What A Day - Is TikTok Doomed?

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

TikTok’s days in the U.S. may be numbered after a federal appeals court upheld a federal law late last week to force the ban or sale of the social media app. The case could ultimately end up before the Supreme Court. President-elect Donald Trump has also promised to reverse the ban, even though he tried to ban TikTok in his first term. Louise Matsakis, senior business editor at WIRED, walks us through all the what-ifs of a future without TikTok. Later in the show, Bloomberg senior editor Stacey Vanek Smith talks about what the incoming Trump administration’s enthusiasm for cryptocurrency means for all of us.And in headlines: A suspect in the killing of UnitedHealthcare’s CEO was arrested and charged in Pennsylvania, Lara Trump eyes Marco Rubio’s Florida Senate seat, and Biden faces a growing pressure campaign to use his clemency powers.Show Notes:Check out Louise's work – www.wired.com/author/louise-matsakis/Subscribe to the What A Day Newsletter – https://tinyurl.com/3kk4nyz8What A Day – YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@whatadaypodcastFollow us on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/crookedmedia/For a transcript of this episode, please visit crooked.com/whataday

It's Tuesday, December 10th. I'm Jane Coaston, and this is What Today, the show that has polarized about Merriam-Webster deciding that polarization is the word of the year. Some of us are supportive of this decision, and some of us are very, very angry about it. And I feel like there's a divide between us on this. I wonder what that's called. On today's show, Bitcoin is spiking and Trump is filling the White House with crypto enthusiasts.

What does that mean for the future of American currency? And Biden is asked to commute to sentences of federal death row inmates. Let's get into it. TikTok's days may be numbered. A federal appeals court on Friday upheld the law that could ban the app in the US. TikTok argued that such a ban would violate users' right to free speech. But the three-judge panel disagreed and maintained that TikTok must divest from its Chinese parent

company, ByteDance, or lose its US market. On Monday, TikTok asked an appeals court not to enforce the ban until the Supreme Court decides whether or not they want to take the case. TikTok also argued that delaying enforcement would give President-elect Donald Trump and his administration more time to clarify if they are pro-ban or want to keep the app, because right now it's kind of unclear. We've talked on the show before about how Trump tried banning TikTok during his first term in office. He was 100% on board with all the lawmakers who said China is using TikTok to spy on Americans.

But on the campaign trail, he changed his tune entirely, and promised that he would not let a nationwide ban go into effect. During Trump's interview with NBC's Meet the Press earlier this week, host Christian Welker asked Trump if he plans to keep that promise. But in true Trump form, his answer was all over the place. Listen for yourself. And I use TikTok, so I can't really, you know, I can't totally hate it. It was very effective.

But I will say this, if you do do that, something else is going to come along and take its place. And maybe that's not fair. What they do, and really what the judge actually said was that you can't have Chinese companies, in other words, they have the right to ban it if you can prove that the Chinese companies own it. That's what the judge actually said. So are you going to try to protect TikTok just very quick, once you're in office? I'm going to try and make it so that other companies don't become an even bigger monopoly.

Okay. Because that's what happens. I do not know what that means. I wanted to talk to someone who could run through the possibilities of what comes next. So I called up Louise Metzakis. She's a long-time tech reporter and the senior business editor at Wired. Louise, welcome back to What A Day. Hey, how's it going?

So with regard to this case, was this ruling the expected outcome? I think before this all started, absolutely not. I think the idea of blocking a major social media platform in the United States was sort of an unheard of idea. However, recently, yes, this was expected because during the oral arguments, it seemed like the panel of judges were already sort of leaning in this direction and they were very sympathetic to the national security arguments that were being made by Merrick Garland and the Department

of Justice. I want to get into those national security concerns because I feel like I've heard two different versions. One is the kind of more fear mongeringmongering, they're making things trend to make Americans into bad people. But then I've also heard the idea that the Chinese government is using the app to surveil users.

Can you tell us if there's any merit to that claim? Does the federal government actually have any evidence that the Chinese government is using the app to surveil users or influence them in some way? The answer is no. I do not think that there is any public evidence at least that the Chinese government is using this app in particular in order to surveil Americans. There have been no reports of that specifically in terms of widespread data collection.

