We're All Insane - Lost My Virginity to My Stepbrother and Got Pregnant

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

#foryou #podcast #ad Merch is live ↓ https://were-all-insane.myshopify.com Feel like your best self again. Visit https://forhers.com/insane to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. Laura shares how she lost her virginity to her much older stepbrother, got pregnant, and had an abortion she instantly regretted. We talk guilt, infertility, believing God was punishing her, and the adoption journey that finally forced her to face it all.Laura's Links:Abortion routing services: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-illinois/patient-resources/whether-youre-in-illinois-or-from-another-stateAngel Adoption (the service we used to adopt and where birthmothers can go to as well): angeladoptioninc.comTiktok: @helloitslbo Time Stamps: 00:00:00 – What happens when you lose your virginity to your stepbrother? 00:01:12 – Why do people stay silent about traumatic family secrets for years? 00:02:48 – Is it normal to carry guilt for something that happened decades ago? 00:04:20 – How does growing up around teen pregnancy shape your fear of becoming one? 00:06:02 – What does it feel like to never feel desired growing up? 00:07:56 – Can attraction happen instantly even when it feels wrong? 00:09:05 – Is it possible to feel chemistry with someone you just met at a family wedding? 00:10:39 – What goes through your mind when your stepbrother kisses you in public? 00:11:52 – Did anyone notice the inappropriate relationship at the wedding? 00:13:58 – Why do taboo relationships sometimes feel more intense? 00:15:18 – How quickly can a secret relationship escalate into sex? 00:16:32 – What is it like losing your virginity later than everyone else? 00:18:28 – What do you do when you find out the man you slept with has a girlfriend? 00:19:59 – Did her parents ever find out about the relationship? 00:21:10 – What happens when someone cuts you off right after intimacy? 00:22:29 – How do you know you’re pregnant before taking a test? 00:23:53 – What happens when you can’t access emergency contraception in time? 00:25:08 – How does shame affect decision-making during an unplanned pregnancy? 00:26:35 – What does it feel like when the father pressures you to get an abortion? 00:29:34 – Why do some men act flirty even when paying for an abortion? 00:31:13 – What actually happens during an abortion procedure? 00:33:34 – Can you regret an abortion immediately after it happens? 00:36:02 – Why do pregnancy jokes trigger panic years later? 00:37:52 – Can religion cause lifelong fear after an abortion? 00:39:15 – Why do some couples struggle with infertility after trauma? 00:41:28 – Is it possible to be pro-choice but regret your own abortion? 00:43:56 – What does repeated adoption failure do to your mental health? 00:52:32 – How can therapy help release guilt tied to reproductive trauma? If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me DeVora. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. My name is Laura. I have a story about kind of my whole life, but really when it comes down to it, it is the story of me losing my virginity to my stepbrother, who was much older than me, and ending up pregnant. And how my decisions from that situation kind of shaped my life for many years to come and how I really internalized and allowed myself guilt for a really, really long time.

And I think I'm at the point where I am in a much better place. I am not healed, but I'm like at terms and at peace with everything that happened. And it's very much something that happened and is behind me. Yeah. So when it comes down to it, I did a lot of things that I regret, but in the end, it brought me to where I am now. And I think, too, you know, with a topic like this, I feel like it goes one of two ways. Like, you either don't talk about it at all. And I'm sure there are some people that completely disassociate from it.

Or you hold it in. You have that guilt, you know, because it's something that, why would you want to talk about it, you know? Yeah. So the fact that you're able to speak out about it. And I guess, you know, you'll get into it, obviously, for those listening. But the fact that you're able to openly talk about something traumatic that happened to you and how, and it's so true. You know, when things happen to us, they do shape our lives. And while they don't define us, they might like set the tone for a big chunk, you know.

So I think it's so amazing that you're willing and able now, you know, to speak out about that. and if there's anybody, because I always say there's so many people that can relate to things, different portions of things. And I think it's really, really important. So you should give yourself a lot of credit for that. Even though you're not, no one, I don't think anyone's ever completely healed because things are always happening in our life. That's part of life.

But to get to a place that you're at is a pretty big step in a healing journey. And I don't talk about this. Right. So I recently shared the story with my therapist just to be able to say it again to make sure that I still remembered it and that I wasn't going to just forget big parts of it or totally break down in the middle of it or anything. But before I told her about it, it had been years since the last time I spoke about it. And not a lot of people in my family know. Very few people outside of my family know. Pretty much it's the people who were around me during the time that it happened.

And then also like my husband and one or two other people. So did you decide after just seeing the show? Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. I love that. That's what I tell people all the time. I'm like that is another.

There's so many full circle things about it. But it's things like that where it's like people. that never have told their story or thought I never would, they, the people that come on here, they give so many people courage and confidence to own their story and not let it own them. And that's like, I feel like you are an incredible example. That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, I listened to, I found it on TikTok.

And that's kind of where I found a couple snippets. And then I was like, oh, there's a podcast. I'll listen to the podcast. So I've listened to a lot, like most of the episodes, honestly, in the podcast. And I was just listening to one on the way. home from work one day. And I was like, I think I should. Yeah. I think I should try to share my story here. That's amazing. That literally makes me tear at. I love that. That is incredible. It makes me so happy. Okay. Keep going. Yeah. So I'm going to start kind of in my childhood and kind of work up to

like how this happened in the first place. So I am the youngest of five children. And my three sisters are a lot older. They're half sisters, a lot older than me. And then my brother and I are very close in age. We're only two years apart. And he's my full brother. Growing up, I was very shy. I was the kind of person who only spoke to my mom and my brother. And if my dad, if I had to speak to my dad, I would speak to him.

But I was always very, like, shy around him, too. So really, it was just my mom and my brother. And my sisters did not live with us. In my memory, I don't remember them ever living with us. I know when I was born, like they were around. But one thing growing up that I always remembered and I always felt pressure on was the fact that my sisters and my mom were all teen moms. So I love my sisters to death. I think that they are the strongest women and my mother, the strongest women I've ever met.

But I always felt like you can't end up that way. you can't be the person who also gets pregnant when you're a teenager and not finish school or go an alternate path and then have to finish school later or try extra hard. Like I feel like my parents did everything to set my brother up and the two of us up for success, for us to have a privileged life in order to avoid that. So my job growing up was to do well in school. get into a good college, make a good career, and, like, be the perfect kid. Yeah.

And I feel like a lot of that is internalized. It's not necessarily, my mom wasn't brinkling down my neck, making sure that I never got teen pregnant. It was just something that I heard a lot and I knew how difficult it was for them. So I didn't want to be like that. I was going to be the perfect kid and do everything right. I also, with my friends growing up, I had a group of really close friends. There were four girls and four boys that throughout like grade school, middle school, we were all very close to each other.

And we were also close during high school as well. And I was never like the pretty one or the fun one or the social one. I just felt like I weighed more than them. I've always weighed more than everybody else in my whole life. even looking back I did not weigh that much. I was very much an average size, but I always felt bigger. I had really bad acne, and I always felt like I was just not somebody that was popular, not somebody who was like good with boys or anything like that.

So throughout high school and even into college, I was never really romantically pursued by anybody or, or even if it happened, it was something where, like, I didn't like them back or I didn't know that they liked me or anything like that. So I never really had relationships in high school. In college, everybody was more focused on studies. I went to a college that was very notorious for people not dating. And everybody, like, we're all nerds, we're heads down kind of thing. So it just wasn't a thing that happened that often.

And so even in the transition from high school or college, I never really felt desired. I always wanted people, but I never, you know, I was never like back. I never had crushed it back or anything like that. Or if I did, it just went right over my head. So I met my stepbrother Matt when I was late in college like six weeks away from graduation. So, I mean, at this point, I had done everything right in my life. I went to my dream college. I was going to graduate in six weeks.

I didn't have a job yet, but I'm like, everything's going to be great. Like, I did everything I was supposed to do. And then it was actually at my dad's wedding to Matt's mom. So my parents had gotten divorced a couple of years earlier. That was a whole thing, but it's not really relevant, except for the fact that they got divorced and that's how it is. So it was like April. I go to my dad's house for the weekend because they're getting married.

It's going to be this beautiful thing in the church. And then I get to meet her family for the first time. And so her two sons were there. And one of them, he was married. He had a kid. Kid was adorable. And the other one is Matt, who I was 21 and he was 37. And right away, we had dinner, like all of them.

family had dinner at my dad's house. And it was just some kind of like attraction, kind of, some kind of spark. Like I remember somebody gave a toast or like said a prayer or something before we all had dinner. And then like he and I like locked eyes. And he was just like smirking about something that was about love because they were having a toast about love because it was a wedding weekend. And so I was like, oh, I think he likes me. And this is kind of a big deal because one, I think he's hot. and two, he's older than me and he's cool and he's like successful and he actually likes me, but 21 year old. Like, I've never, I've been in like very minor relationships.

I've kind of dated around at this point, but I've never been in a serious relationship. I've never had what I consider a boyfriend up until this point. So I'm like, wow, this is like never happened before. And this was the first time you met him. First time I met him. So I didn't know anything about him except for him just being my new stepmom's son. And so the very first time that we met and then the next day is when our parents got married. And then at the reception, he kissed me.

And I was like, oh, man, this is happening. And I remember I was texting my friends back at school. And I was like, oh my God, I met this guy and he kissed me and this is so cool. And they're like, okay, just be careful, all this stuff. And I was not careful. And I was not thinking to be careful. I was just very much thinking this guy likes me. This is great.

I'm super happy. Now, quick question. were you did you have any thoughts at this time of being nervous of like well he's my stepbrother like no one can find out or were you kind of just like in this trance of like like you said like he likes me and i think he's hot i never thought anything about him being my stepbrother okay it was something where yes yes he is or technically it is but and it's hard too because you just met him it's not like you had like this brother-sister relationship like leading up to it.

And he was so much older than me. Right. I didn't think of anything. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah. So the kiss, did he pull you aside? Like, was it private? No.

It was so not private. It was like on the dance floor at the wedding reception. Did anyone see? Yeah. I remember my aunt. So my dad's sister was like, well, stay away from him. Yeah. She was like, oh, what's going on there?

And I'm like, I don't know. You tell me. I don't know what's going on. All I know is that this is neat. Wow. Okay, so it wasn't like secretive at all. No, not really. Okay.

Hi guys, it's me, Devorah. I am so excited to finally share this with you all. I've officially launched a new subscription channel called We're All Insane Plus, where inside you will get access to never before heard bonus episodes, all podcast episodes completely commercial free. And my brand new show, we're all healing, where I sit down with experts, therapists, authors and healers to talk about how we actually process pain, reconnect with our true selves,

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compounded drug products are not approved or evaluated for safety, effectiveness, or quality by the FDA. Prescription is required. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on products and pan purchased. And I don't know who saw. I was very much in my own bubble. It was.

But it was. Okay. Totally in public in front of everybody. Like, everybody was in the room. Yeah. So who knows who actually saw anything? And it's hard too, you know, like I feel like there is a very real thing about not choosing who we have an attraction to, not choosing who that spark comes with.

You know what I mean? So it's like some people have never felt that in their lives. It sucks for you. But like, that is a real thing. And sometimes two people just connect without words, without any, like it just, it happens. You know, maybe not in the best of circumstances sometimes, but it does. Yeah. So I was staying that evening at my uncle's house.

Okay. And Matt was staying back at my dad's house. Mm-hmm. And he invited me to go sightseeing with them. So this is in Chicago. Matt and his brother and, like, that whole group had never really been. into Chicago before, hadn't seen anything. So he invited me to go out with them the next day. And I said, okay, but all of my stuff is still at my uncle's house. My uncle actually went back

to his house, got my suitcase, brought it over so that I could go back to my dad's house and spend the night there. So my dad and my new stepmom, they went to a hotel for a couple of days to have their own private time. And then I was back at the house with Matt and with my other stepbrother and like his family. So I was going to sleep on the couch or Matt. One of us was going to sleep on the couch. And then that didn't happen. We ended up like as soon as everybody else like went to bed and left like we started making

out and then we went to bed and then we had sex with each other. And then he was your first. He was my first. I didn't tell him that. I was like terrified that he would know. Yeah. And that like this. Because at this point like I had learned a little bit more about him.

Apparently he had been married before. I was like, oh crap, he's been married before. He's like knows what he's doing. Yeah. I have no idea what I'm doing. But I mean, it was it was fine. It was like my first time and it was good and I enjoyed it. And everything was great.

And then the next day, for some reason my stepmom came with us. But not my dad. I don't know where my dad was. But it was, so my two stepbrothers, my stepmom and I, and Matt is like very openly, like, arm around me, kissing me right in front of the stepmom. So, like, not hiding it at all. And at one point, he even asked, like, he even asked his mom. He was like, are you okay with this? Is this okay?

And she was like, whatever. I don't care. I was like, okay. Huh. But it was also super creepy. Like, this guy is kind of a creep. He totally was excited about calling me his little sister and referring to me that way and being like, oh, you're my little sis. Oh, oh, I'm going to protect you, little sis.

But not really. Like, he was very drawn to that. Right. Like, it wasn't like it was just. Okay, we really like each other. It's a spark. It was kind of like that. But then also this kind of fetish almost. Fetish, taboo kind of thing. Right. I mean, for some people, that gets him off. Yeah. So he was very. And that started like right away. That started right away. Okay. He was very into it. And then while we're out like doing some tours and like seeing some stuff in Chicago,

go, I find out, like, kind of passively that he has a girlfriend and that this is like a weekend fling thing. And I'm like, did I hear that right? Yeah. That he has a girlfriend. And I'm like petrified at this point. I don't know what to say. I've never been in this situation before.

I don't know what to do. And I was like, I'm just going to ignore that for now. I'm just going to have a good day. I'm going back to school tomorrow. It's, you know, everything will be fine. We're fine. And then we'll just see where this goes from here. Because, like, he lived back.

So my family growing up lived in Florida. And then I was in school in Chicago. So, like, I grew up in Florida, moved to Chicago. My dad moved to Chicago after the divorce. So he lived in Florida. So he wasn't close. I knew that this wasn't going to be, like, long time. term. A long term serious thing. I remember telling him that I was going to miss him. And he was like,

oh, that's sweet. Right. He was not, not into it. Very dismissive, very like, oh, you're so young. Yeah. Kind of thing. I'm like, well, that's great. And so after we do all the sightseeing, we go back to our dad's house and we do sleep together again. And then, The next day, I'm leaving to go back to school. Now, was your dad aware of this? I don't know. And even to this day, I don't know. Okay.

My assumption is that my stepmom told him at some point. Okay. Because she was very aware. But I also, knowing her would not be surprised if she didn't say anything. She had a tendency to be a bit of a secretive person. Hey, I'm Jeremy Schwartz from American Criminal. On this season, robbery gone wrong or cold-blooded, murder. Either way, Boston will never be the same. Listen to American Criminal, the murder of Carol

Stewart, wherever you get your podcasts, or to get early ad free access, subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at American Criminal.com. Keep things from my dad. Spoiler alert, they did not stay married for super long. They were only married for a couple of years before they split up. But I don't thing my dad ever knew. Okay. I recently told my brother who was there. He was present for this whole thing. He wasn't at the house, but he was around. And he seemed a little bit protective at first. When we were still at the wedding, he seemed a little protective of me and everything and just being near Matt. But I recently told him, like just a couple of months ago, I told him. And he was like, yeah, I had no idea. Wow. Okay. So he had no idea. But I said goodbye I met. I went back to school. He went back

to Florida. And he had told me he travels a lot for work and he would love to like fly me out to where he's traveling and like have weekends with me or things like that. And so in my mind, I'm like, oh, I guess that's fine. You know, I'm not seeing anybody else. I'm young. I don't really care. So, and I like him. Yeah. So I think that's fine. And then a couple of days later, I don't really hear from him. This is 2007.

So we can text each other, but people aren't really texting yet. I called him once, but I got like his machine and he never called me back kind of thing. But like he emailed me a couple of times during this like interim period. And then two or three days before my birthday. So it's two weeks later. So it's almost my birthday. Right before my birthday, he sends me an email and he says, this isn't going to work out. See ya, kind of thing.

And I'm like, well, that's great. That kind of sucks, but, you know, I kind of, like, what was I thinking? Like, I didn't really expect this to go on. And I knew that he was with somebody. And I was just like, that's fine, whatever. But at the same time, I'm thinking, I think I might be pregnant. Like, just have this. like inkling in my brain. I think that I think I might be pregnant. And so I'm in college. So I go to,

first I go to the like drugstore and just get a pregnancy test and I take it. And I think I see a line. And then I was in a sorority house at this time. So I go to one of my sisters. And I'm like, what do you, what do you think? What do you think you see here? And she's like, I don't think so. I I think it's negative. And I'm like, I don't know. So I go to the college's, like, health center and have them give me a pregnancy test. And they're like, yes, it's positive. Okay.

Well, he just broke up with me yesterday. So this isn't great. So I'm assuming you guys did not use protection. And he just did his thing. He just did his thing. And that's just crazy. Like, you know that he just wouldn't. He didn't think about it.

Yeah. Like, he didn't bring it up. I never brought it up either. Or asked like, oh, are you on birth control? No, nothing. No conversation whatsoever. And even so afterwards, I told a couple of my friends, I was like, oh, we slept together. And it was a whole, like, I was so excited about it because I, like, lost my virginity.

And it was so cool. And this guy was so cool. And they were like, did you use protection? I was like, no. You should get a morning after pill. And I was like, yeah, you're probably right. And when I went back to school, so again, it's 2007. You can get the morning after pill at a pharmacy, but you have to, like, go to the pharmacy

and ask for it. So I went to the pharmacy. I asked for it. And they didn't have any. Wow. Okay. And I was like, okay, bye. And then I just never did anything.

Damn. That's crazy. Yeah, it was crazy. And so that's kind of how that very obviously happens. We did nothing. I didn't take a morning after pill. very obviously, like, you're going to get pregnant if you're at the right time. Yeah.

So I did. And I had no idea what to do. So at this point, it's mid-May, like early mid-May. And I'm graduating in mid-June. And I don't have a job. I don't even have really a place to live at this point because I could live with my dad, but I don't really get along very well with him. and my stepmom, and they just got married.

So I don't really want to move in with them. And they don't really have room for me either. My mom, who I'm very close to, she and I were very apart at this time because she was in a relationship where I didn't really like the other person that much. And they were going to move to Arkansas. And I didn't want to move to Arkansas. I knew nothing there. I had no connections there whatsoever.

So I didn't want to move back in with her because I didn't want to go to Arkansas and especially when she was with somebody who I didn't really like and we didn't get along. So at this point, I don't really have a place to live. I don't have a job. And now I'm pregnant and I'm freaking out. And again, I'm starting to think of all of the,

the things in my life that I was supposed to be the best at or I was supposed to be good for it. And one of them was not getting pregnant, but then I did. And I felt so ashamed of myself. And I had no idea how I was going to tell my mom and disappoint her and tell her, hey, I'm pregnant. Just like everybody else, like, I'm like, sorry. I know you want me to turn out different. And I know I tried to do everything to turn out different, but I ended up in the same place as everybody else. Now, when you found out, did you tell him right away? Or did you? I did.

Okay. And what was his reaction? So I hadn't replied yet to his breakup email. So I replied and was like, hey, can you call me? We need to talk. And I told him on the phone. And he's like, well, I guess I have to break up with my girlfriend. I was like, if you want, I'm not saying, we need to talk.

have to be together. And I don't think he was saying that we should be together or in any way. But he was like, well, I cheated on her and now you're pregnant. So I'm definitely going to break up with her. But he said, I think you should get rid of it. I don't think you should have this baby. And I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And then he said that. And I was like, well, I kind of guess that I should do that. But at the same time, I was like, well, I kind of want to keep it. But then, like, how am I going to tell my family? And I feel like, too, it's so hard because you were so naive in that realm of things. You know, like, it was so much at once.

And you had no understanding experience under your belt with it. And then on top of it, you guys aren't together. He's telling you to get rid of it. What else? Like, you know what I mean? Just like, it wouldn't. It's hard. You know, it's like in that moment, I feel like anyone would just be like, all right, let me just not then, you know?

Right. And so I didn't have any sort of like moral dilemma about an abortion. I grew up Catholic. My family was very Catholic. I went to Catholic school my whole life. And obviously, they are very pro-life. And that is very much how they feel. But like, for me, it just didn't.

I didn't really have a side. one way or another. There's more so like what's best for me in my life now. Right. So I didn't necessarily have a moral dilemma about it. It was more that I just didn't know if I wanted to keep it or not. And so I asked him, I was like, if I do decide to keep this baby, are you going to help me financially? Like what is your role going to be?

And he very much hedged the question. And he was very adamant, like, no, you should get rid of it. And he said, I've been in this. situation before, I think you should get rid of it. Okay. So this isn't his first time doing something like this. And he has a very strong opinion about it. I was like, fine. Well, I'm a broke college student. I need you to pay for it. And he said, okay. So I already had a trip to Florida planned, already planned, booked, and everything to go see friends. Okay. So I flew down to Florida. And then, he lived in the same area.

So I was staying with her friend. He came over and gave me a check essentially to pay for the abortion. Was he flirty at all? He was. Oh my gosh. I'm so incensed about this because men, men. So I'm at my friend's house. It's just me and her there and she's still sleeping.

It's kind of early in the morning. So she's in her bedroom still sleeping. And I'm out in the living room watching TV. And he comes up. up like the walkway to the house. And I remember looking at him being like, why am I attracted to this man? And I just felt nothing for him whatsoever.

He comes in. I'm thinking he's just going to like give me money and leave. No, he comes in, he sits down. I remember there's a music video playing on the TV and it's like very flirty and very sexual. And he's just kind of like giving me the eyebrows. And I'm like, are you serious? right now. You're here to give me money for an abortion, not to hook up again. And obviously,

he's a man. So he's like, well, you're not going to get more pregnant. Like, no. And we definitely did not do anything because I was, I was done with it at this point. I was like, give me the money and get the hell out. Yeah. And I remember after he left, my friend came out of her room. And I was like, do you believe this man just tried to have stacks with me right now? Yeah. Oh my God. A piece of work. Yeah. So went back to school and it was a couple of days before graduation at this point. And I had an appointment. So it was like the week of graduation. So I'm going to graduate on like Friday or Saturday and it's like Thursday. And I go to my appointment. And to save money, I wanted to be awake during the procedure because it was like $200 more if they like knock you out. And it was a whole. horrifying procedure. Not in the sense that like... Are you comfortable talking about it?

Yeah. Okay. Not in the sense like it was like, you know, violent or like anything like that or that I had a big fear of it. It was just, I remember during the procedure, I felt like I was going to die. Like something was going on. I don't know if I was having a panic attack, which very, very much could have been this case. or maybe I just wasn't breathing properly, but I felt like I am dying right now.

Was it painful? No. Okay. There was no pain whatsoever. Like I could feel like I could hear it and I could kind of feel like going around. But like I couldn't, there was no pain whatsoever. And then I just, I felt like my soul was like leaving. Like an out of body experience.

Yeah. And there was somebody there holding my hand because I was there alone. Right. Like most of my friends weren't on campus anymore because it was grandkids. graduation week. And then my friends who were there on campus for, like, their families were there for graduation. So, like, nobody was going to come with me at this point. So I went by myself. And there was just a woman there who was just a nurse or an aide or something like that. And she, her whole job was just to hold my hand. And she was talking to me and looking me in my

eyes and be, like, you're fine. Come back. You're good. Like, just kind of keeping me grounded. But I remember thinking that, like, I'm going to die. Yeah. But it didn't last very long. I got my wits about me. I was able to calm down enough and everything went medically fine. How long is that procedure? Is it quick?

It was pretty quick. Okay. It was just a couple minutes. Wow. Yeah. Very quick. It was kind of like they numb you up. They go in there.

They do something. You're done. It is crazy. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And did you feel, I know that you felt during, you know, like you were going to die. Did you feel any sadness?

So not at that moment. And then I sat up and I had like when you know, when you have your period and like you feel it coming out. You feel your blood coming out. I sat up and I felt I felt myself having what, you know, what essentially is a period. And I remember being like this. was the wrong decision. And it was too late, obviously, it was done. It was over.

But I remember thinking, like, I sat up and I was like, why did I do that? That was not the right thing to do. Why did I do that? And I was very, like, I immediately regretted it, like, instantaneously regretted it. And that is the start of the guilt. So, like, the recovery from it was,

just like a period. They give you some medication and stuff to take so that you don't get an infection. But for the most part, it's just like kind of having a bad period. And so I just remember going back to the house I was living in just for a couple more days and then just feeling this overwhelming, like, regret. Like the whole train ride home, getting, like walking back to my house, going back in the house and then being alone. And there's nobody there because it's, you.

you know, graduation week. So there's really not a lot of people there. And just being like, what the hell did I just do? Why did I make that decision? And that's kind of like the whole start of like the after. I keep thinking of it as after, like everything in my life before and after. And at this point, I still don't have a job, but I have a place to live. My sister asked me to move in with her.

She just called me up kind of randomly. and it was just like, hey, do you have a job? Why don't you come live with me? And you can try to find a job while you're here. So I had a place to live. I went by her. I did not tell her. I didn't tell anybody. So like even that weekend, like all my family was there for my graduation. There was like beautiful time, like pictures and all this stuff. And I'm just thinking like the whole time like I just had an abortion and I'm horrible and I can't believe I just did that. and went to go live with my sister and I was extremely depressed for those first couple of months afterwards. I remember I went to go see a movie with my nephew and his friend and for whatever reason I had to get up and pee a couple of times like just drink too much water or whatever.

And at one point I was like, okay, I'm going to go get up and pee. And one of them was like, are you pregnant? Like, why do you keep peeing? And I'm just like, shock. Like, total shock like all the blood drains from my face and i'm just like i cannot believe you just ask me that and i'm like i had to like run away and like go cry about it because i just couldn't believe it like those kind of things just like trigger you and you don't expect them and then i was extremely triggered from that and i had not a serious pain attack but a mild panic attack from from that Did Matt ever ask you how it went? I never spoke to him again.

