We're All Insane - I Was The Other Woman…

Episode Date: October 18, 2026

Alicia Barr shares the story of her 4 year affair with a married man 30 years older than her, and the struggle to walk away from a relationship she couldn’t let go of. She opens up about ending the affair, healing through therapy, and how her experience inspired her book, More Than a Secret: How a Mistress Broke Free from Her Affair. Check Out Alicia:  → Website → Instagram → Facebook → TikTok → Substack  Sponsored By: → ZocDoc | Taking care of your health just got easier – start here with Zocdoc: https://zocdoc.com/insane #sponsored → Quince | Find the fall pieces you’ll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to https://quince.com.Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was We’re All Insane. → HERS | Ready to reach your goals? Visit https://forhers.com/insane to access personalized, affordable care for weight loss, hair, menopause, and more. On This Episode We Cover:  → 00:00:00 - Introduction → 00:02:34 - Why Did Alicia Feel Rushed to Live the American Dream? → 00:03:20 - Why Did Her Marriage Begin to Fall Apart? → 00:05:40 - How Did Their Friendship Begin? → 00:10:10 - Why Did the Church Get Involved? → 00:17:12 - How Did They Reconnect? → 00:19:44 - How Did Their Friendship Grow Closer? → 00:24:26 - When Did the Affair Begin? → 00:28:58 - How Did Her Divorce Happen? → 00:30:22 - Why Did She Fall in Love With Him? → 00:32:50 - When Did Alicia Hit Rock Bottom? → 00:41:22 - Why Was It So Hard to Leave the Affair? → 00:50:56 - How Did Her Niece Change Her Perspective? → 00:54:30 - What Finally Made Her End the Affair? → 00:56:36 - How Did Therapy Help Her Move Forward? → 01:03:14 - How Did Their Final Separation Affect Her? → 01:05:16 - How Did Their Final Goodbye Go? → 01:12:40 - Why Did He Tell Her Never to Contact Him Again? → 01:14:12 - Why Did Alicia Decide to Tell the Truth? → 01:17:00 - Why Did She Decide to Write a Book? → 01:18:30 - How Could Her Story Help Other Women? → 01:36:16 - What Hope Does She Have for Others?  Further Listening → I Cheated on My Pregnant Wife… With a ManMore We Are All Insane: → OFFICIAL MERCH NOW AVAILABLE - code INSANE10 gets you 10% off for a limited time → Join We’re All Insane Mailing List for EXCLUSIVE Content + Discounts  For early releases, uncensored videos and plenty of exclusive content please subscribe to the We Are All Insane subscription channel at https://wereallinsane.supportingcast.fm/. It's $5.99 a month and watchable on Apple and Android mobile apps, Roku TV, Apple TV and Amazon Fire. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, don't forget about We're All Insane Plus, where you can get access to bonus episodes and early releases on Fridays to every Sunday's episode. You can subscribe an app on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube, or visit we're all insane.com. Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low, no frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at no frills. I'll see a hold music not what you want to hear when a pipe dispersed in your basement is flooding that's why intact insurance answers two million claim calls per year within 20 seconds so instead of hearing this lovely track you'll hear this in seconds hello intact insurance my name is alicia bar and i girl i am from small town USA so you're pulling me out of my comfort zone i love it i love it i'm so happy to have you thank you thank you listen i just like i said i'm a small town girl with a big store

to tell, a story that I never thought I would live out, let alone share with the world. Yes. I like to tell people, I was raised right on God, gar up and straight. I haven't always lived right. I grew up in a small town in the Midwest, and with no lack of such a strong foundation of a moral and ethical compass. I grew up in church, the strong foundation of faith, loving Jesus, pursuing Jesus. And I'm certainly an exception to the rule. As you could say, I played sports, very avid, started out on an all-boys' tea ball team because I didn't want to pick flowers. I wanted to play ball. I was the tomboy, one of two girls. When I was 16, I quit sports to buy my first house, that was time to kick off my career.

By 17, I had bought my second house, remodeled it nights and weekends after school, in between school, anytime I could. It took six months to do it, but basically learned the ends and outs, the ebens and the floats from the crawl space to the roof. And the rest is history. Here I am 21 years later, and I've been flipping houses the entire. the entire time. 16 going on 17. I also was headed to Minnesota to visit my aunt and happened to be sent next to the lady that was a buyer for an all-natural grocery store going in. And so I wasn't even of age yet, but I borrowed $35,000 from a private individual to purchase 35 steers from Texas in an effort to supply that all-natural grocery store that was opening with beef. Within just a few months, nine of them died. No rhyme, no reason, had multiple vets, multiple labs involved, couldn't

couldn't identify it. And so I ended up selling the rest with full disclosure for pennies on the dollar, lost my hind in. And so worked my tail off to get that paid back. And so just from a very young age, I mean, I feel like I was born with that entrepreneurial spirit. Grinding. Grinding. When the going got tough, I got tougher, you know, not to say that, I mean, it was rough. But just pushing through that, fast forward a few years, very involved in church. I, my senior year of high school, going into my first year, I didn't really want to go to college. It was more to appease my parents. I just wanted to go to work. But I settled for getting a backup associate's degree. And when you're from a small town, it's the American dream, right? It's like you graduate high school. You either go to

college, you don't. You get married. You buy a property or buy a house. And you start having kiddos, right? And so I think I was in a hurry to live the American dream. I think everybody also just kind of longs for that. I think, too, it's something that it's shown to us in so many movies, and it's always like this perfect cookie cutter type of thing. And I think it's kind of like ingrained in us to be what you seek out. Yeah. Yeah. I 100% agree. I think I was also just in a hurry, you know, to live independently and get out of my parents' house. And so I met a guy. We were together for three years before we ever tied the knot, tied the knot, bought the property. and, you know, just going through the motions, you know, of life, right?

I mean, I'm very career-focused and my family lived nearby, and so very family-oriented, very, very into the church and serving and helping there. We, I guess, probably about seven years into the marriage, just felt a lot. I mean, it just seemed like distance was really growing. And so we decided, we agreed. I was ready to separate, but he wasn't. He resisted that. So I'm like, we agreed to go get, to go to a marriage counselor,

I met with the marriage counselor independently and then together, and we met with him together. He hit the nail on the head. I'm like, I could not have said it better, but he was like, I know what the problem is. And we're like, what? Not that a counselor ever to tell you what your problem is. But he's like, y'all make great roommates. I was like, spot on. This guy is spot on. I couldn't have said it better. Like, we do make great roommates. We never fought ever. But we were really just coexisting, you know, just going through the motions of life. and again, not really knowing any better, if you will, from small town USA. I mean, I grew up on a small farm, and so when I say we bought the property next door,

I mean, it was, you know, substantial amount to take care of. I mean, I always had a love and passion for raising beef cows, and we always usually had a horse or two around the farm, some pigs. I mean, you just never knew. It was just a small hobby farm, but I was raised with a really strong work ethic. And so it was just, like, again, between being involved in, heavily involved with family and making time for them, working around the farm. You know, church, we were very involved in church. He was, you know, employed full time. I've always been basically

essentially self-employed. And so all of our responsibilities is like, we're just going through emotions, not really knowing anything's off until about a year prior to our divorce. He started struggling with some erectile dysfunction. And so we both, we had talked about starting a family or trying to. I, with what I did for a living between the farm and between the flip houses, like, I mean, literally feel like I've spent more time in crawl spaces and addicts than I have in my own home. I'm like, I couldn't imagine being pregnant, but the part that I've always kind of wrestled with is like how I feel later in life, though, if I don't have a family in my own. You know, so like even though it wasn't like a hugely strong desire for me at the time,

I was willing because he really wanted kids. And so we had about probably a year and a half prior to the divorce. We had started trying to no avail. He was struggling with ED. And so went to the doctor. Everything checked out physically. I went to the doctor. Everything checked out physically. the doctor, everything checked out physically, and it's like, okay, just not in the cards for us, at least for now, it's fine, keep going through the motions. In the meantime, we're going back over a decade ago. We had some really close friendships that had developed with a couple and their family, had moved in from out of state, and they were in the horse industry. And this was, like, when I say friendships, I mean, like, this was like, we were like eight years deep into these

friendships as couples. They had kind of just bounced around a little bit, ended up, thought they were going back home to their home state, and so ended up selling their place on contract. And so they were, but they ended up deciding to come back to the state I was in. And so they had rented a couple different farms that just really hadn't shook out. And I mean, these folks were in our wedding. Like, we would do anything for them. Our families were close. We were super involved.

My sister and I, too, were super involved in their kids' lives and supporting them. And so the idea kind of arose is like, I literally don't think there was anything we wouldn't do for them. the idea arose to just build a boarding facility on our property with living quarters for them to live in, and then they would manage the boarding facility as well. And so essentially, you know, talked about it, prayed about it, talked to the family. They were, of course, on board, got the county's blessing, and we were off. And so we built this, this barn was nearly 30 foot tall, 3,000 square foot in the main level, 900 square foot living quarters above, and it's a football field little away from our house on our property. And Devor, it's like, I don't know if you've ever had any

similar experiences, but it's like, I mean, we had been friends for eight years. Like, I thought, this guy was like an older brother to me. About a 15-year age gap. His wife, I mean, it was, it was great. I mean, like, we had a lot of good times. And everybody comes, you know, everybody has their junk, right? Everybody has their dirt. Everybody, you know, not, we're not all dealt a fair hand our entire lives. And we have, there's dysfunction in our families and everything else. There was no exception there for any of us. But like you think you, I feel like what I can say now is you think you know somebody until they live in your backyard.

Oh, yeah. And then it was like, oh. The more time you spend with someone too, the more you start realizing I either really like you or really hate you. Yeah. I was just like, and I love these people. I love this family. And so in the meantime, I was just the couple that was living there, right?

Two of their three kids. Okay. One was old enough to be out, but two of the three kids. and so in school and everything. And they're self-employed. I'm self-employed. My husband has a job. So, you know, we see each other a lot,

just in and out and around and everything. But I had went through a thing called life plan. It was like a two-day intensive of just one-on-one intensive. I went down near Nashville for it. And this gentleman basically would just like walk you through, like you would just walk through your entire life on paper essentially. And it was really a process of just looking back long enough, like looking in the review beer,

review me or excuse me, long enough to identify like what maybe caused some of the greatest falls? What triggered some of the biggest wins? You know, so as to like learn from that and be able to look forward and say, okay, I want to do more of ABC and less of DEF, right? And so I just, I came back with them that so fired up. I had never been through anything, you know, one-on-one, so intense two days, like it was just a really cool experience for me. Learned a lot of things about why I'd done and what I had done. And so I came back, fired up. So long story short, everybody in my immediate family, my mom and dad said, I had an aunt and all went through life plan at, you know, at their own time.

And then I referred to him as John Boy. John Boy ends up going through. And he calls me after the first day. And I can tell him that it's just so like, and let me just tell you there is only one John Boy in this world. Do you even know the Waltons of the movie? Oh, okay. I didn't even get to the correlation, but it's fine. Anyway, John Boy, I mean, he just down home, Southern Boy, good as gold. It doesn't matter what's going on in life. I mean, the freaking entire field and barn could be on fire, and you ask him how he is, oh, it's good.

