What A Day - An Epidemiologist Clears Up Covid-19

Episode Date: March 13, 2020

Physician and former Detroit health commissioner Abdul El-Sayed comes on the show to discuss Covid-19. We ask him about the government response, how to avoid overloading our healthcare system, and what we can take from the way other countries have responded. Subscribe to the new season of his podcast “America Dissected” to stay up to date on everything you need to know about coronavirus. Plus, we’ll look at Covid-19 on the campaign trail: both former VP Joe Biden and Senator Bernie Sanders gave remarks on Thursday offering blistering critiques of the Trump administration’s handling of coronavirus and spoke about their own plans for the pandemic. And in headlines: the stock market chews through a big money infusion, a planet rains hot iron, and the ACLU investigates facial recognition technology.

It's Friday, March 13th. I'm Akilah Hughes. And I'm Gideon Resnick, and this is What A Day, where we are currently avoiding black cats and ladders at all costs. I'm not risking shit right now, okay? I just want to go home and be chilled. The dice are not being rolled for me. They're being firmly held. Flasped, if you will. On today's show, we are talking to Dr. Abdul El-Sayed to give you all a little peace of mind about coronavirus, then the latest on what the presidential candidates are saying about it, and as always, some headlines.

Yes, here's the latest. Yesterday was another doozy in terms of cancellations and preparations in the midst of the COVID-19 outbreak. Ohio, Kentucky and Maryland canceled classes for K through 12 students for the next two weeks and are monitoring the situation until that time. Washington state is closing K through 12 for six weeks. And some of the largest school districts in Georgia are canceling, including Atlanta public Schools. The NCAA has canceled March Madness. Every Catholic church service in Italy is suspended until further notice. And Disneyland, Disneyland Paris, and Walt Disney World Resort announced they'd be closing in the wake of the virus. In New York City, where the mayor has declared a state of emergency, Broadway suspended all shows indefinitely.

There will likely be more closures and announcements, so we're going to keep you posted there. Yes, we will. But for today, we want to take a step back from the rush of news coming at you and actually talk to someone who can put this all in perspective. Dr. Abdul El-Sayed is a physician, epidemiologist, and former city health commissioner. He spent his whole career preparing for health crises like the one we're facing now. Yeah, he's the adult in the room that we're all looking for. Exactly. He's also a fellow Crooked Pod host. His show is called America Dissected, and it's all about cutting through the noise on public health. He's launching the second

season today, dedicated completely to the coronavirus pandemic. Honestly, couldn't be coming at a better time. And we thought we'd get him to talk us through some of the latest. Abdul, welcome to the show. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Awesome. All right. So it's Akilah. First, I kind of want to get your perspective on the latest from President Trump and the new EU travel restrictions that he's putting in place tonight at midnight. So there's been a lot of criticism about how he announced it, apparently without consulting

our allies in the EU, and also that the administration had to walk back so much of what he said about how it would work. But from a public health perspective, what do you think of this measure? I watched it on Wednesday night, and I was just like, what? There is clear evidence of community spread in communities all over the United States. What the administration seems to be trying to do is to make this virus appear foreign and that's why they're so focused on some sort of external threat there is no epidemiologic or public health reason to my knowledge that you would fully and 100 ban people from traveling from the entire continent of europe right save the UK. I don't know if you still consider it part of Europe, but like they're awfully close and there is coronavirus

in the UK. It doesn't make sense to me from a public health standpoint. And it seems to me to again be leading with politics rather than the science. And this is the biggest issue here is that this administration's response to this outbreak, now this pandemic, has always seemed to put what's in Trump's political narrative's best interest over what's in the American people's best interest and what is scientifically and evidence-based appropriate in terms of our response. And so it's not the right measure's it's uh not the right measure it comes at not the right time it was delivered in not the most reassuring way and ultimately so much of it is being uh reframed because because it doesn't make sense that's right yeah and we've seen the way that this has played out in other countries in terms of the actual virus you know cases spike and then overload the system And now we're seeing all these cancellations and school closures and work from home measures that

we're taking. Is that sort of a good way to slow down the spread? Or are we at a point at which that should have happened days, if not weeks ago? So this is part of what we call mitigation. And in our pod, we'll talk a little bit about that. But these are the kinds of interventions that you use after you have failed to contain the outbreak in the first place. So sometimes I think about epidemic response like a fire, right? You want to have really, really good fire alarms in your house that tell you when there's even toast burning, because that thing could turn into a fire. And then if it turns into a fire, you want to be able to put that fire out quickly before it engulfs your whole home. And then if it engulfs your whole home, you want to be able to put it out in one home before it spreads to other homes.

