We're All Insane - Psychedelics Saved My Life

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

In this captivating video, join us on a profound journey of healing as we explore the transformative power of psychedelics in the life of one young woman. Follow her remarkable story of struggle, resilience, and ultimately, profound healing through the use of psychedelics. Delving into the depths of her mental health challenges and the conventional treatments that fell short, witness her courageous decision to explore alternative therapies, leading her to the doors of psychedelic-assisted therapy. Gabriella's Links: Website: https://www.holistichobbyist.com Instagram: @gabriellaindigo_ If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me DeVora. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. Hi, I'm Gabriella and this is my journey on healing with psychedelic medicine. So I guess I'll just start at the beginning then, like from childhood. So I had always kind of known that my brain was a little bit different from everybody else's. And I could tell that by the things that I was thinking and feeling insane. If I would ask other people about it, nobody really could resonate with what I was talking about.

And at the time, that didn't really make sense to me, but I just knew that like my thought patterns were probably a little bit different. And the things that I was noticing was what I now know as depression when I was really, really young. But at the time, I didn't have the terminology for that. And I think also I wasn't ever sad. But I would just feel really like out of place and like life was pointless and like I didn't want to be here. But it wasn't in a way of like I am thinking about actively like harming myself or ending my life,

which is the other reason I never thought I was depressed. because I didn't have those active, like, suicidal ideations. And what age was this? The first time I remember I was five. And I distinctly remember this story of, like, my grandparents had this cabin and we would go to it during the summer. So it would sit empty for like a few months, like, during the year. So we went to this cabin and a quail had somehow gotten inside.

So when we got there, the bird was dead somewhere in the building. And I remember going to my brother and being like, do you ever wish? that you were sometimes like that quail. And he was really confused by me asking that. He was like, no, like, I don't know what you mean. And I was like, oh, you know, like sometimes you just don't want to be here. Like I remember saying that to him and I know that I was around four or five years old. So that was like the first like concrete example.

And I can remember moods like around then or before that. Like I would just feel like a storm cloud or something kind of like clouding my judgment, my vision. And I would just start to feel really off and like moody. And I would just walk away from the group. And this was even at like a really young age. But it wasn't like any sort of like action or incident had like happened right before that. It would just come over me and I would need to like exit.

And I had always kind of like had those ups and downs with my moods. It wasn't like quite what I would characterize as a mood swing. But it was definitely something to where I like felt super like othered and like alienated from people around me. And it was internal. Like something in me was disconnecting from connecting with other people. So like always having that in mind, I'd always been really curious about like how does my mind work and how to other people's minds work. And so delving down that path, I ended up, I got a degree in psychology.

Like I studied it. It was always really of interest to me. And then with myself, like going a conventional path, I was like, okay, like I know I have these moods and these feelings. like what might be happening there. So for a long time, I had thought that I was on hormonal birth control for a really long time. And I noticed a lot of side effects of that with myself.

So when I came off of that, I was like, okay, great. Like, this is my answer. This is going to change everything. Right. Yeah. Like everything's going to be so different now. And while a lot of things did change for the better for me, there was still that pervasive underlying feeling of like sometimes just sinking into.

this place of like I don't want to do anything and I don't want to exist. Like I just want to evaporate. It's like the best way I could describe it. And plus like since those feelings started at such a young age, it's like almost like it was ingrained in you. Yeah. Yeah. Like I know I personally got used to that, right? And also I have this tendency of like if something like that has been happening or even if I go through an event that is like explicitly traumatizing, I just kind of will like take it on the knee and be like, okay, like that was a thing and like keep it moving. I'm the same. I'm literally the same way.

Yeah. So like, and I know I've had so many like breakthrough times in therapy where we're trying to like trace back like where do you think this belief comes from. And I'm like, oh, maybe it was like this memory of this really horrible thing. I don't know. And I'm describing it kind of like giggling whatever. And my therapist is like jaw on the floor. That's like a way to cope though. Totally. I'm literally the same way. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. It was like it wasn't. is, like my main defense mechanism is like if I act like I'm not bothered or I'm not concerned, the thing that happened to me, the thing that I'm experiencing isn't concerning, isn't bothersome. Yeah, it's not that hard. It wasn't traumatizing. Exactly. Like, I'm all good because look at me.

Like, I'm talking about it. Like, I'm all good. So having that tendency and then having that like predisposition of like this is my whole life, it just kind of was like, yeah, like, I don't know. Like, I just have a weird brain. Like, I just have a different brain. it just is what it is. Like, okay, without considering the fact that, like, maybe even if it is normal in the sense

of like maybe a lot of people experience that, it doesn't have to be something that a lot of people experience or that I experience. Like, there can be something on the other side of that, right? So when I came off birth control, that was when I was like, okay, great. Like, I feel like this is going to be it. And mental health-wise, like a lot of things for me did improve with birth control. I was like experiencing way more severe mood swings. Like, um, and I was a little more erratic.

Like I just, I felt emotionally out of control on birth control. How long were you on birth control? I was on birth control from 13 to 21. Okay. So, uh, I just came off of it. How do you feel? So it's been, it's recent, but I was on it, I think, from 18 to, I mean, I'm 26. So until I was 26.

Mm-hmm. And I just got off of it. it maybe a month ago. Yeah. Or like a month and a half. So it's kind of still fresh. But like I wasn't getting my period or anything. And then yesterday like I finally like really got it.

And I'm like, oh my God, the cramps. And I definitely feel more. I feel like the emotions like you're sad. But then you're okay. Yeah. But I haven't felt because I have like, I kind of like resonate with your story. Like I have the I kind of thought maybe birth control is the reason why I feel like I get angrier.

I lash out sorry about blue. That's okay. But, but no, like, and but yeah, I haven't been off it that long to really know. But I did get off of it because I know that it's not the best for you. And I was like, I'm not really seeing anybody right now. So why don't I just take this time to get off and be natural? Yeah, yeah. Love that.

Love that. Yeah. I know I, so many positives came for me coming off of birth control. But I also understand it's a personal decision. And like the reasons why I was on it in the first place was when I was 13. And I, like, started getting a little bit of, like, acne, whatever. So my doctor at the time just was like, oh, yeah, like, we'll just put her on this, like, no big deal. But my periods were never really an issue.

It was just kind of the skin. And it also never fixed my acne. So there was that, right? So it was, like, the whole reason I was on it. Like, I wasn't seeing that benefit. But when I came off of it, I was like, I'm not, you know, taking this for a reason of, like, alleviating a symptom of some sort. And I just kind of had started taking it.

it like, um, like not compulsively, but I was taking it without thinking about it, right? Of like, this is just part of my daily routine. And so I just started down that path of like, okay, well, what if I want to change something about me that I experience every day, I need to look at the things that I'm doing every day. And that was one of them. So eliminating that, um, emotionally like, it definitely like cleared up a lot after that initial adjustment period of like, oh my God, okay, like these are things I haven't like felt and whatever, like in a long time. So that was like a little tumultuous in that sense. But coming off of that, like I felt much more stable, but I still was like having those periods of like slipping into that place

or even like an intrusive thought almost of like you don't want to like you don't need to be here. Like you don't want to exist kind of thing. And how that manifested for me a lot of the times was just really annoying. Like I would feel like. I would feel like. fine and I wouldn't be actively like in a suicidal ideation but this thought would come up and it was always just like what the fuck like why are these thoughts popping into my head you know it was like this little like demon voice in the corner like peeking out of me. And nobody wants to be constantly feeling sad almost like those are sad negative thoughts. Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like I'm over you. Naturally you're going to feel sad. Exactly. I'm going to have a positive joyful. Right. Right. Yeah.

Especially when there's like life events that would. almost corroborate that, like going through a breakup or like going through a really hard time or like trying to figure out like what do I want to do with my life or, you know, however that might show up and look. If you are experiencing something like externally that isn't great is putting you kind of in a bad mood, a sad place, then that internal voice has that opportunity to be like, see, told you so. Like exactly. Like you shouldn't exist. Confirms it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so since like Like, you know, I studied psychology and just like general like thought pattern of like, okay, I know I'm having these thoughts.

I know that they're maladaptive. And I know that like these aren't normal things to be like thinking and feeling. So my initial. And I had never wanted to go on medication for mental health, which not because I'm against it, but just because I was like, no, I want to try and like see if I can do this a different way. I think too. I have a very similar mindset.

because I think clearly you're feeling that way because of something deep down. And I think that in some ways, taking a medication is a way of kind of just like putting a patch or a band-aid on something. Yeah. Not against it either. But I think that it is important. Even if you're on medicine, I think it's important to do that along with therapy or along with trying to figure out what is this, what is this stemming from? Yeah, exactly. That's important.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like I think medication is a really great supplement in the healing. process should you decide that that's a good fit for you and you have a practitioner that is prescribing that, like not against it. But I just know that I've had a lot of friends and like personal experience like going to see a psychiatrist and they're just kind of like, all right, like take this. Right. Have a good day. Goodbye. Like you have five minutes with them and even if you feel like the medicine wasn't working or you want to try something different, like, you know, not all psychiatrists, but a lot of the experience that I, you know, I'm.

know of and I've had personally too is very dismissive of like, we'll just take this pill and like come back in eight weeks and see what happens. And it's like, oh my God, like, well, in eight weeks, like if I feel worse, like what is going to happen in eight weeks? Like, you know what I mean? So that kind of thought of like, okay, I know maybe their heart is in the best place, but I don't feel heard by the system, especially after the whole like birth control thing. Like there was a lot of symptoms that I had described that going to see a provider, they were like, no, there's no way that it's that. So it just resulted in them wanting to like pile on more medication, which I was like, no, like I just feel like maybe there's an alternative way or at least like I personally

want to see what the alternative might be without that. So like thinking further into that, like, okay, so I know I have this brain and it does this thing. Like what are ways that I can kind of of, you know, combat that, right? And I think like my mentality now is different, but at the time, it was very much like, how do I beat this, conquer this, like overcome this versus now my mindset is not so much like this is a thing that we're going to eradicate, but we're going to learn to work with it, right? So at the time, I was still very much in that like, we are going full tilt to like destroy this thing, right? And I don't think that was the healthiest mindset either to have because when you kind of look at things in that all or nothing context, if it's not all,

it's nothing, right? So if I wasn't like 100% like where I wanted to be on this healing journey, in my mind I was still kind of failing. And setting myself up for that cycle, I think kind of like kicked the can down the road for the potential for real healing, right? So when I was going into it, like I'm off birth control. I'm like trying to think of what to do. I decided that my diet and exercise were like probably the things that I should focus on. Like it just made the most sense. Like everything that I'm putting into my body and doing with my body is likely having an effect on it.

So I need to like focus on that. So getting really into a really healthy routine, I was like not eating processed food. I was like exercising every day, like doing yoga, like trying to meditate. I was feeling really, really good. And then I got into a relationship that did not serve me at all. So I like, you know, brought all these. like really good habits and like really good intentions into that. And it just he, in hindsight,

he was emotionally abusive and he just wasn't a good guy, right? But at the time, I was so young that I didn't see that him and his mom had this emotional enmeshment going on that was like very, very toxic. And she would point blank to me to say like, you're not his priority. I am. So kind of really making me feel like left out and on the outside of it. And I was internalizing that and that internalization of like, yeah, I shouldn't be here and I'm not important. Paved the way for like those, that voice to come back and be like, yeah, see, told you. Like you can't run this off kind of thing. So that put me like or I like slowly kind of slipped back into that place that I was at before, like before trying to be really healthy and like all that. And even I see now

like my healthy habits, I was going about them in a really unhealthy way. It was this like obsession and like anxiety fueled energy of like, no, I like I need to eat a certain thing and like do a certain amount of exercise and then I'm going to be better like that neuroticism and like trying to really control it. When that got thrown out of balance, it felt like a personal failure of like because I couldn't keep this like tight control on what I was doing, I failed. And I know that now to not be true. But at the time, that was, you know, that's like how it hit me. So get out of the relationship with him.

And I knew it needed to happen. I knew that it was for the best, but still had to go through that grieving phase. And in the grieving phase of the relationship, a lot of my own personal shit was coming up with that too. And at the time, it was really hard to parse out. like what is breakup sad and what is me sad? It just hit me all as like one wave. And so I deviated back to that original. Like I'm going to be like super over the top, like super in control of like everything that I'm doing. And that's going to fix it. And it would make things better for a little

while, right? Until like another upheaval would happen. And in my case, like the pattern that I noticed was unhealthy relationships. It was someone that at first would seem great and like we had the same interests and they were cool and like we had similar values and like life goals. But then there would be something like an enmeshment with their mom or like they didn't have any sort of like emotional like regulation skills and they would like take that out on me or like their friends or whoever. Like these little things that like I would have noticed in the beginning. but because I was just like letting myself be blinded by like a new relationship. Yay.

I wasn't really paying close attention to what I was actually seeing. Right. And then you get wrapped up in a relationship like a couple of years in. It ends. And like all of that shit just hits you at once of like, oh my God. Like I kind of knew. It feels like you're starting from scratch again. Yeah.

And again and again and again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in a like in a way you kind of are because you're coming out of these relationships. relationships that don't serve you. And you're like back at square one, at least for myself. I'm like back at the beginning of that same healing journey of like, okay, like I've broken

up. Like I see maybe or I see my role in why this relationship was what it was. I see why it needed to end. I see how it affected me. Okay. We're going to go back to having this like crazy routine. Um, and then find another relationship or something like something external that I can like focus on, have that, like, control over because if I have something external and I'm getting

the results that I want from it externally, it was validating the internal of like, see, I'm on top of my shit. I got this. I'm good. Like, I, like, I'm exercising and eating well, so I, like, look great, like, physically, like, I feel great. And I have this boyfriend that's, like, hot and has a good job. And, like, we travel and, like, love each other. Like, everything's great. Like, we're all good. But inside there was that little voice just like waiting for the opportunity to say like, hey, guess what? I never went anywhere. I'm still here.

And I was always right. Right. So then eventually, you know, like the other relationships that I got into, like they ended all in like a very similar kind of pattern. So then I'm kind of left at what feels like square one and I have myself. Right. And so also at this time, I'm like like COVID's starting to happen. in like all these things and I get in another relationship, right?

And the thing that I realized too about these relationships is I like, it wasn't ever someone who I like from the jump was like I really want to date them. Like I want to be their girlfriend and like we need to figure out how to make a relationship work. It was like a very passive process on my end. Like I knew I liked them and I knew that we were like behaving in a way that like a boyfriend girlfriend would. But I just would never like verbally like corroborate a relationship.

Like if they tried to bring it up, I would skirt around the conversation. And I think I just was really bad at like owning my feelings. Because if I owned my feelings, I would also have to own. It's scary too. Totally. Yeah. And if I'm owning the positive and the lovey-dovey and the good, I also have to own the bad. And I just, I was not ready to do that at that time.

But so like I get in another relationship, same kind of thing. You know, like similar, similar like archetype that he had to like, other relationships and I had similar behavior of like, okay, like I guess if you're just kind of like going to hang around and call yourself my boyfriend, I guess you're my boyfriend. Versus like internally, I very much like liked this person, like wanted to be in a relationship, but my external was like, hey, whatever, I guess if you're there. So COVID happened. That was like a whole thing.

Obviously there's all these like new stressors and like life is different. And everyone collectively and individually like lost their minds a little bit because of the stress of the like lack of clarity, all that. I was totally in that camp of like, I don't know what's going on. So just kind of being a little weird in that way. And then 2022 came and that just ended up being like such a life changing year for me. So in 2022, three, four things happened, right? So both my grandparents died, not at the same time, but like months apart.

and they were really important to me in my life. And even though, you know, they're really old, so like, you know it's coming, but to still experience that and have it happen was like, oh, my God, like, okay. Like, this is really sad and this is something that even though I knew it was going to happen, like hit me really hard. And even though I was ready for it, as ready as I could be, right? There was still a big part of me that, like, wasn't ready. And in that year, too, that relationship that I just mentioned, like that relationship

ended, even though it needed to happen. Still, there's like a grieving process with that. And I also got pregnant and had an abortion, like all in 2022. So a lot of moving parts that year and a lot of like really big events that were worthy of me grieving, even if they were unworthy, right? If I wanted to grieve it, as is my right. But like, you know, I went through a lot that I think anybody looking at that or hearing that would say like, damn, Like, that's a big year. Like maybe, you know, take a step back, like whatever. And I, I did the opposite. I like made myself even busier. Like I started working a lot more. When I wasn't working, I always made sure that I had plans. Like, if it wasn't traveling or like going to a music festival,

like I was going out, like doing something. Like I was never home. I was never really by myself except for like to sleep. Busying myself doing things constantly. Right. just to kind of like stay above all of the internal noise of like my body and my spirit being like if you stop then you're going to have to it'll catch you yeah exactly like it's you know if it's running a million miles an hour I need to go a million plus one right like I need to stay one step ahead because if it gets me like you're screwed it can't get me it wasn't even like oh when it gets me what am I going to do it was like no like it can't get me it won't get me I'm staying one step ahead right? So in doing all of that, you know, obviously like that's a lot of things to be

running from. Within that year, I had started looking into different plant medicines. And these are things that like I had always known about, like I'd always had interest in. But the thing with plant medicine is that you, the time to do them that's right is when you are called to it. Right. So most people know what ayahuasca is or most people know what like peyote is or like buffo things like that but the divide between like learning about it and actually doing it is generally pretty big because you hear a mixed bag of stories of people that have done it like some people will describe it as like the most amazing and some people will describe it as the most horrible and you don't know what you're going to get unless you do it right so the sentiment of like you do it when you're called to it

It's like you're ready for whatever happens. Like even if when you take the medicine, you're shown some like deep, dark, fucked up, like I cannot unsee that type of shit. You're entering in with the expectation like that might happen. And I'm okay with that. And being ready means not that like it's going to be easy. Even if you are shown like the fucked up scary stuff, it's not saying like, oh, like I got this piece of cake. It's like I know this might be really, really hard.

but I think that I can handle the hard and there's a lesson in that maybe. So I had always known about it. And then after 2022 or like during 2022 as like shit is just kind of like hitting the fan for me and I'm like acting like everything's fine and seeing how very out of control everything around me is in a way that like for this time in my life, I couldn't. There was no way I could like put the reins on that and like reel it in. Like it was just out of my hands. and I knew that.

So I was like, okay, like, I feel these feelings starting to creep back in. And I also was starting to see how I was self-medicating, like, from those feelings. Like, I was starting to drink a lot more. I was staying really busy. Like, I wasn't allowing time to just, like, sit with myself. I was, like, smoking weed. And if, like, if you had looked at my behaviors, maybe from, like, an unknowing perspective, it may not have looked, like, that bad.

but it was a big change for me still. And I know like the things like drinking and like weed, like those had been increasing over the years. Like there was a period of my life where in like one of those healthy phase or in all the healthy phases like I wouldn't drink. Like I wouldn't smoke. I wouldn't do any of those things because at the time that was another way of control of like I don't want to be fucked up because like I want to be as in control as possible.

It wasn't consciously how I was like how I was like. looking at it, but that's what I was doing. So then in these like preceding years, me starting to like escalate that behavior was a huge change from where I was at before. And it at one point hit me that that was like a really big indicator of like something like something's changing in you. Like the more that you're trying to like clamp down and like control things and like have this process that you think is working, it's not working. Like if anything, like you are going down a rabbit hole of worse behavior because now we're mixing substances in and we're mixing a really hefty dose of denial in too. That's me saying like, no, like the sadness does not live

in me. Like I got this and I'm just going to have a few drinks because I love drinking. It was like, no, like you're trying to quiet the voice and experience and life has proved that like you can't quiet the voice. Right. So certainly like reevaluate my baby. behavior. One of my friends, she had signed up for an ayahuasca retreat that was going to be in Costa Rica in February. So I was like, okay, like I've always wanted to do it. Like, that sounds awesome. And her and I, we had done a bunch of other things before, like, we're into breathwork and like yoga and like transcendental meditation, like all these things that can put you in an altered headspace that don't involve substances. Like, we were really into that. So we were like,

okay, like, we'll do ayahuasca now and that'll be like the next step in our healing. So signed up for that and had heard all the stories about it, but didn't know like what my experience was going to be. So trying to go into it with like a really open mind. And even like in the prep work for it, I could feel how I was like, you know, people would ask, we'd have like a few Zoom calls before. I'd be like, oh, okay, well, like tell us about yourself and like what your intention is. Like when you do any plant medicine ceremony, there's an intention that you bring to it because they're not intended to be party drugs.

