doing that. And then my own podcast now. So I really, it's been really a lot of fun. A lot of fun. I'm so glad. And I'm so glad that you're here and you're willing to come on here and share your whole story. You do such an incredible job, really.

Thank you. I appreciate and I appreciate the opportunity. And as I shared with you, I love this format where it's not, you know, I'm looking at questions. Yeah. Right. Exactly. That I'm not going to have some question because I'm, as I've shared, I don't, you know, this is, I'm speaking about my experience and I don't want, you know, a lot of times people want to

know, well, what did this person do? And what did they say? I'm like, I'm not, I'm not speaking for those people. But I love this format where we can just sit here and have a conversation. Exactly. And it's not, you know, really structured. I like it a lot. And I think, too, something that a lot of, I think, you know, naturally when we're watching movies or reading books, it's like we're so used to getting these perspectives of everybody.

And we have to remember, like, at the end of the day when people are sharing their stories, it's people's real lives. And I think at the end of the day, what matters is the person that's sitting over there sharing their perspective and story. I think a lot of times people want to, you know, obviously get curious and caught up and like, well, what did she say? what did he say? But I think the importance really is you being here and using your voice and sharing your story and your experience. And honestly, it's really beautiful as well, even the woman and the character of your ex-wife. You know, the fact that she was, was and was and has been so supportive, you know, from what you've said. And I think that's really commendable and amazing and a beautiful kind of the whole thing of your whole story. You know, there isn't hate or anger

between you guys and there shouldn't be. You know, and I think too, that's another, I think it shows how authentic and genuine you are because I think that's why everything around you has been handled in the easiest way possible, even if there were some challenges throughout. You know, and that's all we can really ask for is just there's always going to be obstacles and difficulties and difficult conversations and whatever else through our lives. But I think that if we are able to show up, just in a very soft, kind way, the best that we can in certain situations. I think the surrounding, you know, people around us, they'll feel that. And hopefully it'll kind of just all respond that way.

For sure. And I think that, you know, this really her response is such a testament to her character. And, you know, it really, I've said before, but she really, she chose love and forgiveness and grace. and ironically grace and not not by chance but grace is our daughter's middle name. Wow. Really because of everything that happened, but it really, it is such a testament to her character and the way she chose to navigate this because it definitely enabled this to also be much more of a catalyst, I think for me, for so much positive change.

I mean, this is really everything that happened that night with that conversation from that night forward really has been such a catalyst. Everything prior to that was such a catalyst for so much change really in how I operated, how I governed myself, how comfortable I felt, how honest and authentic and open I was with people. Because, you know, I didn't have anything to hide at that point. And so it's very much what you see is what you get. Hey, guys, don't forget about We're All Insane Plus, where you can get access to bonus episodes and early releases on Fridays to every Sunday's episode. You can subscribe an app on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube,

or visit We're All Insane.com. Do you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know, the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaya, and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned, and today I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better.

Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem.