We're All Insane - Mother-Daughter Covert Incest

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

Covert incest, also known as emotional incest or psychic incest, refers to a dysfunctional dynamic within a family where a parent relies on their child for emotional support, companionship, or intimacy that should be reserved for adult relationships. Unlike overt forms of incest which involve physical sexual abuse, covert incest involves emotional boundaries being violated, often in subtle or indirect ways. Emily's Links: https://youtu.be/2QSF-OOKOQI?si=mPSHDCMkKM_A745o https://youtu.be/9MDP1eon60g?si=oMMKRiSSSM9orsD5 If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Business Inquiries please contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me Devorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. My name is Emily. I work in crisis response and I'm very passionate about survivor advocacy. Today I'm going to be talking about my own history of sexual violence and childhood trauma. It's pretty extensive. But my goal is to kind of just go through a timeline of growing up and different things I experienced. So we're going to start when I, the first memory I have of being alive in the world, if you picture like a darkened room and a window and

you look through the window, you see this like really overwhelming cityscape. And there's this overwhelming feeling of like, I don't know where I am. Like this isn't home. I don't feel safe. I want my mom. And I have that memory that's so visceral to me. And I think that that memory is from when I was very briefly in foster care from about the age of like one, one and a half. Okay. Yeah. So to give you kind of a general background on kind of the shape of my family, so I was primarily raised by my mom, and she grew up in like a very, like, violent household, you know, a lot of domestic violence, alcoholism. She had, you know, other children before she had me. her youngest she had as a teenager.

But I was the only child she actually ended up raising. So I sort of grew up as an only child, even though I have like half siblings on either side. My biological father's not really like in the picture. So he's not really in a lot of these stories, but I'll kind of share how he comes in later in my life. But neither my mother or my biological father in my life now. The main kind of two people that will talk about is my mom and her longtime boyfriend, and we're going to call him Keith. It's not his real name, but it'll...

It's his name for today. It's his name for today, or, you know, that asshole. So when I was about two years old, my mother had gotten me out of foster care at this point. She basically had lost me because she wanted to give up. another one of my siblings that she wasn't able to take care of due to some developmental needs. But she wanted to keep me. So she ended up doing the work to make that happen and she got me back. So by the time I'm about two years old, she is a waitress, she's struggling on her own, trying to take care of me, trying to pay bills and all of that. And so she is a waitress at this kind of like,

large, like, lobster restaurant. And she meets this man who is, like, 14 years older than her. And, you know, he keeps flirting with her and, like, trying to hit her up. And, you know, she tells me, because I get all this information from her as I'm, like, a bit older, because she likes to give me way too many details about, like, her own trauma and whatnot. But basically, she kind of, like, rejected him a few times, but he was really persistent. In her, her mind, this is really romantic, but looking back, I'm like, was it? Yeah, pretty creepy. A little bit. A little bit, you know, I'm like, I'm boundaries. But eventually she sort of gives in and, you know, kind of agrees to go out with him. So this person, Keith, will call him,

basically starts funding our whole life. So he, like, by the time I am a kindergartner, like five years old, he has moved us to this like kind of wealthy suburb, but in like kind of the poor area of it. And he's helping my mom pay rent and like, you know, kind of all of the bills. And what I don't know and what I'm not going to know for a long time is that he's married and he has four kids. So he moved us to the town where his wife and kids live. So we're like the secret second family and we're like just living alongside his other life. And this is like a major kind of, you know, spot of contention between the two of them. And so my sort of elementary school years, like he was just kind of a figure that like would come and visit and I knew that they were together.

I knew he wasn't like my father. but when I was little, I saw him as like a father figure a bit. And they would fight a lot. And I think as a young child, like that was just sort of like a backdrop to like my childhood. Like, and I think by the time I got to maybe around like fourth grade, I started to understand like what they were saying to each other and like what it meant. And that's when I was like, okay,

that's really messed up and I don't like this. But I will just kind of say like before getting more into their relationship and some of those things that happened, I basically my mom is, you know, she's a very complicated person, she's not the best mom. And I think that because she, you know, mentally wasn't all there, like I think I as a child was kind of put in a lot of like, icky situations where, like, I would get taken advantage of.

And I think that, like, people could tell that, like, I was a child that, like, wasn't protected. And so I experienced, like, throughout my life, like, I've been, like, assaulted, like, or harassed by, like, all different kinds of people. And I think, you know, part of that is being a Hispanic woman, being working class, even though my mom is white.

And so the first time I ever experienced, like, sexual violence was when I was seven. Because my mom, being a, you know, working single mom, I had a lot of different babysitters who would sometimes just be, like, friends of hers from work. And so I actually got assaulted by three boys that were the sons of my mom's co-be. worker. So this, you know, mom was like not keeping obviously a close enough eye on her children, on me. And so basically they like trapped me on a couch and like exposed themselves to me. And like just sort of like laughed about it and like kept me there. And like no one ever like touched me. But like I was super scared and like obviously wanted to leave.

Traumatizing. Very traumatizing. I'm like, wow, men are the worst, you know? And yeah, I think that was the first, that's the first memory I ever have of, like, sexual violence was when I was seven. And the kind of next memory is a year later when I was eight, and this was actually by my mom's boyfriend. So it's kind of an unusual kind of form of, like, violence. It's very sort of like a power trip sort of thing.

Basically, he was having a conversation with me and I was sitting in a chair. And you know how men do that thing where they'll take like a chair, like say like a kitchen chair that has like a back to it? They'll flip it around and kind of straddle it. Yeah. So he did that while I was sitting in a chair. So he's like straddling me and like sitting on me like an eight year old as if he's straddling the chair. And he didn't do anything beyond that, but I'm just like... That's enough.

Yeah, I'm like, you're like right here. Is he saying anything? He was just having a conversation with me. I have no idea, like, to this day. And your mom wasn't in there at the time? No, she was there. Okay. So she just stood there, like, watching it.

She didn't say anything. I looked at her too. Like, I was just kind of like, you know, like, what's up? Like, this is weird. I don't like this. She never said anything. And still messes me up to this day. where I'm just kind of like, you know, you're right there.

You can see it. And I feel like in those moments too, it's kind of like even you just looking at her, that's a moment that you kind of hope that your mom or just that parent figure would just be like absolutely not. Right. Like it's like clearly I'm uncomfortable, right? Like this, like it just crosses a huge line. Yeah. And so basically, so those are kind of early memories of like,

sexual violence. But to give you kind of more of a picture of my mom and Keith's relationship, he was an alcoholic, and so is she. He was a very volatile and angry alcoholic, and she kind of fed into that. Like she kind of got off on it in a weird way. Like she would like to set him off and like sort of like antagonize him. It was very like abusive and toxic. Yeah, very much so.

And around, you know, when I'm in the fifth grade, their fighting just starts to get like a lot, a lot worse. To the point where like she is like kicking him out of the apartment. And like I as like a child as like a 10, 11 year old, I'm like, I have to intervene because the way that he would talk to her was just so disgusting and like disrespectful. that I was like, I physically can't tolerate this. Like, this is not okay.

And so what would happen is I would start to go out, like, from the bedroom that I shared with my mom because we were poor. And I would go out into the living room where they were, like, screaming at each other. And he's, you know, he's like 5, 10, but again, I'm like a small child. He would be fully red in the face, just like raging. And I would walk out there. And I would be like, you know, you can't talk to her like that. That's, this is not okay.

