We're All Insane - My Parents are Siblings

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

Vanessa describes her experience being raised by Jehovah's Witness parents who were also brother and sister. Vanessa's parents had a total of 9 children with one another. If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me DeVora. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. Hello, my name is Vanessa. I'm from Northeast Ohio. I'm 46 years old. I'm one of seven children born to a brother and sister. I found out when I was nine years old that my Jehovah Witness parents are siblings. I was in third grade. I didn't really understand that that was right or wrong. I didn't know. And actually my grandmother was happy about it. I, that her children found somebody to love. And it just kind of became normal. Did your parents tell you?

My mother told me she actually liked talking about it. My dad, I think he would have took it to his grave, but my mom, I don't know why she wanted to tell people. But now we're all, you said that you were one of seven siblings? Yes. So all of you guys were the children of your mom and dad who are brother and sister. Okay, got it. Yeah. And they actually did have a marriage certificate because they went to the courthouse in

it was 1974. And I guess back then they didn't have to, you know, show a lot of ID. They had different last names. They did have different fathers. Okay. But so they went to the courthouse and my dad put down that he made a fake name for his mother on the marriage certificate form and they swore under oath they were no closer of kin than second cousin and they walked out with a marriage license yeah so they actually did have a

document stating that they were married in 1974 wow yeah so they went a long way to make it look real and let's see when they started living together i think my mom was 19 and my dad was 20 This was her big brother. Well, yeah, that was when they got married, they had one son. He was almost two years old. They had, and then it was sometime that year that their brother came over and said he had some religious literature that he wanted to drop off. and I guess they said they kicked him out because he wasn't willing to not be gay

so he could not join the religion. So he left that there for my mom and she went through it and liked it and she contacted a local kingdom hall and started studying. I don't think my dad really wanted to, but he went anyway. and so they it came time to be baptized so they actually met with the elders you go through your questioning to you know see if you're qualified for baptism and that's when my mom confessed that they were actually just brother and sister living as man and wife and they had a let's see my brother was four at the time and my sister was a few months of

So they had, these are, they had two children at that time. So they went to get baptized through the Jehovah Witnesses? Is that what it is? Yes. Okay. And they told them that they were brother and sister and they were just fine with it. No, they actually, the local elders didn't know what to do. So they wrote headquarters in Brooklyn.

And they had to wait for a response to see if the couple was qualified. Okay. I mean, under the religious guidelines, they're not. They don't allow incest. So I don't really know why the local elders didn't just put it into it right there. Right. But they waited for a response and they were approved. The leaders in New York said they were living in a marriage.

And they approved their baptisms and they were baptized in 1974. And it was during that time, probably what sucked my mother in was it was the stay alive till 75 recruit. recruiting campaign because the world was set to end in 1975 in their beliefs. Okay. So, you know, they kind of got in in a nick of time, you know. But, well, the first, so that was the first congregation we attended. And actually, I guess people in the congregation kind of knew. I don't know if my mom was telling other people or what.

So when they were approved for baptism, they actually made an announcement at that congregation to accept this couple as Jehovah's family. So then the entire congregation knew at that point. And I mean, when the leaders make a decision, nobody can do anything about it. So I know people there didn't like it, but, you know, if you talk against a decision, you're going to get labeled an apostate. So you kind of had to deal with it. And then they got to watch two pregnancies back to back. They didn't have to do that before because the two were already born. Right. So I was the first child born with them as baptized Jehovah Witnesses. Okay. So I was born in 77 and then my brother was born in 78. So this congregation got to actually have to, you know, deal with looking at the pregnancies too. And I was in

In 1982, we moved. We built a house on five acres of land, so we moved from that congregation. So I liked our new congregation. Pretty nice people there. And as a Jehovah Witness, like, what are, what is like the lifestyle that they live by? Because I don't know much about it. Well, there's no holidays. Okay.

There's no Mother's Day, Father's Day, no Fourth of July. They celebrate, they're allowed to celebrate their anniversary and the memorial of Jesus' death. Okay. Those are their only things they're allowed to celebrate. Okay. And then is there a certain set of rules to live by for the day-to-day living, or not really? Well, you have to go to Kingdom Hall meetings three days a week. Okay.

And then they want you to preach. Yeah, they're usually safe. I think it was like 10 hours, at least 10 hours a month. You're supposed to go knock on doors. Right, okay. Yeah. And that's just to try to get more people to be a part of it. Yeah.

Okay. So, yeah, our new congregation was pretty good. And they didn't make an announcement at this one, so I don't know how many people there knew about it. but so we were let's see I started kindergarten in 1983 and I was actually

went a year late because my mom wanted to hold me back to make sure there's a Jehovah Witness kid in my class so yeah I was a year late and then I was really good in school too

how was your relationship with your parents growing up? Agree close with them? Probably not really. My mom was, she had some anger problems. She was physically abusive and emotionally abusive. Yes, I was never really that close to her. Did you spend more time with your siblings for the most part or more like alone? Yeah, we weren't really allowed to have friends outside of the religion and you know unless you're a kid that likes the religion and I wasn't so I didn't really have friends in the religion either yeah so it was uh in 1988 88 after a 10-year break from having kids um my mom had a baby boy and he only lived three months wow my

last day of fourth grade. Didn't know anything was wrong. Everything seemed fine. And my dad yelled out in the night that the baby wasn't breathing. I was 11 years old. And well, we lived in the country. It takes forever for an ambulance. And kind of by the time they got there, he was unresponsive for probably an hour. So kind of knew when he left that was it. And then turns out, well, the autopsy said it was walking pneumonia. So we had no idea he was sick or anything. And then it was 12 hours later, we went to my brother's graduation at the high school. Wow.

So we actually had food, a party planned, guests coming. So the first of us to graduate was on the same day, the first of us passed away. And so people, guests were coming and being told on the spot that, you know, this isn't just a graduation party, you know. So, yeah, that was rough because, I don't know, it's very motherly. Yeah, it's an 11-year-old. I like to having a baby around. Yeah, that summer our parents kind of. they're fighting a lot.