You know what I mean? Just that kind of guy, right? And so he goes through, he calls me up the first night, and he's so excited. Like, he's so excited. He's got another day to go through. So then I was excited for them, because I'm like, they did. They really did come from some very, some deep wounds and broken homes. And so he comes back and we talked to Jenny, his wife.

And what we had discovered, well, I had discovered, or my husband and I at the time, is there was some major dysfunction. and once they moved in and we started to see this. And so I was like so thrilled that she was open to the possibility of going. Like both of them individually and then collectively they are going to be able to heal from some of these wounds in the past, some wounds that they didn't even create. You know what I mean? And be able to live healthier, happier lives moving forward. And within four days of her departure for a life plan, she deflected.

She ran to the church that I had been attending for nearly 20 years and created a huge huge monster over John Boy and I's friendship. I feel like we all tend to have that one thing on our to-do list that we just keep pushing aside. We keep putting it to the end of our list. And for me personally, that is booking my doctor's appointments. And I don't know about you guys, but the actual worst thing ever is when you have to find a new doctor and you have to do all this research to see who takes your insurance, making new appointments that take months on end to book.

And it's just one of those things that you have no idea where to even start. So like I said, it just gets swept under the rub. and push to do later. And that is why this episode is sponsored by Zoc Doc, because they make this process a whole lot easier and a whole lot faster. Taking care of our health should not be complicated. It should be easy. It should be something that we want to do that we're excited for. And Zoc Doc makes this possible to help us book the right doctor quickly. Zoc Doc has over 150,000 providers with over 200 different specialties so you can find exactly what you're looking for. And they are across all 50 states. So you can actually compare local and network doctors and find

exactly who is the right match for you. And something that I personally love that is very important to me is that Zoc Doc has real patient reviews. So you can look through these doctors' profiles. They're super detailed and you can feel really confident in who you're choosing. Head to Zococ.com slash insane to get started and check that appointment off your to-do list. That's ZOC, doc.com slash insane. I don't know about you guys, but I feel like every change of season, especially in the fall,

I find myself going through my closet and realizing I have so many. clothes, but I always tend to pick out the same things and wear the same things over and over again. For example, that sweater that you always reach for, those one pair of jeans that just fit perfectly, unlike any of the other pairs, the bag that you just pick up and you don't even think about it. Those are usually my favorite staple pieces and the things that are just easy to throw with anything. And obviously the best pieces for fall because that's when we're layering all our different clothing. And that is honestly what I love about Quinn's. I find myself wearing their pieces all the time. they have amazing basics that I just find myself gravitating towards layering and absolutely loving.

They make elevated basics using amazing material like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim without making things way too expensive. And like I mentioned, as we're getting into fall, I love the idea of just knowing that I have some really good staple pieces in my closet that I can just layer with pretty much anything and it's good quality and I know I'll look cute. One of my favorite things are their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, and they literally are just starting at $50, which is insane when you think about the quality. And when you think about you get to look cute and stay warm, all fall and kind of into winter. So find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince.

Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard of, about them, let them know it was we're all insane. It's the best way to support the show. And didn't say we had a favorite, didn't say we were doing that, but just created this huge monster kind of insinuating, if you will, or that if it hadn't happened, it would. And she never, like, said, like, talked to you about this. No, she ran to the church.

And so I think, you know, sometimes I think for some people, like, looking in the mirror is daunting. Like, and I think the closer that got to that, that day, you know, to the life plan, it just was too much, you know, and so she deflected. and she went and created another monster, you know. Yeah. And so, and made it about me and him. And at first I wasn't really too concerned. I was just like, these people at this church,

the leadership of this church, like, they know me. Like, I've been going here since I was just a little tight. And some people, to the point that I was a huge, became a huge day of Ramsey fan after I borrowed that money in high school and then had to pay it back. Like, I'm like, I mean, my parents, my sister and I did not want for anything. Let me be clear.

But it wasn't because my parents had a lot of money. It was because they borrowed from Peter to pay Paul. I didn't want to live that life. And there I was at 16, 17 years old, I already borrowed $35,000. You know what I mean? And so I came across, found Dave Ramsey, became a huge fan, and this gentleman that was facilitating a life plan had formerly worked for Dave. And so I trusted him. But I came across Dave Ramsey, went through Financial Peace University as a senior in high school. I became a coordinator for financial peace university classes. And so I had facilitated so many classes of this church, even took their elder board through it. Like, took, we did a

momentum, which was like trying to get 80% of the church to go through at one time. This was a church of probably 7, 800 people. Like, I was so involved in serving and helping in this church, some people probably thought I was on payroll. Like, that's how closely I worked with these leaders. And I'm like, so when she first ran and created this monster, I mean, yeah, I was shocked, but at the same time I really wasn't that concerned, but it didn't take long to become concerned.

Because rather than holding her accountable to, like, what's really going on here and trying to get to the root of that. They basically coddled her, castrated John Boy, and gave him no support whatsoever. And so I, long story short, comes to like a final meeting with the senior pastor, met with my husband and I, and he was apologizing because he felt like it was handled wrong. And I appreciated that. I'm like, but do you not believe the 12-stepers definition of insanity, like doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result? And he's like, no, not completely and my heart sunk because it was like that's what they did they told her to get back another small group we're going to we want you to do this Bible study and we want you to see this

volunteer counselor you know I mean like the same thing that she had done for years and yet here we are and there's still this something major is here you know and so it was like it was one of the saddest days of my life because it was like the church the very body that's supposed to help us and empower us and like you know help us heal and and be the best version of ourselves that we can be to serve Christ is like crippling this family, this family that I love, you know. And what was your husband at the time saying? Oh, he was, I think he was a very passive guy, but he was just like, I don't, like, he's just confused. Like, I don't get it. And like when I, I would talk to him, like, do you have any concerns about John Boy and I? Not at all. Like,

he even told the leaders that were kind of, quote unquote, handling our situation at the church, when she took this to the church, he even told them that. Like, I have no fear. I have no concerns. Right. There's no red flags for me. Like, he was. saying that. And so it just, it was just heartbreak. It was heart-wrenching. And so long story short, within six, so this brand new barns built with living quarters within six months of moving in, they were moving out. And John Boy is just that guy that he, he's very passive, you know, and this is what the church said, and so this is what I got to do, you know, whether he believed or agreed with it or not. He just went with it. And so they moved out. So I was devastated.

It took about a year probably. I mean, it's not that I was over it, but I felt like, I was like, I really, really struggled. And my parents and I and my husband ended up leaving the church, that particular church. And so now we have this massive reminder of this failed business endeavor in my backyard. And it was, I guess, circa, I don't know, about a decade ago, a little over a decade ago. I lived three miles from a racetrack. And so I started going to like association meetings and started posting flyers and just like, what in the world are we going to do with this?

you know, like that guy ended up just basically reimbursing John Boy and Jenny for what they had invested in in the construction, you know, which was significant for us at the time to do that, not expecting to do that. And so it was just like, can we rent it? Like what can we do? This is our dream property. Never wanted to leave it. So it's like, what do we do? A gentleman at one of the association meetings said, hey, give this guy a call. I think he might have interest. I reach out to him. And at first he was like, no, I mean, we've got another place rented. I think we're in good shape right now. And like a week later, he reaches back out. And he's like, hey, actually, I had some more owners, you know, come in, and my wife and I would be interested in taking a look. And so this place is brand new. Like, I've got it looking at immaculate.

Like, your first impression is your last impression, right? And so, and of course, my husband's at work, so I'm handling this. And so they pull in, very classy, very clean cut. They walk in together, and they look around and really seem to like it, other than he felt like the stalls were a little smaller than he would like. But he's like, okay, we'll talk about it and get back to you. Short time later, it wasn't. them same day. I mean, they call wanting to sign the lease. I'm like, perfect. And so that first year, like, I wasn't involved in, like, yeah, the track was three miles away, but I do real estate

for a living. And I raised cattle, right? Like, so I had no, I mean, John Boy and Jenny were in that industry, but I didn't really get heavily involved in their work at all. And so, like, we would pass each other going and coming or whatever and say hello. And if he had any issues at all with the barn, you know, I get those corrected. But that first year, but then they started to invite us to, you know, And so we'd go. And then it seemed like I was going to every race and my husband would go and he could. And they, when they moved in and started renting the barn, they, you know, shared that they were in the process because they weren't from that state. They were from out of state. That they were in process of building their own facility, a massive facility. And so learning what I did

for a living, it was like, oh, you've got contractors, you've got contacts locally. Like this could be, you know, and so I end up just, we just formed a fast friendship, just a really fast friendship. And so I ended up getting some of my guys over there, finished the living quarters on their facility, and some even did some work in the barn. So the first six months, it was great. Like it was like these, you know, as couples even, like my husband would go to work, but he'd be around the evenings, weekends. And I'd refer to her as Mary.

Mary and I would go to the box stores and do the shopping. And Mav, he really despised construction, didn't enjoy that, which was not his jam. So he would come in and roll in and give us a hard time for a minute, but then he'd find any way to just skip out, you know, and we'd take care of the work. And so the first six months, it was like all of us. But then after that, once the construction project was complete, it was like, at that point, we had developed an interest in the racehorses. And it was like we were talking around the idea of buying some horses together.

And so ended up doing that. And then it was like, well, we're going to buy horses together. I don't know how familiar you are with the race horses, but, you know, you pay a training bill. So he and I basically just ended up agreeing to, hey, we'll just kind of swap labor, if you will. So I would do some work, haul some horses for him and do some work around the farm and stuff in exchange for him training, them training. It seemed to work great. And about a year into our friendship and newfound friendship, about six months into becoming partners, if you will, he started voicing to me that his wife was voicing some jealousy about me. Here we go again.

Here we go. That's right. And I was like, oh, my God. are you kidding me? Like this couple, like, he's 30 years older than me. I'm like, am I doomed? Like, I know I showed in the very beginning how my parents put me on an all-boys teabal team because I wanted to play ball and not pick flowers. Like, I've always been to guys go. Growing up on a small farm, growing up, working on houses, like, I just live in a man's world. That's not, you know, and at that point, when he shared that, it felt like it was like a curse.

Like, it felt like it was a curse the way God designed me in like the interest that I have. You I mean. And so I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Like we've got these horses together. And I'm like, I'm having the time of my life, by the way, like, you know, this new hobby and new friends. And it wasn't anything that she was sharing with me. It was behind closed doors with him. And then he started. And the difference, Devorre, between Mav and Jamboy and Jamboy was their personalities. I mentioned earlier, John Boy was very passive. Mav was very dominant, very Taipei, very proactive, just like me. And so the louder she screamed, the harder she fought behind closed doors, the tighter he held on to me. Like, at that point, nothing had been done wrong,

and he wasn't going to stand for it. That was her issue, and she needed to work through it. You know, it was kind of the attitude until we crossed the line. I feel like so many of us have a wake-go in mind, but actually getting there can be really, really difficult and challenging, especially when we don't know where to start. You know, we make all these lifestyle changes, these diet changes, and we can feel like we're starting to make progress and then eventually start to notice that we're plateauing or we feel like we are right back to where we started. Weight loss by hers provides access to a range of FDA approved GLP1 medications, such as the Wagovi pill and the Wagovy Pen. And the best part is that hers does not stop there.

