We're All Insane - Surviving Revenge P*rn

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

Leah uses they/them pronouns. CW: This episode contains descriptions of image-based sexual abuse, sucidal ideation, SH, and SA.  Image-based sexual abuse, often known as "revenge p*rn" or "non-consensual p*rnography," is a disturbing digital offense with severe implications, particularly for young people. This malicious act involves the unauthorized distribution of explicit or intimate images or videos, exploiting trust or technology to share them online without consent. Among the most vulnerable are young individuals who may lack the experience and resources to protect themselves effectively. The consequences for them can be devastating, including emotional distress, social ostracization, and suicide. Combating this issue requires legal measures, comprehensive education, and digital literacy programs, all geared towards safeguarding the well-being of our youth in the digital age. Leah’s socials: https://www.leahjuliett.com/ https://www.instagram.com/leahjuliett https://www.tiktok.com/@leahjuliettpoems Leah’s Book: https://www.leahjuliett.com/naked-in-public Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me Devorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. My name is Leah Juliette. I'm 26. I'm a poet and an activist and I'm a survivor of revenge born. So I guess starting from the beginning, I grew up in the most conservative town in the state of Connecticut, which is where I'm from. It is literally if you were to look at a map of the ideologies of people's political beliefs in Connecticut, there would be a red hole where my town was. And I didn't understand growing up how that would influence me as a queer person,

as a non-binary person, as a survivor. But I think that the politics of where we grow up certainly plays a role in how we turn out. And that certainly is what happened to me. So I grew up in the Catholic Church. I grew up in an incredibly non-diverse school. I would say that 99% of my school population was white. I only had white teachers my whole life until college.

And so I didn't grow up with a knowledge of what diversity was. I only grew up with a deep pain inside of me. That is something that I would say is the most recognizable in my life has been pain. And so growing up in this small town, not feeling like I fit in, questioning my identity. I thought from the very beginning that who I was was inherently wrong. I remember being five or six and lying to my mom and saying that I didn't brush my teeth when she asked me if I brushed my teeth. And the guilt that sat in my body was overwhelming.

And so I would need to tell her. And so living with that feeling of guilt is something that I've lived with my entire life. guilt, shame, just wanting to harm myself because I didn't believe that the experiences that I had were worthy or valid or okay. So that's kind of setting the scene for where I was growing up. So like not to interrupt you. Sure. First of all, I just want to say like you're such a good speaker. Oh, thank you. You're like so intriguing to listen to. It's like you have this such a good voice. Okay, anyway. So basically, your whole life as a child, you kind of felt like you didn't really know who you were. And that was just because you think your surroundings and everything like that. Like were your parents kind of the same way?

So my parents got divorced when I was around seven. And I come from a family that has a history of mental health issues, anxiety, depression, things like that. But we didn't talk about it. And so when my parents got divorced and my dad moved away, I felt this incredible feeling of isolation that I had never felt before. I remember listening to Miley Cyrus's album and listening to some of the saddest songs on the album back in like 2007 or something and just missing my dad. And so it wasn't that I felt like I didn't belong in the world. It's that I felt like the world didn't see me. Okay. And like that's where that pain was coming from. That's where that pain was coming from originally. It was like I was baptized into pain. That's what it feels like. I don't remember life without feeling sad. And so when the traumatizing things started to happen, it almost like validated for me in my mind as a young person that this is what's supposed to happen to me. This is who I'm supposed to be, these bad things that happened to me.

are supposed to be a way for me to try to teach the world something. I remember being 10, 12, 13, thinking there has to be a reason that I feel like this. One day I'll make something out of this. Which is why things like this, podcasts, opportunities to tell my story, it all really does feel full circle. And it feels like I'm telling my story on behalf of my younger self who so wanted that opportunity but didn't know what to say. Yeah.

And also for so many other people that are probably feeling the exact same way that you did during those times. Yeah. Yeah. I think I, my, and we'll go back to, you know, why this all is and what happened. But my ethos, my like driving force is to be the person that I needed when I was younger. And so I'm constantly weaving back between the past and the present to remember things and have these sparks of memory of, oh my God, like this. thing that happened to me when I was seven is the reason that this pattern in how I act now at 26, why that came to be and what that is and is it abandonment, is isolation, what is it?

So starting from being in so much pain at such a young age and feeling abandoned by my parents, feeling abandoned by the world, I sought love in places. that love didn't exist. I felt, I sought love in places where there was only hate, where there was only hurt, where there was only pain. And so I started having sexual experiences and romantic experiences with men at far too young an age. I had boyfriends who were 16, 17 when I was 12. and my parents didn't support any of this. In fact, they tried to make sure that I couldn't talk to these men.

