We're All Insane - Surviving an Online Predator

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

Sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/insane Thanks HelloFresh! Go to HelloFresh.com/ALLINSANE50 and use code ALLINSANE50 for 50% off plus free shipping! CW: This episode contains descriptions of CSAM, CSA, suicidal ideation. Online predators pose significant dangers to individuals, especially vulnerable children and teenagers, as they exploit the anonymity and accessibility of the digital world. These predators skillfully manipulate emotions and trust, using various platforms to groom and exploit their victims. Through deceptive personas, they lure unsuspecting individuals into engaging in explicit conversations, sharing personal information, or even meeting offline, leading to potential physical, emotional, and psychological harm. The consequences can be devastating, including child exploitation, sexual abuse, harassment, extortion, and even abduction. Awareness, education, and vigilant monitoring of online activities are essential in safeguarding against these predators and ensuring the digital well-being of individuals. Ehren’s YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ehrensjournal/featured The Internet Watch Foundation: https://www.iwf.org.uk/ If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me Devorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. Hey guys, welcome back to the show. Today's episode is sponsored by BetterHelp and HelloFresh. BetterHelp is spelled BetterHELP, and BetterHelp is not a crisis line. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp Therapy Online. If you want to live a more empowered life, therapy can get you there. Visit betterhelp.com slash insane today to get 10% off your first month.

I would like to thank HelloFresh for supporting my show. Go to HelloFresh.com slash All Insane50 and use code All Insane50 for 50% sent off plus free shipping. If you are looking for quick and tasty meals to make the convenience of your own home, then HelloFresh is going to be perfect for you. Hi, my name's Aaron Dorsey, and I'm going to talk today about how I survived online grooming through porn from a predator and how it affected me for almost 20 years of my life as a woman. Talking about my story today, I am a 30-year-old woman. My name's Erin. And my story really kind of starts back when I was 13 years old.

Obviously, kind of have to start with the childhood. But I feel like when I, I didn't really understand my story until I would say the last two years. I just didn't really examine it for a long time. And then within the last two years, I feel like I kind of just opened up this box where I'm just like, holy shit. You know, like there's all these patterns to why there's been cycles of abuse in my life, not just one instance. And so with my childhood, you know, I had two very loving parents. We were, my parents were planning on being missionaries in Japan.

And so we were raised in a very kind of like modest way of living. We didn't really buy a lot of stuff. We volunteered a lot of like a lot of memories of volunteering in like nursing homes. homes and things like that. And we ultimately didn't end up doing that because my mom found out that my dad had a porn addiction when I was in elementary school. And that just kind of like changed everything in our lives. And so she, you know, a lot of my memories in my childhood are my mom essentially saying like, you, my, your dad and I are going to get divorced and then they wouldn't do it. And then they would say it again and then they wouldn't do it. So it's just kind of

this thing. And I think looking back on it now through the lens of an adult, she was just really wrestling with whether to forgive him for this or not and was trying to and then kind of couldn't. Yeah. But I didn't understand that as a child. And then I have this memory of one day we were home and there was a construction worker kind of like walking around the parameters of the house, like doing things. I didn't really know what he was doing. I thought he was like really hot. And so I was like singing Shania Twain trying to like show off for him or whatever. And, um, And then my mom told us to pack some bags. And we didn't really know why we were doing that either.

And then we went to bed and we were woken up in the middle of the night. The police were outside and my mom said, grab your bags. We're leaving. And none of us understood what was going on. I have two sisters and a brother. There are four of us total. And we were kind of like escorted outside by the police. My dad was sitting in his car crying.

You know, we loved my dad. He was never abusive. We didn't really understand what was going. going on and and then we we left with our suitcases. And I know now what happened is that my dad came home. My mom had had all the locks changed on the doors and he couldn't get into the house and he was worried that something had happened, that she had tried to hurt us, something like that. And so he tried to break in through the basement and she had called the police, which is such a strange way of like attempting to leave someone, you know, like just just leave, you know, like why.

If he wasn't abusive or anything. No. And so we left and then eventually they got divorced. And what this kind of thrust my siblings and I into was a feeling of being very lost. Both of my parents, you know, everyone tries their best as a parent and I understand that. But they were both sort of milking their own wounds. And it became very much about like whose side we were going to choose, you know, which is so unhealthy for a child. because we were devastated by essentially the loss of our family.

It just wasn't a family anymore. And for them, it was about like, well, who do you love more? Me or your dad or me or your mom? And they were both kind of doing that. And then my mom became a single mom working as a nurse. And so she was gone all the time. And my older sister and I, we essentially became the fill in parents, kind of raising my two younger siblings.

And that was hard for child. wild. It's not something that I pity myself for, but it left me feeling very angry. It left me feeling, uh, it just made me more vulnerable. I would say if we're talking about how kids can be vulnerable. I felt very unseen. I didn't want to be a child adult. I didn't want to be a child parent. And so this was a point of contention between me and my mom was her kind of being frustrated that I couldn't parent better as a child. You know, she needed us to step up because she was working all the time. And so I just had more and more anger. We fought more and more. I felt very lost. I would kind of take it out on my siblings sometimes. We were all just really, it was just a lot of chaos.

And we would go over to my dad's house. And he wasn't necessarily very present. He stayed in his room a lot. And so we just kind of grew up in this world that was just our own, the four of us. And I thought that I was very mature for my age. You know, I'm raising two younger children. and so I must be basically an adult, you know. And that's where I kind of was with myself when I met a predator on my flip phone when I was 13. So my story's almost 20 years old now. It's crazy when I think about the fact that kids have been meeting predators and kind of getting exploited in this way for almost 20 years.