Like you wouldn't want to like do ayahuasca like at the club. I would hope. Like I don't know if anyone's done that. But it, I hope not, right? Like it number one, don't do that because it wouldn't be fun. But two, like the benefit you get from these medicines isn't because they're like helping you to like forget the way that like a party drug might of like, okay, we're going to just like take the pain away from you and let you exist, like, in ignorance for a little bit.

And that's what makes it fun versus ayahuasca or like any sort of like ceremonial psychedelic is like, we are punching you in the face with everything that we know to get you to look at it. Right. So you want to have an intention going into that because, again, you're not just doing it like errantly. So even in like naming what my intention was, I could feel it was like very hard for me to just say like, I'm here to like heal these Trump.

or like heal from these events or like whatever. I was like, oh yeah, like I just want to see what happens and, you know, whatever, which like there is a big degree of truth to that too. Like I was very curious and I did want to see what happened. But even in like setting my intention for this ceremony, I was like not wanting to own it, not wanting to own like this is why I'm here. This is what I want to do. So, you know, and that's something that became more clear to me like after the fact for

sure. But, you know, still entering into ceremony, I was just kind of like, I'm just kind of here. But inside, I was like, girl, like, there's a reason you're here. You know it. I was just like not in the, not ready to like claim it. So going into the ceremony, how our retreat was set up is we do three ayahuasca ceremonies. It's like a five-day retreat. And so three of the nights you do ceremony. And then one night is a peyote-hachuma ceremony. And in between the ceremonies, like during the day. There's like yoga or a Temescal, which is like a traditional like Mayan sweat lodge. You could do combo, which is not psychoactive, but it's used as effectively like a cleanse before plant medicine ceremonies. It originally was for Amazonian warriors to like fortify themselves before they

would go to fight. So it's anti-inflammatory, anti-microbial, like all that stuff. It makes you puke and shit and cry and like all that. But it's not a psychedelic. So you're not like having that experience, but it's just helping to purge things, whatever is in your body out of it. So then when you have plant medicine, your vessel, so to speak, is, you know, more primed for it. Like there's not as much like resistance like physically, especially because ayahuasca, you drink it. So there's a whole like dieta before, which is just essentially an anti-inflammatory diet because you want your gut to be in really good shape so that you get optimal. absorption of the ayahuasca, since it's a tea. And ayahuasca is a psychedelic, right? Yes.

Yeah. So ayahuasca, like the brew, it's the ayahuasca plant and then a vine that I can't remember the name of, but the ayahuasca plant is the psychedelic. And then the vine that they put in it is an M-A-O-I inhibitor. And so the M-A-O-I inhibitor is what allows all of the DMT, the 5MEO DMT, to free flow through your body and allows you to have that experience. So if you just like consumed ayahuasca without an MIOI inhibitor, you could maybe like have a little microdose experience, but your liver is going to filter all of that out because the DMT is a substance your body makes naturally. So when there's an overabundance of it in the body, kind of same with alcohol.

Your liver is like, this isn't good. Like we want to get this out of here, right? So you need both components of that in order to have like the full like psychedelic, you know, experience, right? So, oh, I lost my train of thought where I was going with that. Okay, so five days, three ayahuasca ceremonies. And typically, like, each ceremony will kind of, like, build on the previous one. And they're all optional as well. So, like, if you have a really, like, intense, bad trip, then you don't have to do the second night or the third night. Or you can always, like, alter your own dose. Like, they pour you, like, a standard, maybe like a six-ounce kind.

cup and you can always request like, I want more of like a homeopathic dose or like I want half a cup or there's people that'll like drink like three or four cups and just really like go for it. Right. So it depends on the experience that you want and your tolerance too. So the ceremonies can build on each other so that like by the third night, you're going into that with everything from the first two nights for maybe a different experience or like deeper clarity like each time you go in, right, which also circles back to the importance of the intention, because if you're just kind of going in untethered, like, I don't know, like, what I'm going to get out of this or what I want out of this, then inevitably, like, you're going to have kind of a mixed bag experience. And there's always a lot of debate of, like, the things you see during a trip like ayahuasca, like, are you seeing repressed memories or are you just like tripping balls and, like, kind of seeing whatever? and then just whatever interpretation you want to draw from that is like up to you.

And I'm somewhere like in the middle of those two things. Like there's some things that I saw that like gave me such intense deja vu that I feel like it would have had to have been a repressed memory. But there's some things that you see that are like so kooky that like I'm like, okay, that was probably just a hallucination. I'm okay with that. Like a lot of people will see elves and like aliens like tinkering on them. I don't think that.

that that's actually happening. But, you know, who's to say? Right? Like, interpret that how you want in my mind. It's just like, okay, like, if I see elves working on me, like, I'm comforted because that to me is like representative that maybe, like, the universe is looking out for me. And this is just like my brain giving me a visual to like show that. Right.

So with each ceremony, like you can see shit, smell shit. Like, things are just happening. So you don't do just one ayahuasca ceremony. You're doing multiple. Multiple. You're taking it multiple times. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you're taking it in ceremony, like, every day. And again, like, you could opt out of the ceremony or you could go to the ceremony and maybe not take any at all that I'm not sure of. But, yeah, how much you want to take is up to you. And are you throwing up each time? I'm Anna Garcia, host of True Crime News, the podcast. Every week we bring you in-depth coverage on cases making headlines as well as those that go under the radar. Tune in for murders that defy explanation, mystery seeking exploration, and shocking secrets that will leave you breathless. Each week, we honor the victims by going beyond the salacious in our search for justice.

Crime never stops, and neither do we. Listen to true crime news available now wherever you get your podcast. Not always. So I know that, like, I didn't throw up at all, like, during any of my ayahuasca journeys, which is really, uncommon. I did get really nauseous. Like, I definitely felt the urge to throw up. But I don't know if what I can only speculate is maybe like, again, that like sense of control that I had said that like made me feel in control. Like what I can kind of like extrapolate is that that was subconsciously that defense mechanism kicking in for me of like I've always hated throwing up. You know.

Some people are good at just not. Like they can like hold themselves back. Yeah. If I'm nauseous, I'm like, It's coming out. It's done. Yeah. We're doing it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like so the opposite.

And like I don't know. I like I can imagine a lot of that has to do with control like for me personally. Um, and it's just I've had so many bad experiences barfing too that like, you know, you don't want to. Yeah. No, never. You don't want to relive those. Right.

Um, so I know like during ceremony like I was so nauseous because it's this crazy like cerebral like concussion kind of nausea. It's not just like, oh, like my stomach. a little upset. Like I might need to like puke or something. It's like you just got hit in the back of the head really hard and it's like that kind of like woozy type of barf. So it's really intense. And some people also like have to run to the bathroom. Like that kind of varies. Some people will like puke and shit at the same time. And you guys are all in like a group. We're in a group. How many people was it would you say? There was probably. I want to say like 12 people.

Okay. So like people are like puking in front of each other. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They are. And they're, um, so the way that we had it set up is that we were inside of, um, oh my God, what is it?

It's a malacca. A malacca. And you could go in and out if you chose and there was like a beautiful like grass, like field. We're on top of the mountain like see the stars and there like bathrooms out there. So you could go in and out like as you please. Like if you needed to go puke in a bush, you could do that. But you're also given a bucket, like a personal bucket at the beginning of ceremony.

Um, so if you're inside, people aren't sitting in the buckets just to clarify too. Like that's in the bathroom. That's where that happens. But your peep bucket, because like if it hits you, like it hits you and it's happening like right then, right? And you're like disoriented to like you have your wits about you enough that you can like take yourself to go to the bathroom, which is the like I think really wild thing about ayahuasca is it so powerful.

But like I still fully could like stand up and like walk outside if I want to. too with a little difficulty because like your vision is a little like your eyes are kind of doing this like back and forth thing. It has to do with like the serotonin something in there. And your legs like it kind of feels like your knees are locked like and you can't bend them as effectively. Like you can but it just doesn't seem that way. But you can still like take yourself and like do what you need to do. So it's not scary in that way of like I'm tripping nuts and now I can't move what the fuck. But yeah. So you have a bucket. So if you're like inside during ceremony when people start puking, it's just like this cacophony of like vomiting and

people like screaming and crying. Like there's people that are sobbing and like talking like either they're reliving a memory or just saying whatever out loud. But there's people like what sounds like in the moment like begging for their life and like vomiting. And there's also like music and like people singing like and there's like smoke and smells and all this stuff happening. So inside, like, you hear everything that everyone is going through.

And it is very intense. And being in there, like, I felt really overwhelmed. So I know that I had to like take myself outside a lot to just like sit under the stars and like have my experience. Right. Um, which I also recognize too, looking back of like ways that I've removed myself from situations. Like when I was little. Like if something like I would get into one of those moods, like I would just storm. off, like away from the group of like, okay, like something about this isn't landing with me,

whether it's like I'm overstimulated or like I am in a mood. I am like removing myself. And I like see how I was doing that and ceremony too of like I'm just going to take myself outside and like be alone to process this, right? Which that ends up being a theme that I've like focused later on of like, I don't have to do it all alone. But in the moment I was like, people are screaming and barking and shitting, I need to get out of here, right? So that was kind of like the flow of all of our ceremonies and we did three of those and it's at night. So you get there at like six o'clock and then whenever the sun goes down, that's when like things start to get rolling. And there's a whole ceremony like leading up to it where everyone will like state their intentions and you like bless the medicine

that you're using and like you thank the land and the people that lived on it before you. Like there's whole process and then you start the ceremony which will usually go to like two or three a.m. Right? So that's long. It's really long. Yeah, really, really long. And I don't know why they do it at night. I think there is a reason, but it also, we're in Costa Rica. It's really hot during the day. So being on a really heavy psychedelic in the heat of the day, not a good idea. So you're doing this like in the middle of the night when it's like a little bit cooler. And I don't know, the ender, she's just like different, right? And how long would you say that it lasts, like in your system? I would say it, I think like six to eight hours is generally like the guideline for that.

And I know that like when the ceremonies end, like you are still feeling it. Like you're still under the effects of the medicine. But it's not like like a street drug where even when like the party's over, you're still like very actively like headily in a trip. It's like, when the music stops and you're like sitting with the quiet, you can feel that you have a substance in you. But it also responds really well to when you are like, okay, like, well, we're going to sleep now. Like we're powering down. It's really intuitive in that way, which is like a really, I mean, it's why it's used as medicine, right? Like it definitely has a power to it.