After he gave you the money. It's crazy. And I mean, that's kind of a lie. He did send me a Facebook message many years later. Like I would say like three or four years later. I was just like, hey, how are you? Haven't heard from you a while. Just want to see how you're doing.

I want to see if you want to reconnect. And I sent him this long message back that was like, I have been severely traumatized by you and I never want to see you again. Did he respond? No. I think I blocked him before he could. I just sent it and I was like, don't ever contact me again. And he never did.

And I haven't spoken to him since. Really? He doesn't even grasp or understand what he calls. He has no idea. No. So I'm having a lot of regret about this. And I'm thinking with my. lifelong Catholic education, I'm like, God is going to punish me for doing this. So I am going to get punished

in some way. Like, God always forgive. So he's going to forgive me, but just like any parents, they're going to forgive you, but they're still going to punish you. And God is going to punish me, and I'm never going to be able to have kids ever. I'm never going to have my own kid. I'm never going to get pregnant again. That's like, this is going to be my punishment for the rest of my life because I did this. So that's just something I thought. That's something that I internalized on myself and put on myself from that point on. While I'm living with my sister, I get a job.

I meet my husband. So it's been about six months since graduation when my husband and I start dating. And he's just amazing. I mean, we're still, it's been 15 years we've been married. Well, congratulations. Yeah. like he's amazing and I love him to death. Like he is wonderful.

I did tell him kind of early in the relationship about Matt and about the whole situation. And he was like, I'm so sorry. You went through that. And I was like, what happens if like you get me pregnant? And he's like, well, I'll marry you. I'm like, oh my gosh. That's amazing because I want to marry you anyway. So we get married around like two and a half years after we start dating.

So like halfway through that we get engaged, then we get married. And we're married for a year or two before we decide we want to have kids. So we go, I get off of birth control. I start trying to have kids with him and it just doesn't happen. And he goes to see a fertility specialist. I go as well. They deem that there's nothing wrong with me, but there's something wrong with like his like sperm count mobility, whatever. I don't really know, but I know that it's just unlikely to happen naturally.

So they put me on like these meds that make me like extra fertile. They put him on some kind of regimen so that he can be extra fertile. And they're like, go try it for a while. And we try for a while. And then I think that put a big strain on our marriage because we were trying and and nothing and trying and nothing and trying and nothing. So ultimately we were like, we can't do this naturally. So we have a couple of options in front of us.

we could go IVF or we could go adoption. And at this point, were you blaming yourself? Yes. Okay. The whole time I'm blaming myself. I like this is because of what I did. This is my fault. And I am not as severely depressed as I was like for those first couple of months

afterwards, but anything abortion related triggered me very, very badly. So a commercial on TV, a plot point in a show is very common. There would be like protest, random protests somewhere in town and we would drive by them. I remember I was on the phone with my husband on the way home from work. I was like just on my way home talking to him. And a truck goes by with like an anti-abortion sign on the truck. And I just break down into tears. I have to pull over.

I am completely annihilated. Like, I cannot even get myself together. And I'm crying on the phone with him for a long time until I'm able to finally pull myself together. And I remember we went to, like, this, like, town festival, and there were abortion protesters outside the festival, and I couldn't go in. We went back to the car, went back home,

because I immediately started crying. So it was an extreme trigger for me throughout this whole time. and I am just, you know, this is my fault. I did this. I made this decision. It is totally my fault. And something I do want to make clear is that I'm still very much pro-choice at this point. Like, I made this decision.

This is my fault. This is something I should not have done. But I in no way feel like that applies to anybody else. Yeah. That is very much my own internal. decision. Anybody else can do whatever they want. Yeah. But for me, I still, to this day, I feel like it's a wrong decision, even though I've made peace with it at this point. Yeah. I kind of, I still feel that. And there's no, you know, you felt the way you did right, like,

well, during, but then even right after you knew right away. And I don't think that's something that you change your mind on. That's just how you truly felt, you know? And that's just, like you said, that, that's your case. And I think that that's something that like you all you can do is over time make peace with that. But like doesn't mean it's going to change. You know, like, oh, like, never mind. I made the right decision. You know what I mean?

It's just something where you grasp it in many different ways. Right. So we are at kind of a junction where we decide either we want to go IVF or we want to go adoption. And in my mind, I'm thinking I'm never going to be pregnant because I'm being punished. So even if we go IVF, it's not going to work. We're going to spend all this money. Like, logically, it's around the same amount of money to go either path for us. So we're not going to go that way because it's just not going to work for me.

I know it right now, even not considering science or medicine or anything like that. I'm just in my gut, I know that's not going to work. So we decided to go the adoption route. And there's a lot of stuff we have to do to prepare for it. like we bought a house and then we saved up our money and stuff. And then we finally found an agency and everything worked out the way that we wanted it to to start the process for adoption. And we have one of the most unusual adoption cases because we had five adoption failures in a row

before we got our son. And everybody that I spoke to even, we had two separate agencies that we had our kind of like a broker almost where people like the birth mothers contact them and they connect you with a birth family but there's also a separate agency that does all of like the paperwork like the home study and you have to get a foster license technically before you adopt so all of that like bureaucracy kind of stuff is a different agency but everybody I'm talking to it, both agencies are like, I've never seen somebody go through this many failures. And why was it a failure?

So just like multiple different factors? Multiple different factors. And I can kind of talk about them. I won't go into too much detail because they're not my stories to tell. Yeah. You know, and a birth mom has every right to keep her kid for whatever reason up until the point of, when they terminate their rights. And so the very first one, I remember being very skeptical about it.

And my husband being very optimistic about it. So we're in contact with a mom. We have been matched for a while. We're texting her. Everything seems to be going fine. She texts us and says, I'm going into labor. Can you come down? And this is in, we're in Milwaukee.

This is in Chicago. So it's an hour and a half drive. So we drive down there and then we're texting her, what hospital are you at? And she never replies. And then keep trying to contact her. She never replies, never replies. And finally, the agency gets in contact with her

and she decides to keep the child. So that was very devastating for us on multiple ways, but all of them were devastating in multiple levels. but that was the first time it had happened. And Franklin was very, my husband Franklin, was very optimistic about the whole thing. He was like, yeah, this is going to work right now. The baby today, this is going to be great. And I was just like, you know, she has time before she can make her decision.

