We're All Insane - Raised by a Serial Child Rapist

Episode Date: August 10, 2025

https://jaspr.co CODE INSANE for $300 off Kelsey grew up with a father who abused her, her sister—and other children. For years, she was silent. Eventually, she found a way out at 13 years old but is still processing the violence a decade later. Kelsey's Links: Kelsey's website: https://kelseyzazanis.com/ Buy Kelsey's book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FBWTT2YD Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makingfriendsonline/ Substack: https://cancelme.substack.com/ 00:04:00 How do children view their parents? 00:05:33 What is BrainQuest trivia? 00:07:55 What do the eyes of someone going through abuse look like? 00:13:30 What do children think to do when there is abuse going on? 00:14:03 Why do children sometimes hide that bad things are happening to them? 00:16:42 Why do some children become afraid of men? 00:18:18 What are signs that a child is being abused? 00:32:47 How do pedophiles force children to do what they want? 00:34:38 How do kids view their parents? 00:40:05 What are some of the stigmas about sexual assault survivors? 00:50:36 How does understanding language help protect children? 00:52:48 What's it like when children hear a word for the first time? 00:55:57 What's it like not being believed about being abused when you're a child? 01:01:50 What does a spiritual experience feel like? 01:08:01 How does sexual abuse effect a child's brain? 01:09:06 What kind of physical effects can abuse have on a child? 01:14:49 Can children defend themselves when abused? 01:27:10 What is a classical narcissist like? 01:30:15 How does a child rationalize sexual assault? 01:32:12 How can kissing be considered assault? 01:47:27 Can you develop anorexia from trauma? 01:54:55 Can you get flashbacks from repressed memories? 02:13:39 Why do people wake up screaming? 02:17:02 How does trauma effect your relationships? Topics: Family Trauma, Child Trauma, Healing, Therapy If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me DeVora. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. Hi, my name's Kelsey Zazanis. I am a writer. I live in California. I'm 28 years. old, but I actually grew up about 30 minutes outside of here in Maryland, and I am a survivor of incest child rape. I was raised by a serial child rapist, and I'm also a survivor of child pornography. And today I'm going to be telling the story of my childhood being raised by a child rapist, and the aftermath of that, what surviving it looked like, and how it impacted me

through adulthood. So I'm going to be telling this story in chronological order of how the events all unfolded and it's going to span over a decade. So throughout that period, there were different name and gender changes. And unless I say otherwise, all of the names in the story are the accurate real names, but in terms of the name and gender changes, I'm going to speak the original names and genders up until the point where they are changed. Just for clarity in terms of like the meaning that comes across. So it is going to contain a lot of really graphic details most likely because I want to recount it in as much detail as my memory has. And I have a pretty vivid memory.

So there might be some graphic depictions of child rape and other sensitive topics. and I just want, like, anyone listening to listen at their own discretion. Yeah. Yeah. And just be prepared. But this is something I've been speaking about and writing about for a while now. Like, and so I'm very outspoken about it. But this is my first time telling the story from start to finish.

Like, I've, you know, I'll address pieces and bits and I'll write essays. But, like, I really wanted the opportunity to just. Get it all out. Get it all out in one place. So that's why this might be heavy. I'll try my best. But yeah. So like I said, my name is Kelsey Zazanis, but I was actually born Kelsey Owen.

O-E-N, it's like a Norwegian name. So I was born Kelsey Owen to my father. His name is William Lee Owen. And early on, my mother and father, they had my sister, who was a year and four months. older than me. Her name's Stephanie and then me. And we had like a pretty, I just remember my earliest memories as a toddler. Like I was really happy with my family and with her. Like she was like my best friend. My parents divorced when I was three. So that was kind of where everything got started. But back then I didn't, you know, you're three. So you don't really register. I just kind of

got in the routine of my father had visitation every Sunday. So my mother would like, and us kids, I guess by the time we were five, probably at least, we started going to Sunday school. And we were baptized Lutheran. So we, the church was kind of like a neutral like place for, you know, like divorce parents will find like some public place to do the, the drop off with the kids. So every Sunday from then on, my father would pick us up from the church and we would spend the day with him. And that was like the visitation split up. So you would just spend Sundays with him. So one day a week.

So he got Sundays initially. Later on, it changed into like weekend long. Got it. But initially it was every Sunday. And, you know, like when you're a child, your parents are your world. And they're also really all you know. So like you don't have any, until you end up going to school and being exposed to other adults, like they're the only adults in your life.

So they're like your image of safety and love. Like no matter how they're treating you, like that's your only frame of reference. But for the most part, my dad seemed normal. He seemed like, I mean, he was like an all American Christian father type of thing. And it's hard to really. say if there were signs because I was so young. But yeah, he was like, I only saw him once a week, so it was warm enough. But I guess I'll start with like when everything started to change. So like I said, my sister is a year older than me. And so because we were pretty close in age,

like we were really best friends. And on those Sundays with my father, like, she was, So she was a year older than me, but she was like two years in school just based on like the month cut off. And she, we had different interests. Like I was very interested in art. She was very like brainiac, like reading all the time, really, really smart. And my father, I think, took a lot of interest in like what showed as like a promising intellect in her. So he would like, you know, buy her all these books. and they eventually started doing this.

I don't know if you remember, but they used to like sell, they used to have, these were really big for kids. They were these little like packets, um, of like trivia called Brain Quest. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So there were like, they had different themes, like educational stuff. Like one would be maybe like geography or math. And I don't remember completely. But like,

we had a ton of those that he would like kind of play with with my sister. And so, oh, I should also clarify that, like, he lived in a house in Maryland, but after he and my mother split, he was, like, renting the upstairs to another family. Okay. And he was living in the basement. So every Sunday we would be, like, in his basement. Got it. And so he had, like, a back bedroom, and it's kind of blurry. At this point, I was six, and my sister was eight years old.

And he would do this thing called special, he called it special time with daddy, where he would pull my sister to the back room and they would just be in the bedroom together. And I would be just doing my own thing, playing with my own toys, whatever. There were times where I would like wander back to find them and I would see them on the bed just kind of studying the brain quests. So I kind of got an idea of like what that was and it happened frequently. And one Sunday, the same kind of thing I'm left alone playing by myself. And I, and this might be hard to bear with me as I recount it. But I wander into his back bedroom.

and it's dark and I see, so I'm six, and at six you really don't have the words to even begin to conceptualize a scene like this, but I see him and my older sister naked on the bed, and he's on top of her, and she, is frozen and limp and she looks dead because her eyes are like they're open but they're glazed over like as if like an animal had died with their eyes open like she was she looked dead and he was moving on top of her and at the time I didn't I obviously did not know what that was but it looked like she was being attacked.

And as I walk into the room, I guess my father hears me while he's raping her. And he turns his head and he makes direct eye contact with me for like a second. And then he just turns back and continues raping her

as if I was, as if he hadn't seen me at all. Like as if I was just like a ghost in the corner of the room. And I was, I was frozen, but there was nothing else I could do because he, there was no acknowledgement, there was nothing. So I just, like, walked out of the room and, and that was that. And, but later that evening, I think he would, like, really keep to himself.

and he was, like, private in a lot of ways while, like, the kids were left. Like, we had a lot of time alone between each other where we could talk. So, like, later that evening, I saw her, and I just remember in the hallway, like, outside that bedroom, like, confiding in her and, like, being very scared and asking her, like, What was that? Are you okay? And I was really surprised by her reaction because it was very much like, yes, don't worry about it. Like, please just stop. Don't worry about it. Like, it was evident that she like didn't want to talk about it. And but I was asking questions because like my intuition, like I didn't need to know what it was. Like I had no clue what like rape or sex or any like even yeah, none of that. Well, that's the thing.

It's so interesting, you know, from hearing so many different stories like this. And I always, I mean, it's, I feel like it's kind of obvious that even as a child, you don't know what's happening. But it's like your butt knows that it's something wrong. Even though you might have like never heard of sex, never seen sex. It's just you know this is. Well, because too, it's like we're on a day to day basis. We're not naked. You know what I mean? We're not, nobody's just walking around naked. So to see that type of act, it like it's a, even as a child, even if you can't describe it or understand it, you know something's off. And it's scary.

Yeah. And like, before we learn language, like as creatures, we are like very attuned to energy. And I just, I mean, for lack of. any way to put it like you what you're saying with the intuition you can just feel like everything about it feels dark it feels violent it feels like evil and so i felt that and it and i knew like i didn't need to know what it was i just i and i knew from the look in her eyes like that was not my sister that was like so yeah terrifying and she was very defensive she was very scared and it it was clear to me that, I mean, looking back, it's clear that she was threatened into keeping it secret and, you know, but I was asking questions because I was concerned. And I was like, why does he do that? Like, what is that? And she was like, he does it because he misses mommy.

So at this point, like I said, my parents were divorced and he, uh, My mother divorced him. And he was, like, still single, I guess. Not obviously, and I'm going to go into it, obviously, that's no reason. That's like a crazy excuse to tell a child. But she told me, he does it when he misses mommy. And he does it to me because I look like her. And that I should clarify.

It was pretty cryptic because, So I have blonde hair and my father has the same kind of like dirty blonde as me. But my mother and my sister actually have like the same color hair as you like dark brown, nearly black. So there was this like clear like distinction. And so in my six year old child mind like it made sense. I was like, oh, like he misses her and she looks like her. And it was it was very dark, very twisted. But she said that.

And then I was like, we need to tell mommy. Like, I just, I knew. And she was like, no, like, no, we can't. And was so, so serious about it. And I pushed because, like, I was terrified. My intuition was really telling me that it was important. And then out of nowhere, like my sister to really shut me, down, she was like, if you tell her, I'm going to kill myself. And like, if you tell mommy,

I'm going to kill myself. And again, it was like this flooding of like one thing after another that I really didn't understand. Like, I had never heard of the concept of suicide. Like, I didn't know that was a thing. But I did, like, have some sort of conception around dying. because my grandma had died previously around the same time my parents got divorced, and that, like, really affected me when I was younger. So, like, I knew what loss was. And so I understood the risk of losing my sister. And that was terrifying because she was my best friend.

And, like, I knew the right thing to do would be to tell my mother, but the risk of not only, like, losing my sister, her life ending, like never seeing her again. But then on another level, being the one responsible, like, for why she's gone, if, like, I was, if I told and then I'm the reason she decided to do that. So that threat shut me up immediately. It was like, it was a disgusting feeling that I didn't understand, like, how wrong it felt to be keeping a secret.

but I, that didn't leave me with like any choice because as a child you don't have that logic. Like if that's even like any, if there's even like a slight chance that could happen, like, it just shut me up. So after that, I was, so I was six, she was eight. I was in first grade at the time. My mother, I should say, had remarried a man a few years. prior. And he was really great, just like a really solid, safe man that I really trusted. So he, and I'll explain later, was very much like a father figure to me.

But my exposure to men in my life pretty much was just my stepfather, him, and then my father, the rapist, and my first grade teacher at the time was also a man. And so without the words to really understand what was happening, I was just very haunted by the image I saw. And the way, I mean, all I really had at that point was pattern recognition. And it was like a man doing this to like the little girls that he loves. And I really just was left with this impression that this is something that like men do when they're close to people. And so I became like very irrationally afraid of my first grade teacher.

And that was like the first impact I really felt. Like every day in class, like I was a very good student. And I was like, I was very sweet. And I could tell that he really like believed in me. Like I could feel his like a very pure love coming for my teacher. But that actually terrified me even more because like, previously I'd felt something like that from my father. And I'm like, oh, well, this is, this is what happens.

This is what men do. So that was kind of the first bit of me really feeling the impact. But on the other hand, I basically started witnessing my sister slowly deteriorate. And so she was two grades above me. So third grade at that point. And you can only imagine the physical impact of being, having your body invaded at that age. And like having, it's a life-threatening event that's happening to you. Like, who knows how often.

And, like, it's very common to develop all sorts of, like, nervous habits and ticks and just, like, ways your body is reacting to that level of, like, constant danger. And so she, you know, she was always, like, biting her. her nails, she was doing very strange, like, quote, strange behaviors, like compulsively, like, picking her nose, like, eating it. At times, like, even, like, licking her shoe, it was, like, very clearly the signs of, like, a child in distress, like, when birds are, like, you know, depressed, they'll, like, pick out their feathers. It's just, it's very evident to me, like, that these were signs of her, like, unraveled. But of course, what they get labeled at that time is some sort of, quote, mental illness because despite how common it is, and I'm sure you know, like, it's incredibly common for this kind of sexual abuse to be happening. But like, it's not really spoken about. And so people didn't really question it. And she was instead funneled into psychiatry as a child. So she was taken to it because my mom was worried. And she, my,

My mom, like, saw what was happening and, like, my sister had been sworn into secrecy by my dad, and so was I. So, yeah, they just took her to a child psychiatrist to try to see what was happening. And at that point, like, one of my earliest memories is, I mean, I have a lot of, there were a lot of weeks I spent, like, just waiting in the waiting room while my sister was, like, at this appointment. but there was one point where they took us into like play therapy, which is like in the sandbox, you're like, the psychiatrist asks the kids to like model their family. And so my sister and I are like playing together

because they like brought me in for her to like have someone. And they were like, show us your family. And so we model out like, this is our mom and this is our stepdad and like this is us and it's just the four of us and like our dad is nowhere. Hi guys, today's episode is sponsored by Jasper. Okay, so I just moved into a new house and if any of you have moved before then I am sure you can relate to all the new fumes, the smells, whether it's new paint, new furniture, chemical fumes. If you're moving into an older house,

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and safe for not only me, but also my amazing fur babies. So that being said, if you want to try Jasper, they actually gave me a code for $300 off. All you have to do is use code insane at Jasper.com. That is insane. I-N-S-A-N-E at Jasper, J-A-S-P-R dot CO for $300 off. And I promise you, you will not regret it. Your air will be scrubbed clean, fresh, filtered, and you will feel a lot more safer and comfortable in your environment too. And now, back to the episode. And the psychiatrist was like, well, where's your father? And, and, you know, And we take another little figurine and then we put it at the very end of the sandbox, like, in the corner, with his head upside down, buried in the sand. And just, like, laugh to ourselves and giggle.

Because at the time, like, we didn't have words, but that was, like, as kids, like, our kids, our communication about it. And I know what happened behind closed doors because my mother later told me that supposedly the psychiatrist said to her after the appointment, these kids have a major problem with their father. But then they just put her on meds because at the time, so like they were divorced. I should mention that he basically had us in like a, he had my mother in a constant legal battle,

like a custody battle. So he was trying to like get more visitation time. So the narrative that was out in the open about like the family conflict was mostly just like, oh, he is trying to get more visitation in court and it's causing a lot of stress because court cases are stressful and the kids are stressed because of this. And that was kind of like the prevailing narrative of like why we have a problem with our dad because like he keeps taking her to court and it's just like the kids don't want that. So she got put on medication. It did, I will say like it it numbed her, I think, for sure. It numbed her. Did they say what they were treating her with, so to say? Yeah, at the time, I really think she was diagnosed with like OCD ADHD.

And I think it was because there were these like compulsive behaviors. Yeah, right. And there were a lot of fears too, I should mention. Like, I don't know. She was just like very scared, like terrified of like bad things happening, which a lot of people label that OCD. Basically, yeah, she was like psychiatrised, put on medical. and honestly bullied a lot, I'll say, because of those behaviors being on public display at

school, she started getting bullied a lot and that made things like much worse. But for the most part, like I said, I was like very afraid. But I think I really sought out solace in friendship. like at that point with my sister kind of mentally deteriorating, I shouldn't even say mentally. It was like full, like emotionally, physically, like all of these things coming together. But that, I mean, we were best friends before and that really drove a wedge in our relationship because she basically curled in on herself. But to survive, she really like, again, she enjoyed reading before that. So she really dove into, like, reading and, like, other worlds.

Like, imagine, like, Harry Potter obsession, like, all of these, like, really positive, as positive of an escape as you can really find at that age. So I also really got the impression, which is very sick, but I got the impression that this was a, was because of the reason she gave, that he does this to me because I look like mommy, because she has brown hair like our mother. There was this impression that it wouldn't happen to me. And almost that my older sister was doing this

to kind of keep this away from me. So we kept continuing seeing him just every Sunday. And at that point, my father had a friend that he grew up with with his own family. So like imagine his former friend growing up, like has a wife and a kid. And they lived just like a couple hours north. So some weekends because she was also an only child, they would like come visit. So the parents could like hang out together and then their daughter would like hang out with us kids.

And like I said, all the names here are real except to protect this little girl's privacy. see, I'm going to just call her M, the letter M. So she was three years old. At that point, I was, I'm eight now. So I'm five years older than her, and she starts kind of coming every couple months to visit. And, like, I've always had a thing for, like, I don't know, I grew up very playful, like, a close attachment to, like, animals and children. And just like anything I could like nurture. And so I really loved having someone younger than me because she was like a little sister.

And I always wanted one. And so that actually made those weekend or the Sunday visitations much more pleasant because I had this cute little girl to play with. And we grew really close, like so close that like, I don't know, she really felt like family. and they began visiting more frequently just because her parents saw how attached she was to me. Hey, I'm Jeremy Schwartz from American Criminal. On this season, robbery gone wrong or cold-blooded murder? Either way, Boston will never be the same.

Listen to American Criminal, the murder of Carol Stewart, wherever you get your podcasts. Or to get early ad-free access, Subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at Americancriminal.com. So one weekend, and I will also say there were some weekends where my sister wasn't around, and maybe it was like she had some sort of extracurricular, I'm not quite sure, but on one of the weekends where it was just me and M, the little girl. And we were playing together, and I think,

her parents had like stepped out, um, to go off on their own or have some sort of quality time. And that was one of the reasons why like, I think they also enjoyed this because like when the families came together, like parents could kind of take off shifts. So me and the little girl were left with my father in his basement. And she and I were just playing together. And, And he approaches us and asks us if we want to, like, play a game in the shower. And so, like, again, like, there's intuition there where you can kind of tell when something feels off and something felt really off for me. But I was with her, and that was good, at least.

and he was my father and he was the only authority figure there. So we had to kind of follow him. And so he told us to come play this game in the shower and like undressed us and brought us into the shower almost as if we were just going to, he was just going to bathe us. And at that age, you're still like being, your mom is still kind of like should be teaching you eventually how to like shower yourself, but I think most kids are used to their parents

showering them at that age. And so it wasn't like crazy, even though the energy was weird and I didn't know like why she was coming in with me, but, um, he brings us into the shower. And again, this might be like really hard to recall. Um, but because I'm going to say some detail, like some details that are just gross but um yeah it just shifts and i realize like the it really dawns on me like oh my god he's about to do what i what i saw before um now quick question did you only witness it one time with your sister yeah okay i only did but it looking back it it is very scary because I'm really not sure how many times it had happened prior. Okay, got it.

And there were multiple times that they were going kind of in that background by themselves. Okay, that was the only time you kind of walked in on it. Well, the strange part is like I, they were doing this what he called special time with daddy where they were studying the brain quests. Yeah. And there was some, there was at least one time before that when I like would walk in and there were just all these brain quests and they're sitting on the bed studying. rain quests. So then the other time I walk in and she's being raped. So yeah from my impression was that

they're just doing this like study thing together, but it maybe it was a mix of both. I'm really not like I'm pretty sure it, especially by our conversation afterwards, like this is a thing he does when he misses mommy. It seemed like it was an established thing. Yeah, got it. Right. So we're in the shower, me and the little girl, three-year-old, M. And she doesn't, like, talk that much, you know, like, as any three-year-old does, she can say some stuff, but she's very quiet. And then I'm, I guess I'll just get into it. He starts, like, molesting her, like, her first in front of me.

And she starts, like, crying and she's really scared. And, like, I think her crying kind of made him, like, back off for a second. And, like, it's a tight space. Like, this is happening in a shower. And so she's in the corner. And he, it's disgusting because he, he, it's disgusting because he, was just going to, like, do whatever he wanted to me. Like, he was about to stick his penis inside of me. Just, and I was in so much pain. Like, I started, like, freaking out. And, like, I started, like,

freaking out and like and then he stopped and hesitated you know and that's where I really in that moment like I felt like I saw my life flashed before my eyes because I knew something was really something really bad was going to happen like again I didn't even know what it was but there was a sense that there was a sense that like this was kind of like a make it or break it moment. that would change the trajectory of my life. And so I was scared and I was trying to, in whatever way I had as a kid of like expressing my fear to him and hoping he might not, I was hesitating, buying time and he was trying to convince me to like let him do it.

And he says to me, this will make you smart like your sister. And there are a lot of layers to this that I'm going to talk about probably. But over, and I'm eight years old at this point, but over the years, like especially with, like, I said, there was this different disposition of us kids. Like, she was very brainiac. I was very interested in, like, art. And over the years, he would always, like, repeat, like, Stephanie is the smart one and Kelsey is the artistic one.

And there was always a kind of like, I don't know, there was always this very clear sense that he valued intellect and it was almost like a, this vague kind of demeaning. Like you weren't good enough? Yeah. And so what really feels sick and like he, I feel that he could read a, I feel that he could read us very well. And I feel that he knew there was this pre-established tone, that that was the undertone of things, that like, this is a smart one. And for him to say, this will make you smart like your sister, it was laden with this like... Like a manipulation of like, that's why this is

okay. Or like maybe to make you feel like this will make me seem, and correct me if I'm wrong. But like it would put you on her level in a way. Yeah. And there was this like he was withholding and like shaming in like this subtle way where I did not feel loved by him. And I was eight years old and like, like I said, for kids children or for kids parents are essentially like have an almost like Godlike power in the sense that like we're born unconditionally loving towards them and no matter like because we're we're still developing like and we're not exposed to anything else like the love doesn't waver towards your parent even if you're seeing them do bad things like um particularly because like it wouldn't have been safe for me to fully let in the reality of just how

dangerous he was because I was relying on him for food and shelter. And so I had to kind of, you know, continue believing he was a safe person. And in that sense, like, all I really wanted was his love. And in that moment, I felt like I am, like there's something wrong with me. And he needs to fix it. And then I'll be okay. So did he have sex with him? the with the with M or was it just was it more like the touching and things like that um he molested her okay so it was like sorry I'm I'm very sensitive with the word sex yeah just because I want to clarify like rape like um but technically the definition of rape is penetration you know so molestation like um I believe he

inserted his fingers into her. And so that technically is rape, but like at the very least, like touching, fondling molestation. And then for you, he was trying to. For me, he was about to. Yeah. And so he was like, this will make you smart like your sister. And there was a sense, like, there were layers to it too because I knew that this was something of violence he was doing to my sister. And if, if, like, I wanted to say no, I wished I could say no. Would he have listened to me if, if I had said no or would he have, like, pushed harder? But I just froze. And there was also a sense that he would keep hurting her even worse. Like, so he, anyway, like I said, he tried putting his penis inside of me and I cried and, like, it was so painful and he ended up

stopping and then raping me with his fingers. And so I was frozen, staring up at him. And this is like the scary part. Like I remember looking up at just seeing this like wide grin, the largest smile I had ever seen on him. Like, like smiling like. a maniac and definitely this crazed look in his eyes. But as a kid, like, I had never seen an emotion like that, you know, like you see stuff in movies of like very, like, dramatic things.

I had never seen anything like that before. Like, and I'm, to this day, I'm not sure what kind of emotion that was, but it was the biggest smile, like a, like a crazy maniac just like delighting in this. And, but with my limited. emotional range, I just thought, like, he's, like, the biggest smile I've ever seen. Like, I'm making him so happy. And, um, and this is a really dark part that I wasn't sure if I wanted to share or not, but I'm just going to because I think it's important, um, to any, like, other survivors listening. Basically, he, you know, and it's different levels of sick and twisted. Like, and it makes very clear that rape is not about his like some sort of supposed

physical need, right? Because like he's not, he's getting off on me trembling in fear as he like digitally rapes me with his fingers. Like there's no excuse of like, I miss mommy or like, I have physical needs. It's like he has some sick fascination with doing this. So out of nowhere, my body starts shaking uncontrollably. And I feel like I'm about to die because there's just this inner, like, explosion happening. And I feel like I'm completely losing control over my body and nothing like that has ever happened to me. And it even feels like I black out for a second. And what I didn't know at the time was that that was an orgasm.

And I have been really hesitant to share this part over the years because there's so much stigma and this association with orgasm and pleasure. When in reality it is for a lot of people like a physiological response that's uncontrollable in the same way that when you're being tickled, you can't help but squirm and laugh. and it does not mean you're enjoying it, like, at the very least. Like, sometimes, like, you're like, please make it stop, but, like, your body can't help that response. And so that happened to me. And I'm sure for a lot of survivors, there's a lot of shame around that feeling, even because it's not your fault and it's not something you want, but I can see how for somebody that can be such a confusing thing to grasp and understand and deal with.

100%. And luckily, I mean, I shouldn't say luckily, but. But, like, as a child, I didn't even know what it was. Yeah. Like, I didn't know what sex was. I didn't know what rape was. I had never heard the word penis in my life. So this was all, everything I was seeing was totally new territory.

And that, like, was something I wouldn't learn for years to come. So I know for a lot of survivors who are raped, like, let's say in their 20s. And then they orgasm during the assault, that's like a really a thick, deep shame. because, like, at that point, you really think orgasm is pleasure. Yeah. But for me, like, with the brain of a child, I did not know what it was. And I asked my father afterwards because, like, I literally was shocked to even recover from, like, what felt like a body blackout?

And I asked him, what was that? And I'm sure it must have been terrifying for the three-year-old in the corner to see whatever the hell just happened. But so I say, what was that? And he says, it means the magic worked, which was so believable for me because I felt like some, like, out of this world, like thing just possessed my body. And he had just, like, framed this as almost him casting a magic spell to make me smarter. So it was weird layers of like this crazy story. And manipulation.

Yeah. So then, you know, that's the end of the shower. And he tells me, he sits me down and he tells me like, if you can't tell anyone about what happened, if you tell anyone, daddy's going to go to jail and mommy's never going to be happy again. And you will never see M again. You'll never get to see M again, the little three-year-old. So these threats terrified me. A, she was like a younger sister to me. So the thought of never seeing her again broke my heart.

B, like at eight years old, I heard horror stories of jail, but for the most part, jail was where bad people went. And, you know, that was, I didn't really know at that time. Like, I didn't have the word for rape. So I didn't even know what that was. Or if it was a criminal act, like, all I knew was like I had a. attachment to my father and I thought of my father as a good man and why would he ever go to jail? Like that wouldn't be right. So like a lot of children, if they are threatened with the risk of sending someone to jail, like that really silences them. But then even more so, like, I don't have a conception of emotions and like the complexity of them. And I really believed the risk that my mother would never experience happiness another day in her life.

So all of that shut me up. Then he left the two of us alone in the bathroom. And on his way out, I see him pick up a camera from the shelf and walk out with it. And that was like a very, I thought to myself because this, I should say, like, over the years, he was really into photography, like, all the time. He was always taking photos of me and my sister, just, like, documenting everything. So seeing the camera was not out of the ordinary. But I had this sense of, like, he takes photos of special moments.

And there was this weird, like, thought, like, was this, like, so special to him? Like, he wanted to capture it. Obviously, looking back, I know that he was filming child pornography. and it's really dark and disgusting. But, yeah, so he left and he left me and the little girl alone to, like, play together, to recover from what just happened. And she, I should say that, like, I was really affected by this threat of never seeing her again because I knew that I could keep it a secret, but I didn't know what she was going to.

going to say. And there was this inherent risk that this would be my last time ever seeing her. Like, I really believed that. And that Sunday, she had been carrying around. It's going to sound weird, but she had been carrying around and playing with this little Christmas ornament all weekend with her name on it. And like the year she was born. And you know how like when we're kids, It's like we find those little trinkets that like have our name on them. And she had a very like unique name. So I guess she didn't like find those often. But this little ornament had her name on it.

And she was just carrying it around and playing with it all weekend. And in the aftermath, after we left the bathroom, I saw this ornament that she was playing with on the shelf. And I don't know what came over me, but I just grabbed it. And I took it. and I guess I stole it. And my reasoning at that age was that, like, I don't want to forget her.

Like, this might be the last time I ever see her in my life. And I want to, like, have this thing to remember. So I took that and then I never thought about it. But then her mom and dad came home later. And I'm pretty sure she must, like, with her limited three-year-old language, She expressed what happened. And she clearly didn't have the words to explain it, but she was crying to her mother. She explained at the very least that he had showered us.

And that was a huge red flag to her mom. So that evening, that Sunday evening, I was like witnessing this crazy fight between her parents and my father. And her mom, like, I just have this image of her mom holding her, like, in her arms and just screaming, crying at my, like, crying and screaming at my father. Like, you showered my daughter. Um, and I remember watching it, like crying, or I remember watching her crying and feeling so confused. Like, why is this so. So. dramatic, like, oh, like, shit, this is like a really serious thing. And it definitely confirmed to me, like, my intuition that what was going on was really bad. And my father was, I will

explain, I guess, as the story goes on, but, like, very good at gaslighting, like, very much, like, his presentation was, like, loving all-American dad, like, Christian man, whatever. And he was kind of treating her like, what the heck, you're crazy? And she's, like, swearing that they're never going to see each other again. And so that evening, I really, I was left with the feeling that I'm never going to see them again. And I know that after that over time, like, he, this was his best friend's daughter. So he convinced them, like, oh, like, they're overreacting. Like, I was just giving the girls a bath, basically. Um, so that, that ended up blowing over.

But, yeah. So I took this ornament, and that is the end of that chapter. But later on when I was home and I ended up, because my sister wasn't there that day, when I ended up seeing my sister, later that day, when I ended up seeing my sister, like we still had this close bond, almost like, it was hard.

because it was never that, like, joyful, like, friendship that we once had. And it, but it really did turn almost into, like, we are, little did we know, like, we are almost, like, soldiers, like, trauma bonding through a war zone. And, like, we are the people we, the only people we can really confide in. So later that night, I just remember being, like, huddled, like, next to her and, like, whispering to her, like, Stephanie. Daddy did to me what he did to you. And because I didn't have a word for it.

But she, and this is like a really shocking part, because she was such a brainiac, because I will say we had unlimited internet, like, well, not unlimited. Like, I think my mother let us surf the internet for like 30 minutes a day maybe. because she was in like she was in I was eight so I was in third grade in that point she was in fifth grade so she was playing all these computer games she was like big on the internet and but I wasn't

quite yet and so because she spent this time on the internet and she was a big reader and she was always trying to figure things out intellectually that's how I attribute her figuring this out that's what I attributed to but so I say daddy did to me what he did to you. And then she goes, he raped you? And what's interesting now is that when I heard that word, I realized that must mean what I think it means because it was actually my second time hearing it. And I didn't include this previously, but there was a time maybe a few months after the first time I walked in and witnessed her rape where she had a blow-up, like a blow-up fight with my father, still at the time when I was six and she was eight.

Or maybe I was seven, she was nine by that point, because it was a little time after the first rape. And my father had gotten a new girlfriend. So this woman, he was dating, her name's Emma. she would sometimes be around for those Sunday visitations. And at this visit, I look back and I really view this as a cry for help on my sister's part. But she and my father are just having this intense fight. And I was like scared.

And I had already, because of the threats and because of the way my sister had like, framed things. Like those weekends, I was very quiet. I just tried to like keep the peace and like get through the day. But my sister was having this really wild fight. And this was still during the period where like her like quote, psychiatric issues were coming up. And she,

um, she was like screaming and crying. And she yelled at him, you raped me. while his girlfriend was in the room. And I was about seven, and that was my first time ever hearing the word rape. And I very distinctly remember that

because there's like a very unique sensation of hearing a word for the first time, especially at that age. Like I didn't know the meaning, but there were all these context clues of like, she's freaking out. They're acting appalled to that, like, where, like, her, his girlfriend had this crazy

reaction, like, where would you learn that word? Like, who's teaching you that? And because there was this really intense custody battle happening, he would spin all these narratives around, like, your mother just hates me and she's trying to turn you kids against me. Like, your mother's brainwashing you or, like, your mother's planting these ideas to try to, like, sabotage me. So, he definitely fed his girlfriend that narrative. And she was like, oh, my God, like, a pod. Like, where where would you like learn that from? Like who's teaching you? Don't ever use that word again.

Which is so fucked up. Like if a child like, like there are so many layers of silencing that happens with like child molestation and child sexual abuse. And the courage that it takes for her to finally like it was like she just after year, after like probably like repeated abuse like and fear and silencing she finally exploded with the truth and then immediately just got like pushed down like how dare you accuse your father of something like you can never say that again like that's horrible he would never do that like

and so she was screaming and crying and she started like screaming ask Kelsey Kelsey saw it And I'm in the corner of the room just silent and terrified because at that point, like, I'm only seven. It had been maybe like either few months or a year since I saw what I saw and since I was threatened into silence. And like child memory is kind of weird at that point. Like I'm, I wasn't fixated on it and because I didn't know the word. Like that didn't immediately come to mind. And for me, it was just like a crazy. bat-shit fight

scene that I didn't know what to do and it almost at that age it seemed like my sister, even though she was like defending herself, trying to speak the truth and crying out for help, maybe his girlfriend would be a safe adult. Like for me, I didn't know what to do.

I didn't know the word and I just shook my head and I think I just wanted the fighting to stop. But I didn't understand. And then she like, they were like asked Kelsey, like, did this happen? And I was just like, no. And that was the wrong thing because she started freaking out and was like, she's lying and just like flailing, kicking, screaming. Like, so anyway, that happened after I witnessed the first rape of her before I was ever raped,

like a year before I was raped. So it's really tragic to look back and know that the truth it did get out verbatim. Like, we were too scared. She was too scared to ever, like, tell our mom, of course, and anyone. But that came out one day. And I really do believe it's because she was on the internet a lot. And she probably, like, you know, we knew what Google was. And she probably searched to understand what was happening to her and found the word rape.

Or even, like, she was reading the dictionary at that age. So, like, anyway, after, flash forward to. after I was raped that evening, I'm telling her, Daddy did to me what he did to you. And then she says, he raped you. And then it all clicked because I remember that's the other time I heard that word. And I still didn't know the meaning,

but I had heard it twice now. And I pretty much knew what it meant. So then I just like nodded my head. And she goes with his penis. And then I was like, no, with his penis. know with his fingers and she was like, that's not rape, which looking back, like, technically by definition, it still is, but as a kid, she didn't know. And then I was just like, oh, okay. But then she gets really, really, really, like, sad visibly and, like, really scared for me and starts saying,

like, I'm so sorry. And at that point, like, I was very frozen. And I was, like, I was, like, oh, like, this is serious. And she's telling me, like, I'll be there for you. Like, I promise I'll be there for you. It's going to be okay. But you might start getting sick like me. And this is like a really weird part to tell because it was almost like she as a child had this very deep intuition.

Yeah, or like understanding of what was happening. She knew she was having these, quote, psychiatric symptoms because of the rape. Like, it was a cause. effect like it was so obvious her and so she's like you might start getting sick like me but then we can just go to doctor so-and-so her psychiatrist and like they'll give you medication and you'll give you medicine and you'll be okay like me so that kind of just assured me like okay like okay like things are okay and it was like it's so sad like looking back like the two of us like handling all of this on her own, but it was like, we'll make it through. Like, our dad won't go to

jail. Our mom won't have to know about this. It becomes like a normal. Like a normal in your life and experience, in your story. Yeah, exactly. So after that conversation with my sister, like, she was very supportive, but there was also almost this sense of like, this is how we do things. Like, we're not going to really talk about this afterwards. Just like, almost like she gave me a heads up, like, this might happen. You'll get meds. It'll be fine. But I got the sense that this wasn't going to be like an ongoing conversation. It was just a reality. It was just my new reality. And I remember going to sleep, like, alone in my room at my mother's house that evening. Like, my mother would, like, say goodnight to me and stuff. And that was the first realization of, like, I'm keeping.