Yeah. So like six to eight hours, again, just like depending on the person or maybe like how many like doses you took. only ever did one cup of medicine because it felt like it was really doing it for me. So I didn't see the need to like push it. And like each ceremony that I had, I like, I don't know what I wanted out of it because I, I mean, I wanted healing, but I didn't know like I wasn't ready to ask for that specifically. Like I couldn't even really like own my intention. I just was like, I just want to feel better and see what happens. And I largely think I got that out of my ceremony. I got like what I would ultimately describe as positive, but very vague.

Like people were talking about you do an integration circle like the day after. And integration is just like you talking about your experience and then how you're going to apply it to your life. Um, because psychedelics are a really incredible tool, but they're ultimately a spotlight. Like they can show you the parts of yourself or the parts of your life that you maybe do or don't know that need more attention. or need to be looked at differently, it'll broadcast that and highlight it for you.

And then the purpose of integration is like, okay, now that the psychedelic has taught me or shown me something, how am I going to use that knowledge in my life to make the changes that I want getting from this experience, right? So the purpose of integration is to help, like, solidify your experience, like put it into words and also it starts to be the building blocks for, towards actionable steps that you can take to change whatever it is about your life that you had

the intention of, right? Whether it's like healing or like your habits or your mindset, like the integration is like, that's really where like the magic and the medicine is. Like the psychedelic is an amazing catalyst, but integration is like the stuff. Like if you're building a house and someone gives you power tools, it doesn't actually like build the house. You still have to pick up the tools and like drill things to the wall, right? So the days after our ceremony, like we have an integration circle and people are talking about

their experience and they're like describing just all these like out of this world stuff like a really common theme that happens is like you'll see yourself die or feel yourself die or like be at your own funeral and you'll also like see yourself as a baby. So people were talking about their really like wild like cosmic stories about like dying. And some of them were a bit gruesome and like a bit, like, traumatizing to hear. But that was their experience. So they were speaking to that. Some were beautiful.

Like everywhere in between, people were, like, seeing family members that they hadn't seen in a long time and, like, making amends or, like, family members that had passed away. They were able to, like, deliver messages to them and, like, hear messages from them. Like, very beautiful, like, very profound, like, very deep stuff. And all of my ceremonies were like, like I felt really good and I had this sense of the like the dissolution of the ego where you feel like connected to everybody. Like you feel as if like you are a part of this fabric that everyone's woven into. And that is like a really profound like beautiful experience.

But that was kind of like what all I was getting from that. Like I could tell that there was like, like this divine light and like power that lived in me that lives in everyone um i could intuit from that that like i do love myself and like life is really cool and like really precious but it wasn't like to me it was just kind of still like skimming the surface right so i feel like overall it was positive but i ultimately like walked away from ayahuasca like damn like i just did iowaska and when people ask how it was, I'm like, oh, yeah, like, it was nice. Like, that's it.

So I was like, okay, like, that, obviously, like, that had the potential to be a really powerful experience. And it's not to say that I didn't derive, like, powerful, positive things from it because I definitely did. But ultimately, I was still kind of, like, back at that place of, like, I just did something that, like, I was hoping was really, like, earth-shattering, life-changing, like, all this stuff. and I'm coming out of it just kind of like, eh, like whatever, you know?

Yeah, but you didn't feel any difference in healing from it or anything like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm still really glad I did it because I think ultimately, like my experience, like, it said so much about me and not so much like the medicine or like who I was with or like all that was, right? And like that was my moment of kind of like, okay, like I have felt this feeling before. Like I have there was like another distinct moment in my life. I remember I had like or maybe a few like I had visited one of my friends was living in

Madrid. So I like went to visit her for like a few weeks like one April. And she was like busy at work. So I'm like by myself like popping around like doing whatever. And I don't remember where I was. I was in some park with a fountain that was like super gorgeous like quintessential like Spanish like water fountain experience. And I just remember being like so profoundly underwhelmed. And I was like, what?

Like I was mad almost because I was like, what is this? Like I'm in this beautiful place. I'm witnessing something beautiful. Like I'm in Europe, number one. Like what a blessing. Like not everyone can travel like that. Like I have a friend that I can stay with. Like that's amazing.

Like everything that I'm looking at, everything that I've experienced, like has not been bad. And here I am just kind of like, whatever. Okay, yeah, cool, I guess. So I know I had noticed that then. And then there was like another time I, I lived in Australia for a few years, which was like another like super amazing like cool experience. In hindsight, I'm like, was I running from my problems going there? Like I think a little bit or maybe a lot. Still really glad I did it, right? But I had like so many moments there where I'm like doing things that like objectively are like really iconic and like super cool. And like I knew that like this is like a once in a lifetime kind of thing and I'm experiencing it.

And I'm still like so severely underwhelmed that I'm like bored and over it and like writing it off. Right. And like if the context is continually changing and I'm the constant, to me that's my indicator that like, okay, like it's something with me. And not in like a judgy or like shameful way, but it's like there's, you know, like you should really be like drinking this in. And it should be like every, maybe not everything I want it to be, right? But like it, I should still be able to like tap into and like recognize, wow. Like I'm doing something I've always wanted to. Like I'm doing something really cool, really fun, really whatever. And that feeling just like wasn't there.

So after I-Wasca, um, had that feeling again. And I was like, damn, dude, okay. Like if I've noticed that as like a recurrent theme in myself, And I've just done this psychedelic that I would have hoped might have like shaken things loosen me enough to like realize that that something needs to be different about this then. Right. Like if I've tried all these things, um, or like I thought I was like trying things like to the best of my ability.

It's like, okay, if I'm trying and nothing's working, like I need to do something different and I need to like look deeper into myself of like, what am I actually feeling and like what am I actually thinking and like what am I trying to get out of all these experiences and also like in my day to day life? Like what am I doing that I could change to like help, you know, on my path of healing like help rectify things, right? So after the ayahuasca, that was like pretty eye opening. Not because of the ayahuasca, I'll say. Some might argue that ayahuasca like gave me this realization just depends on who you might ask. But I had the realization. separate from the ceremony. So I was like, okay, like, I need to figure something else out. And so

my initial, like, rabbit hole was like, okay, like, maybe I need to just try, like, different types of ceremonies. So I found a practitioner that does Bufo. And so Bufo is, it's the same active ingredient as ayahuasca. It's five MEOD&T. So it is same concept, like psychedelic, like you have a trip that's in the same way. But Bufo is the, it's like the dried secretions of something desert toad, right? So it's a toad secretion that gets dried and then you smoke it. And you like, it's a little scary because you literally like free base it like in what I'm pretty sure is a crock pipe.

But like that's how you take it. So that's like what you do. And are you doing it in the office? With a practitioner. Right. Yeah, yeah. So these aren't things that I would ever recommend doing by. yourself.

No, probably not. Yeah. No, don't do that. Like, finds, it's very important. Like, find someone reputable, someone that you trust. Like, I only see women. Like, if I... So they're basically monitoring you while you're doing this.

Exactly. Yeah. They're monitoring you. And they, like, you know, assuming it's not just someone random who like got their hands on whatever it is, like they have probably sat with the medicine themselves, like, dozens up to hundreds of times. Like, they're very experienced with it. So they're keeping an eye on you. Like they know what to do.

Like should shit hit the fan. They should also be screening you too. There's like a few things that are contraindicated for I know Bufo at least. Like if you have high blood pressure or if you have like hyper or hypomania. Like there's a couple things that because it affects your serotonin, a good practitioner will like walk through those questions with you and be able to tell you if it's like safe number one for you to take it. So yeah, don't do by yourself. have a practitioner, like do all that. Um, but so I found a Bufo practitioner. So I was like, okay, like I'll try this then. So Bufo, like you smoke it instead of drinking it like

ayahuasca, but it's the same active ingredient, but it's a lot stronger than ayahuasca. So it's a lot more concentrated. So you have a potentially like way more powerful trip, but it's a lot shorter. Like a Bufo journey is 30 to 60 minutes, generally closer to like the third. 30 minute mark. So ayahuasca is like six to eight hours, buffos like quicker. So I was like, okay, great. Like this is something that like will still put me in that headspace. And instead of it being like a five day retreat that I'm like signing up for, like I can just

make a day of it or even like a morning of it, right? Like you can be in and out within like two hours. And you should still like structure your day either before or after that in a way that make sense for like doing plant medicine. Like I don't recommend doing it and then being like, okay, great. Like I'm going to go back to the office now. You know? Like maybe there's people that have done that with success.

I don't know. But either way, like you're not tied up like at a retreat for days or like in a place for like hours, days on end. Right. So I was like, okay, great. Like maybe this will be kind of what happens, right? So went to go do Bufo and the first time I went, it was just me and my boyfriend and the woman who was serving. So like that, it was the same thing as ayahuasca.

Like I did it and I like I felt really good and like I had a positive experience. Like I just felt like all this light in me and like I felt so full of life and like alive and just like content to be there. And they were all like joking after the ceremony too. I guess I started like backstroking. like because as soon as you inhale, you inhale and hold it as long as you can before you exhale. In the middle of your like holding your inhale, things just start to look like a kaleidoscope. So it's like a very rapid onset. So once that starts happening, I just would close my eyes. And I don't remember what I was physically doing, but I guess I was like dancing.

You have like a little mat that you can like sit or lay on. So I was just kind of like doing one of these like all over the mat. I don't remember, but they said it like looked like a really nice time, right? And I was like, it felt nice. So I guess that's good. But like nothing really like significant came up for me. Like I know I was like crying at one point. Like just tears were like free flowing out of my eyes.

But it wasn't like I was crying for something or about something. It was just like. They were just coming out. It was like sweating kind of. Right. Like it was just happening. So it wasn't like I was attributing it to something deeper. like another whatever, right? So then same thing. Like after the Bufo ceremony, like I felt great doing it.

Like the rest of the day, you're still sort of like riding that high a little bit of, you know, whatever you experience. And I know like my boyfriend had his was actually life changing. Like he was like crying and had all these like realizations and like great things, like amazing. But we had like very opposite experiences. I was like, oh, okay. Like that was nice. And he's like, I have a different worldview now. Like so coming out of that, I was like, okay. Like, am I broken? Like, did these things not work on?

