What A Day - Cash Bail Keeps People In Jail

Episode Date: August 29, 2025

This week, President Donald Trump signed an executive order aimed at ending cash bail in Washington D.C. and other jurisdictions around the country. He summarized the largely successful criminal justice reform policy like this: "They kill people and they get out." Well, it may come as a surprise (to no one) that this statement is… not accurate. All it means is that a person's release, before they stand trial, is NOT determined by how much money is in their wallet. But despite the data showing the policy works, Trump and his MAGA buddies want to end it. To gain a better understanding of all this, we spoke with Rena Karefa-Johnson, Vice President of National Initiatives at FWD.U.S.And in headlines: the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is undergoing a major staffing shake-up, National Guard members are picking up trash in D.C., and President Donald Trump proposes military funeral honors for the January 6th rioter who was killed by an officer at the insurrection…. four and a half years later. Show Notes:Learn more about FWD.usCall Congress – 202-224-3121Subscribe to the What A Day Newsletter – https://tinyurl.com/3kk4nyz8What A Day – YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@whatadaypodcastFollow us on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/crookedmedia/For a transcript of this episode, please visit crooked.com/whataday

It's Friday, August 29th. I'm Josie Duffy Rice in for Jane Koston, and this is What a Day. The show listening to the new John Baptiste song, Petricor, which he described as a climate change warning set to a dance beat. Appropriate, given that it is the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. On today's show, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has a major staffing shakeup, and the Air Force offers military funeral honors for a January 3rd. rioter, four and a half years after she was killed by an officer at the insurrection. But let's start with cash bail. This week, Trump signed an executive order aimed at ending cash bail in Washington, D.C.,

and other jurisdictions around the country. The order instructs his administration to withhold federal funds from the district, unless they change their bail policy, which eliminates cash bail in most cases and has been in effect for over 30 years. He also ordered Attorney General Pam Bondi to provide a list of states and localities that have ended cash bail for certain crimes and instructed agencies to identify the federal grants and contracts and funds that could be withheld from those jurisdictions unless they bring back cash bail. Here's what Trump, as well-spoken as ever, had to say about the executive order.

One of the executive orders has to do with cashless bail. That was when the big crime in this country started. And I can tell you who did it, when, but I don't want to do that, because others followed pretty quickly. But that was when it happened. Somebody kills somebody. They go, and don't worry about it. No cash. Come back in a couple of months.

We'll give you a trial. You never see the person again. And, I mean, they kill people and they get out. As you may not be surprised to hear, this is not accurate. Eliminating cash bail does not mean that people accused of serious crimes like murder can't be detained before. trial. All it means is that their release will not be determined by how much money is in their wallet. Because in a cash bail system, people who can pay bail are released and people who can't are stuck in jail. And over the past 10 years, an increasing number of jurisdictions have

eliminated cash bail entirely. But although bail reform has been largely successful, Trump and his conservative buddies want to end it. And this is just the latest in Trump's criminal justice-related executive order spree. It's yet another concerning example of his expanding federal power and bending local and state law to his will. And it may result in the reversal of strong, evidence-based policy reform at a time when crime in many places is at historic lows. So for more on bail reform and Trump's executive order, I spoke to Rina Karefa Johnson. She is the vice president of national initiatives at forward.us, an organization working on immigration and criminal justice reform. Rina, welcome to what a day.

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. So as we said earlier, Trump's executive order on Monday threatened to withhold federal funding from D.C. if the city does not bring back cash bail. So you are an expert on criminal justice policy. Can you just explain kind of on a big picture level how cash bail works and why there's been a shift away from it over the last few years? Yeah, that's a great question. Basically, when you get arrested or accused of a crime, for the most part, you go in front of a judge pretty shortly after. And the judge has three options. the judge can be like, go home, come to your next court date at this time. Another thing a judge can do is say, give us this amount of money, cash bail, to ensure that you come back to court. That's what cash bail was supposed to be about at its core, right? It was about collateral to ensure people came back to court, your bail is set at X.

That's what cash bail is. The other options a judge can detain you with no bail. So just say, you know what, you actually have to be in jail while we're waiting your tribe. And those are the three options of what can happen. Right. And why do you think we've seen such a shift away from cash bail over the past, I would say, 10 years, right? It's been kind of an inflection point in the criminal justice reform movement. I think over the last kind of 30 years, we saw this leaning into kind of this idea of toughness.