Right. That's kind of just nuts to me. But there is a free trial for a chat room on my flip phone. And I was really lonely. I was really angry. And so I got on this thing because I'd been on role-playing forms that were like Harry Potter themed. And so it was normal to me to role play in like a safe way where you like make a Harry Potter character. And it's like a writing activity of sorts online.

So I'd already been doing that. So I got on this chat room and I asked if anyone wanted to role play with me because I didn't know that that meant something sexual. I was incredibly sheltered. I wasn't really allowed to have friends outside of school. I didn't really have any extracurricular activities. we couldn't watch mainstream movies. I couldn't listen to like music that other people listened to. I thought the spice girls were black until I was like 16.

I don't know why I thought that, but like I thought that. So I'm just like really in a very innocent place. And Billy messaged me back and he was like, yeah, I want to role play, you know. And we exchanged phone numbers. And it's not that I didn't understand that there was the potential for danger. Yeah. But my logic was that this person doesn't know where I live. This person doesn't have access to my body.

So this person can't hurt me. Well, I think two. Like, well, one, I was going to say, I think you probably were experiencing feelings of abandonment. Sure. Number one. And fuck, I was going to say something else that I believe. My fucking mind. I'm sure you were.

If it comes back. Wait, give me a second because it was important, I think. shit that happens to me all the time shit it's about Billy oh just how he couldn't hurt me it was like I think it's because I went backwards so then I forgot what I was going to say

damn it yes it was going to be it was about that but like I was going to say too nope gone all right keep going I'm going to keep on trucking all right so that pisses me off when that happens keep going so yeah so I really I felt confident that this person couldn't hurt me, that it could only be fun. It could only give me attention, right? Yeah.

Maybe that's what I was going to say. Yeah, it could only feed me in a positive way. Right. And I think, too, that a lot of times when you seek something out, it's not, even though there can be a potential of danger, there's a potential of danger in anything. Sure. You don't, most of the time you're not going into something like, I'm looking for bad news. It's like for someone to talk to and someone to have there. I think that's where I was trying to leave the two together with the abandonment thing. Okay, let's just go with that. Because if not, it's going to drive me nuts. Okay, keep going. Fantastic. So, yeah, and so I started talking to this guy and, you know, we all know what he wanted. He was 32. I didn't know it at the time, but he was actually fresh out of prison. He had months prior been released for actually having sexually

assaulted another minor child. But he's not going to tell me that, right? So I just know that I'm talking to a guy who's kind of older than me, but he talks to me like, I'm pretty, and he cares about my day and how it's hard. And he asks me about what makes me sad in a way that my parents don't. And I think when I meet people who don't understand how predators work, this is the piece that I see that they don't understand, is how kind evil people can be. Oh, absolutely. And they have to reel you in somehow. Yeah, right. And so like that love bombing stage, you know, or whatever you want to call it, that honeymoon stage, was fantastic with him. I mean, he became my best friend.

He was my best friend. And I also think people are like, well, how could an adult be best friends with a child? But so many of these people I see is very emotionally regressed. And I feel like they almost are childlike in a way. And they almost like can relate to kids because the things that still make them upset. It's like they still process like a child sometimes too. You know, they almost are on our level. So that became a thing for three years.

my parents had no idea the entire time. Hey, I'm Jeremy Schwartz from American Criminal. On this season, robbery gone wrong or cold-blooded murder? Either way, Boston will never be the same. Listen to American Criminal, the murder of Carol Stewart, wherever you get your podcasts. Or to get early ad free access, subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at Americancriminal.com.

So were you guys talking on the phone, or was it all texting? We were texting. Sometimes I would call, him, we would also Skype. And like, that was a whole thing where, you know, sometimes he would want to ask me to watch him do really inappropriate things. And that would happen via Skype when I was at my dad's house. So there were, there were a lot. But yeah, so it was within that first year, very quickly that he sent me my first porn video. And this was really where things started to drastically change for me because the first porn video he sent me was like,

really graphic. It wasn't like, you know, the love-making ones where everyone's being really gentle. I actually think that the man's genitals were photoshopped and I don't say that lightly, like knowing now what they normally look like, like it was scary. And it scared me and it made me cry. And because that was my initial reaction to, I had never even held a boy's hand. I had never even kissed someone. I'd never had a boyfriend. And when you talk about molestation, you know, that was almost like a version of being molested through the internet. Right. Because it left me with those same feelings of having skipped like 10 steps.

And I've gone from no experiences with any man to now I've seen a man naked having sex with a woman. And I think too, like when your first, you know, citing of something like that is something so vulgar, it can really change your whole outlook on sex and boys and girls and how they're supposed to interact in that way. Like I can definitely see how that's just not a good. I mean, there's a reason why kids and young people shouldn't be watching that stuff. Yeah.

And so, and yeah, that's the other thing that's crazy about the internet is even to this day, it's like so unregulated. Right. It's so accessible. Yeah, he was in Texas. You got to click a button. Are you 18? Yeah, I'm 18.

Yeah. And predators can just send this stuff to kids and groom them with it. And more and more articles are coming out about how like this is a common tactic. But yeah, so I saw it. It made me cry. Did you tell him that? Yes. Because who am I going to?

process this way. I'm not going to go to my parents, my Christian parents and tell them I saw porn, you know, but they're going to say, who sent it to you? How did you see it? They're going to ask questions and I don't want to lose my best friend. So yeah, I totally went to him and said, you know, I think there might be something wrong with me because I already wondered if I think every teenager is insecure about how they're different from other people, right? And so I already felt abnormal from the world in so many ways as like a sheltered kid. And so then I wondered, oh, well, am I abnormal from all the other girls my age in this way too? And so I kind of opened up to him about that insecurity. And like, as predators do, he was like, oh, well, this is just a perfect way to

just like start really wearing down your self-esteem, right? Opportunity number one, right? And he told me that it probably meant I was a lesbian because normal straight girls don't react to things that way. Normal straight girls like stuff like that. And so I should start considering that I might be bisexual or gay. And so that really started this whole indoctrination process into there's something wrong with Aaron and grooming me with porn, teaching me like, I'm going to teach you, you know, if you, because I was like, no, I don't think I'm gay, you know, and he's like, okay, well, if that's true, then I'm going to start sending you more materials so that you can really just start learning to like this stuff, you know, and I never would like any of it. And that, sorry to interrupt.

Sure. When he would send it to you, would he watch your reaction or he would send it and you would just tell him what you thought. Yeah, I would just tell him. Okay. But when we Skyped, I was watching him do inappropriate things. And that also, I remember one time I threw up. I was going to say, like, how did that make you feel? Yeah, it left me so inherently disturbed because there was no love in it, you know? And just everything about it, it's not like it's visually attractive anyway, you know, like nothing about it's just not. It's just not an attractive thing. I agree. Yeah, I agree with that. But it's just so not violent. Violent isn't the right word. It was just

so aggressive. Yeah. You know? And it left me. And I'm in a room by myself. That's the other part of it. It just, it felt so lonely the whole time. And I think that's why like after this, whole experience with him. I still have never really felt tempted to watch that stuff because when I do, my body and my mind immediately associated with loneliness and I have like the same types of reactions, you know? So if anything, I guess he did me a favor with that. I don't know. But yeah, so like that was my sort of experience with him where I just came to believe that there was really something inherently wrong with me that I was blessed to have this man talking to me because, you know, what other guy is going I want to talk to a girl. Helping you figure out who you are. Yeah, you know, it's great. And so

that was, that was a whole thing for three years. And I would try. And this is where, you know, he was rewiring my brain. Right. He's rewiring my brain. And I'm not aware of that as a child, but he is. And so I'm trying, there would be times where, you know, I'd be like, this makes me feel so horrible. I don't want to talk to you anymore. And he would literally say, like, you'll be back. I know you'll be back. And I would. I would come back, you know. But I loathed him for saying that. obviously, but in those periods of time where I would try and stop talking to him, I'd try and like talk to a boy my age or whatever. But now my brain has started to be rewired through that, that merry-go-round cycle of like abuse with like the highs of him making me feel amazing and then

the crashes of him making me feel dirty. And so what I, what I didn't logically understand at the time that I understand now is I would find that I wouldn't really be attracted to boys my age. And I then again felt like something was wrong with me, felt discouraged, felt bad about myself. And really what that was is my baseline for my foundation, you know, of what I was going off of for for what I looked for was really kind of like this predatory experience. And that had really already kind of done that to my mind. So when I was 16, I moved in with my dad. And then I got my driver's license and I had a car.

And, you know, my dad wasn't necessarily like watching every single thing that I did because, you know, that's not even bad parenting. That's just the way we were. So there was a weekend where I was really depressed and I was like, I want to finally meet this person, this person who I really believe loves me as insane as that sounds. Because you guys were talking for three years at this point. Yeah. And so I told my dad that I was going over to my mom's house. My mom and I weren't really talking at the time. and I drove down to Texas, which from Missouri is a 12-hour drive.

Wow. Yeah. You did that when you were 16. Yeah. I was driving an F-150 truck, which has horrible gas mileage, and I had never driven out of the state before by myself. I remember, I'm using MapQuest, right? Like, this isn't where I didn't have, like, Google Maps on my phone.

I had, like, a printout, and he was going to meet me at a gas station. And I drove throughout the entire night. I had, there were whole stretches of, of this highway, which were just cement walls, no gas station, nowhere to get off. There were toll booze. I had to write them a check because, like, I just stuff I wasn't expecting. I didn't know if I was going to run out of gas. There were like business exits that had the same number as the exit number I was looking for. And I remember I was confused, like, is that the exit I need to get off on or is it not? And like, just I smelled disgusting by the time I got there because I had had so many

attacks and from the adrenaline of everything I was just sweating. I can't believe you made it. Yeah. I would have never made it. No, I know. Yeah. I think it's just sheer insanity. Oh my God. Literally, I can't believe you made it. I know. Yeah. And I was so tired. You know, like there was a time where I did sleep for like 30 minutes, but then the anxiety would wake me up again. And I listened to Fergie, like on repeat the whole time. Shout out to Fergie. So yeah, I just, it was crazy. my family, I didn't tell anybody I was going down there. So I think that's the other reason why I felt like trapped in this experience of like, I just got to keep going forward, you know, because like, if I get lost, who am I going to call? I don't want anyone to know where I am. I don't want to get

in trouble, you know? And it's crazy how many kids and how many people think this. And it's, there's so many situations that are avoidable, but we just don't want our parents to be mad at us. It's such a child-like fear, you know, of our mom and dad's disappointment and fear. And yet that is the thing that holds so many survivors hostage sometimes in these forks in the road that they come to. It's nuts. And so just not wanting to feel more shame, I think. Shame is such an emotion that traps so many survivors in such horrible things.

And it's just unbearable sometimes to us. And now a word from our sponsor. Anytime that I have found myself going through a confusing or a difficult time in life or even just needed somebody to listen to me that had an unbiased opinion, I've always turned to BetterHelp. I feel like it's provided me a very safe space to really have somebody just hear me and hear what I'm going through. Whether you're thinking about starting therapy or maybe you already have a therapist but are exploring other options. BetterHelp is a perfect option for you. It's entirely online and it is designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited for your schedule. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp Therapy online. For 10% off your first month, go to BetterH-E-L-P.com slash insane. Start living a better life today. For years, I was so skeptical about therapy. I experimented with a couple different therapists in person, never really had any success or luck,

and I'm sure there's so many of you out there that can relate to that, or just maybe don't feel comfortable going in person and talking to someone new. But after hearing about BetterHelp, now that I'm a little bit older, I decided to give it another try and I loved the fact that everything was online. It made me feel a lot more comfortable and less pressured overall. All I had to do was fill out a brief questionnaire and I was matched with a licensed professional. And if for any reason that therapist doesn't really fit you where you feel like maybe you want

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That's BetterHelphelp.com slash insane. With summer here, it is important to me, my family, and my friends to be eating delicious and fresh meals. HelloFresh is America's number one meal kit featuring quality proteins, fresh produce, and plans for so many different lifestyles. Go to hellofresh.com slash all insane 50 and use code all insane 50 for 50% off plus free shipping. I personally am someone that has always struggled in the kitchen with cooking and this is why Hello! Fresh has saved my life with their pre-portioned ingredients, step-by-step instructions. I save so much time. I don't have to search around the grocery store looking for everything I need.

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Tonight, I'm going to be making my pork tacos for my mom and I. And I am so excited to show off my new and improved cooking skills and give my mom the best dinner she's had in a very long time. Go to hellofresh.com slash all insane 50 and use code all insane 50 for 50% off plus free shipping. So yeah, I got there. It was like seven in the morning and I left my truck at a gas station. And this is how I ultimately was able to prove that I was down there was because I had the gas station receipts. Otherwise, they were like when I ended up working with the FBI, they were like, you have no

like proof, but I had the gas station receipts. So I left my truck at the gas station and we start driving back to his house. And he immediately started doing things to me in the car while we're driving. And I, I remember the shock, you know, of this moment of, I just understood immediately that he didn't love me. Like, because he knew, he knew I had talked to him about, like we're going to go slow, right? Like, you know I'm a virgin. Like, and just the way that everything started happening in the car, I instantly knew that he didn't love me and I was in a really dangerous situation. And I brought my homework with me from school. You know what I mean? That's really how much I was like going to hang out with my friend, like, my friend that I love or whatever,

my boyfriend, I don't know. And so like it hit me like a wall. And so we get back to his house and he can tell how scared I am. And I think that concerned him because it showed on my face so much. And so he said to me, he said, if you look at me like that again, I am going to hurt you. So you need to act like you enjoy it, you know? And I was there for a whole weekend and I just kind of went along with everything. But it really, I remember when I left and I still don't know. why he let me leave. Like, by the grace of God, this man let me leave. Um, because I don't know why he

let me leave. And I was driving home and I just remember crying and not understanding why I was crying because I still did not think that I had been raped because everything that he did to me, I had already seen in a porn video. And I wasn't screaming. I wasn't kicking. You know, um, there were, there was no violence to it. And so I really felt like even though I hadn't wanted it, it wasn't rape because I wasn't, it wasn't violent. You know what I mean? It just, it matched everything I'd already seen in the videos. I was kind of sad, but I don't know.

It just didn't connect for me as rape. And so I judged myself for crying as I was driving home. And I didn't tell anybody about it for like months and months and months because I was just like, yeah, you know, had my first sexual experience. So he took your virginity. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, 1,000%. And, you know, lots of, lots of other really horrible things that happened. Like, he invited a woman over just all this stuff, wanted to make sure I had my first sexual experience with a woman since I'm bisexual, you know, really get that in there.

And did he, was he a part of that or he was. Yeah. No, he's part of it. Yeah. And so, yeah, there was just like a lot of really bad stuff that happened. And so even when I ended up telling my mom, you know, like I'm not a virgin anymore, I didn't tell her I've been raped. I was just sad that I wasn't a virgin anymore. And she asked me about how it happened.

And when I told her how it happened, she was like, no, that's, that's rape. You're a minor. Like, we're going to the police. And so I was working with the police. And I just remember the whole time I was waiting for them. I was waiting for them to tell me like, you know what? We heard your story. And yeah, it wasn't rape.

You know what I mean? I was really expecting someone to say that to me. And no one ever did. And so because it was across state lines, I ended up working with the FBI, I, like, wore a wire during a phone call so that they could, like, get enough evidence from our conversation of Billy saying, and this is what was so crazy. So I wore this wire and I called him and they're like, we just need him to confirm that you were down there and that he knows that he hurt you. And I'm like, he's not going to, like, admit that. So I called him and he could tell I was nervous.

And he was like, oh, you know, I'm just kind of like processing what happened this weekend. you know, like it didn't make me feel good. And he was like, oh yeah, I know it hurt you. And like you didn't want it. And I remember being shocked by that. I was just like, because the whole thing was so confusing to me the whole time while it was happening. Like, it's like I didn't have time to process what I wanted and what I didn't want. I was just like frozen and so like disconnected from all of it. And so yeah, so I ended up working with the FBI and I even told the FBI guy he was pretending to be a 14 year old and like chat with him so that they could get a subpoena to get access to his computer. And I told the FBI guy, I was like, I really think that I'm putting, like, I can't believe I said this, but I was like,