And together, me and my mom would kick him out. We'd be like, you need to leave. And, you know, I would be sobbing. Like, I would be absolutely terrified for my life. Like, I would be like, he could kill me. Like, he could kill both of us right now. And, you know, when he would leave, it would be such a relief. But then, of course, he would come back.

And then my mom would be like, oh, you know, like he loves us. He does a lot for us. You know, like it's okay now, basically. And this really started to mess with me because it's like I couldn't get over like the trauma of, you know, these arguments when they would happen because he would just keep coming back. and kind of the worst incident that ever happened was when I was in the sixth grade. And so this was like, I think, in the month of like a September. And in the middle of the night, I start hearing my mom talking to him. And I'm in the bedroom that I share with her and she's out with him in the living room. and I'm hearing her say things like, you're worse than that other man that I was with,

but I'm not afraid of you. And it was so eerie, like her voice, like it broke my heart because you could tell that she was scared and that she was in a lot of pain, but that she was trying so hard to be strong. And, you know, she would say things like, you know, get off me, like, you know, I'm not afraid of you, but you could tell, like, she was afraid.

And it clearly painted this picture that, like, she was pinned down and he was on top of her. And it was almost scarier that, like, he wasn't saying anything at all because I had no idea, like, what he was doing. And so in my, you know, 11-year-old brain, I'm like, my mom is either being raped or she's about to be raped. And like that is what the moment is right now. Hey, I'm Jeremy Schwartz from American Criminal. On this season, robbery gone wrong or cold-blooded murder. Either way, Boston will never be the same. Listen to American Criminal, the murder of Carol Stewart, wherever you get your podcasts. Or to get early ad free access,

subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at Americancriminal.com. And so, again, in my 11-year-old old brain, I'm like, what the hell can I do? You know, I don't have my own phone. I don't know where her phone is. It's not in the bedroom with me. It's the middle of the night. We live on like a fifth floor, seventh floor of an apartment building. I don't know, like, if I run into the hallway to get help, I'm running past them so he could chase me. So basically there's a deck that is outside of the bedroom and I think, well, what if I like go out onto the deck and like try to jump off and like run for help? So I actually open the window and I get out on the deck and I'm looking like out sort of

in the middle of the night at like all the other apartment buildings. we're kind of in a condominium in a big circle. And so I'm looking out at all of them. And I'm just like, if I jump, I'm going to break my legs. Like, there's just no way I'm too high up. Like, that's not going to work. And then I'm just going to be down there and I can't do anything. And I also just, you know, there's a door off the deck that leads right to the living room.

So I'm staring at that door and I'm just like, this is happening right now. and like I can't leave her there. Like I can't just let this happen. So I get back into my bedroom and I'm like, I have to find a weapon. So I start looking for a weapon and I find this little heart-shaped like rock craft project. It's like one of those things like you put little stones in and then you let it dry. It's like something you would put like in a flower bed or like up like the grower. gravel steps of like your walkway like it's a very like a child made this which i think is so like

symbolic you know but it's heavy and it's hard so i pick it up and i go out there into the living room and i'm holding it like in my hand and i scream i'm like get off her and i swear to god i see a shadow go from being horizontal on the couch to vertical like not like the movement of like like a human man getting up, but like as if it was like a demon, like a like a shadow creature that just sort of like could go like this to this. It was terrifying. And then all of a sudden all the lights come on. And I could tell by like his facial expression and her face as she sat up that like it was

over and that like whatever was happening was done. and that he wasn't going to like attack us. But like before that moment, I was like, this could be the end for me. Like I could die. Like, and I was very conscious of that and I was like willing to do it. Like I was like, I love my mom.

Like I'm not okay with this. I'm not gonna let this happen to her like without a fight. And when those lights come on, finally my body just like releases all of that adrenaline And I'm fully shaking and like hysterically crying because I'm 11. I mean, anyone would, right? But like I'm a little child. Like I'm a sixth grader.

Like I just completely am like inconsolable. And I'm sitting down on the couch and my mom's trying to comfort me. And then this man, you know, has the audacity to sit next to me and try to put his arm around me after he just tried to rape my mom. And I'm like, I like shake and I like pull away from him. And he looks at my mom and he goes, we can't do this. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, what, like, you're the perpetrator here. Like, you're making it sound like you both did this to me. Like you are the instigator.

Like you're the problem in this scenario. But shockingly to me, my mom looks at him and goes, it's going to be fine. like everything's okay now. Like she is fully in the mode of like like consoling him more so than like consoling me. And, you know, it was just kind of insane. And so in the days and weeks that followed, you know, I said to her, I want him gone. Like I'm done with this. He's a bad person.

like no more of this. And she says to me, you know, like, yeah, I understand, but like we can't put him out on the street. Mind you, he has a whole ass family somewhere else, and that's where he sleeps at night. So she's just kind of lying to me, like, oh, you know, he doesn't really have anywhere safe to stay. And I'm like, I don't care, mind you. I'm like, he's a bad man and, like, he doesn't need to be here.

And then over time, she starts gaslighting me. And she starts, you know, kind of going on and on about like, you know, oh, like he loves us and he pays for these things and he's always there for us. And he's a good person. And then it starts to turn into, you're hurting his feelings. Because I was starting to like ice him out around the apartment. And so I'm sure he kind of was getting in her head about it. And so she comes to me to sort of deliver this message from him being like, you know, like he loves you. You're hurting his feelings.

He's sad that you don't talk to him. And I'm just like, like what Twilight Zone episode did we just get into? Because I'm like, do we remember the part where like he attacked you and, you know, like he needs to leave, you know? And I think that that moment is kind of like a snapshot. of like the dynamic that basically I just would continue to grow up with for like the next seven or so years. And, you know, kind of for the rest of middle school, the fighting just kept getting like worse and worse.

I think what was going on in the background is that he was getting a divorce. And so I ended up meeting his family. But I was told to lie and say that, you know, he and my mother had just met when I was in middle school and not that he's basically been like a father figure in my life since I was two years old. And then since the dynamic stayed that way for the next however so many years, did you keep standing up for your mom or did it kind of just, you did? Yeah.

Yeah. I think in high school I would get to a point where I'd be like, okay, like this is more like a low-key kind of like argument that they're having. but sometimes I would listen in and when it would get to a point where I'm... I mean, sometimes it's just like my pride, you know? Like, because I'm a very protective person

and like my mom is not the best, but like she's my mom, you know? And I think that's what people struggle to understand is it's like she's done a lot of bad things to me but like I love my mom the way that anyone loves their mom. You know, like with like the same amount of love is like how I feel about my mom. And I don't want to see anyone disrespect her or degrade her or demean her. So, yeah, like I would keep kind of putting myself in those situations.

And she got off on it, which is just another layer. I think that she has never had someone in her life who, like, stood up for her and would try to protect her. So I think that, like, she started to see me as that figure in her life, even though, like, I was her child. Yeah. which is also really messed up. And I think, you know, that kind of gets us into, like,

stuff that, like, my mom specifically did to me, because as she's in this, like, you know, kind of traditional, like, domestic violence relationship, she's also, like, sexually abusing me in some, like, really kind of odd ways. So she, like, would flash me. Like when she would get out of the shower. And I remember this like as late as like freshman year of high school. Like she would just come into my room in a towel and like open it in this really like weird like childlike way.