Yeah, right. I was like, what is it then? And, you know, I like did also consider too. I'm like, okay, maybe like I largely like was investing all of my thought into like it's something with me and less in the way of like I'm defective and more just like there's something deeper that like I'm having trouble accessing, right? But certainly that also was a part of it because I was like, damn, dude. Like, you know, although like, you know, no one wants to have like a scary trip, but like when

you are able to go to those like deep, dark, fucked up corners of your brain, there is a lot of benefit that you can get out of that. And I also have heard the phrase many times that the medicine will only show you like what you're ready to handle. Right. So like if you do, and I think people say that in a way of like comfort, like if you do experience something like deep dark and fucked up. It's like, well, you were ready for that.

Like, you were able to handle that. So then in my mind, I was like, if I'm only getting like the love and light, like fluffy bullshit, I'm not ready for what's deeper and darker and like underneath that. So a part of me was just like, what the fuck? Because like I also in between like all the plant medicine, whatever, like I'm in therapy. Like I'm still, you know, I'm like meditating. I'm doing yoga. not in the same way that I had been in the past in that really like restrictive controlling way,

but from a much more balanced place of like I'm doing these things because they make me feel good and because they're good for me, but not like if I don't follow this strict routine, like something bad's going to happen, right? Like I'm not healed and whatever, right? So I knew I was like approaching things with like a way better balanced mindset and then hearing that phrase of like, well, you're only shown like what you're ready to handle. I was like, I feel like I'm ready to handle some shit. Like, what? And I just wasn't getting that.

So do like a few more Bufo ceremonies and they all are pretty much the same. Like I have the same experience. I get told that I'm like backstroking and like doing all that. It feels really good. Like it was honestly like fun. And you know, I thought I don't think it's like necessarily a good or a bad thing. but it was getting frustrating because I was like, well, I'm doing these for healing. Like, I think that it's, you know, it's nice that I'm not having like a traumatizing experience.

But like I'm walking away from these DMT experiences the same way that I would walk away from like getting a couple cocktails at happy hour. Like, ooh, okay, silly. And then just kind of like keeping it moving. Like it didn't feel like there was anything deeper there. And the other thing I will say too is that like with psychedelics, there is a lot that a lot of like epiphanies and things that will continue to unfold like long after the ceremony ends. So you can experience a lot there, but also in like the weeks, months, however long after, you will still get things that like land for you differently or like epiphanies that come up or like reframing things and what have you. So I like, I knew I was like experiencing like some of that a little bit.

But I ultimately just felt like I was still like I was in my own way on some internal level. Like there is a part of me. I wanted to say was, but like there is a part of me that is in there that's like, no, like we're not doing this. Like not right now. And I don't entirely have clarity yet on like what that part is. And I don't know if I'll ever have full clarity. I don't know if I need full clarity. But I think that like me then after like the Bufo experience is taking that step back and being like,

okay, like there's something deeper. There's a part of me that is really resisting this. I want to hear what that part is, like what it has to say. Like how old is it? did it come from, like all that sort of thing, um, you know, to like illuminate to me what's going on. And then we'll see what we can do, right? So in therapy, that had started to kind of be like an objective of mine of like, okay, well, like, I'm seeing all these ways that I'm resistant. And I don't know how to work with it. Like I, I don't want to like, you know, bypass it and just like go over it.

I don't want to like go around it. I want to like go through it and the door is locked. I don't know how to open it kind of thing, right? So in therapy, I do a combination of like individual and group therapy. And I do somatic therapy, which is like it's the belief camp that like emotions and trauma live in your body. And so like muscular tension and things like that, like there can be a lot of information in those of previous experience, whether it's like a traumatic event or just like an emotion or some

sort of like pattern because as your nervous system is developing, like if you grew up in a really chaotic home environment, maybe you like jumped and like tensed a lot, right? So you are training that pattern of muscular contracture in your body that eventually just comes part of your behavior. And then you get areas of stuck holding from that chronic like tense. scene from your childhood and it's not until or you know whenever that event or thing happened to you. So then when you're like in adulthood and you're wondering like where do these reactions and behaviors and feelings come from, it traces it back to the root and it gets into the body to see how you can like help eradicate like some of that out of you. Right. So doing somatic therapy, a combination of like

individual and group work and like in the group work I continued to get this feedback and I still get this feedback. Like I had group last night and they still were like, oh, like it seems like you're holding back a little bit. I don't know. Um, which I'm like, like, that's just a testament to like how hard it is to like deconstruct and like work with these defense mechanisms that like live within all of us, right? Because it's like for years, I feel like we've built in our subconscious, like this is how we react. And this is how we feel. And it's not going to take just like one or even a few times to reverse years and years of what we've built up. It's a pain in the ass. 100%. It's a pain in the ass. 100%. It's. It's a. It's. It's. It's. It's. It. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's It is a pain in the ass, an absolute pain in the ass. And yeah, exactly that. Like, if you have gone your whole life, like acting, thinking, believing and reacting a certain way, then a one and done fix is just not going to happen. It's a you have to rewire everything. Exactly.

And all of those, like, reactions, you develop them to keep you safe at one point, right? And whether, you know, in our adult brains, like whether there was like an actual imminent threat of danger or something else. When you are developing in your child, you don't know that. Like, so something as simple as like maybe your mom says a mean comment to you, adult brain would be like, okay, well, mom's stressed and like works full time and X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah. But to child brain, it's like, oh, okay, well, like maybe mom doesn't love me, right?

Like, that's how that's internalized. And so those defense mechanisms form around that childlike belief of like, okay, well, like, this person doesn't love me. or I'm not safe or whatever. So it's rooted in this very like primal, you could say like irrational, but ultimately like a survivalist place of like, this is the landscape I'm seeing. So this is what I need to do to not die.

And it's really hard to get yourself into that place, especially again when you're coming at it with adult brain because you're like, no, but like, yeah, this person might have done this thing. But like you list 20 other things that are good about them. But it's like, okay, yeah, like that's you as an adult. thinking about that. You as a child didn't have that same point of view or like perspective or ability to like understand. So you have to like get back to that child place to, you know, work with it, see what it is, befriend it and figure out how you can get it on your side now.

You know, like think it for its work. You've kept me safe. But like we are safe now. So like, you know, we can put the guns down. So to speak. Right. So in individual and group work, trying to like get back to that child place of like or I like eventually intuited that it was like a childhood place. But I was like, I know I have these defenses and I know that they're there. And they would especially show up in group work. And in group work you like you come to and you have an intention or something that you want to work on. And it could be something like I am going through a particularly hard time right now. Or it could be like I have anxiety and I want to just kind of like work on. managing that, right? So it's kind of a mixed bag. It's like whatever you want. You can also like

celebrate wins in group. Like last night I was excited that I was coming on the podcast. So I like had a little process about just like being excited but also like grounding some of that energy. So that like showing up today I wouldn't be, you know, have that excitement, you know, be like palpable and like in the room and like crazy. So in group trying to like work on stuff when you when you want to work that night, not everyone gets a chance to just for like timing. So if you want to work, you go up in front of the group and you like do whatever your process is. And it's something physical because we're like working with the body. And then you can get feedback after.

And the feedback can be like I felt like that was really powerful for you or it can be like the feedback that I get a lot, which is like it feels like you're holding back. Like it feels like there's something more there that like you are having trouble accessing, right? And the feedback is never meant as like a criticism of like, you didn't perform the way that we wanted to. It's just like we're getting a sense that something else is maybe going on or like this is something deeper, but you're saying it's not a big deal. Because again, like my default is to go to like, yeah, like I had this really horrible

experience, but like I'm fine. So it's fine, you know? And depending on what you're talking about, like, you know, there's just certain life experiences where it's like, okay, no, like that would have been really scary or that would have been really like troubling or whatever. Like it's okay to talk about it. Uh, but my defense mechanisms are so strong, stronger in the past for sure that like to even like let myself feel those feelings that people are saying like, I'm sure that

it's there. I just like was so unattuned and like unaware of it. So hearing that feedback continually from group while I also am like feeling not nothing in the sense of like numbness. right? But I'm feeling nothing in the sense of like I yeah, like that that is a traumatizing story. I can't feel anything related to that. Like I don't feel it. So that was like another clue to me. And then linking that back with like the plant medicine ceremonies of like that's kind of how I felt in those ceremonies. Like it wasn't like a numbness like nothing. But it was like yeah,

like there it should be something deeper or I like hesitate to. just say the word should because it, you know, it can be whatever it is and whatever you want it to be. But I knew there was something deeper that I knew wanted to come out and I could sense all the blockages between me and myself, basically. So as I'm like unpacking that and at first, it was like very frustrating for me because my like a knee jerk reaction in group was that all I heard was people being like, well, you're not crying. hard enough. You're not performing for us. That's how I heard it. It's not at all what they meant. But initially it like really pissed me off because I was like, I'm fucking trying. And like,

especially too, having done like years of therapy before and like doing all these plant medicines, whatever, I'm like, oh my God. Like to me, it is so apparent that I am like, I am trying. I'm not seeing results. And so now I have people telling me like, yeah, like we also aren't seeing salts and we don't like that. So for a while it was like, it felt very personal and very like, I'm defective. Like I can't get to that place. Like I'm broken. Whatever's going on in me is like irreparably damaged, right? Um, which is absolutely not true. But that's how it like kind of starts to feel. It's like, yeah, there should be more under the surface. It's not there. I don't think. I don't know. Like so just kind of like the cycle of like self doubt and like self deprecation that I could

sense starting to like spawn in myself from that. I also took that as an opportunity of like, okay, I'm recognizing that now I am feeling a little bit like internally destructive. I'm like going back to that place that I've gone to after a breakup of like, okay, well like the relationship ended and they like blamed it on me. So it must be. be me. So I need to like change my life and, you know, be really like tight and like controls and like all that and like that'll fix it. But I had the moment of clarity that was like, okay, no, like you've done that before. And all you've done is like perpetuated a cycle that has led you to the place that we're like in right now. Right. So if that worked, it would have worked.

It didn't work. We need to think it's something different. So okay. I'm like, what is different? And again, still in the mindset of like, I don't want to go down the pharmaceutical. route, like not because it's anything against it, but I was like, I just feel like I want to try something different that feels more in alignment with me, right? Because if like psychiatric medication felt in alignment, I would totally do that. But it just never has for like whatever the reason, right? So thinking about what things I can do differently, like I realize that ketamine might be an option, right? And so it's like very trendy right now. Like I see it everywhere. A ton of people are talking about it. And like ketamine, like as a drug, I know it's like been

around forever. But I had never done like street ketamine. Like I've never done ketamine just like for fun. So I have no experiences with it. Right. And in my mind that like resonated as a really good thing of like, okay, great. Like this is something that like I can 100% like form a around like for the purpose of healing. Kind of like Ayahuasca. And how did you hear about it? Um, so I had heard about it just like, I know like on social media or like I, um, I have friends that were interested in it.