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important safety information, will go be clinical study information and restrictions. Visit ForHERS.com. I've never had anybody fight so hard for me. Like, and probably because nobody's ever needed to or had to. Yeah. But because he was so adamant that there was nothing wrong here. And this was a partnership and a friendship that was serving everybody and this was a win. Like he wasn't, he wasn't backing down. And they didn't, they weren't in the church. They didn't go to church. You know, like, so there's nobody necessarily for her to run to in this situation. But basically, like I said, the ladder she screamed, the harder she bought, the tighter he held on until we crossed the line. And that began a four-year affair with a man 30 years older than me.

And you were still with your husband? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. About a year. we, about the year that we met Mab and Mary, when they rented our barn for the first time. That's kind of when we were trying to conceive. And that didn't happen. And that's when we started going to the doctors. And I feel like after that, if we found out both of us were good,

that's where some of the distance just really started especially growing. I honestly don't think I ever knew what love was. Like I think I was young, naive, in a hurry to live that American dream. And so I married. You know, again, just coexisting, going through the motions, not really knowing any better or that anything else was out there.

And I'm assuming having the mindset of I should make this work. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The night or was it the night before, a couple nights before the wedding, I was, something had happened, you know how it goes when weddings come close. Something had happened with his family where somebody wasn't going to show up with a rehearsal dinner, like things were spiraling or the rehearsal. And he had a set of boundary.

This is what he'd been working on for three years, and it liked to kill him to set that battery. And I'll never forget it. I was sitting in the truck. One of my aunts was sitting in the truck with me, and she was, because he was spiraling. Like, he went out to chop firewood by hand just because he was spiraling. And this is a couple nights before our wedding. And she was like, are you ready for this for the rest of your life? And Devorah, I can sit here and say now, like, I so vividly remember being so clear in my mind, in my heart.

the answer was absolutely not, no, but I couldn't bring myself to say it out loud. Yeah. I'm not even sure that I answered her because my family, he'd been in my life for three years. Like my family was invested at this point, right, wrong or indifferent. He had moved to my parents' basement because his family didn't live locally. You know what I mean? Like, at the time, I was so naive to think that I can't do this to my family. I can't back out.

Yeah. I can't back out. Well, I think too, like, not that it's one of two things, but I think there's people that almost would look at something and be like, oh, I can always find better and they'll like constantly jump from person to person, like trying to find this like perfect mold. And then I think that from your upbringing, it was the kind of thing as like even if your gut and your heart was telling you, I don't want this, you weren't, I don't think you were

really given the knowledge to be like, oh, there might be better out there. Or like, let me listen to this feeling and not try to make this relationship work. You know? So I feel like you weren't, it's almost like you weren't taught to like listen to a gut. feeling. Yeah, yeah. Or like, or do you just stay, and I'm not blaming anybody, I hope you don't hear that, but like, or do you just stay quiet and just continue through the motions to not cause a ruckus? You know what I mean? And so, anyway, I regret that. I regret that. And I tell people now, I tell women now, it's like, gosh, if you have any inclination at all that this isn't right,

like, stop, have the courage to stop, have the courage to break those hearts now before you're a decade in and have kids or two decades in. You know what? mean, like, it's not worth it. And a lot of people have the fear of starting over, too. Sure. Which I think is why a lot of people tend to say or fear of being alone, whatever it might be. I think it just comes from that. Sure. Yeah. So the year that, the year that Mav and Marion started rent in our barn, that's when we were kind of trying to conceive. And then the ED happened. Doctors check out. I mean, like, we're just coexisting. Growing through emotions. I had kind of started mentioning separation or plausible leave doors. He wasn't, he wasn't open to it. Like, he resisted that very

strongly. So by the time that Mav and I crossed the line, and I, this, please, I make this very clear everywhere, is that I take, I was wrong. I take full ownership of what I did. So I don't want to ever sound or come across as a victim. With that said, two things can be true is we were basically, I mean, he was sleeping in a different room. Like we were, we were coexisting going through the motions, not more like roommates, not husband and wife. And so doesn't make what I did right, by any means. That was just the reality. And so it was, I don't know, It was late spring, early summer. We were supposed, we had a meeting set up.

He was supposed to come by the barn on a Sunday afternoon to talk about it. Because I was like, where are we going? Like, we're just, you know, what are we doing here? And so he was going to come back by on a Sunday and we were going to talk about it. And my husband is who I'm referring to. And I was in the bar on a Friday, a Friday or, yeah, early Saturday, one and the two. And he pops in and he's like, I'm good with it. Go ahead and file.

And I was like, I mean, I was pleasantly surprised. But I'm like, oh, okay. So we don't need a meet on Sunday. And he's like, no, you're good. Go ahead and file. So I file. And then like, come Monday, I file or whatever. And so our divorce was final about a year after my affair began.

Okay. Approximately. Gotcha. And then where did the other two stand? Matt and Mary? They were still married. Okay. Yeah.

And was he talking to you at all about what was going on with them? Oh, we talked all the time. I mean, like, this is somebody that, like, I mean, and we were also working very closely together, right? So, I mean, it's like we saw each other every day. We communicated 15 times a day or more. You know what I mean? And so, yeah, he was, yeah, it was, nothing had changed.

I mean, she was still voicing some jealousy. There was still some envy. How did you feel that they were still together? Like that you had gone through with a divorce and they were still? So as two things, they're as crazy as it is to say out loud today. When he and I crossed the line, we basically had the conversation of this is I help you, you help me.

Neither of us intended to get divorce at the time that we crossed the line, which is wild to me. And I would tell you also that I did not, I referred to him, my ex-husband as Dan, I did not divorce Dan for Mav. I divorced Dan because of Mav. Okay. Because this man took me to the moon and showed me all the stars. Like now I understood what society's hype was about, right? Like this thing I had never understood previously.

Now I understood. And I'm like, this is so confusing to me. He definitely doesn't have ED. And he's 30 years older. Good Lord. Yeah. Yeah. So I, did I answer both questions?

Was that it? I think so. Well, no, no. I asked how, well, I guess kind of. So when it started the affair, would you say it was purely like sexual? You didn't have feelings yet? Or do you think you might have? Okay.

So I moved into a new house, and if you've ever done that, you know the air feels a little off at first. Between new paint, new furniture, funky old vents, who even knows what you're actually breathing in? That's why I got Jasper and I am absolutely obsessed. It's a medical grade air scrubber. So it doesn't just filter the air. It scrubs it completely clean. Smoke, mold spores, VOCs, chemical fumes, all of it completely gone. I feel so much calmer knowing the air in my home is actually clean.

like I'm not fighting invisible stuff while trying to take care of myself and even all of my animals. Jasper gave me a code for $200 off. Use insane at jasper.com. That's insane for 200 bucks off. We talk a lot about taking care of our minds on this show, but the air we breathe matters just as much. I think we have, that's a great question. I think we had a blast in each other's company. Like we were so, we were wired so similarly. Like we had, we both had a will to win, an entrepreneurial spirit.

Like, I mean, we just, and he, he was a winner. I mean, like, people were going to play bullshit. He was a winner. Like, I mean, like, in his career, like, he was very successful, you know. And I, most people would consider me pretty successful for what I did, you know, and being the lane I'm in. And so we both just had a drive out of this world. Yeah.

And, like, and so we just loved each other's company, banter, harassment. You know what I mean? Like, we just love being each other's company. But it didn't make you jealous that they were still together? No. Okay. Because I didn't. And okay, and I'll also say this.

This is not making it right. I have a very soft spot in my heart for abandon spouses today. We'll get there. But at the time, I did not get the sense that I was, that we were sharing him, if that makes sense. Like, I did not get, keep in mind, they're 30 years older. You know, so I didn't get the sense that I was really taking anything away. or that I was sharing him with her. Right, wrong.

I mean, it was wrong. I mean, but like perception, right, wrong and different, right, at the time. And so I think that could have been part of it, but it's like, I don't, so I don't, I don't, I definitely didn't identify if I had any feelings at that point. Okay. Like, this is just like, I'm having the time of my life with the hobby, with the racing, with him, like, with them, even with them. But, like, you know, we got this little thing on going on the side. First two years to date, as of this recording. like most incredible, fun, and exciting years of my life.

Like, here's the deal is I've committed to tell the truth and lay it out the way it is. And that's just a fact. And I don't like it. My counselor especially didn't like it. Pastor didn't like it. But that's just fact, right? It was like most fun years of my life.

Two years in, I hit rock bottom, wanting nothing more than to die. Because I didn't want to lose a man that now held my whole world in his hands any more than I wanted to be a secret for the rest of my life. I knew right from wrong. I already told you my upbringing. I knew. I think what happened looking back in years of counseling, years of healing work, is when I lost the closest friends I'd ever had in my entire church family

over the situation with John Boy and Jenny, it left me one very weak and vulnerable, but also looking for a place to belong. And I didn't identify that at the time. Like, I didn't have the wherewith all the time to recognize that. I just knew I was devastated. I mean, this was a church that I had been at probably 20 years. Like, they knew me at the time, and I knew them.

And so, and I think what happened is when I left that church, we shopped around churches a little bit. But every time I walked through the doors of a church, it was like, well, does this leader have the backbone to do the harder but right thing? Does this leader have the backbone to like take the time, have the conversations, get to the root of the problem for everybody involved to protect in the relationships and sustain the relationships? You know, like, and it's like, I knew those leaders for 20 years and they didn't. So how do I walk into this new church, this guy on stage or this. this gal, I don't even know, like, how do I know they're going to do the harder right thing? Because I believe that's what Jesus would do. I don't believe he would cop out.

You know what I mean? And so we shopped around churches a little bit. I think that's the whole, I know, that whole situation left me in a place of, like, okay, I don't think I ever got angry with God per se. I was pretty much like God, if this is what your people are all about, I want nothing to do with it. Because this doesn't represent you from what I'm reading in scripture. I want nothing to do with them.

And so we just stopped going to church. and then that's in the same season where my husband and I kind of fall apart and then Mab and I crossed the line. And so two years in, I'm rock bottom. Here's what I'll tell you, Deborah, is I don't believe it's in God's design for humanity for anyone to be a secret.

The Bible says we're meant to be fully known and fully loved that were fearfully and wonderfully made, knit together in our other's womb. And whether you're a Christian or an atheist, it doesn't matter. I don't believe any human can sustain that long term, being a secret or being number two or being a backup. Like, I don't believe we should or deserve that.

Well, I think, too, it starts right or wrong. It starts thrilling. Everything like that, I think, is it's different. It's fun. It's almost fun because it's wrong. And I think that there's time periods for everything. It's like you go through that phase, and then that phase is like, shifts into a new phase. And then you're like, well, wait a second.

I don't want that. anymore. So I think that it's just bound to change, you know. Yeah. I tell people all the time, it's fun until it's not. It's fun until it's not. And so I'm at this rock bottom moment. And I mean, fortunately, unfortunately, growing up had, there were some people that I was familiar with that had committed a suicide. And I always perceived it as the most selfish thing a person could do because I saw the pain and confusion that it left everyone that was still here in, you know, from their family to their friends, the community. Like, it just rattled everybody.