My mom already had problems with rage and anger. So my dad ended up moving out that summer. But he'd come by to visit. Kind of came apparent that he was just stopping in to see his sister, you know? Like he'd bring us treats and stuff, but stopping in like every day after work, we kind of know it wasn't for us at some point. but yeah I think he moved out yeah when I was 11 he moved out and then at some point he

moved back in moved out back and forth a little bit and within a year of um it wasn't even a year before that the baby died that the fifth baby was born so almost right away they were trying to for a new baby. Yeah. And so that's the fifth child and now this this congregation they had a problem with that because they just watched two pregnancies back-to-back. And so the elders took my mother in the back room and they told her that this is a local decision that they're advising that they don't have any more children. They wouldn't make her leave her brother, but there's to be no more pregnancies. Okay. So she, of course, she was pregnant with the sixth child at that point,

but that should, that was supposed to be it. Or she's like risking, getting shunned and stuff. Right. So then he was born in 1989, and there was a problem with him. Apparently, he did not have a properly structured urinary system, and he had a dead kidney. So he had to be taken two weeks early. So my mother and the elders assembled a team of doctors to make sure the baby would not be saved if he needed a blood transfusion. So basically my mom put this baby up for sacrifice for the religion after we just lost a baby. maybe just one year ago. And my dad had left by that point.

He left the religion. But he didn't stop her. He just, you know, let her make the decisions with the elders. Yeah. So he ended up living through everything. He had three surgeries. The dead kidney was removed. And I'm assuming this was all when he was still born, right?

He had like three surgeries before he was six months old. Wow, okay. So they were able to fix everything. And then later, he was born with crossed eyes and they fixed that. Actually, my sister that was born in 1973, she was born with crossed eyes and they fixed that. But other than that, none of us kids really had any serious issues until the six baby. But it turns out that my mom wanted more babies. She was already 40 years old when the sixth one was born.

So my dad wasn't living there anymore. So she was just going out in the evening to his apartment for the sole purpose of having a seventh child. So, but the elders told her she couldn't do that. Right. So, like, I didn't, I was like, 13 at this time. So I didn't know what she was going to do.

I thought she was going to hide the pregnancy. I didn't know what she was going to do. But she ended up moving us to a third congregation instead. So how does that work with like leaving and going to other congregations? Is it based on where you're located or you can just kind of say, I'm done with this and I'm going to try a different one? Yeah, you can go any one you want, but they usually keep a record of your, you know, Miss Deerexie. and stuff or how well you did knocking on doors or whatever but I don't know what happened when we moved to our third congregation because they didn't say anything about the seventh pregnancy

wow so she she got away with defying the elders yeah by moving to a third congregation and actually I mean she was in good standing there they even sent her to pioneer school like you know you've got to be a super Jehovah Witness for that stuff and So here she is. I mean, we're watching people get shunned for smoking cigarettes, for gambling. And she's literally having babies with her brother, and they won't shun her. Because the leaders never revoked, changed their decision. So the local elders had to abide by what was there.

Right. Because the elders can't even go against the leaders. So she had the seventh baby in 1991. and he was healthy. And she then, 42 years old, wanted to try for an eighth baby. Oh, my goodness. But her brother said no. Okay, he was done.

He finally said, oh, he was 52 years old. Okay. And she was 42, and he was done, or there would have been eighth baby. So, yeah, that. So my mother was pregnant by. your brother a total of nine times seven live births and two miscarriages and still got to be a have a witness and good standing that is crazy yeah and um so because we went to this third congregation that's where yeah there weren't some very good people there i mean at the one before

the one we had to move from. It was pretty good. There was one man arrested for molestation, but it was for a non-Jahua witness child. But besides that guy, everybody was there. We went to picnics. I mean, it was nice. They didn't treat us any differently.

Because, I mean, people move congregations, people talk, you know. I think some people there. knew the sibling connection. I think that's why the elders took my mother into the back. People were, they were getting stumbled. Yeah. Especially of watching the pregnancies back to back like that. And were you in school at this time, like just regular public school? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then, but I went to be for long because there came a time where at our third congregation all the Jehovah Witnesses there were pulling their kids out to homeschool them. And even though I was a straight-A student, I was taken out of school. So my education was

ended at, I got to finish seventh grade. Okay. And my mother wasn't capable of teaching me at home. She didn't, I mean, I was already an accelerated reader, writer. There was, there's nothing she could teach me, so I basically just sat at home. And there was no rules about that? Like, she didn't have to submit, like, any type of work that you were doing or anything? I don't know which program she was using, but, yeah, she had to show that I was doing something. And, like, for social studies, she would tell me to read the Watchtower, which is the religious propaganda. Like just all these shortcuts like that.

Right. But so I didn't, yeah, I didn't get any education after seventh grade. And she pulled my brother out too, so his, my closest in age sibling, his education ended at sixth grade. And that was it. We were just done with school. Yeah. The older two did get to graduate.

Okay. Were you upset about that when they pulled you out? Oh, my goodness. I was grieving my education. Yeah. Because by that time, it's, you know, I was a seventh grade. I was about 13 because I went a year late. Yeah, I was, because I was a straight-A student.

I loved school. And I did all the book reading contest and won them all and the old Pizza Hut programs. Yeah. where you get free pizza reading all these books. And, yeah. And then by that time, being about 13, I had no interest in the religion. So the only friends I had was at school.

So now I'm home 24-7. Right. So basically, I'm just at home, take care of the babies. and it's about it because yeah was your mom working at all no okay and um like if a kid from school would be riding their bike and come to the door we'd just be told well you know you can open the door and say hi but send them on their way you know so i would be enforced only to have jove witness friends but at a point they don't want to be my friend yeah i'm not working

towards baptism. I'm a teenager who does not believe in any of it and I'm not working towards baptism so some of their parents don't want them to hang around me. So I have no girls my age to talk to at that point. Luckily I have a sister because there's five boys and two girls. So I had a sister but I had no girls my age to be my friend at that point. And it's just a yeah if you're not working towards baptism and they kind of write you off but this third congregation though had people from our original congregation that had transferred there so they knew who you guys were they heard the announcement

so there was a couple families that no way no how were they letting their children of course in our home but it not alone to be a friend to me I mean, I don't blame them, you know, because, I mean, there's a brother and the sister doing this in the house. You don't know what else going in the house. And, I mean, I don't blame them for that. But that was actually the first time I ever got to feel judged for, you know, for it. Right. And I was going to ask you, too, at what age do you feel like you realized, okay, this isn't right?

Or this isn't how it normally is in families. Hey, I'm Jeremy Schwartz from American Criminal. On this season, robbery gone wrong or cold-blooded murder. Either way, Boston will never be the same. Listen to American Criminal, the murder of Carol Stewart, wherever you get your podcasts. Or to get early ad free access, subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at Americancriminal.com.