And I think it's important to note that that's not because the Chinese government is benevolent, but because there's a lot of other avenues where they can get the sorts of data that they're interested in. There's a lot of reporting right now about how the Chinese government has been accused of hacking a number of major telecom providers in the US. So that would probably give them a lot more information

about patterns of communication, the phone numbers, and maybe addresses, and maybe other data of the types of people that they're interested in. So it's not that this hacking isn't happening, but there's no public knowledge that it's happening through TikTok specifically. It looks like the case is headed for the Supreme Court. TikTok has asked that the federal government hold off on enforcing the ban until the justice's way in. The court's conservative supermajority is known to rule in favor of free speech, but this is a little different, especially when you bring in those national security concerns. Do we expect the high court to rule in favor of TikTok? I think everything is on the table. I think that these are judges who have definitely shown that they believe in sort of a wide

breadth of free speech rights and sort of, you know, leaning in that direction. However, historically, including in the ruling we just saw on Friday, courts give a lot of leeway to national security arguments and they also give a lot of leeway to the executive branch. There could be, you know, a number of avenues that could open up for, you know, President-elect Donald Trump to potentially do something here. So we can sort of see a mixed ruling where, you know, some parts of the law are upheld and then other parts of the law are able to go forward. What was interesting to me about the ruling on Friday was how the court said that, you know, the First Amendment gives you the right to ensure that your free speech is not infringed upon by the US government.

But what they said was that what this law did was infringing on the free speech of a foreign platform, of a Chinese-owned platform. So it's sort of like this idea that the First Amendment is not a global right, and that it's not protecting the rights of Chinese companies or foreign companies. There's a lot of different ways that the court could interpret that, and I wouldn't make bets either way.

Let's say TikTok loses again. Can someone still buy the app to satisfy the DOJ? Has anyone shown any interest? Yes, I would say one of the people making the most noise right now about wanting to buy the app is a real estate investor named Frank McCourt. And there's been some reporting that he's raised about $20 billion to potentially buy it.

However, the question really is whether or not ByteDance, TikTok's parent company, would really want to sell it or be able to. When this issue first came up four years ago, when Trump first tried to ban the app, the Chinese government signaled that they wouldn't allow this sort of sale to go through. And I don't think that there's really any indication

that that's necessarily changed. But yeah, a number of people like McCord have sort of raised their hand and said, Hey, I'll take it. But whether that sale is realistic, I think is an entirely different question. You mentioned just a moment ago that Trump tried to ban TikTok during his first presidency. There was a lot of conversation among Republicans about how TikTok was very dangerous for some of the reasons that I mentioned a little earlier. We've talked in the show before about how Trump flip-flopped on this completely and he's promises to save the app if he's elected and he has been.

What could he do to reverse the ban? Once he's inaugurated. So one of the things that he could do is he could decline to enforce the law. So even if the law stays and the Supreme Court decides to uphold it, he could basically just say, I'm not going to go after Google if they continue hosting TikTok in their app store. I'm not going to like, you know, come and try and shut down TikTok's headquarters in Los Angeles.

However, he would potentially then be violating another law, which basically says that presidents need to continue to uphold the laws that have already been passed. he would potentially then be violating another law, which basically says that presidents need to continue to uphold the laws that have already been passed. So that's why we don't have a situation where when a new president is elected, they just say, oh, forget all these other laws that have already existed. I don't care about those, right? It's potentially possible that he could then get in trouble for ignoring a law that is considered the will of the people and that Congress overwhelmingly voted to pass. That January 19th deadline is coming up very quickly. If TikTok doesn't divest from ByteDance, does that mean the app just disappears from the

app store and our phones? So the app won't necessarily disappear from your phones. The technical specifics do remain a little unclear, but what could potentially happen is that when you try to use the app from a United States IP address, it may no longer work. Apple and Google would be liable for tens of thousands, potentially millions of dollars of fines for continuing to host the app in their app store. So that means no new users.

But it still is unclear whether or not, let's say you flew to Mexico or to Europe, whether the same app on your phone would work or if you need to download a different version. I think a lot of those questions remain really unanswered. And that's been a big source of the confusion here is like, and if a sale does go through, will you be on this app where there are only other Americans? Because TikTok is only being forced here to divest its US operations, right? So does that mean like, you know, the creators I follow in Japan or in France or wherever, I just won't be able to see their accounts anymore, right? Like those are the sorts of things that we don't really know. And that

certainly By Dance is probably trying to hash out right now. And I also want to talk briefly about the broader legal implications of banning an entire social media platform in the US. Does this set a precedent that could be used to ban other social media apps? I think it definitely does set a precedent for banning foreign-owned platforms in the US, but what I worry about is that American platforms are dominant in most parts of the world. And so I worry about other countries saying, hey,

you ban TikTok for national security reasons that were sort of vague and based on hypotheticals. Well, it's a national security risk for my authoritarian regime that people are allowed to protest on Facebook. So I'm going to ban Facebook, right? And I think that underlying hypocrisy will be really hard to argue against on the global stage. Louise, this has been really helpful. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me.