And I like, I have friends that were interested in it. And I had talked to some of them before. And, you know, I've always known or as long as I can like recall like I've known what ketamine is. So what is it supposed to do? Exactly. So in a clinical application, ketamine is used. It's FDA approved for pain management, but it's used off label for the treatment of

treatment resistant depression most of the time. Or it can be used for PTSD, anxiety, any other sort of like emotional dysregulation that you feel like you might be experiencing. So those are all technically like. off-label uses, but they're still prescribed by a position and there's different ways that you can consume it too. So how I take it is doing ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. So I get a prescription from a doctor and I get lozenges and this little like nasal spray stuff. So I take that and then I go into a psychotherapy session where the first like 45 minutes hour,

you're just kind of like debriefing and like talking in general. And again, it's like the intention of like, what do you want to get out of this? Like what are you showing up with today? Like, do you have a goal? What is it? That sort of thing. And once you've started to have multiple sessions, that initial kind of like hour, you can also talk about anything that's come up for you or changed maybe in between your

sessions, right? So then you will take your ketamine and you take it yourself. So the... But you're only taking it when you're about to have a therapy type of session? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're not doing this like every day. No, no, no, no. So you're doing it like this you do like in office with someone overseeing you.

But so the person that you're with is a psychotherapist, not a doctor. So you have to like take it yourself. So she couldn't like put the lozange in my mouth or anything like that, right? So you're taking it and then you have a journey. is like what they call it. So you have your journey and then that's like anywhere from like 45 minutes to like maybe an hour and a half ish. And then as you're going through the journey and then for like the hour or so that you're

coming out of it, that's when you, anything that you say, the therapist is there just like taking notes and they can also ask like clarifying questions. So depending on what you want as well, because there's some. some people that are like, I don't want any talking. Like, I just want whatever I say to just kind of come organically and like whatever. Or they can like ask you stuff or they can do body work if they are trained to do that, which would be something maybe like Reiki or like potentially like some sort of like massage or something.

And this would all be done like with your consent as well. Either prior to the session or maybe during like they could ask you if you're in a state of mind that you can answer, right? because like ketamine at its core is an anesthetic. So there is a really, really heavy quality of just kind of feeling like half asleep and like drowsy and like you feel really heavy like in your body. So that's the other reason I think it's important to have someone there is like if you need to go to the bathroom, like to do that on your own would be nearly impossible just because

you are so like anesthetized and heavy. Like you could like crawl your way there. but it would just be easier to have someone who's like in a sober state of mind, like help you. It can also make you nauseous and considering that you can't really like move as effectively, like if you were to throw up, like you would want someone there to, and they have little like airplane bags for it and whatnot because you wouldn't want to exfixiate or like puke on yourself or something. Right.

Right. So yeah, the way that I do it is in office like that. And they also have options if you get it like, like, in. intravenously, you would do that like at a ketamine infusion clinic. That is usually, they give you a way higher dose for that. And I think in clinic application, I'm not sure if it's only for like specific ailments or if it again is like open to like I said, I know for my therapy. I wouldn't necessarily have described my depression as treatment resistant, but I still qualified for it. Right. So for the intravenous, I just, I'm not entirely sure. But for that, you go into.

an office, you get the IV, you're there for however long, and then you go home. There isn't any sort of like therapy session or like integration, like worked into it. Like you're tasked with doing that on your own. And there are also, I know there's companies that do at home ketamine where they, you still get a prescription from an MD and they mail you like a little kit that'll have like an eye mask in it. And because you want to wear an eye mask, it makes you super sensitive to light. Like even in a dark room with a little lamp on. coming out of a journey, you're like squinty and like it feels like staring into the sun. So like you get a little eye mask and you get your medicine and like a protocol to do it.

So that would be like at home. And again, like the follow up of that, you're tasked with doing that yourself. So like they recommend that you have a therapy session like the next day and then you do some sort of integration. But you're kind of left on your own to do it. So for me, it just made the most sense and I was the most comfortable like do. doing it in an office where like I would have oversight and like someone on the spot. Like if I'm rambling, like if something really beneficial came out of it and I don't

necessarily remember like what I said or felt if I'm like saying it out loud, at least like there's going to be notes of it somewhere to like revisit at some point. Right. So I had heard about it. And a woman who is in my like group therapy, she had started doing it. And she and I had described like a lot of the same things with ourselves. just kind of having these like really strong defense mechanisms that like block us from feeling our feelings like to their fullest capacity, right?

Like we know we have the feelings, but there's a barrier somehow between us and them. So she had said that like doing the ketamine, um, really helped her. And so she had told me the place that she goes to, it's in Alexandria, Virginia, Delray Psych and Wellness. They're amazing. So I was like, okay, great. Like I want to look into this. And I feel like it'd be a good fit for me.

And I was still kind of like in that phase of like, I know I want to try it. I'm interested. It sounds good. But I was just still like waiting a little bit to see because from my perspective, I was like, okay, well, I've done like ayahuasca and Bufo this year. And even though it was a good experience, I don't know if I really healed from it. So endeavoring into like one more psychedelic, I was like, I don't want to be like doing too much and trying to like, again, like find control in this scenario and just like loading myself up with all these psychedelics. If I'm also like, I don't know if it really did anything.

Like there's benefit, but I don't know. So I was still like treading with caution like in that way, right? Because I just didn't want it to turn into me like that being another distraction of like I'm just going to go. like do ketamine about it and it not actually like making any progress on the things that I wanted to work on, right? Um, and like at this point too, I like I've been fully sober for over a year now. So that's really awesome. So this like before I was starting to do like the ketamine and everything, um, I was like, okay, well like we're on this like sobriety path. Like, uh, not that I feel like plant medicines in their proper application are like not sober.

But I can see how, like that it could turn into that, like for me, right? And again, like that control or that like distraction from what's actually going on of like just putting the band-aid on it of like, I'm just going to do some ketamine and like figure it out or like Iowasca or like whatever, right? So I was going back and forth like considering it, but still, you know, just kind of waiting for maybe the right time. And so I, as I'm in the middle of this, this is like the first week of October, right? So I go with my boyfriend, we go to Denver.

And I had this experience in Denver that like I was, he was off like doing a work thing. So I was by myself and I was going to go to the Denver ballet to go see Swan Lake. So I'm like walking through Denver and I was just going to go get like a tea or something before. And I'm like walking down the street and this guy starts following me. And he asked me a question that was like really silly. So I just kind of ignored it. And I keep walking. he was going the opposite way.

At some point, he, like, turns around and catches up to me. I'm, like, standing at a stop light. And now he's next to me. And he's, like, walking with me, keeping pace. And he's, like, asking, like, where am I staying? Like, who am I here with? Like, can I give him my number? Like, can I meet him for a drink?

And every time he was asking a question, I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And at one point, he started, like, getting kind of, like, mad about it. And I sensed that he was getting angry. and I'm like, okay, like I'm by myself. I'm alone in the streets. Like, I got to get away from this guy. So I just like bolted left and like ran into the first thing that was there, which was like some random dispensary. And I like go in and I just realize I'm like shaking uncontrollably. Like my vision is blurry. And I'm like, oh my God. Like I am about to like have a panic attack or something. So I know that I'm freaking out. I like go back to the car. I'm like sitting in the car and

I'm just like trying to like calm down. And then this memory. hits me and it was this memory from I that same like a Madrid trip that I talked about I like went to Paris a little bit by myself right and on this trip I was walking from a hostile bar that I was at back to like where I was staying and as I was walking down the street this like white car pulls up next to me and out of it jumped like five huge guys it was a tiny car too so at first it was kind of like comical. Like I was watching it unfold and I like froze a little because I'm like what's about to happen? But it's like tiny like the little European cars that like I'm sure you've seen five like huge dudes like six five jump out. So I'm like what's about to happen?

So totally by myself. There's nobody on the street. They like circle around me and I'm like back against a wall and they all had guns and they start like saying. I don't know what they're saying because they're speaking French and I was also getting very stressed. So they start saying something to each other, but they have like closed it on me. I'm like against the wall. And all I remember was just like holding my hands up and just like screaming, like don't fucking touch me, like just yelling, whatever. And I don't know if this is relevant, but I know I had my phone, like Google Maps was open and I had my phone in my hand so that they could see the screen. And I just remember one guy looked at the screen, like looked at all them, said something. They got back in the car and then

they just drove away. And that was that experience. And I, when it happened, I was like, That was weird. Like, okay, random. Kept it moving. And so then I had this experience in Denver and it like immediately like took me back to that place in Paris where I was like, okay, that was a PTSD flashback. That's traumatic as fuck. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes.

And like any time that I had told that story before, which I had only told like a couple people, I would tell it. And I know I'm like saying it in that tone like now too of like, oh my God, yeah. Like is that crazy? And the look I would get from people was like, what the fuck? So that, again, it's just like a big testament to me of like the feelings that I have had to keep from myself to like keep me from losing my mind. Right.

And that I know was one of them. So like that as an experience, I was like, okay, wow. Like I just had a PTSD flashback. Like holy shit. Like, okay, yeah. Like looking back on other moments in my life that like I had known objectively like I could look at it through that lens of like, yeah, that was like a potentially traumatic event, but you feel fine.

So I guess it's okay, you know, like just being so disconnected from the feeling that I was like just kind of glazed over it and like kept it moving, right? So that was like a really big like, you know, flashing neon sign in my face of like, you are just not able to feel your feelings. And I hadn't really like necessarily thought about it with that clarity until that moment of having a flashback and like feeling. all of the physical effects of it that I like, you know, I've read about in literature and I've like had friends who have had PTSD, they've described it.