Like, I can't tell her this. And I felt completely and utterly, really, like, alone. And I was raised Christian. So at that point, like, I, you know, I was going to Sunday school. And I really, like, was taught to pray to God, to turn to God with your problems. And I remember praying in my bedroom that night. and the interesting part was like I had prayed previously for sure. I had like tried,

especially after I had witnessed what I saw with my sister. But this was like a different level. Like it was because I think I was in such a low space emotionally and physically, like being violated. I was definitely bleeding the next day. But that night, like, Like, and before I tell this part, like, I do want to preface with, like, anyone listening. Like, I just really hope that no matter what, like, your spiritual beliefs are, that this part of the story can be, like, digested and integrated, like, whether or not you want to believe in the possibility of this or not.

Like, I hope that you can understand what happened in, like, whatever way fits your worldview without, like, casting this aside as impossible. I'll say that. But I prayed that night because I was hopeless. And what I really wanted was to turn back time. Like there was that moment I described that was like almost like this moment right before being raped. Like I got a sense that it would change the trajectory of my life forever.

And what I really wanted was to turn back time. like I want to erase this. I want to have a chance at a redo. Like I didn't want this to ever happen. And it's going to sound very strange, but in my total solitude that night, as a desperate child praying to God, I got an answer. And I don't think I was talking to God, capital G, the God. But I was speaking. to an angel, or angels plural, like an angelic force was answering my prayers, and the presence was so, it was there. Like, I was, and I'll describe it was, but like, the communication was clearer than anything I had felt in my life, and it was like, like, I had been living in terror for years at that point, like my, because of what I saw with my sister, like, there were just, I was very

haunted by these scenes and I, I hadn't really known any sense of deep safety at that point in my life at all. And that night, like, it was like this loving embrace by this force that really promised me, like, everything is going to be okay. And I'll try to describe it in more detail, but basically I was praying and asking, like, can I turn back time? And it was like this angel told me, like, no, you can't, but you can forget. And I was, I realized like, okay, like maybe that will work. Like maybe forgetting is the answer. But I thought to myself, like, I don't want to forget forever.

I want to remember eventually. Like, I don't want a piece of my life gone forever. And this angelic force really reassured me that, like, you can forget for now and remember when you're ready. And, like, I really don't know how to describe it. And that's why I give this preface of, like, please, like, I don't care if, like, you don't believe in this stuff. But like, you know, my mother doesn't believe in this stuff, but she, a lot of people would conceptualize it. Let's say you don't believe in angels, that this is some sort of like I'm accessing the depths of like my own intuition or my higher knowing. Yeah.

But to me, I will say it really felt like a higher power outside of me that knew far more than I ever could and that knew more about the spandum. of my own life and because I got this flash. It was like I was given a flash of the future. And I saw myself like 10, like a decade later, like living in a house with like these other girls. And it was like I was being shown a flash of where I would be when I would finally remember after the repression. And it's going to sound weird, but it really did feel almost like.

Like I made a deal that night with an angel. And I was very scared to tell this part of the story. And I've never, I've actually never spoken openly about it because, like, I know that it's controversial to make these sorts of claims of like mystical experiences. But that was what made me feel okay. It was exactly what I needed after my first rape to find the strength to, like, go on. And I feel really grateful that I had the sensibility to pray that night and to be warned about what was going to happen. Because a lot of survivors, it is so incredibly common to repress your memories. And in fact, like, it happens automatically for a lot of people because it's necessary for survival,

because you're going to continue living with your rapist day in and day out, or in my case, seeing him once a week, like, living through that level of threat. Because after the first rape, it's a different kind of psychological torture when you know, you're living through a constant ever-present threat of rape after that, because it could happen at any moment. So even in like, you're having a good day, it's like any moment you know what he's capable of. So my body, after that, never felt safe again. Any moment I'm with him, it's pure survival mode, like, kind of response.

But, yeah, basically because of those, like, the extreme threat and, like, the conditions of childhood and, like, most children who are being abused, like, it's very hard to function without compartmentalizing it in some way, whether that is total memory repression or, like, some sort of like compartmentalization or like putting it in a box or making sense of it, but a lot of people repress it. And my sister ended up repressing it as well. But and then so did I. So after and I'll explain like there were a few more instances of rape before it stopped.

But like then for the for the next decade, I totally wiped it out. So anyway, that was a. And I'll circle back to the angel thing later. And I just just say as well to you and just in my opinion, anybody that isn't open to any type of spiritual experience or mystical experience, in my opinion, just isn't in tune with themselves. I think that I know that there is a higher power. Whatever, like you said, whatever that may be for you,

whether it's God or religion or spirituality or anything in between. take it as you will, but it does not stop with humans. 100%. Yeah. And the fascinating thing too is like, I do think being raped as a child is such an extreme event that, like your world is very small as a kid. And that is like a,

that's a bomb that explodes. And it really like makes your world for better, for worse, so much larger because like your brain has to like, like instantly expand to like try to like like scramble to make sense of it. Right. And so in that sense, I think that shaking up reality to such a degree, like it can open people up to different realms of perception, I would say. And in that like darkest moment like of total surrender, like there's an openness, especially as a child to communicate with those kinds of things.

Like, as an, I think adults are less likely to have mystical experiences because, like, we've developed so many barriers. I guess, like, you have to be open to that. Yeah. But after that, I went about my life and I was in third grade, so I'm just, like, going through the motions. And, like, clockwork, like, my sister warned, like, I really did start developing the same kind of, of anxious, nervous, fear-based, quote, symptoms and behaviors, which were really just like a child trying their best to, like, continue with normal school life while, like, not having the resources to cope with child rape. But for me, what that manifested in was, like, labeled

OCD. But really, I think I just developed a lot of, like, obsessive behaviors that had to do with like pretty classic like neatness and tidiness, but like to an obsessive degree, like certain things in my bedroom would have to be in an exact position or like I couldn't go to bed or, um, but it was, so it was nothing like crazy, nothing dramatic from my sister. I had learned basically that like I'd seen her get bullied from these like really extreme behaviors. and I think I grew up really realizing that friendship and social support networks in school were all I had. So I put a lot of emphasis on acting normal. Like that was very important to me.

But these behaviors would come out in my room and I don't know. Like it was in my eyes like a just everything was out of my control. Children as it is have very little control over their lives. And like everything is like routine set out for them. But like, this was my attempt at kind of finding some sense of like mental organization with these like ritualistic. Like I'd count things. I'd whatever. So quickly I got labeled OCD.

It was an interfering with like my school life and stuff like that. And I got sent to the psychiatrist and I got put on medication as well. And it was like looking back, it was definitely just like some low dose of some OCDs. medication. But that became a part of my life. And it became a part of the way I conceptualized myself. Like I learned to view myself as having a mental illness. And especially because of, you know, the mutual repression of my sister and I keeping these secrets and, like, mutually repressing them. And then both of us being funneled into psychiatry in the same way, the prevailing narrative was that, like, we have mental illness, and this mental illness

runs in the family somehow. So that was how I, like, learned to view myself. And, you know, I just, I coped and school was fine and I made it through. Um, and meanwhile, like I mentioned, my father's girlfriend, they continue dating and I, like, start believing. Oh, and then he gets engaged to her. And I start thinking like, oh, maybe that means like she's going to move in and then I'll be safer because there's someone around watching him. And then the court case is continuing at that point. And he's really pushing for overnight visitations. And so then a deal, they strike a deal where like we do overnights like the whole weekend Friday through Sunday, but it's only every other weekend. So we were like, okay, that's a little better. But us kids were like really

terrified. Like my mom was like she didn't understand why we were like freaking out when the overnight started. But looking back, it's because like it, that felt like a more extreme thing or riskier somehow. But he ended up getting engaged to Emma. And then she became, they married and she became my stepmother. The overnight. started and then he she still like had a townhouse and he

still had, he was still living in the basement and sometimes we would like be over at her place because now they were like going back and forth a bit and this brings me into like the next thing

we were my second time being raped, which again, it's going to be very graphic. But it's hard to say why she wasn't home. But like at that point, like, they're married. So, or maybe this was right before they got married and they were just engaged. But they're basically sharing like houses. They trust each other. So we are at her townhouse. house and it's she's out for whatever reason. Maybe she's working, maybe she's like running errands or doing something, but it's just me and my father and my sister at that house. And my father takes me. And

what's interesting to look back, like I'm not at that point, at this point, I'm nine and my sister's maybe 10 or 11 because she's a year and a half older. After the first rape, I really, I really tried to believe that would be a one-time thing. And as time went on, because a year passed, like, I really hoped it would. But then this day in the townhouse, he takes me up into, upstairs into her bedroom, just me and him. And he tells me, like, that he wants to show me his love. And, like, again, I'm only nine.

and like I really did not have a choice. Like he obviously was larger than me. I couldn't overpower him. There was no one to really turn to. I couldn't run out of the room. There was nowhere to run. And I feel like I don't even need to like explain. Anyone listening at this point probably understands why children can't defend themselves from right.

Absolutely. But especially in the sick and twisted ways where that are like very specific to the context of incest. Like a lot of it really is framed through the lens of familial love or like the first one was like that was not framed as sexual even. It was like he's doing this magic spell to turn me smart. And then this one was framed in terms of love. Like I want to show you how much I love you. And so he takes his pants off and like,

sits us down on the bed and he has an erection. And I'd never seen anything like that. I mean, except for the first time, but I think the first time, like, because there was, like, the flash of him trying to penetrate me with this penis, but then it was the fingers. Like, it was less of, like, a right up in my face type of thing. But this, like, he basically was telling me to, like, look at it and pointing to it and was like saying this is how much daddy loves you and I like was scared and I was scared because it was gross like the nudity was gross I didn't like I knew that was weird and then the vibe was weird again the intuition like I just darkness yeah yeah exactly and and this is how much daddy loves you and then I'm him

in this really sick way, began, like, pleading with me. Like, I want to show you how much I love you. Like, he was very manipulative in, like, almost like, like, this act of, like, I'm so genuine and, like, all I want is to show my daughter how much I love her. And then he raped me again. And he basically, like, I was very frozen. And like in a classic kind of like nervous system, science behind it, like, fight, flight, freeze. Like, I could not fight back.

There was no chance he overpowered me. The room was locked. There was nowhere to run to. I couldn't flee. So my only last ditch nervous system response was freezing. And that's what happened. And I was like very similar to what I witnessed in my sister. My body totally limp, looking dead like a prey animal while he raped me.

And the really, really crazy part about this was, you know, at this point, we're completely naked and he's penetrating me with his penis on top of me. And he is, and I'm looking up at this, like very, very. confused as I watch him start to moan and grunt. And I'm sorry if this is too graphic for anyone listening, but what feels important about sharing this is the fact that to conceptualize, like, the mind and emotional world of a child, I'm staring up at my father raping me, grunting and moaning. And again, my perception of like this, of, of like how severe things, this violence is still so skewed. Like, I still don't understand how violent it is because I'm listening to him moan and,

like, all of these faces he's making and, like, and him looking like wild, like an animal. And my first thought is concern. My first thought, but not concern for me, concern for him. I ask myself, am I hurting him? Because I can tell that he's doing something to me, and I think that I'm. hurting him because of these sounds he's making, which is like really like, yeah, it's just really hard to look back at that. And then, like, you know, it finally ends. And he and I watch him, like, have this insane, gross, like, orgasm response. And I feel relieved that it's finally over. And then

he tells me, like, now I'm going to make you feel good. And then all over again, he, like, he, like, And this is really fucking gross to listen to. But like he orally rapes me then. Like he performs like non-consensual oral rape. And I'm again still completely frozen lying back. And he's framing it as like now I'm going to make you feel good or show you how much I love you. and um and that's yeah i mean the layers of it are twisted and gross and then again like clockwork and i really hope i don't regret sharing this but like it does feel important because like

yeah my body uncontrollably like responds i start shaking and have this like explosion and it hurts Like, I'm telling you that before you understand what an orgasm is and you have some sort of consensual orgasm and like surrender to pleasure, like as an adult, that feels really good. But if it's something happening to you that you don't want, that you're not surrendering to, like, it feels terrifying. And it's way too much sensation. Like at that age, it was terrifying. But a lot of people also do theorize that like the adrenaline, like the blood flow and the heightened adrenaline that comes with the fear response makes you more susceptible to orgasming. And sometimes it is something the body can do to like cut and experience like that short even. So like that's the way I conceptualize it.

