We're All Insane - Witnessing a Shotgun Suicide

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

In this emotional and deeply personal story, Ally recounts the heartbreaking moment she witnessed her close friend take his own life. Through her perspective, we explore the pain, confusion, and trauma that comes with such a devastating experience. This video is a reflection on mental health struggles, the importance of reaching out for help, and the lasting impact of suicide on those left behind. If you or someone you know is struggling, remember that there are people who care and resources available. Ally's Links: Instagram: allykeoghh TedTalk: https://youtu.be/Mo_mgcxGYYE?si=i07V9EhmnXgJ9NRe Article on EMDR Therapy: https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments/eye-movement-reprocessing If you have a unique story you'd like to share on the podcast, please fill out this form: https://forms.gle/ZiHgdoK4PLRAddiB9 or send an email to [e-mail] Business Inquiries please contact: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, it's me Devorah. I just dropped an all new bonus episode inside my new subscription channel, We're All Insane Plus. This week's bonus episode is called My Brain was slipping into my spine. Listen now by subscribing to We're All Insane Plus inside your Spotify or Apple Podcasts app or go to we're all insane.com. My name is Ali and when I was 15 years old, I witnessed a suicide. I was born into a family with two loving parents. My dad was a Marine. My mom was a stay-at-home mom, and we had a lot of fun. My dad's parents came to America from Ireland by themselves when they were in their 20s. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. And so all my family lives in Ireland. Most of them still do. Some of them live in other parts of the world, but we're the only ones in America. It's

just my dad's family. Have you visited Ireland? Yeah. How is it? I was always. I was I always wanted to go. I would totally recommend it. I want to go back. Oh, it looks so beautiful. Yeah, all my family is there, all my dad's cousins and stuff like that. But yeah, his siblings all live here. So it's just my dad's like immediate family.

I have two brothers, one older brother, one younger brother. And I have a sister. She joined her family a little bit later. But we have the best family. We have so much fun together. Growing up, I was always really, really close with my little brother. brother, we were best friends. We would always play together, all that kind of stuff. We love to ski as a family. We go skiing every year. We go to Colorado. We've been all over. As a kid, I was really

happy, happy kid, empathetic. Our dad, since he was in the military, he was really tough. He was really strict. Everything had to be by the book. He always pushed us to do our best in everything, whether it was sports or church, school, it was just very typical military household. I was born in Pennsylvania and my older brother was born in North Carolina, but then once we moved to Virginia, we didn't move around anymore.

So we were at one house for like seven years, which is not typical for a military household at all. Usually you're moving every two years. But by that point, my dad had already been in the military for a long time. They got married young and then waited to have kids. So by the point that they were having kids at, the job that my dad was at,

he didn't have to move around as much anymore. He did get deployed for a year when I was like six to seven. And that was hard, but I don't remember, like it wasn't as impactful. So we were in Virginia in one house for like seven years. And then when I was at that house, I went to two different schools only because of like rezoning issues. So I was at one school for kindergarten first grade. And then I went to a different school for second grade.

And then he retired. And I went to a different school for third, fourth, and fifth. But that didn't really bother me. Elementary school was really pretty easy for me. I loved elementary school. I had lots of friends. When I was in third grade, going into third grade, my dad retired from the military, and he started his own government contracting business. And so my mom retired as a full-time stay-at-home mom, and she started working for my dad.

And both of them were basically working full-time. Mom was a little bit less than full-time. So she was always there to get us to school. She was always there when we came home from school. And, yeah, elementary school was pretty good. I was still best friends with my little brother, Aiden. We would have sleepovers. We would play with Barbies, Legos, everything.

He was my best friend. My older brother, he was the older brother. He would take the third parent role, even though he's only three years older than us. Well, older than me. But, yeah, we were never as close as Aiden and I were, but he was. he had all of his friends. He was doing baseball and Boy Scouts, all that kind of stuff. Then going into middle school, I was so excited. I ready for something new. It was the first time I had real kind of different change. I was very excited, you know. Sixth grade was really cool. It was fun.

It was interesting. I don't really remember much about it. Yeah. But I did make some really good friends that year. It was me and then two other girls. In about halfway through sixth grade, one of those girls had a friend moving into town. And so she was joining the school too. And so then by the end of sixth grade, the four of us were just best friends. And we had a really good time together. And then once I started about seventh grade was when I kind of started to struggle a little bit. There was just drama with friends, family grades, just hard age. Yeah. Basically. basic puberty things. But my grades did start to drop a little bit and that was really hard for me because I never had anything that I struggled with really. But about that same time

was when I started to not really feel like myself anymore. I was getting sad and I didn't really know what was going on. And the grades dropping just like didn't help. And it like, wasn't anything crazy, but it was enough for my dad to be like, that's not okay. You can't, we don't do that. And I was embarrassed. And around that time, I started to not get along very well with Joey, my older brother. We were never like super close, like I said, like Aiden and I were really close, but it was never like a problem until about seventh grade. He, was in 10th grade, I guess, and he was just a teenager, and I was a preteen. And so we were just budding heads all the time. He would say things and they would hurt my feelings. And I just felt

like he was just so mean all the time. And because of that, I just felt like I started to get more sad. I didn't want to be around my family because I would just get my feelings hurt. And so then Aiden and I started to drift a little bit too. We weren't getting to be as close anymore. I was spending a lot of time with my friends to try and not be home with my older brother because I didn't want to get my feelings hurt. And mental health was never something foreign or like not real in our family, but it just was never something that we had had to deal with before. And so I was confused why I was feeling this way and I didn't talk to anybody in my family about it because it just wasn't something that I really knew about.

And so I just attributed, like, feeling sad to struggling in school. And I was disappointing my parents and making it harder on my siblings because when one of us wasn't doing well, everybody in the family would know about it. And that wasn't, like, a huge deal that everybody would know about it. But it would be like, okay, guys, like, you need to remember that there are standards in this household that you need to be meeting. And it made it harder on my siblings too because my parents would be like grumpy about it. And I felt like our family was falling apart because of me.

And that was not true. Family was not falling apart. But 12-year-old me, this was the end of the world. We would have normal friend problems. You know, there was normal girl drama. It would feel like, nobody likes me. I'm not good enough. Just normal pre-teen things.

but to me it was the end of the world. I remember in seventh grade, my parents made me come to a meeting with all of my teachers to discuss my grades and how to get them up and just basically be like, what can we be doing more of, how can we do this? And again, it was not like, I wasn't failing my classes, but it just wasn't up to their standards.

And it wasn't, they weren't perfect. And, I mean, it was enough to be like, okay, she could definitely use some help here. But I was like, this is not necessary. Yeah. But it's fine. I think I hid not being okay pretty well at that point because I didn't want to be more of a disappointment. You know, my grades were already not great. I didn't want it to be another thing that people were worrying about for me.

And so about that time with our older brother, we were all kind of on edge around him. So we decided that we should maybe go see a family therapist. And we did that for probably a couple months. We would all go in and we would talk and we'd be like working, just working through like normal family things. And it was great. Like we had really worked on a lot of things within the family. and like my siblings and I were getting along again and I was feeling like, okay,

like we're implementing the things that we were learning at home. Do you think that helped your mental health at all? Yeah, because after a little while, I built up the courage to ask to go to therapy on my own. Good. Yeah, because I was like, after going through therapy and talking with my friends and stuff, I was like, okay, like I'm not the only one that's feeling this way within my friend group,

but I'm definitely not able to do this on my own. Yeah. And so I went to our family therapist for a little while. And she was great. And then in eighth grade, things started to turn a corner and I was feeling better. I had solid friends, the same group of four friends. We were hanging out all the time. We were all so excited to start high school.

They were also all close with my siblings. and we were all close with each other's siblings. And so it was cool that my brother was going to be a senior. I had the oldest sibling out of everybody. Most of them were the oldest sibling. And so for me to have an older brother who was going to be a senior, it was very cool. We all kind of had a sense of protection from him. Going into the school, we knew that he wouldn't let anything bad happen to us.

And we all felt like pretty cool that we knew a senior. And he could drive. which was so cool. Yeah. And so he would drive me to and from my friend's houses, and he would drive us all around. And I'm sure he wasn't thrilled about it, but mom and dad were busy, and he had to do it.

He, when I was in ninth grade, started ninth grade, and he would take me to school and from school every day. And so we had to be in the car together for, I mean, it was only like a 10-minute drive, but it made us be together and to kind of just be okay around each other. I mean, it was still kind of rough. We just, like, we're never super close. But we would listen to music and we would learn new songs together.

And, yeah, I had to be on time every day. Like, he would say, okay, I'm leaving at 7, 10 in the morning. If you're not out there, I'm not waiting for you. And I was like, you got it. And I was there every day, ready to go. and I would just, we would just get in the car and we would go to school. He was in the marching band at school. He did baseball in the beginning of high school and then he joined the marching man.