I really don't think he knows what he did wrong. I really think, like, that this guy just, like, made a mistake, really loved me. You know, I'm a lovable person. Like, he just really loved me. And he just, like, made a mistake. And he doesn't, like, you know, and he was like, okay, well, I want to show you something to put that, like, guilt to rest. And he showed me a screenshot of his conversation with Billy where like Billy was making fun of me and was saying like how stupid I was to ever think that he loved me. And that was the moment where I really understood that I had been exploited. That was the moment where I really understood like none of that was consensual and like it was truly exploitation, you know. And I think that's also the thing that's so

hard for people to understand about abusive relationships is like how you have two truths that your mind understands and one will disappear and then the other one will disappear. And it's like this weird flip-flot between like, oh my gosh, I think they're a horrible person. And then like that disappears. You're like, no, they're lovely. Like I love them so much. And then it's like insanity, you know. And there were so many times where like I would realize that this guy probably didn't love me. And then it would disappear and I would like be so fully convinced that he did love me. And that that dichotomy of both of those things being true in my mind at the same time, you know, and how do you explain that to somebody?

But he did end up getting put away in prison. They found like a ton of child porn on his computer and that he had been talking to other girls as well. So, you know, my parents and I, after this experience, we all thought, okay, he's gone. Aaron's good now. And I really thought I was good now. But what I didn't understand was that my brain had been rewired.

And I now believed things about myself as a woman and how I was supposed to approach, relationships that was like so fucking off the grid wrong, you know. And my parents didn't know everything that he'd said to me. They didn't know every, all the conversations we had. They didn't ask. They didn't really want to know. And so it was, it was just stayed inside of me totally unaddressed. And so I pursued relationships in a way where I just really kind of thought of myself as a body. And when I went on dates with people, I just sort of like assumed it's supposed to just be tons and tons of sex. And it doesn't matter if I enjoy it. Why would it matter if I enjoy it? Because

it's not about me. It's about them. And that's what the porn taught me. That's what he taught me. And I didn't really have any evidence in my parents' relationships to show the contrary either, because neither of them really, like, dated for a really long time afterwards. So I had no real examples of, like, healthy love in my life. Right. And so I go, you know, I'm going to community college and when I was 19, I had an opportunity to start modeling. And, you know, I looking back on that now, was so unprepared to go into that industry because of how I thought about myself and because of the beliefs I had about how I was supposed to be as a woman. I think everyone can exist in the modeling industry and have thousands of different experiences. But for me, I was really truly a

vulnerable person because I already had a tendency to not care about my own needs, to want to give my body away as much as possible to whoever asked for it, really, because that's just kind of how I learned to seek love and to seek approval and to seek attention. And so I went into this industry at 19 just like hell bent on creating chaos for myself. I think, I mean, my brain's rewired and I'm wanting like tons of dopamine in any way I can get it and all all these different things. And so I, I, it was, it was just nuts. I'm like, I meet my mother agents and they're doing a special for ABC News. And they're like, do you want to be on this special? And I'm like, yeah, fuck it. I don't know, you know, whatever. So I get on the plane. And then even the guy sitting next to me

on the plane is someone who ends up being like kind of famous. His name's Ira Glass. And he had like a podcast that was pretty well known at the time. So I'm like meeting this podcast guy on the plane. He gives me his number. He's like, maybe I'll do a podcast with you. I get off the plane. ABC News is there. You know, like I'm signing with a modeling agency in New York City. I've never even been anywhere other than Texas and Missouri. And it's just like, it was so much for me to process this feeling of like, maybe I'm finally special. You know what I mean? Like maybe now I can finally get rid of all that shame that I felt about myself and now I can have worth as a woman. Now somebody will tell me that like I am enough as a person if I just prove my way through this industry now instead.

And so it just became this whole thing of just kind of, sorry, I just lost my train of flog. Now you know how I felt. Yeah, straight up. Yeah. So I just kind of entered into this industry, just like not really prepared for how many predatory people were in that as well. And just kind of the power dynamics that can be involved when there's like that much money on the line and that much of someone's reputation as, a fashion designer or whomever. And I did really good at it. I really enjoyed it. But the whole time that I did it for three years, I felt very lost and I felt very depressed because once again,

I was giving away my body as much as I could. That was all I really knew how to do. And I don't judge anyone for asking me like, hey, do you want to get naked? You know what I mean? And things like that. Like, that was their normal. And me getting naked was my normal. Me sexualizing myself was my normal. But looking back on it now, it is kind of disappointing when I think about the things that I did because I did it through the lens of a person who didn't really know how to value herself. And that's what was so unfortunate. It's like I had all these things that a predator taught me at 13. And at 13, that was really sad. And at 15, that was really sad. And at 16, that was really sad. But then it's just kind of weird because you enter into adulthood as a 1920, whatever

year old. And you have the same beliefs that you had when you were first indoctrinated, but they're totally unexamined. And now nobody really gives a shit because you're an adult, right? You have to take care of that stuff yourself. There's nobody really around to, like, protect you from your own indoctrination, essentially. And so that's kind of what happened. And I just sort of let people, I wouldn't say exploit me because that wasn't their intention. I don't think, but I just let people push me in any direction that they wanted. And I was just kind of this leaf in the wind. And once again, I found that no matter how much I gave my body away, I still did not find that I had worth.

I still didn't find that I had value that it was fleeting and it would fade away, like so quickly. And if anything, the more that I gave myself away, it was almost like the less that people respected me because I didn't know how to stand up for myself and be assertive and all that stuff. So after three years of that, you know, by the end of that, I was on drugs, I was depressed. I was totally lost as a person. And so I ultimately had to walk away from that industry. And at the time, I felt like a failure. You know, it was like, oh, I'm only 22. I peaked at 22. There's nothing else I could ever do. That's a value. This was the biggest thing I could have ever done in my life and I failed at it. and I basically hated myself once again.