You know, and the lack of understanding, it was like, I don't want to do that. Like, I chose to get myself into this. Like, it's not fair to make my family, my community, pay the price for me to take the easy way out. So, and he and I had had those conversations. Like, suicide's not an option. But, like, to say that I didn't want to die. would be a lie. I wanted to die. There was, I knew right from wrong. There was no desirable solution. And so he always told me that this was something we were going to take to our graves.

And so I went, and I didn't, like, I, at this point, I don't think I still realized that I loved him, but like at this point, I'm emotionally invested. And what about him? Did he, he didn't have any plans of leaving her? Not at this point. Not at this point. Which is hurtful too. I'm two years in. Yeah, he certainly didn't want to let go of me, but like he had his cake and got to eat it too, right? You wouldn't believe how far that was for me to say that and write that, but it was the truth. So I went searching incompetence for someone that had been in my shoes, not as a victim. Like, I just wanted to know, like, how did she break free from the toxicity and not just survive, but ever learned to thrive again? And I couldn't find it. At the time, I couldn't find, and again, this is about a decade ago, I couldn't find a podcast, I couldn't find a book, I couldn't find an article.

I couldn't find anything from the mistress's point of view, or the other woman. find plenty of resources from the abandoned spouse, painting her out as the villain. Rightfully so from their perspective. But I couldn't find anything. And that didn't help me in that moment. And so we just keep going through the motions. And of course, not a soul on this earth knew except for me and him. And so he was the only person I talked to. And he would just say, we just have to take the good with the bad. If I never hear that line again, I'll be elated because it was like reflecting back and processing and all the healing work. It was like, that was like saying, hey, let's go skydiving without a parachute.

You know what I mean? Like literally, that's essentially what he was saying. Let's just enjoy it why we can. You know, and despite, but here's the deal. And this is, I later learned this in counseling. I didn't have this clarity at the time. But like, he could love me, whether before we hadn't really put that tag on it, he could love me and still live his life.

Yeah. Like he still had his work. He still had his, somebody to have dinner with, you know. And he would say, it's not the person I wanted, but you still had it, you know. When you're the other person, the other woman, the other man, whatever it is, like, I wrote a poem called Lonely Alone in My Own Home, because, like, you are the second option. Like, if that person's spouse or significant other shows up, like, you're home alone. Like, you're doing your own thing, right?

At this point, I've always been a guy's gal. I just lost the closest friends I've had. Again, not meaning to sound like a victim, I just didn't have a big friend group. I didn't have, and that was the other pieces. I didn't have any accountability back. then. You know, at this point, I'm divorced and it's just me. Like, I don't have any close girlfriends. I never had. I mean, I had my sister, but she was out of state, and she was, you know, marrying off and having a family of her, growing a family of her own, you know what I mean. And so, like, I didn't have anybody in close proximity. I'm self-employed. I'm not rubbing shoulders with coworkers every day, you know. And so there was just a lot that played into it that,

so we just kept going through the motions and it got harder and harder because she became, meeting Mary, his wife, became more and more suspicious. I would try to go talk to her, We went and get anywhere. But it got to the point about three years in. It was this last spring. And the meat had not started yet for the races. And it was to the point that he was asking me to, because I was still hauling every morning. We were still working together, hauling the horses.

And he knew my route to get to the farm from my place. And so he would meet me on the road and say, well, you just lay low for a couple days. She's, World War III has broke out behind closed doors. And I'm like, yeah, I'll lay low. I'll, yeah, just let me know when you want me to pop back in. And but by like that I don't even know now I lost I lost count probably the fourth or fifth time. I'm like within a short season like we're still in the first quarter of the year. I'm like he met me on the road and I'm like yeah I'll lay low but I'm not coming back until you have this resolved or until you tell me it's not going to be resolved then I'm I'm done.

You know what I mean? Like it's I'm not living like this anymore. So quick question. Yeah please. When you would go or when you would try to talk to her, how did that make you feel? Okay, first of all, I just have like a knot in my throat right now because it disgust me now. Like I was trying and the way I explained it in the writing, it was like, I was, because I even like invited them in to do a couple of deals with me because the construction side,

when we were all just friends working on the construction of their facility, it was all going so well. Right. Like what I didn't, so I even invited them in on a couple flips. They funded a couple flips thinking that that would give her and I some neutral ground again just to be able to do work. Because here's what happened. And I will answer your question. Here's what happened is once the construction was done,

I became very hands-on with the horses when we partnered up on some horses. So I was literally like, I mean, I told you I was that tomboy. So I was the one like hauling the horses, backing the trailers in, you know, unloading, loading, feed. Hey, it didn't matter for small squares. If it was the large squares, I had to unload a semi with the tractor. Like, I did all that. That's the world I grew up in. Whereas Mary is more like she was still supportive.

involved, but she was more like at that point than just the back end. Like, I mean, she would go to the track or whatever, but she was mostly like the paperwork, the billing, talking to owners, you know, like those kinds of things. So she wasn't near as hands on. So after the first six months of construction, it was like, Mav and I, like we were rubbing shoulders all day, every day. Okay, so I moved into a new house, and if you've ever done that, you know the air feels a little off at first. Between new paint, new furniture, funky old vents, who even knows what you're actually breathing in? That's, That's why I got Jasper and I am absolutely obsessed. It's a medical grade air scrubber.

So it doesn't just filter the air. It scrubs it completely clean. Smoke, mold spores, VOCs, chemical fumes, all of it completely gone. I feel so much calmer knowing the air in my home is actually clean. Like I'm not fighting invisible stuff while trying to take care of myself and even all of my animals. Jasper gave me a code for $200 off. Use insane at jasper.com. That's insane for 200 bucks off.

We talk a lot about taking care of our minds on this show, but the air we breathe matters just as much. And then what we didn't realize at the time until later in our friendship relationship was that there was like this natural kind of transfer of responsibility. Because I don't know, like, I'm sure you've worked around people where you know of people that, like, there's some people that you hand them a task and they'll get to it and they'll get to it. Yeah.

Three, four days later, you might follow up and it may or may not be done. And then there's other people you hand him something and it's like, oh my God, how'd you get it? It's a best. You know what I mean? I was that person. Like if he gave me anything, like I'm not just with him, but with anything, my own career. You know, like if there's a job to be done, I get it done. And so who do you, would you tend to like, you know, delegate your responsibility to then?

The person that's getting shit done or the person that's three or four days later when you bring it back up, oh, yeah. Right. You know what I mean? So that was happening a lot. And so then it was like suddenly a few years later you look up and it's like, oh, I'm doing, it seemed like almost everything. Yeah. You know, and so she was beginning, I mean, she didn't communicate this to me, but to him,

she was beginning to feel left out in a sense. Like she didn't know what's going on because it was just me and him basically running the show. You know, I mean, it was always his show, but I was there supporting him basically as his right hand. And so when I even, again, invited them in to just trying to create a space for her and I. again to so she would feel more involved and more wanted and engage and it's sickening to me now at the time what I knew is I did not want to lose what I had with him not even just the sexual piece but just the whole experience with them that I had came this hobby I come to love the social outlet it had provided me that I had never had in my life and the routine I'm sure too I'm the routine the even

being part of a winning team you know like I hadn't had that since I played sports in middle school early high school. There was just so much I didn't want to lose. And so it was like my biggest piece was, okay, how do I hold on?

How do we keep enjoying what we're enjoying on all levels and it not be hell on earth for everybody, or for them behind closed doors? And so that was just another way to try to like,

hey, let me massage this and see if this will help. Sure, we all made money. That was a win, but it didn't help resolve the jealousy or the envy behind closed doors. You know,

she obviously suspected something. And so does that answer your question? Yeah. So as far as talking with her, it would be like, and I can remember, like, and I put this in the book, but I whenever, we kind of had a heart to heart on her porch one day. And by the time I got home, you know, five minutes later, I had a text from her. And she was just saying, like, like a light bulb just kind of went off after you left, that I realize that maybe I'm jealous of your Mav's friendship. And I was like, It was a bit of a relief in the moment, but unfortunately, I don't feel like she could ever get a grip on that. Yeah.

You know, it just ate her a lot. And, of course, at this point, her husband is. We are sleeping together, and she doesn't know that for a fact. I'm sure she suspected that and since something different at home, you know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, I hate that. But that's the reality of what was going on at the time. The affair went on.

After that rock bottom moment, I couldn't find any help in confidence, I should say. I wasn't about to tell anybody. I wasn't going to breach his confidence. And so when that happened in the early, late spring, early summer, the meat had not quite started yet. He met me on the road. I tell him, I said, I'm not coming back until you haven't resolved. And that was the last I ever helped him with the operations.

Our affair, however, continued. So you stopped helping him work. Yeah. I stopped helping him on the farm, stopped hauling horses altogether. Basically, so that she would chill out. I was tired of the, like, push and pool. You know what I mean? I was tired of the, hey, I need you to lay low and just stay away for two or three days, four days.

Come back. You know what? Now I need your help. You know what I mean? Like, I was tired of that. Like, so, like, I did finally set a boundary and like, I'm done. I'm not doing this. But I didn't end the affair at that point.

Okay. As you can imagine, again, not as a victim, just the reality is that at that time, I've lost the hobby that had come to love. I've lost the social circle. I've came to enjoy every evening after races. I've lost the quote-unquote friendship and the time I had the unscheduled time I had with him day in and day out working. You know, like so don't get me wrong, like throughout this entire season, like I'm still doing my real estate thing. But by that time, I have guys doing the work so I can kind of manage it from afar and pop in, pop out.

So I lost a lot when I told him I wasn't coming back and then he didn't get resolved. I lost a lot. So I was just like, I jumped again being a guy's gal. I think it was maybe Bumble or something. Just jump on there. Literally, people can call bullshit, believe what you want to believe, but literally just looking. for somebody to go to dinner with. Like, I had nobody at this point.

Like, my parents are local, but that's it. And so I think I met two different guys for dinner. Literally shook their hands when I left, like zero interest. And that's not even what I was going for. I was going for in a social. It was like the companion show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's like, I don't know, some of these apps online.

That's a whole other conversation. But there's like, if you're looking for friends or if you're looking for, you know, whatever. So I do this, like, not even thinking of anything of it. And this is a man that I told everything to you. Like, we talk about everything, which is, probably where the danger zone started is because we were so comfortable in each other's world that we talked about things that most opposite sex people don't talk about unless you are dating

or in a relationship, right? And so he was over, he stopped by my place one day. I'm not helping him, so he would just pop in when he could to say, hey. And so he was, it was a middle of an afternoon, and he was on my porch. And so I just shared with him about meeting these two guys and didn't think a thing of it. And Devorah, he came on court. Like I had never seen him so over. upset with me in our entire, the entire duration of our knowing each other. Like, he was pacing my porch, and then he finally stops, and he leans up against the porch post. Now, just picture Marble Man. He hadn't smoked in 30 years, but picture Marble Man. So he's leaning up against my porch post, and he's like, I can't live you're so naive. And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like,

I have fallen in love with you. I'm speechless. And I'm very, very rarely speechless. Like, I don't even what to say. Like we're three years into this affair. It's World War III at him for home. Like, she doesn't know, but she suspects it. And I'm not helping him anymore. And so this is, again, late spring, early summer. He says, I didn't reciprocate the I love you, like, or tell him I had fallen in love with him. Like, I just didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to think. How did it make you feel when he said that? Oh, shit. Yeah. You know what I mean? Do you feel like it was a relief to some degree of like, okay, like I have that confirmation that he has feelings for me. Like, it's not just, like, I'm the hidden woman.