So some days he would be like staying after school with his friends or whatever and he wouldn't text me and tell me. And so I'd be waiting at his car and I'd be like, where are you? Where are you? I'm waiting and I'd have to go back into the school and try to find him and be like, are we going home today? he'd be like, now figure it out. I'm like, okay. I don't know what I would do, but sometimes I would just sit and wait for him to be done or whatever. At this time, my one friend from sixth grade that I had been friends with A and I got very close at this time.

We were doing volleyball together. We had a lot of classes together. We were just hanging out together all the time. Some of our other friends would drift in and out. We would make new friends. but the two of us stayed very close the whole time. There were still some internal things and some drama, but overall it was starting to be pretty happy again.

I was doing really good. I noticed that things would get worse in the cold months with my mental health, but at that time, like that winter of ninth grade, it was pretty good. We went on a ski trip over spring break, and around that time was when, My friend A was texting me, and she was like, I like this boy, like, we're going to start dating, all this and that.

And I was like, oh, that's cool. And she was kind of one of those friends that always had a boyfriend. So it wasn't anything like super crazy. But this boy was a junior and we were freshmen. And so that was like, whoa. Like, that was not something that we thought happened to people. Like, that was really cool. Isn't it so funny?

how high school was. Like, I just, I remember that stuff, too. Yeah. It's like when you're in ninth grade, I feel like it was like pushing it. If you were talking to a junior, it's like definitely didn't talk to the seniors. So I get it when you were saying, like it was cool that your brother was a senior. Because it's like if you don't have a sibling that's older, it's like you don't really have an in. But the older kids.

Yeah. And so I knew a bunch of the seniors just because of my brother. Yeah. It was crazy because they all seemed so old. Right. At the time. But, yeah, he was a junior. And did you know who he was?

No. Okay. So how did she like get to talking to him? Do you know? I don't know. Okay. But she just randomly was like, I'm interested in this guy and... Yeah, I don't remember.

I'm sure it was like through friends of friends and stuff at that point. But at this point when she told you you hadn't met him yet or anything, okay. Yeah, I didn't know him. I don't think I had ever even heard of him. Like, again, we were freshmen. So we kind of stayed to ourselves. Um, we had like some like other like friends who had older siblings. And so that's the only thing that I could think would be right.

How they. Yeah, but I don't, I don't know, probably Instagram or something. But yeah, then so they started dating about the time that I came back from spring break. And we were kind of friends with some of their friends previously. and so we just, they had a big group, he had a big group of friends. And she would be like, oh, I'm going to hang with all of them. Like, do you want to come? And so I would tag along.

And then soon enough, like all of our friends were hanging out with all of his friends. And it was like every weekend we were doing something together, all of us. We would do like movies or bonfires, pool parties, things like that all of spring. Yeah, it was like every weekend. We had a really good time. Yeah, I'm sure it sounds fun. Yeah, everybody got along very well. But a few times things would happen with her boyfriend.

And it was just kind of strange. Like he was like super nice. He was kind of quiet, but it was kind of like he kind of ran the friend group. Everybody kind of looked to him for approval of things. and he would kind of throw like temper tantrums. Like he was always looking for the validation from his friends and they were all looking for it from him. But he was really like the attention seeking one. And nothing like super crazy.

Like I don't know. Like nobody, we were never doing things that we shouldn't be doing. But I can remember like a few times where I was like, This is really weird. One of those times him and my friend came to pick me up at my house. And at that time, like, he could drive, but we couldn't drive. And so they came and picked me up. And it was, like, one of the first times that my mom let somebody else drive me

other than, like, her or, like, my friend's parents or my brother. And he came and picked me up. And then we were driving to one of our other friend's houses, like, for the bonfire or whatever. And we get there. And I don't know what transpired, but we get out of the car. Me and my friend get out of the car. And he locks himself in the car. And so nobody can get in the car. And it was probably like 35, 45 minutes that he just like stayed in his car, like wouldn't look at anybody. Just. And it was random. Just random. Yeah. I don't remember anything like setting him off or anything like that.

But then eventually he came out and we were all just like, okay, like, carry on. Yeah. And he did it again at my house. Him and my friend came over to swim. We had a pool. And my friend came in, came through.

And like my parents knew my friend. Like she was always over. And he just stayed in his car. Now, is the friend that you're, talking about is that who was dating him? Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah, A was dating Jake. The boyfriend's name is Jake. And so... So it would be you three a good amount of times hanging out. Yeah, usually because he could drive and so he would kind of take us wherever. Got it. Um, um, yeah. And so Jake would, he would just like sit in his car with the doors locked and like, nobody could get him out.

nobody could talk to him. And it wasn't like he wasn't causing a scene, but it was like he wanted people to know that he was upset and he was staying in his car. And it was, I don't know, it was just weird. Yeah. He kind of did something similar on her birthday, on A's birthday. We had all been at her house for her birthday. She had like a little birthday party. And he stayed after everyone left and I was sleeping over at her house that night.

So it was just the three of us. And when she was like saying goodbye to him, they were out on her porch. And I was just in her room. It was just like a one floor house. So you could not hear what was going on out there, but like you could hear if like a car started or whatever. And so they were talking on the porch. And he left. He ended up leaving.

I heard his car start and he left. And she came back inside and she was really upset. And I was like, what's going on? and I guess she didn't want her parents to hear what was going on. So we went outside onto the porch and so with two of us were talking. And we heard his car, like he had a truck. And it was like an older truck. And so it was very loud.

And the truck, they would do these things called burnouts. And we heard him doing one of those and then like drive off. And she said to me, she was like, he's going to crash. his car. She's going to, he's going to drive it into the lake. He's going to crash it into a house, something like that. He told me he was going to do that. And I don't know what transpired or why he was so upset about whatever. But like she was so paranoid about it. Wouldn't answer the phone. Nobody could get a hold of him. He ended up just going home, I guess. But it was just another thing that was like, why is he doing that? Hey, I'm Jeremy Schwartz from American Criminal.

On this season, robbery gone wrong or cold-blooded murder. Either way, Boston will never be the same. Listen to American Criminal, the murder of Carol Stewart, wherever you get your podcasts. Or to get early ad free access, subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at Americancriminal.com. I think, too, like, you know, because growing up, I had a couple friends that would eat guys that, you know, would threaten their lives or threaten things when they would be in a lot. a fight or just like whether it was for attention or if they genuinely had something wrong with their mental health. And I think that's the scary part is you don't know. And it's like like you really just don't. Yeah. Because some people are just, you know, manipulators and just want attention and

others. Like they actually, it's like it's a cry for help. And it's like, I mean, either way, it's, it's, I don't want to say it's, it's wrong even though it is. But like it's because you're putting it on somebody else. And it's like, it's not fair. Right. It's like, it's like, it's, you don't have control over somebody else's life. And it's like to put, to have that weight on your chest is like horrible. It was, yeah, it, I mean, we'll get into like all the other things that you do. But yeah, it was just, it's so manipulative and so not fair. Yeah, unfair is a very good word. It's crazy how like normal that is too. So normal. That way, I think that was the first time that, uh, something like that had happened where it was like, do we need to be concerned about,

what he could potentially do. Yeah. But again, like, he was always looking for attention. He was seeking validation from everybody that it was like he's not going to do that because he loves it too much. Yeah. And it's almost like by him doing the thing of like locking himself in the car, it's almost like it could be viewed as him like acting out for attention as well.

Yeah. After a few of those like little things had happened, all of like our girlfriend. we were kind of like, what are you doing? Like, maybe this isn't, like, this isn't what you need right now. And this isn't what he needs right now. Like, maybe you should leave. Maybe you guys, like, need to end things. And she was like, yeah, like, I know, like, you guys are right.

But, like, I don't know if I'm ready yet or, like, whatever the case was. And we were like, okay, like, we've got your back, like, at the end of the day. Because we were all, like, a big group of friends. And so it was kind of like, if you were like, they break up, then like the girls go one way and the guys go another way. And she was like, we, we didn't, we didn't want it to, like, we didn't want the friendships that we all had need to end. Yeah. You don't want to lose the friend group. Yeah. And so at some point, towards the end of the spring, she tried to break up with him. And he did, he said,

if you break up with me, I'll kill myself. And I mean, we hear it, like, we had, had talked all the time. Like, this wasn't the first time that we had heard of somebody's boyfriend saying this. And it's just, it was crazy, it's crazy how, like, nonchalant it was. Like, people would be in the classroom and be like, oh, I got a bad grade on my test. Like, I'm going to kill myself. And it's like, just because you got a bad grade, like, you don't have to fear that this person is going to go home and kill themselves.