You know, but I think she like enjoyed seeing me uncomfortable. Because I would say like you're being weird like you need to go away. Like this isn't funny. You know what she would keep doing it. it. And, you know, like she, I think what was happening is, you know, she's with this man who's, like, really abusive, really cold, you know, who shuts down on her. Like, this is not a relationship where she's being taken care of. So I think she starts to take those needs for, like, intimacy and, like, turns towards me to, like, fulfill those. So she would, like, ask me to do, like, like, like,

really like sensual sort of things, like giving her like massages where like she would take her shirt off and she'd be like lying down and I would be like straddling her. I'd be like sitting on her butt like massaging her back like her naked back and like, you know, seeing the side of her like boobs and like all of this stuff like just way, way too close for like you to be with your child. It's like, you know, like that's something you, that's like, you know, cool, like sexy intimate time with like your partner. Like that's your child's not supposed to be doing that. I mean, too, like especially if it's something that makes you uncomfortable,

you shouldn't feel that you had to do that either. No, no. And like I think I got more uncomfortable with it the older I got. Yeah. But I think as a kid, I was like, oh, like this is my mom. Like she just wants me to do this for her. Right. Or like she would do, she would ask me to like tickle her arm and she would like get off on it.

So it's like she'd start to like moan. And like it was. super creepy. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and I would say to her, I'm like, you have to stop making those noises. And in my brain, like, I don't really understand, like, what it is. I just know I hate it and I need it to stop.

And that's a thing, too, like, when we're young, I think that all we really know to go off of is, like, our instinct and how something's making us feel. And just because we might not understand something yet at a young age, like, we might not know, like, straight up this is what something is. If we feel weird about it, like, that's probably. because it's a weird situation. Yeah. Like your body knows.

Oh, yeah. And I think in those moments, I just, like, felt so icky. Like, I'm like, ew, like, I feel gross about you. Like, to the point where it would carry over to just, like, you know, I didn't want her to hug me. I didn't want her to touch me. And, like, you know, I just wanted her to stay away from me, basically. And, like, you know, sometimes she would, like, pinch my butt and I would tell her not to

and, like, just kind of weird boundaries. Like sometimes she would like say like sexual things like about my body. Like she would say like my legs like looked like a horse. Like you know like like they're muscular or something. Or like she would talk about like I think it was this weird thing where I think she like sort of wanted to be me. Like it was a little straight white female like where she'd be like would you trade like your hair for my eyes? because she had big blue eyes, you know, or she'd be like, you know, oh, you're going to be so beautiful when you get older.

Like, you're going to get all this attention. And, like, her boyfriend would kind of get in on that, too. Like, I remember I went to, like, a friend's Keynesoniera and, like, I'm also 15. I'm wearing, like, a little, like, girl dress is sparkly. And I remember her boyfriend being, like, you look good. You look too good. And I'm like, y'all need to, like, calm down. Like, this is just so creepy and weird.

I mean other things that he would do He would come into my bedroom Randomly like at night And close my blinds And he would be like, I don't want people looking at you And I'm just like You know, I feel like the people you're worried about Are already in this house

Like I think I know who they are And maybe too that was just a reason for him to be in there 100% Yeah Yeah I think and honestly I've talked this out in therapy a lot And my sort of theory is that because of the way I would stand up for my mom when I was younger,

I think he kind of calculated in his mind that like if I do anything to her directly or if she sees me doing anything, like she's going to tell. Like she's going to get me in trouble, which was absolutely the case. So he never, you know, like did anything like explicit to me even though there were like undertones of like, you know, him commenting on me or like just creepy vibes or boundaries. And like my mom also having, you know, creepy vibes, weird boundaries. No boundaries. No, God, no.

You know, and I think, I mean, in elementary school, I was like being her trauma counselor, you know, like she would tell me, like, about abusive relationships she'd been in growing up and like what her childhood was like. And like, these are like graphic things. Like I'm like hearing like some really like scary information. And it messed me up, you know, because I'm starting to look at the world that way. And it's weird because I think there was part of her brain that understood that like she was my mother and she wanted to protect me. So it's like she's telling me all these things to warn me.

But at the same time I'm like, but you're also doing these things, you know? And your boyfriend is clearly not a safe person. So like, you know, like where is the sort of disconnect? And I think it was, you know, very much the disconnect kind of came forth when I was 13. And she watched me in another like messed up situation, like when I was eight with her boyfriend. So I never had a doctor because neglect and, you know, we were a little broke. So to take care of the things that you have to do to, like, go to school, like vaccines and physicals, they had a doctor come to my middle school to conduct like a physical for me.

Probably did this for other students too. my mom was in the room and this doctor like went through like a full exam like things that I haven't been asked to do as like an adult having a physical like you know he gave me like a breast exam that lasted a very long time and you know he like checked my cervix like it was weird I was like super traumatized from it. And I think it was another moment where it's like, I'm looking at my mom and I'm like, help. Help.

Right. And she just sits there. She looks away, like, you know, not involved. And the really messed up thing about it is over the years, she would bring that up to make fun of me. Like she would be like, oh, you know, we have to get you doctor's appointment for blank. You know, hope it won't be a creepy doctor. like that time.

And I just look at her. And I'm like, what's wrong with you? Like really, like, what is truly wrong with you? And I think, you know, there's a part of her that I think is like sadistic. And like she likes to see me in pain. Like I remember I had this theater director from middle school who is a lovely man. And he passed away from like pneumonia when I was in high school. and it was just super sad, you know, an adult that actually treated me well that I cared about

had died, you know, in his like mid-50s. And, you know, I was pretty heartbroken about it. And my mom heard about it, probably got notified by the school. And I remember I was like walking up to my bedroom at the time. And she looks at me and she goes, are you going to go upstairs and cry now? like just like this look of like hunger on her face like she really wants to know like she really she's like getting off on it um and i think that like in high school like there wasn't like as much like physical violence that at least i was seeing i suspected it was happening but they both

really liked to sort of get together to play mind games with me um like i remember there's one time where, so I've been a vegetarian for a long time and, you know, kind of had strict boundaries about like, I don't want meat touching my food or like kind of oils or fats, like being cooked in my food. And I remember, you know, her and her boyfriend are on the couch and I've, like, just finished eating dinner that she made. And she looks at me and she goes, oh, I cooked this in the chicken broth or whatever. Like, and she's like waiting for my reaction. and her boyfriend's like sitting there and they're both like watching me like waiting for me to have some sort of like meltdown.

And I'm like why? Why? Like I'm like you just like sort of messing with me. I think it's too like a craving with the just the drama and toxic environment. Yes. Like it seems like that's what she craved and was so used to. Especially if she kind of like picked at her boyfriend to have it start. It's like why would it be any different with you?

For sure. And I think also like I was also the only person in her life that she had any control over. And so I think she was like enjoying that. She's like, oh, this is the only thing that gives me like power. Right. Is like putting you down. Like she, I remember like such a stark sort of example of that is like when I was in high school, we lived in a townhouse. So we kind of moved up sort of economically at this point because he's paying for things and he's living with us.