So I don't want to get excited. Get too excited. So I'm guarded, but he's not and he was crushed. I'm sure. That first time. He had absolutely no idea that it would, not work out. So that did not go well, in my brain, I'm like, well, that's because you're never going to have a baby. So just deal with it. Like, this is going to happen every time. The next one,

we're in Milwaukee. She's in Dallas. We drive all the way down to Dallas. Same situation. Like, we've been talking to her and texting her and all this stuff. We drive down to Dallas. We go to the hospital. She tells us the name of the hospital. We get there and they say that she's not there. There's nobody by that name there. And it's like one o'clock in the morning. We're like, are you So we end up spending the night, try to contact her. She never replies. The agency's trying to contact her. No reply.

She's like, she doesn't have her own phone. She's using our brother's phone. So we are talking to the brother and the brother is like, oh, she's in the hospital. We just, you know, need some time. But it didn't work out. So that also sucked. But that sucked even more because we drove all the way down to Dallas and now we have to drive all the way back. and then we had one where we were on the phone with her and then it didn't work out she didn't pick us

so we had a long conversation we thought that we vibed with her didn't work out so that one didn't hurt as much it was just kind of like oh bummer and then we had one in mississippi and that one was really tough because that that mom we were very close to we had been with her for a long time We were matched with her a couple of months before she had the baby. We talked to her several times. We really connected with her. We went down and saw her in the baby in the hospital. And the baby was born on Christmas Eve.

And she was like, Merry Christmas. Here's your baby. You know, all of this kind of like, my job's done. Here's your baby. You take her. All of this stuff. And then we come back the next day when the baby and her are going to be released. she's different. You can kind of tell like her mood has changed a little bit. And she's like,

can I just take the baby for a little bit, take her out of the hospital? We're like, okay. And then they call us in a gas station parking lot, they like hand over the baby to us. And they're like, here you go. Here's the baby. We're done. We had some time with her. Said goodbye. And now here's your baby. So we have this baby in our possession for like a couple of hours at this point. And I remember trying desperately to connect with this baby, like very much being like, oh, this is our baby. Let me feed her. I'm going to love her. Trying to call her by like the name that we had picked out for her and all the stuff. And I'm just not feeling it. Like, you know, you think about like what people stay when they have a baby and like the connection. And even if it's not.

not your baby. Like you have that kind of instant connection between the two of you. And I remember holding this baby and feeding this baby and being like, I just don't. I really want this to work out, but I just don't feel anything for this baby. And I don't know why that was, but it just wasn't there. And we have her for like four or five hours before the mom calls us and says, I want the baby back. That's her right. She hasn't signed the paperwork yet. The paperwork's not going to be signed for another like two days because different states have different times that the mother has to decide on whether or not she's going to keep the baby. So she technically still has two more days. So we give the baby back and then she doesn't show up for the parental right termination.

And we kind of knew it. We kind of knew when we came back that next day and her mood had shifted that She was not going to follow through. And even so, I was like, I don't feel like this is my baby anyway. You could probably, I think you sensed it too. Yeah. So that one really stuck because we had a physical baby in our arms. And then the baby had to be given back and all of this stuff. And at this point, we're at the end of our adoption contract because you have two years on your contract.

And after the two years, you have. have to pay all of the money again. So essentially like to renew it. To renew it. So it's like signing a brand new contract. We're like, do we even want to do that? Because that's a lot of money. Yeah.

And we have to go through all of this again. And are like we're totally bummed at this point. And have gone through so many failures. People are telling us like this is so abnormal. Like this has never happened to any family we've ever worked with before. And I'm like, well, it's because I'm never going to have a big. baby, I know this. Like, in my brain, I'm just like, well, I know, I know all of these are going to feel.

They're never going to work out. And it's around this time, I think maybe actually before we had, before that baby in Mississippi was born, that I went to therapy because I knew like, this is not right. I can't like keep blaming myself. I can't keep having this guilt on myself this whole time. You got to talk about it. I need to talk to somebody about it. So I find a therapist and end up only having three sessions with her.

I only needed three sessions with her. But basically what we talked about was letting go of my abortion and just letting go of that. And stop blaming myself for that and stop having all of these like negative connotations with what had happened. Like blaming yourself. So many years ago. because this is like 2018 at this point. So this is over 10 years since it's happened. And I'm still internalizing it.

And I'm still saying like, I'm never getting pregnant because this is my punishment. I'm never going to have a baby because this is my punishment. This is what is happening to me. And we're going to keep trying, but it's never going to happen. So I went to therapy. The therapist had me write a letter to my baby. And I did.

And I apologize. And I said, it's time to let you go and, you know, goodbye. We're done. And then the next failure happens. And I'm like, I'm still pretty bummed about it. But at the same time, this is the one where I'm like, I'm just not feeling it. And then they come, the agency comes back to us and are like, we can renew your contract for three months and we'll see what happens. But after that, we can't renew it again. You have to, you have to redo the whole thing. And during. that three months is when we get matched with my son's mom. And even so during that time, it's not

that long after the previous failure. It's like only a couple of days, maybe a couple of weeks. And we're like, do we even want to do this right now? And I convinced my husband, I was like, listen, this is probably our last shot because she is not due until after our renewal is over. So it's kind of like now this is it. Either we take this or we don't have another chance unless we want to decide to pay all the money again. And at this point, we're like we're not going to do that. We had made that decision we were going to take a break at least before considering it again. So we make a decision.

We're like, okay, well, we'll stay with her. we'll accept this match and we'll see if it works out. And we talked to her several times. We actually went to visit her. This is the only difference between her and all the other ones is we went to visit her while she was still pregnant. So this was in Atlanta. So we flew down to Atlanta, had a nice little weekend, went sightseeing, had dinner with her. It just wasn't anything special.

We just kind of talked to her a little bit about herself and, like, you know, told her a little bit more about us in person and just, like, had a nice dinner and that was really all of our interaction with her. I do think that made a difference in her decision because she got to physically meet us. We weren't just people on a phone that you could ghost at this point. We were real people and I think that helped. So she goes into labor. We drive down to Atlanta and we get there at like one o'clock in the morning. And the baby's in the NICU. He had like that jaundice thing going on. So they had them under lights in the NICU. And so visiting a baby in the NICU is very difficult. You have to have a code from like the mom to be able to even go in and see the baby. And we're like, okay, we don't have a code. It's one o'clock in the morning. The mom is asleep. I don't want to bother her at one o'clock in the morning, but can I please just see the baby? And they were very nice. They had no idea what was going on with an adoption.

They had no idea how to handle it. But they were very nice. And they said, okay, you can go in one at a time and you can see the baby for like five minutes. And so I went in and I looked at the baby and I'm like, that is my son. Wow. Like immediately I'm like, this is my son. And I knew right away. And there was like no questioning whatsoever.

And so the next day we actually meet them in the hospital. and she was very logical. Well, everybody else had been very emotional about their decisions. She was just like, I don't have a car. I don't have a car seat. I don't have anywhere to put this baby. Like, yeah, just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense for me to keep this baby.