And so I quit and I literally moved back to my hometown. I started working at a restaurant. I developed like alcohol issues and all this stuff. And I was just like so it felt like there was a fire burning inside of me that I couldn't put out just from all this pain and all this anger and all this, all these ways that I was living my life and trying to pursue romantic relationships that always ended up being exploitive and always ended up. up making me feel in the end like I gave too much of myself away too quickly. And I didn't

understand why I like kept doing it, you know, like why my life was just this cycle that I couldn't stop that left me always in so much pain and always hurting so much. And so when I was 23, I had just been drinking like all the time and just like having sex like all the time. And I woke up one morning and just kind of realized, you know, like I really just don't want to here anymore. And I had been like kind of thinking about suicide for a couple of months. And I just sort of decided that day, you know, like today's going to be the day that I do it. Today's going to be the day that I just kind of like end all of this stuff inside of me. And so I didn't know how to fire a gun because I'd never held a gun. So my plan was to drive

to a shooting range, have to teach me out of fire a gun. And then like I just kill myself there. And actually like Google to make sure it's like a thing. which it is. And so I was on my way to the shooting range when this kind of like spiritual experience happened to me. And I remembered this memory that I had not remembered since I was 16 when I was dating a guy. And he like pointed at this building and he said that's where my ex-girlfriend went when she was suicidal. And when this memory like popped in my head, it was almost like it created a window in my tunnel vision to where I could realize that like I needed to get help. And so I drove to that place. and when I got there, they happened to have the only suicide unit program that's 30 days long

in the entire country and it moves around. And it just like happened to be there when I got there. And so I ended up doing this program and it just like totally changed my life. And I think that's the point where I started finally like recovering from the stuff that I had been through. But it's just been a really slow journey for me of unpacking this stuff. And really the thing that's been the most helpful to me is when I really started examining, like, how porn affected me and what porn taught me as a person and just the beliefs that I've had about myself as a woman that really, like, have not worked to my advantage at all. And ultimately, only ever ended up kind of like working to a man's advantage instead. And how I've kind of just been, like, exploiting myself over and over for almost

26 years of my life, just because of the storytellers in my life and how, like, you know, I was immersed in porn and those were the stories I was absorbing about, like, what love is supposed to look like and what relationships are supposed to look like. And then I got out in the world and I was watching a lot of, like, movies and shows that kind of perpetuated, not exactly the same idea, but similar stuff. And I feel like the biggest thing that I've had to, like, work on and try and change in my life now is just understanding, like, I'm not an object, you know, I am literally a person. I have person needs. I need love. I'm not weak because I need love, you know, which is kind of what Billy taught me like I was weak because I wanted things more than just sex from him because I had emotional needs of any kind. And I see sort of these themes of predatory ideas in different pieces of society now. And it just makes me feel so disheartened for women and for kids and for whomever because I'm like, that, that's,

idea that's being treated as normal in that movie or in that song is literally what a predator taught me and what a predator wanted for me when I was a child, you know, so I can like recognize it and spot it in different places now. And sometimes I feel like these ideas that I was taught as a 13 year old are almost like spreading outward everywhere because porn has become such a socially acceptable like addiction. And I see how it's like changing people and more and more people almost remind me of my 13-year-old self and the person that I became later, I see so many girls treating themselves as strictly objects. And it just makes me so sad for them because I think we're really being taught that it makes you weak if you don't, you know, have the gumption and the

strength to be that kind of girl that can just like go around and have one-night stands. And it's not about shaming anybody. It's just I, so many girls I meet, like, who are trying to get away from that stuff, they're just as depressed as I was, and they're just as sad and burnt out and, like, empty, you know, from that kind of life. Well, because none of that stuff is soul feeding. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's all very surface level. It can be very dark. Yeah. And I think that, you know, in my opinion, the reason I think porn exists as a whole is because we are sexual beings, And that's like people's way to please themselves if there's not a human there and to have that visual and release. But I think that they're with anything, it gets, it can get very vulgar and very dark and very gross.

And addictive. Yeah. And that too. And I don't think, like I don't, I feel like it's such a fine line because I like, I mean, me as someone that's on only fans and I can literally, I mean, I've been sitting here and since I've been doing it. I know it's such a dark thing. Yeah. That's why I feel depressed and sad when I do it and I don't have no desire to do it. And I think that porn is the same way.

I think all of that, I feel like it's hard to explain because I think that sex with a partner or even like a one-night stay. Because everybody's different, you know, like, and everybody's business is their business. If you're somebody that wants to go have a one-night stand and just please that sexual need, do your thing. Yeah. And then I also think there's like the passionate and loving sex that you're. And I think that all of that stuff exists. But I do think that like it's so easy, like you were saying, to go down a really dark path with any of that stuff.

Yeah. And take a dark turn. That even if so many people are doing it, it's still really bad for your brain. Yeah. It's bad for your feelings and your soul because none of that stuff will ever actually make you feel like you have purpose. Correct. And there's no happiness in it.

It's like set like, like I think regardless, doing anything sexual or having that sexual stuff, it doesn't feel and fuel you like an actual meaningful experience will. And what I, what, with the girls that I meet who are my friends who are also so many times survivors, you know what I talked to them about is what I started really asking myself is, am I doing this because like I actually want this for myself? Or did I learn it from a story, whether it was a movie or my previous indoctrination or whatever it is? Like just allowing myself to ask myself that question. Like, where did I get this idea? Did the person who taught me this idea, did they want good things for me? When they taught me this idea, were they just trying to sell me a

product regardless of how it would affect me because I see so many young girls now thinking that they are a failure as a woman if they don't live in X, Y, and Z ways? If you feel empowered doing something, that is good. But if you're doing it to avoid feeling like you're a failure as a woman, that that's not a good reason to be doing something. And it does not make you a failure because you don't do it, you know? But so many men will also perpetuate this idea that you are a failure as a woman if you don't just like fuck me right away. You know what I mean?