And I'm in my bedroom upstairs. My mom is in the living room. And she calls for me. And she wants me to come downstairs to turn on a lamp that's right next to her. Like, it's like so Cinderella. Like, it's just ridiculous. Right. Like, I remember there was another time that, like, she got mad at me, like, in high school.

And so she came into my bedroom and, like, like shoved like her eating like plate like dinner plate in my hands to like go put in the sink so I'm like so you came upstairs to shove this in my hand it's just like a power thing just a power thing it's just like I think it's too just a reflection of the abuse and how she was feeling yeah which is terrible but that's right that's just what it strikes me as because the thing is it's like you know I'm not going to hit her like I'm not even really going to swear at her like I cared about about how she was treated. You know, like I was like, you know,

I don't wanna disrespect my mom, like she's already being disrespected. But it's like, I'm also getting this from her. So it's like everyone's dog piling on me, you know. And I feel like too, she didn't view you mentally as like her daughter. Like she didn't see it as that. You know what I mean?

Because she didn't have those qualities towards you. Like I think the way I kind of see it is she had like this Madonna horror complex about me. So like she would view me as like really innocent and pure and intelligent and sort of perfect. And she would be jealous of that. Like she would kind of see like, oh, like you have that sort of young sort of ingenue essence that like I lost because of all the trauma I went through, like sort of hating her inner child.

But like she took it out on me. And then she would also sort of project like her own self-hatred onto me. and she would kind of like, you know, especially in high school, kind of ask me, like, oh, are you sleeping around? Like, you know, like, are you like, it's like, oh, like you dress like really sort of modest, but like, you know, like are you doing anything I don't know about, you know, like sort of this like mean girl gossipy kind of energy. And I think, like, honestly, like, the head games and just, like, the dynamics were just so toxic. Like, I just was like, I cannot, like, exist in this. Like, this isn't okay. Like, I don't know what to do here.

And I remember, like, freshman year of high school, there was this one night that they got into a fight and he locked my mom out of the house. So she's like banging on the door to get in. I'm alone with him, like in the house, which is terrifying. He's sitting at like the dining room table, like silent and angry. Like he's like a king, you know, like he's like, this is my castle. And I'm just like looking at him. I'm looking at my mom pounding on the door. I'm like, what the hell is happening?

And I remember somehow my mom's boyfriend's oldest daughter gets called. I think my mom calls her because, fun tidbit, my mom becomes friends with his ex-wife and his oldest daughter, all while keeping the lie that, like, he hasn't been having an affair with her for 10 years. So it's like her support system are all of these women who are also under his control, basically. So she calls his oldest daughter who like is a good person and like, you know, I love a lot. And basically she's like, you know, just get her out of here being me. She's like to just take Emily with you. It's the first time she ever did anything like protective for me.

but I think it's probably because like she wanted the daughter there to like witness the drama because she was locked out and then to like make herself look better. She's like, oh yeah, I guess Emily shouldn't be here. And that was the first time that like someone outside of the two of them and me like saw what was going on. And so, you know, when I get to her house, we can call her, I'm trying to think, Lauren. Lauren is a great person. She's a mom. She has a really lame husband who is a little bit like a less evil version of her father, Keith. And, you know, I am just like adamant to her. I'm like, I do not want to go back to that house. I'm done with this. And she's like, okay. And so she tells my mom that

And I tell my mom that. And so I'm so adamant about it that, you know, for the rest of the weekend, I end up going to my grandparents' house. And, you know, they kind of shuffle me around for the next couple of days. Like, I'm at my grandma's house and then I'm at my uncle's house. And sort of oddly enough, like, my uncle is like the only one who's like with it enough to like have a real conversation with me. And he says to me, like, if you need help, like, let me know. You know, like, I'm worried about you. And I think in my mind, I'm like, well, clearly I need help.

Like, duh. Like, so what are you offering, you know? And the hard thing about it being him to be the one to reach out is that he's also abusing his kids in a different way. But he's very, like, totalitarian. Like, that is not a happy home, very traumatizing. But it's this sort of weird thing where, like, I don't think he's like a wholly bad person. I think he's very misguided and also very traumatized like my mom, because this is my mom's brother.

But I was like, you know, I don't really want to go to your house either. I'm like, I'm kind of familiar with what I've got. I don't really want to like roll the dice on a new situation. That's probably also going to be bad. And how old were you at this point? Like 15. Okay. And so I think like kind of at that age, like I start really thinking to myself, like, how am I going to survive this?

And, you know, I'm like, what are my like hard lines here? And my thought is like, if I see him like hit me or my mother and she doesn't do anything about it, like I'm out. And so, you know, I'm kind of like looking for that to happen, but I never see it. And I'm like, okay, I currently, like, am not being raped. If I go into foster care again, there's no guarantee. Like, if I'm, like, tied to the state and, like, I'm shuffled around, like, no idea what could happen to me. And, you know, if I'm placed with, like, some of my mom's relatives, like, they all have their own sort of messed up dynamics. And at least, like, where I was at that point with my mom, like, I know my high school.

I have friends there. I have activities. You know what to expect also. Exactly. So I basically was like, I'm deciding to stay until, you know, a certain line gets crossed again. and then like I will just kind of be like okay like I will turn to the system basically um which was very hard because I think mentally like just the the anguish of like having to be around her boyfriend every day like I was so afraid of that man like because I knew like what he was capable of doing and so

Even having the thought of potentially having to turn to go to foster care when you have a mom that you should, that you could be living with or are living with is it's really heartbreaking. It's sad. It is sad. And I think like ultimately, like I remember, you know, I would just fantasize about like if I ever got a car. Like I could like sleep in my car and like go to school and then like go back to my car. I'm like, oh my God, that would be amazing. Like to just like have a space that was mine. Silent.

safe, like that I could control. Like it's like sleeping in a car is like a fantasy. Like that's so sad. And I think like ultimately like I just lived in a lot of fear of like what could be happening just because I didn't trust them. So like I would like lock my bedroom door at night because I was scared that like he was going to come and like try to hurt me. and like like because I think you know after the like attempted rape of my mom I'm like oh like you're a predator

like this could happen to me too and so like for the next you know sort of seven years like I'm on guard like the entire time like the second like I walk into like my supposed at home like I'm ready like to fight to like defend myself, to defend my mom. Like I became a very like militant person and like very sort of like safety focused, you know, like I actually like created like a go bag and left it at like a friend's house in case like I needed to like escape basically. And I did end up actually running away a month after I turned 18. I, you know, it's interesting.

Sometimes it's like the thing that does it is like not the biggest thing that happened, but it's like sort of the last straw. Yeah, the thing that pushes you over the edge. Exactly. And I think it was just a night where like they had been drinking. He had, you know, come home. Like this is kind of a pattern that would happen. It's like during the week, any day of the week, they could go out drinking, come home and start fighting.

But this was just a night where. I could hear him like downstairs in the kitchen and he's just slamming cabinets and like yelling to himself. Like just being the worst. And I was just like, I hate this man so much. Like I'm just done. Like I just can't do this anymore. I'm 18. Like this is, I'm done.

So in the middle of the night, I start packing everything that like. I care about, like, clothes, stuffed animals, like, you know, things for school. I put it in garbage bags and I quietly bring it all down the stairs because it's like, my bedroom is upstairs, then I have to go downstairs through the living room and kitchen sort of out of the townhouse. So I do that for two hours, like getting everything, basically. I bring it all sort of behind our garage. and I just stand there and I start calling people.