So they kind of had an idea, but you would like, would you try to hide it? Oh, I had a secret phone. Okay. I had, I kept it all secret. But these boys were teaching me things about sex and bodies and autonomy that, or lack of autonomy, that I didn't understand, but that stuck with me. Yeah. I felt like if a man didn't show interest in me, then I was unworthy of being interesting.

I thought that if this 18-year-old boy cheated on me or wasn't interested in me any longer, then I wasn't worthy of living. Because I truly felt like I had no reason to exist beyond the love of someone else and the love that someone else could give me. Because I was looking for it everywhere. You know, in fifth grade, I was looking for it in my friends who were beautiful and I felt like the outsider. I remember in fifth grade, we would get our school pictures taken. I don't know if you went to a public school and you got school pictures.

Yeah. And modeling agencies would contact these girls in my class after they saw their pictures and be like, you should model for us. And I remember being the only one that didn't get a call. And I thought, well, I'm ugly. I'm worthless. And it just kept reinstilling these negative self, this negative self-talk that I constantly perpetuated in my own head for the rest of my life. Yeah.

Even until now. And I don't want to interrupt you. And this is like, this just came in my head. Sure. Because like, and as you get older, you just realize things. And it's something that I want to say to you and just like anybody listening, I think that there's this idea. of what beautiful is.

Like, and I think a lot of people are guilty of it, like myself included. It's like you think you need to have like the big, like pouty lips and like the perfect face and hair and all this stuff because that's what beautiful, you know, that's what we're meant to think it is. You're in shape and you're this and you're that. But the older I've gotten and just throughout life, like I've realized like in my opinion, some of the most unique and beautiful people are the ones that look different from that. And I say that because like you're a perfect example like your hair.

Like I love your hair and like where your tattoos are and the placement. Like I wish that I had the balls to like get a neck tattoo and like want to have it for the rest of my life. You know what I mean? So it's like that's just something that I just wanted to say because I think that it's so normal. And unfortunately, but it's normal for people to look at like the prettiest, like think the prettiest girl in the room is the one with like that looks perfect. But in actuality, I feel like the most. unique and beautiful people.

They're usually like beautiful people within. Yeah. And then it makes them, it makes everything, because you can be the prettiest person and have the ugliest personality and it just ruins everything. Right. But I just, I don't know, something I realize is I usually find them the people that are the most beautiful to me and like unique are the ones that don't fit that mold.

Yeah. People who burn down the boxes. Right. They're more interesting too. I agree with you. I completely agree with you. But it wasn't until a few years ago. ago that I finally was able to figure that out for myself.

I think too, like you said, sorry, I'm really not trying to talk to you. I think too like you said, when you're seeing men or young boys, especially in school, like flock to those girls, it's almost impossible not to think, well, that is what I'm supposed to look like because it's that validation that you like. And I think, too, even if you have a perfect upbringing, naturally, if that's what you see and you see that these guys are always going for the certain girl that looks like this or has this, it's like you're going to start to think, well, if I don't have that, I'm not I'm not good enough.

Or that that's the only way to get to where you want to be. Yeah. So I remember being in high school, being in middle school, sobbing over piles of clothes that were as tall as me. I had an addiction to buying clothes every day because I thought that if I wore a new outfit to school, that people would like me. I had bleached my hair, hair extensions.

I was 90 pounds. I wasn't eating. I wore makeup and woke up at 4 o'clock in the morning to get ready every day for school, I was convinced that if I didn't look, if I didn't make myself as small as possible, and that's kind of what shrinking yourself is, right? Dying your hair, stripping the color from your hair, stripping the weight from your body. It's making yourself, for me, it was making myself smaller. And so when eventually I started talking to boys who wanted me, I thought, well, I've done it. I've accomplished it. I've made myself into the version

that people will accept and will like. But I was still really, really sad. The sadness didn't go away. The depression didn't go away. It usually doesn't. You could have everything and still be the saddest person ever. No. In fact, I think the closer I got to what I thought I should look like for other people, the farther away I got from feeling any semblance of myself. So when I was 14, I started talking to a boy who was my age, but a year younger than me, he had stayed back. And we started having sort of like a flirtatious sexual relationship. For 14, that's because young. but I had been in seventh grade and we had gone on a field trip and a boy and I had kissed

on the field trip. Sounds like me. I did the same thing. Yeah. Listen. We all kiss. And the boy went on to tell people that we had had sex on the field trip. That's nice of him.

Yeah. He told everyone. And so being a seventh grader, I was basically labeled. like Hester print, the scarlet letter, slut, whore. Everyone thought that I was disgusting. I got a detention in school, even though I was a good student. I got a detention because of that whole experience. And so my very first kiss that I ever had essentially slut shamed me into nothingness.