It just, when it's all you've known, it's just, I never, like, ever thought it out as a kid, like this is disgusting or you know i just knew at the third congregation and because the elders took my mom in the back that people thought it was disgusting you know or they wouldn't have you know said hey this needs to stop but then at the uh well because we had to move to that one so my mom could get another baby in um that's where i met a man when i was 13, he was 21. And because, well, I'm sitting at home, taking care of babies, I have no education.

My mother is very physically abusive. I mean, punching, hitting, you know, very violent woman. And so I'm just lonely, depressed. Don't have any friends. Can't have any friends. So this guy at the Kingdom Hall, he's. baptized, he took interest in me if no, he's like a 21-year-old man. And me, because I'm pretty much, I felt I was grown in my head anyway, because I'm already taking care of babies all day,

you know. So I kind of soaked it all in. This guy wanted my attention. He liked me, you know. I at that time didn't see nothing wrong with it and we'd uh they had this uh there was a there was a java witness family that owned a roller rink so that we had on Sundays we had joggle witness skate night so I'd meet him there and we'd couple skate in front of everybody nobody said anything there you know like that it was wrong or anything and even the owner was a Jehovah Witness and she walked up on him. Actually, he had his hand in my pants. I'm a kid. He's a man. And she didn't kick him out. She said, you guys don't need to be sitting back here by yourself. Didn't kick him out. Didn't report him. Didn't call the police. So, like,

and he even came to my house one night when my mom wasn't there and was in my bedroom. And my oldest brother, who was also 21 years old, all he said was leaves a door open. My brother, my oldest brother's a very, he was very indoctrinated. So, like no alarms go off with him because this man's a baptized Jehovah Witness. He's in your kid's sister's room and you're still not doing anything, you know. And I guess at a certain point somebody, I don't know who it was, people started, somebody started talking. I don't know who it was. But he ended up getting called back to the elders.

That's what they call a judicial hearing so they can see if he needs to be shunned. I don't know what he said, but he didn't get shunned. They didn't call the police. They didn't do anything. They didn't even do the minimum. They didn't question me. Right. I wasn't baptized, you know. So I don't really count as a witness because I'm not baptized. So my word's kind of not so good.

So do you think if you were baptized and they would have maybe questioned you? Yeah, probably. Probably they would have. But they didn't even question the adult Jehovah Witness, my brother, living in the home. They question nobody. So I don't know what the man said back there, probably like, she's got a crush on me, that's it. Nothing happened kind of thing. but me in my mind

I thought he was my boyfriend so I was happy they didn't punish him right like I didn't I mean I'm living in a house with this brother and sister doing whatever and my mom was very inappropriate in her language and wanting us to look at her body so I didn't think none of it

I thought this man was my boyfriend so I was kind of happy the elderly didn't do what they were supposed to do and didn't have them arrested or anything. So, because they didn't do that, I got to be with them longer, which now sounds pretty messed up, you know, but I'm, you know, I didn't have anybody.

Yeah. So I could tell them all my secrets. He's not going to tell, you know. Right. If he tells all these deep, dark secrets, they're going to know he spent too much time with me. So, you know, he kind of has, to keep my secrets, you know?

And, yeah, they just, they didn't question anybody about it. Yeah, I don't. So there come a time in, when I was 15, started getting just really fed up. She was at home watching babies, no education. My mom, her rage is terrible. we like you don't even know what you could say or do it's just she's just going to go nuts you know and um so then i got so i got kind of like you know i got an abuser at the kingdom hall which i don't kind of process that he's not good then i got my mom at home and i was just tired of being hit

tired of being scared of her and so it was um early February 1993. I don't know, one day I just decided I'm not going to be here anymore one way or another. Just one day. So I decided one night either I'm running away or I'm going to take my life. And didn't know which, because I mean, I got... a bunch of siblings and I love them a lot. You know, that's the only love I had was my siblings.

So I didn't know what to do. My mom was at night classes. So I called my dad. He lived about four miles away. And I told him I was crying and crying and I said, I can't be hit anymore. I need to get out of here. I said,

I asked him if I could come live with him. It's only that was like four miles away. And he told me that he didn't want to get in the middle of things and that I could just deal with it for two more years and then get the hell out of there. Those were his exact words. That was his advice to me. And I even said, I'm running away or I'm dying tonight because I'm not doing this. And he still, that was his advice to me. He don't want to get in the middle of things. So I just got tired of hearing his voice and hung up on him. And he didn't come over to check on me. So by 10, 10 that evening, I was gone. I actually, nine days before my 16th birthday, I left home. And I left,

with a brother from another congregation, because that's who I called after I talked to my dad and there was, he wasn't gonna do anything. So I kinda, when I was 14, started seeing a guy at another congregation as I was seeing the adult man too. When that guy, when the guy closer to my age came into my life, I was still seeing the adult guy too. And then, so I'd say this guy was the one that I called next was my boyfriend.

And he was really shy. I couldn't believe it on the phone. I was so upset because I felt my dad just like said, I don't care if you live or die. Right. And so I actually, I was surprised when he said that he was coming to get me. I'm like, what do you mean you're coming to get me? He's baptized.

You can't come get me. You're going to get shunned. You're, you know, you know. And it just happened all that fast from my dad to calling him. Just like in an hour's time, there was a plan to run away with my boyfriend. I didn't even have no clue that he was going to risk shunning and arrest. Right. And could he, did he have his license and like a car and everything to drive? Yeah, he had a job and he had his, you know, own money and stuff.

So he actually pulled into driveway with headlights out because my siblings were in the house. Was your mom home? No, she was at night school. Okay. And, well, my baby brothers were only, almost two and three years old at that time. So like that was that was hard on me because I can't take them you know so I'm holding them in my arms before I went out and crying and I'm like I don't want to leave them because I know they're going to get abused but I couldn't stay right because even though I was you know thinking suicidal things I didn't want to die

if I stayed I'm going to die because I can't do it and so So yeah, I had to leave the babies, yeah. And that's all I was doing. I was, I ran away nine days for my 16th birthday. But that was all I was doing though at home because I had no educational friends. All I was doing is taking care of those babies. Right. So that's, that was like hard to leave them.

So we ended up, me and the boyfriend ended up, um, just driving. And we didn't really have a plan. He just didn't want me to be hurt anymore. Was he planning on leaving his family as well, or he was just trying to get you out of your situation? No, he loved his family. Okay. And he just couldn't stand what was happening to me.