I don't think I, I don't think I've articulated anything at the time. I think I was just like almost like. Confused. Stunned. Okay. Like, what, what just happened? Yeah. And why, like, oh, that makes sense why you're so upset about my meeting to other guys,

even though I just shook their hands. Like, if I had something to hide, I wouldn't have told you. You know what I mean? Like, I was just sharing. Like, this is what I've been up to, you know? I don't think I put the pieces together at the time. Okay. So you didn't reciprocate it back. I did not reciprocate it back. I'm just listening. He ends up leaving.

And before he left, he said, will you just give me the winter to get a result? So this is like, we're talking like April May. He's like, will you give me the winter to get a result? Because we were the, the racings he wasn't about to fire up. He didn't want all the drama at the track. Can't have that. No. That would be way too much trouble for somewhere that was very successful. You know, so I was like, I mean, what else I'm going to say at this point?

I'm like, yeah, I'll give you the winner. If you're that serious, then you're, I was like, so I did that day say yes to that. Like I didn't reciprocated that I love you, but I was just like, yeah, I'll give you the winner. And I, he was like, this is, this reveals his age. He was like, you won't go on any more dinner dates. No, I won't go anymore dinner dates. And so what was what I didn't see, because I just, I trusted him with everything. Winter came and went and nothing was resolved.

Okay. So I moved into a new house. and if you've ever done that, you know the air feels a little off at first. Between new paint, new furniture, funky old vents, who even knows what you're actually breathing in? That's why I got Jasper and I am absolutely obsessed. It's a medical grade air scrubber. So it doesn't just filter the air, it scrubs it completely clean. Smoke, mold spores, VOCs, chemical fumes, all of it completely gone.

I feel so much calmer knowing the air in my home is actually clean. Like I'm not fighting in visible. stuff while trying to take care of myself and even all of my animals. Jasper gave me a code for $200 off. Use insane at jasper.com. That's insane for 200 bucks off. We talk a lot about taking care of our minds on this show, but the air we breathe matters just as much.

And what he would always say, the only thing he could come up with to say is, I can't afford to lose what I've worked for my whole life. And I took that to me, not just financial, but kids, grandkids, like he had fear of. And you would think as two adults that we could just, like, I wouldn't want to lose anybody in my family either over a significant other. You know, like, you would think we could have disrespectfully been like,

okay, this is not going to work. This sucks. This hurts and this is not going to work. That's when I realized I had fallen in love because trying to let go after that winter came and went and he didn't resolve them. Like you couldn't just let go. I couldn't just walk away. I couldn't just let go.

I find out my sister and her and I are super close. my only sibling, I found out she was pregnant with her first child. And I was so excited, sorry, I was so excited for her, for her husband, for my family at large. Like, I love, love kids. But like when she shared that, when her and her husband shared that, it was like, hit me like a ton of bricks because I'm like, oh my God, I've always dreamed of being that like vibrant, cool, healthy, abundant, and like, you know what I mean? Like, and here I am tied up in a toxic love affair. drowning. And so her and I went on a walk. She didn't know. Like, nobody knew. We went on a walk. They live out in the country. Went on a walk afterwards. And I just remember telling her on that walk,

like, I got some things. I got to get, I got to get cleaned up before this baby gets here. My niece that hadn't even entered the world yet was like my first why. But DeVore, it was like, here it was. Then she's born and I'm still in it. Like, I tried and tried and tried. Like, I would end it and then like how do you walk away from someone that you love how do you walk away from somebody that doesn't want you to walk away from them you know like it was like this tug of war it was hell not to mention that we live just a few miles apart and share the same service road so we pass on the road every single day multiple times a day the way i wrote it in the book was it's like the closest thing i can think of is like a recovering alcoholic choosing to live next to a bar yeah like it was brutal

And so I this is we're now in the year of COVID and I'm not helping them but the affair's still going on. My niece is here. And I decided to take off to, well, Dave Ramsey was hosting an event outside of Nashville and a live event. And here we are in COVID. Nobody's doing anything. I'm like, I just want to go be around people. Like I'm just, I'm going. It is business boutique.

Christy Wright was the personality at the time that was putting that on. And they're having at a church, a large church. I think there was like 1,200 women there. And so I go. And Annie F. Down, I'm not sure if you're familiar, she was on stage speaking. And she was speaking about social media. So I was kind of tuned out. I wasn't even on social media at the time.

I hate social media. I get it. It's where the world's at. It's where I'm at now. But I wasn't there at the time. So I'm pretty well tuned out, just kind of flipping through the notebook or whatever, sitting out there with the other 1, 199 women. And I heard her say don't have secrets.

And I just kind of like, did that whole look up, look down, glance, you know. And it was. wasn't moments later. She stopped her entire speech or entire presentation. She's like, no, right now, the Holy Spirit's telling me, somebody in this room needs to hear me say, don't have secrets. I'm not talking about online. I'm talking about in life. And you could have heard a pin drop the way I recollected. Like, I looked up slow, I remember like slowly raising my head and opening my eyes, because I felt like I had 2,400 eyes on me. And I'm like, of course, nobody was looking at me. But I'm like, okay, God, I heard you.

I hurt you. That was the straw that broke the candles back. I went back at the opera hotel, found a bar, drank myself drunk. I got plastered. Like the weight of that was just, like, I have, like, this has to be it. Like, this is it. I just got called out in front of 1,200 people by a complete stranger. Like, that's, I don't know what else you'd correlate that.

I mean, for me, that's God. And so, so I, he calls. I leave the business boutique is over, and he calls, want to know where I'm at, because his wife had left to go home to their home state. And I was like, well, I'm in Tennessee. And he was not happy. But like for the first time since this affair had begun, like I had chose me. Like I didn't sit around waiting.

And at that point, she was leaving so little because I think she was so suspicious. You know, like she wasn't going home much. She wasn't leaving much. And so, but when he called, when she did leave, he expected that I would be there. Right. And I wasn't there. And that upset him. And I told him on the phone that day, I said it's over.

I can't keep doing this. Again, you can live your life and love me, but my life is staying on hope. I can't go on like this forever. And now I have a niece in this world to be an example for. Before long, she's going to start recognizing who I really am right now. You know what I mean? And so he heard me. I don't think he believed me that day.

Yeah. Because I had ended it, quote unquote, ended it so many times. I came back. But that really was, that really is what stuck. And then I went from there. and I told my sister, my brother-in-law. And that's what I encourage women now is, like, tell somebody when you're ready, when you're really ready for, to find healing.

Like, tell somebody you would never in a million years want to let down. Yeah. Because my sister's that person. And I knew, like, before when I had ended it with him, I never told the soul. Yeah. So it was just for me. Well, you know now, if you tell something, if you tell them, it's like, there's no going back. Right.

Yeah. Like, when you tell that person, you don't want to let down? I'm like, I'll never sleep with him again because I don't want to hurt her. I don't want her to not trust me. You know what I mean? So I didn't. So I then pursued or sought out a professional counselor disinterested third party that wouldn't get entangled in all the emotion of this.

I had no idea. Like I thought being a secret was the hardest thing I had ever done. I can look right now and say hands down, healing is the hardest thing I've ever done. Like the most brutal thing I've ever done. And I know that's not encouraging for your listeners, but here's what I can also articulate is that I had to ask myself, like, was there any future in that affair? And the answer was definitively no. Was there a future in healing? I couldn't see it.

The future looked so bleak and so dark to me. Well, you can't heal when you're stuck in something that is in a healing environment. You know what I mean? It would keep you low. Yeah. But I could, like, that was the only hope I had. Yeah. if I wanted a future at all, like healing was the only option to even give me that chance,

you know, even though I couldn't, like, articulate what that would look like. And so I started with the counselor, and she just ingraineded me from day one. Like, you are too wonderful to be his secret, to be anyone's secret. And so that was, like, the foundation. And she also told me, like, the only way beyond grief is through it. Like, you can't skip around this. And so I was with her for about a year and a half, sometimes going two and a few times a week. like it was the amount of time I've spent in counseling, the money I've spent, it's just unbelievable.

But she ended up retiring. And so I kind of reached a point that I thought I was ready to do life on my own. Like I feel like, oh, this session feels like a repeat of the last. And I was pretty excited about a new business adventure with real estate. I was firing up and went about six months and then had this mission, reach out to a thousand homeowners facing foreclosure by December 31st, accomplished it. And then like the first week of January, oh my gosh, DeBora.

it just hit me like a ton of bricks. And I'm like, hello grief. You know, I didn't know at the time, but that's grief. Like it's a beast, right? And you never know when it's going to come. Like, so where I thought I was doing really well a year and a half into counseling, I think it was just like I just kind of, I got so excited about the mission at hand with my career

that I just slid it to the back burner. I put it in the closet for a minute. Yeah. But then six months later, it's raring its ugly head and it hits back. And so then by that time, time I was at another church and I had started Jenny Allen study called Find Your People and I had a couple gals locally and a dear friend of mine from Virginia that was jumping on Zoom and so we were doing that like I was trying to learn how to have female friendships.

I've never had them other than my sister and it was like obviously these guys aren't working out very well for me. Friends beyond whatever it's not working out. I got to do something else. And so we're going through that study and I was I told them I said guys or gals whatever. I'm not good. I got to get help again. And so they referred me to Rachel Long, which I now refer to as the legend. She is the founder of a great counseling center called Joshua Center.

And it was in honor and memory of her brother. And when she lost her brother, she went, I will say this, I believe a bad counselor can be worse than no counselor. And she went to one of those, basically told her to put Josh in a box and raise her kids. And so her and her family, experience like seven years of delayed grief because of that. And so then she found another counselor,

which was a whole different experience, and it went really well when she was actually able to grieve. And so her enduring connection to Josh was founding and opening Joshua Center. And so she was also a pastor at the church I was attending with those gals. I didn't know her until they introduced me, but I started with her and she just continued to build on what the first counselor did, and she's specifically grief-informed therapy. She continued to help me walk this out. It was just like, what you don't work out, you will walk out. I don't know if you've ever heard the quote. It's unknown who was the original author of it.

But like, if you don't heal from your wounds, you'll bleed on people that never catch you. You know, and so she was just a strong encourager. At this point, I had ended the affair. But. Now, was he still trying to reach out to you? Oh, that's what I was going to say is, yeah. So I've been out of the affair for two years,

but we still had communication. Oh. Like, we were still communicating. Like, I was determined with a, I mean, there was not even an, option in my brain of not sustaining a neighborly and friendly relationship. Like it wasn't even... Although it was also your friend.

And I think that makes it hard when it's somebody that it's not just someone you have feelings for, but when they're your friend. Okay. So I moved into a new house. And if you've ever done that, you know the air feels a little off at first. Between new paint, new furniture, funky old vents, who even knows what you're actually breathing in? That's why I got Jasper and I am absolutely upset.