And it's like, but why? Like explain that logic to me. And I just feel like I have more so been pushing back on the things that I just so easily like thought about myself and really been like, okay, wait, why do I believe that? do I want to continue believing that? And like allowing myself to have that conversation because even the way I viewed intimacy was from Billy. You know, like I really thought I was supposed to just like give all of myself away as quickly as possible, all of my heart. Like on first dates, I had to have a therapist explained to me like this is not a safe way of dating because I would go

on a first date and I would tell them all of my trauma. I would almost like spotlight everything so that if they wanted to run away, they could run away. And she was like, that's really not safe because you want to let people get to know you as who you are, not defined by your trauma, but just like really who you are. And then tell that to them later. And also when you know that they're actually a safe person to tell that to. And I wasn't assessing, you know, it was like this freezing mentality where I was so desperate for love and I didn't care about my own needs so much that I would just give them everything inside of me and hope that they stayed. And that's one of the things that I've really changed where I'm like, no, I am going to go slower. And the things that are really vulnerable to me, I'm going to

wait to give that to someone. And if they don't want to stick around and wait for that, then maybe they weren't the right person for me anyway. But I've had to like totally change how I date it, you know? And it's been difficult for me sometimes because not everybody is on the same page. or once, you know, so like with my friends, not all of them feel the same way I do, which is totally fine. But it's like this path that I've almost had to chart on my own of really looking inside and going, who do I turn to to educate myself on love? Do I turn to my parents? Not really. Did I turn to a predator? Yes. Okay, where did I turn to to educate myself on love after a predator. Well, movies. And a lot of them, you know, not always ones that showed long-term success

and relationships. You know, they're just like toxic love. Yeah. Yeah. Like romanticized. Yes, exactly. And so like really asking myself, okay, where am I educating myself on love? Yeah. Where should I educate myself on love? Like what? We don't really have those resources. No. It's like you, you can, and that's the thing too, is like even for myself, I've realized that obviously I've, like, you know, I think everybody experiences a few bad relationships, whatever. But it's gotten to a point too, like the older I've gotten, you start to question, does this fantasy love that's like pure and good? Does it even exist? Like, who knows? Totally ask myself that. Right. And it's sad because I do I think it can exist? Absolutely. Do I think it's one in a million? Absolutely. Because I think that there's so many dark

gross people. I think there's a lot, majority of men, I mean, men won't like to hear this, but I think majority of men. There's some good ones out there. Yeah.

Majority of men, I think can be pigs. I think that they view a lot of things more sexually than they do. They have been spoiled. Yeah. But I think also they just naturally, men are more sexual beings

a lot of times than women. Yes. And I think that their mindset is going to be like when they see an attractive girl, like I want to fuck her. Whereas like when we see attractive guy, I mean, at least me, when I see an attractive guy,

that's not my first thought. It's like, oh, I want to get to know. Yeah, I hope he sees my heart. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Like you start to like see, yeah, see like a future, see everything else. And it's just, it's really unfortunate because like you were just saying it's like, where do you turn and what are your healthy examples? And, you know, a lot of times unfortunately parents don't have great relationships. And it's not it's not the healthiest thing that they show their kids. So and I think too it's interesting to me that like as a child you kind of like heard that whole porn addiction thing from your dad. And then almost it was like there again when you were, you know, 13 and it was so it's

I feel like you had such a negative perception of that, which it is pretty negative. But it was almost like the whole porn thing was just being thrown at you from such a young age that I just, it makes sense why you have such a, what's the word? Like I guess negative perception around that because it and it is unfortunate because sex can be such a meaningful, passionate thing with the right person in the right circumstances. But I think that that, unfortunately, that is hard to find and it is rare and it is hard to find two people on the same page where you can like build that trust, which in a way makes it even more important for you to wait that time and take it slow.

So you kind of can see that more or hope that they're being honest. But yeah, no, it really is. It's crazy what things in your life, like even the smallest thing. Like, you know, because there's a chance that you hearing as a kid like, oh, like your dad had a porn addiction, like if it would have stopped there, that might not have had the same effects. But it's like even that, like this smaller things, hearing things. Yeah. And seeing things and seeing the result of things can just have such crazy reactions in your life down the road. Yeah.

I think it's also seeing like how more so porn is affecting kids nowadays from the lack of regulation around it because like I was kind of raw. of the opportunity to start my baseline of how I viewed myself as a woman, not as an object. That was kind of taken away from me through my experience. And with so many kids nowadays, you know, it's almost not talked about enough how many kids are not only viewing porn, but the average age for self-generated child sexual abuse material online is six years old now, six to nine. So these kids are thinking of themselves as objects, as sexual objects at that young of an age. Like what does that do for them long term?

And they're also viewing sex as just like the act of fucking basically and not of what it can mean or what why you should be doing that with like someone you care about. It's just like, oh, well, there's a girl or a guy or girls and girls. But there they are. And then this is what you should be doing with someone else. which isn't the case. Right. Like it's like it takes away. I mean, 100% it takes away all meaning and all emotion.

It's just like with anything else in life. It's like if you're going to take a new pill, what are the side effects of that pill? You know what I mean? Things like that. And so that's more so like my qualm with the porn industry is just more so like we just remember we're not objects. You know what I mean? That we are so much more than that, deeper than that.

