What A Day - Harris Campaign Ready For Post-Election Legal Battles

Starting point is 00:00:00 It's Wednesday, October 23rd. I'm Jane Koston, and this is What A Day, the show where we're congratulating all of the Americans who got four-figure checks this week as part of a $300 million class-action lawsuit settlement from e-cigarette company Juul. Buy yourself something nice on the house, the house being a massive corporation. On today's show, the FBI investigates leaked documents detailing Israel's plan to retaliate against Iran. Plus, Rudy Giuliani is losing his home. And a car. And some World Series memorabilia. But first, roughly 20 million people have already voted in the upcoming election, either by mail or in person. A handful of states have even set early voting records.

Starting point is 00:00:41 Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump are running around the country, trying to sway as many voters as they can ahead of what's shaping up to be a historically close election. On Wednesday, Vice President Kamala Harris sat down with NBC for an interview with anchor Haley Jackson. She pressed Harris on whether her campaign was prepared for the possibility that former President Donald Trump claims victory before all the votes are counted. We will deal with election night and the days after as they come. And we have the resources and the expertise and the focus on that as well. So you have teams ready to go. Is that what you're saying? Are you thinking about that as a possibility? Of course. This is a person, Donald Trump, who tried to undo a free and fair election, who still denies the will of the people.

Starting point is 00:01:29 Harris followed that interview up with another interview with Telemundo's Julio Vacario, aimed at undecided Latino voters, especially men. A lot of my agenda is about creating opportunities for people to succeed. So, for example, while Harris was doing that, former President Barack Obama appeared with Vice Presidential nominee Tim Walz in Wisconsin. Obama then headed east for a rally in Detroit, where he was introduced by rapper Eminem. I also think that people shouldn't be afraid to express their opinions, and I don't think anyone wants an America where people are worried about retribution of what people will do if you make your opinion known. Meanwhile, Trump continues to fuel reports that he's exhausted by canceling yet another event,

Starting point is 00:02:08 this time a virtual town hall with his new BFF, former independent presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and former Hawaii Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. I would also skip this. Trump did start the morning at a roundtable with Latino leaders in Doral, Florida. Did he talk about issues specific to Latino voters? Not really. But he again floated his unsubstantiated claims of a, quote, enemy from within the federal government. This time it was in reference to leaked U.S. intelligence documents about Israel's plans to attack Iran. Who did that? Can you imagine somebody doing that? That's the enemy. I guess that maybe is the enemy from within, as I talk about. We have an enemy from within. They hate to talk about it.

Starting point is 00:02:50 But could you imagine? Could you imagine? Trump finished Tuesday with a rally in Greensboro, North Carolina. He once again repeated widely debunked and bonkers claims about the federal government's response and defended his right to make those claims. I followed that horrible storm, and then I came back back and we spent a lot of time here yesterday, met some incredible people. What they've done is unbelievable. They haven't had much help from our government in Washington, I can tell you that.

Starting point is 00:03:19 This whole debunked FEMA conspiracy that Trump won't let go of plays into something darker that's happening in some spaces online. As more Americans become detached from reality amid an ecosystem that thrives on misinformation. That's according to Charlie Worzel. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic who writes about tech and media. We talked about how this misinformation ecosystem could come into play during the election. Charlie, welcome to Water Day. Thank you for having me. So in a piece you wrote this month, you say, it's getting harder to describe the extent to which a meaningful percentage of Americans have disassociated from reality. So naturally, I'm going to ask you to describe what you're talking about here.

Starting point is 00:03:54 How meaningful are we talking about? And what's different from, say, a year or two ago or even four years ago? Because, you know, we both reported on the pro-Trump QAnon conspiracy. So what's different now? The thing that has changed is this notion of people who are sharing things that are truly fake, like fake AI generated images of disasters that happened, but the images didn't happen. And when they're getting called out for these things, instead of deleting the post or saying, oh, I'm sorry, I got duped. Apologies. They're coming out defensively and saying, no, no, no. It represents something

Starting point is 00:04:32 that feels true, right? I know to believe is true that has happened. And therefore, no, I'm not going to take it down. In fact, I'm proudly going to share this because it's almost truer than true. Right. The idea that it feels true, which means that it is true. And the knock on effects are obvious. You know, we've seen a FEMA hurricane recovery team had to be relocated over safety concerns about an armed militia. The town of Springfield, Ohio, was terrorized after Trump and his running mate, J.D. Vance, made false claims about Haitian migrants eating pets. Both of those stories were thoroughly and repeatedly debunked. But to your point, Vance even said, you know, we need to create stories to get media attention because even if the stories are fake, then people start paying attention

