We're All Insane - I Was Raised in a Pedophile Cult

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

#foryou #podcast -We're All Insane Plus for Bonus Episodes, Ad-Free Listening, Access to New Show, Guided Mediations: https://wereallinsane.com Zacch was raised in an end-times cult where one man controlled everything—families, money, marriages… even the children. Kids were taken from their parents, underage girls were married off, and abuse was part of everyday life. Zacch's Links: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/boiled-frogs/id1655270404 https://open.spotify.com/show/3UWrUeu5GHx4XMxfGQeuyj?si=PLHNmxaoRtunXxY6hPAe3Q Time Stamps: 00:00:05 – What is it like growing up in a cult from birth? 00:00:17 – How do cult leaders justify their beliefs after criminal behavior? 00:00:44 – How does a cult actually start and gain followers? 00:02:13 – What are early warning signs that a church is turning into a cult? 00:02:57 – Why do cult leaders often blame women for “sin” or “lust”? 00:03:21 – How do cults normalize inappropriate or abusive behavior in public? 00:05:25 – Why do people with traumatic pasts join cults? 00:06:09 – How does childhood trauma make someone vulnerable to manipulation? 00:07:33 – What was the Black Panther Party and what did they actually do? 00:10:33 – How does witnessing violence as a child affect later decisions? 00:11:40 – How do cults slowly isolate members from family and society? 00:12:26 – Do cult leaders control relationships and marriages? 00:13:07 – Why do people agree to arranged marriages in cults? 00:14:27 – Why do cult leaders make false “end of the world” predictions? 00:15:15 – What happens when cult members give up all their money and assets? 00:16:13 – What is daily life like inside a remote cult commune? 00:17:20 – Do cults deny medical care and what are the consequences? 00:18:14 – What happens when deaths occur inside isolated religious groups? 00:19:52 – How can cult leaders manipulate life-or-death decisions? 00:21:14 – Why would a cult defend or support violent criminals? 00:23:01 – What happens when a community turns against a dangerous cult? 00:24:59 – Is physical abuse normalized inside extreme religious groups? 00:26:16 – How are children punished and controlled in cult environments? 00:27:55 – What does “being cut off” or isolated punishment feel like in a cult? 00:29:44 – Do kids in cults receive a real education? 00:31:28 – How does starvation or food control get used as punishment? 00:32:15 – How are children dehumanized or treated as disposable in cults? 00:34:18 – How does growing up in a cult affect emotional development? 00:37:21 – What happens when someone tries to leave a cult? 00:39:56 – Why do former members struggle to reconnect with family after leaving? 00:41:55 – Why do cult leaders take children away from their parents? 00:45:51 – What is it like experiencing the outside world for the first time? 00:49:13 – When do victims start realizing something is seriously wrong? 00:50:30 – How do children find the courage to leave abusive environments? 01:02:00 – What are the long-term psychological effects of growing up in a cult? 01:14:30 – How do survivors rebuild their identity after leaving a cult? 01:27:00 – Why do some members stay loyal even after abuse is exposed? 01:40:15 – What lessons can people learn to avoid manipulation or control? 01:52:30 – How does someone fully heal after escaping a cult upbringing? If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me Devorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. My name is Zach Comfort, Zechius. I was born into a cult that was on the West Coast. and I was in there until I was about 10. The cult was, it was a commune. It was started by a guy named Tom Smith, and he was, he had molested his daughter,

and he wound up going to jail for that, and also going to a psych ward. And it was in the psych ward that he decided he was going to start a church. He had this vision where he saw, like in this cabinet designs that basically showed like the end times in the life of Jesus and stuff like that. And then also like in it he saw his role in like what he was supposed to do.

So he decided he was going to start something called the true church because he believed everything else was just, you know, just a bunch of BS. So was this before or after you were a part of it? Oh, before. This was 10 years before. Okay. So he molested his daughter, got caught, was in the psych ward and then had these visions and then created the cult?

Yeah. Got it. Okay. Prior to that, he was in the army. He used to say he was like a Navy SEAL, and this was like around the World War II era. And I think, you know, they were like Frogmen, which were the predecessors of the Navy SEALs. He said he was that. I checked his military record.

He was not. So, you know, he did that. He owned a cabinet shop. And then after, you know, going to the jail and the psych ward, that's when he decided he was going to start this church. So that was in the 80s. in Las Vegas. And, you know, it was, it was charismatic church. It was, you know, a lot of times people say like fire and brimstone type thing. People were like speaking in tongues and doing stuff like that, which was fairly new for that. Like, I'm not sure if you're familiar with like the Jesus movement.

Okay. So, you know, that kind of stuff started popping up where people are dancing, singing, speaking in tongues, doing things like that. So his church was doing that. And I mean, it was somewhat normal. When he first started it, you know, it just looked like, you know, normal charismatic church. But then he started like locking it down a little more. So, and, you know, doing weird things.

Like he would, he would yell at people like, like in church. He, well, I guess it wasn't so normal because he also like had people like start kissing each other. And, you know, to greet. And then he started getting a little weird because he would start. like french kissing people and like women and then he would try to have people do it to each other like in front of like each other and he specifically did that when he kissed women he said it was for them to control their lust so they had to french kiss him and he was huge on like i mean this guy didn't like women at all i don't even know why any women joined this guy's route but it like everything

that happened was a woman's fault women like they they were just these like lustful beings that like couldn't control themselves. So if you were in his church, you had to be married because or else you were just going to cause havoc. But the husbands would be okay with the wise kissing him? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. And so he and one person did address that, I'll tell you.

It just said it. So he was getting a little bold. So there was an underage girl in church. And he, you know, was making out with his underage girl, like with her parents on the audience. and obviously people didn't like that. And funny enough, somebody reached out to me recently, because I made a podcast about this, and I get weird people reaching out to me sometimes.

So I was just listening to this guy talking. He's like describing that incident in detail. And I was like, oh, sounds like he was there, you know? And so anyways, he had this, like, young girl come sit on his lap and, like, he was making out with her in church. And a member that wasn't there goes up to him later, and is like, hey, I heard, you know, you did this like you know he was thinking it was nonsense he was like of course you wouldn't do that that's

insane and so the pastor grabs him by the face and he you know this is per this guy's words stuck his tongue in his mouth and started like making out with the guy and then he said you got a dirty mind the only reason you think it's wrong is because you have a dirty mind so the home boy was wild and so a decent amount of people left um after that but i mean that that was still pretty early on You know, people, people would join the church, you know, you could still kind of live your life pretty normally at the time while it was in Las Vegas. But you were, you were at church all the time. Like, I mean, like five days a week. So he had a pretty decent amount of people that he was able to get to go.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, at its height and, you know, it wasn't a mega church, obviously. But I mean, like three, 400 people maybe at the height of it. It's crazy. Yeah. Okay. And was he married still? Yeah, he'd been married a ton of times.

And he was actually married at the time when he started it. And then he divorced his wife to marry a younger member that was like all about him. And then he was married to her for the next, you know, 20 years. Okay. So at this point, your family wasn't part of it yet? No, they had joined. Okay. Yeah.

In Vegas. Yeah. Okay. Which is a good point. This is why I have notes because there's so much. I'll forget. So, yeah. So my parents joined in the 80s.

So my mom came from an abusive family. She was like 16 at the time. Her dad had kidnapped her, you know, kidnapped her. When she was a kid, basically he just took her out of her yard and then ran away to California. And then, you know, she had been sexually assaulted, not by her dad, but by her grandpa. And then so she ended up going back to Vegas, which is where her mom lived when she was like 14 or 15. And then a friend brought her to the church. So she joined around like 15, I want to say.

Okay. And then my dad, he had a crazy life. His mom was a prostitute and a drug dealer in Oakland, California. And he, his, so, I mean, that was just wild. I mean, his mom was abusive. She'd, you know, she'd beat him all the time, you know, stuff like that. She'd give him drugs when he was a kid. You know, guys were coming in and out of the house.

So what he did is when he was, I think, 12 or something, his uncle was a big I'm actually probably going to do an episode about his uncle my great uncle he was big in the social rights movement in Oakland at the time the so if you know the black panther party he like kind of helped start that he brought the name over the black panther name over from you know the the Midwest the south and he was working with the guy Stokely car Michael at the time over there. I brought it over Hugh Newton and Bobby Seal. They started the Black Panther Party. They liked the name so they, you know, asked him if they could use it. And then he was very involved with it the whole time. But he had his own, like, organization

on the side, too. And I mean, people tried to kill him all the time, you know. He said the FBI was trying to kill him, you know, all the time. That's eventually why he moved to Oregon. And he bought this little cabin, like, up in the hills. And he always had a bunch of guns because he wanted to see people coming. And I mean, when the Black Panther Party went to, like, storm the Capitol, I don't know if you're familiar with that incident. So what is the Black Panther Party? So they were a activist group back in the 60s.

And what they did is there was a lot of police brutality at the time. So they would follow the cops around and watch them do arrests and make sure that they weren't, you know, beating and killing the people. And they also did a bunch of other things, too. They gave food, you know, they passed food around, they collected resources. Okay. They, there were, like, if you look at pictures of them and, you know, my, my uncle's got a bunch of pictures and, oh boy, films with them too. They look militant.

You know, they were in braves. They were in jackets. A lot of times they have weapons. But, you know, that, that was like the, that was pretty much the gist of what they did. Yeah. And then, you know, they had something called chapters, which were just groups that popped up, you know, all across the U.S. after that, but it started in Oakland. And so he, he was doing that.

You know, I got funny stories about that. But he was a guy, my uncle was a guy who, uh, great uncle, who like didn't take shit from anybody. So when he was five, he got, um, beaten, he was climbing in a white woman's yard. He is black, obviously, he was climbing in this white lady's yard. And this was, you know, well before the 60s, you know, 40s, maybe. and this was in the South. And so she beat the brakes off of him.

Like, I mean, his head swelled up to where it was just like, because she was just beating him with a stick. So his mom came out, allegedly shot her, shot the lady in her front yard, and then, you know, took off allegedly. And so, and he told my dad that story later on. And he said, you know, nobody was ever going to beat me again after that was, you know, ever. And it was true. He stuck to that. know, he never let anybody put him down again after that. So that happened. He moves up to Oregon, but he took my dad with him because my dad was, you know, obviously not in a good, good home.

So he took him with him up to Oregon, adopted my dad, and then, you know, wife was going on there, and then he got killed in front of my dad by his son, actually. So, you know, he did beat his kids pretty good. And, you know, the attitude of nobody's going to beat me also got passed down to his kids. So, you know, his kid wasn't going to just sit there and get, you know. Yeah, exactly. So he told my dad, he said, you know, if he does that again, I'm going to kill him. And, you know, he didn't believe him. He was like, you know, whatever.

So, you know, he came home one day and he was, you know, he was beating my dad's brother, you know, adopted brother. And so my dad said he just started hearing like these like, pop, pop, pop. and you know he was he was just taking a rifle to him and just shooting him through the house and he he fell down in my dad's room and he said you know he can see his like fingers blown off he is like holes in him and stuff like that and you know he's just standing over him you know just firing the whole unloading the whole clip into him and i mean even when it's empty just click click click and you know and then so that that was like my dad's life and that happened when he was like 14 something like that.

So he lived there until he was 18, then joined the Air Force. And then that's how he ended up in Vegas. And then he ended up getting invited to the church. Okay. So I just where they met. That's where they met. Got it.