And yes, also like where are you educating yourself on love like as a woman? and because there are so many, like, I was educating myself a lot when I first got into like the recovery of myself. I was educating myself a lot on like psychopaths and narcissists and like really understanding the mind of an evil man, you know, and grooming and all these things. And then after a while I was like, you know what? I'm a freaking expert on evil men, but I don't know anything about good men. Like I don't, I don't know how they think, like what that looks like. I really had no real, like in-depth examples of that. And so I literally started like looking around on YouTube. And I randomly enough found like Steve Harvey. And he wrote a book,

act like a lady, think like a man, where he explains how good men think and how they act. And one of the biggest things that I had no experience in and still don't very much to this day is how when men care about a woman, they're protective of her. That is a thing men love doing as like protecting women. And I had zero experience. in a man being protective of me. So I didn't even like know that that was like a thing. Right. You know?

And so I've really just been trying to work on like, okay, I process this. I looked at this. But I want to also look at the things that I have like almost no experience in so that I do know what I'm actually looking for because you can have a whole list of stuff that you don't want and you don't like. But if you don't have a list of what you're actually looking for, that still leaves you a little bit like a leaf in the wind, you know? And so it's, I think that's been the biggest journey for me, like as a survivor is that yes, there was the way that he hurt my body,

but there is more so the way that he hurt my mind and he hurt my mind for three years. And I let that way that my mind was hurt and rewired and changed, like stay unexamined inside of me for like 15 years after that. And I want to learn, I get to ask myself the question now, what kind of woman do I want to be? I get to like ask myself that. I don't get to let a man choose that for me, which I would always do. I would turn to them and say, what kind of woman should I be so that you'll stay? And I get to go on the very exciting journey now of like, what do I personally want intimacy to look like? I get to like pick. And that's like so crazy. It's like I got out of this cave and there's like a field in front of me and I can run in any direction that I want to.

And no one gets to tell me how to run or where to run to. And I don't even know where I want to run, you know. But like I get to decide for myself what kind of woman I want to be and how I approach sex and how I approach relationships. And like it's it's almost like overwhelming, you know. But that's been my favorite part out of all of this is getting to ask myself those questions. And I really think it's incredible too that I think it's really, really easy for people to let their experiences define them. And that's just something that sometimes you can't even help.

Sure. Because it could be so traumatic and so hard for someone to process and get through. Yes. But I really think something that's so incredible about your story is that the turnaround, like the turnaround that you've had. Yeah. It's almost like empowered you rather than. And of course you had your moment where it got you down. Yeah, yeah.

you were done. Yeah. But now it's like you've overcome it. And obviously there's always, I don't think we're ever truly done working on ourselves. No. But to just hear the excitement. Yeah. And even I feel like the education of the importance of tapping into what do I want for me.

Yeah. And even sorting through everything that you've been through is so important. Because I think too it's really hard for people to pinpoint this. is what caused this and this is why I act this way. Sure. It's so hard to figure it out. And I'm sure even with myself, I can, even just from sitting across from people, like, it makes me wonder, like, is there something that happened in my life that makes me act some of these ways or makes me of these decisions? And it's hard. And it takes a lot of time and patience and I would say vulnerability within yourself to really dive into that. So I think

that you should give yourself seriously so much credit. And when you were telling the story about like when you almost committed suicide, like that really gave me chills. And that was crazy. Yeah. Because it really was like a sign for you of no, no, not your time yet. And the thing is, is like you sitting here today and who you are today proves that. Yeah. Because look where you are now. And you're so much better and stronger. And you're only going to help others and yourself as time goes on, which I think is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I'm just so desperate for like other women to understand that like you don't have to prove your value. you, you don't have to prove it. You know, you can know it, like intrinsically know it. And when you know it, others see it. Right. And that's so different from not knowing it and trying to prove it.

Those are two like different things. But, you know, in a world nowadays where I think women are finally getting more opportunities to like have voices and be a stronger, more empowered version of themselves, like please just make sure that, you know, you're not accidentally letting a man or a man view, educate you on how to be a woman. Right. And don't ever bend your standards and values for any man, any woman, anything. Yes. I think that's the best part of finding yourself and the things that make you happy and make you feel valued. Like, don't ever change that for anybody. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So you did incredible. Oh, thanks. You're such a good speaker. Like, seriously, I was so intrigued the whole time. You did amazing. Well, I do work with a guy in Missouri. He goes,

into schools and educates kids on how to protect themselves from getting trafficked online. And he really is seeing how many kids what happened to me is like happening to them. But it's crazy because trafficking isn't like getting abducted in a van anymore. It's literally like kids getting blackmailed on their phones and then killing themselves later because of it. So it's just nuts to me to see like there's this thing happening out there that I survived. So he uses like some of my testimony and videos that he shows during presentation. So I've gotten practice like through that. But, um, yeah, thank you. One thing I did just want to add is that, you know, the internet watch foundation, which is a non-for-profit based in the United Kingdom, you can report sexual abuse

material children, child sexual abuse material that you find online to them and they can get it taken down. And they issue annual reports of what is being reported to them, the percentages of whatever category of material that they're seeing. Just in 2022 alone, the amount of child sexual abuse material that involved little boys escalated by 137 percent. And now they are seeing that the average age for self-generated images is six to nine years old. And so, you know, kids are trafficking themselves essentially through their phones more and more nowadays. And this is a crisis that we all, you know, should be aware of and try and do something to help with. your story was great to be to hear but it also is so educational and inspiring to see

how empowering you are now within yourself thank you it's great of course thank you cool