And so I called one friend who didn't pick up. I called a second friend who did pick up. And she and her adorable saint of a father came and got me at like four in the morning. And I remember so vividly her dad is kind of like a Santa Claus figure. Like he's this adorable, wonderful man. I'm very happy that they have each other. And he, I remember him in the front seat, he had like a big belly and he put some of my stuff on him. So he had like some of my stuffed animals.

It was the cutest thing. And just like such a like a beacon of hope, you know. And, you know, he drove me to their house and, you know, I stayed the night there. And because, you know, I love my mother and everything I do is for her. I left her a note basically being like, I can't do this anymore. I'm staying with this friend. Like, you know, you don't need to worry, basically. And of course, giving her the address was like a dumb idea.

But I definitely did that. Yeah. Well, I think, too, you weren't necessarily running from her. You were running from the situation and the situation that she was in and you were in. Yeah. And I think that obviously you kind of just always had that hope that she would be there for you like you were there for her. Right. Which is normal.

That's what any kid would want. You would think, right? Yeah. Because it's like, you know, she would say things like growing up where she'd be like, you know, it's us against the world. Like, you know, you're my number one. And it's like, well, I feel like every time you have the opportunity to prove that, you're just, yeah, don't. So basically, you know, I'm at the friend's house. She shows up.

She, you know, is like, you need to come home. And like, you know, I go with her, God, I don't know why. But I go with her and it's just us in the apartment. And she is so angry with me. And like she starts asking me like, are you on drugs? Like, you know, like you've gone crazy basically. Like gaslighting me. And we have just like such a horrible messed up conversation where she's like, you know,

I love you. He loves you. Me and him, we love each other, but you have this problem with him. Don't, like, you need to understand you're the problem here. Like, it's you. And I just was like, dumbfounded. Because I'm like, I have spent my entire childhood. I gave it up to protect you.

Like, I'm the only one who's been taking care of you. When she's drunk, when she's scared, you know, she was. would sleep like in my bed because she was scared. Like I was basically like her mom in a lot of ways. And for her to say that to me, it was probably the worst thing she's ever said to me. It's like maybe higher than the time that she said, you know, at least he doesn't hate you. Just like, ooh, you know. And for some reason, I think because she was guilting me and saying like, you know, you're going to make me look like a fool if, like, you leave before going to college. Like, just stick it out for another couple of months. And I was like, okay, fine. I wish I hadn't

have done that, but, you know. And then did you end up going away for college? I did. Okay. And she was fine with that? No, God, no. No, I remember we had this conversation. I had to do this like summer program before going to college. So I was going to be out of the house for like five weeks. And then I was going to be home for another three and then back to school. And so at some point, I think when I had finished that program and I was waiting to like go to school, she like, I remember her being like in my room at night and like she sort of says to me like, you're never going to come home again, are you? and I look at her just kind of like

what do you think and I remember and it gives me chills just to think about it she looks at me like so cold and she goes you think you're a victim

don't you and I'm just staring at her and I'm like no I don't and we're just like in this moment and like I don't remember

how it resolves but I think that she understood that like I was done with her and that I was like done with the whole situation. And so it's like when I left for college, like I basically told her like I am never going to sleep in your house ever again. And I did keep that promise. But I like for the first like year and a half of college, I like agreed to like visit her and like to visit our extended family for holidays.

with her. But like I wasn't staying with her. I was staying with friends in my hometown. But then there was a point where like she sort of agreed tentatively that like I didn't have to see her boyfriend. And that was like my stipulation is like I will see you briefly for these holidays with our extended family. But I'm not going to see him like he's dead to me. And she's like fine. But there was this time where she is picking me up from getting back into town from college. He's in the car with her. And his granddaughter is also in the car. And she's like an eight-year-old. And I love this little girl. She's a wonderful child. She's probably in like high school now. And they both know that I love this child. And they both know I don't want anything to do with

him. So it's like manipulation. Exactly. So I get in the car. I'm so angry because, you know, she lied to me. But I'm talking to this, you know, child who I like consider my niece, you know, and she's the only one I'm talking to because I'm like. Pissed.

Yeah, exactly. And I just like vividly remember like feeling kind of like the chains go back on. It's like, like, I'm not safe anymore. Like, I have to be, like, on guard again. And I think that that moment kind of, like, solidified for me that, like, I can't be this person anymore. No, you can't keep stepping backwards into that. No, no. And I think by the time, you know, it was like my sophomore fall, I basically told her, like,

I'm cutting all of my financial ties to you. like I got my like student like financial aid in my name I got my own cell phone bill like I was like I don't need you like this is it and by the time I was a junior in college while I was studying abroad I actually saw that she had been emailing an old email of mine trying to get in touch with me so you basically cut her off after you cut off the financial stuff pretty much um like I just sort of stopped talking to her like when I was like out of the country which made her super angry and it was interesting because you could see all of these emails and you could see like the first line of every email and you could see her going through like the abuser's cycle right like one would

be like I love you so much I miss you I hate you you horrible monster you know and so I just said to her I was like I don't want to talk to you anymore it's not good for me like I'm done And when you cut her off, did you feel a shift in yourself at all? Oh, yeah. No, like, I, no regrets. Like, I think it is, I just don't think that, like, I could be, like, a fully functioning person. No.

It wouldn't be healthy for anybody. God, no. And I feel like, too, you dealt with it for so long when you didn't have a choice, that now if you have a choice, why would you put yourself through that? Literally, why? And it's interesting because my senior year of college, she contacted the school to find out if I was still going there. And they notified me about that.

And I was like, oh, crap. And it's weird because in the same week, my biological father messaged me on Pinterest. Pinterest. Pinterest. Like what? Yeah, it's bizarre. He found me on Pinterest, which is insane.

Yeah. And basically what she told me about my biological father, which I now kind of think is true based on the interaction we had is that he kind of was like in and out of jail, had issues with drugs and was like not mentally there.

And so I see these messages on Pinterest that were sent to me a couple months ago. They're very long. They're very rambly. They're not like grammatically correct at all.

Yeah. And like he's talking about me like, oh, like my long lost, like, daughter, my baby, like, oh, like, I'm so glad I've found you. Like, like, we're sort of like in a telenovela, like, or like I'm still six years old, you know, like, very weird. Because I feel like in this situation like that, it's like, hey, like, I know that we haven't been in touch throughout your life. I really regret that.

I would love to just have a conversation with you. Like something like mature, you know. But it was this super weird, like your mother's like. been keeping you from me. And I'm like, my dude, like, you haven't been paying child support. Like, what are you talking about? Like, that's not how this works. So I basically just decide not to get involved in that. I'm like, I really have enough. Another path that you don't need to go down. No, no. And you never know. I always tell people, you never know what's going to happen down the road or if people change or if things come around.