So I'm familiar with it enough to know what it is. And it wasn't until I felt it that I was like, oh, shit, okay. Like, wow, there's a lot there. And so then in that same trip, we were in Denver and then we were in Miami. So we go to Miami and we stay at this place that we normally really like and had a experience and I got a massage and it ended up just being like it was a really inappropriate massage, right? It was a male massage therapist and it was like one of those things where while it was happening, I was like, no, okay, like I think I'm just being sensitive because like the Denver

thing just happened like whatever. And it wasn't until like after like debriefing my boyfriend about what happened that he was like, no, like that was actually really violating. And then that was like another like waterfall of emotion of like thinking back on all these other experiences in my life like with men or like having to do with like bodily autonomy where that wasn't like respected or it was violated or like what have you all the ways that I was like oh well like I probably just took it personally or like oh well like I was feeling weird that day so like I'm just being sensitive like that's what it is instead of looking at it through the lens of like no like you were violated, you were wronged. And however you feel in the aftermath of that is okay. Like,

it's okay to be pissed. It's okay to be devastated. It's okay to feel like anything in between and like have a big reaction about it instead of just like, I'm just going to like take this on the nose and keep it moving because that's what I've always done. So then having that experience in Miami, having like that other like flood of emotion. And then, those two things happening, like in such rapid secession was to me, that was like I actually understood in that moment, like what it means to be called to something. Because everything that I had known about ketamine, it helps to rewire neural pathways. It's like when you're on ketamine, your brain is kind of like soft butter in a warm pan, right? So it effectively does that to you. So

then again, like in the integration phase is when you can take all the things that you learn from your ketamine journey and apply it and like restructure your life so that while your brain is in this malleable state, all of those like new neural networks that you're able to form or strengthen, you have the opportunity to like put in place a practice, a routine that is conducive to that, right? So I knew all that. So I was like, okay, great. Like if these two experiences, like in rapid secession have taught me anything. It's that this feels like a good idea. Like, okay. Like I hadn't done it yet at this point. No, I hadn't done it yet at that point. This was all in the lead up. So this was when I was kind of like on the fence about it. Like I knew I was

interested. But again, like the timing and whatnot. So that's when I was like, okay. Like, I'm ready. Like I want to look into this because like clearly there's something like really deep going on inside of me and like the thought of being able to like change like brain circuitry, it just felt like really in alignment and really right. And being able to do it like with a practitioner, like I can do it again like in office, you know, like it's not going to be like a five day retreat or anything like that. I just all sounded really appealing. So I was like, great.

Like I'm going to go for it. So I, you know, go to Delvry Psych and Wellness. this. I like do my consultation, my like intake, like all that. So I'm like ready to do my first ketamine session. So I like go in the day of the session and each session is structured like this where you have that like time at the beginning to talk and then your journey and then the time after. And so we'll also do, we'll like pull an Oracle card, which is just like a fun little thing to, you know, just like keep in mind for like maybe further guidance or just, yeah, like a different perspective almost like before you do that.

So and might have always been like really poignant too. Like whatever the thing is that I'm talking about. Like if it's a realization or like a goal, like always pull a card that like is in line with that, which is really cool. And whether or not that's the cards like telling me something or if that's me just like extrapolating the meaning that I want out of it, whatever. Like it feels good and it's like a fun thing. So we do that and then we'll do like a relaxation exercise of some sort and then like get

into it. So my very first ketamine session, it just like, it was so just like gentle, but powerful, right? In a way that other psychedelics weren't. Like nothing about the other journeys felt gentle at all, even though it was all like surface level for me, I think. Um, it still is like being catapulted into this experience and taking ketamine is kind of like gently, like, drifting into like this half sleep kind of state. And so your journeys can be a little all over the place. Like my first few journeys were very like visual. Like it literally felt like I was having a dream, but I was awake. And then some of the like latter ones have been very body based. Like I haven't had any visuals or like seeing anything. But I have like felt and been able to visualize like

things moving through my body. So I can. like see and feel like stuck tension, like loosening and kind of like spreading and like eradicating itself. But in the beginning, it was like very visual. And my visuals on other psychedelics were just kind of like white light. And like I might see like little glimpses of like my family or like whatever, but just kind of for a second. And it was by and large just like I could see light. Right. But with this, it was like I felt like I was walking through very specific life experiences. And the one thing that I continually like see is I see myself when I am somewhere between the ages of like four and six years old, right? And that little me is like always

trying to tell me something. And I'm not like entirely sure yet. Like what exactly was like happening during that age that would be the place that I'm being called to return to. Because I mean, there's like so much you don't remember from that age, you know. And like when I ask my parents, they like my family also kind of does that thing where it's like, oh, well, that was like a traumatizing memory. So maybe we just won't like bring that back up. So I haven't quite gotten like full clarity on that. But I saw me at like four or five years old. And she just was asking me like what happened? Like what happened? And I had to tell her, I don't know. like I don't know what happened. So on that first journey, like she takes my hand and she like led me

through my whole like childhood house. Like she took me to like this ski resort that I know that like my family had visited at one point when I was around that age. Um, and like walked me like to all the members of my family just kind of like walking through stuff. Right. And like when like a memory came up for me about the ski resort in the ceremony of like, I had forgotten this or like it just got clouded because it was probably really traumatic. But when I was at that ski resort, I fell out of a ski lift and I was okay somehow, but I was in there with an instructor and he jumped out after me and like broke both of his legs like on impact. So like that would have happened right in front of me. Like I witnessed that, which like would still be really jarring as an adult.

but as like a five-year-old, I can only imagine, like, how that would have felt. And then the rest of the trip, I, like, pretended. I, like, colored my hands red, like, I had frostbite because I think I was, like, too scared to, like, go back outside. So I, like, put red marker, like, everywhere. And I was like, no, like, I had frostbite. Like, I can't go. And it's because I was afraid.

And, like, that fear is something that I had, like, never been able to tap into. And having just even that first ketamine session and, like, seeing that fear, that had been there since I was that age that had, like, lived in me and was just kind of like festering, like, behind the scenes. I saw how that had driven, like, a lot of my behavior and a lot of that, like, desire to control things because, like, if I had been able to control that scenario, then that guy wouldn't have jumped out of the ski lift and he wouldn't have broken his legs. Like, if I had controlled myself better, which, you know, like in adult brain, of course, it's like, well, you were five and you're probably just being goofy and like wiggled and like whatever.

But how I internalized it at the time was like I need to like tighten up myself because if I don't, people around me suffer. And like even just realizing that was like a lesson that I had downloaded was so huge, so so huge. And it being delivered like so gently in the way that like ketamine did was like so profound. And so in all of my like subsequent journeys with that, in between, you'll start to notice synchronicities. And whether that is, you know, you feel like that's the universe like delivering a divine message to you or if maybe like because you are having all of these like realizations about yourself, you might just be more like in tune to what's happening around you.

Like you might just naturally be paying more attention to, you know, your environment. and therefore you're going to derive more like signs and symbols from it. Like either or maybe, right? But I started noticing like so many synchronicities. Like if, um, like if I had seen something during treatment that I like didn't really have the ability to make sense of, I would see that like corroborated in real life. Like I started seeing frogs everywhere and I didn't really know what that meant. And I know that I had like seen a frog at one point like during a journey.

and it turns out like the frogs that I saw in my journey, those were like these cartoon cutouts that were all over this ski resort that we were staying at, right? So like I'm just randomly seeing that like out in the ether. Like I drove to New York with one of my friends. And like we saw frogs all along the way. It was like super random stuff like that that like, you know, I don't know. Like I don't know what the explanation for it would be. And I don't know if it even needs one.

But you start seeing like all these parallels or like questions that you had about yourself. You're like starting to see real life examples of like maybe your behavior or like people patterns in your life that are like funneling into that. Right. So I like going into that I was like really aware that I like was not feeling my feelings. And like coming out of the first few sessions, I realized like, oh my God, like I have been so fucking scared of like I don't know. everything, like my whole life. And I've always been able to like mask that really well. Like, and I think like with masking like that, it's a testament to like how deeply you feel things.

Like I think if you had asked anybody in my life, like, does she seem afraid? Like they would have never. Right. It would have been no, right? Because like I always present as like, like I'm talkative and like I can speak confidently. Yeah. Like and I like I've always been a dancer. Like I did cheerleading. like all these things that like if you see someone like that, you know, your immediate first thought isn't like they're probably struggling, you know, but that was just like how good I was. And I mean, like still am at like not letting that facade slip. So starting to get like a full scope of like, oh shit, like this has actually been running my life behind the scenes.

And like all these little ways that I like didn't realize were control. for me trying to control my environment to keep that from happening, but also to like try and manage other people around me because I don't want anybody getting upset because someone getting upset and yelling at me. Like that's really scary. Like there's a lot of childhood experiences with that. Or like I don't want something bad to happen to them because that's also really scary. Again, like if I'm not in control, then bad things are going to happen either to the people

around me or to me and I can't face whatever that is. And being able to see that in like a very like aerial view like removed, you know, like has been so immensely helpful, so immensely helpful in a way that like I, I just haven't experienced it before. Like it's been super profound and like super incredible. And I know even with that, there's still like so much more like healing that I know that like I want to do. And the part of me that like is a perfectionist and like once control, wants to like go in and like do like 40 ketamine sessions like next week and like we're going to knock this shit out. But like, you know, realistically like that's just not how things work. Like so also kind of giving myself the grace and like the forgiveness of like, okay, like we're going to do

this slowly in a way that makes sense because doing things in the really like catacalismic, like confronting way like ayahuasca like didn't give me the results that I wanted. So learning to like take that step back and have like the really gentle approach with it has been like so life changing and like also allowed me the grace. to like take what I learn in ceremony and integrate it. And like through that too and also like having those like life experiences, kind of like Denver and Miami that I had talked about. And then all of the like coincidences and like synchronicities that will happen like in

between. I am starting to like also catch my behavior like before I engage in it. Like if I start to hear that little voice, which like the voice is still there. And like, you know, I would love to be able to fully eradicate it. But I also am in a place of acceptance of like, I need to learn to work with it or I am like learning to work with it. Um, because it's not in control of me, you know? And like me controlling something else isn't going to like make that not have control of me. You know what I mean?

So learning to like work with that voice. And so even now like if that voice kind of comes up, it's like so much simpler. feel so much more, like, confident to just be able to be like, okay, like, thank you for letting me know, like, thank you for keeping me safe, like, at one point in my life. But, like, I do want to be here. Like, I get to be here. I need to be here. Like, you telling me whatever isn't conducive to living a life. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, that's a place that, like, it just, it feels so crazy to be. be in because like when you've gone your whole life like dealing with something and also like

dealing with it in so many ways that I like dealing with it so deeply I didn't even realize I was dealing with it. You know what I mean? Like it was just this is just me and I guess I have to figure it out. But addressing it from the standpoint of like this is like you've been dealing with this probably since you were like four. Maybe before that. I don't know because like memories like really unclear and like early early childhood. But like yeah, it's going to take. like years to find a good like ebb and flow to work with it or like years still to maybe get rid of it like entirely. So yeah, it's it's been revolutionary. It's been life changing. It's been incredible. And it's brought me like perspective and healing that I didn't think that or I had

like lost a little bit of hope that I was going to get to. So. And how often do you do? these ketamine experiences. So I am, for me, I did them once a week in like rapid succession for the first like five sessions I want to say. And then I have three more sessions that are up to me when I want to schedule. So we've been allowing more time in between my last one and like when the next one will be. So I think probably sometime like in January is when I'll do my net.