It's a medical grade air scrubber, so it doesn't just filter the air. It scrubs it completely clean. Smoke, mold spores, VOCs, chemical fumes, all of it completely gone. I feel so much calmer knowing the air in my home is actually clean. Like I'm not fighting invisible stuff while trying to take care of myself and even all of my animals. Jasper gave me a code for $200 off. Use insane at jasper.com. That's insane for 200 bucks off. talk a lot about taking care of our minds on this show, but the air we breathe matters just as much.

Yeah, I was determined to hold on with a death grip. First counselor, I skipped that part, but the first counselor was like, she challenged me and encouraged me when we first started. When I first approached her and started sessions, she said I needed to take a break from communication with him. And I'm like, I didn't get it. I'm like, why? But here I am. Like, I know I need help. I came to you because I need help because I can't seem to figure this out on my own. Like, how long? That's what I asked her how long. She's like, well, you know, time will tell. Like, we just, we, but you've got to cut off communication if you really want to do this.

And I'm like, so we got through the holidays and then I cut off communication the beginning of January. And I lasted 75 days before I saw him out at the farm and swung in and that story from the book. But I was like, that was like an amputation. And it grew back. And it grew back. And that's why I'm such a believer now that that's why my first counselor didn't do anything wrong. I'm not suggesting that. but I do believe when it comes to healing, we have to take the reins.

Like we have to be like in the driver's seat of our own healing. Yeah. Like we can have counselors, we can have therapists. And that's what Rachel got, don't get me wrong. We wore it a couple times. But ultimately, that's what she got really good at is understanding my wiring, which might be different from your wiring. And like I didn't want that 75 days.

You know what I mean? And so I wasn't owning it. I was just fallen orders. Yeah. You know, and it came back. And so we were in communication when Rachel and I, when I started therapy with Rachel, I can remember at one point during that 75 days,

though he passed on the service road with a truck and trailer. And I was on the phone with my sister, and I was like, how will I know when it's okay to talk again? And she was like, when you don't feel anything or experience any emotion when you talk to him, and it never happened. Yeah. But I did talk to him again.

And so when I meet Rachel, we're two years in, two years removed from the affair, but we're still in communication. And so it was a long, long journey. Some things happened with his work in which he got suspended and ultimately ended up being completely thrown out. He was, they claimed they deemed him innocent and all that. But in the meantime, when you're in that industry, like you can't just not have the animals.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like in motion. And so it, he ended up liquidating. And I actually handled the paper. worked for the sale of their farm and they left when that happened that was early fall when they were leaving is it still during COVID no after so we're three years later okay so we've been in so no affair but or no physical affair I should say we've been in communication for three years

post affair now were you dating at this time I have not dated at all since him even to this day to this day. I feel the fire. No. I've been on the apps, but I have not dated. We'll get there. Okay. I'm about to get therapy. I feel like I'm in. So they sell the farm. Yeah. And I ended up on the paperwork. I never saw Mary at that. He came in the closing at my office. And he had promised me that, like, that we would have a chance to connect in person. Because that was few and far. Those visits were few and far between at this point, right? Like it was more just text or calls if we were communicating.

And he had promised me he would tell me by. And she ended up writing up, out of state, writing in for the closing. Didn't come to the closing. She stayed at their farm while he came to the closing. And I even remember, it's in the book I think, but I was like, why didn't she just come? Like a sign instead of doing like a power attorney or something. He's like, she's not going to show.

She's not going to show her cards like that. Like, she's not going to show everybody how jealous and envious. And what broke my heart at that point was like, oh, my gosh. Like, at that point we're, it was four and a half years since I had been intricately involved in their operations. Like, three years since he and I's affair had ended. But, like, since I had been around her day and a day out, it had been four and a half years. Yeah. And it obviously still consumed her.

You know, she knew, like, she sent something with him, obviously. So she didn't come to the closing. but he couldn't hang around like there was no chance for him and I to have a conversation because buyers were going back to the farm after they bought it and that's where she was and he had to go get her I mean in fact there's three different buyers two left my office he and one buyer my title closing escrow officer was still there he and another buyer were standing outside on the patio just talking hadn't left my office yet and his phone was ringing wanting to know where he was because she saw the other buyers pull in so she thought he was still with me you know not even thinking

about the escrow officer that was there. But that's how much, four and a half years removed from being around me, and that's how much it's still like ate or alive. And so they left. He promised me. So that weekend, he went to haul some horses out of state somewhere, and he was flying solo. We literally talked to Vora that entire weekend on the phone.

Like if he wasn't loading or unloading horses, like I bet we spent 20 hours on the phone that weekend, insanity. like just processing everything. And he promised me he was going to come back up. And I'm just like, I'm at the point, of course, I'm still in conversation and therapy with Rachel, but I'm like the point that I'm like, this is not fair to you, it's not fair to me.

Like for the first time in his life or in his adult life, I'd just say he wasn't moving to a farm. It was like he had bought her a house like at the time that was supposedly in her parents' neighborhoods. So it was just like a small. And I'm like, he called it a she shed. And that's where they were going back to. initially. And so he was, I was like, what are you going to do? Run out behind the shed to have a

conversation. Like you got to remember at this point with her, like we don't have freedom of friendship. Like in her eyes, it's like, why do you guys need to talk anymore? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, we haven't worked together in years. Why do you guys have any need to have a conversation? And what did he say when you said that? That he, he understood. Like he was willing to do what he could do just to try to sustain, you know, and call me when he could, but that's the whole thing. It's like a person can only be belittled, degraded, and ditched so much before it takes a toll.

And it had taken a toll a long time ago. But it was like now, it's like, I can only imagine, I mean, we're a few miles apart now, but now you're going to be in another state. Like, I'm not going to, at least now when I pass you on the road, I can see if there's somebody in the passenger seat. And it's safe to call, if not. You know what I mean? Like, you're in another state.

I'm not going to have a clue when, and I would literally send like a question mark if I didn't have a grip on like his status like if somebody was around if he could talk or not and so it's like this is not we can't live like this and so I had told him I was like we just we need to say goodbye and so Rachel had helped me prepare and so he was going to come back in come back up and when he after that he had told me on that Sunday he was coming back in to their state where we had talked that whole weekend he was like yeah one of the kids wants me to take her and marry on vacation next week. So he's like, it may be another week. If I do that, it'd be another week before I come back up there. And I was like, I got so,

I mean, I remember crying on the phone that night, but I got so angry because I'm like, it was so clear that he still had, and he was saying this that whole weekend where we had so much conversation that weekend of like, he's like, if you think I love you any less now than I did then, like you're wrong. If we could fall off the face of the earth and affect nobody else, like I'd spend the rest of my life with you. Like, I mean, like, there was just, just it was very clear that he still had very strong feelings for me and wanted to be with me. And then it like registers in my mind, oh, this is their anniversary week. And so I think kid was like, and maybe it wasn't the kid.

Maybe that's just what he told me. But like take them on this trip. And I'm like, please don't. Please don't live this massive, like capitalize on this massive lie. You're like, you're going to go celebrate an anniversary. that wouldn't even exist if she had been amicable. You know what I mean? To separating.

She was just never amicable. He tried to talk to him about it, but she just wasn't having it. And I get a text, so he gets back in Sunday night. That's the last conversation. I get a text Monday afternoon and says, it's just real hard to tell her and real hard to tell you, no. Please don't get mad. And so he was taking him on the trip.

And I flipped the hell out. I mean, I went back shit crazy. I didn't. Here's the thing is this man could bring out the best of me. and he can bring out the worst of me. I saw a side of me. I didn't even know existed. Yeah.

Like I think I went back on look. I think it was like 29 text messages. And I forget how many minutes and trying to call. He wouldn't answer his phone. Like, will you please just like, you know, and just going bad shit crazy? And so then I'm like, the difference was this time though is I was like, oh, I have a counselor. I have Rachel. Call Rachel.

I'm like mad or hornet. And she's like, Alicia, you're not going to change it. tell him that you're not, that you talk to your counselor, that you're not going to text him or Paul in this week, and that if he wants to come through on his promise to meet with you in person, to let you know. And so that's what he did the next Saturday. When they got back in town, he texted me that morning and said,

I'm headed that way. And so I was out pressure washing out back, and he came, and Rachel just kept drilling in me. He said, you are in control of how this ends. You've done enough healing work. controlled that sense. And I wanted nothing more than for it to be, like, just to have a mutual respect. We'd always said no matter what, we wouldn't hate each other. And so that's what we had that day. I mean, it was emotional. Oh my God, it was so emotional for both of us, but I just told him

that what we did was wrong and that I didn't, I forgive him for all the hurt and pain. And he ended up pulling out there that day. And basically I left it at, it's not fair to you, not fair to me, or our families to try to sustain regular contact. Like, this is, we're high. hiding, we're sneaking, just to have a conversation as friends at this point. You know, like this is insanity. He left and, I don't know, I'm guessing probably 30 minutes, 40 minutes before he got home that night. He sent me a text and it was, oh gosh, Dolly Pardon did a version of it. I can't think of the other guy that did it, but we all, I will always love you. And he just said, I hope you don't mind me sending this, but I just want

you to know. And I text him back and it was like, I know you will and you know I will. I love you and I release you. And I think I send him a song from. Mora. The hardest goodbye I've ever experienced my life. Okay, so I moved into a new house, and if you've ever done that, you know the air feels a little off at first. Between new paint, new furniture, funky old vents, who even knows what you're actually breathing in? That's why I got Jasper, and I am absolutely obsessed. It's a medical grade air scrubber, so it doesn't just filter the air, it scrubs it completely clean. Smoke, mold spores, VOCs, chemical fumes, all of it completely gone. I feel so much calmer knowing the air in my home is actually clean. Like I'm not fighting

invisible stuff while trying to take care of myself and even all of my animals. Jasper gave me a code for $200 off. Use insane at jasper.co. That's insane for 200 bucks off. We talk a lot about taking care of our minds on this show, but the air we breathe matters just as much. I left it at we don't need a sustained regular contact if something major changes with either of our families, I don't want, like, I don't want you to feel like you can't reach out. You know, like, we've done a lot of life together, but we're not going to, we're not going to talk every day or every week or whatever. And so it's cricket, four months go by. And December 26th of that year, I get a text. And he says, basically something along the lines, if I hear, congratulations are

in order. I know how much you love your niece as a nephew. My sister had just had another baby, and she had posted the picture on Facebook, and apparently Mary had seen it on Christmas Day when they were traveling and said something to it. And that's very perplexing to me because I'm like, I don't like, if you really hate and despise me at that point or that, like, why would you even react? Maybe she wanted to see his reaction. Bring me up.

Possibly, possibly. But I was shocked to hear from it, you know, and of course that fired all communication again. We're going back to 2023-ish, yeah, somewhere there. and probably about 30 days estimating was approximately 30 days worth of just text, calls, never did see each other again. And then it was great until like,

oh, I can't talk right now. That all fired back up. You know what I mean? Like it didn't take long. And so, or not getting response or getting a short answer. Like, we knew each other so well inside out, upside down at this point.