Like, what am I going to do with it? I can't even take it home. And so she, they, in Georgia, they signed the paperwork pretty quickly. I think it might be, it's either 24 or 48 hours after birth. But then they still have five days after that to make their decision. So they can kind of like go back on the paperwork for five days afterwards. That's probably so nerve-wracking. I would not like that.

Yeah. It's where we lived in Wisconsin. It was 30 days. Which is crazy because, you know, obviously, like, I understand to give the mother the right. But like, let's take into consideration all the hormones, all the emotion. Yeah. Like, that doesn't mean that that lifestyle would be fit for that child in comparison to people that are adopting because they want to start a family, not because, you know what I mean?

Like, that makes it difficult. And I could go, I could go speak for hours about adoption and how I feel about that. But I will say, like, there are people who probably shouldn't have kept their babies that kept their babies. Right. But in the end, that's not my decision. Yeah. It's their decision to make.

That's the rules. So it is what it is. And I try not to think about it too much because then it'll just make me sad. But with this one, with our son, like, it was very much a black and white. I cannot take care of this baby. You can take care of this baby. Here you go. And it also helped that the baby was in the NICU.

So the baby wasn't right there with her. She didn't have to take care of it. No bonding. Didn't have to bond. She didn't have to worry about it because the baby was. was gone and she could go see it if she wanted to but she didn't have to and i don't i think she went and said goodbye to him before she left the hospital but okay that was it now are they allowed to stay in contact with you guys yes okay so it depends on the type of adoption you choose you can choose an

open or a closed adoption so closed adoption means no contact whatsoever open adoption you make the rules together Okay. So we have her phone number. She has our phone number. If she wants to call us, she can. We know her name. We know where she lives roughly. Like we don't have her address, but we know roughly where she is. So if we wanted to find her, we very easily could. If we wanted to talk to her, we very easily could. Now, how would you feel if she wanted to be a part of your baby's life, let's say like five years, 10 years down the road? I think that's okay. Okay. And so my son has said, six now. He asks about her sometimes and we have pictures of her that we show him and we're like, this is your birth mommy. You grew up in her tummy and then she gave you to us so that we could be your parents. And he's like, I want to meet her. I want to know more about her. And I'm like, well, that's her decision to make at this point. So she checked in a couple of times after he was born, maybe up to about a year.

And then that was it. It was mostly just text. Like, how is you doing? How's this going? That was it. Yeah. Send me a picture. That's really it.

So we haven't spoken to her five years-ish. Okay. And I don't want my son to interact with her until she's ready. So at this point, he's way too young to really understand. that she's not ready. So I'm kind of like hedging that line. But if he's 15 and he's like, I want to meet her, I'm going to be like, okay. We can reach out to her and see how she feels about that.

And again, it's her decision. You can't force yourself upon her. But if you want to talk to her at that point, go ahead. And if she calls us tomorrow and says, I want to talk to my son and be like, okay. And then we'll chat. We'll do FaceTime. we'll go see or I don't know. I'm totally fine with them having some kind of relationship because it is. It is a relationship that could potentially exist and I don't mind that it exists.

Yeah. Like our son is very much aware that we are his parents and that we raise him and that he lives with us and that we love him. But you've got this other family out there that may want to connect with you someday. That's incredible. Yeah. Because a lot of of people I'm sure aren't like that. Yeah. It's hard. It is hard. It's like I think it's worrisome in a lot of ways. It's like you just don't know. You know, so at the end of the day, everybody's just a human. Yeah. You know, and it's difficult. Do you guys want to adopt again? Are you just going to have one you think? No, we're done. Okay. So we do right away when this one with my son was successful and we were bringing him home. We're like, no, we can't go through this again. Okay. Because there's.

no guarantee. Like we can go through five more failures. And then it just takes a toll on you every single time because you prepare yourself for the worst, but then the worst happens. It's draining. And it's draining. And it's just so much, it's a lot of money. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of emotional investment to be able to do that again. So I just don't think that we're going to have any more kids. We're done. And then when he came into, your life, did you feel any more of that guilty feeling or sadness from the abortion? Or do you think that after the sessions with your therapist, you really were able to clear a big chunk of that?

I think my sessions with the therapist really helped. Okay. I think that got me past so much of it. And then having my son in my life and having an adoption that actually was successful. I think kind of sealed the deal like, okay, that chapter of my life is over. Yeah. And now I'm going to move forward with my son. And I think, too, to look at it in a way of like, I did something so good.

You know, like I'm giving a child a great life. Yeah. You know, that wouldn't have otherwise, maybe, maybe not have had that, you know? And I think that's such a rewarding and special thing to do. Yeah. And I think it's just it worked out the way that it was supposed to. And a lot of things went right too when it happened. So had any of those previous adoptions worked out,

I wouldn't have had a paid maternity leave because my job didn't offer it for adoption specifically. And then the year Alex was born. So the last baby was born on Christmas Eve and Alex was born in April, the year that he was born was the first year that they allowed paid maternity leave for adoption. So I was like, all right, I get paid for my leave. And you couldn't really connect with him and spend that time. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, so I got my paid leave.

I got all, I got 12 weeks with him before we put him in daycare. Like everything just worked out the way it was supposed to. And he is so much my son. There's no other mommy for him. Like he has a birth mom. That's great, but I am his mom. Right. And he is mine.

Yeah. And then, so that was six years ago. Mm-hmm. And then it was just recently that you kind of had, I guess, this thought of kind of, not resurfacing, but speaking out about just kind of your whole journey of it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I just felt like it was.

The time. It was the time. And it was something that I could share and maybe somebody could resonate with it. Maybe somebody who either had gone through or is going through a similar situation can feel. Yeah. Even just like the adoption aspect or like, you know, like anything. Because, you know, I really have been wanting to have somebody on the show to speak about the aftermath and the effects of an abortion. Because, you know, like, I think that some people might get one and feel like, okay, this was the right decision. Even if they do feel that way, it could still hurt. And I think that it's important for people to know that it isn't just this cut and dry thing.