And I tell that story just so you kind of get like an idea of the people that join. Yeah. In a good background. Like people that were troubled, like they needed some form of community. Exactly. Exactly. Okay.

So. But they didn't, neither one of your parents grew up religious, though. That's actually a really good question. My mom was Catholic. She's Italian, so you're not Catholic. But I mean, nothing serious. Okay. And then obviously my dad, like he said he grew up, like knowing about church and like knowing about the Bible.

But no, never. This was the really like their first. Yeah. Okay. Got it. First like immersion into it. So that's how, that's how they joined. Okay.

That was in like the 80s. And again, things. were fairly normal. You know, they're just going to church a lot. But then he, he started, like, having them cut themselves off from their families. So, like, you can no longer hang out with your families. They're of the world. There's some Bible verses he used to, like, you know, justify that.

Yeah. And so they did that. And then they only started hanging out with each other. And then he also arranged marriages. So at first, it was just like, you know, if you want to date, you go up to him and you're like, hey, I think, you know, this girl's pretty cute. And he'd be like, okay, you know, Or he would say no.

And then it got a little more extreme where he said nobody can date anybody outside of the church. And not only that, but he was like putting people together. And so how my dad and my mom met or got married is he, my dad would get up. And, you know, people would get up in front of the church and like say things that they were struggling with or, you know, anything like that. Kind of like a, I don't know, like an AA meeting or something like that. And he said, you know, I'm having a problem with lust because one of the. one of the tenants of the church is, you know, you have to live like a perfect lifestyle. So obviously that means you're not sleeping with anybody outside of a wedlock.

So, you know, he's saying that. And then the pastor says, brings my mom up. And he goes, do you want to marry this girl? And then my dad said no. And so he starts yelling at him. And he's like, and, you know, my dad explained this. And he was like, the way he was yelling at me, I knew if I said no, he was going to ask me again. And if I said no, he was going to kick me out of the church.

so he and he did ask him again he said so do you want to marry this girl and he said yeah so that's how they got married and that's pretty much how all marriages were like put together so prior that your mom and dad didn't even really have any type of like relationship or anything definitely no relationship I mean they knew of each other because everybody knew you know who everybody was right everybody knew who everybody was but yeah I mean they hadn't dated you know nothing like that So, you know, they got together. And then, you know, I'll just go back into, like, the church's story. So they're in Vegas for a while.

You know, people are coming going, you know, pretty frequently. And then he gives this end times prediction. Like, I think this was right before the 90s, like maybe 88, 87, something like that. Or earlier, actually, maybe it was 85. My timeline is all messed up. But he did this because he had an. idea that he wanted to start a commune. And so the easiest way I think for him to do that was to say that the world was going to end. So we need to go be like self-sufficient. And so he comes up with

this prophecy where the world's going to end in this year. And this is something I don't understand because if you come up with a prophecy saying the world's going to end, like if you're right, ain't no, nobody's going to be around to like be like, yeah, good job. You know what I mean? So it's all risk and no reward because if you get it wrong, which I'm just. everybody does, you're, you look like an idiot. So he got it wrong, you know, but he at least, while he was like coming up with his prophecy or, you know, in time's prediction, he also put in the idea like we are going to start a commune like in the book of the axe or something. It talks about everybody like having everything equal and like throwing everything into a pot, you know,

I'm paraphrasing. And so he said, that's what we're going to do. We're going to throw everything into a pot. Everything is going to be equal. And, You know, that's what they did. Everybody sold their houses, their cars, quit their jobs, you know. When it was time to move, they quit their jobs. I mean, liquidated all their assets. And then threw it in a pot, he bought some property out in Oregon. So Azalea, Oregon, nobody knows where that is.

And, you know, moved everybody out there. And he said, you know, anybody, anybody that wants to leave can leave, anybody that wants to sit can stay. So he had probably like 250 members at the time. and then when he left or when he went to Oregon half of them left easy but he moved everybody else up and that was like a that that was a pretty rough move because he started two businesses a construction company and a cabinet company and he worked people around the clock so like you worked at construction in like the first part of the day and then you went and worked in the cabinet shop the last part of the day and then he also bought a farm so the women were like

the women and the children were, you know, working on the farm. It also at this time, nobody was like he completely cut everybody off. Everybody had to wear the same thing. Everybody ate the same thing. You didn't watch TV. You didn't listen to the radio. We didn't anyone. The kids and women, I think the guys did on like the job sites.

You didn't talk to anybody outside of the group, so you were cut off, commune, the only people you interacted with were the inside. And, you know, like I said, it was pretty rough. People were barely eating and working around the clock, so people were hallucinating on the job. People were like boned in, losing weight. Kids were getting sick. And, you know, eventually that changed because they started making money.

But on the kids getting sick, you know, part of that, part of the deal was like when we pool all of our wealth, you're going to have no needs. Like your housing is going to be taken care of. Your medical, your food. Like, you don't have to worry about anything. You just work. And we will, you know, he'll provide everything. That was more or less not true, obviously. But the kids, like, they'd get really sick,

and he wouldn't let anybody go to the doctor unless you were, like, about to die, basically. And there were some babies that did die. So there's two that I know of. So all births were done at home. One was... Are you born at home? Yeah, yeah, I was born at home.

Wow. And my mom has nine kids, so... Not all. Yeah. All born at home. Well, that was the thing. He wanted a workforce because we had, we had farms, we had businesses, and he was like, pop out as many as you can because... So he was really just creating this whole little, like, Army, basic. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, Army is an interesting word because he was an alleged pacifist.

Yeah. But, yeah, definitely like an army of workers, you know, or a workforce. And so the... The babies were... babies, right. So one was born at home, died, and he told him just buried in the backyard. So they put the baby in a suitcase. He had a 14-year-old girl dig the hole, and they just threw the baby in the ground. And my mom was the midwife. You know, she delivered all the babies, but what the guy did is he, you could get in trouble for anything. And when you got in trouble,

there were different forms of discipline. And one of the forms of discipline is, You weren't allowed to talk to anybody and nobody could talk to you. So my mom was at the, it's called me an out of the fellowship. My mom at the time was out of the fellowship as the midwife. So she wasn't around. But when she found out that the baby had died, she went and recorded the death with the hospital. Or, you know, with the authorities or whatever to get a certificate of death, I think. So they were like, what did you do with the baby?

And, you know, she was like, you know, buried it in the yard. And they were like, you can't do that. So they dug up the baby. They had to bring it in for an autopsy. and they found out it died of natural causes, and fortunately for my mom, unfortunately for the baby, or else she would have gone to jail, and I'm sure multiple people would have gone to jail.

And then the other baby that died, this one was wild, so it was born really early. So I think it was like five months or something like that because the woman that was with child fell in stairs, allegedly. And so the baby, you know, was like popped out, was coming. So they go to a hot. hospital, put the baby on, you know, life support. And Tom, the pastor, pretended to be the baby's dad, said he was the baby's dad, told them to take it off life support because, and he told, he told my mom

or somebody, he said, you know, we can't afford it. It's putting like a strain on the, on the church, you know, and the baby's going to heaven anyway. So he told them to take it off life support. And so they did. And then the baby's mom didn't find out until the next day that he had done that. dad didn't find out for like two weeks because he was working. So, you know, this was just kind of, you know, kind of piece of shit this guy was. Hey, I'm Jeremy Schwartz from American Criminal. On this season, robbery gone wrong or cold-blooded murder? Either way, Boston will never be the same.

Listen to American Criminal, the murder of Carol Stewart, wherever you get your podcasts. Or to get early ad free access, subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at American Criminal. And I mean, I'll get into like going to the doctors later and stuff like that. But it was extremely rare. But the guy's pets, the guy had like dogs, you know, cats. And those animals, like just one of those animals, had more medical attention than probably all of the kids combined.

Probably all of the members combined. So. And how many kids did he have? He had a few from a previous marriage. Okay. None of them talked to him. anymore. There was one that joined the church with him, obviously not the one that he, you know, sexually assaulted, but she ended up leaving, you know, early on. And he, it's

interesting you ask, because that'll come into play later on. Yeah. Because he didn't have kids and the wife that he married, the younger girl that he married, couldn't have kids either. So he ended up taking kids from other families. And I'll tell you more about that later. Yeah. So anyways, they're in Oregon. They're there for a couple years. And I want to say around 88, there was this guy, Larry Singleton. I don't know if you know. He was called the Mad Chopper, but he had cut off this girl,

Mary Vincent, I think was her name, and he cut off both of her arms, rapier, left her for dead. She was like that show I survived or something like that. So that guy had been in prison for a long time, and when they were letting him out, no community wanted this guy, you know, in their community.

So they were like, you know, the equivalent of protesting. How did you get out? I mean, you only go to jail for so long, you know, for certain crimes. That is crazy. Yeah. And the girl survived that. The girl survived, yeah.

I think it was Mary Vincent. Okay. I don't want to, you know, butcher that part of it, but yet. And, you know, 10 years for that. And, you know, because it's not murder. It's attempted murder. And you have a really good argument for that. And you have a really good argument for locking him up forever.

But he, that didn't happen. So, and he, so it was on the news that this guy's getting released and there's like an outcry. Nobody wants him in their community. So what the pastor did is, you know, he talked to the church and he told everybody. He was like, I think this guy's innocent. I don't think he did it. But at the same time, he was like, but I also have this connection to him because, you know, he went to jail and he got saved. You know, he found Jesus or whatever.

and the pastor said, I went to jail and I found Jesus. So if I can be forgiven for my, you know, crime sins, this guy can too. So he said, he can come live with us. And he went on the news and did that and said, you know, he can come live with us and he talked to the guy and all that stuff. And I mean, we're in a small town in Oregon.

Nobody wanted that to happen. So what they did is the locals in the area, you know, just started messing, you know, messing with us, you know, cutting fences, letting cows out, setting things on fire, shooting they would come by and shoot at the house and stuff and like i remember we had this big gas tank and there was a bunch of bullet holes in the in the gas tank because people would come by and try to blow it up and um uh my my mom would she would she would you know she didn't like my dad too much you know at the time and she said you know your dad when they were shooting at the house he would like

he'd be like hiding behind something and she would you know she'd get be upset at him for that and i was like well yeah and she was like i'd go out and yell at him and, you know, try to get them to go away. And I was like, well, he did, you know, he did watch somebody get shot to death in front of him. He probably, you know, so anyways, that happened. And then it was, the pastor said, you know, we're still going to take them. They're going to have to kill us. And he was going to come live where we live, like in my, my parents' house. And I was the hell no. So, you know, I'm glad that didn't happen. And it was the guy, Larry Singleton, who said, you know, actually, I'm good. You know, it seems like that's causing a lot of problems.

He probably didn't want to come moving and get shot at. So he said, I'm good. You know, thanks for the offer. And it was for the best because a couple years later, he went back to prison. He stabbed some lady to death in his home. So, you know. Jeez. He clearly hadn't, you know, repented of his ways.

No. And neither did the pastor. You know, that'll come into play later on too. But so. And then in the 90s, you know, I was born. I was born in 1990. And by then the church was just like a madhouse. So like if you like every day you went to church, now I mean every day in general, you were like you were abused physically, verbally something.

