What A Day - Honoring The Legacy Of The Clotilda Descendants

Episode Date: February 3, 2023

To kick off our series on Black History Month, What A Day host Juanita Tolliver sits down with Veda Tunstall and Emmett Lewis, descendants of enslaved people brought to Alabama aboard the Clotilda, the last known slave ship in American history, and whose stories are featured in the Netflix documentary "Descendant." What A Day is taking a short break, with a new episode on Tuesday, February 7th.Show Notes:Watch ‘Descendant’ | Netflix – https://www.netflix.com/title/81586731What A Day – YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@whatadaypodcastCrooked Coffee is officially here. Our first blend, What A Morning, is available in medium and dark roasts. Wake up with your own bag at crooked.com/coffeeFollow us on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/whataday/For a transcript of this episode, please visit crooked.com/whataday

It's Friday, February 3rd. I'm Juanita Tolliver and this is What A Day. This Black History Month, the What A Day team is excited to bring you stories about Black history that are happening in real time, and we're excited to kick things off with a conversation about the Netflix documentary, Descendant. This film outlines the search and discovery of the Clotilda, the last known ship to arrive in the United States illegally carrying enslaved Africans. After a century of secrecy and speculation, the 2019 discovery of the ship turns attention toward the descendant community of Africatown in Mobile, Alabama, and presents a moving portrait of a community actively grappling with and fighting to preserve their heritage while examining what justice looks like today.

The film won a special jury prize at the 2022 Sundance Film Festival, and I had an opportunity to speak with two Clotilda descendants. Take a listen to our conversation. So today I'm joined by Vida Tunstall, a Clotilda descendant, and Emmett Lewis, a direct descendant of Kajo Kazula Lewis, the last known survivor of the Clotilda. Emmett and Vita, welcome to What A Day. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

All right, y'all. So I have watched Descendant a few times now, and every single time I watch it, I'm struck by the fact that this is the first time that a lot of us in the audience are witnessing Black history being uncovered in real time. And that's even though this story was passed down through your families, through the Africatown community for what, more than 160 years? And so can you tell me what it felt like filming this documentary, but also witnessing the world learn about this piece of Black history for the first time. Vida, why don't you start us off?

The filming was, it didn't really feel like I was doing anything. We were just talking with Margaret and it just felt so organic and casual. So there was nothing special about filming, but the way the world is receiving this film has blown my mind. What about you, Emmett? In the beginning, it was like that little fear of telling your family story to the wrong person so you know I had that little fear of just speaking out on my family story not because I felt like it would get in the wrong hands but more along was

that was my goal that was my treasure like that's what's me so I didn't want to tell that story but like I tell everybody I was fortunate enough to, you know, meet Margaret. And Margaret was one of those people that make you feel like a friend instead of a person that she interviewed. Right. And Vito, when you talk about the world receiving it, I know what my response has been. I told you before we started recording, count me as one of the impacted individuals. What are some of the big moments that you recall as you have been talking to more and more people about this that really stuck with you? The most common thing I hear is thank you for telling your story. People come to us after a screening and they're like, thank you so much. So many people are not able to know where their family came from. And it's like they join us

in this. So I'm thankful that we know it and that I feel almost guilty sometimes that we are able to know where we came from. And so many people who look like us aren't. But people are so thankful. That's the common theme is thank you. Right. And Emmett, you talked about the fear of telling the story. And let's be real, the threats that the people of Africatown had over their heads in Alabama since they were dropped off on the shores has been a constant undercurrent, the threat of violence, the threat of lynching. But we know that your ancestor, Kajo, spoke to Zora Neale Hurston about his experiences in 1927. Tell me about the bravery and risk that Kajo took in even speaking to Zora, but also the way that you were introduced to Kajo's story. What I think was brave about Kajol, like, it's just him being himself.