But afterwards, like again, I asked what that was and he was like, it means you liked it. And then in the aftermath of that rape, he told me, don't ever let another man do this to you until you're married. And that fucked with my brain because I was like, at that point, I still did not know that this was like a thing married people do. And so then I was kind of connecting the dots. But that scared me because I was like, oh my God, why do married people do this? Like, why would anyone want to do this? This is horrible. Like, I never want to get married.

And it was almost like, you have nothing to worry about because I don't want this to ever happen. Like, I don't know. It was just terrifying. But looking back, I obviously know that it was like a sick, twisted, like patriarchal possession type of situation. Like, he wanted to own us in a way. Like, we were not, like, he was very threatened by us. being, like, autonomous humans. And, you know, maybe later I can, like, theorize on the why behind, like, he was,

why he was doing all of this. But I will say for a moment at least that, like, he was very, like, bitter and resentful about the fact that our mother chose to divorce him. And I think he wanted revenge, to put it very simply, but also, like, he was very, like, he wanted to punish her. like destroy what he knew she loved most, which were her kids. But yeah, he said, don't ever let another man do this to you until you're married. And I was like sickened.

And this part feels really important. And I don't know like how I was brave enough to do this. But like after that second rape, I got the sense that this was going to become a regular reality. like it had been for my sister. And I knew I had to try my best to say something at least. And we're sitting on the side of the bed like our clothes are back on. And I'm like, I'm really in awe of my younger self whenever I recall this, but I just said to him, Daddy, I never want this to happen again.

And that was my way of putting it because, like, you're like, really looking back, like, I was still this kid with this, like, without understanding and with this loyalty and love towards my father and, like, you know, obviously now I know an appropriate response would have been, like, rage and, like, serious repercussions. But at that point, with, like, my blind loyalty towards him, the most I could do was almost just plead with him. Like, I don't, like, I don't. Like, I don't want this to ever happen again.

And so I just said that straight up. And he, and I was surprised and I didn't understand, but he got so tense and so, like, started scrambling a little bit, like, repeating all this stuff about, like, you can't tell anyone. Like, if you tell anyone, like, there will be X, Y, Z consequences. And he got visibly stressed out. And now I realize it's because, like, me saying that and, like, proving that, like, I actually have a voice.

I think it made him really afraid that I would tell other people. But he basically said, like, okay, just like, don't tell anyone. So, you know, it's, it sucks because, like, the damage is really done already from, like, those already life-threatening events. But I do feel grateful that, like, I saved myself from, potentially saved myself. a bit from more like repeated rapes. So after you said that to him, he didn't do it again? Well, he didn't do that exactly, but he did continue doing other things, which I'll explain.

But yeah, so that happened. Proud of myself for that. Then as time goes on, like, I never told my sister about that one. You know, she's getting older. and I think like he was probably realizing that the more we age, the more dangerous it was for him, just in terms of like us telling or someone finding out. But my sister, like, beyond the rapes, like, he, I will say just like his disposition as a person was very volatile. Like, very infantile in strange ways.

I don't really like to throw around the term narcissist because I think the meaning has kind of become diluted. Like everyone really uses it. But like in a very classical sense, like he, his emotional capacity was so low and like so immature that really like it was all about him. And I don't think he was capable of empathy. I mean, very like psychopathic, sociopathic or like narcissistic in. classical terms, I would say. But there were always, I mean, he was just a freak. Like he, he would like blow up over like tiny things. There would be like in over the years like my sister became more outspoken and almost like angry over the years and would get into these like really

big fights with him. At this point, so I was nine in the second rape and she was getting older like 11. She started middle school. I think in sixth grade, she came out as a lesbian and told my father. And there was just this crazy fight I remember, which is so weird to look back on. But he was like taunting her and basically saying, you're only a lesbian because of me. And I'm only sharing that because it's really weird to look back on because there was so much secrecy around this. But I think he, and this is why it feels really sick. And like I think he knew, like so many abusers do. Like they barely even try to hide it because they know how easy it is to deny it.

So it's almost like out in the open. Like in his like audacity to like be like you're only a lesbian because of me, it was really implying like because of what I did to you. He was very, very homophobic and just like, I don't know, very strange. But I remember that like blowout fight. She would sometimes like, you know, try to fight back, curse at him. There were times where I would watch him like grab her and like she'd be kicking and screaming and like he'd like put his hand. over her mouth and like drag her into the bathroom and with like a bar of soap like wash her mouth out with soap. So there were a lot of like really scary scenes like that that I witnessed that

kind of just made me small. Like my way of like surviving that situation was to just try to become as small as possible and like just count down the hours any weekend I was there. My sister really did try fighting back for some amount of time. Meanwhile, like, he's very charming, like, with his fiancé and they end up getting married. She ends up getting pregnant. And, oh, I will also say that that time I was raped in her townhouse, literally in her bed when she wasn't home, that left me with a lot of guilt because, like he's saying,

don't ever let a man do this to you until you're married. And in my mind, I'm like, he's about to marry this woman. I'm like, is he cheating on her with his own daughter? And there was a sense that it was my fault. But then I, like, the ways a child would rationalize it, like, oh, but they're not married yet technically. So it was just crazy. But they end up getting married.

She gets pregnant. And I was just terrified. Like, at this point, I'm 10 years old. And I just can't bear the thought of him and getting another daughter to abuse. And so I felt so relieved when we found out that he was going to be a boy. And that really, like, yeah, I was excited, I guess, of like, oh, okay, like, they're starting their own family.

Like, maybe they can have something to focus on and he'll kind of chill out with this constant, like, the constant court case legal battle thing, I think was definitely a way of, like, him not being able to let my mother go and, like, wanting to torture her, essentially. But, yeah, while my stepmother was pregnant, there was another evening where we were alone in her townhouse once again. And it was just me and my father in the room, in the kitchen. And out of nowhere, total shock to me out of nowhere, he, like, says, it's time for kissing lessons. And, like, I need to teach you how to kiss for your future husband.

And at that point, like, I had already stood up for myself with the rape. But this was, like, a little more, like, it was weird for sure. And I was like, I don't think this is normal, but he framed it as something almost says like, oh, this might be something all parents do to their kids, like teaching you how to ride a bike. Like, all parents teach their kids how to kiss. So he just said, like, just stay still. Just stay still. And I'll show you. And I'm frozen in the middle of her kitchen.

And he just, like, what I understand this to be now is mouth rape because he just shoves his tongue in my mouth. mouth, not a kiss at all. He just darts around like every surface. It was assault. Um, and disgusting. Um, because, and then he stops like after, I don't know how long and grins and tells me I'm a good kisser and just like goes off and does this thing. Like, nothing ever happened. Like, it was sick, like power play. It was disgusting. And I think he really got off on like that feeling. feeling of power for sure, but I was left feeling after that far more violated than the rapes, because in a sense, there was like a way I could split off from my body and really dissociate in the other times. But this was like, like my face was the most, like when you think of who you

are, you kind of think of your face. There's this like personal, it feels like the most personal part of me at the very least. And like, I just felt gross. I wanted to crawl out of my skin. And And also I was really holding on to my first kiss. That was something as a little girl that was really hyped up. And I felt I felt tainted and just really like defiled. Like there was something really gross about me afterwards. And I really wished I could tell my mother, but things had gone on like so far. Like I didn't know where to begin.

There were these feelings that like maybe I would get blamed for it because at that point I was living with so much shame that it really had like almost become a part of me. Like I'd started blaming myself definitely. And I don't know, it was heartbreaking. I had such good friends as a child, but I felt like keeping secrets from them was really like, you know, a roadblock in my relationships. But anyway, that was disturbing because I was disturbing. at that point, they were married. And that definitely left me with this feeling of, like, he's, quote, cheating. And then there was a blowout fight between them, him and his fiancee, where she, like,

they got into some crazy fight and he actually, like, threw her phone and broke it. Sorry, not fiancé. They were married at this point. He threw her phone and broke it. And she, they didn't talk for, like, a while. But she was two weeks away from giving birth. And so she filed a police report and everything against him because he really displayed, like, abuse in these subtle ways towards everyone, like, even his partners. But she ended up, like, not going through with pressing charges because she was, like, two weeks away from giving birth.

And she decided to just give it a chance after he, like, broke her phone and stuff. But anyway, oh, I. should actually share that, like, I ended up seeing the little girl who was raped with me. Because, like I said, my dad really, like, glossed or, like, he let it blow over the thing that happened. And they kept up their relationship. And throughout all this time, like, every few months, she would come and visit. And so we kept up our relationship. And then she gives birth, and I get a little brother who really did make the weekends somewhat better because, like, I had this sweet other little kid to be around.

And then one, I will just share that one evening, sometimes my father got like Tuesday night dinner visitations. And one evening, like, and my sister had some sort of like extracurricular, like soccer or something. my father picks her up, or he picks me up from school, and randomly drives me to this high school swim practice in an indoor pool. And he tells me, we're tracking down your sister. And it's not my other sister. It's a sister from a previous marriage that he had abandoned when she was eight years old. So he was married once before my mother and they had a kid. And you didn't know up until that

moment. I heard like very vague talk about her. But I didn't really understand the story. Anytime I asked, he shut it down. And then out of nowhere, he's like, we're going to go find your sister. Even though he was not her legal dad anymore, he gave her up like five, no, no, no, like at that point, like seven years prior. It had been seven years since I'd seen her. And he's like, we're going to go track her down because he was Googling her and confirmed that she was on this high school swim team. And he found out when the swim practice was. And he decided that he would show up at her swim practice with me. And so I just remember that being like a really, really cryptic episode because all I dream about at that point was finally getting away from my father. It was like that girl had what I wanted.

Like he had like given her up. He left her life. But then there was a sense that like there's no escaping because he's a stalker. He's going to like, he can't let anything go. So for whatever divine intervention, she actually wasn't there that day. And then we like moved on. But that ties into something else, which I'll explain later. But after that, shortly after, like, okay, actually a few years passed, and by this time, I'm 13 years old. And on a weekend visitation, the little girl that I'll refer to her as M, she's there this weekend, her family's visiting. She's eight years old at this point. My older sister's there too. My new little brother's there's there. I'll just explain quickly.

This was the last weekend I ever saw him in my life. Because there was some sort of like, he would always go into these like screaming matches. He'd throw like these weird tantrums. And I can't even remember what happened, but we were like out to ice cream with the other family. We get back in the car. He is just really like,

angry about something. And at that point, my sister, who used to be the one who would like stand up and fight back, she was like really, I think, burnt out, exhausted, terrified and just kind of like done. Like docile just wouldn't say a thing. And I was in my, I was 13. So I think I was feeling emboldened and I was in my like fighting back phase. And so in whatever argument this was, I started like standing up. It wasn't even standing up for myself. He was just yelling. And what I told him was like, stop yelling. You're stressing out the baby who was like in the car seat.

And he flipped out and was like, don't teach me or don't try to tell me how to parent. And it became this, he started like kind of grabbing me and I started trying to like flailing get away from him. And it was like a really intense fight happening like in the car. My stepmom was driving and him and I. in the back seat. My sister was in passenger. And then he yells to like pull over the car. And he, we pull over the car on the side of like this rural highway in Virginia. And he like yanks me out of the car in broad daylight public on the side of the highway. And, um,

pulls down my pants and underwear. And, um, and, um, pulls down my pants and underwear. And, and starts like spanking me like uncontrollably, like just in the middle of everything. And it was shocking and I was frozen. And my sister who has like a cell phone at this point jumps out of the car and immediately starts trying to film it happening because at this point like we are desperate to get away from him. We know there's this court case happening. We're familiar with like the legal logistics and we're like maybe if we feel

film. She was doing the really, like, the right thing. Like, maybe I can finally get some evidence of abuse to free us. And my stepmother, like, starts trying to, like, wrestle the phone out of her grip as she's trying to film it. And they're, like, fighting over the phone while he's spanking me until she, like, rips the phone out of her and, like, the phone goes flying. her phone breaks, which is really crazy to look back at because, like, just three years prior, this woman, my stepmother, had almost left my father after he broke her phone. And then she basically became his accomplice and was just like, they had a kid together. She was just standing by as, like, this happened.