So harsher policies, harsher sentences. And like I said, a distortion of this idea of bail as something that's supposed to be collateral to make sure you come back to court. to something that's just another mechanism to keep more people in jail. So there was a response to that because of the extraordinary amount of harm that those policies were reeking in communities and cities. We had a situation on a tight where half a million people at any given day were kind of languishing in jail having not been convicted of a crime. And what that meant for people is they got arrested for any range of things,

protesting, shoplifting, jumping the turrets, And because they weren't able to pay the amount of cash bail that was set on their case, their entire life was upended. They were incarcerated and subject to the enormous violence of incarceration. They lose their jobs because, of course, if you can't show up to your job, you won't keep your job. They lose their housing for many people, their children get taken away from them because if you get arrested and your kid come home to school and no one's there, then you have a child welfare system case and can lose rights of your children. So basically we had this system that says you're innocent until you're presumed guilty, but in practice what we had was a system where white and rich people were afforded that kind of constitutional presumption and poor folks, black folks, brown folks, immigrant folks, were basically having their lives ravaged before one thing had been proved against them. A big kind of story that folks in this audience or anywhere might remember is Clef Browder's story, who was a 16-year-old kid who was arrested. on allegations of stealing a backpack, had $3,000 bail set on his case, was not able to make that bail,

was on Rikers Island for three years, and endured so much horrific trauma and violence that he ultimately took his own life after he was released, and his case was dismissed entirely. He was found not guilty. So stories like Khalif Brider and the organizing of communities created a larger consensus that criminalizing poverty isn't cool, it's not fair, let's switch our policies so that that's not how we're deciding who gets to be free and who doesn't. Yeah, I mean, something that you brought up is this idea of where we draw the line, basically. You know, poor people kind of get one system and people with resources get another. And when we hear Trump and kind of his little MAGA friends

talk about this, they kind of keep framing it like, we're just letting people walk right out. They've committed violent crimes. These are criminals. They're endangering us. So can you talk a little bit about what you would say in response to these comments because they kind of do seem to work on people. I mean, people believe this narrative on some level. I mean, like, first and foremost, I would say, shut up. But no, in all seriousness, I think what we're struggling with in this moment is an era where people are hearing things that are factually inaccurate. But they've heard it over and over and over again. And it's kind of hard to come. bat this strategically created narrative that serves Republicans with the data.

You know, there was a big study recently that just looked at 33 cities, 22 which had bail reform, 11 that didn't, and did a very comprehensive analysis on whether or not bail reform and letting folks out more pretrial increased crime. Definitively found it did not increase crime. There's also been studies that have looked to see whether or not states that have pushed to legislation to free more people pretrial and let them fight their cases at home impacted how many people showed up to court. It did not. So this idea that kind of being tough in this regard makes us safer or brings crime down or brings violence down is just not true.

It's not accurate. And I think that that makes sense because I think if we thought that like toughness and police and incarceration were the things that made us safer than we should unequivocally be the safest country in the world. And we're not. We know that like addressing some of the root causes of these problems decreases crime. And I, we're almost in a political setting where I don't even want to say that because I see the people rolling their eyes, but it's just like, I don't know what to tell you it's true. Like Medicaid expansion gave people access to behavioral health care that reduced felony arrest from 20 to 32 percent. Access to SNAP, reduced folks recidivating, so being re-arrested after they came home from prison

significantly. Like, getting people what they need, those are the most successful. School programs, yeah. Money. Those are the most successful crime reduction strategies that we've seen in this country. Right. But because what we're actually talking about isn't safety, we can have this conversation about tough and soft on crime

and issue the conversation entirely about the solutions that work. Right. So, Rina, you were part of the effort that led to New York abolishing cash bail a few years ago. And now Trump is kind of making all these threats that he's going to try to enact

these same policies that he's doing in D.C. and other places. And so is there a world in which he could, you know, override the policies in other places? places about cash bail. Yeah. What kind of power does he actually have?

I mean, I think when it comes to this administration, it's slightly less instructive of a question of, like, what can or can't he do? And I think more productive to ask, like, how much are local leaders willing to resist kind of threats and intimidation? So I think it will be up to governors to stand by the... legislation and say, you know, despite the threats, we're not going to change those things. Especially given so much of our criminal legal system happens on a state level, very, very little of it happens on a federal level.