Just because it, like, just gets thrown around. like so nonchalantly. And I feel like we're like programmed to not believe it because you don't want to believe that somebody would do that. But yeah, it's just it gets very manipulative and like just it's not something to joke about and people would just joke about it. Like it was just, I mean, I would joke about it. It was never anything serious.

We were young. It was just like kind of the thing that was. was getting thrown around and nobody like hearing it so often nobody ever took it seriously and so we were like at what point do you take this seriously like we had no boundaries no standards for when we needed to be concerned um also we were 15 and nobody that we knew was like committing suicide you know we would only hear about it in the news or online older people um it was it was like something, it's not, not us, you know what I mean? Like, not our friends, like not our school. Like, we don't have to worry about that. Like, that won't happen to us. Yeah.

Yeah, so, like, he was always so driven to get the attention, like, we didn't take him serious. But so after he threatened that, our friend stayed with him. And he, I mean, other than those, like, little, like, incidents, he never really showed, um, any other signs. You know what I mean? There was never, he wasn't like depressed, that he was still always out

with all of his friends, laughing, having a great time. Like, he was so much fun. Like, we all had so much fun together. I feel like this story, like, shouldn't take away.

Like, how much fun we all had together. And he really was like a good friend. Like, we all had so much fun together. And he kind of just brought everybody together all the time. time. But yeah, there was never anything that made us at this point be like, should we be concerned? And so this was like getting towards the end of the school year.

We were about to be getting into summer. And around this time, like in ninth grade, KIC was the big messaging app. People didn't like go on IMessage to talk. That wasn't cool. And so we had a big group chat on KIC with all of our friends. And I think at this point, it's probably like early June. And I had got kicked out of this big group chat for breaking up with one of the other guys that because my friend was dating one of them, I was also dating one of them. And so I wasn't in the group message anymore.

I wasn't really hanging out with them that much anymore. I was still hanging out with my friend A. Like we had a great time. that our relationship was never, it wasn't serious, but it's important to the story because I wasn't actively in the group chat when this all went down. So, but I was sent screenshots from my friend. And I think she had probably tried to break up with him again. And he sent a picture of a gun in the group chat.

I don't know, I don't remember what was exactly said, but it was something. insinuating that he was going to use it. And so, like, panic broke out. Like, my friend and I were freaking out. We weren't together. So this was all over text on kick. And at that time, my cousin was living with me, my older cousin. And she was a student teacher at the time. And so she was living with us. And she had been living with us for a few years. And so we were really close. And so I felt like I could go to her with anything. And so I went to her and I showed her the screenshots and I was like, what do we do? Like this is, this is like too far past the point of just like blowing it over. And we at that point in time also had family in from Ireland. One of my dad's cousins and their

daughter were staying with us also. And so we were trying to figure out like what do we do? What should we do? Should we do anything. And I didn't want to go to my parents about it because I was afraid that if they knew, then they would be like, you can't hang out with these people anymore. Like, if they have guns, like, that's, if they have access to guns, like, that's not safe. You shouldn't, those aren't the kind of people that you need to be getting yourself involved with. And I really enjoyed being around them. And I didn't want to not be allowed to. And so my cousin and I were talking and this is over, like, a few hours of time. We decide it's maybe not our place because I wasn't the only, like I wasn't the only one that got this message. I didn't even receive it straight to me.

Like it was in this big group chat with all of our friends. And so it was kind of like, well, somebody will. You know what I mean? Like if somebody really thinks that this is like serious, somebody will say something. I didn't know his family. We never went to. to his house when we would all get together. I never met his parents. I didn't really at this point know where he even lived. I didn't know how I would even get in contact with his mom if I needed to. But I just, I didn't think that there was anything I could do at that time.

My cousin and I were kind of like, we'll just, we'll just see, like wait it out. And again, it was like, okay, does he really mean it? Like, we didn't know if this was like we should be taking it seriously. We obviously could have called 911, but we didn't. Nothing I can do about that now. But we were young and naive. After he sent that message, we, and we decided we weren't going to really get involved into it. It kind of blew over.

He was fine. He didn't do anything. And that was on a Sunday. And then that Sunday was going into the last week of school. And so at our school, there were some requirements that you needed to meet between, like, grades and test scores that determined if you had to take the final exam or not. And I'm pretty sure that the final exams didn't negatively impact your grade. It could only help your grade. And so if you were going to take the exam and it was going to lower your grade,

you were like, I'm not taking it. And like, say you had an 80 in the class and you got a 70 on the exam, it wouldn't count. They wouldn't count it. But if it was going to help your grade, then they would count it. And so for whatever reason, the last day of school, I didn't have to go. I didn't have to take my exams. And usually mom and dad would be like, you're going and taking the exams regardless. Just take it.

You never know. even if we had a 100 in the class and there was nothing better that we could do. We still had to take the finals. And it was always so annoying because all of our friends would be like home from school and we would still have to go and take these exams. But since we had family in the town from Ireland that week, they were like, okay, fine, like, don't worry about it. Yeah.

And so it's the last day of school. And my little brother, Aidan, was also home. He skipped school that day. He was still in elementary school. Or no. He would have been in sixth grade. Okay. And I was in ninth grade.

And Joey was a senior. And since my dad was in the Marines, there's a Marine Corps Museum, just right up the road from where we live. And so whenever we had family in town from anywhere, we would always take them there just because my dad's so proud of it. And we're also proud of it. And so we love to go there. and so my mom and dad had to obviously work still. And so they told our relatives, like, take the car, take the GPS and go to the museum and take the kids. Like, it'll be so fun.

And so they, I was like, I'm not going. Like, that's not cool. I don't want to go. It's my day off from school. It's the last day's school. I want to chill. And so they took our little brother, Aiden, with them to the museum. so it was just the four of them that went.

And he got to skip school. And Joey also loved the Marine Corps Museum. At this time, he wanted to join the military, probably the Marines. That was like in his mind what he was going to do. And he was a senior. And so he was really like starting to plan his future and all that kind of stuff. So he for whatever reason was like, not today. I'm not going to go today.

So I think I probably slept in that. morning, woke up and was like, where's everybody? Obviously, mom and dad would work, and our families, our relatives were gone. So it's just Joey and I. And I woke up because he was being very loud outside. I look at my window and he's washing his car. And I'm like, okay, like I'm not going to worry about it. So I go down to the basement. I'm like, I'm going to get cozy, watch Grey's Anatomy, just kind of chill. Nobody's here to bother me. You know, I get, I'm very introverted. And so having all the family in town was very overwhelming. And so it's like, I'm just going to take this day and just be by myself. And so I'm on my phone watching Grey's Anatomy in the basement. And it's probably

like lunchtime at this point. And my friend, A, she texts me. And she's like, hey, I need you to come get me from Jake's house. And I'm like, that's a little weird. Like I've never picked up a friend from like a boyfriend's house like that. And I don't remember like her, if she told me why she needed me to pick her up. But it was just urgent. She needed me to come. And I was like, okay, I can try, but I don't think Joey's going to be happy about it. Like, he's not, it's his day off due.

He's not going to want to take me to come and get you and then bring you back here. And we were just, I was like, okay, well, I'll just go ask him. And so I go all the way up to the third floor where all the rooms are from the basement. And I knock on his door. And I'm like, hey, can you take me to go get A from Jake's house? And he's like, yep, let's go. And I'm like, oh, okay.

Like he's ready. And I was expecting there to be a lot more convincing that would be to be done. But he was just kind of like, yep, let's go. And what I hadn't realized at the time was that it was the way that Jake would act around everybody was very apparent to everybody. And my brother had picked up on it. And he was like, this guy is not, something's not right. And so he was just like, my sister's asking me to go and get her from his house.

Like, that's, it's not normal. He'd never, we'd never done any. like that, obviously. And so we get in the car and it's only like five minutes to Jake's house from our house. And I only knew where he lived at this point because I had seen his truck at his house. It was the way that we went to school. It was on our route to school every day. And I remember seeing his car there like a few days prior and being like, oh, that's where he lives. Like, okay, just mental note. And so I knew exactly where we were going. And we get in the car and we start driving. We get like maybe a minute, two minutes down the road. And my brother is like unlock my phone and type in 911. And I'm like,

why? Like I'm just in my mind. I'm like, we're going to go pick her up and she's either going to come back to our house for the day or we'll take her back to her house. Like I'm not really, I'm not really sensing that anything is like really wrong. But my brother is like, this isn't normal. And so I do what he says. He's my older brother. And he is telling me that if he has to get out of the car, that like if it's just easier to have it already ready. He was a Boy Scout. He was always A squared away. Like he was always 10 steps ahead of everything. And so just to be on the safer side, he was ready, ready to go. And in our house, we were not allowed to have phones until, we were 16 and I was only 15. All my friends had phones. Everybody, everybody had a phone. Joey had a phone.