I hated myself because I thought. that everyone hated me. And so eventually when I started talking to this other boy, the boy who eventually went on to share my naked pictures, all I was looking for was some semblance of safety, some semblance of being seen, heard, cared about, loved. And I knew in my heart of hearts that he couldn't give that to me. I'm Anna Garcia, host of True Crime News, the podcast. Every week we bring you in-depth coverage on cases making headlines. as well as those that go under the radar. Tune in for murders that defy explanation,

mystery seeking exploration, and shocking secrets that will leave you breathless. Each week, we honor the victims by going beyond the salacious in our search for justice. Crime never stops, and neither do we. Listen to true crime news available now wherever you get your podcast.

But I would have looked for it anywhere. Yeah. You know, when, I think when you're young and you want to be accepted, you will look for it in the most inconvenient places. I think too when you have a lack of like what you were saying before, like identity and who you are and self-worth. How to get that word. I knew I was going to mess it up.

I think that that's when you tend to seek those things. And like you said, you're going to go for it anywhere that it's available. Even if you know deep down, well, this isn't the best option. but that's just how, I think that's how we operate. It is that like safety net and that comfort. Yeah. In that form of validation. Yeah, exactly.

It's validation. And he validated for me that I was worthy or that I was hot at the very least. And for me, hotness, equaled worthiness as a 14-year-old. And so this boy pressured me over Facebook Messenger for over the course of a year while we were talking to send him nude pictures of myself. Did he go to your school too? He did. Okay.

He did. We went to the same school, although he was in and out of school for behavioral issues and things like that. So I didn't see him very much, but we talked often on Facebook. He was popular in like a popular bad boy type of way. And I just felt better about myself being acknowledged by him. which I think saying that out loud sounds so sad, but like that's where I was. The little crumbs of love and acknowledgement were something that I was eagerly consuming because I had none of it. And so I said no to sending him the pictures of myself four months.

And then eventually every time I would say no, he would stop showing interest in me. He would kind of stop talking to me. and I thought, you know, I want to keep this boy around. I want him to like me. Maybe I want to be his girlfriend. Maybe he'll ask me out if I do this. And so I eventually sent him four nude pictures of myself. This is the most embarrassing part of it.

And I don't think I talk about that I've ever said this, but it was actually in like a photo collage like we made in middle school, like four pictures. Yeah. Yeah, it was a nude photo collage. four pictures of me my breasts my face were in all of the pictures so i was completely recognizable and i took them on my iPad because again we're 14 um and i sent them to him and his immediate reaction was you know not satisfied he wasn't satisfied he wanted to show pictures of my vagina and I remember so clearly being in my bathroom of my childhood home trying to like maneuver my legs

to take a picture with my iPad of my vagina. But I was so ashamed. It felt gross and I was like, this isn't pretty. I think mainly if I had thought that my vagina was prettier, I would have sent the pictures. But I was so ashamed with how my body looked. that I didn't. So it wasn't even that he had asked too much of me. It was that I was still so sure that my body wasn't worthy.

And I think too. And I think I saw a documentary on this, but so many women won't even look at their vaginas because they feel like it's just gross or weird. And like obviously if you think about what it is, it's like our whole body is like outside skin. And then we have a vagina that's like, so much more than that.

Right. But like, and it really isn't the most, I mean, we can all love our bodies, but it isn't the most pretty thing necessarily. I mean, granted, there are some porn pussies that look perfect. But, you know, like, I don't know. I just think that like for a lot of people, even if they like their body, it can be hard to like, I mean, you stick a phone down there. It ain't looking to.

I'm the first to tell you. Like, it is not the prettiest looking. Like, I don't even want to send something like that. votes at the time to like someone that I'm dating that I trust and that I love like you know what I mean it's like even with somebody's down there I'm like it's like it's something that I think it's just I mean that's your private part yes you know like I don't know and especially being so young yeah and being from like such a conservative small town like we weren't taught about bodies right our sex ed was basically like splitting up the girls and the boys and the girls watch this

video and whatever and you're always taught that you are well also you don't ever look like the diagrams no no like that makes it look like a Barbie right but right so either way I was here just thinking like I can't show these pictures with my vagina um but I wanted to and I didn't um and so after I had sent him the four pictures and I had said I wouldn't send him anymore he kind of got mad and he I don't remember exactly what happened. This was over 10 years ago, but he eventually stopped talking to me. And I assumed, you know, I had done what he asked of me. I had sent the pictures, but clearly they weren't enough.

They weren't what he really wanted. And I remember making him promise that if I sent him these pictures that he wouldn't show anyone and he laughed at me. He was like, of course I wouldn't show anyone. Like, are you serious? Like, I'm not like that. And so I was like, okay, I trust you. I didn't even know that what ended up happening to me was something that happened.