And if you pay attention to the book, like, Zoria said that it took her a while before Kajol talked to her. And she brought gifts. She brought watermelons. She brought peaches. She brought a lot to coax that out of him, right? Yes. And that's more along, like, with the same thing what I say. It's just the fact of was young. Like I said, I got my story from my father. I got my story in the graveyard. I got my story just sitting around talking to my father. So I connected more with Kudjo because my father always told me I was a leader. I always told me I was a warrior.

I always told me I had warrior blood. We're hearing all of that and then hearing the story of Kudjo and hearing how his people chose him to be a leader that made me want to submit myself more to trying to be like my ancestors. Right. And you talk about the graveyard. I'm a scared girl. I'm scared of ghosts. But one thing you said in the documentary that stuck with me was like, no, you should always be able to talk to your ancestors, right? That was a constant theme through this entire project. Yes. I never felt alone. And I always felt like if I needed anyone to talk to that, I didn't want an opinion or I didn't want any judgment, go to the graveyard. I know a lot of people laugh when I say it, but

it's sort of similar to that Lion King story. Like just simple looking into the clouds at the Kings before him. That's how I feel for me. That's not funny at all. That's the realest part of this. The other real thing, just to paint a picture for our listeners, Africatown was a thriving community built by black people who knew more about being free than enslaved. And Vida, can you describe Africatown of the past compared to the experience now in Africatown when we know the injustice environmentally with the industries that have moved into the community and taken over some of this historic land? Yeah. Africatown, it was a whole community. It had everything it needed. It had a doctor's office. It had barbershops and grocery stores and schools and churches and everything a community needed.

It was self-sustaining and it was self-governed until it was incorporated into the city of Mobile, I believe in the 50s or 60s, in the 1950s or 60s. So this is very recent history, but the violence takes a different form. You've heard the pen is mightier than the sword. So right now we got people down at city hall with the pen and that's where the violence takes place. We have all this industry that surrounds the community that is steadily encroaching. Like you can feel it going inward and just making a community smaller and smaller. There are not as many houses as there used to be. And also that the mayor family, you know, our ancestors and slavers also still own land in Africatown. And they also lease it

to some of this industry that's polluting the community and is growing. But even when land becomes available, then you have to be concerned about what it's zoned as. Right. Because in order for the community to grow, you know, we want to see houses there. I want to see people live there again. I always say my ancestors did not found a tourist destination. They founded a residential community. A self-sufficient residential community. Yes. So, you know, there's a lot that goes into bringing this community back and it's little bitty steps, little bitty steps. And I got to confess, as the documentary progressed and we get to the part where the Clotilda is found and they present the community with even a rendering of the conditions on the ship.

I had a lot of emotions like I was feeling so much because I think those emotions were compounded by the fact that a lot of the white local leaders or reporters or representatives from National Geographic even were excited and had this glee in their voice. And it seemed misplaced and detached and disconnected from the humanity of the Africans who were kidnapped and enslaved and brutalized through this process. Emmett, what were your reactions as this new physical piece of Black history was found? B, you know how I am. Let it out. It's a safe space, Emm.E. Say it. It's a safe space. So when I first came aboard on the film, that was the major question was about that ship. And after I said that I would like to go touch the ship and feel what my ancestors felt, I said right after that, the ship still didn't matter to me. I said it was only the fact of being able to touch something that my ancestors touched.

That was my only concern about it. Right now, it feels like we were shot with a gun and the people are worshiping the gun instead of thinking about the victim. I think that part is what is getting at me because like you said, the connection of where your ancestors were, feeling it, seeing it, it was important, but it should not be the focal point. And the other thing I recognized from that moment, Vida, was that you had a very different reaction from your mother. So I feel like there's some generational pieces here because I think at one of the community celebrations, your mom, Vida, she said, quote, I feel completion and that healing has begun. And I was like, hold up, right? Like, and then you came through, Vida, with your reaction. Talk me through your reaction to

the Clotilda being found and why you think you and your mother had very different responses. When I saw that, I saw my grandparents, you know, like grandparents that I know. I basically could see those grandparents in that position in the hold of that ship. And I lost it. Now, these are my third great grandparents who were depicted on that ship. OK, so it really struck me. Like you said, there was the glee. Like this is a story to a lot of people, but it's not a story to us. This is our history. So to get to my mother. Oh, she said heavy sigh. Oh, I'm with you.