And when you went to church, you like you saw this. Like adults would be hitting each other. They'd be hitting their wives. The pastor would be like punching people, choking people. he'd have like husbands bring their wives up and slap them you know beat them with the like in church so you're like you're seeing domestic violence in church and you know normally that's something you might see at home and you know you know that it's not supposed to happen but when it's happening at church you know it's kind of messed up because especially in like that communal like living because you don't know anything else so you think I'm going to church I'm going to see somebody get yelled at. somebody's probably going to get hit you're going to get screamed at so you see this like domestic violence in church and it's not only condoned by everybody you know and expected but you also think this is like condoned by like god you know because right you're watching a leader do it

yeah you're in church and he's telling you you know everybody deserves it because of like either the sins they've been doing it or something like that right so I mean that was unpleasant and then you go home and you just get it, you get it too. And I mean, the abuse was bad for the kids. Some kids got it like way worse than others. I mean, you know, anything you got hit with anything you can think of, you know, extension cords, paddle, sticks, you know, hammer, hammer handles, you know, just anything that was around.

And they'd even like, they were kind of sadistic, not everybody, but a good amount of people were a little sadistic about it. Because it wasn't just you got beat for what you did wrong. And I mean, a lot of times you didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. And they would make you. And this came, you know, this was a trickle-down effect. So he would do this to them and then they do it to you.

So like they, if you went to church, he'd like bring you up and he'd say, just crazy shit. He'd be like, yeah, you were masturbating. Like I know you've been masturbating and you'd be like, no, I wasn't. Because a lot of people, you know, didn't. They thought if you did that, you were like, you don't know how. He even said you were gay. He said, if you masturbated, you were gay, because that was a man loving himself, and that's the first step to homosexuality. And he'd call people up and, you know, be like, you were masturbating or you were having, like, lustful thoughts, and they'd be like, no, I wasn't.

And then he'd be like, are you calling me a liar? And then that was even worse than if you were doing what he accused you up, so you were just like, yeah, I was doing it. And so, you know, that happened to the kids, too. Even if you didn't do something, they'd push you until you said you did. And then you got a punishment. But yeah, they'd like one instance, you know, they'd beat these kids with extension cords and then they'd put them in hot water after so it stung. And, you know, a lot of the times it was like you got to beat them until they bleed. You got to beat them until they cry.

And then there was other forms of punishment too, which were not physical, which was like being out of the fellowship, which was you weren't allowed to talk to anybody. Nobody could talk to you. you didn't you slept separately from everybody you ate separately from everybody and you ate different too so not that the food there was great by any means at all but you would only eat rice and this could go you could be out of the fellowship for two weeks or where i would say the average was about six weeks where you could be out of this fellowship for half a year you know and as a kid too so you know all grown up i was out of the fellowship me not just me everybody the adults too and you know i'd go weeks, months, sometimes without saying a single word to anybody or anybody saying anything to me.

Including your parents. Including, oh, yeah, definitely. And if he found out that they did, they got in trouble. And he could also, if he felt like a parent wasn't disciplining a kid enough, he would take them away from their family and send them to another family that would discipline them enough. And, you know, that happened to my brother and my sister, my oldest brother and sister. And, you know, they just got, you know, the shit kicked out of them. So, yeah, so you, you know, you could be out of the fellowship.

And those, those are, I actually preferred that form of punishment. Sometimes they'd ask you, they'd be like, you know, what do you think should happen to you for who knows what? Who, you know, really. Yeah. Like, legitimately growing up, I don't think I did a single thing that I might, because I have a daughter now, that she would, that would even, like, show up on my radar that she should be in trouble for. You know what I mean? But I mean, you would get severely beat. You couldn't talk to anybody for months.

You'd have to eat rice. You get starved sometimes. So they would be like, because you had to work. You took on an extra workload if you were out of the fellowship. And I mean, you were working your ass off anyway. So what's the difference? What about schooling? Yeah.

So schooling, they actually did do. They had a school set up. So you were even going to school through them? Yes. Okay. Oh, yeah. Oh, you didn't, you didn't go anywhere. Okay. I didn't talk to a single person outside of the church until I was 10.

And so they had a school in there, and the schooling was actually all right. You know, I learned to read and write very well. But I didn't learn a lick of math. They taught it. But if you got in trouble, you didn't do school. If you, I honestly, I don't know how I got around you and not doing math. Everybody else did math. They learned it.

I'm actually, I have trouble with math. day because I just never learned it I can do like you know basic addition and stuff like that multiplication division you know I learned that stuff later on okay and I and I have it normal so you know it's just math could be it could be that too oh I hated math I don't think even if they taught me I'd be good at it so but I mean I just always got around like not doing my math somehow and then later on like I we stopped going to school or you know attending like the school because we got moved out to these farms and then you were expected to do these worksheets and so you do your

worksheets like pretty much if you were eating you were doing your worksheets and then you get out and go back to work and that expectation just kind of like disappeared everybody was so stressed out like by the time you know i was like seven eight nine years old nobody was really paying attention to you know worksheets you know um but but school was all right you know during that i learned to read and write you know at least fortunate for that so you'd get you would get meals taken away a lot of the times like all day two days in a row you know something like that and there there were times where i eat dog food and i got that i got that hack from my brother because you know we we hadn't eaten for a minute and he was out he was eating

dog food and i was like the hell are you doing and he was like dude it's not it's not that bad and so i was eating dog food and you know to to my i don't know shame, I guess. I was looking, there were like different colored dog food for the one they bought,

and I'd try to get the different colored one because I thought it tasted better. Right, yeah, each one's a different flavor. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't. But anyways,

you know, stuff like that. So, and I mean, kids were treated like shit. Like, I mean, beyond the, you know, babies dying and nobody going to the hospital.

I mean, he put an ad in the paper for my brother and sister one time saying any, you know, I think he said like incorrigible children or child or something like that. Anybody that wants them can take them. You know, put an ad in the paper for a kid like, what the fuck?

And, you know, somebody reported that, obviously. And in church, he said, you know, I guess it's illegal to put your children in the paper. He goes, so I guess we'll have to keep them. And that was kind of the attitude like everybody had like towards the kids. Like you didn't feel, you didn't feel loved it at all. So, but you feel love from your parents? Very, no is what I want to say, very little. Because they were just following kind of his rules.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, for 10 years, I don't remember a single, nice, or, like, positive thing said to me. Oh, like, I didn't hear a nice word for 10 years. And, you know, I was 10. There were people that were there until 14, 15, whatever. Parents eventually, like, fall in love at all. or did they just?

No. Okay. So they were just together because they were told to be. Yeah. Yeah. Some people did. Some couples worked out.

They're still married to this day. But not them. Okay. And she had nine kids with your dad. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. A lot of kids.

What's the oldest and what's the youngest? Damn. Putting you on the spot. The oldest might be 40. Okay. 41, maybe something like that. And the youngest. Oh, what's the youngest?

Just on from just there and then my dad has other kids too. Okay. Damn. Karen, Karen's probably 26, 27, something like that. She just got out of prison and she's doing very well now. But oh, so anyways, yeah, kids were just, you know, and, you know, that happened all that. Like, I hated, like, I hated people at that time. And I know I can't be the only one.

and like the the amount of like anger I had towards people around me was insane but you you got to be blank faced or else he'll you know well you got a problem and then you know you'd start going at you like that so and I mean that that affected other kids I mean you I could start seeing how that affected them you know looking back like I watched one kid it took some kittens we'd had and we had a pin full of like Alaskan Huskies and he took the kittens and threw him into the huskies and I you know I watched them just tear these cats apart and he was just watching and you know and the same same person I found like a bird and I hid this bird from him because like a baby bird I was I was feeding it and I hit it because I knew if you found it he was

going to kill it and I put in these bushes and then he must have he had to have seen me hide it because I went out like two hours later to find it and it was gone and so I was like damn so I was I got to find him because I know that's where it is. And I saw him walking away from the barn. And we had these like makeshift slingshots that we had where, you know, you cut down a tree branch that has like a Y and you know, you wrap a bunch of rubber bands around. He was walking away with his slingshot. And I go over and that my, the bird I had just splatted against the wall. And, you know, he told me later he was just shooting it against the wall with a slingshot.

And, you know, another kid. And this is the like the earliest memory I have is I would. I was laying down for a nap and another kid would come in and put a pillow over. And I was like, you know, three, four maybe, probably three. Put a pillow over my face until I passed out. Like, because I remember, you know, that feeling of stuff, kid. I don't know. You, like, kind of, you kind of like freak out.

And then just black and then I wake up. And that happened multiple times. But my point is that, you know, it was clearly affecting the kids and their behavior. And so, you know, know that was that was kind of life in that the men and women could get kicked out of the church at any time and you know on top of on top of and i'm skipping so much you know abuse that happen like if you did something like you forgot to i don't know take out the trash or something like that he could tell you to shave your head and that would happen all the time so you know you just have to

like buzz your head and then you'd be bald for you know however long until they let you go your hair back and you know that was just life for them they could get kicked out nobody wanted to get kicked out because especially the kids because you think being raised in that you were taught that outside world was just this like crazy place like mad max like people were killing each other you know sexual assault was happening all the time there were like demons flying around everywhere and so you were like i definitely don't want to get kicked out oh yeah the adults they had lived in both world so they knew better obviously but they still didn't want to get kicked out because they obviously believed well he was selling or else they wouldn't be there in the first place so but he would

kick you out he'd be like all right you got to go and when he kicked you out you literally dropped what you were doing and walked down the street and you left your wife you left your kids and he could either you know apparently he would tell people that he was planning on bringing back he was just kind of making like an example of you, you know, get in touch with the church when you leave. And you could be gone for a week, you could be gone for three months, you know. And surprisingly, even after like the longer hiatuses, people still came back. And he would say, while you're out, you can't talk to, you can't go to church anywhere else. He called that spiritual fornication.

So like I said, this dude, this dude was a trip. Yeah. So you couldn't talk to anybody else. You were supposed to work. A lot of people just lived, you know, they were homeless while they were out, you know. And, you know, maybe he'd call you back. Maybe he didn't. If he didn't call you back, he would have your wife divorce you.

And there was only one person that I know of that got their kids out of there. And it's because he got a lawyer. I guess he had some inheritance just randomly and, you know, decided he was going to get a lawyer for that. Everybody else just left their kids, left their wife. One guy, when he got kicked out, he came back and he found out that he had been divorced, like his wife divorced him in like the six weeks or a month, two months he was gone. And married to another guy. And the other guy was, you know, he felt terrible about it because he was like, you know, I shouldn't have married. His words, I shouldn't have married my brother's wife.

And everybody called each other brother, a sister. You called them dad and mom. We called them grandpa and grandma, you know, the pastor. And another thing is, is you, when you got kicked out, you had cut all ties with your family. He, early on, he had you write letters to your family, not me, the adults, telling them you didn't want anything to do with them, leave you alone, you know, just basically giving it to him, you know, so you would cut them off. And sometimes they would send mail, though, to the church.

And one guy didn't know he had this letter for 10 years. The pastor kept it from him. So when he got kicked out, they gave him, you know, some of the stuff. And mind you, this was like, this was a rare occasion this happened that you got anything. A lot of times you didn't get money. You didn't get food. You didn't get clothes. You just had to leave.

But they gave this guy his stuff. And he was like thinking of all the things he wanted to say to his mom like when he was going home. And he reads the letter. I found out she died way before, you know, years before. So he was, you know, you don't even know what's going on with your family. So, yeah. So, you know, nobody wanted to get kicked out. And one thing that did happen was there was a family that tried to rescue their daughter and her family from that group.