But I didn't have a phone so I couldn't text A and say, like, how far we out, how far out we are or any of that. But like she knew that I didn't have a phone. So she wasn't like expecting anything. I had texted her when we were leaving. And she knew it was fairly close. And so since I didn't have a phone, I couldn't obviously dial 911 if I had to in case of whatever. And I didn't think it was necessary. I'm like, we're just going to pick her up. But my brother was thinking that if we got there and he was upset that he might try to come out and fight my brother. And my brother is not a fighter. Like he's not going to fight somebody, but he protects his sister. and he was willing to do whatever he had to do.

That was like worst case scenario, right? For the two of us, worst case scenario is that he wants to fight my brother. And so I'm just like, whatever. Like, he's not going to do that. But I'm like, okay, so we get there and we pull. So his house is kind of like on an intersection with like stop signs, It's not like a big intersection. It's just two roads that meet.

And so we pull down one road where his driveway is on, but he's on the corner of the two streets. And so as we're driving up, we see that A is already outside. And I'm like, okay, like they're fighting, whatever. And so she gets into the car. My brother gets out of the car to get her in the car. So at least she's in the car and he's outside. and we pull into the driveway and I'm still not sure like what's going on like

you see outside too Jake no he was not we didn't see him and so my brother was like okay we're good like we'll get in the car and we'll drive away and so then we pull into the driveway and we see him come to the front door and so they had like a what door that you close and then a screen door

or like a glass door kind of and so the big door is open and the glass door is still closed. And so he comes to the doorway and we're all like looking at him. And so we're like right in front of the door at this point. It's just like right down like a little path. Like we can see it's right there. And where my brother's like, okay, like do I have to fight him? Like is he going to come out here? Like do I need to protect these girls? Like what's going on? So he's like parking the car and then reversing the car, parking the car, reversing the car, like he's not sure what he needs to do in this

situation. And so I, as I'm, as I'm looking at him, I'm like, why is he holding a broom? I'm like, okay, maybe they were cleaning something. I don't know. This, like, all of this happened within a span of probably three minutes. And so there was a whole lot going through my mind and like still, I wasn't getting it. And so I'm like, why is he standing there with a broom? And then the next second, I'm like, he's not there anymore. That's weird. And then I'm like, oh, he is bent over. Like, that's weird. Like, maybe putting his shoes on.

I don't, like, I'm still at this point, like, not sure what's going on. At this point, my brother realizes what's going on. And so he is backing the car out of the driveway and is now, we're out of the driveway and in the road. And then all of a sudden, it is gone. It's, I don't remember hearing anything. part of me kind of remembers seeing something silver fly. And it was at that point that I'm like, that was a gun. He had a gun.

And he just shot himself in the doorway. And so the car go silent and we're still just sitting there like parallel to his house, all of us looking out the window. And I'm like, oh my God. And it still like hasn't really registered. what just happened. And so my brother goes straight down the road. So then we get a little bit down the road.

And he dials 911 as we're like pulling away from the house. And he says to the 911 operator, he shot himself. And I'm like, oh my God. Like, okay, so that, what I thought happened is what happened. And so he's on the phone with 911. and my friend is in the back of the car. And this, like, maybe 10 seconds from when he shot himself to when we get just a little bit down the road is the best way I can describe it is you have like noise cancelling headphones on and all you can hear is your heartbeat. But like you know that

there's chaos going on around you. But it was just like tunnel vision. It was just like immediate at shock, like what is even going on. So he turned, my brother turns the car around. So we're parked out of the road facing the house now. But we're like far enough back that we can't see anything. And my brother is still on the phone with 911. And they're, they're chatting. And I am just, I can't really hear what's going on.

I don't really know what's going on. but they're on speaker and I hear the lady like ask him his birthday. I remember being like, that's so weird. Like that why that's not important right now. Like what are you even doing? And so my brother like tells him, tells her his birthday. And my friend is saying, we need to go back. We need to go back.

He's in there. We need to go back. And my brother was like, we can't go back. He's like turning around. Like do not let her get out of the car. And so I'm like, I'm like, we can't go back. Like, I'm still like not really sure what is going on. Like I know what I saw and I know what my brother said, but like I still don't really know what's going on.

All of a sudden, she said, the 911 operator says, okay, they'll be there soon and hangs up. And the line goes dead. And my brother is just like, what? Like, they're not supposed to just hang up. I don't really know why that happened. But so he's all. off the phone and she's trying to get out of the car. And so I climb from the front seat to the back seat and I'm just like holding her. I'm like, we can't go back. And she's like, he's in there.

We need to go back. And I'm like, I know he's in there, like, but we can't go back. And as soon as I realize kind of what she's talking about, I see his little brother come running out of the house. and he is like so distraught covered in blood and I don't know what happened from the time that he shot himself to his brother running out of the house but I can only imagine what went down. And my brother at that point is having to make the decision of do I go back there and get this kid or do. do I protect these girls. And I know still to this day that he struggles with that. He doesn't know what the right decision was, but he decided to stay with us. And the little brother goes and runs to a neighbor's house. And I'm sure that they also called 911 because what would you do if a nine-year-old comes to your house and is like that? And so after all that, and again, this was all within

the span of like three minutes. We're like, oh my gosh. Okay. So my brother's like, you need to call your parents to my friend. And she's like, she's like, I can't even see my phone right now. Like I can't, I don't know how to call them. And so he takes her phone and calls her parents. And I'm just holding her and she's just holding me in the backseat.

And so he calls her parents and tells them what happened. And it's like, this is where we are. You need to come now. they hang up and then he calls my parents and my parents were both at work um in an office and i i know that that call has impacted both my parents um like so much to the point where my mom jumps every time she gets a phone call from any of us kids and we i think when we were in that car waiting for the police to arrive we all were like our life have just changed.

And so we're sitting in that car and then her parents get there and it seems like they literally got there in 10 seconds, but they get there and then we all get out of the car. And at some point, a police officer comes to us. I guess my brother told them where we had parked comes to us and we realize that the police officer that is there is the like, a police officer. officer that patrols the high school. And so we knew him. He kind of knew us. You know, he'd seen us around. And so it was like, okay, kind of comforting. Like, we know this guy. And then between all that, we're starting to hear more and more sirens coming. And like, there were fire trucks and

ambulances and police cars. And at some point, the white vans came. And if you know anything about the white fans. They're the people that come to like clean up a crime scene. I know that you said like you at first she didn't really know what you were seeing when you were looking through the glass door. Do you think A saw everything happen as well? Yeah, she did. And I think it registered for her faster than it did for me. Okay. Because I only say that because later I found out that she and him got into a fight. And she told him that she wanted to go home. And he was like, I'm not taking you home. And so she was like, okay, I'm going to call Allie and see if she can come and get me. And he was like, that's fine. But if you leave, I'm taking it as you're breaking up with me.

And she's like, okay, fine. Like, we're done. And so that's why she was outside because she was done. And I think she was done and done with the relationship long before all this happened. but I think there was like a sense of fear. Yeah. And all of it. And so, yeah, I think as soon as he came up to the door and she like, I think she noticed and realized what was happening way faster than. Plus she had been dealing with it. Yeah.

Then Joey and I did. So, yeah, I think she knew exactly what was going on. I don't think when she decided, when she said like, we're, that's fine, I'm done. Like, I'm leaving. I don't think she was like, okay, well, this is what's going to happen. Right. But I think once he got to the door and she realized he had a gun, she immediately knew what was going on. Yeah, I think that that was like his last straw.

I think that he didn't want her to leave. He didn't want her to break up with him. And so I think this was like his last, like, vindication in a way, like his last time to like make a point. Yeah. I don't think truly that, I mean, you can't be in any right mental state to do something like that. But I don't think that he knew what he was getting himself into. I don't think that he truly thought that he would pull the trigger and, be done. I think he was hoping that we would try to stop him. But, I mean, he had a gun.

We weren't going to try and do that. And I think that there was also fear in the car that he was going to come at us with the gun. And so I think that's also why my brother was trying to get away. Yeah, I remember just being so scared of being like, that could have gone so many different. different ways, but I never expected it to go the one way that it did go. And so I was, I felt like I was completely blindsided. Even though like all these other things should have like added up to me, it just like it didn't register that like maybe he wasn't kidding. You're also so young. I feel like at that age, you don't really take things like that as seriously because you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And So, yeah, I think she immediately knew what had happened.

And I think also, like, her parents, I don't think that they were as surprised as maybe my parents were. Because I feel like she was, her mom is young, younger. And so she's very close with her mom and they're like best friends. They were best friends at the time. And so they would tell each other everything. And so her mom knew also like everything that was going on just as much as I did. And so I don't think that they were as surprised as my parents were. It felt like we had been like at the scene for hours.