Okay, great. But I think right now you know what's best for you. I'm just, and I think at this point, I'm just like, I've, I've really been trying to clear the day. of like everyone that I don't trust. And ultimately, like, there are people on my mom's side of the family that, like, I love a lot and I don't think are bad people, but I don't trust them. And I don't trust them to, like, keep her away from me. And so, like, I cut everyone out. Right. And how old are you now? I'm 27. Okay. And then you cut her out at what age? Like, when was the last time you spoke to her? The last time I, like, contacted her, which was over email, I was like 21. Oh, wow. So it's been a while. It's been a long time. Okay. And she hasn't tried to

reach out at all? Um, I don't know. Okay. Because she's super blocked. Ah, got it. Yeah. She could like, it's interesting. It's like she could be like getting burner phones to try to contact me, but she hasn't. She called me and like left a voicemail during the pandemic from like a different number and I blocked that. Okay. Um, but people from like her side of the family contact me all the time. Okay. Like I usually will get like, it's funny too, my, my, like, biological dad's side of the family does it too. So, like, people, like, on Facebook will just, like, send me messages. Like, oh, it's been forever. It's been five years. Like, how are you? Like, do you know if she's still with the Keith guy? She's got to be. Really? There's no way. Oh, wow. There's no way. They, like, got a house

together. Okay. So they ended up staying together. They're still together. Wow. She's never going to leave that man. I would love it if she did. But I just don't think it will ever happen. What did you say that you're doing now? So I work at a college as like a crisis responder. So basically like students can call us and be like, hey, I'm having a panic attack or I'm feeling kind of suicidal. Like I need help. And like we, you know, we don't wear uniforms.

Like we're dressed kind of in normal clothes. And like we're somebody who can respond like in a trauma informed way and just be like, hey, like we're here for you. We're going to get you help and like resource. That's amazing. Yeah. So it's kind of like a school therapist but for college and more like crisis oriented. I think it's sort of like we're the people who are like on call when like the therapy like center is closed.

Got it. Okay. So it's like we aren't therapists per se but we're like trained in like scene management and like kind of like crisis response. And can these students come to you or is it all over the phone? Both. Okay. So they can call us. We can go to them if they're on campus and they can come to our office and like,

our office and like we have like a private conference room. And I think it's really good because I think whether there's somebody that's going through it still while they're in college or it's something that they've experienced, I always tell people, I think the best people that do jobs like that or those that have the experience in it just because I think that they have that soft sensitive spot that they can really understand and relate to these kids. Because I think too, I mean, if you even look back to when you were in college, I doubt what you wanted to do was just go around and talk to people about it or share things that maybe you weren't that proud of that were happening at home. I think that could be really difficult to do.

And I mean, I don't want to say embarrassing, but it's something that it's not like you're going to be like, yeah, this is what's happening. You know what I mean? You just... Oh, I get that. I feel like everybody wishes things were how they picture it in their head. Right. You want it to be perfect.

You want your mom to feel like your mom and you want to see your mom being treated right and treating you right. So I think that it's crucial that you're somebody that you understand that from your own personal experience. So if a child ever displays or even hints that something like that is going on, you can kind of be there as that, you know, peace of mind to be like, okay, look, I get it. And it's not, you know, I feel like it's a very comfortable, you'd be a comfortable person to talk to about it, which is important.

Yeah. And I think for me, like, I think like survivors have like very different ways of like reacting to things. Oh, yeah. And I think I find myself in this space where like I've been asked to keep secrets for such a long time that I actually have been like very public about like my experiences like ever since I got to college like I did like public speaking and like you know kind of solo performance kind of theater work. That's really what I love to do. And like so I've been talking about all of this like

you know since probably for like almost 10 years now. I think it's healthy. It's healthy to talk about it be open. I just think that a lot of times growing up when you're a child and when you're in school and if you see friends that are that are in per se like a normal family. I think it can put this like haze over you of just shame and just sadness because like why why can't everyone have it. Exactly. And it's it's sad and it sucks and it's just crazy to me that there's so many children that I feel like they come from these types of families and I don't know. I feel like parents, just people in general that have children and this is how they treat them, there has to be something wrong.

Oh, 100%. Because I just don't. And obviously she had her own trauma. But it's just like that's just not, it's like I said, it's not a mother-daughter. No. Definitely not. Like she just didn't view you as that, I feel like. And it's just to me, like I said, it just seems like there's something off there that she, whether

it was because of her trauma or something that had happened to her or that things. that were happening to her that she just couldn't view you that way. I feel like she physically literally couldn't. I agree. Like I think it's like... And all you can do is feel sympathy and sorry. Like I think the more mature and older we get, we start to look at people that are struggling and we're like, I feel sorry for you. And I want the best for you. But like you can't, I just think people that have something going on like that, it's sad for them. It's sad. And I think, also it's like when you have children in those situations there is like no like institutional backbone to help them no like I think honestly like the system just tends to like retramatize the situation

they might put you in the care of someone equally or more abusive which is also horrible yeah like the fact that you had to like even in your head balance that out and be like well this could even be the same if not worse is sad it's like yeah who are you going to turn to nobody no one right and It's the most like if they think that she can provide for you financially without knowing anything else. Or be like, okay, she's fine. You know what I mean? It's fine. Yeah.

Also, she's white, you know, like I think that probably helped too. They don't question it as much. Oh, no. And I think like, you know, there were so many like people who like had a sense that like something was wrong. But no one did anything. No. Like friends, like parents would know. Like they would be like, oh, like, yeah, I don't really want to sense.

my kid over to her house. Because people don't know how to approach it. And that makes sense. I get it. I think it's a lot easier not to get involved and not to speak up than it is to speak up. But something that I've learned, and I said this, I think last episode is like something that I've learned from this show is how crucial a child's development is and their years of being a child and the experiences they have.

And I think that if more people spoke up and just were there and showed that they were a safe space or, you know, a safe person to turn to, I think that children would at least maybe have that balance of like there's good and there's evil and not everything's just evil. The safe adult is important. And I think too, like, you know, some survivors say like my mom, like go on to like become offenders. But it's like also a lot of survivors, I think more often just get re-victimized. Oh yeah. Which is just like, you know, so it's like you have this sort of struggle in childhood and then sometimes it just turns into a lifetime of being victimized. Yeah.

And I think too people say, I mean, when you grow up in an environment where that's all you know is abuse, it's comfortable. Exactly. And like as you grow up, you're just going to accept that behavior a lot of times because that's all you know. And I think it's interesting too because I definitely sort of like developed this sense of like viewing toxic or abusive men as like romantic figures. you know like I would have boys bully me in middle school that I would like have a crush on and I'd be like oh like it's because they like me it's because they like me or like oh this is like a sort of Edward Cullen thing like oh wait no hold on don't talk back don't talk about Bay no I'm kidding Robert Pattinson is a whole different story yes don't get me started on him you're the second person to bring him off of my show so no that's like my husband that's totally fair was he toxic like the character

or yeah. Yes. Have you watched those movies recently? I watched, okay, so I watched through most of them, like maybe two years ago. I was like very triggered. Really? I read the books in middle school and love them. Okay, so I've honestly, this is kind of a side of it.

I know, but I've heard this before from people and I'm curious why you think it's toxic. Explain to me. No, I'm just like I actually am very curious. And I get it in this. sense of like, no, I don't because I love him. Okay. Okay. I think part of that is because Robert Pattinson's a beautiful man.

Part of it, though, I think is like, I think what's problematic is I feel like we're using like this idea of a vampire as like a smokescreen for a man that says, it's hard for me to not hurt you. And you should be grateful that I'm not hurting you. I could kill you so easily, but I'm not. I am sexually, like, frustrated about how much I want to hurt you. And some of that. Okay, that makes sense.