I was just being careful. And so then after we stopped talking because I hadn't satisfied his urges with the pictures, I started to live my life in high school. I started coming out. I started realizing that I was gay. I was having relationships with women on like tumble. and like long distance relationships and really figuring out my identity. But in my school, my public hometown school, I was still talking to boys, trying to get that

attention because I felt like I just felt so unlovable and so unsure of who I was. So it wasn't until, I don't know, maybe a few weeks or a few months later, that I started to show interest in other people that weren't this boy who I had sent the nude photos to. And he got angry at me showing attention to other people or at me coming out as being gay because word was starting to spread that I was gay. And he told me that he was going to ruin my life. And I didn't know what that meant. But I was sitting in science class in my high school in our school. chem class or something. And my best friend who was on the football team took out his phone and showed me my nude images. And, you know, I said, where did you, where did you get those? He said,

the boy had sent them to everyone on the football team on Facebook Messenger and that they basically used Facebook Messenger as a group chat to send nude photos of girls in our high school like they were trading cards. And I think I blacked out for like that whole moment. Like I don't remember the rest of the chemistry class. It was a long class. But in my gut, I was just feeling like devastation and also like death. I remember going into the music department, which was my safe place as a theater person,

as a queer person, and just like trying to throw up. But nothing could come out. But do you know the feeling of like, feeling like you have so much inside of you, you're just trying to get it to, like, you need to take an excavator and like get it out. And I couldn't.

It was just, it was just sitting there, this shame, this dread, this, everyone has seen me naked. And then walking around the hallways in school, people started to look at me differently as if they had seen me naked because they did. And at that point, all I knew was that the photos have been sent

to this group chat on Facebook. And then I started getting messages from people in other towns, people that I had went to school with before, people who had known me from theater, whatever. And they told me that they had seen the pictures and that they wanted me to know that my pictures had been uploaded to an international image board where they were being shared and re-uploaded with my name. And so someone sent me a link and I remember clicking on it and going to the website and scrolling down. And this website categorized images of predominantly young women in high school by country, state, town, school, and then included their names as well.

So there was no way to not know that Leah from Wolkett in Connecticut, you know, was me. It had my full name and my face. And you would scroll and there would be other girls that you knew. It felt like I don't even, I can't explain to you what it felt like because it was almost like scrolling through watching ghosts. of women that you knew, not knowing if they knew that their bodies are being exploited. And what's horrible, too, is, like, especially when you're that young and you don't know what to do and you, there's so many things that play a part. It's like the fear of, okay, well, what if my family or my parents find out?

And then it's the shame of the whole school having seen that and just feeling so exposed and, like, basically like a laughing joke in a way. And it's horrible because I don't think people realize this. I mean, there's movies about it. But I don't think people really realize this. And this is only one example. But like people take their lives over that. And I don't really get the, I mean, I hate to say this.

But like boys will be boys. Yeah. Then they don't really get it. But like I don't understand why like the human body is such a, like, why that has to be a thing where it's like, oh, I sent it out. And like, you know what I mean? It's, it's so, it's, it's, it's, it's, it blew.

I mean, granted, obviously, like we said, we're older now. You see things so much differently. Like, when you're a kid and the word sex or penis is talked about in school, you laugh. Yeah. You know, and I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't think kids. I think this should be more talked about, like, kids don't realize the things that they do and say to other kids, like, you can literally, like, you don't have to, like, you don't have to,

you necessarily like pull a trigger or like do something but like you can be the reason why somebody dies and it's hard i think it's horrible it's horrible and that's i mean my story i'll tell you more that it almost got there yeah i because i can imagine that like you just don't know what else to do no especially being that young i didn't want to tell my parents i didn't want to tell school administrators. I didn't want to tell a teacher. I didn't tell anyone. The only person who knew was my best friend. And of course, all of the kids who had seen the pictures, but no one who could have actually helped me knew. And that was because I remember when I was in middle school, I had seen a girl being taken out of the school by the police for sending nude pictures to her boyfriend in middle

school. She was arrested. And I thought, well, I'm going to get arrested for sending these pictures. I produced child pornography. Even though it was a picture of myself, it was sent consensually and then it was disseminated non-consensually. So the photos ended up on this international website that still exists today. And they stayed up on that website for well over five years, I would say. I remember trying to contact the website, and they asked me to send them a photo of myself, holding up a picture with the date on it, like I was a hostage, to prove that it was me asking for my photos to be taken down, even though I was underage in the photos.

I didn't consent to it. And eventually the pictures got taken down, but then they would just get re-uploaded because there were so many people who had them in their possession at this point. And so at that point, I just felt like there's nothing I can do. These pictures are always going to be out there. So I just started making myself smaller. I lost all my friends. I started thinking about suicide frequently.