And so eventually like another police officer came over and was like, we need to ask you guys some questions. and we were like, okay, like, what do you need to know? And they were like, no, like one at a time. And it was like, oh, okay. And so I don't know who went first or what, but I would know that when I, when it was my turn, I felt like in a way he was not necessarily accusing me, but it was very harsh and like kind of demeaning.

And I remember him asking me, like, Like, was this out of the blue or, like, had he kind of, has he ever said he was going to kill himself before? And I'm like, yeah, like, three days ago. And he was like, why didn't you say anything? Why didn't you call us? Why didn't you call anybody? Why didn't you tell anybody?

And I remember just being like, I felt so, like, defeated. Like, like, if I had just said something, like, obviously none of this would have happened. Right. And it starts to make it feel like it was your fault. Yes. And so that was the first, that was my first feeling of guilt, of being like, this is my fault. Like, I did something wrong here. Even though it was, like, it was never a question of whether or not it was a suicide.

Like, there wasn't any, like, open, there was no question about it. It was just trying to get all the details. but there was no sympathy from the guy. And so that just felt so bad of that. And so after all the questioning and stuff, my parents were like, okay, nobody needs to be alone tonight. Everybody can just come back to our house. We have a pool. We have a big basement.

Everybody can just crash there and stay however long they need to. My friend, A, she was like, yeah, I can't stay. at my house because he would always be over there and she was like everything just is going to be reminding me of him. But she was like, I need to go get my stuff. Like I need to pack a bag. Like I have nothing. So I'm like, okay. So I went with her and her parents back to her house to get her stuff quick. And I remember sitting on her bed in her room and asking her like, is he dead? Like I wasn't fully convinced at that point because I was like maybe there's something they can do like I don't know and again 15 like I didn't I didn't know what and she was like yeah and I was like oh crap like okay that was like the first realization I had that was like this is really about to get bad and so then she gets her stuff and so we start to we go back to my house and And by the time I get there, all of our friends are there.

Like all of his friends, all of our friends, people I hadn't talked to in a few weeks, all of their parents, everybody's there. And I remember walking up to the porch and seeing my cousin, who was living with us at a time, who I had just been talking to about this, like, a few nights before. And she's just like, I'm so sorry. I haven't ever really talked to her that much about it, but I'm sure that she also was like kicking herself because we didn't think that this was going to happen, obviously. I feel bad for her, and I know that that was really hard for her to find out also. But then the rest of that night was kind of a blur.

People were coming and going from our house, like for days. People were just like sleeping on the floor in our basement. and just being together because nobody wanted to be alone after that. So the very next day, my parents call the same family therapist that we had been going to because what do you even do after something like that? But my mom did the best that she knew at the time. And we went and we started to see our old therapist for a little while for that summer. I just remember feeling like, okay, if this is how it's going to go, this is going to take forever.

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while your subscription is active. And now back to today's episode. And so the rest of that summer, we just kept going to that same therapist and just really taking it day by day. I spent nearly every second with A out of the fear of her not being okay and feeling the need to like protect her. And I also felt like I owed her all of my emotions. And so I kind of put my trauma on the back burner to help her get through hers because I felt that I owed that to her. because if I hadn't gone to get her, none of this would have happened.

And same with my brother. I had so much guilt because if I just hadn't even asked him, like this all would have played out differently. Like obviously, all of the what ifs all summer were going through my mind. I felt guilty for not speaking up when he had threatened it just a few days before. I felt guilty that I was ruining the trip for my cousins from Ireland. I had a lot of guilt for Aden because two of his siblings are now getting all of the attention, all of the help, all of everything.

And so he was also kind of just thrown on the back burner. He was just kind of going through the motions also. And he was so little. He was 12. Like he was just a baby when we were all going through that. And he is also such an empathetic person that I know it must have been so hard to see his older siblings struggling. When all we as older siblings want to do is protect our younger siblings. but he took it he took it very well um we tried to stay super busy that summer i couldn't be away

from my parents they were like my protection my safety blankets um they always knew how to calm me down um we i mean i had so many like days just filled with full of flashbacks and memories and I couldn't sleep. I was scared. I didn't want to go anywhere. I had so much anxiety. I just, it was always on my mind, just the constant like, what if, what if, what if. And towards like, after a few weeks from this happening, they had the funeral. and that was also like that was so brutal because it in in when we were in it it was like okay like this was finally starting to get a little bit better looking back like those short like few weeks was like nothing compared to like what we were going to go through in terms of time but it just felt like

another like stab in the back um because it was really hard to go to a funeral and have people say all these nice things about him when I felt so betrayed because I was like, does nobody understand what he did to us? It was so hard to hear people be like he was a great friend, a great brother, a great son, cousin, all of that stuff. And I just remember being like, but he just did that. Like he just killed himself in front of us and is putting us through all of this stuff. It just, I felt so betrayed by everybody.

And like, I have no hard feelings, obviously, for anybody because I would do the same thing if it was my brother or my child or whatever. You don't want to think about the bad things. You only want to remember them for the good. And I think most people do remember him for all the good. And so I don't want to like bash anybody for any of that. But from my side, it was just so hard to go through and hear people talking about that because I was so angry. I had so much anger. It was so mad.

And it became, you know, a trauma, a traumatic thing for you as well. Yeah. Because not only were you, like you said, there were so many moving parts and like you were so involved and then you were there and you saw it. And you didn't know what you were seeing. And then it's the constant self-blaming and the what-ifs. And I think that's the stuff that people don't really see or know about. It's like it's easy to look at things from a bigger picture. And like, yeah, it's a horrible tragedy.

You know, and that shouldn't happen to anybody. Nobody should, you know, be in such a bad place within themselves that they feel like they have to take their own life. But then it's like it does trickle down. And it trickles on to other people. And even, you know, his brother. And like having to see that. It's horrible. heartbreaking for more than just it goes beyond what just happened to him. Yeah. And so I think,

um, I don't think a lot of people at the time like throughout that summer really like, I think a lot of people knew because words spread so fast that we were there. Um, but I don't think people, I mean, I wouldn't have even thought twice if somebody had said something like similar happened to me. I think two people don't understand. the heaviness and the effect that that actually has and not sometimes not even in that moment because when when we are that young I don't think our brains fully grasp and process something so serious but then like as you get older and as time goes on it's like then you start to kind of dissect what has happened to you in your life and you're like wow that was actually

really fucked up or like I am this way or I react this way or this way in these situations because I witness this or because these things that have. happened to me. And sometimes it takes a long time for our brains to kind of fully wrap our heads around what has happened. Yeah. And I don't think people, like, people lost their friend. And so they weren't necessarily worried about, like, us who were, like, still here and dealing with the effects of it. I think, obviously, they were mourning their friend, which, like, at the time felt, like, so betraying, but now that I'm older and obviously can look back and be like, I would do the same thing. I empathize with them because I didn't understand how hard that must have been for them

too. I was just, I was very self-absorbed. But it's all different perspectives of it. You know, it's like there's Jake's perspective, there's your perspective, there's your brother. It's like there's so many. It's like there's so many. different people that like viewed it and you know have probably gone through it so differently and had so many different stages of like grief and trauma and everything between like you said even your parents like yeah it you know getting a phone call like that it's terrifying it's scary it really is something that affects everyone yeah yeah and I don't think obviously that summer we were very isolated um but it wasn't until we went back

to school that we realized, I think, like, how much this affected everybody, like, the whole school, literally. Yeah. But, like, about mid-August, I would say my brother had to go to college, and my parents kind of debated, like, do we send them? Do we keep them home? Like, what do we do? And again, like, there's no right or wrong things to do in this situation.

Like, nobody's, we've never been through this before. Like, there's no, there's nothing that is telling us how to, how to go about this, you know? And I, I can remember, like, going on YouTube and online and searching, like, I witnessed a suicide or I watched somebody die or I saw somebody die, things like that. And there was nothing. Like, there was nobody who had made, and, like, at that time, YouTube was huge. there was nobody who had like made a YouTube being like yeah I went through the X, Y and Z and there was nothing I could relate to. You know, nobody was talking about that. And so I was like, okay, I'm the only person in the world who is going through this right now. Like other than my

friend and my brother, I was like, this is such a wild situation. Like nobody, nobody has gone through this before. And that wasn't true. Like, I'll come to find that out. But at the time, it felt so isolating and I felt so alone in this because even with my brother and my friend watching and witnessing the same exact thing and going through the same exact motions as me, we were all dealing with it very differently. It was the same incident, but we all had different stories, you know? and so they were taking him to school. They decided that he would go. He decided, yeah, I'll go.

And it was about the same time that I met a boy. And I was like, I don't need to be getting into anything. But they took Joey to school and I started talking to this boy. He was a friend of Jake. and he also was having a really hard time with it. And so we kind of started talking and helped each other get through that. We're still dating now. How long has it been?

Almost eight years. Wow. Good for you. Yeah. That's amazing. Isn't that crazy? Yes. Yeah, I know.