Yeah. And so, yeah, it was kind of like weird because I'm kind of, so this shy Jehovah Witness boy just says, hey, I can't watch this. You have to get out of there, and I'm willing to take all these risks to do it. You can't stay there. And so we ended up just traveling.

We went through West Virginia. We stayed in South Carolina for a while. So I had my 16th birthday as a runaway, which it really wasn't a big deal because I never had a birthday before, so I was born into the Je Witnesses. So I never had anyone tell me happy birthday or nothing like that. So my 16th birthday on the run wasn't really spectacular or anything. But the thing is, me and him had never been alone together because you're not supposed to as Joe Witnesses.

So I went from him being my boyfriend to never. never being alone together, then suddenly we're on the run and technically living out of hotels, like that quick. Right. Yeah. So that was definitely an experience. And I don't know. He is, he did have the, he's baptized and the job of witness mindset.

So he did want to get married. Even though I'm 16, he was 18. And so we decided, I mean, I don't know, my options were I can't be on the run for two years, until 18 to stay away from my mother. So I did agree to marry him, but we had to sneak back into Ohio so I could pick up my birth certificate and ID to get married. And he, so we actually, his parents, Jehovah, and his parents was a devout child. Jehovah Witnesses hid me out in their home for two weeks as a runaway, risking shunning. Wow.

Yeah, it's kind of weird because these Jehovah Witnesses hiding me from other Jehovah Witnesses. But his parents eventually found out that obviously they made the connection, hey, she's missing, he's missing, we're together. And so they went, his parents went over and actually met my mother for the first time. and she had that bad of a first impression on them that they were willing to risk everything too so I wouldn't go back and they said when they went over there they were talking to her about you know how are we going to find them that nobody knew where we were and they said she just acted like she she didn't care like she didn't love you at all she was just mad she wasn't worried you're kind of mad that you embarrassed her, not worried that are you safe or, you know,

you got food. And probably mad, too, that you weren't there to help with the babies, I'm sure. Yeah, my sister was still there. She, me and her being the only two girls, too, we took care of a lot of things, cleaning, taking care of the babies. So, and also, I guess when they were there, they said that, um, my brother that was almost two he was uh it was it was winter time he was laying on a concrete floor just in a diaper and she said uh she asked his mother asked my mom aren't you going to cover him up

she's like he's fine she was shocked that you'd let a baby lay on a cold floor you know so that was their impression of meeting my mother for the first time so yeah they were willing to hide me out in their home. I mean, they didn't like it. I'm sure they were scared of consequences, but that's... They wanted to help. That's how bad my mother's first impression is probably on most people, but that's what they did.

So I end up being able to get married. Actually, I was married almost a little over two months after running away, so I was just 16 years old. and a wife and pregnant. Wow, really? Yeah. All within the span of two months? Just over two months, yeah.

And were you living with him and his parents at this time? We had, after I came back into town and got my ID and all that stuff, we kind of ran off again and we got married. and because I was well once I found out I was pregnant I didn't need permission for marriage because we were staying out in South Carolina and Georgia but we was consistently staying at

usually the same hotel in South Carolina and there was like there's this the manager there was like a Southern woman she was like in her 50s and at some point I trusted her enough because she kind of suspected I was a runaway. At some point, I trusted her enough to tell her the truth, which was really cool because I kind of like,

I'm on the run from my mother, but for these few weeks in South Carolina, I had a mother, kind of, for the first time. So that was cool. And she, because then I found I was pregnant, and she's the one that said, you know, if you go over to Georgia, you don't need your parents' permission,

if you're pregnant. So, yeah. So how the plan to get married happened was this southern woman so much didn't want me to go back home. She'd rather see me married as a teenager than go back home. So, yeah, it's weird because I had his mom. I had this stranger practically I met that became like my mom, and they're both, you know, helping me not go back to my real mom. So, yeah, it's, I had my first kid at 16.

And was that in Georgia? No, we actually, oh, yeah, we came back to Ohio after, you know, I felt I was legally married and couldn't be arrested for runaway. But I was only back a few days and was arrested. I was arrested at 16 for runaway because the courts had to determine if I was legally married. Okay. And so we went into a court hearing. I only had to stay in custody overnight and then there was the court hearing.

And so, you know, I had the whole get-up on. I had the shackles on my feet and cuffed in the front just for running away. So I was brought through the courthouse like that. So we passed a bench where my parents were sitting for the hearing. And my mother just looks at me really cold. And my dad was actually chuckling. I thought the whole chain system was funny. Like I hadn't set eyes on them in like over two months.

And that's what I get. You know, they finally see their daughter. She's safe, she's safe and sound, and that's what I get. And I'm just like, wow. I guess, I mean, it might be a pregnant teenager, but, I mean, I didn't have any options, but I'm glad I'm away from them. And so the court staff was really awesome. They asked me to write out reasons.

I shouldn't go back home and all that. I only had a whole long list, and luckily, you know, I'm an accelerated writer, reader, had no problem doing that, and the judge emancipated me. He said my marriage was legal, and I was emancipated by the state of Ohio at age 16. And then they ordered for me, I could go pick up. my stuff, my clothing and stuff at my mother's. So my new husband drove me there. And, well, the first thing my mom does is, you know, make fun of, because I gained a few pounds when I'm pregnant. So it's the first thing she does, not a hug, not I miss you, not any of that. So I go out and

get my stuff and I really try not to have any conversation with her at that point. And she, She really was just kind of standing there. She didn't really try to say much to me either. And then I was about ready to get back in the car. Oh, my husband stayed in the car. And I went in my myself. And I about ready to get in the car. And she started screaming from the doorway.

Finally, she wants to engage in something. And she started screaming, I love you, I love you. love you over and over like a crazy woman. She's like, is that what you wanted? That's what, yeah. And my husband had never seen that, that part of her. He was in shock, especially because it's a devout Jehovah Witness woman, and he's a baptized Jehovah Witness. Couldn't believe. Because, you know, he had been over to the house, you know, before. Right. And never was she like that. So my mother was mocking me because I wanted to be loved by my mother.