Like, I could read it from a million miles away. I think I'd send a text on a Tuesday. I was upset. And I'm just like, essentially just, you don't get it. You don't listen to my heart cry. Like this, we, it just can't go on like this. And then, I don't know, it was like a day or two later. I get out of the shower and I have text from him basically saying,

don't ever call me again. Don't ever text me again. Don't ever contact me again. I've promised Mary, I won't ever talk to you again. And like, yeah, I'll lose it again. Try to call him. He says, well, I'm like, can you at least give me the respect of a phone? call. Like, we're a decade at this point. And this is somebody, like, this is the guy that

fought for me like no human ever has for the last decade. Like, are you kidding me? Like, this is how, this is how you're going to end it. And I'm not even the one that reached back out. Like, we had this, like, respectful, reciprocal, mutual goodbye four months ago. And then he reached back out, you know? And I'm like, what in the world? Something has happened, but I don't know what's happened. And he's like, as far as the phone call, he was like, yeah, I can when I get back to the house where Mary's at. And I'm thinking in my head, what, so you can lie to both of us on the phone? Like, you know, I mean, what's the point of that?

And so, there again, I call Rachel. And I was spiraling. I was spiraling. And I had an emergency session with her, had multiple sessions that week, and basically prepared a text. For the first time in our knowing each other, he had taken a stand against me publicly, if you will. Not like public at large, but with his wife.

You know what I mean? He had always fought with her. for me, to protect me, to protect my presence, to protect my friendship, my neighborly relationship, right? And so the fact that he had just did what he did, since he took a stand against me with her knowing it, clearly in text so that he could show her those texts, I was like, okay, I feel like I'm in a place to take a stand for truth.

I'm not going to force that truth on her. So I always felt like it was his place to tell her. I begged him to tell her, and he went into it. And so I was like, I'm not going to force the truth on her, but I feel like it's time to take a stand for truth. And so this is all navigating processing with Rachel, right, in counseling. And so I prepared a text and shared it with my core group of friends at that point and just kind of edited it throughout the week.

And so we had a session on a Wednesday night. I'll never forget it. I'm in her counseling office. And the plan was basically to send this text to both of them on a group thread. And she's like, are you ready? I'm quivering. Like my hands are shaking, my body's sweating. I'm like as ready as I'll ever be.

But I knew I had to do it. And it was basically just saying, Mav, the text you sent, me last week were manipulative, deceptive. I don't know where it came from. And then I addressed Mary and I said, if you want to know and see the truth, feel free to reach out anytime. And rest assured that I will never have any direct contact with him again. It's like 15 minutes later. I get a text back from him on the group chat. Basically, and Rachel, I don't remember exactly what it said, but I just, I screamed bullshit in the counseling room. And Rachel goes, he just gas-slided you. I didn't know what that meant. I was just so angry because I went into that night

wanting and having stood on it the whole week. I wanted nothing more than for the truth to be known. What did he say? Oh, gosh. It was something along the, it's in the book, but it's something along the lines of just like, you know how people talk and all the BS that stirs from that. And it all comes back to me erase some texts that I shouldn't have erased. And we didn't mean you cause you no harm. and we wish you the best. Did she ever answer? No, and that's why I said the way I said it, like if you want to know and see the truth,

feel we're to reach out. Because if you just, if you want to know the truth, it's just my word against his word, right? But I have text. I mean, I have stuff I could show you if you want to know the truth. I mean, and this is a couple that, I mean, there are four decades into marriage.

Like, it's in, it really broke my heart because it's like, I got angry first because I'm like, I just wanted the truth to me known. I wanted the cards on the table. And I thought it was going to happen that night. And it didn't happen. And she's never reached out since.

And I've not blocked them, either one of them, because I'm like, if they reach out, I want to know. And probably against the legal counsel, if she ever reaches out, I feel like I owe her that conversation. You know, like there's nothing in my heart desires more than a knee-capped-to-ne-ne-cap conversation with Mary. So you've never had a conversation with her. No. But she obviously knows now. I can't imagine how you wouldn't know now. Yeah.

But they're still together? As far as I know. I have not had... Okay. So when did that happen? And then when did you decide I'm going to write a book? That would have been, where are we like, what is this, 2026? So that had been about two and a half years ago.

Okay. When that happened? It's been about two and a half years since I've had since that group text. And you have not communicated with him, her, nothing. Nothing since then. I haven't seen them since then. Okay. So then you're obviously still having your counseling with Rachel.

Yes. Okay. And then at what point do you decide, like, I really want to go public. That's what I say. When he and I met for the amical, the goodbye that went well, the amical goodbye, the hardest goodbye, but the amical will go by. When he and I met at my farm for that, about six months, seven months prior to the group text, I told him then. Like, I felt like I knew then. I told him then I was going to write a book. And he looked at me, like I had lost my mind. And all I said, he didn't say a word. All I said was, I'm not letting them. this pain be wasted. Nobody should ever experience this. He had saying they just looked at me like

a deer in the headlights, never said a word. So I knew then, that was back in 20203 that I was going to write a book. I had started it. And then that all transpired in early 2024. And then it was in the summer of 2024 when I hired a book coach. I just really felt like in, you know, I had like come to Jesus all through counseling, even with the first counselor kind of came back to my face. and I really felt like God was just nudging me, like, there's one, there's purpose in this pain, and two, feeling really called to serve the woman I used to be. Like the fact that when I hit rock bottom, the fact that nobody had told her story, my story, didn't help me.

And I just had to wonder, like, what if I had found something? What if I had found something that gave me some hope and inspiration or some direction on how to get out, break free from the toxicity? You know, because it becomes like an, it's an addiction. Absolutely. It's an addiction. So you have all those addictive tendencies. And like, what if I had found something?

Like would that, would I have ended it then? Would I have had the courage then and not been that much deeper and insatiated four years later and been in this for four years? And so it just, and so me serving the woman I used to be came in the form of doing the scariest and most courageous thing I've ever done. and telling the world in writing a book. It's called More Than a Secret, how a mistress broke free from her affair,

and then sharing that book with the world. And so he just released in April of this year. So very recent. Very recent. Have you heard from your ex-husband at all? I have not. And people are so blown away, but I have no ill will resentment or anything with him.

Like, if I saw him on the street, I think he ended up moving. And oh, also this is just a little side note, six months after our divorce was final, my dad sent me a screenshot from Facebook, but he had a baby. So the whole like, why did you come in on a Friday

and tell me to go ahead and file versus waiting until Sunday to have this conversation when you had been resisting this. Wait, hold on. Wait, hold on. Did he start ED medicine? I don't think, well, okay, this is just my suspicion.

Sorry, like, I know you're good, but I'm like, I don't think he had, I don't think it was a health issue. I think it was another woman. I think that's why he wasn't performing with me. I think he, I suspect he was in an affair during all that. Jeez, a whiz. No doubt, right?

I don't, like, I wasn't even upset with him. In fact, I was mad. I think he were removed from that for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the same time, there are things there that I think take a toll. Like, that was still a big time of your life, like trying to have a baby and stuff and it not. Like, you know what I mean?

I mean, I still think that to some degree it can be looked at as like what the fuck kind of or like a little bit hurtful. Not because, you know, like whatever he was doing. I don't think you had cared at that point. But I just think it's still like those were major life decisions that you were trying to make. Sure. You know? And honestly, we were trying to conceive, I think, is something he really had a strong

passion for and wanted, not necessarily that I wanted at the time. So, again, I don't want to sound like a victim in that. But like, I didn't have any resentment toward him at all. even when I learned he had an affair because it's bait. I mean, obviously, do the math, right? And so Mab was pushing up manure at his farm, and I was just there waiting on him to get done. And I showed it to him.

And he's like, what are you going to do? And I was like, I just sent him a text. Meaning like I sent my ex-husband to text and congratulated him. Like, hey. Did he answer? I saw this. I know you always wanted kids and congratulations. Yeah, I think he did.

I think it was just like a thank you. Yeah, like an acknowledgement, like no hard feelings. Right. Yeah, I have not heard from or seen him since. he stopped by one of my great aunt's house like a year or two ago and said hi, but nothing. Yeah, but here's the thing too, DeVore, is I, looking back, it's like, wow, I spent 11 years with him.

I have never shed a tear over that man. Mab, on the other hand. I mean, I can't tell you the number of times I asked Google, it's probably a good thing to chat. GPT didn't exist back then because I can't tell you the number of times I asked Google if I was going to die from heartbreak. Yeah.

Like when I was trying to break free or walk away from Mav, I just thought I was going to die. I really did. And so I, of course, I never got the answer. And I'm here. So here we go. Well, I think, too, like what you were going through was very isolating. You know, like you said, you didn't have, at the time, like, this core group of support

or friends to kind of lean on and talk to you or kind of holding it all within yourself, which is very heavy and sucks really bad. That's what I was supposed to do, right? Take it to my grave. Yeah. That's what I was supposed to do. And I think that that makes it really challenging on top of everything else. because it's like to go through and to work through that kind of grief and loss on your own.

And then on top of it feel like you don't have anybody to turn to and to kind of distract you in that time can make it really challenging. So a couple questions. One, I know that obviously you wanted to, you made the decision when you sent the group chat, that you were ready to kind of release your truth. Do you, I guess when you decided to release your book and even now, do you have any, like is it in the back of your mind about? them at all or are you kind of have you been able to just kind of fully let that go and it's like if they reach out they reach out you'll deal with it when it comes oh gosh I mean of course I sought legal counsel and I changed names I changed identifying details you know and I disclosed that in the book these are people I love yeah I think I always will you know and it wasn't like it wasn't just me

and math I mean it started us and them and then of course their family was out of state so them coming in, like his grandkids, like, I would spoil him rotten when they came in. You know what I mean? Like, it was like the families were, you know, somewhat, you know, we did like together, you know, for a lot of years. And so I have a, I have a very soft spot for him and his family. I didn't write this, I didn't share, write and share this story with the world to hurt anybody. Yeah. And it was one of the hardest pieces of releasing this book to the world was there's some people they're going to know, you know, like they're probably, they read this, they're going to know, you know, his family's going to know. And do my knowledge he hadn't told anybody in his family. And so, like, I hated that.

Like, I know, I didn't, but I had, Rachel would help me go back to my why. And I, this is something I would have never done just on my own will. I felt called to do this. Like, I felt like this was a thing, like, a piece of obedience for me. Yeah. Like, this was what I was called to do. And so it was really hard, but she would just remind me, uh, over and over and over again, like, why are you doing it? Who are you doing it for? You know? And I mean, there's multiple stories in the Bible where entire cities were destroyed over sexual sin.

You know what I mean? And it's not my intent to destroy anyone or hurt anyone. It's my intent to help everyone that wants it. And that's where we're at now. In releasing the book on social media, that's, we're getting lots of traction there. And just like, I'm just, I'm blown away. Like, I think we always know that,

unfortunately, extramental affairs run rampant in our culture. But to the degree, I mean, it's just, it really is mind-boggling. And just being able to meet people where they're at with humility and empathy and grace. I mean, I'm hearing from abandoned spouses. I'm hearing from, you know, the lover or the other woman. I mean, I'm hearing from everybody. Of course, the people that are really ready for help or struggling are sending DMs, they're not putting out on a public comment.