So it would be a massively consequential shift to start staking all of our state level policies based on what the president thinks folks should or shouldn't do. and it would have extraordinary impacts on the number of people who are incarcerated pre-trial. So obviously both of our work focuses on criminal justice, and there's been a real bipartisan push for harsh and, frankly, stupid criminal justice policy over the years, and a lot of it has only exacerbated the incarceration crisis that we face. Well, also, again, not really addressing crime. So how do you think that Democrats should be responded? right now? And what do you think they should be doing differently? Oh, my gosh. Everything.

How much time do you have? That's such an excellent question. And what I would encourage Democrats to do is, like, not take the bait. The crime conversation is a trap. If you're in a tough on crime, soft on crime paradigm, I understand why that's extremely hard to get out of politically. That being said, And I think that the reason why the conversation is on those terms is because Democrats historically have been better at the actual solutions that make people safe. Americans will get down with this crime conversation, but, like, actually what they care about is safety.

Actually, what they care about is living in a city and a community where people have access to housing, where people have access to mental health care, where people are not struggling on the streets. That's kind of what folks want. And I think redirecting the conversation to the solutions that we talked about that definitively, like quickly and in ways that are much cheaper than incarceration and police make people safer is where this conversation should be. The crime conversation is trash. It's like it's just vibes. It's not database.

It's not fact-based. It's not actually something that you can win with don't walk into kind of the trap about crime, which in my opinion is literally just being used as a pretext to erode all of our civil rights and erode due process protections and just make it easier to lock all of us up with less process and for longer. Thank you so much, Rina, for joining us. Thank you. That was my conversation with Rina Karifah Johnson, Vice President of National Initiatives

at forward.us. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. What a day is brought to you by Zbiotics pre-alcohol. Let's face it, after a night with drinks,

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so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to Zbiotics.com slash Wad and use the code Wad at checkout for 15% off. Here's what else we're following today. Head Alimes. This happens too much in our country. And if you look, we really do have,

I think, a mental health crisis in the United States of America. We take way more psychiatric medication than any other nation on Earth. And I think it's time for us to start asking some very hard questions about the root causes of this violence. This is Vice President J.D. Vance, weighing in on the why behind Wednesday's mass shooting at a school in Minneapolis. Blaming the mental health crisis and ignoring actual guns is a well-worn tactic of Vance's. During the vice presidential debate, he said that a big factor in American gun violence is, quote, mental health substance abuse, which is not a thing. Those words don't go together. He also suggested building, quote, stronger doors at schools, ones that, quote, lock better.

Two students were killed and more than a dozen were injured at Annunciation Catholic Church where students of the parish school attended Mass. The shooter was identified yesterday as an Annunciation alum. Their motive isn't totally clear, but authorities are examining a trove of writings and online videos that they left behind. Minneapolis mayor, Jacob Frye, spoke to Good Morning America on Thursday, where he shared a different perspective from the vice presidents. People who say that this is not about guns, you got to be kidding me. This is about guns.

The secretary asked her to resign. She said she would, and then she said she wouldn't. So the president fired her, which he has every right to do. It was President Trump, who was overwhelmingly reelected. On November 5th, this woman has never received a vote in her life, and the president has the authority to fire those who are not aligned with his mission. On Thursday, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt said that Trump had fired Center for Disease Control and Prevention Director Susan Menares after less than a month on the job.

Classic Trump, old-school Trump. Four other senior CDC officials resigned in response to her departure. Menares had refused to resign this week amid pressure to change the CDC's vaccine policy, because she believes in science. Imagine that. So on Wednesday, the Department of Health and Human Services tweeted that she was no longer with the agency. And Maneras's lawyer said a member of the White House's office of personnel

had given her the boot. But Trump has not, and her lawyer argues that Maneras is a Senate-confirmed appointee so only the president himself can fire her. On Thursday afternoon, the White House reportedly moved forward with the ouster anyway, selecting current, HHS deputy secretary Jim O'Neill as the acting CDC director. Louisiana Republican Senator Bill Cassidy called for Senate Health Committee oversight of the agency and said the CDC's next

vaccine advisory meeting should be canceled. Vermont independent Senator Bernie Sanders also called for bipartisan investigation into Menares's dismissal. I'm a big fan of Ashley Babbitt, okay? And Ashley Babbitt was a really good person. who was a big MAGA fan, Trump fan, and she was innocently standing there. They even say trying to sort of hold back the crowd. And a man did something to her that was unthinkable when he shot her. And I think it's a disgrace.