And he definitely manipulated her in, like, some really hardcore ways and, like, told her. and, like, told her, like, you know, she had witnessed the very first cry for help when my sister screamed, like, you raped me. Yeah. And I think she really, like, believed his lies about, like, oh, their mother's just, like, brainwashing them. So anyway, after that, like, immediate bruising, like, really immediate bruising on my arm from him, like, tugging me out. And all over my butt. And, like, it was, um, like in that moment, I realized I would be free because I really, all these years, like, I learned that like, like, the abuse had to leave bruises if anyone was ever going to, like, take it seriously.

Yeah, like that was your proof, which is so sad because, you know, like you just were saying in your mind, it was like, if you can't see it, then it's not happening technically. It's like what people would assume. And that's kind of what you were showed because, you know, when it was spoken out, it was ignored. Exactly. Yeah. And so then, like, right in the aftermath, it was so weird. We started, like, going on this hike together. Like, he started, like, taking us on this little walk up a mountain in Virginia. And immediately, it was, like, immediately he knew what was up and, like, what the consequences of this would be.

because he started like negotiating with us. Like if you, if I don't ever need a paid child support again, I'll let you guys go basically. Like, I think he knew he was, he would get his parental rights taken away. So he started kind of like,

he, again, like very narcissistic. Like he didn't give a shit about us. It was kind of like we were tools to punish our mom. He cared a lot about money, and it really was like he was trying to sell us, which was crazy. But that evening, like, oh, God, we got back to my mom's house, like, really late. I tell her what happens. We have to end up going to the emergency room. And then then I have to file a police report and all these things.

And I take a few days off school, but then I go back to school. but then I go back to school, like, nothing happened, basically. And meanwhile, like, the police report is filed. Like, the court case between them has been going on all this time, and they both have had lawyers. So they end up coming to some agreement, like some mitigation outside of, like, court, where they just agreed, like, he won't have to keep paying child support,

but he's going to give up his legal rights, as our father. And in order for that to be allowed legally, the kids have to have someone else to adopt. So my stepfather ended up adopting us and becoming our new legal dad. And at that point, our last name changed. So it was Kelsey Owen, William Owen being my rapist, former dad. And then my stepfather adopted me. My last name changed to Kelsey Zazanis. And And at this point, your mom and your stepdad still didn't know about the rape. Not at all. Not at all.

Not at all. Yeah. Of the physical abuse. Exactly. Okay. And I have one other question that I meant to ask before. When, and you might not know the answer, but do you think when he was recording you and the little girl, do you think he was keeping that for himself?

Or do you think that he was sharing that with anyone else? So there's really no way for me to know. Okay. I'm really not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if he, like, you know, was doing it for some sort of personal trophy type thing. Right. But I also wouldn't be surprised if he was distributing it because child pornography is like a multi-billion dollar industry. I was going to say, especially when you mentioned, like, how, like, the money aspect. It's like, right.

Yeah. What do you really know of what he was doing with it? Exactly. And he, yeah, he was so obsessed with money. worst with someone like that. Yeah, for sure. But to this day, like, I don't know if I have those, if those are circulating of me. Like, there's really no way. But, yeah, after that, he got his parental rights taken away. I never saw him again. And I just like, even to this day. To this day, never saw him again. And you were 13? I was 13. Yeah. But there was, like, one final goodbye,

which was really weird. It was like for him to agree to this. He was like, I just, just need to be able to say bye to them one more time. It was like, I don't know. It was gross. But like I had to kind of go along with it because I was getting my freedom in exchange for that. So then I started high school with a new last name. And I didn't go to therapy. I never talked about it.

It was just kind of like in the past. And I tried to like build like a good new life for myself. I'll try to tell the rest, like, fairly quickly, but I instantly became anorexic. And, like, my entire, like, year 14, age 14, I, like, I developed, like, a lot of disordered eating habits and just, like, like, ultimately the way I view it, like, similar to the OCD symptoms. It was, like, my way of coping and my way of trying. to gain some sort of control to make life feel manageable after everything I'd been through.

And on a deeper level, like, my body had been invaded so many times that I learned early on that I had no bodily autonomy, like that my body didn't belong to me. And there were these, like, in at least, like, controlling what I ate and what went into my body. Like, it was literally, like, my way of trying to reclaim my body. Like, before. I had no control over what literally went in my body, like in terms of him entering me. And so controlling what foods I ate and what I put into my body, I think really was a response to that. So meanwhile, through all of this, I'm still, like, really thinking of myself as like, oh, I'm really anxious. I have OCD.

Like, I'm seeking, like, psychiatric help. and I get really depressed. And so I just think I have depression and all of that. But like I was trying to be a normal teenager. And at this point, I was repressing everything. Like, everything was wiped from my memory. And that was really my way of functioning. And I wish I could, like, really describe how it worked.

But it was really almost like snap of the fingers and it's gone. Like after that rape, it's gone. after the kissing lessons mouth rape, I just, the next day, it's gone. Like, it was that level of like compartmentalization. And, you know, by the time I'm like 14, 15, I get my first boyfriend and my first kiss, quote unquote, which like I had repressed the previous thing. So I really, like, wanted to believe that I was having these new experiences. and eventually, like, my high school boyfriend and I, like, it's spring break and I have him

over at my house and we're, like, making out and start kind of, like, fooling around. And we didn't have sex or anything like that, but, like, I think, I mean, he fingered me. And I was just very uncomfortable with, like, that kind of sexuality, I would say. but like, and this is a problem that continued as it does for like a lot of survivors. But on it on a even more extreme level, I had no feeling in my genitals. Like I was actually completely numb. And after the abuse, like as a child, I never looked there. I never touched there.

It was like I was pretending my private parts did not exist. I wanted nothing to do with it. And that boyfriend was like the first time I was like kind of reacquainted with the fact that that's like something I have. And but I didn't feel anything. Like it was like I truly believe my body like had after those like really traumatic experiences like shut down all sensation. Because then when I ended up going to college eventually and like continued exploring in that way, I was completely numb, sensationalist, all these things. And I went to college.

I moved all the way to California because I really wanted to, like, get as far away from my past as possible. And, yeah, I found a lot of great friends. Like, I was really trying my best to, like, start this new life for myself. But, like, I was haunted by, like, really severe. quote, symptoms of like anxiety, depression, like what I now conceptualize it after really learning about nervous system science and stuff like that, like my body, it was taking an immense amounts of survival energy to keep everything repressed. And like these symptoms were really like communication from my inner self, like trying to make certain truths known. And eventually,

after my first year of college, I became very depressed and honestly reached a point where, like, there were moments where I wanted to die, which was something I had never thought about seriously. And, oh, shoot, I forgot an important part of the story. My sister, who had threatened me with suicide when I was like six and after I'd witnessed the rape, throughout her whole psychiatric journey, she actually, like, tried killing herself multiple times throughout childhood. Like the first time was, like, when she was 10 years old, she, like, came out of the school bathroom and basically, like, told one of the teachers that she tried to hang herself in the bathroom and then got hospitalized. So that explains why on a lot of weekends, I ended up being alone with my father because, like, there were multiple suicide attempts where she would end up, like, in the children's hospital. So anyway, I was just, that was a different level of, like, crazy for me because the original threat was, like, if you tell anyone I'm going to kill myself.

And I kept her secret thinking it would be saving her life. But then she spent all of childhood, like, still trying to kill herself anyway, which was like really, it was just really terrifying for me. But anyway, by the time I was in college, then for the first time in my life, like I started feeling these really intense, like, almost suicidal ideation. And I was concerned for myself. And I think that kind of pushed me into like almost a state of. surrender because I had been in this whole psychiatry thing. And at that point, I was also starting to question the validity of this framework for viewing like the whole mental illness framework and the DSM. Like, I was really starting to question like how like valid those even were. And so at that

point, I think I was ready to, like, know the truth and like clockwork. Like, it was like divine timing. Like, I started getting flashbacks after a decade of repression of the rape. It started with, I was going about my day and I got this like scene of like a shower, like a shower head, like water rushing down and this little girl. And at first I thought the, little girl was me because she was another little blonde girl. But as the scene started like coming into focus, I realized it was the, I was getting flashbacks of the original rape with the little girl. And I remembered who she was because after the last time I saw her at 13, at that point it had been six years. And I totally forgot who she was because I just didn't think of

my past at all anymore. And so that started coming back to me, like, gradually the memories, like, clarified. And with each flashback came, like, a physical flashback. Like, I felt it. It wasn't just, like, intellectual, like, I'm remembering this. It was, like, my whole body, I could feel, I could feel the rape in my genitalia, which also makes sense to, as to why I was really not. And so, I was really numbing out that part for so long. But basically, I call my mom. Like, I tell her what's happening. Like, for the first time, I tell her the truth.

And she believes me immediately. But she doesn't seem, like, very surprised. And I also tell her what I remember about my sister being raped. And how old were you? I was 19. Okay. 19, yeah. Now, and you might get to this point.

I know that you mentioned that your mom didn't seem surprised. Did she end up saying that she ever had weird experiences with your dad, like her personally? She was never raped by him, but he did hit her a few times, which was why they ended up divorcing. Okay. But yeah, she, like, I think she wasn't surprised because it gave her, like, finally gave her an answer as to, like, why us kids were that level terrified. Like, she always thought, like, oh, it's just because he's mean. He has a temper. She yells was like an answer to everything.

And so at that point, I'm living in California. I don't have a car or anything like that. She says, like, we need to get you a trauma therapist. So I end up, like, making an appointment with the therapist, like, the only therapist walking distance from my house. before I get into that, I will say when my memories were coming back, it was like almost, I mean, I was completely sober, but this was like psychedelic level of like expansion. Like the way I had spent my whole life hiding this from myself and like living in this like with my memory. all fragmented, like, it really felt like a wholeness I had been kind of returned to me. And, like, my faith in life was, like, entirely restored.

It was, like, a 180. Like, before that, I was on the verge of, like, losing all hope. And then suddenly, like, when my memories came back, what also came back was the my recollection of the original kind of prayer or communication with angels that kind of precipitated all of the original repression and forgetting. And at that time, when I was eight, I had that vision flashed to the future of like, this is where you'll be when you're ready to remember. and it was like there I was. When I was 19, I was living in this really, like, perfect house with three other women, roommates, all so supportive. It was like the perfect conditions to just, like, feel really safe as I, like, I was ready to face all of this. And so I can, I can't describe, like, this memory retrieval process as anything short of, like, a spiritual awakening because,

immediately, I felt like, and my spirituality has evolved since then, but I felt this almost like confirmation that like God is real. Because I really felt like I was saved in these miraculous ways. But, you know, again, to anyone listening, like, this can be explained in a lot of ways. But that, like, the very day that I remembered, that my flashbacks came back and I remembered who am the little girl who was raped with me was. I go up to my bedroom in that house where I live when I'm 19, and I see on the side of my bed in like a little dish that my roommate shared because we share a bedroom, I see this little ornament.

And it had like the ornament that I originally took because I never wanted to forget her. immediately after I remembered who she was, the ornament reappeared. And I hadn't seen it in over 10 years. But it has like her name written on it. It has the year that she was born. So you found this ornament. In my house in California. Thousands of miles away from where I grew up, immediately the day my memory

returned. And was it in your belongings or the, what are your roommate's belongings? It was in this dish we shared between our beds where we just put random things and it just appeared. And I freaked out because the timing was like very miraculous. It was the instant I remembered her, the ornament came back to me. I freaked out and I asked my roommate, huh? I said it gives me chills. It's crazy. I know. And so I asked my roommate, like, I freaked out. I was like, have you ever seen this? Like, why is this here? And she was like, no, I've never seen this. I asked all my roommates. I was like, what the heck. I even, like, texted the girl who lived there right before me. And I was like, have you ever seen this? Because like, again, like, I, of course, I was having this kind of spiritual awakening where I had renewed faith. But this was something unexplainable because I had not seen this since I was a child. thousands of miles away. So I was like, did this just magically appear? Like, I wanted some sort of logical answer. And I didn't find one. And I even talked to, I even told my mom about this because I was like, this is a miracle. Like, it almost felt like some sort of telekinesis, like a magically

moving object. And my mother, like, it was very, she's very rational and she's not really spiritual at all. So she was like, well, Kelsey, like, sometimes you used to, like, walk in your sleep as a kid. Maybe you, like, packed this in your sleep, you know? Like, maybe there was some chance that I was secret, even as I was repressing my memories, I was secretly. But even if that was, even if that was the case, it's still the fact that it came to you and you noticed it again at that time of, like, remembering all of these things. Yeah. It was just shocking.