That was my conversation with Wired Business Editor Louise Metzakis. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. And now the news. Headlines. And now the news. He is believed to be our person of interest in the brazen targeted murder of Brian Thompson, CEO of UnitedHealthcare last Wednesday in midtown Manhattan. NYPD Commissioner Jessica Tisch announced the arrest of Luigi Mangione Monday, a suspect

in the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Thompson was killed last week in Manhattan, where the company was holding an investor conference. Mangione was arrested in Altoona, Pennsylvania after he was recognized at a McDonald's. In a press conference, New York City Mayor Eric Adams attributed the arrest to a photo of the suspect circulated by the NYPD. We sent it across the country and someone, a McDonald's employee, did something we asked every American to do. If you see something, say something, but most importantly, do something.

Tisch said local police officers then questioned Mangione, who was, quote, acting suspiciously. Officers recovered a firearm on his person, as well as a suppressor, both consistent with the weapon used in the murder. They also recovered clothing, including a mask, consistent with those worn by our wanted individual. Tisch said Mangione was carrying multiple fraudulent IDs, as well as a U.S. passport. She said police also recovered a handwritten document that, quote, speaks to both his motivation and mindset. That's a lot of things. The NYPD says the document noted, quote, ill will towards corporate America.

Mangione had a preliminary arraignment in Pennsylvania Monday night where he was formally hit with multiple charges, including forgery and carrying firearms without a license. He was ordered held without bail. More than 100 faith groups, civil rights organizations, current and former prosecutors, and even the Pope are asking President Biden to commute the sentences of federal death row inmates before he leaves office. In letters to Biden made public Monday, groups like Human Rights Watch and the ACLU

asked the president to commute all federal death sentences to life in prison without parole. They appealed to Biden's Catholic faith and the fact that he campaigned against the death penalty. The ACLU also released ads to bolster its request. They include a plea from Herman Lindsay, a former Florida death row inmate who was exonerated by the state's Supreme Court.

The weight of those years on my mind, my body, is something that I still live with every day. President Biden, this is your legacy. Commute the road. Driving this pressure campaign on Biden right now is the fact that Donald Trump campaigned on his support for the death penalty. Trump also wants to expand the pool of crimes eligible for capital punishment. Right now, there are 40 men on federal death row.

They include the surviving Boston Marathon bomber, the man who killed nine black churchgoers in Charleston, South Carolina, and a gunman who killed 11 people at a Pittsburgh synagogue. Donald Trump's daughter-in-law, Lara Trump, is stepping down as co-chair of the Republican National Committee. She made the announcement late Sunday in a post on social media, saying she plans to formally resign at the next RNC meeting. Her co-chair, Michael Watley, is staying on. And she's practically begging for the Senate seat that's about to be vacated by Florida Senator Marco Rubio. The president-elect picked him to be his secretary of state pending

Senate confirmation. Speaking to Fox on Sunday night, Lara Trump downplayed good old fashioned nepotism as a factor in potentially getting that seat. I think probably my last name does heighten my political profile a little bit, but I've got a proven track record. Has Laura Trump ever served in government or run for election? No. But sure, it's definitely her experience and not her last name that could win her the job. Once Rubio vacates his seat, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis would have the power to appoint his replacement to serve until 2026, when a special election would be held for the remainder of

Rubio's term. DeSantis says he's already vetting candidates. An unnamed woman who accused Sean Diddy Combs of raping her at an awards show after party in 2000, when she was just 13 years old, added Jay-Z to her lawsuit Sunday, saying he participated in the assault. In a statement released on Twitter, Jay-Z denied the allegations and called them a blackmail attempt. He called the plaintiff's lawyer, Tony Busby, a, quote, ambulance chaser in a cheap suit, and said the accusations amount to, quote, theatrics. Busby has filed more than 100 lawsuits accusing Diddy of sexual assault,

but many of those cases have not gone forward due to his clients wishing to remain anonymous. Since Jay-Z's statement, Busby claims his family has been harassed. The woman's lawsuit alleges that Diddy and Jay-Z took turns assaulting her after she was given a drink that made her feel lightheaded. It also accuses Jay-Z of holding her down while Diddy assaulted her. These claims are part of a litany of lawsuits against Diddy that include federal sex trafficking and racketeering.

And that's the news. One more thing. I have a confession to make. Despite being a smart, well-reasoned, and well-informed person with a job that's literally telling you all about why and how stuff works and is happening, I am still not exactly sure how I feel about cryptocurrency. Honestly, I think I actually agree with President-elect Donald Trump. Bitcoin, it just seems like a scam. Well, to be clear, that was Donald Trump speaking with Fox Business in 2021.