And that happened to my sister before, too. We were watching a TV show and my sister's like, why can't our family be like that one or something? And my mom started being, she was like, oh, is that what she wants? And we got mocked for wanting to be loved. you know yeah so yeah that I mean it wasn't surprising to me you know that she had to do all that a little surprising that she did it in front of another Jehovah Witness though but because

she tried to keep a lot of it under wraps do you think like do you think in front of um like when you were so with the congregation is it kind of like a community that you guys that like everybody would meet up type of thing well I mean you go to the kindergarten mall three days a week. Okay. So when? And then most of your activities outside of that, you know, like my brother used to like rent high school gyms and then you'd have Jehovah Witness basketball night.

So do you think in front of other people your mom kind of tried to put her in a front like she was this great mother? Or do you think she was pretty much always the same way? I think she was so mentally unstable that she couldn't consistently act. Like she's expected to act. Okay. Like we had this one brother over, a brother as in Jehovah Witness brother over. And he was about 18 years old and he got the shock of his life to see what she was like.

She was actually breastfeeding at the time. She pulled it out and started squirting them with her breast milk. Your mom was squirting the boy? He was like 18 years old. Started squirting another Jehovah Witness with her breast milk in our house. So she didn't have, she couldn't think like, you know, this is wrong. She just did things in the, and, you know, you're exposing your breast to a baptized Jehovah Witness. And squirting him with your breast milk.

Yeah, and he didn't even, I don't think he reported her, but I'm sure he told others in the congregation, hey. you know, there's something wrong with her. And you think that the Jehovah Witnesses cover up a lot of stuff, would you say? I mean, with my family, they did. Or just like brushed it under the rug? Well, actually, we had, oh, it was my 13-year-old brother did go to the elders at our third congregation about the abuse. and he was 13. I don't know if there was two or three elders.

He wanted to talk to the elders about being abused at home. But the elders let my mother sit in on it. So my brother's then forced to tell about the abuse right in front of his abuser. And so I would. wasn't in that meeting, but when my brother came out, he was not happy because he said he felt like they were laughing at him because our mother was already bigger than, I mean, he was already bigger than our mother because he was a pretty tall boy. So he's 13, talking about years of child abuse, and he felt they were laughing him off because our mother's like 5'1 and, you know,

a smaller woman. And the thing is, right then, they didn't question the baptized adult brother that was in the house. They didn't question any of us other children about any abuse. They just dropped it. So we were on the way home that night from the Kingdom Hall, and I thought my brother was going to get it because he just spilled it all. And he was brave.

He did it right in front of her because they didn't give another choice. But my mom wasn't mad. She like glowed all the way home. She was in a great mood when we got home. The elders didn't do anything. She knew they blew them off right there. She was in the room with him. So she was actually in a great mood.

So when we thought, uh-oh, what did he do? and so yeah he did actually try to help us going to the elders so they did they brushed off the relationship I had with that grown man there and then they brushed off my brother same congregation elders too brushed off my brother when he said child abuse but there was a I mean they knew because at one time I came into the Kingdom Hall. I was probably 14. My face was all red and these two brothers there come up and they're like, what happened to you or what's wrong with you? I said, well, just like a half hour before we left our house, my mom just went to town on my face, slapping and slapping and this time my face was still red. And they didn't even act surprised.

Like, yeah, your two grown men standing here asking me, well, my, my face. I said, I'm just on, my face is red and then there's a couple there were a couple like elderly brothers there they used to low-key check on us you know like so they mean they knew the abuse was happening they'd be like oh how are you guys oh how's your mother treating you and one time one of them told my brother well we know we know your mom has temper tantrums. Temper tantrums. That's what they call child abuse, temper tantrums.

I mean, they knew. They knew about the abuse. But usually when the congregation, a majority of the congregation, even too many people know about something, that person will get shunned. And she never did. No.

She didn't. So, yeah, my brother was upset that he thought, The men were laughing at him because, oh, yeah, how's this little woman going to abuse you? But none of us ever hit her back, you know? Right. My sister tried to hit her back once, and my mom tried to break her fingers. We didn't hit her back.

She hit my oldest brother until he was a grown man. He was like 20, I think, the last time he got punched in the face. So, I mean, we don't, we never hit her back. We just took it. I mean, we figured we'd be the one in trouble too, the way she operated things, you know. But so, yeah, that was my closest in age sibling. That was my brother. He, so yeah, he's the one that reported that.

And then he, when he was 17, he actually, he did have a suicide attempt when he was 17. and I don't know, the congregation just let him slip through the cracks and he made it through that attempt with no permanent damage. I guess he took a bunch of pills or something and instead, he didn't get any mental health care and he didn't get no care from the congregation. So my mother decided to put a life insurance policy on him. didn't put him in counseling. So he was, he was dead by 19. So that's my second brother. So three weeks before I turned 21, my brother left our small town.

In passing, he said to somebody that he was done living. Well, this is a funny guy. He's a jokester. He did stunt comedy. Stunk comedy. Like, he did everything, you know, to make people laugh. So I don't think that person thought, this guy's serious.

Yeah. You know, like, he would like, you know, even when he came to my house, he would, like, you know, fall into my house, like Kramer on Sinefeld. Like, he did all this stunt stuff. Right. You know.

So, you know, probably he's always wanted to make people laugh, you know. So I don't think. so it wasn't even two hours after he said that he was pronounced dead he got on the highway and what appeared to be making deliberate attempts to get semis to crash into a sports car and that caught obviously caught the attention of state troopers please so a high-speed police chase started and it was 120 miles an hour and he was coming up to an exit and I guess he took out he took out some guard rails at that exit 120 miles an hour and his

when he was in a Camaro it went airborne into a steel utility pole and he died instantly And the impact was just so severe that it unearthed the actual pole from the ground that weighed thousands of pounds. And that pole came down on his car as well. But he was dead by the time it crashed onto his car. And he didn't have no reason to run from the police. No criminal record, no drugs. None of us ever did drugs or drank. The only thing was what he said to someone two hours before that. He was 19 years old and done living. So his death was aired on World Scarius Police Chases for entertainment purposes. Because they kind of don't tell you at the end. You know. Like the background? Yeah, the person was 19 and on a suicide mission.