It's clear that no matter what, that was the timing for everything to kind of click for you. Yeah. And so I was amazing. It was like my eight-year-old self had, it wasn't like I was like, like, when I originally stole it, it didn't even feel like my choice. It was just like something I knew I had to do to remember her. And it was like, this was the physical object I needed to, like, stay tethered to the reality that, like, this is real. This happened.

Like, this is a physical piece of evidence. Because I really, you know, in situations like that, you don't have any evidence. So, immediately when I, like, when I remembered her, the first thing I wanted to do was reach out or find her, make sure she was okay. So I searched for her on Facebook. And I found a profile. And I wasn't going to do anything crazy. I wasn't going to tell her. Like for her to be abused at three years old,

it was also likely that she had no memory of it. But I just wanted to make sure she was doing okay. And so I messaged her on Facebook saying like, hi, M, this is Kelsey. I'm not sure if you remember me. But like, I just wanted to see how you're doing. And just like maybe a day or two later, she got back to me very quickly.

She was like, oh my God, Kelsey, like, I'm so happy to hear from you. I actually have been wanting to, like, find you for so long. Last year, I was having dreams about you every single night. And so I asked my dad to help me find you, and we found your Instagram. So I have been following you. I made this post about you. which is like this is the crazy part because I was shocked and I look on Instagram. She tells me what her handle is.

And then I see that two years before she had tagged me in a photo of her and me as kids with the caption that was like, Dear Kelsey, this is the kid who looked up to you back then and still looks up to you today. like basically just sharing this like love. It was so sweet. But it was also kind of jarring because it had been years. And she was still holding on to this memory of me. Her subconscious was really like drilling in like the importance of like me as a figure in her life where to the extent that she was having a recurring dream about me and then tracked me down.

and then wanted to get my attention by like tagging me in this post and somehow I missed it. But when she did tell me her handle or her Instagram handle, I was like, oh my God, because I saw that there was this random kid that followed me on Instagram over the years who was always liking my photos. And somehow I just never clicked on her. But like I recognized it. But somehow like that was shielded from me. But I realized. You are ready for it. Yeah. And so. So we ended up chatting a bit over Facebook for a little, and it was actually really hard for me because she was just so sweet, and she really wanted a connection.

And I did too, but it was really hard for me to be, like, hiding this reality from her. And so I tracked on her mother's phone number, and I tried to, I called her. And in the most sensitive way possible, I told her what happened and what I remembered. And her mother did not want to believe it. And her, you know, like, I guess her daughter was fine enough to, like, not be freaked out. even though I know that there were some concerning things in her behavior as a kid. But her mom didn't want to believe it. And she said to me on the phone, like, you were on pills back then, like, referring to the

psychiatry thing. And like, maybe there was some chance that that meant I was crazy and unreliable. Even though the reality is I got put on those pills because I had witnessed rape and was raped. So it was really ironic and really sex. But after that point, I was kind of like, I did all I could do. So did the mom say something to the daughter? No. Never did.

And you never did. And I never did. But she still follows me on Instagram. And I mean, I've reached a point where I'm very outspoken about this. But I've never told her. Have you ever had this like, like how you said that when you called the mom, you kind of approached it in a very sensitive way. Have you ever thought about or wanted to kind of.

of message her and just be like, I want to talk to you, like, but not to bring up, you know, anything, I guess, which it's like kind of impossible, not to, but like, I don't want to put a wrench in your life, but, you know, or you just don't feel ready to do that yet with her. Well, I tried. I mean, the way she shut me down made it seem very much so, like she wasn't open to it. But this was the mom or the, or the, um. Oh, the mom. Oh, you're asking if I have, would consider talking to the girl. So in terms of like whether I would ever tell her. So the reason I reached out to her mother was because at that point, she was only 14. So she was underage and I definitely

would not have wanted to like tell her that. Yeah. But I wanted to like be responsible and make sure her mother knew. But right now she's like 23 and it's definitely something that crosses my mind. like what's the responsible thing to do. So I definitely want to be like at least a figure that she can turn to in the future if she needs me. But that kind of brings me to the fact that as I started grappling with the memory retrieval and stuff like that, I found a trauma therapist. And at this point, I had never met anyone who was sexually abused. I really didn't know that was a thing. Like, I didn't, I, I had no real exposure to incest or child rape to really, like, like, when my memories came back, it almost felt like, am I the only person this has ever happened to?

He felt like alone. Yeah, I didn't know how common it was, but a wild coincidence or synchronicity was that when I finally saw this trauma therapist, I, I should. show up to her office. I'm like, she's this very old lady. And her office is full of these little, like, um, religious quotes. And I was kind of like, huh. But I, I felt this like intense, like, deja vu, almost like the feeling of being at the, like, right place at the right time as I walk in. And, and I just tell, I was really nervous, but I told her everything of what was happening. my memory is coming back. And she says to me, my father did the same to me.

And I didn't remember until I was in my 40s. Wow. Yeah. And so she said, like, I used to work as a pharmacist. And then once I remembered, I went back to school to become a therapist. And so that kind of was the beginning of my entry into, like, this world of really diving deep and learning about incest, like the reality of incest and the reality of memory repression and just how common it was. But this woman, like, it really felt like a miracle that like the first

therapist I called walking distance from my house, like, it was, she was the person I needed because I needed someone. Like, it's one thing to like try to support someone through that, but it's another, it's a different level of being with someone who experienced it. Because they truly understand. It's not just from an educational standpoint. It's like the education plus the true experience that I think makes it so much more relatable. Yeah. And so basically, I'll try to wrap it up because we don't have that much more time.

But like that became a wild journey. She told me basically like people remember when they're ready to remember. And at this point, my former sister. was still heavily repressing all of it. And I wish I had more time to go into details, but she ended up transitioning around the same time into a man. And around the same time that you kind of started getting into. I began remembering everything.

So my sister was undergoing transition and is now my brother named Noah. So I will, it won't even be that complicated, but I'm going to refer to him as Noah now. So I go home like on the next break from school and visit my mom and him. And my mom kind of fills him in like keep puts my mom like brings him in the loop of like what's happening. But I kind of warned my mom based on what my therapist told me. I warned her like people remember when they're ready. And my therapist told me like don't try to tell your brother.

wait for him to remember in his own time. And so I just told my mom that, like, what happened to my brother, but I'm not going to, like, tell him. And my mom told him, like, Kelsey's remembering being raped by your dad, but nothing about you were raped too. So that period when I'm home, my brother is screaming in his sleep every single night waking up screaming. And he tells my mom that he's having nightmares of being raped by her dad. But his level of repression and denial and dissociation is like so deep that he's just explaining it like, oh, oh my God, like poor Kelsey. I just feel so bad for Kelsey that I'm having these dreams without really like wanting to

confront that like these aren't just nightmares. These are actual flashbacks that he's having. But my mother was so concerned for him that she kind of asks him one night or kind of tells him one night, like, suggests like Kelsey says, this might have happened to you too. And he freaks out. He flips out. He like screamed at me. It was like really insane, really crazy. And it's sad too because I don't think we even have a, and maybe, you know, professionals have.

have a better understanding of this, but even the age difference between you guys of it happening, you know, I feel like could kind of play a role or a part in like the memories are kind of, you know what I mean? Well, I should clarify, it happened to him when he was eight and I was six witnessing it. And then it happened to me when I was eight. So it did, it was like my father chose eight years old to begin for both of us, if that makes sense. Yeah.

But that, um, that was really intense. Like my brother, I should say, like throughout all of his instability in life, like he treated me very chaotically, very poorly, which really like hurt after like, I thought we were kind of in the solidarity together. But I had good friends in California and I spent the next portion of my life really diving deep into the technicalities of trauma healing. And I became.

Like, like, when my memories came back, all of the psychiatric framework that I used to use to conceptualize my suffering, it vanished because suddenly each and every behavior and each detail of my life made perfect sense, given what I had gone through. And so whatever, quote, mental illness I thought I had, like, was gone. Retrieving my memories, like, really erased any thought I had that I might ever have had a mental illness. And really, like, all of everything I had gone through was, like, a brilliant survival response from my body to survive, like, unbelievable circumstances. That was how I viewed, like, everything my brother had gone through as well. And so I got off all medication, like, responsible. and gradually. And that really left me with, I mean, the levels of rage in like, like, peeling back

the layers of the damage done, like, once I was in adulthood, because I won't go into it, but like, the trauma, the effect on me physically, like, and on my sex life and on my relationships. And, like, I've been deeply haunted by this. And it's been 10 years now since I. since my memories came back. But it's been a journey and I've done a great job, in my opinion, like really divesting from that psychiatric framework and reclaiming like my story.

So I got off the medication. I got really into like critiquing psychiatry because honestly I do think in a lot of cases, especially when they're medicating children, like it can be used as a tool of, repression that really serves to like perpetuate these cycles of abuse when you individualize the when you individualize the problem and in and ask these questions of like what's wrong with you like asking a child like what's wrong with this child when you should really be asking what happened to you but anyway the rest of the 10 years it's been wild my brother, it's very telling. He's never not once has he asked me about this. He knows that I've

been like dealing with this all on my own for the last decade. And he hasn't asked me about it once. So I really did not have any support, but I began writing prolifically like on substack. And it'll, we'll do a link. But my substack is cancelme.com. And I began to writing in detail about all of my experiences and gaining a lot of readers. And over the years, just being so open about the story, it has been shocking. Like, I've met hundreds of other people with nearly like identical experiences. And I mean, it's just absolutely wild, how common it is. And the statistic is one in four. And a lot of people do not want to believe that. But in reality, like the silencing and the secrecy is so thick that people don't talk about it.

It makes people more uncomfortable to have to hear it and work through it and deal with it. And I think that's why people rather just be like, oh, no, that's not true. Exactly. They like, because it's sick. It's obviously sick. It's stomach turning, everything else in between that, you know, you could list off. but it's easier for people to tune it out. And I think, like you said, that's why so many people have this.

It's like it's such a taboo subject, which like obviously so. It's horrible. It's disgusting. But it needs to be spoken about because like you said, the more people that know about it and talk about it, the more children can heal from it, you know? Yeah. And there are so many like different. different factors that really like uphold this on a societal level because it's like way beyond

individual. Like it's almost just the there are so many structural factors that like prevent us from really grappling with this. But to try to wrap it up, I will say that like writing and like speaking out about it and finding other people who like were really grateful for that like kind of for the way I was like speaking about it. It really, it really helped. It's been quite a journey to try to recover from this. But the writing, the writing, like the getting the truth out was so important. And like I said, started gaining a following for the writing. And this year specifically, it started taking off. And I started writing this book, which is this book right here. And it's a short book of 10 essays. And I was planning on, like, publishing it because I started mostly, the writing was

mostly on substack. And lastly, about six months ago, out of nowhere. And at this point, I haven't seen my father in 15 years. And out of nowhere, and I don't talk to my mother much because, like, there are, which I haven't gone into, but there are a lot of issues on her end. And essentially, I just haven't felt a lot of familial support or protection. I felt very alone in this process, but I received a call from her from my mom out of nowhere this last year. And she was basically telling me that my father's sister, my aunt, called her just like that same morning. And she was like, hey, so I need to tell you what your aunt just told me.

Yesterday, Bill, my rapist, William Owen, Bill showed up at your aunt's house in Tennessee, unexpected, uninvited. They are not even on good terms. He's just very impulsive and chaotic. And he showed up at her house. to announce that he has been, basically, it's come to my attention that Kelsey has been writing about me. And I've read Kelsey's writing. So basically, I haven't seen the man in 15 years, but along the same lines of him stalking his former child, he has been Googling me in the same way, stalking me online. he's been reading all of my writing about him.