So they actually kidnapped her. And that was a whole thing because on the farms that we lived at, you know, they had walkie-talkies so they could keep in contact with the people out in the fields. And, I mean, we lived away from everybody. And they started picking up like people speaking Spanish on the radio. and they were like, what the hell was at? And they didn't know that it was this girl's family, and they were, like, surveying the place and, you know, talking to each other on their own radios.

And so I guess, you know, one of those nights, they broke in, you know, guns, stun guns, tased the people in the house, took the kids, threw them in the trunk, took their daughter, and took off. And they went to, you know, they got caught a couple days later or something like that, because they knew exactly who it was.

They knew, you know, they figured it was her family. So, you know, those guys got caught and then they went to court and that, you know, all the charges got dropped because their lawyer basically pointed out. They were like, they were trying to help their kid out of this situation. And, you know, the way my parents tell that story is they, they said the lawyer just made them look bad. You know, they said they were a bunch of boiled, like boiled frogs. You know, they didn't even realize how, what kind of situation they were in. And so they got off of that. but you know that was um that was that that was just kind of you know life in the church and then

when things i would say this this was the worst part you know for the kids was tom the pastor decided that he wanted to his wife wanted kids allegedly but she she couldn't have children so he basically started asking the members if he could have their children and that asking then to telling. So once they were like, yeah, you can have my kid. And you know, he'd take kids so like some of my family members, because I had a big family, he'd take kids from my family and give them to other people to raise. And those were now your kids. And obviously there was no like legal adoption, nothing like that. So, you know, one of my brothers was raised for, you know, eight, nine years by another family. My sister, younger sister was raised for four years or five

years by the pastor. He took her to his house. And then he would also. take kids, you know, to his house and none of the kids stayed there long, like, besides my sister, who he had since she was a baby. And I remember, like, you know, I'm a kid, and, you know, he would, you know, in church, you'd be like, you know, I'm going to take so-and-so, they're going to be, you know, my son now. And, you know, you would go to church with your family and then you'd leave church with him. And that was your new dad and your new mom. And I was remember, I was like, man, Why aren't none of these kids sticking around? You know, I was like, you know, at the time, even though I hated the things that were going on,

I was told every day that this guy was a prophet and was like this holy man. So I kind of, you know, kind of, I did believe that. And until one day when I found out he was bullshit because I, uh, I, my brother threw a lasso around my neck. And it like, like, you know, kick me back. And when you got a lasso around your neck, you get a big ass like a burn. and so I went to church and I put my my collar up really high that way nobody would see it so neither of us would get in trouble and he he like saw you know something on my neck and he pulled down my shirt and he goes how'd you get that and I was under the impression that he could read your mind right but I was like I'm just gonna wing it I was like I'm gonna like so I said I ran into something and I fully expected him to go that's not what happened you're in and me to get in trouble and he just kind of shook his head and walks away. I was like, this guy can't read my mind. So I, so, you know, I was a little disillusioned then, but anyways, I was like, you know, these kids are getting this

privilege to go live with this guy. And, you know, he never picked me, you know, at the time. So, but they'd always leave after like a couple weeks, maybe, you know, a couple months. Oh, he did have one other boy that lived with him for a while. But that was the guy that left and got a lawyer and got his family that was the kid so he got his kid back like that it was when it was my turn I he was looking at me all day and it might have been the week before some but we you go to church on Sundays and you were there for hours and hours and hours and he kept looking at me looking at me and I was like I was like I think he's going to ask me like he's going to tell me I got to go home with him and sure enough church was over calls me up to the front of the church and he

says, you know, would you like to come home with me today? And you don't say no. So I was, you know, I said, yeah. And then he said, okay, he goes, this is my, this is my son. He's, you know, coming on with me. So, you know, I can't, like I said, you come with your family, you leave with him. So, you know, you know, you didn't, I, I already knew not to like go say by to my, my parents and they didn't say by to me because you'd get yelled at.

He'd be like, you know, are you ungrateful? You know, he'd yell at them. He'd yell at you. Just don't do it. So I didn't say anything. You know, I just kind of like looked at my brothers, you know, and, you know, peace out. And that, and mind you, this entire time, we don't go to restaurants. We eat plain-ass food.

You don't go anywhere. You don't talk to anybody. The first thing we do when we leave church, he goes to a restaurant. It takes me to a restaurant. And I got anxiety like crazy because I was like, what are we doing? I was like, you're not supposed to do this. You've been telling us. You ain't supposed to do this.

why are you doing it and so you know we go out we eat everybody's friendly it's like interesting interesting and then i remember he brought sprite i didn't know this at the time because i didn't have soda and he was laughing he was like he was like bringing the sprite and i thought it was water and he knew that i thought it was water because he's just watching me and i take a you know big ass drink and i just kind of vomited it everywhere because if you've never had soda before it burns your throat and you're not expecting like the carbonation and you can't take like a big drink of it and I did and he started laughing

and but you know that that was first soda I ever had first time I'd been to a restaurant anything like that and how old were you seven okay probably seven and a half you know somewhere around there I didn't know how old I was until I left so it's kind of hard to like guess the age yeah but I'm old enough to remember details like that and so go back to his house

and you know I'm there for a couple weeks And it was crazy because I didn't have to work. Like since I can't remember, I've had to work to some capacity. And the older you get, the harder you work, the more chores you have, the more. And chores is like a light term. You were working, like. Labor. Oh, yeah.

Like hard. And so I was like, what am I supposed to do? I don't, I'm not working, you know? And he had toys and stuff. And he had a TV. All this stuff you're not supposed to have this guy had. And I just remember thinking, I was like, man, why did kids leave? I don't have to work.

You eat better food. Like, you get corn dogs. I never had a corn dog in my life. And you get toys and stuff. You know, you're playing the toys. My brother at the time, who, what he had got taken away and was living with another family, that family was like the second in charge, the lady. So he'd come over and play with me and stuff.

And at the time, I didn't, I kind of knew he was my brother, but like it didn't register at the time. It was just like another, you know, another kid. and I was like, oh, this is great. And, you know, he would still yell at you and do stuff like that, but nothing compared to getting beat by, like, you know, your parents. And I mean, my, not just my parents, but everybody, they were like somewhat sadistic with, you know,

sorry to get back into this, but, like, they would do things like make, they had a paddle contest, like, where they make, like, the paddle that, like, can do the most harm. So, you know, they, like, I mean, they polish the handles. They, they put these. these like tire rubber basically on the and screwed them into these like wooden handles and then they drilled holes in them and they were laughing about it for it was like for less wind resistance and they just beat the shit out of you with these things so you know I'm a slap from from a

dude that's like 60 not going to bother me and so anyways about two weeks in something like that and I remember wanting to make it to a certain point because one of the kids got a toy after like I think he made it like three weeks or a month or something like that and you got a toy and I remember thinking if I do leave because I thought I was going to fuck it up I was like I at least want to stay long enough so I can get a toy and anyways that's that's when he started doing doing stuff and you know he came in I'm not going to get into the details you know I just can't and so he'd come into the room and check you know he said he was checking to see if you peed the bed but it's not what was happening.

And, or you know it was, but how we checked was different. And anyway, so that happened. And I, I remember being like, fuck this, basically. So it was going to do that to your sister, too. Most definitely. But I, I didn't, I didn't connect the dots at the time. And, I mean, now I know where kids were leaving. Like, nobody's going to stick around for that.

And I was, fortunately, for me, I knew I could leave because other kids. left. So I was like they're clearly like you don't have to stay here. So I was sitting in the living room and watching TV and mind you this is how bad I wanted to leave. I never got to watch TV and we're watching TV and all I can think about is I don't want to go back to sleep. Like I don't want to go back in the room. I don't want to go back to sleep. So I'm just sitting there the whole time and watching TV and they said to my parents and everything they said it came out of the blue We're watching TV and out of the blue, he just says, I want to go home. And I did.

I said, you know, I, like, didn't look at him. I looked at his wife and I said, I want to go home. Do you think she was aware? No. No, allegedly. Okay. But I feel like it's hard to not be aware, but as far as I know, she didn't know. And this is, this is partly why I think she didn't know.

Because when I said I want to go home, he started screaming at me. He was like, you're, you know, you're going great. you know, blah, blah, blah. And she's looking at me just, like, disgust, like, you know. And he said, call Carol. That was his second in charge. He said, tell her to get this ungrateful little punk out of my house, blah, blah, blah. And so his wife, you know, she goes, yeah, it was just out of the blue.

I don't, you know, I don't know where it came from, blah, blah, blah. And she was disgusted with me. So I'm thinking, like, if she knew, fuck that lady. But it seemed like she didn't know. and she just thought that I was like some ungrateful kid that didn't you know appreciate the things that they were offering me so then you know the lady comes and picks me up and and she starts you know going in on me like I don't understand what I just gave up and you know I could have been the son of the prophet and you know all these things I just remember thinking whatever just get me you know give me the hell about here and so I go home and he put me out of the fellowship He called and said I had to be out of the fellowship, which means you can't talk to anybody and nobody can talk to you. And that is an excellent way to make it to where nobody finds out what you did.

But I wasn't going to tell anybody anyway because, one, who was going to believe me? This guy was always, always can, like, not convicting what's the word I'm looking for, saying that people were molesting dogs, lusting after each other. he called a five, six-year-old girl up to up in front of church one day to say that she was, you know, lusting after him. It's like, she doesn't even know what that is, you know? And so if you said something happened, nobody's going to believe you. You're going to get in trouble because you're even thinking about that stuff.

So I wasn't going to say anything anyway, but he put me out of this fellowship. Probably just to make sure, you know, I didn't get a toy. So I was kind of bummed about that. But, you know, fuck it. And so, and, you know, that wasn't, I wasn't the only one that happened to, you know, that happened to a lot of other people. And, you know, looking back, especially when I was a little bit older, I felt super, super bad because, you know, my, and I mean, my sister was there, but she wasn't like, I didn't feel like she was my sister because I wouldn't raise with her. But, I mean, if that was going on, you know, just going on with her too. and I mean you're it's crazy to me like thinking about that situation obviously the adults in there were

brainwashed they weren't thinking clearly but this is a guy that told everybody he molested his daughter i got i got a news clip of this guy on the news they say you know because they're interviewing him because he's in this crazy like communal group and this is when he wanted that larry singleton guy to move in so you know they're talking to him about it and you know they asked him they said you know didn't you like you know you have charges of like molesting your daughter and he goes i didn't molest her she came on to me she wanted it and he's saying this on the news you know what i mean so like me knowing if i would have seen that as an adult i would be like this guy's not sorry you know what i mean he's he clearly doesn't think what he did was wrong he's blaming it on his daughter

fuck off so so anyways but our parents were just they were like yeah you want to take our kids to your house cool you know take them you know, obviously that doesn't track with somebody that's thinking clearly. That's an insane thing to do. Why would you even be around an individual like that? But yeah, so that happened. And then how we ended up leaving. And, you know, one person ran away that I know of, two technically,

but one ran away a long time ago, and, you know, they found her, but then they said they kind of let her run away. They let her go to her dads. Her mom did anyway. And this was a young girl that had been her marriage. She was underage and she had been arranged to marry an older man. And she was not about that. So she, you know, took off.