And so it's nice now to have somebody who, like, has been through all of it with me. Makes a big difference. It's almost like, I think, I think that having, somebody and it's not necessarily because obviously like there's situations I think that you can bond over something like that and it can be toxic but I think too if you help each other get through something like that and it helps the both of you and it's a healthy thing I think that it can be something where it helps you feel like like I'm sure what you were just about to say that it helps you feel understood yeah and something so huge yeah it impacted your life because

Because it's like to explain it to somebody that doesn't really get it or wasn't directly a part of it, even if they say they understand it can make you, you don't always feel like that. So I do agree with you that it holds a different place. Yeah. He's lovely. That's amazing. Yeah. And so like we've been through so many different stages in life. Right.

And like healed together, I feel like in a way too. Yeah. But so he really helped me. to feel like less alone in it. But also I had got a message that summer from a girl at my school who was a year older than me. And she just like sent me a little paragraph and she was like, I heard what happened. I just want to let you know that something similar has happened to me.

And I was like, oh my God, finally. Yeah. and she gave me, I'm not going to, it's not my story to tell, but something pretty similar happened to her. And so she would cover to my house about every week and we would sit down and I'd be like, this is how I'm feeling right now. And she'd be like, I felt like that too. This is what helped me through that. and she was really like the light at the end of the tunnel that I didn't know when I was going

to reach that but I knew that it was possible. Yeah, she was one of the like biggest impacts that I had right after that gave me like the push that I needed to be like, okay, this I will be okay eventually. Yeah. and then we had to go back to school. And that whole summer I stressed about going back to school because I knew that everybody knew. And I just, I didn't want to keep reliving it as much as I already had.

But so we go to open house back to school night. And there are suicide prevention posters. all over the school, which weren't there last year. And so it was like, okay. So, and it's like, I already knew everybody knew, but now it was like, okay, it's like literally plastered on the wall. It's like a constant reminder. Yeah, every classroom, every bathroom, every hallway. And I was like, okay, that's great.

And so my parents ended up meeting with our school counselor who she was, I couldn't have done it without her. But she ended up getting all of my teachers for that year together. And I had like a meeting with them. And they were like, what can we do to make this as seamless for you as possible? And I was like, I don't know. Like I genuinely, I don't know. but like just be open you know what I mean like just work with me and they were like okay we will we will do as much as we can because I knew that like just getting through the day

was going to be hard but it was basically just like all the principals and my teachers and stuff and they were just like we like you obviously have to come to school like you can't just not come obviously and I was like well I don't want to just not come but I was like I think I can do this like, I'll be okay. And they were like, just anything you need, like, as it comes up. Because they were like, we've never dealt with this before either. Yeah, it's like new for everybody. Yeah.

And so it's like, okay, like, we're just all going to have to just go through this together, I guess. And so I spent a lot of time with the guidance counselor. She was kind of like my safe place because she just, she was like a psychologist. She just knew. Somebody did talk to you. Yeah. I remember, like, the first few weeks. weeks of school just being like told a lot of things from people and a lot of people were

like there was just rumors you know things were just like going around but it was so like detrimental to us it was awful to say the least um people were i remember sitting in english class one day and there was a kid next to me. And I think I had, I think that they had made those, like, rubber bracelets and given them to everybody. And I think I was probably wearing one of them. And I had never, like, really ever known this guy. He never hung out with us or anything. But he saw my bracelet and he was like, oh, did you hear what happened?

And I was like, yeah. And he was like, yeah, I was there. It was rough. And I was like, okay. He wasn't. And I was like, oh, that's weird. And it like kind of sent me into this spiral because I would hear other people also being like, yeah, I was there. Like I saw it.

I don't know why. I don't know if I don't know what the reasoning behind all of it was. But I just remember being like, okay. So like, then let's switch. Like, you have no idea how hard this is. And it just felt like everybody was just kind of like, like they thought it was, I don't, like, I don't know what the reasoning behind doing that was. It wasn't everybody. It was probably only like one or two people.

But I don't, like, they weren't there. Like, I was there. My friend was there. My brother was there. unless they were like hiding in the bushes. I don't like, I don't know why they felt the need to do that. A lot of, there was this one girl who was saying that she, and she was, I think, still in middle school.

And so like really not in the friend group at all. Never, never once hung out with us. I don't, yeah. But she was going, around saying that she was talking to his mom and his mom said that we weren't there. And so that was another just like punch to the gut. It was just like, okay, maybe like were we not there? Like you started to go through like, okay, maybe I'm crazy.

Like, I don't know. His mom never said that. That was something that she made up because she wanted. to be a part of this drama and trauma. Yeah. Again, I don't know what the reason, like, I don't know why that's necessary, but it was so hurtful, especially to be like, okay, even like his mom doesn't believe us. Right.

Which wasn't true. You know, she, she knew very well what happened. She's his mom. Um, and she was really, really nice to all. of us. She was there for us as much as she could be. She also had to deal with losing a child. But yeah, I remember hearing that and being like, okay, great. There was just a bunch of people were just saying we were lying or that we didn't call 911. People were saying that we didn't call 911. The neighbors did. Why didn't you call 911? And it like turns out that when the little

brother went to the neighbor's house. He had told them what happened and they called 911. And so obviously the mom probably heard or neighbors talk. I don't know. Somebody heard that they called 911. And so then people just assumed that we didn't, which also was not the case. We did call 911. Multiple people can call 911. But it was just like so many things that that just built up and just made it so hard. And I already felt like an outcast at the school because I kind of shut myself out from everybody. But just to like hear all these things going on made me feel like, okay, nobody, nobody's

on my side anymore. Which again, at 15, like, everybody was there for everybody at this point. Like I just was going through a lot and I didn't know how to deal with any of it. So my brother was up at school. And so I was away from him and that was also really hard because he was one of the people that understood me and was obviously also there. And I remember one night, um, um, I had some of my friends over and we had a friend in town. One of our close friends had moved away and then she was back in town visiting.

And at this time we still had like home phones and the phone rang, the home phone ring. And we didn't get a lot of calls on the home phone. And so there was one downstairs and one upstairs. So I pick up the phone a little bit after either my mom or my dad do. And I hear them say we found him. And I hang up and I'm like, okay, something is wrong with my brother. And then there's a lot of commotion. My parents come downstairs and they're telling me that he sleptwalked.

And this wasn't the first time he had done that. He's an avid sleepwalker. But my mom's biggest fear about sending him to school was that he was going to sleepwalk. And he only like would sleepwalk when he was either overtired, like so tired. or having like anxiety and stuff. And so I didn't really, I'm like, okay, like, so we maybe walked down the hall of his dorm. No.

He was having a nightmare, a very real nightmare that there were a bunch of people all around him who were actively like trying to kill themselves in his dream. And he was trying to get away from them. And so he ended up sleepwalking eight. miles away from campus into the woods. And in his dream, he was calling 911. But luckily, he was doing it also in real life. And that's what woke him up and broke him from the sleepwalking. And so obviously, like, he woke up in a huge panic. And so the police came and found him and took him to the hospital and my parents went right up there to get him. And he was going to school

at Penn State in Erie, Pennsylvania. And so it was like a nine hour drive. And so they drove all through the night to get there. So he came home on a leave of absence for a little while. And at that time, my friend was doing this type of therapy for trauma that we hadn't really entertained that much. But once this happened, we were like, okay, we, this is a lot bigger and a lot deeper than just like psychotherapy. And so we ended up getting him into EMDR therapy, which is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy.

And it's specifically a trauma therapy because what I didn't know at the time is when you experience something so traumatic, it changes the chemistry and the biology of your brain like instantly. Your brain does not function the same way it did before. And so it, to get a little scientific, it affects the hippocampus and amygdala for this part that's important, which is the memory and learning. and emotions. So like your flashbacks and anxiety and stuff like that.

But trauma also affects, it affects so much, but it also has a really big impact on your sleep. And so not just necessarily like hard time falling asleep, staying asleep, but it impacts your REM sleep. And so that's your rapid eye movement sleep, which is very important to get into, especially just for processing. When you go into REM,

you process everything that happened throughout the day. when you're not going into REM or you're not staying in REM long enough, you're not able to process things productively. During REM is kind of when you have like your vivid dreams and your distressing dreams. And so most people will spend like 20 to 25% of their night in REM. And I've recently been keeping track of my sleep. And still to this day, like I'm only in REM for like 10% of my whole sleep, which is not.

Not the best, but because of that lack of REM doing this therapy helps to reprocess the trauma while you're awake because you're not doing it enough when you're asleep. And so it helps to kind of file away and organize the trauma in a way that makes sense for your brain to easily process it. And so it influences the hippocampus and the amygdala with bilateral stimulation. You kind of are moving your eyes left to right, following with the therapist. The bilateral stimulation helps to facilitate the transfer from the amygdala to the hippocampus where they can then be processed and transferred, like the traumatic memories. And it helps with the flashbacks and all that. And so it's a really hard therapy.