Right. So, yeah, he, after all that, he just, I don't know, I guess he became an adult and could process the past. But, you know, I was never, you know, mad about it, you know. Like, I understand, I mean, it came from where he did, you know. but that was so not only did he speak out about the abuse when he was 13 to the elders but he spoke out when he was I think it was nine years old to the to the to the um our other congregation because well because you're a job of witness you're generally let your guard down around

other drug witnesses so my mom was letting him go visit this elder man in the congregation and my brother was like oh after a few times over there he's like I'm getting really irritated every time I go in the bathroom the pee the guy's in the mirror act like he's washing his hands fixing his hair and all this stuff and my brother's nine and he's I don't think I want to go over there anymore it's too weird because he's alone in this man's house this man he got to be to be 70 so an old man old Jehovah Witness man

you know my mom didn't think nothing about letting him go over there to keep the guy company and it was a few weeks later that man was arrested for uh wasn't a Jehovah Witness child but it was one of his family members of a little girl

for molesting her so yeah my brother he spoke out a couple times against things that were wrong but in the end he just couldn't go on yeah and how was your relationship with your siblings after you had moved out and got pregnant did you stay in contact with them or was it kind of hard well i was always uh close to my sister so we um we didn't have uh i mean of course i didn't see her as much because i'd have to go over to my mom's house to do it because she was right when i ran away uh i was almost 16 she was 19 but still living in the house and um so i didn't get to see her as much but i did actually go over there sometimes

just you know to see my siblings because you know the babies were so young you know and one time when I was over there visiting I think I had two kids about that time well I had I had two kids by the time I was 18 three by the time I was 20 but I think at that time I had the two kids so I was like 18 years old the two kids and I was over there visiting and my mom, she went into one of her little rages. She, and she raised her hand to hit me after I've been out of the house. I'm a married woman with two kids. She raised her hand to hit me.

And she, she stopped. I don't know, I don't know why she stopped. She never did before, but maybe because she thought I would hit her back. Maybe that was the first time she thought I'd hit her back. So I had actually gotten a ride there because I didn't have a license for a while. I mean, I'd get a license until I had two kids. But I actually called my dad to come pick me up, take me home. I waited outside with my children.

I'm like, she just, she wants to hit me. I'm like, I'm leaving. So, yeah. Even after I ran away, came, it's so. in her. Yeah. She raised her hand. She was going to hit me.

It's like, no, you ain't doing that. I am leaving. I was way outside in the yard. Did she have a relationship with your children at all? Not a whole lot. Like, do you think she cared that you had kids or she just didn't have that kind of motherly instinct? Yeah, she wasn't that motherly.

I honestly don't know why she wanted so many children. Yeah. there came a point where I thought the whole thing just became a little like a fetish to her. I wish I would say that. Because like she liked talking about her love for her brother. She didn't have to even tell the elders that. She didn't have to tell anybody that. She wanted to tell people that.

Yeah, like she didn't want to keep it a secret. Yeah. Like she told my sister when my sister was in kindergarten. Like, why? Yeah. And then after knowing that everybody's disgusted at the Candom Hall because you keep coming in pregnant, you go and want to do it even more, enough to move to another congregation, you know?

Right. Like, she knew that people thought she was just, what she was doing was disgusting. And she still didn't do it. Yeah, I think it just. Like, yeah, by the time I was, probably by the time I was about fourth grade, I knew how my dad performed in bed. I knew what kind of size he was. My mother liked talking about what she did with her brother, even to children. So, I don't know.

I think initially I think she she got with him out of because she wanted to escape her abuse at home. Then at some point they were both really possessive one another, you know. They were both kind of controlling of one another. Like if, like in time they were, they were separated for a long time. And like my dad went out with other. women and my mom would find those women and say you know what he's he slept with his sister for all these years she would confess to strange women she never met to keep them away from her brother yeah so oh my gosh but actually my mother they actually got uh well we're going to call it divorced in

1998 because they you know they frauded the court to get the marriage license so they had to you then use the court to get a fake divorce so in 1998 they used the court to get that fake divorce because of course the divorce court don't know it wasn't a valid marriage so they actually went through a whole divorce hearings and stuff and so then the 30-year lie was over But I guess it's never over, though, because they don't call each other brother and sister. Like, they still pretend their ex-husband and ex-wife. Yeah. But, yeah, my mom never married anyone.

I don't think she dated anyone after him. Were they the only two siblings and their, from their parents? No, there was ten of them. Wow. So she came from a big family, too. Yeah. Did her siblings have any say or like have anything to say about them being together and having kids together or you don't know? Oh, I know her one sister was very, very embarrassed.

Okay. And her, she had a younger brother that was, he was, yeah, he was talking a little bit. He was pretty upset. And the parents, were they around their parents? So your grandparents? My dad's father never met him. Okay. His mother, he was the first born, so he's almost 10 years older than my mom.

But his father was my grandma's cousin. So my dad's parents are cousins. And then she kind of got ashamed. about that and they actually filed for a marriage certificate but my grandma couldn't get her cousin to marry her so she was ended up you know as a single mother in single mother in 1940 so yeah she had to hurry up find another husband a husband and so she she married a guy and 1941 and and that man adopted my father. And then, I think it was 1946, she divorced that man,

but she had four kids with him. And then she was divorced again. Those five children, because my dad got sent to an orphanage. And she just never came back for him. She just went and she got another husband. So my mom came from that. Right. That relationship.

But yeah, they saw each other growing up and everything. But my dad was raised with his grandfather, and my mom was raised with their mother. Okay. So, yeah, they always knew they were siblings. But, yeah. I think a couple of siblings, like my dad hadn't talked to them in over 30 years. That's probably why. Probably why they weren't accepting it in a way.

Right. But, yeah. I mean, we had cousins at the Kingdom Hall, too. And they just seemed to kind of accept it. They were my mom's cousin who had like four kids. They were at the Kingdom Hall with us, and we went over to their house. and, you know, say any, I mean, they didn't treat us any differently because, because obviously their family, they know that this is brother and sister.

But yeah, I think my grandma was happier. Children were in love. She was, but, you know, that's, the mom comes from that. Her mother was very, very unstable, so. I think, I mean, after all that my mother did, I think a lot of people would think, oh, you must hate her. It's like, she actually was a victim. She started out that way. Yeah.

I don't know how she could ever have healed from what she went through as a child. And is she still around? Yeah. I think her big brother took advantage of her. That's what I think. I think my dad took a victim of abuse and used it because my mom said her big brother touched her since she was nine years old and stuff.

So her big brother, instead of coming to save her, getting her started in life, he made a wife out of her. but she seemed to I mean but she was groomed for years to be his wife yeah so I can't hate her

even though I mean she caused me a lot of harm I feel my brother ended his life partly because of the things she's done to us but I can still you know see her as the victim

you know yeah it's like my My dad was not a violent man to her or to us. But to me, he's the worst person in my story. You don't take a victim of child abuse, you know, to your own sister. And basically turn her into your wife. And then let her spin out of control.