And my sister also ran away, but she was special needs. And so she took off. Somebody picked her up and, you know, sexually assaulted her. And then the cops brought her back. And so, you know, people are just thinking if you leave, like, this is what's going to happen to you type thing. On top of the fact, people were shooting at us, you know, all the time. We lived, at one point, we lived near, you know, the Rajneishi cult. They were in Oregon, wild country was the documentary made about them.

Yeah. No, wild, wild country or something like that. We lived near them. People thought we were associated, so, you know, they gave us shit about that. Anyways, so you don't feel like you can leave, but eventually when we did leave, it's because I ended up. up going to the doctor for some things that were going on and when I went it was pretty soon after I had to be a little older actually yeah maybe I was a little older when I looked at them now that I think about it so they saw signs of physical abuse obviously because you had bruises on you yeah every single day

yeah so it wasn't the sexual abuse with me because I was a little older at this point I was probably about 10 9 or 10 but my sister also had to go to the doctor at the same time and they clearly noticed that there was evidence of sexual abuse so since we had the same last name they brought both of us in and they do a thorough examination of your whole body I remember I tied that you know they put me in a gown and I tied a knot in everything I could because I didn't want to take nothing off but you know they they take it off anyway and you know they look over your whole body and then child services you know they sent child services out to out to where

relived and stuff. And the pastor told the adults to stop beating us. He said, just don't leave any bruises. And so, you know, they did other things. They kicked you out of the fellowship. They put, they'd make you stand on the wall. And that doesn't sound so crazy because you're just standing against the wall. But they left me on the wall one night, uh, all night long. I'd tell like two, three in the morning. And I, and I, and they forgot I was there because my dad came out to go to the bathroom. And I scared him. And he's like, and then, but he, he pretended like, like, like, He didn't forget. He goes, did you learn, did you learn your lesson?

And I was like, yeah. And I was like, he forgot. He didn't know his argument. Right. So, you know, stuff like that. But, and then I was pretty malnourished because I started getting in a lot of trouble after that. It felt like he was, he was targeting me. I'm sure everybody felt like this, but it really felt like he was targeting me.

And he hated me after I left. Maybe it's because I asked to go home. I don't know. But, I mean, he always called me names. Always said I was gay. Always was, you know, saying I was masturbating, doing stuff like that. But anyways, I was super skinny. So when he found out child services were getting involved,

all of a sudden, morning, noon, and night, I had to drink these shakes with ice cream in them. And I remember that because they were fucking delicious. And I didn't know at the time he was trying to get me to gain weight. That way everything looked normal. But I was like, where'd this come from? This is great. No, none of the other kids got to drink it.

But I was drinking these shakes. And anyways, so child services, came through, uh, they coached us to like lie to them. And, you know, I specifically remember, like, thinking, I didn't say it because, you know, you get in trouble. But I was like, you're, what you're telling me to do is not tell the truth. And my entire life, you've told me I have to tell the truth, but you're telling me not to tell the truth. And they said it's because, you know, they're not, they're not, they're not Christian. They're, you know, they don't, they don't believe what we believe. So you're not really lying to them. You're, you're, you're, you're,

you know, because they, they don't count their Gentiles, you know, whatever, the Gentiles, you know, you can't, you can't, why do people that don't, you know, they don't mean anything. So, so, yeah, so, you know, we lied to him, we told him, no, everything's fine, no. My sister came back to live with us, my brother came back to live with us because these are illegal adoptions. He's a sex offender. You can't adopt a child, but he has children coming to his house all the time. So he had to give them back. And then he had my mom, you know, he stood over, had to write a letter to, you know, child. services saying that you know are her kids have always lived with her they're fine he had a lawyer

involved all that stuff and um child services eventually after i think mostly it was after that lawyer got involved uh just backed off but i i think that spooked him a little bit because then he started kicking everybody out so and i mean they had tons of money at this time like they were making so much money and again we never we never we never got better clothes. We never got better food. Nothing. But this guy had so many cars. He didn't drive some of them. He had boats. Like we had this huge shop and it was full of boats. And where was he eating the money from? Just like the church members? So the church members ran a construction company. And they were. He was just keeping all the profit basically. They didn't see any money. Nobody got

paid. So on paper they got paid. And then they gave the money right back to him. And then they tithed all their money back to the church. So in a church is nonprofit. You don't tax it. So anyways, but, but I mean, and these guys were good at their jobs. Like they built, you know, they worked everywhere in Oregon, Washington, blah, blah, blah. And they'd get no big contracts for like Fred Myers. You know what I mean? And they, they made tons of money. This shop that we had on our property had these huge boats in them. And occasionally, you know, if we got to sneak away, you know nobody's watching because you know the property's big they can't watch you all the time we play like hide and go seek and you know i'd hide in these boats and you know super expensive

boats but i mean just tons of money so he started he started kicking people out or finding reasons to like get rid of people but it seemed like he got spooked because he really didn't want anybody around after that point so you know just people were getting kicked out left and right people were leaving left and right because he started like ramping it up one of the last things i remember happening was um he called everybody into church and he said that everybody you know he's he's just screaming at everybody and he said you know everybody's you're you're all you're not worth anything you're all blah blah blah blah blah blah he said everybody has to has to get punished so every single person except for the lady that we called the grandma but she was like

90, you know, 80 years old, something like that, maybe younger. And she's the only one that didn't get beat, because she probably would have died. But he had everybody come up and beat everybody else. So like kids, women, children. So you're just watching everybody get beat. And he would, he was screaming at you the whole time you're getting beat. And he would say, he would say, because some people tried not to cry. He said, beat him until they cry.

And then obviously, you know, the kids were like, done so you know they just started you know crying right away but then he happened to have him beat you longer because he knew you were faking it and and and that went on for for a hot minute and there's this one guy this one guy he was getting his ass beat by the pastor actually and you know to a point to where people were like okay let's you know that's probably like enough yeah and the guy said the guy turned around and told him to do it some more like this guy was he was a weirdo everybody thought he was weirdo even even in a weird situation this guy was a weird yeah yeah so that happened he started kicking everybody out we left and it was our turn to leave and um at that point you're you're almost kind

of hoping to leave i remember he tried to kick everybody out all at once and he called this meeting we had this huge like warehouse um off off side of the properties and he called this meeting and he basically told everybody he was kicking them all out. And, you know, we were there to like two in the morning or something. And I'm laying on a pallet in the, in the warehouse, on the warehouse floor. And I'm just listening to all the adults, you know, basically plead their case, tell them how sorry they were, you know, you know, they'll do better, you know, all that stuff. And I just remember thinking, man, you know, as bad as the world's supposed to be, the outside world, I was like, I can't, you just kind of don't care anymore. You know, I was just like, just roll, baby, you know, roll those dice. But, uh, uh, anyways, I just remember I'm thinking, you know, what do you, stop, stop, you know,

pleading your case basically. I was just, you know, uh, and so anyways, he said, okay, you guys can stay. That lasted a couple weeks maybe. And then he just started kicking people out one by one, you know, this family goes, this family goes, this family goes. And so when it was our turn to leave and, you know, I talk all that shit about being like, You know, just roll the dice. But when it was our turn to leave by, I was actually pretty scary.

Well, yeah, because you guys don't know anything else. Oh, yeah. You had no money, right? Zero, yeah. So what did you guys do? So what we did is... And it was you, your mom, your dad, and all nine siblings? Nine kids, yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So she called her parents, kicked us out. We had to leave that day. He bought bus tickets. He... And we didn't get our possessions. Well, we kind of did, but by her possessions.

that's close. It's not money. It's closed. My dad didn't get tools. He's a construction worker. He didn't get his tools, nothing like that. Um, so my mom called her mom. Her mom hadn't talked to her in 20 years. So, you know, she's crying. Her mom's crying. But then her mom goes, doesn't know how many grandkids she had. She goes, there's 11 of you. She, she goes, well, you can't stay with me. Right. And can't fit you all. Right. So my dad called his sister, who my aunt Marcia, who I got, I got, I got, lot of love for her because she had a two or three bedroom trailer and she said everybody can come live with me so she had it was her Alger my cousin Popeye my cousin Matthew so them four

and then 11 of us in a three bedroom trailer so we're like lined up like sardines laying on the and he bought us bus tickets to go to Klamath Falls, Oregon and so we get on this bus and before we left this guy brought or clothes like bags and bags of clothes my dad just threw him away he's like i'm like i can't take all those on a bus you know what i mean so but again it's nothing helpful it's not that my mom had a baby no diapers no formula no money no tool nothing you know nothing helpful so throws that away we get up to to climate falls and then uh there was there was some you know like black people in the church and but you that one of the good things about it is that one of the good things about it is I didn't I legitimately didn't like think anything of like the color of people's skin because

we were all just the same and my my dad's half black and but he's really really light skin and so he gets to he gets to Oregon and this this black lady comes up and hugs him and you know I I didn't like I didn't think obviously I knew like people were like white and black but I didn't think any yeah anything beyond that but I just remember thinking huh but like who's you know black lady hugging my dad and I didn't think they were related because even though like I didn't know my dad was half black until X amount of time because it just that wasn't important at the time yeah and then he was like oh this is my sister Marcia you know and so we we go and live with her and um stayed in her place for a couple months and I mean this lady is saying I hate having like two people at

my house right and you know she just let us live there until my dad asked the people on the trailer next door to her if he you know if he fixed that up because it was in shambles if you know we could stay there and then you know he started paying rent and how he got a job is he just walked down the street basically until he found people they were doing construction okay he told the boss you know something like he said you know you know can i work for you he goes um you know let me work today give me some tools let me work today if you don't like my work you know you got free labor he goes if you do you know hire me on so you know the guy hired him obviously because he's good at his job And so, you know, we're living in this trailer.

I think it was a two-bedroom trailer. Yeah, two-bedroom trailer. And it didn't have floorboards or anything. So, you know, I remember I was, like, using the bathroom. And my brother came in and he's like, when are you going to be done? I was like, yeah, it's going to be a minute. So he just pisses through the floor because there's no, you know, floorboards. But anyways, you know, that was at life for a little bit.

And the transition into that was rough because, you know, you don't know anything. I don't know anything about sports. I don't know anything about skateboards. I don't know anything about if you want to talk about farm, farms, like farm wife. And if you want to talk about the Bible, I got you. Other than that, good luck. So, you know, I'm just, when I get around other kids, I'm watching everything, but I'm bullshit. Anything that you could have asked me anything, and I'd just go along with it because I didn't know one way or the other.

So, and obviously I didn't tell anybody, you know, where I came from. So I'd make stuff up. They'd be like, oh, where are you from? to be like Washington. Like I'm from Washington. I was like I was only there for like three days. I'm actually from California. You know what I mean?

Something like that. So yeah, that transition was was pretty, pretty interesting. But you know, you just kind of learn on your feet. You know, you're pretty weird at first. Some, you know, I got bullied for maybe. I mean, it wasn't long. It was like a month, two months, something like that. And I saw these kids getting a fight.

And I remember the kid that won the fight. everybody was like, you know, just giving him respect. And I was like, oh, I was like, okay, so. That's how we are in respect. Yeah, yeah. So I remember, this is a gun to loom, but I liked, I was still kind of getting bullied, but this kid, this girl that I had a crush on, he, you know, was like, oh, I'm going to ask her out or something like that.