I self-harmed. I gained a lot of weight. I stopped doing my physical. routine of, you know, getting ready at four o'clock in the morning, I just, I didn't want to show any attention to myself. I started wearing high neck clothing because I was afraid of showing my boobs because I just didn't want to give anyone a reason to harass me further. I just wanted to be as small as possible. And that ended up really damaging me for a long time because it stripped my voice. And I've always said since that, you know, this boy, he stole my body, but he can never

steal my voice. But for those five or six years that I was so terrified of anything happening in those pictures leaking or my parents finding out I was completely letting myself be blackmailed essentially by him into silence. I started drinking alcohol too much. I would get drunk in college and blackout, be crying to my friends and just in so much deep pain because I knew that these photos were existing. I knew that my body had been exploited

and was actively being disseminated around the world. nothing I could do. So I wanted to die. I was actively trying to die. I finally moved out of my small hometown to go to college and I moved away and did that. But nothing was better because I was still being exploited. And then one day I was in my college dorm room. I was 19. I opened my computer and I went to Facebook and I saw the mugshot of the boy who had shared my naked pictures years earlier on a news article. He was on the run for sexually assaulting a minor and the police were after him. And so people were sharing it like if you've seen him.

And my whole body froze in that moment. Like imagine just seeing like your perpetrator's face staring back at you on your Facebook screen. Like first of all, it was very triggering. But then I realized that. not holding him accountable years ago allowed him to continue going on and harming other people, other young girls, other vulnerable people. And so that's when I realized that it had been so long since this had happened.

And so much more harm had continued to happen as a result that I had to do something. I had to speak up. And so that's when I finally started to take my voice back. I wrote a poem that's in my book. It's called The Artist. And it starts with to the boy who posted my naked pictures online. And it was essentially a letter to him in the form of a poem that told my story, that told the story of the exploitation and the abuse that had happened to me. And I performed the poem in front of the White House.

I traveled to Washington, D.C. As part of the Brave New Voices International Youth Slam Poetry Competition, I was on Connecticut's youth team. And I made a sign that said end revenge porn, and I held it up, and I screamed my poem in front of the White House for all of the tourists to hear. They were probably also traumatized. And in that moment, I was like,

nobody is ever going to take my voice again. it's just never going to happen. I can't let it happen because no matter what happens to my body, no matter what happens to my pictures, my voice, my stories, my stories, my legacy. And so from that moment forward, I realized that it was my responsibility to carry on the legacy of my younger self, to be a champion for my younger self, and to reclaim the childhood that was stolen from me. So that's what I did.

That's incredible. And I think, too, that something that people need to realize is that, because I think, like I said, in those moments when you are so young, you don't really know any better. Like, anything like that that happens is terrifying and confusing. And I think that it can take a lot of years to reach the point of feeling like, okay, I'm ready to take my voice back and take a stand. And I think it's okay because, like, yes, like you said, obviously seeing his phone. photo in your mind, I think you might have maybe felt some sort of guilt of like, oh, I should have stopped him years ago. But like you are a human too and you need to take time to process.

And what happened to you was damaging and traumatizing. So it's like you'd have to be like a really strong, ballsy person to be like, this person did this and I want him to have consequent. Like I also think you have to be at a certain maturity level and age and you were young. You were 14. Yeah. So it's like you're. you're still a kid.

Like, how do you know what to do? So, but like I said, I think, and this is what I always tell people, it's never too late. You know what I mean? And whether it's him or somebody else that you don't even know, it's like speaking out gives other people the courage to speak out and take their voice back. No matter what phase they are in life.

I did have a question, though. When all of this was happening, did you ever say anything to him? Like, did you ever confront him? That's a great question. No, I didn't. Essentially, I stopped talking to him. I was terrified of talking to him. But what I did was see him in the hallways at school and, again, make myself smaller.

There's this one visceral memory that I have during lunchtime at school when no one was in the hallways, everyone was in the cafeteria, and I went back up to my locker. upstairs. And when I was walking back down towards the cafeteria, he was walking in the same direction as me, right towards me. We were the only two in the hallway. It could have been a movie and our eyes locked. This was after he had already shared my photos and I was terrified. And instead of calling him out, instead of saying, you know, what are you doing? You're hurting me. How can I, Instead of even begging him to stop, I just held the door open for him and let him go down the stairs to the cafeteria in silence. I did something polite for the person who is actively exploiting me.

And I have a lot of grace for myself for that. I think about that a lot because it's something that I wish I could change. But at the same time, I think it shows that victims and survivors of sexual violence, like leaving an abuser or even standing up to yourself against an abuser is like a mammoth task. And we shouldn't feel guilty for not being able to do it or not being able to hold that moment and say, I'm going to take control of the situation. We should never feel guilty over that because when exploitation happens, at least for me, it felt like it took. took a chunk out of my soul that I will never get back.