At the community center, when they unveiled that depiction of the Clotilda, when we sat in that meeting, I saw all the politicians who were there and who don't show up unless there are cameras out there. So that was a big deal when the shit was found. Everybody, you know, wanted to be there. So when I was sitting there, I could literally feel the energy and I could tell who was who and what people's intentions were. So my mother is the forever optimist and she believes in all the good in people and everybody has potential to be good. I believe that, too, to a certain extent. But in that moment, that's not what I was feeling. So I was feeling who's here to benefit and who's here to profit and how we fit into that.

And that's when I said I feel like we're a part of it. I don't want us to be a part of it. I don't want us to be along for the ride. So my mother doesn't quite see it like that. She's a little bit more agreeable than I am. No, and I appreciate your candor about that. And the reminder that this ain't just about the ship, right? Like it's also about the mayor family. We have a lot more to cover in this conversation and we'll be right back after this ad. sad. One thing I appreciated was that Kamal Siddiqui, the founder of Diving With a Purpose, the Smithsonian Institution's marine archaeologist from the Slave Wrecks Project,

he was explicitly clear and said, you all, the descendants, have to define justice. So I want to hear from both of you. What has your community come up with so far? Emmett, kick us off. Oh, you would ask me first. I'm just a community member. Like I tell everybody, I'm just a community member that's not afraid to speak out about my past. So when it comes to what's going on now, it's more along of still at the starting line for me. A lot of people can say they see progress, but I don't see the progress in the areas that I would like to see it. And maybe that's selfish, but this is my community. I feel what I feel. And I don't want Africatown to turn into a tourist attraction. I don't want Africatown to turn into a museum attraction. I don't want Africatown to turn into a museum.

I'm not saying that we can't benefit from tourism. I'm not saying that we can't benefit from museums or any of that. But the first thing people have to understand is this is a community, a still thriving community. We are not we're not as successful as we used to be, but we are still here. We're still surviving. So when you come down here with tourism, understand that you're not riding through an abandoned neighborhood. You're not riding through a museum or a safari. We're not animals. We're not a zoo. We're parking in front of our houses while we're outside in our boxes and tanks. I was checking the mailbox.

So just live in life. Yeah. Yeah. So it's becoming to the point where we have people in this community that's being afraid. And I'm like one of the few, as they say, powerful voices from out here. So I get all of that coming to me on a daily anytime because my house is right here in the center of plateau. And these are people that are everyday normal people that don't feel like they have the power to go to the politicians. They don't have the power to just speak out. And even in that sense, when I get overwhelmed with the politician side of it, that's why I have

B. So that's why I kind of laughed when you said you would start off with me because B answered those questions better than me. I discussed everything with B. Me and her, we make sure we're on the same page. So let's talk through this tag team from your side, Vida. Like I know that Emmett, clearly you are explicitly clear in what you want in your definition of progress.

Vida, how do you square that with your own perspective, but also presenting that to the powers that be, for lack of a better term? Yeah. And Emmett does not give himself enough credit. Right. Because I'm like, don't downplay anything you just said, friend. I get it. And, you know, the only thing that happens is Emmett and I just feel the same about a lot of things. And that's why it's so easy for us to talk because we definitely will tag team and we agree on what we want to see the community, where we want to see tourism go or not go, you know, whatever the case is. We have very, very similar views on that. Now, as far as justice goes, I don't know that there is justice. I still believe that because the people who did this, the Mayer family, Timothy Mayer, a few generations ago, he's not here. So we can't punish him. You know,

the current mayors, I don't feel like punishing them or not punishing them or making them pay. I don't feel like that's really justice. So for me, I feel at this point, I feel like it's moving on. It's not really let bygones be bygones or anything. Timothy Mayer is not off the hook. Like his name is forever going to be mud. But this always leads into a reparations conversation. And I don't know the leads into a reparations conversation.