That actually, honestly, that was, like, the best way you could have described it. Like, to it, like, now I get, I, yeah, that makes sense to me. But the thing is, look, there's, like, no kink shaming. Like, I think when we're talking about, like, consenting adults who, like, you know, BDS time and boundaries and all of that, like, do you have a great time? I think that like in the context of maybe those books like this is a young high school girl. He's an older man. I just kind of viewed it as like he was so passionate and in love with her.

But that's how they get you. I know. Because it's like if you have like that toxic guy who's like in your DMs like I'm just so obsessed with you. Like I just love you so much. Those are the ones that get me. But it's like they're. Right. But it's like then it's like they're being like controlling.

But you're telling yourself it's love. Do you know what I mean? It's like the love bombing. No, you're right. No, you're right. But it's attractive. Okay, that's, I'm actually glad that it led into this because I do think that there is such a fine line. And it's, it's so interesting to me how different people will view it because somebody that's experienced what you have gone through, you're going to view it as triggering and like, no, that's bad. That's wrong. And then somebody else that maybe hasn't gone through that. They're going to see it as like, wait, that's the kind of love I want. And it's this fine line that it's like, you don't even wear, you know what I mean? What's right? What's wrong? And you just, I mean, I think that like, this idea of like tortured men. Like I think we romanticize men who are volatile.

We romanticize men who are like, you know, aggressive, violent even because it's like we're like, oh, like he just has big feelings. He's an alpha. He's a real man. He can protect me even though he's scaring you. Do you know what I mean? I think that there, this is a big thing for me. I think that there is a fine line between like attraction.

like sexual attraction and fear because they both can get your adrenaline pumping, but you might mistake one for the other. So it's like there might be a guy that like you're like, I can't predict like your behavior, like you keep me on my toes. I'm not secure in whatever this thing is that we have. And it's a high. You get a rush from it because it's like when they're there, they're all about you.

And when they're gone, they're cold, they're distant, they're far away. So that takes your body through like a whole nose type of emotions. It absolutely is. And I think that like while these people like might be attractive and have attractive qualities, like yeah, we all want to be swept off our feet. I think the highs and lows is actually the abuse cycle. And I think that people mistake that for romance and like for passion. I think I've heard Megan Foxx.

that before. Yep. She's so smart. Yeah. She's very emotionally intelligent. I think what people, I think like something I've gotten to experience of the last couple of years because I'm in a lovely relationship is it's actually like you almost think it's a little boring. You're like, wow, like he just stays. Like he just cares. I heard something. I was like my friend. I heard something that they say that like, I think it was on TikTok, something stupid, but they say that the people that kind of make you have those butterflies. Those are the ones that you should like run in the other direction from. Yeah.

Because it should be the ones that make you feel at peace and at home that. Right. But we look at that as boring because there is no highs and lows. Like, oh, like it's comfortable. And I think that, I mean, I think it points to a larger societal problem. Oh, 100%. We're not, we are not brought up in like movies and shows and films to be attracted to that. No.

That's why everybody chose Stefan. I mean, Damon and not Stefan. Oh, God, yes. I still choose Damon. I do too. But I recognize that it's not good. Yeah. Because I think ultimately, again, I mean, vampires are such an apt metaphor for like.

I'm looking for one. So you find one. But you know what? You can find like a badass, cool, tough man. Where? That's not evil. Do you know what I'm saying? I can't find them.

They're not common. I'm not saying that it's like, I got to go digging around. No, look, I, to be real, like, if you look at, say, like, the population of men, people are going to hate me for this. But, like, 60, 80 percent, no dice. It's not good. It's not going to be good for you. But I feel like the hard thing is it's like if there's like a good man who, like, has a soul, has basic understanding of, like, empathy goes to therapy. Oh, my God.

My boyfriend goes to therapy. It's amazing. It's important. So important. Like, he, they're going to. to be taken. Like they're already going to be taken. So it's like I feel like for straight women in particular, now I'm not straight. But so sorry ladies, I took them. But like it's hard. And I think honestly, I think a nice thing that I feel like I've been seeing is like straight women

being like I'd rather be single. Oh, 100%. I agree. I'm like, I'm finally at that point where I'd rather be single than settle or be with something bad or be with something that I'm just not into. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm fine with that. But I do. think that I was actually just talking to my therapist about this the other day that I think that when you get older, you almost feel like you have to settle because it's like that fear of like, well, what if I don't find anybody or there's no such thing as the whole package? But I do think that you can find somebody that you're attracted to and that's also good for you. But I think it's hard. I think it's like honestly you have to like do a lot of work on yourself. And I don't necessarily think

it's like, oh, you have to love yourself first and kind of those things that they say. But I think have to be working towards loving yourself. Absolutely. Because then you're going to like have standards that are like really set. You attract what is, you know, you are what you attract. If you are on a higher frequency, you're going to attract a higher frequency. Yeah. And I think that it's really important to kind of get to where you want to be to attract

the kind of person that you want and that's good for your life. And I think ultimately too, I think like I've done a lot of work of trying to like de-romanticize like abusive behavior. Edward and Damon. Yeah. That's going to take a lot of unraveling for me. Those are my, those are both like the loves of my life. But the thing is, is it's like, we can like enjoy like a sexy vampire story and like also like, you know, like have like respect in our lives.

You know what I mean? And I think that's kind of the hard thing. And I think this is probably something the world of erotica like needs to work on and like. I agree. Being clear about, you know, this is kink and fantasy and like this is a healthy relationship. Like they can coexist. but like, you know, this is what abuse looks like. And I think for women, like, it's just so hard to navigate.

It is hard. And it's hard, I think, when you have society feeding you one thing over and over and over again. It's kind of the bad boy, drilling it into your brain. It's hard. It's definitely hard. Because I think, honestly, like, you know, and there's discourse about this kind of from the in-cells, but like the whole nice guys finish last thing. It's like there are good men out there.

I would disagree that they finish last. I think most of them are taken if they want to be. And I think you just have to be like patient. Yeah. Because like I've, you know, I've pursued or like been interested in like men that just like re like scrambled my brain. Like absolutely destroyed me. Like and now like I feel like I'm like trying to start drama because I'm like what is happening? I'm like, are we just like okay all the time?

Like, what is going on? Let's create some excitement, some drama. Because honestly, again, it's like an addiction. And I think for me, like, I, it's almost like self-harm emotionally that I would be drawn to like men that are like that. Until you completely rewire your brain, that's where your foundation goes back to. Because that's how you were raised. So it's normal for you and familiar. So in a way, it feels good, even though like it feels like.

it feels bad. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. Because afterwards, it's like, why did I do that? That was terrible. Because it's like there's a reason that people love roller coasters and bungee jumping. But it's like your relationship shouldn't necessarily make you feel like that all the time.

Because it's like if the highs are really high, the lows are really low. And I think what ends up being sustainable is like balanced most of the time. And just I think like, yeah, I think just realizing like, oh, like, Maybe these guys, like, aren't that hot. Like, maybe they're, like, actually sort of evil. Now, again, it's hard because it's like Ian Summerhalder. Looks like that. But that's not his fault.