And so trying to navigate the world with like a chunk missing and that whole being filled with like buzzing anxiety, buzzing grief, buzzing terror. It's like how are you supposed to then stand up for yourself? You have to wait, or at least for me, I had to wait until I was more healed or less afraid to be able to speak out. I don't even think the healing happened until far later. I'm still not healed. But it was when the fear subsided.

When I knew he was being pursued by the police, when I knew that other people knew the bad things that he had done, I finally felt like I could speak out. So I did. And I wrote the poem and posted on Facebook about what had happened to me. And I started to get lots and lots of support. And how old were you at this? time?

19. Okay. So I was a freshman in college. And I decided that I was going to do something because I knew in that moment that something needed to be done. I will say, though, going back that at the time that all this happened to me, I didn't even know that revenge porn, quote unquote, was a thing. I didn't know it was a crime. And now we call revenge porn image-based sexual abuse or technical abuse.

facilitated gender-based violence. Because the word revenge porn is really, while it makes sense to a lot of people, I didn't do anything to warrant revenge. And my body in itself is not inherently pornographic. So the word just, it doesn't, I think it does more harm than good now. But I didn't even know that that word existed. Right. I didn't, when I would search on my computer, like my nude pictures, were posted, what do I do?

Nothing, no resources would come up. Everything that would come up was like Reddit forums that were like, I got kicked out of school or I lost my job because my ex shared my nude photos. And so I was terrified that I would never be able to get into college. I would never be able to get a job. I would never be able to find a partner because all of this was meant to ruin my life. And I do believe that that's what his intention was. but I have taken back my life in a way that I don't think he ever could have imagined.

Yeah. And that is powerful. Powerful. That is, I think, like, what I'm here for. So I, at 19, decided to host a protest march across the Brooklyn Bridge. I called it the March Against Revenge Porn. And I planned it for like six months. We're going to march across the Brooklyn Bridge holding a big banner that said,

you know, end revenge porn and chanting and cheering. It got the attention of CNN. And CNN did a whole segment on it and followed and came to the march. And it was, it was incredible. It was taking my voice back. My family, my parents, they marched across the bridge with me, holding tambourines and signs. And I never could have imagined at 14 that I would have had so much support from my family

and my friends. That was my other question for you. When it came to your parents, did you tell them or did they find out? Yeah. So this is my story, I will say, I'm going back and forth between the different timelines. No, you're great though. It's very easy to follow. Okay.

Well, so when I was in college, right before I decided to tell my story, right after I saw his mugshot and I decided to start speaking out, I called my mom. And I told her what had happened. So this was five years later. And I talked to her outside of the cafeteria in my college for about an hour. And at first she was pissed. She was mad. She thought, you know, I raised you better than to send pictures, whatever.

Same with my dad. My dad was really, he didn't know what to think. I feel like that would be a lot of parents. Yeah, I think it was shocking. It was shocking because not only is like your child telling you something bad that happened to them but this has been going on for five years and it's like an international thing and but after that hour or so of talking to them they were very supportive they wanted to help me and eventually after hearing my poetry and hearing my story and seeing all of the ways that I was making a

difference. They really started to support me and now they're my biggest supporters. Yeah, that's amazing. So they marched across the Brooklyn Bridge with me and that was just, it was amazing. It was amazing. And a few weeks later, I got a call from the office of New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio at the time. And they told me that New York City was passing legislation to criminalize revenge porn in the city. And I don't take any credit. for that because there were so many lawyers and advocates doing that work. But I do think that the visibility of the march across the Brooklyn Bridge that made national news, BBC, CNN, like all of this, all of this coverage that it got, I think really

moved the needle and helped to get that legislation to feel like it was in the appropriate time to pass. Well, I can't believe that the website didn't get shut down. because it's underage. So here's the next part of the story. The website did get raided and shut down by the Dutch police in 2018. So what happened is this website is on an international server. So it's hosted by people in other countries.

And so that's why it's impossible nearly for it to get taken down. But it was raided by Dutch police in 2018 and all the picture, the website was closed. All the pictures were down. And I had every reason to believe that my picture. were no longer there. So I breathed the sigh of relief. But the website is back up under a new handle, and they now have a paywall where you can see all historic images from the past.

So I haven't, you know, obviously accessed the website. I'm not going to pay to look for my pictures. but essentially the website and all historic content is still up there if you pay for it. So it's horrendous. And it's horrible because they know people will. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And as soon as one of the websites gets taken down, another one pops up in its place. Because there's, I mean, if you think of like Andrew Tate has an army of followers who will, you know, come in his place and perpetuate. his ideology of hatred. Similarly, these image-based sexual abuse sites, when you cut off the head, another one grows instantly. And another site pops up and the pictures get re-uploaded. And it's almost inescapable.