Starting point is 00:05:16 and then something will happen that will be good for us. So I think that that really speaks to your point. Yeah, and something I wanted to get at near the end of that piece that I think is very important is that the aggregate effect of this is that anyone whose job intersects or attends to reality is a person who will eventually become under attack by this type of misinformation or who will be harassed or bullied or whatever in the real world. We're going to see this probably with election workers, right? They're going to be the targets of a lot of misinformation and harassment and probably threats and terrible stuff at the very local level because they're just the people who

Starting point is 00:05:55 are standing in between reality and this conspiracy theory. And I think that's just over a period of time, everyone's going to spend some time in the meat grinder there. And it's coming for everyone in a way that's really grim and troubling. So what's the goal then? Is it to persuade people to buy into it? And if so, why? I mean, I would say in some cases money, because culture war is a perfect money generator because you can't win it and you can't lose it.

Starting point is 00:06:24 But from a political perspective, does this kind of alternative world building, does it motivate voters? Is it pulling new people who are scared? Like, what does it do? Why are we here? So I think that there is definitely a group who are financially motivated. There's a group who are politically motivated to rile people up, etc. But something I wrote in the piece, and it's not my idea, but it's borrowed from Michael Caulfield, who studies disinformation and misinformation at the University of Washington. He has long had this theory that we often think of misinformation as persuasion, right?

Starting point is 00:07:00 Here's a person who goes about their time thinking normal thoughts, and then you throw a conspiracy theory at them them and boom, they have a new worldview. He believes that it's really actually about inoculating people from having to see the truth. Right. It's to keep people in a bubble. It's to reinforce a belief system. So rather than people having to at least even mentally kind of go through the exercise of why are storms getting worse? Why are we having these hundred year rain events or whatever every three weeks in the fall in Florida? Instead of having to go through that, you can default to this other theory, right? That the government's engineering these things because it's an election year. And of course they are, right? Or, you know that the government's engineering these things because it's an election year. And of course they are right. Or, you know, the government is trying to hurt communities in rural red areas so that they don't go out and vote and, you know, they can protect their thing. It's this idea that it's not really persuasion. It's it's the opposite. It's kind of an entrapment.

Starting point is 00:07:57 And I think that that goes to my next question, which is what happens when the alternative reality isn't real? I think we've seen that already a couple of times. I was so struck by how like the right wing comments fear became convinced about a month and a half ago that Kamala Harris was mere seconds away from dumping Governor Tim Walz from the ticket because of something. And you saw all of these accounts talking to each other about how this was actually going to happen. It was so terrible. And he was such a bad person. It was so obvious. And then in actual life, like he's the most popular person running on either ticket. None of this happened. And, you know, I've argued in the past that the work to get to January 6th, 2021 started in March

Starting point is 00:08:35 2020, when the entire right wing sphere started saying that Trump couldn't lose. And then he obviously did. So there is a point for everyone in which all the stuff you talk about or believe in has to run into reality. What happens then? Do we just get January 6th? I think there's a spectrum of it, right? There are people who I'm sure ultimately get tired of this and disillusioned with it. You know, maybe it's not a meaningful group, but I'm sure there are people out there for whom that happens. I'm sure there are people for whom it becomes a time when it feels so desperate that you do resort to violence or real life protest, things like that. But I go back to the point you made about not being able to lose or win a culture war.

Starting point is 00:09:17 You just keep fighting it and you just keep finding ways, right? There's sort of always a way to weasel yourself out of it, spin it back around into, you know, the grievance complex, because again, it's a situation where it's never over, right? The next conspiracy is right around the corner, and that's why it's profitable. Another tech writer named Jason Kobler argued in a similar piece that we've entered into what he called the fuck it era of like AI slap and political messaging. And I've thought a lot about how I wrote in 2020 that Trump's campaign was way too online, like incredibly online. And now the entire right wing sphere is so online and talking to one another in these siloed spaces. And so the AI slap and the political messaging is bouncing back and forth among the same group of people.