And I think he's a nice person in real life, you know? But that's kind of the trouble with Hollywood is it's like you have these people who, you know, just like, people don't look like that. That's ridiculous. No, no one looks like that. The day I find somebody looks like either one of those two motherfuckers. There's nobody who looks like that. You gotta go to like... Nowhere.

They are not here. They're not at the cafes. I've been to the cafes. I've been to the coffee shops, the gym. They're not there. I feel like... They were crafted in a lab. They were crafted in a lab.

They are. Yeah, that's fair. I feel like though, hear me out. I think like I had a very like specific picture in my head of like the kind of guy that I was into. And I think when I let that go, I was able to meet someone. who like actually cares about me. I know it's so hard.

But the thing is I think ultimately it's like we get primed for what we think is attractive based on what we see. So it's like. Yeah. I've also realized sometimes you can be, you can have an idea of what you think you want. And even if something, a big thing I've realized is even if you find it physically, nine times out of 10, maybe not nine times, but a lot of the times out of 10, I feel like if that person doesn't have what you're looking for, quality-wise, characteristics, personality,

none of the looks even matter. Nobody wants to date an asshole that's hot or a stupid guy. You know what I mean? And like, you know, good men can be hot. I think it's just like, are they going to be hot in like the exact way on paper? It's a small percentage. I'll be honest. But I think like also I think that like good men tend to be hot in a way that's not as flashy, you know, because they're.

their brain is attractive. Their brain is attractive. Well, it's like, I think ultimately it's like it's about the energy you give off. And like how you carry yourself. And how the energy connects with two people. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think like the sort of the alpha guys like, you know, they're trying to give sexual energy.

You know what I mean? They're trying to give charisma and whatnot. Like that's why people are like, oh, you're the hottest. But like sometimes like. But you're also the stupidest. Yeah, exactly. But I think it's like, I think that there are like guys out there that are just like, I'm just a normal person hanging out. But they don't get notice as much because they're not trying to like get that attention.

The last thing I'll say about this is I think too, we aren't taught to grow and form a connection with people. We're taught to have love at first sight. Instant attraction. Right. Like when you see them, you want them. And then the rest is history. You guys just hit it off. But like I just mentioned, sometimes you can meet somebody that you're so attracted to.

and then you just don't like them or their fucking breath stinks or something along the lines that you're like, ew. Or it's just not there. Exactly. But we're not shown, I think, I mean, maybe some movies or shows, but we're not really taught to get to know somebody and fall for who they are as a person. 100%. And I think that that's a big thing.

As we get older, we kind of realize when you're looking for the qualities you need or what is actually good for you and what's going to serve you, that might have to be something that you grow into. Yeah. And I think to be honest, like, I think that we're not shown a lot of, like, diversity when it comes to, like, viewing, like, different kinds of Ben as attractive. It's usually relatively thin men who are super buff, who are often white, like, and, you know, fits into this kind of box.

I don't know. I like a good mix of everything. I do, too. But I think it's like, if you don't know those people, like, in your neighborhood, in your friendship circle. like that might not be what you think of when you think of like who you could be interested in. And so I think like exposing yourself to maybe like healthier forms of media and like having a wider social circle. Like just being open to thinking about like what is the kind of like human being like I want to be with and not necessarily like I want him to have a six pack abs.

And like you know. And it's hard because I think like we're told to want those things. And I think men are also. Yes. Image. Right. But I think honestly, you know, when I've liked guys like that, like they're sociopaths. Right.

They're not all sociopaths, but I feel like often. Yeah. Because I think they know that they're fitting into this kind of like privileged sort of conventional space. And they want to take advantage of it. It's the big head of like I can get what I want. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Why settle if I don't have to. Yeah. Yeah. But no, I'm glad. I like that conversation. That was good. Yeah.

Of course, of course. Thank you for bringing up Edward and starting that. I'm always here to do that. I mean, I think something else that just might be, you know, kind of important to say is like, I think that, you know, mother-daughter incest is not something that, like, people talk about a lot. I think it's like come more into the conversation over the last couple of years. I read Jeanette McCurdy's book. I'm glad my mom died.

And, you know, she talks about things that, like, remind you. me of like my own childhood and like you know kind of those creepy boundaries like being crossed and I think that part of that is because people have a hard time viewing women as perpetrators too which is fair because we live in a patriarchy and most of the time it is men and I think that you know I think it's important like to me to just like give voice to that and also like to just kind of say like, you know, I'm 27 now. Like I live in an apartment. I have a partner. I have four cats. Like, I have a stable job. Cats. Cats are everything. Like, you know, I'm doing okay. But I think, like, to kind of give a realistic picture of like, you know, what recovery looks like,

Like, sex is very hard for me. I don't do it very often, but somehow I'm still able to find someone who can work with me on that. And I'm afraid of most people, even though I can project confidence. Like, I find people terrifying most of the time. And I have all my own insecurities, things I still work on. And so it's like, there's a balance of like, I'm doing okay. Like, I'm so much better now. I have so many things in my life that are like safe and make me happy.

And so like, you know, if anybody in similar situations feels like there's no light at the end of the tunnel, like there is. There definitely is. And at the same time, like to be realistic, you know, I still struggle sometimes. And that's okay. I've been in therapy for like 10 years. I've had good therapists. I've had bad therapists.

But it's been worth the investment. And I think ultimately, like, it's just important to not settle like we've been talking about and like not settling in terms of like your own relationship, your parental relationship, your friends. Like we have a lot of sort of fealty to like our parents. But like sometimes your parents aren't your parents. And like if you have to go no contact, like sometimes you have to do like what you need to do to like mentally survive. And I think that's okay too.

Yeah. You wrap that up perfectly. Everything I was going to touch on, you got no. Seriously, you did incredible. You are so brilliant, too, in your journey and everything that you've said. I feel like you're really in touch with your emotions and what you've been through and just the reality of the world and life and your situation. And I love that you shared that while, yes, you can come on here and talk about it.

And like you said before, you've been talking about it openly for 10 years. You still do have your days that you struggle, which is so normal. I think people need to be a little bit kinder to themselves because we, I mean, I'm the same. I'll have days where I feel great and then I have days that I feel like I'm back down. And then I'm like, fuck, I'm starting back over. And that's what PTSD is like. And it just beats you down, but we have to like care for ourselves a little bit more those days. And then usually I feel like most of the time the next day, I feel okay again.

And I'm back on my routine. But no, I think you wrapped it up perfectly. And I'm so grateful that you wanted to come on here and share your story. And I think that unfortunately, like you said, it's sad, but there are a lot of parents that have these kind of relationships with their children or even allow abuse with whoever they're with, their partners as well. And it's sad and it's traumatizing. But I think, like I say with everything else on this show, the more that it's talked about, the more that awareness is brought to it and people don't feel so alone and ashamed because it's not your fault. It's not the victim's fault, the child's fault, anyone's fault. And at one point it wasn't your mom's fault either.

Exactly. So, no, I think you did incredible. And thank you so much for coming on. You did such a good job, seriously. Well, it was wonderful meeting you. You too. And I hope you're not scared of me. Oh, you're so cute.

Good, no, because you said I'm scared of people. I'm like, well, I hope I don't. I'm staring deep into your eyes. I hope I didn't scare you. I'm sad none of my cats came down for you. So, okay.