Right. And if it's not there, then it's redded or it's something else. And there's always somewhere that you can find them. Right. And so now I'm at this point where I'm just like, like, I've, transformed my body into something that looks nothing like the person that I was when I was 14. And so if my photos are still out there, I'm very much at peace with it, knowing that I did nothing wrong, knowing that that wasn't at all my fault. And also knowing that whoever is still

consuming those photos, it says so much more about them than it does about me for having them in the first place. I agree. And I think too, something that's difficult that we're not really ever taught is, and I think this, it doesn't even matter what age you are. I think that when you're just younger, you don't really know as much. But I feel like even when you're, whether you're dating someone in your 14 or you're dating someone, you're 45, in my opinion, naked pictures, that's a very normal thing to go back

and forth with somebody that you like, that you're dating because, I mean, in my opinion, Like I said, at whatever age, if they're seeing you naked in person, then it's like, okay, sure, I'll send it. Like, in your head, it's like you think it's innocent and fun and you trust these people. And it's like, it's unfortunate that we're not taught about what can happen or what can go wrong or the risk that you're taking. And I feel like that's something that like one day if I have kids, like that's what I would say. Like I wouldn't really say like, don't do it because I've been there and I've done it. You know what I mean? And it's like you can't really expect whether it's your child or your friend or a random person not to do it.

But it's more so like knowing like if you choose to do this, this is what can happen and this is what can follow. And like not even that it's your fault, but just know that like unfortunately this is the world we live in. You know what I mean? And I think that that's not something we're taught and we're not really taught that like in relationships like yeah, you're going to want to share, you know, more sacred parts of yourself and your body. But like make sure that you're doing those things in the right ways and that you trust these. It's like it's just so many parts of relationships that we're not really taught ever. Like you kind of have to learn it on your own and either you luck out and you send a picture and it doesn't go around the school or you send it to the wrong person and it does.

Right. You know what I mean? And I think though that your story is so powerful because like you said, you did take your voice back and you ended up almost like speaking out for so many people that like this is, I know. I can confidently say this is something that happens to so many people. And either, like I said, I think it takes a certain breed of person to just at that age, especially to be like, oh, I don't care. You know what I mean?

But I think a lot of people probably just shut off and become silent. And they're like, well, should it happen? But they have to keep going. And they, I think that, like you said, like a lot of people, like, they might forget about it as time goes on or like heal. But do you ever really heal from like bad things that happen? Like, I don't think you do. Like, I think you learn to cope with them and kind of get more comfortable with what's happened.

But I think it's really hard to, like, fully actually heal from something negative or bad or painful that's happened. You kind of just learn from it. But I think that there's a lot of people that this has probably happened to that they just have never spoken out to anyone. They just kind of accepted it for what it was, you know? So I think it's really powerful and amazing that you took the stand that you did in so many different ways.

Yeah, I just think that's amazing. Thank you. I mean, it's trauma. And that's something that I didn't realize until a few years ago, working in trauma therapy to heal my childhood trauma and the trauma that I had as a young adult. And the trauma that I've had as an adult, you know, I was sexually assaulted when I was in 2021 by a boy from my hometown who went to my high school. it felt like the same reliving of trauma again. And it wasn't until poetry and speaking and telling my story

that I felt like I was able to unravel that ball of fiery anxiety in my chest and put it out into the world as something good. I think too something that is unfortunate is that because those pictures of you, were out there and because you even sent them that like for example that boy thought not the one that sent it the one that you're just talking about in 2020 2021 yeah like that he thought that oh because that's out there like I can do this to her do you know what I mean like that's another thing I'll never get but no it's unfortunate and that's why I think what you're talking about when we're raising a new generation of Americans I mean Americans are online now more than ever before because of COVID and just because of

isolation. I think that things like cyber sex education need to be in public schools. I think we need to talk about how to, what to do if there is an active exploitation. I think putting a band-aid on the situation by saying don't send nude pictures in the first place, don't be sexually active, don't do XYZ is really detrimental and leads young people to do those things, but then be silent about them when bad things happen. Well, also I think the lack of conversation in schools and how, like I was saying, like, when you're a kid and you eventually are in sex ed class and it's like certain words are mentioned and everybody's giggling or feels uncomfortable, I feel like the lack of that conversation makes it more taboo and leads to more things where like the body is more sexualized and viewed as more like, oh, like this is something bad, but like it doesn't have to be. Like every single person has a body and a penis or vagina or boobs or like whatever. It's just like, I just feel like if it's talked about more openly, like obviously when

you're having sex, like, yeah, it's a sexual thing. But it's just like I feel like it's viewed as such a section. It's so sexualized that it's like it gives people this power, especially like men. People won't always, they don't like, but it's true. But I think it gives them this power of like, well, if I, like I can hold this against you. And I can ruin your life if I post your naked body. But it's just like, like I said, I just feel like if it wasn't so sexualized, the power wouldn't still be there. No, you're exactly right.