Starting point is 00:10:03 So looking forward to November, how do you see these trends playing out and what's expected to be a razor thin election? I don't know that you can be too online at this moment for a campaign. I think regardless of what happens on election day, I think there's going to be a very weird period of chaos, right? I think it's inevitable inevitable i think probably the only way that there isn't a lot of post-election day chaos is like a donald trump landslide right a semi-decisive harris win i think that will unfortunately trigger a lot of these world building misinformation systems to go into overdrive. So that's sort of my grim prediction. That is bleak. Is there anything more optimistic that you're thinking about, about this? Like,

Starting point is 00:10:52 is there a way out of this or through it or under it? Something. I'm so, I'm terrible at parties. So the two things that have me feeling a little bit optimistic are one, Donald Trump is not in power. So I think that that's like a very, in terms of transfer of power, things like that. I think that that's like, it's quite a meaningful point. And it's something that people should also keep in mind that it is not 2020. part of this is we tend to run these scenarios for the next election through the exact lens of the old one. And we have seen some of these playbooks run before they will be run differently, probably. But I also think like, there is a group of people in place that are being vigilant about this. So I think that those two things are different from 2020 in a meaningful way. And I am slightly optimistic that at least this is going to be matched with a counteroffensive if something 2020-ish begins to happen. Charlie, thank you so much for joining me. It's always really good to see you.

Starting point is 00:11:55 Yeah, it's great to see you. Thanks for having me. That was my conversation with Atlantic staff writer Charlie Worzel. We'll link to his piece in our show notes. We'll get to the news in a moment. But if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. And now, the news. Headlines. Deeply concerned, and the president remains deeply concerned, about any leakage of classified information into the public domain. That is not supposed to happen, and it's unacceptable when it does. So he's deeply concerned about that. On Tuesday, the Federal Bureau of Investigations announced it is investigating a possible leak of classified

Starting point is 00:12:44 documents that allegedly outline Israel's plans to attack Iran. The announcement comes days after the U.S. intelligence documents, some of which were labeled top secret, were posted on an Iranian-linked Telegram account. Here's White House National Security Spokesman John Kirby speaking with reporters during a briefing on Monday. You can rest assured that he will be actively monitoring the progress of the investigative effort to figure out how this happened. The leak is considered one of the largest breaches of U.S. intelligence in years. The documents were allegedly from the National Security Agency and the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. Israeli officials say the leak has no impact on its plans to take further actions against Iran.

Starting point is 00:13:24 Secretary of State Antony Blinken was in Israel Tuesday, where he met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and according to the State Department, the conversation focused on the need for Israel to take additional steps to increase the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza. Blinken apparently took it a step further and said that if conditions don't improve, Israel risks losing U.S. military support. He encouraged Netanyahu to use the killing of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar as an opportunity to secure a hostage deal and end Israel's war in Gaza. Blinken and his team also questioned Netanyahu about the so-called General's Plan, in which members of the Israeli government have suggested taking full control of northern

Starting point is 00:13:59 Gaza by starving and or shooting any civilians who refused to leave. Blinken also met with other Israeli officials throughout the day, including Defense Minister Yoav Galant, and postponed a scheduled visit to Jordan. He's set to travel to countries in the Middle East this week to continue ceasefire discussions for the war in Gaza and the conflict with Hezbollah in Lebanon. Former mayor of New York City, Trump loyalist and disbarred lawyer Rudy Giuliani was ordered by a federal judge on Tuesday to turn over his Upper East Side penthouse to two Georgia election workers who he defamed. Giuliani first circulated a video of Shea Moss and Ruby Freeman counting ballots on election night, making false claims that they were committing election fraud. The video was played during Moss's testimony before the United States House Select Committee on the January 6th attack. Ruby Freeman and Shea Freeman Moss and one other gentleman, quite obviously, surreptitiously passing around USB ports as if they are vials of heroin or cocaine.

Starting point is 00:14:58 I mean, it's obvious to anyone who's a criminal investigator or prosecutor, they are engaged in surreptitious illegal activity again that day. Moss and Freeman's lawsuit claimed that Giuliani's comments caused them emotional and reputational harm and put them in physical danger. Giuliani was found liable for defamation in August in order to pay $148 million to Moss and Freeman. But he doesn't have $148 million,

Starting point is 00:15:22 and his bankruptcy filing got tossed because he wouldn't cooperate with the courts. So now he gets to hand over his apartment, several luxury watches, a signed Joe DiMaggio jersey, and a Mercedes previously owned by Lauren Bacall. Donald Trump is set to go on the Joe Rogan experience this week. Politico was the first to report that the former president will record a conversation with Rogan on Friday. The upcoming interview is seemingly part of the Trump campaign's push to reach young male voters, a demographic that Trump is popular with, but doesn't always actually show up to the polls.