And I don't know the answer to the reparations question. Right. There are a couple of other moments in this documentary that I have to ask y'all about. Emmett, one of them was explicitly an interaction you had with a random white guy

who walked into the graveyard while you were standing at Kajo's plot. And he asked you a couple of questions at the end of the conversation. He was like,ajo's plot. And he asked you a couple of questions at the end of the conversation. He was like, okay, cool. And walked off. And I was like, that's how you're engaging with this history. That's how you're engaging with a direct descendant. Like, tell me about how you experienced that interaction and what you actually want people to experience when

they engage with your family's history. With that experience, it showed me exactly what has been done throughout the years with this story is you can catch a few people that they're interested. They're like, oh, okay, this is a story about this. And then they go get the story however way they get it. And like you said, we had a conversation. The conversation was actually longer than what was recorded. Of course. But tone of that conversation, it was exactly how it was in the movie. That's just how that conversation went. It was no deeper than that.

So after just talking to the guy and listening to him, I was expecting some deeper questions or something more. Something. Yeah, something more along the side of any intentions of what he had. But instead, I just got a few pictures taking up Cudjoe's grave. And he proved to me that no matter how big the story is, that people are still going to look at it, get what they want out of it and keep moving forward, not worry about anything else concerning the story once I walk off from it. Right. I do think that storytelling, though, was the undercurrent

for me. Watching this, speaking to you two today, and it was the undercurrent to keeping the history alive for the 160 plus years that we didn't know about it until 2018 with Barracoon being published is also key to the history of your family. So can you both tell me about how you plan to keep telling the story and more so how you plan to protect the history? Well, for me, I look at things a little differently. Like I said, my father is my biggest inspiration. That's my God. That's who I look up to. That's my superhero, my Batman. So, you know, before my father died, he tried to teach me everything that he felt you should teach a man. But all that I got out of it was being a great father. So with that being said,

I'm blessed with having three little girls and I finally had my little boy, my junior. And I am blessed to have girls that love to hear me talk. I plan on keeping the story going by upholding the traditions that I felt my father had. I'm going to keep teaching my kids. I'm going to try to explain to them to the best of my ability of what their ancestors mean. But like I tell everybody, you're going to gather your own feelings and your own thoughts of your ancestors. Like I look at my ancestors as how I look at my father. So that's why I look at them so strongly. And I

can only hope that with me teaching my kids this, that they can look at it the same way I did. Yeah. And for me, my mother, like Emmett talks about talking to the ancestors, and my mother has done that in a different way. It's just something I always grew up with. My daughter passed away six years ago. I'm so sorry for your loss. Thank you. I don't know if that makes her an ancestor now, but very connected to my daughter. My son is now very interested in everything there is to learn. So I'm continuing to pass it on to him and everything I learn, I'm teaching him. But that's just how we're keeping the history alive is just continuing to talk. It's the same way your ancestors did it for 160 years. It seems tried and true at this point. And

I'm just so grateful again for your time, for your candor, your honesty, your realness, like will never be forgotten. Thank you again for sharing your history with me and with our listeners. And thanks for joining What A Day. Thank you guys. Thank you for having us. That was my conversation with Vita Tunstall and Emmett Lewis, Clotilda Descendants and featured voices in the Netflix documentary Descendant. To learn more and to support this work, visit descendantfilm.com and watch the film on Netflix. That's all for today's show. Thanks so much for listening. What a Day is a production of Crooked Media.

It's recorded and mixed by Bill Lance. Jazzy Marine and Raven Yamamoto are our associate producers. Our head writer is Jossie Kaufman and our executive producer is Lita Martinez. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.