I'm going to look into that. That was President Trump earlier this year, singing the praises of alleged capital writer Ashley Babett, who was killed by law enforcement on January 6, 2021. This week, the could be president. Conservative Legal Group Judicial Watch posted a letter that indicates that the Air Force will give military funeral honors to Babbitt. She was an Air Force veteran, and her family requested military honors after her death. The Biden administration declined to offer them, quote, due to the circumstances preceding her death.

And those circumstances, you may ask, on January 6th, Babette stormed the U.S. Capitol Building, along with thousands of Maga Loyalists, allegedly to stop the certification of the 2020 presidential election, and a capital police officer fatally shot her while she attempted to enter a hallway that leads directly to the chamber of the U.S. House. And that's according to the D.C. U.S. Attorney Office's report. The Air Force says the offer of military funeral honors was in response to Trump offering clemency to everyone accused and convicted of offenses on January 6th. It also claimed that Babbitt would have only been accused of misdemeanor trespassing. The letter even extends a personal invitation for her family to visit the Pentagon. In May, the Trump administration agreed to pay Babbitt's family

nearly $5 million to settle a wrongful death suit filed by her estate in 2024. Things are getting a little weird in D.C. Most of the National Guard troops that Trump deployed are now fully armed with pistols and rifles to handle the so-called crime emergency. But rather than crime emergencies, they've been spotted picking up trash in the park by the White House. They've been spotted raking leaves, and calmly mulching cherry trees. This is all happening in full camo, by the way. So basically, the government is paying roughly $1 million a day for gardening and custodial services.

If only there was a government agency that addressed government overspending, would not be interesting. Or maybe one that handled park cleanup, like, say, the National Park Service, which would normally be doing this if they hadn't lost nearly 2,000 workers after Trump just completely decimated their budget. So this is going great. Also, as it turns out, sending troops all over the city is not great for the restaurant business. The number of people dining out dropped 31% last week, despite Trump saying the complete opposite this week.

I am so proud of what these people, every one of them, what they've done in D.C., because to literally stop crying on a button, I'd walk down that street right down. If I were friends of mine are going out to dinner now, they haven't gone out to dinner in four years. they were petrified. Half the restaurants closed because nobody could go because they're afraid to go outside. Now those restaurants are opening

and new restaurants are opening up. It's like a boom town. So how is D.C. Mayor, Mariel Bowser, responding? This is what we think in just a couple of weeks of experience has worked.

Having more federal law enforcement officers on the street. We think having more stops that got to illegal gun. has helped. We think that there's more accountability in the system, or at least perceived accountability in the system that is driving down illegal behavior. So basically, she's like, this is great. What's the problem? What could go wrong? Those are also added that she will

support Trump's $2 billion request to improve infrastructure, including the federal takeover of Union Station. And that is the news. Before we go, the 2026 Senate map will decide the balance of power and Dan Pfeiffer's breaking it all down on Polar Coaster. He also impacts how skewed polls are inflating Trump's approval and what Governor Gavin Newsom's latest power plays in California mean for Democrats. in 2006 and beyond. To hear the full conversation, subscribe to our Cricket subscription on Substack, YouTube, Supercast, or Apple Podcasts, or visit Cricket.com slash friends to learn more. We are everywhere, so choose a platform that works best for you. That is all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review,

listen to the Floodlines podcast for the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, and tell your friends to listen. to reading, and not just about the newly released episode of Floodlines, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter, so check it out and subscribe at cricket.com slash subscribe. I'm Josie Deffy Rice, and make sure to say happy Labor Day to the National Guard members picking up trash on Monday. What a Day is a production of Cricket Media.

It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Emily Four. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Sean Ali, Janea Pollock, and Lauren Newcomb. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our senior vice president of news and politics is Adrian Hill.

Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. We had help from the Associated Press. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America at East. POMAYOR. Thank you.