Like he didn't say, he knew he were being abused by her, didn't say nothing. But also just like it doesn't break the cycle. It allows that cycle to keep going down and down. And then he knew she wasn't mentally stable. He let her join a doomsday cult. And then they watched her flip around and, you know, you know, I actually feel bad for my mom that nobody stepped in to say, hey, do you need help, you know?

Do you guys have a relationship today? The only one that Caesar is my oldest brother. Okay. The rest of us, she just, I don't know, it's sad. That's the way it played out, but, you know, she's not, I have children and grandchildren, and she's, I don't feel safe to be around. Yeah. But I think that makes sense because, you know, I think that you can view your mother the way that you want to,

and you don't have to hate her and you can see that she's a, you know, was a victim of abuse as well. But I also think that you're taking that step, like I just mentioned, to not let this be a cycle and to keep your children safe from experiencing, you know, any type of abuse that you experienced, you know? Yeah, I mean, they have met her in their lives, but, well, my children are all adults. Yeah. They don't want any connection. And they know about everything? Yeah.

And my, well, their other, their other, my children's other grandmother is still a Jehovah Witness. They, you know, they're, they love that, you know, they love that grandma and they're close to her. But my mom, you know, she's basically. Is she still a Jehovah Witness? She's a Jehovah Witness and good standing, and she went back to her original congregation, the one who, started the whole thing and approved the whole brother-sister thing. Wow. Yeah, she's 74 years old and still claims to be a devout child witness.

My dad only was in about 11 years, and then it's just too much of a schedule for a, you know, a man that's got a hard job and so many kids, and, you know, you get home from work, and you got to Tuesday, Thursday, be at a Kingdom Hall. Yeah. You day off Sunday at the Keenham Hall. Knocking on doors on a Saturday. A guy that got a physical job in six, seven kids, he couldn't keep up with it. He doesn't talk against the religion or anything, but, yeah, it's just, but all of us, children left the religion.

I obviously was never baptized. Only two of us were. Okay. My oldest brother and the one that died in the police chase, he was baptized. The rest of us, we actually just never accepted it at all from a young age. But, you know, I just find it that, you know, they were still trying as a teenager to get me baptized. Yeah. Like really weird, you know, it's really weird to ask me as a teenager to get baptized when you just let me be with this older man for longer.

you know I know you're frauds. You can't be the true religion. When, you know, you're letting my family there, you know. So, I mean, they're still trying to get me baptized, knowing I know they're frauds, you know. Yeah. Why would you do that? But why?

Because once you're baptized, that's how they control you. Yeah. Well, if you do this, you can be shy. Do you do this? Do you think that your brother passing away, do you think that had effect on your mom at all? She was bragging about the $10,000 she got from the wreck. She had to put that life insurance policy on them at 17.

I mean, I imagine, no matter how bad or unstable you've got, I think you've got to feel something. Yeah. But in my last conversation with my brother was about three weeks before he died. And he said, Mom wants me dead. I'm like, what are you talking about? And I couldn't even say she don't. Because I knew she did that.

She put life insurance on her dad and talked to us all the time about, oh, if your dad dies an accident, I'll get double the money. Oh, I could move to this state. She'd look up these fantasy houses where, you know, if her dad would just die already, she could get this house. She paid on his life insurance for years after they split up, but, you know, he's an 83-year-old man, and she got tired of waiting, so she quit paying on him. But, yeah, I mean, that's really the last conversation I had with him. wants me dead. He was talking about the life insurance. And I told him, don't give her that, you know.

I mean, he didn't, but he never really did appear depressed because he was so funny, you know. So, you know, I was almost 21 when that happened. I have no, I can't, I mean, yeah, I can't look back and say, oh, I should have said this time. I should have said that to my, but when somebody's such a comedian and you can't see the pain, you know, you just can't see it. I realized when I got a little older, I actually did end up, like, what our parents actually taught us, though, was no drugs, no alcohol. We didn't have that in our home, never, no drugs, no alcohol. So if none of us children ever, you know, did any of that to deal with any of this. And actually, I think I am the only one that did end up with an addiction.

When you're a teenage girl in a religion, watching people, like, they're just, they're sexually repressed, they're grieving for sex. like it's sad I guess and because what happened with me and the older man and maybe because my mother was so filthy talking to me when I was so young I just I don't know I was a virgin when I left home married the first man I was ever with and I ended up with the sex addiction I guess a lot of people coming out of that cult end up repressed or probably like me not knowing what to do about sex at all. So yeah, it was, you're told it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. And yeah, I don't know. But I think it was over 20 years of fighting that. I didn't, you know, realize to like maybe even recently that I was actually, that I had my mother's rage.

I didn't know I did. Like she raged at everybody because of her childhood pain. And I was, I was using sex to not feel my rage. And I couldn't heal. I could not heal. I kept making bad decisions. Like, I didn't even know I was that furious, you know. And I had to feel something, something strong.

And so that's when I did. I used. I was actually, so I was married at 16 by 17. I was addicted to sex. I was marrying and I married a repressed Jehovah Witness guy. So,

and that's rough, you know. So I had to feel something, something strong. I didn't want to be like my mother and hit people and punch things and, you know.

So I repress, replaced instead of feeling the rage I was just feeling other strong things I didn't know I was doing it for over 20 years that was that was my rage every time I was doing something sexual that was risky that was this or that that was my rage I didn't even know it yeah it's only been the last I probably last five years that I actually like who I am. My kids had to see this just ugly healing, ugly mess, ugliness when I wasn't even knowing I had to heal. I thought because, you know, well,

I don't hate all Jehovah Witnesses. I don't hate my mother. Well, I'm healed. Well, I wasn't. Right. Not hating is not being healed. So when I gave up, like fought and gave up, like being addicted to sex, then I had to feel everything. And get through it. Yeah, I had to feel all that. I had to, at least for a time, I had to hate them for, you know, hate my parents, hate the Jehovah Witnesses, for, especially for my brother. being gone and took his own life. Like that, I really hated them for that.