But you also want to be able to put up barriers to keep it from spreading to other homes. We're in a position now where we didn't contain the first cases, even though we knew it was only a matter of time until it came to the United States, but we failed to contain it then. And now we're in what's called mitigation, which is how do you make sure that there's less admixture of people to try and slow down the spread because you don't actually know who has it and who doesn't anymore. And so we've overwhelmed our ability to what we call contact trace, which would be the equivalent of like putting out one house at a time. And now we're just in a position where it's

like helicopters dumping water to try and stop the thing from spreading, which in this case is like putting up mass quarantines, stopping mass transportation, reducing the grouping of people in large groups, what we call social distancing. And that has gigantic consequences in society, right? Everything in medicine and public health is a cost-benefit tradeoff. And we know the benefit because it's going to reduce the spread. But we also know that there are costs. And so we shouldn't have gotten here in the first place. You know, if there's a maximum to public health, it's an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And right now we're in the cure phase and it's going to take a lot more cure and the cure has a cost. So we shouldn't have gotten here. But now that we are here, it's really, really important for people to pay attention to their local health officials and what they're hearing and heed those calls because they're necessary and important.

But at the same time, realize that we didn't have to get here. We're here now. So we got to do what it takes. Yeah, that's for sure. And, you know, you talked a little bit about those measures. They've been taking place also in China and South Korea. They've had the biggest outbreaks. So, but they're now showing signs of managing the virus and the spread and they're bringing down new cases. So in addition to those measures, you know, what can we learn from them? Well, what they've been able to do is institute a number of

really important interventions. So one thing that they did is they sort of created a parallel health system to the usual health system specifically for coronavirus. The good news about the coronavirus, if there is any, is that it's got a very stereotyped set of symptoms that it causes. And if you can identify somebody has the coronavirus by, you know, either ruling in that they have it or, you know, knowing that they have those symptoms, a fever and a dry cough without flu and you can rule out the flu, then you're pretty sure they have it. If you can isolate them from the usual health system and take care of them in sort of a side parallel health system, what you can do is you can isolate the virus and you can make sure that you're not overtaxing the health system as it stands. Because it's not like coronavirus comes and all the other healthcare issues that everybody faces go away. The hard part about dealing with

something like this is that you've got to deal with them both at the same time while trying to make sure that they don't make each other worse, right? And so they figured out how to do that in a really thoughtful way. And they've also taken some pretty draconian measures that, you know, force people to, you know, take a temperature before they walk into any building. So they're constantly being, you know, ruled into that very different norms and, you know, we respect people's human rights and personal choices. And so, you know, we're not going to necessarily do everything that they've done, but I think there's a lot of lessons that we can learn from what they did. And the most important one is that this is beatable. It's just going to take a whole of society response with really strong leadership to get it done. Yeah. I mean, do we have the capacity to like build another health system? I feel like I know the answer. That's why I look like, you know, building the kind of field hospitals that you usually see in a disaster zone, you know, outside of major metropolitan areas,

and then moving people into those spaces if and when they get sick to get the care that they need. It may mean, you know, calling up the National Guard to provide some basic services in a time of national crisis. But, you know, this is a really serious thing. It's really important to understand that it's going to take a lot of effort on the part of our country coming together. It's going to mean that, you know, many of our lives, if they haven't already been disrupted, are going to be disrupted. But we're also doing it because we know that even if, you know, we may not be at particularly high risk, and I say this as a relatively healthy 35 year old man, very privileged not to have to worry about my own mortality or, you know, my child's

mortality, but I do worry about my parents and my grandparents and all of our parents and grandparents. And so all we're doing right now is coming together to do the things that we need to do to protect the most vulnerable of us. And though it's going to mean some disruption, and it may mean, you know, calling up resources that we don't usually see called up in our day-to-day lives, it is doable. It's just going to take a big lift. And to that end, you referenced the symptoms as well. And I think that sometimes we are all kind of experiencing the news day-to-day that it's hard to take a step back and realize that people might not know what the actual symptoms are and how to necessarily distinguish between having something else and having coronavirus. So what are some of the symptoms that would be, you know, red flags for folks? And why is it that, to your point as well, that older Americans and people with respiratory issues