And so I don't think a lot of people, one, know about it and to do it all the way through because it's exhausting and it's scary because you have to start, you have to play the traumatic event like a movie doing these back and forth movements with your eyes. Yeah. So I ended up doing it a little bit after Joey started once I realized and like my parents realized that it was being really effective for him, I got right into it. So like doing these eye movements and allowing for the bilateral stimulation triggers memory reconsolidation, which is where high reactive memories become less intensified and can be diminished. So essentially it's desensitizing the bad memories.

And so you can kind of pick and choose in a way. what you need to like really desensitize. And so for me it was a lot of like visual things that we witnessed that I was having a lot of flashbacks on that. And then the sound, which at the time I didn't realize I heard. But it was like a lot of loud noises were then like triggering me and putting me into these flashbacks. So things like that, just like little, all the little details that were kind of being pushed down in a way to kind of like make way for the bigger things. It helps to process all of it. And then how long is that type of therapy?

So it depends on the level of trauma in a way. in a way. For my trauma, it was just one incident. And so I did about 10 sessions of the EMDR therapy over the span of maybe 10 weeks. My brother, since he was home on a leave of absence, he didn't have as much time. So they did it back to back every day to make sure that he could get back to school and not miss too much of it. I want to say that A did it first. And that's kind of how we heard about it. And so we were all going to the same therapist for it, which I was a little bit hesitant on because then she might have some bias things. But she, like, really was the thing that kept me afloat. She was the thing that we needed in order to get through it. And so after I finished my EMDR sessions once I was like, okay, I moved to just talk therapy with her.

And I would go three times a week just to talk with her because there was just so much going on that I needed to work through so much of it. And it was like constant just, how do I deal with this? How do I deal with that? And so she ended up kind of making me picture like a toolbox in my head. And I would kind of file away like the tools that she would give me. And then because my biggest struggle besides from like the trauma was getting through the day at school. I probably did not have a full day at school until like the spring, the following spring. the following spring.

And so it was like that's obviously not good. That's not great. But my teachers were so understanding and they really worked with me just to make sure that I could get through it. And I did like I did fine. I was I was getting the stuff I needed to. I would stay after some days. I would go in later and stay after later to catch up on things that I missed.

and things like that. But she would help me to be able to bring those tools out during the day. And so if I was, I don't know, and if it was like 10 a.m. and I went to the bathroom and I saw the poster and I was like, would start to have like a flashback or something like that, I would be like, okay, what would Linda do? That was her name. What would Linda do?

What would Linda tell me to do? and then I could like do the breathing exercises or like just ground myself and be like, okay, I'm here, I'm safe, I'm not back there, it's not happening again, and just kind of like take a minute and breathe and then get some water and then, I mean, that took a lot of time to be able to just be like, yeah. But the biggest thing that like we kind of worked on was to, I didn't want to think about it as something that changed my life, you know? And so we kind of came up with this thing, like, yeah, that happened.

That was really crazy, but I'm okay. And so I even still to this day, eight years later, repeat that to myself all the time. Like, yeah, that was crazy. That happened to me and that was crazy. But I'm here. I'm okay. Like, it's not happening again. It won't happen again.

It could happen again, but we don't need to cross that bridge unless we get there, right? And so I, like, still to this day, live in constant fear of something like that happening again. Just because it in this day and age is so much more common than I had originally thought it was, right? Like when I was 15 and I was Googling to be like, who else is out there that has anything that they could relate to me with? there was nothing. And now, I mean, just like with social media and the news and everything, like more and more people are witnessing these horrible acts. And I feel like people aren't thinking of them as like survivors, I guess. I don't, I wouldn't say that it's like, for me, I'm not a survivor of like witnessing a suicide, but I survived.

like everything that came after it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so it's just like, it's crazy how so many people are being affected by just these like, so violent crimes. And I mean, I see things all the time of,

um, like there was a really big YouTuber. I remember a few years after it happened to me. And her, she found her husband. And I just remember being like, so many people are going to like see her story and blame her. You know what I mean? Because like I know that that's just where people kind of go to.

Yeah. Just like, well, you could have done something different. You should have done something different. You should have got him help. But at the end of the day, like, we can only help ourselves. And I think it's important too that people understand. your perspective because like we were saying before, it's very easy to just look at something from like a big picture

or hear something that happened and jump to conclusions in any way, you know. But there's like we were saying before, there's so many different perspectives and angles and everybody deals and handles and handles trauma very, very differently. Yeah. You know, some people are able to just suppress it. And some people, they struggle a lot. And, you know, you don't necessarily have to be close to someone or

see it or witness it to even feel the effects of it because everybody just handles things different. And, you know, I think what you said too is very true. Even though back in the day, and I say back in the day, but like, you know, when all this happened, like, yeah, social media was still a thing, but I think it was less common for people to, you know, speak publicly about these traumatic events and, you know, things that they've been through because I think people were more ashamed of it. But now I think that is a very positive thing of social media and even one of the reasons I have this show is so that people can type something in.

And it's a full video of somebody explaining it. Yeah. Because I think that it's so important. And there's especially younger people, like a lot of people don't want to speak up and turn to people and especially not always like their parents because it makes you uncomfortable. It makes you nervous. You don't know what to do. Yeah.

Definitely. I mean, I even got a lot of like, well, you weren't, you weren't his girlfriend. Like you were just also there. And so I think that my friend got maybe in a way like more sympathy and more help because it was her boyfriend and people were kind of like, well, why are you so sad? Like, why are you struggling so much? Like you didn't lose your boyfriend, things like that. And it's like, yeah, I know that. But it's like I even remember like her saying it to me.

Like he was my boyfriend. I don't know why you're so sad. And that was just like such a gut punch because it was like, am I not supposed to be feeling this way? Like, well, not only that, but I mean, first of all, witnessing someone like that is very traumatic. But besides that, you all were in that group chat or I know you weren't, but you like saw it. But you know, you all and you had heard him make these comments and seen the ways that he was acting. So it's very easy to be affected heavily. Yeah.

When he actually made that decision because, like you said, it carries feelings of guilt and the what-ifs. And that's the worst thing you can do to yourself is, you know, beat yourself up and play different scenarios. Because at the end of the day, you can play as many scenarios as you want, but it's never going to change the outcome. And I think that with, like, with Linda, the therapist, like, that was something else that we worked really hard on was that, like, there's nothing that we can do now. Right. So, like, why sit in it? Mm-hmm. And like obviously still like, well, I wonder what would have happened if or if.

But it's, it has happened. It's in the past. And no matter how much I like go back and would change or could change something, it's not going to, it's not going to do anything except harm my mental health. Did you stay in touch with Jake's family? So I feel like afterwards I. I wanted to be like accepted by them and be close to them because I felt like, again, I owed them something. But I realized that it wasn't doing anything for me. And I would keep in touch with them a little bit.

but we I kind of just stopped talking to them it wasn't anything that anybody did or or said like again like I said like she was so nice to us but yeah just for my my own sake I kind of released myself from

from his family and all of his friends just because it just was too hard and even like his close friends were saying stuff. And I just, I couldn't, I couldn't be around that anymore. Yeah, you need to do what's best for you and your healing journey. Yeah. And it's a journey. It's a process.

Yeah. So I, that like first year after was the worst year of my entire life. It was so dark. It was, I was so sad. a lot of it was I didn't I was so deep in it that I didn't I couldn't see like the end and for a long time I was really sad because I if I was this sad I couldn't imagine how sad he had to have been to do that and I I kind of like sat with that for a really long time and I like sat with that for a really long time and it wasn't until a little bit later that I realized that this wasn't him not seeing the end to his suffering. This wasn't him being done.

I don't know if that makes sense. This wasn't him being so sad that this was the only way that he could end that pain. This was him doing it out of spite. and I don't think a lot of people that were friends with him or his family understand that. And I mean, I feel like that's pretty apparent. But this, like, I think a lot of people went really far into like the suicide prevention and mental health and things like that. But like that wasn't what it was. and yeah it was he he did this out of anger this was he was mad because she was breaking up with him

yeah it was like that was I feel like maybe it was his mind final yeah but also I think in his mind like it was his way of like okay here's how I can control a situation yeah and like you said maybe he didn't even really think it through maybe he didn't think that his life would end there Yeah, I, you don't really know what someone's thinking. Yeah. Yeah, and we'll never know, you know. I kind of, not kind of. I did stop talking to A within that first year also because it just wasn't healthy for either of us to be, we were kind of holding each other back, I think, in our healing.

And I, I know I especially was trying to protect her. We kind of drifted. I, um, we would attempt to, like, reconnect and stuff like that. But, um, I think we both just kind of realized it was better. Yeah. Um, I would see her around. Like, we're still very friendly with each other. Um, but she moved.