But I know, even if we didn't become Java Witnesses, we would not have had easy life. It just complicated it because now we got this whole new set of people that expect so much from us. You know, like at home, we can't do anything right because our mother just out of nowhere do something violent and then we're at a kingdom hall where you're expected to do everything right

you know and actually at least probably three of us have pretty bad OCD to this day probably because it's something to do with that I guess just you can't like a Like we never know when our mother would, you know, like one day my sister did the laundry wrong. So my mother folded up some wire coat hangers and whipped her legs and she had welts all down

her legs and and I think she called my dad or my dad just happened to be come over. We ran out to the road and he inspected her legs and he said, he's like, your mother needs to be an institution right now. And then he just left. You know, it's like, how do you do that? But a couple stories about my brother who died in the police chase. A couple things he was probably messed him up pretty bad was, well, when he was nine, my mother, my mother wanted to do.

a new house. So she sent him up into the attic with matches and newspapers. And I guess she, he thought she was playing a game and he liked it. Mama said I can go up in the attic and make fires. So she sent him up there by himself to do it. And, um, but the reason she, she picked him was because my sister was 14 and told her no. She actually asked my sister to do it. Maybe because she thought she maybe wouldn't get hurt or something. But when my sister said no,

she sent my little brother up there and he did, he sent fires. And when the fire department came, that was in 1987, I believe, the fire department came, she just said her son was playing with matches in the attic. And yeah, so she basically had her nine-year-old son commit orson because she wanted a new house. Now he didn't do a very good job, I guess. So kind of like it damaged the attic a little bit.

And she only got apartment for a month while the place aired out. So she didn't get the new house. She risked her nine-year-old life and didn't get her new house. And another time, then he was, I think he was almost five, she asked him to play another game. And she was sitting in a chair, and she told him to stand on a spot in the middle of the room. So he's thinking, oh, yeah, this, Mommy wants to play games. game. He was just, he was the most eager to please her. Maybe that's why he couldn't live with everything in the end. But, so she had him get, stand in the spot in the middle of the room. He's

thinking it's a game and it's like, you can't move from that spot. And then she starts screaming at him, you're, you're dumb. I wish you were never born. All this, and he's like, five years old, he starts, he didn't know. He found out, this ain't a game game. And he's crying and, like, his lips are quivering. He's crying. I'm in the room. I'm not allowed to do anything. I'm, I'm only less than two years older than him, so I'm probably barely seven. And so when he starts crying, then she starts calling him a big baby because he's crying. And I think he had to stand that spot for, I don't know, seven, but maybe an hour, just hurling insults at him. But he thought it was a game, just like he thought the fire was a game when he, you know, a few years later.

She'd have him do the fire, thought it was a game. So, yeah, he was running from some stuff. Yeah. But I mean, I did, I think after I left home, I did write the elders of some of these other things and never got a response. But yeah, I guess right, I guess now she has the Jehovah Witnesses and I guess we're her former children. Now, we have, I mean, most of us are pretty good. all five surviving of us, so there's two girls, three boys. But my sister had to take in my youngest brother.

He's 32 when he was 19 to get him away from my mother. Because he, socially, he doesn't interact with the world. And so like he's, she's had him since he's 19. So he's never had a driver's license. He's never kissed a girl. He's, you can't go into the world, kind of thing. Yeah. He's like, he's a shut-in.

So, but like, when he was born, she was like, my sister was like 17. So, I mean, he's always kind of been a replacement mother for him. But, yeah, he just, I mean, doesn't seem depressed or anything, but, I mean, he just, I mean, nobody knows he exists you know you say it got like he only trust like his nieces and nephews his siblings and beyond that he just like nobody knows he exists because nobody sees him so yeah me and my sister we look out for our baby brother we know he's we're never going to change him but he seems happy with, you know, what our relationship we have. But I guess I feel that, you know, it's just time to let all this out because it's been so many years. I'm just keeping secrets for people

who I owe nothing to. And it's your life, you know, so if it's something that you feel inclined to share, I think that it's important that you do. And I think to, you, you know, everybody's story is different and everybody's experience is different, but I feel like the more that it's spoken about, the more it breaks certain stigmas in certain ways that people think about things. Because I think that, like we were saying before we started filming, I feel like there's a lot of things that people don't know about. Like people might not know a lot about Jehovah Witnesses or like, you know, or that kind of

thing. Or people might assume that because your parents are brother and sister that you would be. one way when you're really fine and you're great. I know that's the question we get most is, oh, what's wrong with you guys? Right. We're all average or even higher. I'd say my baby brothers are higher intelligence than most. Yeah.

We didn't have any learning disorders besides, you know, the cross-eyes and the baby with the dead kidney or like we didn't have a lot. lot of physical issues. Right. And that's what I think it's, you know, another important part about it is, like I said, kind of breaking that stigma of people being, because that was out of your control. You know what I mean? Like people being judgmental towards you.

Like, what could you have done to prevent that? You couldn't have. You weren't even a born yet. So I think that that's important. And I'm so grateful that you wanted to come on and share your story. I think that it takes a lot of strength and courage to do that. And to be willing to put yourself in a vulnerable position of talking in front of a camera and sharing your story to a bunch of random people. But you did such a great job, really.

Like where I come from, the things I watched in my childhood, I'm, of course, everybody should be sensitive to child abuse. But me, I'm super sensitive to certain things. and like now I keep seeing all the stories and the news of the Jehovah Witnesses and child abuse and probably if not for that. If they would have just stopped doing that and change things. I wouldn't even tell my story, you know? I mean, but I just can't stand. This is still happening to children and just.

And you have a voice? It's sad to watch that, you know, since I was a little girl. Yeah, so you understand. It hasn't changed, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I probably wouldn't tell my story to anybody if the organization would have stepped up to protect children. And here we are.

2023, they have not made any changes. Right. That's why I had to, I have to be here. even though it's uncomfortable. Yeah, and I think it's great because you're becoming that voice for yourself and for other children and other people in general. So I think that's so important and so special and something that you should be so proud of yourself for because that takes a lot to do.

And it's a scary thing, especially when it's something you've never done before. I know that some people probably be mad that I'm here. But at least, I mean, my children, my sister's my best friend. It's like I was funny because I was a joke with my sister. Like she's three, she's three people in one. She's my best friend. She's my sister and she's my first cousin. That's funny.

I was like, I got three people in lunch. She's just one super person to me. That's great. But yeah, she's 50 and I'm 46 and yeah, we still have sleepovers. and yeah, we're very close. Yeah. Well, you did a great job, and thank you again so much for wanting to come on here and share your story. It means so much to me, seriously.

You did great.