are vulnerable to this? Yeah, so the symptoms are a fever and a cough. Those are relatively non-specific symptoms. And the hard part about this is that, you know, even in the context of this, of this pandemic, if you're feeling those symptoms, it's still probably not coronavirus, but it may be right. And that's the moment that in the setting of trying to protect everyone who's more vulnerable, you want to make yourself available to the health system and you want to get screened. And the reason it's probably not coronavirus is just let's not forget that there are still colds and flus and they present very similarly, very similar symptoms. And they're

still going around and they're still more common than coronaviruses. And so those are the symptoms. The reason why, you know, for someone who's relatively healthy, that this is not going to be too serious is just simply because you've got, you know, what we call respiratory reserve or, you know, good lung function. And so even if you get this infection, that it's not going to threaten your ability to, you know, to keep yourself alive. And for most folks who are young and healthy, it'll feel like a bad cold or flu. But for folks who are older, particularly 65 years or older, for folks with underlying lung disease in particular, but really any underlying chronic disease, our body's ability to deal with this infection stresses it to a degree that they might require hospitalization or ventilation to allow a machine to breathe for you in effect. And it can cause death in the, you know, the rates of death in folks who are older than 80 is about

15%, which is one in six. Whereas, you know, overall, it's 2%. And in somebody my age, in my demographic, it's 0.2%, which is about the mortality of a really serious flu. And so we have to remember that, you know, public health really is public. It's about what all of us do together to keep all of us safe. And some of us are more vulnerable than others. And we have to respect that and do what it takes for us to protect ourselves, but also protect others from what might be hurting us. And so it may be that, you know, somebody might get the coronavirus and the most important thing they do is to quarantine themselves to keep them away from people for whom that disease may be so much more serious. Yeah, for sure. Well, a lot has happened in the past few days, you know, with the cancellations and with all of these different

measures and so many hearings. So what are you going to be watching for as we head into the weekend? So I'm watching for a couple of things. Number one, can we get the testing capacity to the people who need it most? So we actually do get to the position where anybody who needs a test can have one. And we're not there right now. Two, we're watching the communities that are lucky enough not to have been affected as fast mount up a response.

And the question I have there is, are they going to be able to contain it in those communities? So, for example, in Michigan, we had our first two cases earlier this week. Because we had a head start in preparing, are we going to be able to contain it in Michigan and in other communities? And then lastly, I'll say that, you know, the costs of, you know, mass mitigation efforts are real. People are going to suffer. And can we as a society rally to protect not just those who are most vulnerable to the disease, but those who are most vulnerable to the interventions for the disease and making sure that we're finally taking on things like homelessness, taking on issues related to paid sick leave,

taking on issues related to a basic income for folks who are going to be affected by this. And can we finally, finally decide that as a society, perhaps people shouldn't have to have their health put behind a paywall and that we can do something to make sure that in this context, people are taking care of when and where they need it. That's right. Well, Abdul, we got to cut you off at this point, unfortunately, because we could just go for hours, both out of concern and for the level of intellect that you're bringing. We really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us, though. It's been great. Yeah, it's my

privilege. I hope folks will want to continue the conversation. We'll check out season two of America Dissected. That's right. We'll direct them there. Everyone definitely go check out Abdul's pod. It's called America Dissected. If you've been looking for really reliable information from an actual expert in this very trying time, this is a good show to subscribe to. It's available starting today, and he'll be updating twice a week with everything you need to know. Staying on the coronavirus but switching gears here to the 2020 campaigns, former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Bernie Sanders, the two remaining viable Democratic presidential candidates, both gave remarks on

Thursday offering blistering critiques of the administration's handling of the coronavirus and spoke about plans of their own to contend with the pandemic. The two men are still set to debate for now, but it will be in a studio in D.C. as opposed to traveling to Phoenix on Sunday. Additionally, the Biden campaign announced that employees are set to work from home now, and the Sanders campaign said they've done the same and are not holding door-to-door canvases at the moment. Sanders is also set to return to the Senate for work after the debate, according to his wife, Jane. Here's Biden speaking in Delaware. Unfortunately, this virus laid bare the severe shortcomings of the current administration. Public fears are being compounded by a pervasive

lack of trust in this President, fueled by adversarial relationships with the truth that he continues to have. Our government's ability to respond effectively has been undermined by hollowing out our agencies and disparagement of science. And our ability to drive a global response is dramatically, dramatically undercut