And I was like, I need to stop this. So I spread a rumor that he was gay. and again I got nothing against Gabe you know I was a stupid kid and so obviously it got back to him and he comes back and he's like I heard you said and he goes and then so he started you know picking on me I was like let's just let's just throw him and so we did that I won and everybody was like given you know obviously was giving me that same respect I saw and you know that comes with his own thing other people want to you know fight you and all that but um but I decided, you know, then I was like, oh, I'm a stand up for myself and kind of translated into bullying

for a little bit, which, you know, I'm not, I'm not proud of it all. I'm very ashamed of the short stint of bullying that I had. And what kind of kicked me out of that was there was, we didn't have nice clothes at all. And, you know, people would always say stuff about my clothes. And I, like, Yeah, I was like, yeah, they fucking suck, you know. But when guys did it, I, you know, I just kind of like took it. But this girl just said something about it. And I remember thinking, who the fuck are you to like? And the reason, like, so I was like mean to her.

And I like processed this because the principal told me one day he said, you know, you're being mean to that girl. You need to stop this. And, you know, I was a young, but it's a terrible thing to do. and I remember thinking like you know it's her fault but then I was thinking why is it her fault because she said this to me and I was like yeah but everybody says that to me so why do I why do I hate her for saying that to me and it's like I was thinking it's because she's a girl and then I was thinking why is that such a problem and I realized it's because in the church like Tom hated women and women were

like they were you know second-rate citizens and so I was like how dare this person that is supposed to be below me in stature like say anything to me negatively and I was like well that's kind of fucked up I was like that's not a good reason to not like her so I quit I literally just stopped I didn't apologize to her but I stopped never said a mean thing to her again and I purposely tried not to you know maybe successfully maybe unsuccessfully I tried to not be mean to people unless I felt like they really deserved it and that led to you know me getting involved and you know with people that were also and you know drugs and stuff like that and I did that until I was you know oh was my first application and then started hanging

out and I got nothing bad to say about my friends at the time because they um you you had a guy on he was a sweetheart man a big old country boy was in Tracy I want to say Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was listening to that. That guy's a sweetheart. And he, I mean, he basically said the same thing. He got in with the wrong crowd. And, but they weren't bad kids.

They just also came from bad things. So this is how they're, this is how they're living. Anyway, yeah, so I made friends with these people. They're great people. Some of them are so, you know, my, my very good friends to this day. And, um, started getting a lot of trouble, you know, people are selling drugs, people are doing this, blah, blah, blah. ended up getting into a street fight one night with somebody that was older than me.

And how it happened is it kind of got set up because this person, you know, called this girl I was with and, you know, was a mouthing off her. And I said, who was that? And, you know, because she's like, and she said what his name was. And it was somebody me and my friends didn't like. So I said, I said, call him back. Yeah. And so, you know, we're talking shit.

And I said, you do it. stop talking i said just made me somewhere so we we do that and he said too he said i'm gonna kill you and i'll think you're gonna you know so we get there and we get to it and you know i'm getting the i had the upper hand and i like look away for for a second and i realized i covered in blood this dude stabbed me a couple of times and i was like god damn it and um so i'll i'll skip you know the the majority of that but you know i went back I went back to the truck And you know

I knocked him down and went back to the truck And I told somebody I was with I said that you know I was like that motherfucker just sat me And they're like what? And so they go over there And you know he They like confronted him

You know for like a second And I saw him like take off And one of the dudes jumps back in the truck And he goes And you know I'm covered in blood The seat's covered in blood And I'm like holding my my arm against my stomach like that.

And the girl I'm west, she's freaking out. And then the other guy, one of the guys that was with me, he goes, son of a bitch, she stabbed me too. He looks down to his chest. He got stabbed right above his heart. Jeez. So, but anyways, so, you know, go to the hospital, whatever. And, yeah, so went to the hospital, get fixed up. And the next day, you know, I went home the next day.

and I felt like shit. But I also like I went to get up and you know how like I twitch in my sleep. And so I, you know, twitched in my sleep and my bicept tendon tore because I got stabbed in the arm. And so I was like, oh, damn it. So I went back to the hospital because I was like, hey, my arm, you know, my arm ain't working right. And they were like, oh yeah, you tore your biceptainant. And they were looking at me and they were like, you don't look so good. I said, I don't feel so good.

And so they said, you might be going septic. And I was. So they kept me in the hospital for like two or three weeks and kept me on antibiotics. And, or you know, intravenous antibiotics. And that whole time, I got, you know what a morphine drip is? I was getting a morphine drip. And I was hammering that thing. Like it was a video game.

Like, that was amazing. And they gave me how was, this was 2006. Because I turned 17 in the hospital and the nurses like made me, they brought me a cake. and so I was 16 turned 17, 2006, and so you know, you could still get a lot of pain pills if the situation called for it. But while I was in there, you know, whether it's because I was like, you know,

just how is it coy or whatever it was. You know, I just started thinking, I was like, this is stupid. Like, you know, I'm sitting in the hospital. I think it's mostly because I was bored too. Like I couldn't get at it out of a hospital bed. So I was like, this is like, I don't like this.

I was like, why do I do the things I do? You know, where am I going? You know, that type of stuff. Am I going to be doing this like when I'm older? And, you know, I had those thoughts that was like the initial like spark to, you know, do something different. But obviously I didn't change that day. Can't change every night. No.

And I, yeah, and I didn't. And so what I did start doing though was I loved drugs at the time. and I know I'm not condoning them at all, but at the time, I love the effect of them. I loved getting high. I hated the downside of them, but it was wonderful. And, I mean, I had so many pain pills. And were you still living in the trailer with your whole family? No, no.

Sorry, I skipped apart just because I thought, you know, this kind of irrelevant, but I guess it is relevant. But no, my parents got divorced soon after. We were in the trailer. We bought a house. mom maybe like a year later because you know my dad was working and all that and then my parents got divorced and then 16 where was i doing where was i living so i bounced between like my dad's and mom's house okay and my friend's house my best friend at the time skyler i live with him and they were like

native american this native american family and uh that's i basically lived with him from you know 16 18 maybe even 15 but if i was at my parents house a couple nights a week like at my dad's house when you lived at my dad's house there was hardly any food my stepmom was crazy crazy and uh there was there was only so many beds so me and my two brothers were there and then sometimes my cousins would come up from california and live in yeah so the first people to get to the house if there was food they got to eat it and they and they picked the bed yeah so if you got to the house late you might as well not even be there because you're going to sleep on the floor.

And I'm terrified of spiders, like terrified of spiders. And there were spiders all over that house. So I'm not sleeping on the floor. So, you know, I'd stay at my friend Skyler's house all the time. And I'm assuming your family never talked to the name is Tom. Oh, yeah, yeah. So after they left, probably like a year after they left, he called him back and asked him if they wanted to come back.

He said, you know, you want to come back and be a family again. And I remember just thinking, hell no like absolutely not fortunately my mom you know my mom said no and you know then immediately he started screaming at her as soon as she said because I could hear it on the phone started screaming at her and it's like yeah and I was like good thing you said no and so and then he died soon after that Tom Tom yeah and what happened to his church just that so that had completely dissolved he soon after you guys soon after we left everybody left that was like the year 2000 and do you know what he did

after? Oh, he had so much money. So he had all of our money. Okay. You know, the millions that was amassed. He had all the money, you know, lived wherever he lived. He had his wife with him. I think one guy stayed. One or two guys stayed. And the guy that stayed was the weird guy that told him to beat him some more. Right. And because you needed to have, I think, three or more people for something to count as a church. Like legally. Yeah. Or for tax reasons, whatever it was. And And so they were doing that. And then he called and tried to get everybody back and everybody, except for that one dude, told him no.

Did any of his children end up speaking out about anything? One of his grandkids got in touch with me after I made the podcast. Okay. And was talking to me. And, yeah, I mean, I've multiple people have, I'll stick on that for a second. But, you know, she basically talked to me, told me, you know, the daughter that he had done stuff to, you know, is. completely added the picture. She apologized on his behalf for everything.

And I was like, you know, you weren't there. Thank you. You know. But, you know, you weren't there. Don't feel, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's person wasn't exactly. Yeah. You know, and we had a good conversation and that was, that was cool. And then I talked to another couple people that the guy's wife, Tom's wife, the pastor's wife.

After he died, she, you know, kept all the money. and she went to somewhere on the coast, I want to say, Oregon Coast, and tried to basically start her own group unsuccessfully. And these people were telling me about her and how just what a terrible person she was in their community and stuff like that. And I had a chance because I interviewed a bunch of people to make the podcast. I had a chance to reach out to her, but I was like, you know, I kept it pretty professional with everybody that I was talking to,

you know, whether or not I remembered the things that they did. But I was like, I don't think I can keep it cool with her. You know, so I was like, I'm not even going to, I'm not even going to try. And, but as far as, like, people reaching out, that's, you know, the people that have reached out for that, you know, and I was still running and gunning on the side, but, you know, I was, I was working with my stepdad. And he's an amazing guy. He's, he's one of the people that really, really helped me at that age.

And his name's Tom Ely. You know, I love the guy to death. and no matter how bad I was and I was not a good kid like I'm not trying to pretend that I was he he saw what little good you know I did display and hung on to that and like tried to you know

bring the rest out of yeah exactly so I got a lot of love for that guy you know my friends did the same thing fortunately which is crazy for like teenagers to do but people around me that were you know trying to build me up and get me into trouble but also try to build me up yeah and none of them knew anything

about this. I didn't tell none of them knew about this. In fact, one of my friends who I've had for like 20-something years, uh, listened to my podcast like six months ago. And he was like, he's like, dude, you never told me about this? And I was like, yeah. But so I was working with him for a while living with my friend, living with my mom, living with my dad bouncing between everywhere. Um, and then one other thing that really made me want to like stop doing drugs because I'm not kidding you. I love, like if there is no negative effect to drugs, I'd still do them. And again, I'm not saying people should build your drugs.

I'm just saying my experience. And I, one of my friends, he was a Native American dude, and he would not drink, would not touch pills, would not do anything like that, because his mom died from alcoholism. And he, I mean, he was cool. Like, we used to box all the time. We played basketball. I was with this kid.

I, you know, I had a pretty tight group of friends. We were with each other every single day. And we all stayed at my friend Skyler's house. That's why I mean we partied together. We played sports together. We went to school together. You know, we, every, everything, we played video games together. And, you know, I love this guy.

And when he was 18, we talked him into Abnerabir. And I'm not kidding you. He completely changed after that. Like, I think he's homeless now. Or he was homeless and now he's locked up. And I guess he just spends, like, you know, I talked to somebody that was locked up with him recently. And they just said he just, he has his own, like, basically section of the jail because he just screams day and night. And, you know, he's just try to fight anybody that comes in sight.

He's just completely gone. And, but, I mean, that happened real fast. That happened quick, like, overnight. And so I just remember thinking, man, I can't let that be me. You know, I'm, I'm kind of rolling the dice every time I, do something especially because I love these things and I don't feel addicted to them and I can go like you know two weeks three weeks without them but when I get them I'm going to take them and uh so that also helped me like kick kick at you know everything I was like that this I'm not doing that um

so you know seeing my friend go through that changed my mind on like you know stay in the course on like on doing drugs and alcohol stuff like that and so I was pretty good for a while you know I I was 18. I ended up moving. I left there. That was one of the reasons I left there. I was like, if I stay here,

I'm just going to keep you in trouble, keep doing dumb shit. So I moved about four hours away to a town called Corvallis. And I was there for a couple years. My brother got me a job at working with kids that were incarcerated or, you know, like locked up.