Because if we didn't feel as if bodies are so taboo, if we didn't feel like bodies were so dangerous or so sexualized in such a negative way, then exploiting someone wouldn't be as powerful a way. You wouldn't feel like you were ending someone's life by exploiting their body. Right. But really, we all have bodies. You're right. have bodies and the way that I've healed is by turning my body into what I what I say about my tattoos is that I the way that my body looks now is like my soul on the inside is on the outside. I have messages of healing all over myself, daily reminders and people look at me differently.

People say, you know, oh, do you regret those tattoos? I love them. I always have said tattoos create such character. Thank you. It builds a story too. Exactly. But I would rather have a heavily tattooed body than no body. And for half of my life, I didn't think I was going to survive.

I didn't think I would make it to 18 or 20 or 24 or 26. Like it's a miracle that I'm here today. And so the way my body looks and the way my body is perceived by others is like the very last possible thing that I could care about. I'm trying to get my mind in a comfortable healed place. I'm trying to make my body feel like a good place to live in. And that's all that I care about now. That's my responsibility to myself and to my younger self is making sure that this body is a home for myself.

And that even if it is exploited again, even if I am assaulted again, you never know what's going to happen, but that my body is, not only a place of resilience, but a place of just joy. And that joy can't be taken from me no matter what someone physically does to me. And so that's kind of where I'm at. That's amazing.

Yeah. Seriously. And you're so, you're such a good speaker and you're so good at telling your story. And that's hard to do. It's really not easy. And it's like I really appreciate it too because I, It teaches me so much. And I'm not just amazing when somebody really just like has, because it's hard.

Like I think especially when you go through something to really gather all your thoughts and be able to speak about them in a way that can make other people understand. And you really, you crushed it. Thank you. Amazing. Of course. So your first poem is in this book. It is.

And then you wrote all the other ones as well. Yeah. So this is my first book. It has like 50 or so poems about. everything from mental health to exploitation, motherhood, grief, gender, sexuality, all of it. But the first poem is in there. And what's so funny is that I performed that poem outside of the White House seven years ago.

And then back in June of this year, I was actually invited to the White House to speak for the White House Gender Policy Council about my recommendations for ending. image-based sexual abuse and revenge porn. So I went from standing outside seven years ago with a sign, just screaming my story to being invited inside to talk about how my lived experience translates to actual policy change. And so I can't say enough to people listening or watching that whether it takes

one year or seven years or 50 years, like that full circle moment will happen for you as long as you keep consistently telling your story, using your voice, amplifying the voices of others and like trying to do the next right thing. You're incredible. You're incredible. You have Juliet's hearing. No, like seriously, like you're and you're like, I always say this to people too, but like you're still so young and I feel like you've done so much. And it's crazy to me that you already have almost had. You're going to keep having those full circle moments. But like the fact that you already had that is like it's really, really crazy. Thank you.

And it's like you are a perfect example of someone that took something negative and made it like more than positive. Like you're using your voice and like in such an incredible way. And a lot of like I said, not only is that hard, but a lot of people don't even like get that opportunity, which is just wild to me. And you're like I said, you are such a good speaker. Thank you. Really.

I mean, I feel deeply privileged. Like I if I wasn't, if I didn't have the economic opportunity that I did to go to college or if I wasn't white or whatever the case may be, my personal privilege, I wouldn't have necessarily had the opportunities. But I will say that every opportunity that I have had, I've made for myself. I was in a viral BuzzFeed video about my experience a few years ago. I emailed them and I said, would you be interested in hearing about my story? Like all of these opportunities I made for myself because I believe in my heart of hearts that my story is one that matters. And everyone has one. Everyone has a story that matters. This

matters. This matters. This exchange matters. And so it's stories of pain turning them into power by talking about them radically and honestly and rawly. It will shift the narrative. It will move the needle. And it will honestly change the world. I've seen it happen for myself. And I can say with absolute certainty that it could happen for anyone who's gone through a traumatic experience. Absolutely. And I'm so happy that you wanted to come on here and share your story. You did amazing, seriously. Thank you.

And thank you so much for sharing. We are going to link your book. Sure. Website, whatever, anything you want in the bio. Yeah, you seriously did an incredible. And I'm so seriously, thank you so much for coming on here. Thank you for having me. Of course.

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you, DeMora. Of course.