Starting point is 00:15:53 Rogan's podcast boasts 14 million followers on Spotify, most of whom are men ages 18 to 34, and it's generally known to be friendly to conservative voices. But he's never had Trump on the show. In fact, Rogan has said in the past that Trump and his team have approached him multiple times to have the former president on the show, but the podcaster has always turned them down. Here he is in the Lex Freeman podcast in 2022. By the way, I'm not a Trump supporter in any way, shape or form. I've had the opportunity to have him on my show more than once. I've said no every time. I don't want to help him. I'm not interested in helping him.

Starting point is 00:16:30 But maybe now he is. Vice President Kamala Harris' campaign is also reportedly in talks with Rogan for a potential interview, though that hasn't been confirmed. And that's the news. One more thing. Over the last few weeks, a lot of people have been noticing the same basic phenomenon. Man, Donald Trump spends a lot of time screaming about how he wants to punish his enemies. In fact, that's kind of his whole deal now. Sure, his campaign will tell us that he's very concerned about access to IVF. He isn't. Or that he cares deeply about nutrition. Come on. But what he wants to talk about is how much he wants to put the people who don't like him in prison, or send the military after them, or some horrifying combination of the two.

Starting point is 00:17:11 A new report from NPR found that Trump has threatened to prosecute or punish anyone he doesn't like more than 100 times. And we've got the tape to prove it. Let's start with his attacks on the media. And that's a big statement because he does it a lot. But let's talk specifically about CBS and the show 60 Minutes. Think of it, 60 Minutes, CBS, and they ought to lose their license and they ought to take it off the air. But we all know that 60 Minutes is hardly alone. The threats are to all of the press.

Starting point is 00:17:41 And I abuse them also. So, you know, I do that. Did you say, did you target them and say, I'm going to go attack media and I'm going to go after them? Is that part of strategy that you had or no, that was just, no, if you come after me, I'm going to come out. I think it's a natural instinct with me, you know, like it would be for you and other people that know how to win a little bit. Sure. And then there were the threats to send reporters to jail. And if the reporter doesn't want to tell you it's bye-bye, the reporter goes to jail. And if the reporter doesn't want to tell you, it's bye-bye. The

Starting point is 00:18:05 reporter goes to jail. But the threats aren't limited to the media. There are, of course, his threats to President Joe Biden. I will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the United States of America, Joe Biden, and the entire Biden crime family. And a reminder to all of us how he will, I mean, preside over the country if he gets back into office. As president, you have tremendous, it's called extreme power. You have extreme power. And of course, this classic. I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed,

Starting point is 00:18:48 I am your retribution. I am your retribution. No, thank you. Now, we could be here for another 20 minutes listening to more times Trump threatened someone because of reasons that only make sense to him. Or I could simply remind you that when you vote, you can help us avoid all of this and avoid putting that guy back into the White House. Before we go, Crooked's Friends of the Pod subscription is offering a massive 25% off new annual subscriptions to Relection Day.

Starting point is 00:19:19 That's $30 in savings when you subscribe today. Every day at Crooked, we're working to build a progressive independent media company at a time when trustworthy voices are more important than ever. And no matter who wins in November, we're committed to delivering that to you. The best way to support that mission is by subscribing to Friends of the Pod. Monthly subscribers can easily upgrade to an annual plan,

Starting point is 00:19:38 and new subscribers can join in less than a minute. You'll get ad-free episodes of Pod Save America, subscription-exclusive shows, and lots more. Subscribe now at crooked.com slash friends or through the Pod Save America feed on Apple Podcasts. That's all for today. If you liked the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a review, contemplate what you would do with Rudy Giuliani's Upper East Side apartment after you smudge it to rid it of the ancient spirits, of course, and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just contemplating the non-reality of internet reality and whether it reflects the triumph of postmodernism, like me, What A Day

Starting point is 00:20:12 is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at crooked.com slash subscribe. I'm Jane Koston, and good for you, Shay and Ruby. Good for you. What A Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Raven Yamamoto. Our producer is Michelle Eloy. We had a production help today from Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, and Julia Clare.

Starting point is 00:20:40 Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our executive producer is Adrian Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.

What A Day - Harris Campaign Ready For Post-Election Legal Battles

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