And they had usually like a mental illness. You know, it wasn't juvie, but it was like a secure residential. treatment facility for adolescents. So I was working with them for a couple years. And, you know, I was like, this was, this was awesome because, like, you can be in a job where you, you know, do whatever, you crunch numbers or whatever. But when you're in a job where you, like, you feel like you're helping people, that's,

that's very rewarding. You know, it's very difficult because most of those people are very challenging individuals. And I mean, I was a challenging individual. So I was like, you know, I really, really tried to work hard there and really connect, you know, with the kids especially. Because, I mean, I was 18. A lot of them were 16, 17. Some of them were 18. One of them told me they were like, we're the same age.

I'm not going to listen to you. And I was like, you got a point. Right. And so I really enjoyed that for about two years. And I was doing all right. You know, it was a college town. It's OSU. So, you know, still partying a lot.

But I was not doing any drugs besides our efforts. call and for some reason I thought I was I was cured because of that and then all within like the span of a couple couple months my best friend Skyler died from cancer so I went you know up to the hospital you know we got to be there with him but he was young he was like 20 and yeah and so you know watched him watched him pass away and that was that was pretty terrible and his birthday was on Halloween. So we used to throw these fat parties on Halloween. And I'll get to that in a second. And while I was working at that place, this girl came through with the last name that I, I recognized. And it was some people that were in the church, in the group I was in. They adopted

this girl. And so, you know, obviously they still put her through similar things that, you know, I went through so she wasn't doing so hot and she ended up getting you know incarcerated at this place and she came through and I was like I know that name and then you know you get to see their parents name I was like yep that's that's you know her parents I know these people and then I won't get into that too much I wasn't allowed to work with her because I told that I told the people immediately I said you know I know who this is so because she was going to come to my program and I worked in max that's not max for kids but those kids get active let me tell you you. And so they sent her next door. So I'm seeing this kid every day just remembering, you know,

you know, so I'm thinking about stuff, you know, all the time. My friend just died. And so I'm like, I started drinking a little bit more. And again, you don't think you really got a problem with it at the time. But I'm trying to go out on like a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday night. Nobody wants to go to the bar. And I was like, and I had a fake idea at the time too. So, and nobody wanted to go out. Nobody wanted to You know, nobody's having house parties during the week. And so I just go out by myself. And I ended up getting in trouble, getting a DUI getting arrested, because I evaded pursuit and then, you know, took off on foot.

And then they got me, they found me out in the field because I, I'm going to leave that part out. But anyway, so I go to jail, you know, and they're talking to me. And it was around Halloween, so that's why I was like really, you know, because, you know, my friend just passed away. It was around his birthday, and we always, like, threw a party on his birthday. So I was like, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to, this is a good way to, you know, celebrate that. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, the cop asked me, he's like, you know, you got a fake ID, you know, what are you doing, you know, basically.

And I don't know why because I, you know, at the time I didn't like cops. I, you know, but, so normally I was just not going to say anything, but then I, you know, I said, well, my, my, you know, my friend just died, so, you know, I'm drinking. It's, I, I don't even think I said he died. No, I had to do. But I said, you know, it was a birthday. So, you know, I'm drinking for that. And he goes, what would your friend think of that? And I was like, you know, they, they were giving me a rough time out, out in the field. And I was like, man, I'd rather you guys just whooping my ass out in the field. I was like, why'd you have to say that? And, yeah, I really got to think that, and, you know, that's another time that clicked. And I was like, yeah, what the, you know, what am I doing? Like, you know, I gave up drugs, but I'm still drinking, you know, changing my, my life, but I'm not. You know, I'm still doing this shit. And so, so, yeah, I was like, you know, I'm going to do something different. And then when you get to do Y, they give you, like, a chance, if it's your first one,

they give you a chance to do a diversion and that basically will take it off your record. and you also have to be on like probation basically so they were hooking me up with like probation officers and you have to go to like a A.A. classes for like a year or something like that and they were hooking me up with you know probation people in the area and I was like actually I don't want to stay in the area you know I was like let me let me move um so I wanted to move to bend Oregon I don't know if you've heard of it but it's like a very outdoorsy place and I didn't know anybody so I was like I can't get in trouble yeah because I thought, you know, every time I got in trouble, I was like, if I move, I'll be good. If I move, I'll be good. I didn't realize I was just bringing it with me because, you know, because I'm not

working on myself. And so I went out there. That was actually cool because I spent so much time, like outdoors, like doing whatever. And, you know, I was going to these diversion classes, you know, where they tell you the harm in drugs. And I didn't say a single word during those diversion classes on purpose because I thought it was stupid. And I, you know, I passed, you know, the, obviously because I attended. I attended and I paid what I was supposed to pay. And, you know, I just remember stupid things from there. Like, um, one thing made me laugh was they, they had us, there was a list of like nine things and they were like, how many can you remember? Like, they show you the list and then you have to write down as many as you can remember. And then they said, they did this with a person that had been drinking alcohol and a person that was on like cocaine and a person that was smoking weed. The only person that wrote down nine things was the person smoking weed. He said, and none of them were the things that were on the list. And the person that was on the So I thought that was hilarious. Yeah. But anyway, so I went through that and I went to one AA class.

And, man, that was, in my opinion, that that was better for me than that whole diversion class because I just listened to it. And, you know, they started out. They said, you know, my name's so-and-so, and I'm an alcoholic and they got around to me. And I just said my name is that. I didn't say, I'm an alcoholic. I was like, because I'm not like you people. And I'm listening to these people, be like, I'm like, I'm. lost my house I lost my job my family doesn't talk me and all this stuff and that worked because

I remember thinking you know I don't I don't want any of that to be my life so you know I just kind of stopped doing you know really cut down on drinking and stuff and but I didn't go back to another a class even though I was supposed to so what I did is you get the guy's number and he's supposed to sign his name you get a sheet that with a number and they sign number signs to show you went every time. So what I did is he put his number down and he signed and I just put the number and signed every time after that turned it in and they took it. So I was like, okay. But, which, you know, I'm still rolling the dice with that. I could have gotten trouble and, you know, they could have, you know, revoked my whole thing. But then went from there, got into Brazilian jiu jitsu at the

time. And that's been, that was amazing. I love that. Good outlet. Oh, yeah, amazing. Like, and I don't I think everybody has to do jujitsu. You know, if you asked me that 10, 15 years ago, I would say everybody has to do it. It's the greatest thing ever. But I think everybody should at least have something. Like have their own thing. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. And so, I mean, that was amazing, you know, just for like being able to focus, being able to spend two hours, you know, an hour, just not thinking of anything else, but the person you're like, you know, going against. And, you know, really, really enjoyed it. And especially coming from, like, you know, teenage years where altercations were a huge part of, you know, grown up.

It just kind of taught you, like, you know, you don't need to do all that. You know, you don't need to do all that stuff. There's people out there that can beat your ass. And, you know, I, yeah, I really enjoy it. I still do it to this day. You know, I really enjoy it. And then I started working in mental health at the psychiatric hospital in Oregon. And, I mean, I could do a whole other.

you know, this thing about that and, you know, the good and the bad of that. Are you still doing that now? Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. So what is your role there? I mean, I've done lots of stuff. So my official role is like a rec specialist.

Okay. So you like run activities, but I mean, I've worked on the floor. You know, you're basically security. You're basically a babysitter. Okay. You know, observe and report all that. stuff but you know you build relationships you run activities you work with them on treatment you know all these things um but the majority of what i've done there since i got hired is i get pulled on to

these things called special assignments and that's where you go they take certain people they'd be like you know you work really well and you work really well so you guys are going to go work with this high profile or challenging patient and you were the only people that work with that patient um and you know, I can't say too much because of like HIPAA violations. But, you know, one guy killed a lot of people. Could be a serial killer. You know, that hasn't been, you know, that hasn't been solidified yet. But I worked with him for a long time, years.

And then another guy got pulled off to work with him for years. And, you know, he was, you know, the system, the prison system screwed him up. Again, I can't say too much. But they pretty much left him in solitary confinement. a person with mental illness until his, you know, brain broke. And, I mean, this guy would, from the moment he wakes up to the moment, he goes to sleep, is screaming in multiple voices, you know, and banging his head in the wall. And, you know, it's so bad he would, you know, because you watch him around the clock.

So bad, he would wake up, when he woke up to go pee, he'd start screaming at himself. Like, just constant, you know, mental torment. And, you know, in the, you know, in the. mental health there's people that that really need help and there's people that abuse the system. And like I said, I'll try not to get into that too much. But I'm like thinking of it because it's a big, it's a big part of it like mental health. But like if I get in, I'm telling you it'll be another hour and I don't think we have that time. So so the majority of the time that I've worked there, I've been on those like one to ones basically you would call them with those people. And there's been multiple of the people I've, you know, done that. with um but yeah so that's what i do there now and you know the system is the the system the mental health system it gets a lot of flack you know i always see you know especially because Portland

Portland has like this huge like homeless epidemic um and there's this guy Kevin Dahlgren I want to say he like he goes around and he films you know the homeless people so if you ever want to know about Portland homeless people watch this stuff and that'll give you a really good idea and you know people always say like, you know, where's the, where's the help for, you know, mental health and, you know, what a mental health worker is doing. And for the most part, they're correct, because there needs to be a lot more in health. There's a lot of money that goes into it. So that money needs to be, you know, spent, you know, correctly. But there are also a lot of resources, but they're just bogged down. Like, we're so backed up with, like, people that, you know, with like lists of

people that we need to get in and help out. And there's, you know, there's only so much you can do. like the people that work there, you know, the good ones, you ask a lot of them. You, they, you know, they get up if they work with you. They get you up. They, you know, make sure you're fed. They make sure you do your treatment. Make sure you take your meds. They're playing games.

They do the whole time. They're building a relationship with you. You know, they're doing all these things. And then you might assault one of them very badly. And that happens all the time. And then they're expected to tackle you, put your own. restraints, give you forced medication, which is usually an injection, then take you out of restraints, continue to work therapeutically with you, and then go take you to dinner. You know what I mean?

All in a day. And, you know, that's, and then, you know, other times, and there's people that are helped and can be helped, and, you know, that the system definitely works for them sometimes. And then there's some people that are just extremely challenging to work with. And you just don't know what to do meds don't work for them they're whether they're you know always trying to you know commit suicide and I've seen the most creative ways to do that you can even think of you think like if somebody killed themselves in hospital or in a prison how could you let that happen and it's like you know if you even look away for a second they're doing you know sometimes it seems pretty it's very difficult to stop or to deal with these kinds of people.

And then if you do use the restrictive measures that you need to to keep them from hurting themselves or others, then that's inhumane, which I do agree with. But I mean, at a certain point, what else can you do? And then you can't do these inhumane practices. And so you're just stuck in a cycle, you know? And it's terrible for them. It's terrible for the staff.