by the damage Trump has done to our credibility and our relationships around the world. We have to get to work immediately to dig ourselves out of this hole. And that's why today I'm releasing a plan to combat and overcome the coronavirus. Biden's plan includes expanded and free testing, boosting hospital capacity, establishing drive-thru testing facilities, acceleration of vaccine development, among many other things. And here's Sanders speaking in Vermont. or work from home and are directed to quarantine,

it will be easy for us to feel like we are all alone. I'm working at home, not in my office. Or that we must only worry about ourselves and think that everybody else should fend for themselves. But in my view, that would be a tragic and dangerous mistake. If there ever was a time in the modern history of our country when we are all in this together, this is that moment. Now is the time for solidarity. Now is the time to come together with love and compassion for all, including the most vulnerable people

in our society who will face this pandemic from a health perspective or face it from an economic perspective. Sanders' plan included advocacy for Medicare for All, using the example of the inability to pay for coronavirus tests as an urgent call for a change to the American health care system. He also called for, quote, emergency unemployment assistance to people who may lose their jobs and a, quote, moratorium on evictions, on foreclosures and on utility shutoffs, among other things. Yeah. Well, we're going to keep you posted as this story progresses. And please, please, please stay safe out there.

And now for some ads. Former Army intelligence analyst Chelsea Manning was ordered to be released from jail yesterday. Manning was jailed for several months after refusing to testify about WikiLeaks and its founder Julian Assange. A federal judge determined yesterday that her testimony was no longer needed and that she does not need to be detained. She was instead fined over $200,000. The decision also came a day after Manning attempted suicide in jail and was taken to a hospital. This was her third suicide attempt in custody. As a refresher, Manning served seven years in jail for sharing classified materials with WikiLeaks in order to shed light on U.S. military injustices abroad.

She was later released by President Obama in 2017. It wasn't until May of last year when she was subpoenaed to testify and held in jail again. The ACLU is suing multiple federal agencies to demand more information on how the government uses its facial recognition technology. CBP, ICE, and TSA are all targets of the lawsuit, which asks for documents on how face scanning software is being used in U.S. airports and at the U.S. border. Currently, the program is used at over 20 airports in the U.S. to verify travelers' identities. The ACLU argues that the technology is a profound threat to individual privacy and could allow for government

surveillance on a massive scale. On top of that, privacy experts have talked about how inaccurate the current technology is, especially for people of color. Shock surprise. This lawsuit could shed light on what else facial recognition tech is being used for. If it's for selfie filters that don't make people send me compliments on my perfect skin, that's also bad and illegal. We make the law. Yesterday saw the biggest single day drop off in financial markets since the Black Monday crash in 1987. Remember that in times of a pandemic, the safest investment is what we call a mouth fund, where you fit as much money as you can in your mouth and try to keep your friends and family from seeing it. The S&P 500 closed down 9.5% and the

Dow Jones Industrial Average fell by 10%. This was in spite of drastic plans announced by the Federal Reserve Bank. They said they'd buy $60 billion worth of treasury bonds, and they'd pump $1 trillion into short-term lending markets. These cash injections into lending markets are different from the long-term asset purchases the Fed deployed during the 08 financial crisis. These ones will be paid back within three months. One of the reasons they couldn't fix everything is that adding spending liquidity to banks doesn't address the problem of reduced consumer spending. The fact is, COVID-19 is making people spend less money, and the markets are going to respond.

Taking a quick break from Earth, astronomers have discovered a planet an estimated 390 light years away where it rains hot iron every night. Literally metal. It's called WASP-76b, which is a good name for the most heavy metal planet of all time. Another good option would be space help.

WASP-76b has a tidally locked orbit around its parent star, which means there is a day side that always faces the star and a night side that faces away. The day side is extremely hot, which causes metals on its surface to evaporate. When wind blows the vaporized metal to the other side of the planet, it rains down as liquid iron. WASP-76b is an exoplanet, meaning it exists outside of our solar system. And to date, more than 4,000 exoplanets have been discovered thanks to powerful new telescopes being built worldwide. I'm on my way there now.

And those are the headlines. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, leave a dollar under our pillow, and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just the cute biographies inside the tags of beanie babies like me, What A Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at crooked.com slash subscribe. I'm Akilah Hughes. I'm Gideon Resnick.

And we'll see you on Watch 76B. Can't wait to get burned alive. I'm going to be filled with iron. What a Day is a product of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Sonia Tun is our assistant producer. Our head writer is John Milstein, and our senior producer is Katie Long. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.