And so as my writing started taking off and as I began writing more, he shows up to his sister's house and says, like, I've been reading Kelsey's writing and these horrible allegations against me. And he is incredibly manipulative. So he knows that he can't deny it completely. So the angle that he chose to take was like, I don't doubt that it happened to her, but it must have been her stepfather. So he blamed it on my stepfather, which was very strategic because actually throughout childhood

as he was raping us, he was also saying things like, is your stepfather touching you? So there's a lot to unpack there, but it was very terrifying because there was this realization of like he's watching me still. And I felt really violated too because that's like a very, it's like a very personal and intimate thing of mine. Right, it's a way for you to heal and connect with other victims.

Yeah, and it's also kind of showed that he's still trying to have this sort of ownership and even like intimidate me through a grapevine basically. Like I'm not sure how premeditated it was, but it basically sent me the message of like, I'm watching you.

Question. Do you have a relationship with his, with your other brother? His, no. So unfortunately, like when he got his parental rights taken away when I was 13, it meant I could never see my younger brother again. Is he still with that woman? Yeah, exactly. So he grew up.

Like to this day, they're still together. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So he grew up an only child with them. And so last time I saw him, he was three years old. Wow. And I similarly to, which is just crazy the way these patterns repeat,

but the three-year-old girl who I witnessed, who ended up having dreams about me repeatedly, like after I stopped seeing my brother, I would always dream about him too. Like, just really worrying. And then similar to that girl, like, I definitely hope to be there for him in the future and share the truth with him if he is receptive,

but I just really hope that, like, the damage isn't too far. Like, I really hope that he, you know, finds a way to individuate and like find freedom from that family dysfunction. I think too, like you mentioned, and I honestly didn't think about when asking you if you have or would want to reach out and kind of, you know, talk to M now. But like what your therapist said of kind of like letting people come to those memories in their own time, you know, and come to you if they decide to.

It takes the responsibility and the pressure off of you of trying to like, I mean, just heal everybody and give everybody these answers, but more so to know, like, if and when they come to that realization on their own, you're there and you're open to help if that's what they want. Yeah.

And I have, like, been burdened by feeling like, okay, I have the weight of the world on my shoulders almost as, like, the keeper of the memory keeper, like the person who's holding this.

And I, like, I do feel that burden. and heavily, but, and I think that has informed a lot of why I've made myself so outspoken on this topic, like, publicly, because even, because that signals that, like, I'm a person, like, I'm a public figure who talks about child rape and incest, which means, like, this is, it signals to everyone I'm willing to talk about this, whereas, like, if I was silent about it, like my brother, that's not an invitation for them to confide in me. So I think that's part of

why I chose that. Do you and your brother have a relationship today or not really? So I'd love to get into that because after I found out about my father stalking me and reading my writing, I was in the process of writing this book and it really, it really like emboldened me to just like go through with it. So this book, if anyone wants it, Kelseyzazanis.com called father's daughter. And it felt really important for me to just put it in print like forever. Yeah.

Because after all these years, he's still denying it. And that was like deeply enraging to me because of how much effort it took to face the truth at all. And then to still face this person. hook from you for, you know, a time of your life. And I think that there is something amazing and healing and kind of taking that power back. But there is a portion of your life that it does take. Oh, for sure. And it causes these just stunts in different areas. You know, until you're, you come to that kind of full circle moment of healing, you know, it's kind of like you're just living in this, like, haze. Yeah. So as for my brother before, because it's interesting, like, there,

there's a lot of sensitivity there because I have to recognize that he is living in a totally different reality from me. Like not only is he repressing all of our childhood memories, but like he's changed his name. He's changed his gender. He started an entirely new life, like, with this entirely new sense of self that has nothing to do with like his former life as a little girl being raped. So it's so far removed. He's like distanced himself as far as much as possible. And so So before. Does he talk to your dad? Not at all.

Okay. Got it. But they do have a strange, I don't know. I understand. I do believe he was raped potentially many times. He had a different disposition than me. I don't know if he ever like tried to stand up for himself. He shouldn't have had to, but all of these things.

I just knew. I was writing about very sensitive things. But in order to heal, I felt like, you know, secrets make you sick. It's like a cliche, but it's true. because I don't have time to go into it, but like we both, my brother and I started facing really intense chronic illness. And it's really that physical toll of the rape. It stores in the body. Yeah.

And living through in survival mode, chronic freeze response all those years. We both have hypermobile Ellers Danlos syndrome, which I'm currently doing a lot of research around. And like if anyone goes to my socials, that will explain it more. Yeah, and I'll link everything to as well. Great, yeah, because there's like a very high correlation between that and surviving child sexual abuse. But anyway, yeah, it's very sensitive, the stuff I was writing about and especially, so yeah, I wanted it to put the truth out because I really was like, secrets made me sick. and I need to just let the full truth out if I want to heal. And so the writing was very detailed and it did, as I spoke about in this interview,

like I'm writing in the past tense. My brother was once my sister. I have to write about him as my sister. And even though I want to respect people's privacy, what I saw, what I witnessed was part of my story. And so I needed to offload that. And so I did write about him being raped. And before I published the book, I wanted to reach out to him.

And I also, after years of healing from what my father did, this past year, I started feeling really a lot of weight, like kind of being kept up at night by my brother, former sister's original threat of suicide. Because it's going to sound weird, but before I was ever raped, really the original trauma was, A, what I was. A, what I saw, but more so being threatened into silence by him, which is sad because a lot of people say trauma is actually not the violence that happens to you. It's the absence of an empathetic witness because children who are abused but then afterwards have someone to confide in and tell the truth to and support them through the aftermath end up not being anywhere near us. traumatized as those children that keep secrets. And so the original trauma really was being threatened into secrecy. And so he was a child. He was a little girl who didn't know any better at that time and who was threatened by my father. So the threat was passed down. And all that being said, my sister was not to blame by any means. But the damage was really thick. And after a decade, of like shielding my brother from the truth. Like out of knowing that he's fragile and has a lot of

issues to begin with, like I never tried to push it and especially after seeing his reaction. But I reached out and I was just like, hey, our father has been stalking me and reading my writing. and I need to tell you this truth that I've never shared, but, like, I witnessed your rape, and afterwards you told me this. And after 10 years, like, I just felt like I really can't keep this to myself any longer. And, like, I need to let out the truth completely, like, just give it a shot at least. And he never responded to my messages. which was telling.

So then I just went ahead and published the book. And I waited six months and then I checked in again. And I said, hey, it's been six months and you haven't replied. And that's all I said. And he just freaked out. He lost it. He got, he cursed me out and went ballistic and he denied it. which is a lot.

Levels of just, it's really sad because he's told my mother before, like, like responding to what she told him, like Kelsey says it might have happened to you. Over the years, I ended up hearing that he, he's told her like, yeah, I think it might have happened to me. I just don't remember yet. So I thought he was kind of coming to terms. with realizing that, like, this was probably a reality. But when it came to directly addressing this threat of suicide as a kid,

something about that, I think just, I think, almost brought him back to being that terrified child, like, living with so much shame and freaking out. And he just didn't want to believe that was possible. so he just denied it, which to me logically is really frustrating because he has no memories of childhood. They're all repressed, but then he has the nerve to like say, that didn't happen. But it's like you, and I was like, no, you just don't remember it happening similarly to how you don't remember anything else still. And unfortunately, you know, it's like even though that is your family and someone that you were, you know, you saw it happen to and was around,

when it happened to you, it's not your responsibility, you know, to, like, heal everyone else. And it's sad. And it's like we want to, especially when you are, you know, an empathetic person and you are somebody that, I mean, like, especially right now in your life, your goal is to help other victims, you know, and to heal yourself and help, you know, be that kind of, like, support for others. and I think naturally, like, you, you want to help your brother, you know, and, but unfortunately, like, we've been talking about if he's not ready, it's like you kind of, it's like you let that person know you're there and then you just back away. And it's like you, I feel like the best thing to do is just believe in your heart that one day, if and when he comes to that realization, you'll be the person that he goes to. I know. And I, I, like, wish I could, like, over the years I've had so much grace and hope in that way. But I guess it's really stung because it, after all these years, like, it took a lot to, like, reclaim my voice. Yeah. And the truth of this, like, all of this is just pure truth.

And to be able to tell the truth was, like, a lot. And to have someone questioning the validity of the memory is really, like, disturbing, especially when, like, in my eyes, you know, my father might have raped me either way. But, like, my biggest regret in life is, like, you know, that moment where I was threatened into silence. Like, if it had, if that hadn't happened, like, I might have trusted my gut and gone straight to my mom and told, or like what I saw. And then maybe my life would have been totally different. But like in terms of the spirituality and those things, like I try to stay tethered to like this sense of things unfolding.

Like I don't want to say as they should because really none of this should have happened. But in their own like right time I could say. Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. And I mean, it's complicated. It kind of disturbs me because my brother is like technically my only witness. My other only witness was a three-year-old.

The only other person who's endured the same thing. And it's taken me many years, but I want to finally press charges. And in Maryland there's no statute of limitations. So I can really press criminal or civil charges at any point. But like, and I plan to. But my biggest fear, it's really scary. I think it would destroy me if he was found not guilty. Right.

If, like, I don't ever want to see his face again in my life. But, like... But if you're going to, you want it to be where he's serving the time he should. And the thing is, as once again, I think that you'll know and feel within yourself when you're ready to open that chapter. You know what I mean? Like, right now it might be like this, I don't know, because it's... is scary, you know, and I think at any point it'll be scary. But I feel like you'll come to a point where you're like, yeah, it's scary, but I rather try than not. So I think it's too, it's just like

you said, it's giving yourself that grace and that time of like one step at a time. Like right now, we're in our healing. Let's deal with this. And then whether it's in six months, one year, five years, you know, whenever you're in that next chapter and that next journey, that's when you open that door and you take that step. But there's no designated time on healing and on how you should go about doing things. You know, it's all in your own path and your own journey and what feels right within you. You know, and I think being able to speak about something so traumatic and so dark and, I mean, like you said, the word is gross, you know, like being able to recount these things that have happened to you and, you know, people around you that you cared so much about it. that's not an easy thing to do. You know, that takes a lot.

It's a lot of weight. It's very heavy. So being able to do that and write about it. And if you're in a place right now where you are healing yourself piece by piece, little by little, that's all that matters. Thank you. Yeah. I really appreciate it. Yeah.

And I guess to close up, I mean, there's so much more I wish I could say, but really I should just say like I've written a lot about it. So I'd love if anyone. I was going to say, yeah. Do you, and you said you make, you do have little videos, right, of just different portions or no? Or is it all written? No, I've been on a few podcasts before. So if anyone, my Instagram is making friends online. But you've written about more detail.

I've written a lot. And the book contains a lot of the essays. Father's daughter is the book name. Yeah. It's also available on Amazon. Okay. But also my website, Kelsey Zazana. Send me all of the links.

And I'm going to put everything in the description. So if people kind of want, you know, more information, more details, whatever, they can reach out directly to you and get your book and anything else. But I'm so grateful, obviously, that you came here and were willing to share these parts of your life. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for, I know this was long. I, like, it felt good to, like, put it all out in one place. And I really appreciate it. And of course.

Yeah, I guess to anyone listening, just like it, I know so personally, so intimately what that terror and aloneness is like as a child and like how relieving it is to be at an age where you can actually like consume media in this way that like allows you to make sense of these things and to anyone listening who doesn't relate. Like it's an honor that you. you're educating yourself on this stuff. And also just like, thank you for using your platform in this way because, like, as a survivor, um, incest is really a topic in child rape, child sexual abuse. It is not covered on mainstream platforms in any way. And yours has really like somehow become like one of the only platforms really highlighting this. So I really appreciate it.

Of course. Of course. And I think too, you know, something I want to mention is even if something, somebody can't directly relate, I think that it goes back to just the knowledge and understanding and the education aspect of instead of trying to just ask what's wrong with a child about like kind of going back to what you said with, well, what happened, did something happen? It's like that extra questioning that I think is so necessary because of reasons like this. And the absolute worst case, you know, nothing, or best case, as you'd say, nothing happened. You know what I mean? And maybe a child

has something, you know, mentally going on or like there's a behavioral thing. But like, at least you took that extra step to see if something happened to a child, you know? Yeah, because like, again, like the statistics are striking. Like, it's really, it's really disturbing. Yeah. It happens so often. And it's just, like you said, it's just not spoken about at all. But thank you. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. No, seriously, you did incredible.