And then I might do the other ones like all like a month apart, I think. Because you're generally prescribed a course of like eight sessions. And if you're coming in someone who has like really severe treatment resistant depression, they might do two sessions a week for like four weeks straight. But if you're coming in with something that is a little less, less on like the severity scale, right, of how it's afflicting you, then you can space them out. that's something that like you and the psychotherapist can kind of like work together to determine like because also too like the timing of it like you can do stuff like after and if you do

it in the afternoon you can do stuff before but like you have to fast before so if you you know depending on what you're doing like that doesn't always work and like after like you can't drive for four hours so if you have to like take yourself places and do things like there's a degree of planning that goes into that and also like the cost it is. I think pretty cost prohibitive for most people. Like a session is like $600. Insurance, like depending on your insurance can cover some of it, part of it, maybe all of it.

And there's like the cost of like the prescription and like going to see the doctor, like all that. So the spacing out of your sessions is really, it's personal like for what works for you. And also again, like are you walking into that office? like I need help like write this moment or do you feel like you have the flexibility to kind of like dive into it? Yeah, yeah. Like make more of like a like a long term plan.

So that's like what I'm doing with mine. And you have the option too to do like a booster session. Like so if I finish out like my eight sessions and like in six months I'm like I kind of want to just go in for like a refresher. Like people totally do that too. Like they might come back like. every few months or like once a year or something just to kind of like dip their toes back in. Because even if like no matter what happens like during your experience, whether you have like a really

trippy like visual or like body heavy experience, it is still having that same effect on your brain and you are still gifted that window of neuroplasticity after. So even if you're just doing like what I'll say is a microdose of ketamine, you're still going to be getting those mental health benefits, assuming you're doing the follow through with like integrating and like applying what you know and what you learned in the integration like to your life. So I'll definitely like be doing that. I don't know like what that timing would look like for me if I would want to do it like in a year or what have you. And I think that'll just kind of depend on like maybe how I'm feeling like a few months out. Yeah. I think I think it's so interesting because I feel like

these kind of treatments per se aren't I mean they might be talked about or people might look at them as like oh that sounds so cool but yeah I don't think it's taken very seriously of like this could actually be another alternative that could help you yeah and I think it's so interesting that you had so many different experiences with different things like Ayalaska and then what was the other one boofo boofo boofo got okay that and now the ketamine and And I think it's so intriguing how, you know, like you said, one might work well for somebody and they might have this breakthrough or it might take something else to do the trick or maybe a mix of everything. But I think, and not everything at once. Yeah. But never again. But no, I think it's so interesting.

And I definitely do think more people should try these different routes of alternatives and options, obviously, with the right and proper, you know, care and people looking after you in the right dosage, but not just for fun. Yeah, definitely not that. Yeah, no, I just think that that's so intriguing and it's always been something that I wanted to hear more about and learn about because I do think it can be hard. You know, I think everybody is kind of taught or told that, you know, like go to therapy, go to therapy.

And that doesn't work for everybody. You know, talking to somebody isn't always going to give you that breakthrough. It isn't always going to be the right healing journey for you. Sometimes medicine might help. Sometimes it might not. So I think that having these different alternatives and different options to at least try is amazing and incredible. And I think that as humans, it's easiest to block things out. And it's easiest to just cover up these traumas and be like, oh, it's fine.

And, you know, like with the Paris thing, for example, you survived it. So technically you were fine. Yeah. And what you could look at it as like, well, I wasn't hurt. They didn't do anything to me. So like what's the trauma there? But that is trauma because you basically, in moments like that, we see our life basically flash before our eyes.

Like you could easily have been kidnapped or killed or any of the most horrible things. And you don't want to think that way. But in that moment, your brain probably was like going on full speed thinking like, oh my God, am I going to be okay? Am I going to survive this? So, yeah, I don't think we even realize that it affects things have it. It could be the smallest things that we think didn't have an effect, but it did. Yeah.

So I think it's incredible that different options like this and different treatment methods can really help us kind of break down and break through these incidents that have like happened in our lives and be like, okay, this might be the reason why I react this way in situations or why I try to cover up that I actually am hurt, but I'm acting like I'm fine. But I think it's incredible. And I give you credit for not being scared because I would be, I would definitely be skeptical of trying different things just because I know like back in the day when I would try to smoke weed or have like a bite of an edible. I would get like the worst reactions.

So I'm like so scared of anything, you know, like a drug related. Just because I get nervous about it. But I feel like under the care of somebody like watching me and monitoring, I would feel much more confident in that and know that I was safe. And obviously it's something that's tested and all of that stuff. But props to you. Seriously, that's incredible. And I think that obviously this is something, like you've found something that's

starting to work for you better than anything else has. And I think it's so important about finding the root of a lot of the reasons why we act and feel the ways we do. Because if not, it's going to be this constant cycle of, okay, some days I feel good, some days I don't, some days I react this way and I don't know why. Or like, why am I shutting down or why am I scared or whatever it may? Or why am I not happy? You know what I mean?

We don't know until we kind of really dive deep and kind of like what I was saying before is I think it's easier not to dive deep because it takes so much time. Yeah. It isn't a one-time thing, whether you do therapy or whether you try different alternative options. Like, it's a process no matter what. So it's going to take time and it's going to take scheduling and really wanting to work on your soul.

You have to want it. You know what I mean? If you don't want it, like you said, like I don't think you're really going to be able to dive deep and get to the bottom of things. Yeah. So. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Yeah, and it's painful too, right? Nobody wants to relive anything bad that happened. Exactly. Especially if like, you know, like how I was describing like the Paris thing. Yeah. Like there was a reason that I like wasn't able to feel that. And I had that same thought process after. I'm like, well, they didn't literally murder me so I'm fine.

Like nothing actually happened. So I'm fine. And being able to just recognize that as like, no, like that was actually so scary that that is the story that I had to tell myself to not like implode on the spot. Exactly. Like I knew like I still have however long left of this trip. Like I got to make it through. Like if I think about this too much like I am going to like scream and cry and like freak out. And you might not, it might have prevented you from running to travel again. Exactly. And nobody wants to be so scared that they're not living their life. Exactly. So I think that's a good like that's a good defense mechanism to have. But at the same time like, like, you know, like, not facing how we feel or allowing ourselves to feel isn't right either. Right. Yeah. But seriously, like I said before, you are such an incredible storyteller.

It was so intriguing. Thank you. Yes. No, I'm serious. And I've always, like I said, I've always wanted to hear someone's firsthand experience with all of these things. So it was so interesting to me. I don't know if I could do it.

I don't know if I could puke. And I think I would puke a million times. Yeah. And maybe see some fucking scary shit. But maybe one day if I was ready, I would try it. But no, I definitely think that things like this should definitely be talked about more and something that people look into and at least try. Yeah.

Because I feel like only having the options of like, oh, deal with it yourself or pop a pill or just talk to somebody. And nine times out of ten, at least my experience, you talk to somebody and you don't really hit it off with them. Yeah. doesn't really feel like, I feel like a lot of things in those moments, they'll feel like, oh, that was helpful. And then as a week goes by, you're back to square one of feeling how you've been feeling.

So I think that getting to, like I said, I can't say enough, getting to the root of the problem and really working through that is important. And I think, too, like you said, kind of like not being in denial, like, okay, like my brain works this way or I feel this way in life or in certain situations and kind of living with it and learning how to kind of cope with it and deal with it. but also heal and be on this healing journey is so important because you're not in denial anymore. You're breaking it down, but you're not in a rush because you can't be in a rush because it's not something that's going to change or happen overnight.

Unfortunately, that's amazing. But no, seriously, thank you so much for wanting to come on and share because it was so great and it was so insightful. And I hope that it teaches people things because I feel like it could be something that would really, even like your experience, because like you said, people hear good things and bad things. I feel like the way that you described your experiences, it could break that barrier down for people if they maybe have been thinking about it,

but they're scared. Or, you know, I think, like you said, people might hear ketamine and be like, I'm not touching that or, and look at it from only a straight drug perspective. So I think it's great.

Everything that you mentioned and the way that you described it, you killed it. You did such a good job. Oh my God. Thank you. Of course. How do you feel good? I feel good.

Yeah. That was like also so. positive everything you just said. Thank you. I feel like I'm just rambling. No, you did such a great job. Okay. If it makes sense then. It does. It made total sense. I think you crushed it. Was there any other things that you wanted to talk about or add in? Um, I don't think so. I will, I guess just like to your point, yeah, like shopping around for like mental health options. I'm like full supporter of that. I mean like my experience is a testament to it. Like if something feels like it's not working, don't be afraid to try something else.

Exactly. Even though that's easy to do because you're like, like you said, I mean, even the ayahuasca experience, you're hearing all these other people say things. And you're like, oh, I didn't that happen to me. Yeah. You know, so it's interesting. It's very interesting.

But I feel like in a way it's kind of, it happens for a reason because like you said, there's something that worked better for you. Yeah. And I think that for you, it seems like now with the ketamine that it approached things to you, in a more gentle way. It's almost like that's better for you to like sort through it and understand it rather

than all at once. And it just is, you know, it's different, but it's good. Different. But no, you did you did such a good job. Thank you. And thank you for wanting to come on here and share your story and your experiences. Oh my God. Yeah.

Thank you for listening and giving me a microphone. Yes, of course. And I hope that with time and more ketamine experiences that you figure out as much as possible, if not everything and sort through all that. But obviously, like, we all know our life is a constant healing journey. And things can always happen. More things might happen. That's down the road you might have to sort through.

But that's just part of life. Exactly. And it happens to all of us. But, no, I can relate to a lot of the things that you say. And I'm sure a lot of other people listening will too. And we all love to put up a wall and not deal with things and deal with our problems head on. That's so normal. But no, thank you so much.

She did incredible. I can't say it enough. Seriously, thank you. Thank you. Of course. Thank you.