Yeah. And there's a lot of hate coming too. And I get that. Like, I'm at that point of like, again, Rachel's reminded me still to this day. Why did you do this for the woman you used to be? And those women are getting help right now. There's people that's already filled out intake forms for Joshua Center because they didn't have anybody that are getting help right now. And so it's just like going through this, like I can be the villain in the other's perspectives.

That's the price I pay to serve the woman I used to be. And that's going to happen no matter. Even if you're sharing the best most positive story, there is always something that people will find. Sure. And I have a question now. If you're not comfortable answering, you don't have to. I'm curious. If he were to reach back out one day and say that they'd gotten a divorce

and he'd really like to see you and talk to you, what do you think you would do? No. We will never be again. And that's, it always creates some emotion. Because we had, there were so much there. No, we will never be again. because I'm not, I'm not letting the woman I used to be down now. You know what I mean?

Like I, I have, I deeply regret negating my own wars and values, going numb toward my creator, deeply regret the pain and confusion I caused everyone affected. You know what I mean? Like, it's just not, and I understand you're saying hypothetically if he's divorced or if he was single again, but it's like, no, there's no, you know, when we cross the line from friendship to lovers, like there was no going back. Yeah. And I think what's hard, too, is because I, like, I am a big believer in, you know,

like morals and everything like that, obviously. And I think, and this isn't to, like, defend any wrong actions either because, like, obviously everybody knows, like, having affairs bad. Yeah. Right. But I am a big believer in love, and I am a big believer in, and I know you're more like, like, Bible-based and religious beliefs, but I really do have a serious belief in soul ties and soul connections, wherever that comes from. And I think that, you know, sometimes we meet people in this lifetime that we just have a connection with, you know, good or bad. It's just kind of there. Whether that's, you know, whatever you believe in, I believe in soul connections. And I think that the tough thing with that is like there's no denying what you feel, no wrong it might be. And I think

that that's where people struggle, and it's not to make you a victim, but I think it is to like recognize that that is just as real. Do you know what I mean? Like I think that you can fall in love with people that you're not supposed to fall in love with. And I don't think that that is necessarily a sin, obviously like acting on it and doing like, there's so many layers to it. But I think that my thing is like, it's very possible. Like I don't think it's always as easy as people think to like hold back on feelings that just come up. I mean, it's not like you choose. Like, you know what?

You're married. I'm going to fall in love with you because I'm a piece of shit. You know what I mean? And I think that that's kind of something that sucks about the whole situation too is at the end of the day, you're just this girl that fell in love with the wrong person,

I guess you could say. And however, people want to take that, like take it as you will. But I think that that part is the part that sucks the most because when you're going through the motions, it's like obviously, you know, you have everybody's outside opinions, you have your own morals, and you know what's wrong and this, that and the other, but like, it's like the mind against the heart. And that's one of the most

challenging things. And that's, I think, where that grief and that healing comes in because it's like, you can know and say, you know, I shouldn't be doing this or this isn't right or we need to stop this. And then it's like you're constantly battling yourself because it's like, well, your emotions are still here. Like, hello. So I think that that's something a lot of people can relate to, whether they want to admit it or not, whether they acted on it or not. I think that, I think that, there's a lot of situations. We also, unfortunately, we do live in a world where it's like, so many different things are on our fingertips. You know, we're human. At the end of the day, humans are meant to connect. And I think there's a lot of humans that connect only as friends.

There's a lot of humans that can't stand each other naturally. And there's a lot of humans that like naturally you gravitate towards and you might just fall for it. Be like, shoot, I kind of like you more than I think it should be. So it's like, I think a lot of people can relate to that too, which is really important because I think you're very open and raw about that aspect. which like I said even a fair aside that's something I think anybody can relate to or to even just feel like man like in another lifetime you know what I mean like that kind of thing and I think that's a very common feeling because at the end of the day we are all human we all kind of want to connect and feel connection and I think too when you no matter how good your childhood is when you go through life something you mentioned but like not feeling like you were like fought for in a certain way and then you're you're fueled with this this fight and this feeling of like comfort and love, it's also going to like pull on different strings that you've never felt before. And I think all of these things are very like crucial points that tie into a decision that was made, not saying it was the right decision, but I think that people should kind of try to understand

the psychology behind it a little bit more than just like that was a bad decision. Because I think that's a really big part of the reason why people do things they do or, you know, everything in between. But that was the one thing I wanted to say about that. And then the other thing was the dating aspect. that I know we talked about. So do you have any interest in dating? I do. Are you just not there? I mean, it hasn't been that long either. So it kind of makes sense that it's, you know, and you're also in like a very, I feel like you're in a part of your life where it's like you're coming out of something. You're like blooming and thriving. And I think that, you know, it's not that I'm also a big believer in like stay alone, stay single. I think people like thrive. They're the best when they're on their own. But at the same time, you know, we all also crave that connection. I like constantly have that battle with myself.

self of like, oh, like I would love, you know, love and to hang out with somebody and to, you know, feel that feeling because that's not something, I don't believe that's something that you can get from anything else. Yeah. There's no amount of animals, you know, in my case, that can, that can feel that feeling. Satisfy that. No, I was telling my friend that the other day. But, but no, at the same time, I think that, like, it really takes finding the right companion in person because it can, people can really just, like, just strip you down to rock bottom all over again, You know, kind of like pull that focus away where it's, you know, like, I feel like you're in a good, a really good time for yourself. Like your growth, you're thriving, you're kind of taking back a hold of your control and your truth.

Yeah. But anyway, you can answer now. Yeah, 100%. You're good. Okay, so do you have interest dating? I do. I do have interest dating. I'm not, I'm, let me say it.

How do I say it? With where I'm at, I mean, I've basically spent two decades on the wrong men. So I'm like, I am not settling. Me time, yeah. Yeah, I'm not settling. So, like, you know, I'm very, very, very particular, very picky, you know. And so, like, the dating apps, some of my friends make fun of me because they're like, you're swiping left so fast, you can't even see them.

Yeah, right. And they're hard. The apps are hard. And, you know, it's like, I mean, even outside of it, it's hard. I think, too. It's, God, I mean, I feel like it gets worse and worse. Yeah. As time goes on.

It's hard. This is true. There's this crux also of, like, They look me up. I mean, this is the story they're going to find. So how does that work against me? It's going to take the right man, right? That's going to have compassion and empathy and realize that I'm a different person today than I was then. Well, it also takes a certain kind of strength and vulnerability to own up to something that you've done and hurt that you've caused. Sure. Yeah. And I think people need to give you credit for that too. Because I don't think that, I mean, that's not a small thing.

I think it would be easier to just brush it under the rug and just be like, yeah, you know, something. something I did because like you said, that is a part of who you are now, not that it defines you, but it is something that, like you said, there could be people that look it up and they view you a certain way. They label you as that. And that is a decision that you made by doing that. You know, in the sense of like coming out with your book and being public about it, like, you're willingly making the choice, okay, people are going to have bad things to say about me, people are going to choose not to talk to me because of this. And I think that that takes a lot of courage and strength to do as well. It definitely did, more than I knew I had.

But here we are. People are evil. They say some hurtful shit. Yeah, hop on TikTok right now. Right, no, literally. I get it. So yeah, I do. I don't know.

We'll see. I've got some really big exciting plans that haven't announced publicly yet coming up in the next couple years. And so we'll see what transpires. I'm open, though. I'm open. I was at, I love live music.

I was at an Ashley McBride concert a couple weeks ago and reminded me of that when you were talking in a friend with me. And she has a song called single at the same time. And, like, I'm doing good. I don't like to cry in public. I'm doing good. And then she's over there just like tears rolling out her eyes.

I got to give you a hug. You know, because it was that. Yeah. And I don't disagree with you. I do believe their soul ties. That was something in Rachel and I had to work through was like, okay, how do we sever these one at a time? And then sometimes when you're cutting one of those, it's like if you feel the

reperpiration through everything else, you know? And it was just like, so that was, you all, counseling is not for the faint apart. Like, it's hard work. Healing is hard, but it's so, so worth it. And I'm on the other side of this now. But for whatever, you know, man is in my future, I think just recognizing the difference between me then and may now, and people could say, yeah, but you were supposedly a person

of faith and great character. I mean, integrity has always been my number one core value. And I'll be honest with you, I didn't struggle with shame. I feel like a lot of women just struggle with shame in general. I didn't struggle with shame near as much as I struggled with violating my own core value of integrity. How do you know it's your biggest one? Because, like, there's nothing that makes me angrier in the sense.

world, then someone not telling me the truth or the whole truth. And somehow in some jackdempt way, I justified living this lie. Like, I even told him, if your wife or anybody else ever asked me, sorry, but the cat's out of the back. Like, I cannot look at somebody and blatantly lie, but somehow I justified living the lie. And so that was a huge piece for me to work through with counseling. But the biggest difference between me then and me now is I have massive accountability in my life now. Like, I have three women that I am so close to that they have the freedom. I've given them the freedom. Like I've asked them, ask me anything, anytime, anywhere, and by the way, you have my location. Like, that's just built an accountability. Like,

you know, I did a video the other day on social, so it's like, never say never. Like, I never in a million years thought, nor did anybody in my little town think that this would be me, nor did I. You know, like, you kind of alluded to it earlier. I don't believe anybody really just wakes up one day and, like, I'm going to go find me somebody else's man. Right. You know, like, it doesn't, it starts with small compromises. And I think for us it was small compromises and conversations. We got really comfortable. And then there was probably some emotional intimacy built at that point. And then we have all this unscheduled time, which Rachel taught me creates intimacy, just in general, whether it's with a friend or a significant other. And then we cross the line. Like, you know, I think people want to be

like, oh, you just made a bad choice. Well, I did make a bad choice after many other small bad choices. You know what I mean? Like it's a domino. It's a compounding effect. So I think that's important is like if somebody is looking in a situation or has been the situation is like tell somebody you would never want to let down hire a professional dissenters third party to help you walk it out and then find your tribe like get you some good people community that won't let you settle for secrecy as the price of being loved right you know and you're worth far far more than that you're worth more than a secret right i would also say that like i believe my favorite definition of grief is that grief is the gap between what we thought would be and what really is.

And I found it incredibly helpful to have somebody, Rachel, help me mitigate that gap. And grief is a beast. I'm not sitting here saying, I'm, I will be healing for the rest of my life. I don't think this is something like this. This is trauma from the professionals. I mean, it also is you're grieving somebody that's still alive,

and I think that's one of the hard. A very, very, very tough thing to do. Yeah, it's trauma. It was an addiction. Like there's so many layers. And like you said, you're not just grieving the loss of a person. There's so many layers that you're grieving. And so I think I'll be healing for the rest of my life.

I will be in therapy for the rest of my life, like willingly, like I want to be because I want to be the best version of me that I can be and never miss the forest for the trees. You know what I'm saying? But mitigating that gap, it was so helpful to have somebody a professional, you know, a grief-informed professional. Help me do that. And I'm not going to sit here and tell you that it doesn't ever hit. It does.

Yeah, of course. moments that like where the hell did that come from? You know, and the emotion. But I'm on course. Yeah. You know, and I'm chasing healing with everything in me with a strong community around me. Hey guys. Don't forget about We're All Insane Plus where you can get access to bonus episodes

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