She's living, um, in another state now, um, doing what's best. But yeah, I still, I guess, like, struggle with, the suicide prevention because I feel like my situation is like an outlier to like the curve of suicide. And so it's kind of hard to relate my situation to it because I do have a lot of sympathy like sympathy and empathy for like people who struggle for so long and then like just can't see any other way. Because again, like I was in I was so. deep in the depression that I didn't even see the way out. And I guess the only thing that kept me going was that I knew the aftermath. I knew what happened after. And I obviously, after going

through something like that, could never even fathom going to those lengths. But I do have so much sympathy and empathy with them. So I kind of teeter-totter on that. But I don't know. I don't know that that's really important. I think it was, I think it made sense. It fit into what you were saying. But then after that first year was up, I decided I was going to graduate high school early. So I finished high school in three years. And for you. I got into college and I got my degree in psychology. Amazing. Yep.

And now I'm a nanny with some wonderful children. And, yeah, it is not something that impacts my life every day. It's not something that I'll forget. It's not something that I don't think about often. But, yeah, I did come out on the other side of it. And I think it's important for people to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, no matter what you're going through. And that with the right people by your side and the right people on your team and the right resources, you can do anything. And I think it's important, too, for people to know that, you know, trying different types of therapies.

So important. Yeah, because everything, you know, there could be things that work differently for different people. people and it's like if something's not working try something else like don't just stop like i think it is important to exhaust the options and you know because it's like i think a lot of times either people want to be tough or they think they can handle it on their own and that's like one thing but then the other thing is i think a lot of people will go to therapy and be like well i didn't like the therapist or that didn't work for me because that's common too yeah and then they give up and i think it's so important it's not a one-size fits all definitely not with a therapist

And so, yeah, not all therapists are the same. And there's somebody for everybody. Yeah. And when you find the right one, it is so beneficial. Like I had the experience of both, you know, and it's like, no, I don't like therapy. And I was very, not against it, but I just wasn't for it. I was like, didn't work for me. Yeah.

But I think if you find the right person, you know. Make a break. Yes, for sure. And it gives you that support in a different way of like just being able to get it out and, like, voice it and talk about it. Yeah. And work through it. And then, like you said, get those tools that can really help you and serve you for when you're by yourself or you are facing those triggers.

Yeah. Yeah. And also I want to mention that I read a book called The Body Keeps the score. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's a brutal book, a brutal book. But it is very interesting to read about all of the science. and obviously I started psychology, all that behind trauma and how your body is, especially your brain, is forever changed.

Yeah, it stores it. Yeah. And every, yeah. That's the thing. It's like you really don't, that's what I was saying, even though somebody might not seem affected by something, you know, our bodies know what happened. They know. They know.

Our brains know. And they, and that's what I was saying too. I mean, there's things that, you know, I personally have experienced, obviously, nothing like that, but like small things even that you would think don't have an effect on you. And maybe they don't for a while. But, you know, as you get older and as your brain develops and changes, you know, these things can come out. And I think it's important for people to know also you don't even have to go through something traumatic. Like you don't have to wait until something does or doesn't happen. That's huge that you feel like maybe now I should go to therapy.

Like I think therapy can benefit for all. Everyone. Yeah. Because there could be be things that, you know, you know, are small and might not be a big deal, but still affect you and the way that you handle situations or react to things. And, you know, everything has an impact on your life for sure. And mental health is very important. And, you know, I hear what you're saying too, you know, with with the fact that I think that he unfortunately was making decisions and doing things out of spite and anger and control. But at the same time, it's like there's something's not right. And I know you mentioned this too. Like something's not right in someone's head for them to be acting out in those ways. Whether it's like, you know, and I don't, I didn't study psychology. So they could

go into a whole different thing. But, you know, some things, those kind of people need help too. And maybe in a different way, because maybe he wasn't depressed. Maybe it was a whole other end of a spectrum of something. But like, yeah, that's like something that needs to be addressed as well because it's like, that's not fair to what that does other people. And even for him, like, in his own way, he was struggling with his own demons. There was obviously something, right? Yeah. I mean, no.

And look what it could result in. You know what I mean? Like, it kind of gives you a different perspective of suicide and what can lead to it because it's like he clearly had some damage there that, like, made him feel like he, like, longed for that sort of control and even security from your friend that he felt the need that there, that he had to do that. Yeah. Which is scary.

Because I, and like you said, the thing. too is like, I mean, not to go on like a different tangent or to say the what ifs, but in a different situation, you know, with different people, there could be something that's very similar that could have ended in a different way of you guys getting hurt or outside parties getting hurt. And then it's like it blows up, you know, to a whole different level of things. And it's just, it's scary. We live in a very scary world. And I think it all kind of just comes full circle of why, you know, it's so important to. try to sort through things that we've been through.

One of the, like, police officers that came kind of described it as like a ticking time bomb because we were, when you're in that, you're like, well, all the what-ifs, obviously. But he was like, if not you, then somebody. Yeah. Like it was, like, he was just a ticking time bomb. And some people are just like that, you know, whether it was going to be something as graphic as what we witnessed. I don't know, but it maybe was, I don't know, the next girlfriend or something. Right.

Who knows? And it's not fair to, you know, it's not fair that his life ended so, you know, so young. And it's not fair to what happened to you guys. But I think that it's incredible that you are where you are now. Yeah. And, you know, that you're able to speak about it because it's not an easy thing to do. Even when you're healed and you can be as desensitized as something, you know, as you want, but to sit down and kind of have to re-speak about it to someone that's not your

therapist. It's like, it's a lot. It's like, yeah, I feel like in a way it's like, it can, when you're done, it's like, okay, that was good. Like, I'm glad I got it off my chest, but it is heavy in the moment. And I feel like you do kind of have to ground yourself and be like, all right, like, I'm going back here again, but I'm good. And, you know, I think you did such an amazing job. Thank you. And I think you really did, like we were saying before, like really going through and kind of giving the backgrounds of everybody that played a role. And, you know, you're still so young. And there's the thing is, too, as I've said this before as well to, you know, a couple of my other

guests. It's like, it's totally normal too to have phases that, you know, we're good and we're doing well and we're healing. And then we might have some times when we're sad again. And we, you know, but that doesn't mean that we're going backwards. Yeah. It's part of life. And that's normal.

Yep. Staircase. And I was going to say, too, like, you know, with how you think. thought it was like a broom. Like, I feel like that's so relatable. Because all the time people, like, you'll see something. You're like, wait, am I seeing right? You know what I mean? And then you don't know until after. I was going to ask you, like, do you think that you saw more than you? Yeah. I didn't process. Yeah. And I don't, like, I can think back on it and I can imagine what it would look like, but I have no idea. Right. Which is for the best because like, yeah, I have no idea.

Right. I remember seeing like the shell fly out. because of the way that we were, like, we were very still, like, we were here and the door was probably, like, that, the back wall. And I, like, remember, like, the shell coming out of the gun, you know, like, it. Yeah. And so then it's like I obviously was, you know, watching. But, yeah, I don't. I only can imagine what it would look like based off of, like, what I've heard. Yeah.

And what is, yeah. Right. And it's just like, it's crazy too. Because I feel like with the, with the brother, it's like, I feel like things can go one of two ways. And you really don't know. Like, I feel like some people, like when something like that happens to them or they see that, they could come out from something like that like just naturally just like so good. And like it could, you know what I mean? Like they just some people can deal with it well on their own.

And then some people, if they don't get the help, it's like that messes you up. up for life, especially if you don't get the help. And it's like, you never know which way that's going to, but that's like, yeah, I can't imagine, like, right, seeing something like that is like, because we're not, I don't, we're not meant to see human bodies like that, I don't think. Like, I mean, even being a doctor, it's like, no. But then it's like, you know, that's why these war veterans and everybody, like, they have so much PTSD. It's like, and like, you're seeing something. You hear so often of like somebody, like. somebody like going absolutely bad shit crazy.

Right. And then you find out, oh, they were in in the war. Yeah. And things like that. And it's like, well, they're obviously having a PTSD breakdown right now. Yeah. And they're seeing life from like such a different perspective. It's like, you know, most like a normal person, they walk around life like thinking,

not that you're invincible fully, but it's like you just, you're going through your routine every day. But then I think these other people like they're really, they know how fragile like humans actually are. and they're probably probably just like, how do you like find a balance where you like walk through life normal? But then you also know out at any moment things can just be, everything can be taken away in the matter of seconds. But you did amazing. Thank you.

And I also like, again, like I'm not, I don't want to shit on him because he was a great friend and I'm a great brother. But this is just my experience with him and how I have to live with what he did. Yeah. For sure. Like that. No, I think you did amazing. Seriously.