And sometimes you don't even know how it's going to make you feel until after you do it, which is the hard part. You know, like it can seem like a very black and white situation and then you do it. And that is a big thing. You know, it's a big decision. And it's scary and there's a lot of emotions held there. And I think that there's so many, I tell people this too. I know I said it kind of in the beginning and every other episode as well and on my calls.

but, you know, there's always somebody that can relate to different parts of your story, different aspects of your story. And that's, you know, the beauty of sharing stories, sharing different aspects of it. That's why when I invite people on this show, I'm like, please share every part of your life, you know, because there's somebody that will hear that and be like, I felt that way or I went through that. And it's important. And even with the failure aspect of, you know, the adoption, It's like that could easily be something where you just want to give up because it is so draining. Right. But the outcome was so beautiful, you know, and I know it's like people don't always want to hear it,

but things do happen for a reason. Things don't work out and do work out to get you to where you're supposed to be. And I think that, you know, once again, kind of going back to what I said in the beginning as well, you know, you've built this beautiful life for yourself. You know, you have your family. You could keep all this in the past. And while it is there, you know, I think there's something. incredible about taking what happened and using it now to help others, you know, and let people

know they aren't alone. Because, you know, it's, it's so easy to just, you know, life is busy. It's very easy to just keep the ball rolling, push things in the back, push things in the back. But it is better to talk about things, you know, even if it is just a few therapy sessions. Like, it's not, nobody's saying, like, you have to be dedicated and committed to speaking to somebody every day for the rest of your life. But I think acknowledging that it's not fair for you to hold the guilt. It's not like life's too short. You know, like it's not fair to beat ourselves up, have guilt, have blame, anything. Because that takes away from other aspects of our lives, from ourselves, from our partner, from children, anything. So I think that it's amazing that you

made that decision as well. Because that's scary too, you know, like even to open up old wounds and be like, all right, where do I start? Like, let me just pour it all out, you know? And I think there is something empowering about that because you are able to speak out about it and be like, wow, like, I'm stronger than I thought that I'm able to go back through these details because it isn't always an easy thing to do. Yeah, it's not always easy. And I think it's something that it's easier to talk to a stranger about.

Yeah. Than to my family because I don't. Absolutely. Because there's no, there's not as much. much judgment there. It's like they're very unbiased. Like, just tell me your story kind of thing. Yeah, and I don't have to worry about them thinking about it later or bringing it up later or something like that. So there are people in my family that I've opened up to about it since then. Certain people I have not, certain people who might learn from it from this. But it is what it is.

And we'll talk about it if we need to talk about it. But I think it was more important for me to just talk about it in general because I feel like somebody else is going to go through this. Even if it's just one part of my story, somebody else is going to go through this. Right. And like I said, it really is something that, I mean, it's crazy, but like it happens every day. You know what I mean? And I think that there are so many different emotions or lack of emotions that people. And maybe the other potential too is somebody might make that decision, not feel anything. And then five years down the road, it hits them. You know, like you never know how you're going to react to something, when it's going to come back up.

And I think that it's okay to, you can regret things, but still not blame yourself. Right. Because I mean, we have to be gentle with ourselves. You know, at the end of the day where we have to make decisions sometimes in that moment. And it's very much based on where we are in life, the people around us, the support we have, don't have. And even though sometimes it's decisions that we make, there's a lot more that goes into it. Right. And it's not, it's just not fair.

But it look where you are now, you know, and it does teach you things. And it allows you to spread awareness and speak out about it. And yeah, honestly, you're an incredible storyteller. Oh, thank you. Of course. Like, it's very, it's so amazing to me when people come and they're like, I've never really shared my story before. and they're like so good at just executing, you know, what they've been through and how they felt

and the different moving parts of it. And I cannot express it enough. I tell people this all the time. It is not an easy thing to do. You know, you're coming to someone. You don't know. So you're telling me. And then you know that like there's a camera there. It's going to be online. You know, so it's incredible. It's important. And there will always, always, always be somebody that will appreciate it and can relate and is so grateful to hear your story. Because like I always say, like, imagine if it was you then. And you could just type something in. and then you just hear this person's story and you're like, damn, that's exactly how I feel better. It makes you feel better. It's like I'm not alone. I'm not a bad person. Like, you know, I, I always, I'm always so impressed with people's

vulnerability when they're able to just sit there and just tell, tell people honestly how something made them feel. Because it changes, it changes the trajectory to so many other people's mindsets about themselves and situations they went through. Well, thank you for having the platforms. Yes, of course. Where is letting me here? It's incredible. Like I, it has taught me so much. I learned so much about people. I learned so much about different situations.

It's funny because I feel like I go through phases where, you know, for a while I was able to really separate it, you know? And then like more recently I'm like more in tune with my emotion. So like I'll feel it more when I'm hearing stories and I'm like, oh God, this is hard. Like my eyes. But no, it's, it's incredible. You know, it teaches me so much. And I'm just so grateful that I have a platform that's growing because of people, real people's stories. You know, like we don't have enough of that.

I always say it's like, yeah, there's like documentaries. There's this and there's that. But it's like the more time that goes on in the world around us, the more scripted and fake things. It's like you don't even really get the real story out. Like I used to love watching things like that. And now I'm like, I watch it. And I'm like, I feel like I don't even really know more about the story or anything. Right.

So that's why I always tell people, I'm like, whatever you feel called to share, like, obviously people have kind of this one chunk of their life, maybe that they're like, okay, this is a story I'm going to share. But I always tell people, I'm like, it's like a book. You know, if you got the book and you just read the middle of it, what's the point? You know, it's like you want to hear someone's background. What kind of led up to this? And then the aftermath, that's so full circle. You know, you get to see, you know, some of the lowest parts of people's lives and then some of the highest parts. You know, and it's so incredible. And for me, I'm able, that's why I like to go into it blindly because I'm like an audience member. I get to hear it. I get to ask. And then, you know, it just allows me to be so open and judgment free. And everyone, I wish the world was more like that because everyone is on their own path.

Like, what is judging you or anybody going to do for me? It's not going to change my life. You know what I mean? So I just don't understand why people are like that. And, you know, my goal is just to make people feel like they can use their voice. and people can just listen and either learn or relate. And it's as simple as that. Like it doesn't have to be anything else, you know?

And it just I think it's very, it's very simple. It's very raw. It's very open. And I just want it to grow for you guys because I'm like, I'm like, I wish I, like a lot of my episodes, you know, I'm like, I wish they'd get more views. Like I want everybody to like hear and see these stories because there's so, there's like thousands of people that can relate to each one. but I want all those thousands of people that I can relate to to get out to them because it's like sometimes that makes the biggest difference. Right.

You know, like just to not feel alone. And I feel like, of course you can go to therapy and that's great. But there's nothing like somebody that just gets it because they went through it too. It's like a different little community there. And I feel like it doesn't even have to be, you know, two people talking. But it's just like, oh, I can hear it and I can support this person and be like, wow, I get how she feels or he feels. and vice versa. And I think that's the beauty in it. And it will reach many people. I'm so proud of you. Thank you so much for coming out here and wanting to share your story. It means so much to me.

Thank you for having me. Of course. Was there anything else you wanted to include? Do you think you got it all? I think I got it all. You did amazing.