You know, it's not a good situation all around. And but there are people that can be helped. And a lot of people that have mental health issues are very decent people. You know, I work with a bunch of people that are criminals. You have to have some kind of crime to come where, and a mental illness to be where I'm at. You know, the bar for being, it's called civilly committed. That means you're so crazy you need to be put into a place. to assist you. The bar for that is incredibly high and that's another reason that, you know,

we don't have, you see people doing these terrible things and then getting assaulted or, you know, arrested is because maybe they went and tried to get help a hundred times before that, but they can't get the help they need because they haven't done anything bad enough to get help, but they're looking for help. And so, you know, I really try to help those people. And I mean, a lot of them have shitty lives. That's why they're, you know, that's why they do the thing they do. Yeah. And I know what it's like to have less than desirable life. And I know what it's like to not, you know, hear anything nice for years.

And, you know, a lot of these people, they either come from prison or off the streets or something. I guarantee they're not hearing, you know, nice things. So, you know, I try to, you know, do that for them at least. Yeah. So that's my work. That's what I'm currently doing. And then, you know, I have a daughter and she's absolutely amazing. How old is she?

She's four and a half. Oh. Yeah. And she. acts like she's 30. Uh-huh. I'm sure. That's how it is. Good luck. Yeah. And then what about your family? Do you have a relationship with all of your siblings? Yeah. So two of them, one just got out of prison, another one was in prison. The rest of them are doing very well.

And then your mom and dad? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I keep in contact. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say we're close just because, you know, my other brothers and sisters, this is just for me personally. They're closer with my parents. I have a much more difficult time. You know, being close, but I am very friendly with them. I call them. You know, they call me, you know, my mom watches my kid. Have you guys had that, like, open conversation about your childhood and how you were raised and everything? Absolutely not.

I won't. Okay. No, and that's just because that literally sounds so uncomfortable for me that I would literally, I'd rather do anything else. Okay. So you have not, with either your mom or dad, it just, you have not brought it up. No, well, I had to interview them to do that call. But again, I kept it like very professional. I might as well be a journalist talking to them.

Okay. I kept my everything out of it. I never. And they were fine with doing the interview. They didn't. Okay. Yeah. They were fine with it.

Obviously, they didn't want their name. Yeah. Have they ever? And it's hard because it's like I was going to say like have they apologized for anything? Yeah. Yeah. So I was going to say it's hard because like when you look back at it, they were just kids that were lost to, you know, and didn't have the best upbringing.

So it's like at the end of the day, even when you're a parent, it's like you are looked at and people want you to do your best. But you started at, you know, a different place too at one point. So it's like we're all, at the end of the day, we're all just human. It's like, you know. But what about your siblings? Have you talked to them about it or same kind of thing, just like an interview type of? Yeah, just in an interview type of way.

I mean, we laugh about stuff sometimes just because... It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. But, I mean, I would almost kind of do stand-up comedy in that group. And my older brothers would come, like, you know, listen to me, like, talk, just make fun of the people. And, like, the things they did, the things they said. Yeah. And, you know, we, like, laugh about that at times.

Oh, and then I'm going to church after. So I don't really mess with, like, church or Christianity anymore. You know, and I hadn't gone to church. for 10 some years. And then this girl I was saying wanted me to go to church with her. And I was like, I don't think you understand. I don't want to go to church. And so, but, you know, eventually, you know, she got me to go.

And, you know, I went and I remember hearing the guy talk. And I was like, this guy's teaching some bullshit. Like, because he's saying like, Jesus, you know, they forgive you for this and that. And I was like, no, he doesn't. I was like, you know, if you mess up, you mess up, you know, stuff like that. and I you know here I am you know 10 years later and I think what I was being taught as a kid was the right thing and that this guy what he's teaching is wrong but I yeah I didn't want anything to do with church but yeah I was going specifically just just for her and so so I stayed going and then I made friends pretty I've always been able thankfully to make really good friends so I made some friends there and I made some friends there and I made some friends there and I made some friends there. And then I started doing youth, like a youth group with him as like a youth leader. And I mean, they assumed that because I was going to church that I was Christian.

And I mean, I had just stepped back in the church after like a 10 year hiatus. And, you know, I will say I was pretending to be Christian, you know, to date this girl. And I, you know, I kind of thought the same thing my parents, like because when I talked to my dad back in the day or, you know, when I was interviewing, he was like you know the reason he stayed he was like um is because he was living a better life the people around him were good people he felt you know like he had a community and he was a Christian and everybody else was Christian so why not yeah and you know the church I was going to the people were they were great they were great great people and I was like man I was like this is this is probably how it's supposed to be and so you know I had no mind I had no problem staying I would say

I even like identified as a Christian for you know a couple years and the majority of white state is my friends even though I broke up with that girl or we broke up was the kids I was working too like I've always liked working and they were teenagers in high school I've always like working with people yeah and I mean you know I still talked to this day that was you know 10 years ago and one one just told me he got a job as a police officer the other one just got a job as firefighters and you know doing good but but yeah and then at a certain point you know, especially after they graduated, I kind of stopped. I checked out, you know, I was still going and I was still helping a lot.

I helped with some kids that come from Spain, like an English immersion program. It would come from Spain, spend like, it was called Summer in the USA. They would spend a month of the summer in the U.S. learning English and, you know, hanging, you know, living in close families and stuff like that. And I would work with that organization and, you know, hang out the kids, take him to this camp. We took him to this camp that Wild Country documentary about the Rajneesh cult. They owned this compound, Eastern Oregon, right by where I used to live. And this company called Young Life bought that property, and they turned it into this summer camp for kids.

So we'd go out there and this is that old compound. But, I mean, it was like a total playground at that point. And yeah, so I did that. But then I was just like, you know, inside. it, yeah, this is one of the things that happen is the kids I worked with in Spain, we take them in this young life camp, and it's a Christian camp, and you have something called a cabin time. So you go and you sit down and you listen to this, you know, church service, basically.

And this is in between, you know, climbing, you know, going on a zip line and racing go-carts and, you know, all this fun stuff. Then you go and do that, and you have this cabin time, and the majority of those kids were atheists, were Catholic Catholic or atheist, but you know, they're teenagers. And, you know, they're asking questions about like, you know, this or that. And you somewhat, if you're going to do that, and I did that program with them for probably three or four years. You have to be, you've got to answer those questions. So, you know, I started thinking, why, you know, when they're asking, why do you believe this? Why do you think this happened?

Why does this happen? You know, then I'd have to give them answers. I just felt like a lot of answers. And I did a lot of, like, research and, like, listening to people. And, you know, I was looking at the answers, you know, biblical scholars would give for these. And then I try to, you know, convey that to the, and I just thought, I was like, man, this is not stuff that I believe. I was like, these answers kind of sound like a bunch of BS. And, you know, that's my personal thing.

I think there's a lot of good in Christianity. I think there's some bad in it, too. Yeah, absolutely. And anything, honestly. Yeah, right. yeah and I'm I just personally I just decided I was like man yeah I was like I don't believe this and I don't I don't know why I'm trying to get these kids to believe in it it's because I'm working or not and I wasn't even working I was volunteering I was like you know I think too it seems like your purpose is more so

to help these kids rather than help them and teach them a religion and I think that that's kind of hard to do when you don't have a great foundation or understanding of that either. Right. You know, like, I feel like you can help people more based on the experiences you went through versus, like, the religious aspect, you know? Yeah. Yeah, and that's very true. And that's basically what I did is it was exactly that.

I kind of left the religious aspect out of it, but it just put a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah. Like I was trying to convert people, and I didn't like that at all. I think too when it comes to religion and spirituality or anything for that matter. No one should be trying to convert or convince anybody. It should just be whatever you lean into is okay. And there's a lot of times you'll lean into one thing and then another thing. You know, it's just like do your thing.

You know, like there doesn't have to be these like clans or these groups or like just be a good person. It's my mindset on it. Before I forget, I wanted to ask you too, as far as like you're healing from everything that you went through, as a child, do you feel like you have addressed that within yourself? Like, have you done any type of, I guess, self-work or therapy or anything that you feel like has helped you kind of face those things? Because you did it. You experienced a lot of trauma and abuse and, you know, even just the isolation aspect of things.

It's like that takes a toll on the brain. Right. Correct. Yes and no. A lot of the work I've done, I guess, is just kind of talking myself. through things or like seeing making mistakes and learning from it which I'm fortunate to do because I know not everybody does that yeah I went to therapy one time and the therapy she was awesome she was great I just didn't feel like I was

gonna make any progress and everybody has different methods right yeah yeah your method might be like you might find that healing from helping people that have gone through similar traumas yeah which which I think is probably exactly what I'm doing you know like trying to help other people and help myself in the same way. Yeah, I was going to say, like, I feel like if you're a self-aware person and you can, you know, you're emotionally intelligent, you know what you're feeling, you know how things affect you, I feel like as long as you're aware of that and you're easy on yourself,

but you're still not just like completely brushing it under the rug. Yeah. It's like a constant work in progress. You know, there's no one fix for anything. You can go to therapy every single day and still stay in the same place. You know what I mean? It's not, there is no solution for, like one solution for anything. I think it's just a constant, you know, hold yourself accountable for things that you feel and, you know, figure out the best way to deal with it. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's, yeah, pretty much what I do. Again, I'm not bashing therapy at all. Yeah. I think that definitely works for people. I mean, it could have worked better for me. I didn't necessarily feel like I had a problem.

I do have a problem, like, like you said, with, you know, I think. the going so go in my childhood going so much time without talking to people I still just I feel like I'm an extrovert to you know the majority of the time but there's like times where I just I don't want to talk to anybody and it's not necessarily because I'm in a bad mood it's just because I feel like I need to actually like disengage and you know therapy might help with that I don't see it as a huge problem obviously the relationships I've had I'd see it as a problem, which is why I own therapy. That's something too that I think it's something you need to do in your own time.

You can't do it for somebody else. Right. You know, I think you have to be in a place where if it gets to a point where you're like, you know, this is affecting me or this is affecting someone that I care about, then that's something you step into again, maybe, you know? And once again, that's not to say that's the only option or solution. There's other outlets as well and things that you can dive into and figure out. But there's, they're not, you know, healing isn't limited.

linear and figuring out what works for you isn't either. And I think that that just sometimes takes time. You know, you have to be at that place to want to do that as well. Yeah. And what you said is 1,000% true. Like you have to do it for you, not for somebody else. And I mean, that's why I stopped getting in trouble. That's why I stopped doing drugs.

It is because I saw, like nobody asked me to. Yeah. But I wanted to because I saw where it was going. And I think, you know, not I think I know. if you're in any kind of like addiction like somebody like trying to to help you not that you shouldn't help people but or somebody trying to force you to quit is not going to work you have to want to quit so yeah you're correct right and that goes for anything relationships like you people can try to tell you they can educate you and give you advice all you want but it's not going to be until you want to make that change

that anything is going to change yeah but i think it's incredible i always love to hear when people give back and help in a way that took away from them as a child. I think that that's one of the best things you can do because no one gets it as much as somebody that's been through it. So I feel like the fact that you have those different experiences and you can relate to these troubled children, you know, and kind of be there as that support that at a time you didn't have is really powerful. And I feel like it is something that will always make you feel so fulfilled.

Right. Yeah. Which is important. Yeah. And it does. It definitely does. You know, if you, like I said, if you work in a job or you're, you know, crunching numbers or whatever, you don't feel the same fulfillment as when you're helping people. Absolutely. Well, you did incredible. Thank you. Of course. Do you want to check your notes? Was there anything else you wanted to include? Do you think you got it all? Let me see. I think, I'm pretty sure. I mean, I got it all. Yeah. I mean, I got it all.

Amazing. You really did a great job. upstairs.