This is Donald Trump at a Bitcoin conference this past summer, sounding a little different. This afternoon, I'm laying out my plan to ensure that the United States will be the crypto capital of the planet and the Bitcoin superpower of the world. Sure. The new Trump administration is full of crypto enthusiasts. Trump himself has his own crypto coin and his sons have a crypto exchange. Bitcoin's worth is skyrocketing and more people than ever are getting into cryptocurrencies. Like it or not, and I am not inclined to like it, crypto is going to be a major factor over the next four years,

even if you, like me, don't own any. So I thought I'd ask Bloomberg Senior Editor and friend of the pod, Stacey Vanik-Smith, some questions about what cryptocurrency means for everyday Americans. Stacey Vanik-Smith, welcome back to What A Day. Thanks, Jane. I'm glad to be here. So first of all, can you explain what is cryptocurrency? And please explain it to me as if I were a high school freshman who is usually just not thinking about cryptocurrency. I mean, it is in certain ways incredibly simple, which is it is money

that people agree is worth something and they trade it. Normally the value of money comes from the government that issues it. So the United States issues the United States dollar and all of the businesses within the country are like legally required to accept it. It's legal tender. The government sets the value, it's backed up by the US economy.

And so it's sort of seen as backed up by a real thing, by a country. Then there's crypto. And the interesting thing about crypto is it's not attached to any country. Obviously, the advantage is it's not, you know, if your government collapses or there's terrible inflation, or the government's trying to freeze your assets. It's separate from that. It is currency you can own yourself. The tricky part is it's hard to know like what it's backed up by. People will say, it's the blockchain. I feel like that word gets thrown around

like nobody knows what it means. It's a public record. So if I give you, part of a Jane coin, then there's a record of it. Now, how much is the Jane coin worth? That gets trickier, infinite amount of course, but like that gets trickier because it's like, well, it's not like a country's having a good day or a bad day

or a country's economy is doing badly things that you can traditionally measure. It's more like what people are deciding it's worth on any given day. It's like vibes. Why is it that it seems like the people are deciding it's worth on any given day. It's like vibes Why is it that it seems like the people who are into crypto like talk about it all the time are kind of? Bro, we in right wing well one reason people talk about crypto all the time Is that the valve it's sort of like the like in Peter Pan when they're like clap for Tinkerbell

So that she exists. I mean, the value of the cryptocurrency people have is literally dependent on how much you think it's worth. So that is why if you've ever been like backed into a corner at a party and had someone like explaining crypto to you and like why it's so amazing and the currency of the future, they have a real investment in you and everybody else believing that.

So the reason that you have like kind of evangelists is that if you, if, if everybody stops believing in Bitcoin, Bitcoin will be worth nothing. And then also I think it's a little countercultural because it is people who have a little bit of a suspicion of the government. I think the profile for people who own crypto and the profile for people who own gold is not that far off, right? Which is why I think libertarians tend to favor it. And so I think that faction of the Republican Party tends to be into crypto. People who are suspicious of government, want a small government, don't want the government controlling things. But that's kind of funny

because so many people in the incoming Trump administration are crypto bros and big fans of crypto and people who may even have minted their own coins. Does this have any implications for policy, for our personal finances, for people who are still really into the US dollar? Yay, the dollar. I am also really into the US dollar. Big fan. I've invested in it. Trump winning the election has gotten the world of crypto very, very excited. I mean, Trump issued his own coin, the Trump coin, which peaked at 66 cents a piece, I think, and is now at six cents or something. But he issued his own coin and he's been very vocal about pushing for crypto. I think part of it was motivated by money. So a lot of crypto people donated a lot of money to his campaign

and Trump has very seems to be delivering on it. The new head of the Securities Exchange Commission that Trump has nominated is this man, Paul Atkins, who has also been very vocal about thinking that crypto should be allowed to sort of roam freer or become kind of a bigger freer asset than it is. More mainstream, I guess. And what does that mean? Do you think? I mean, we don't know. I don't know anything. But what does that mean for policy moving forward and for everyday Americans who might not own crypto? This is really interesting. I mean, what you said is like very true,

I think for all of us, like we don't know. I think what we're gonna see is the regulation come off of a lot of crypto and crypto become much more seamlessly easy to buy and sell, much more integrated in our financial system. Maybe people getting paid in Bitcoin, or you're able to buy Bitcoin through your bank or pay for stuff with Bitcoin more easily.

I think we're likely to see that, just a greater ease of use, much more integrated into our economy. And I think just into our day-to-day lives. But it's very volatile and it's not backed up by a government or an economy. And that is what scares me, I think, about crypto is that if there's a crash and it has become so, I mean, it's one thing if like a bunch of very wealthy tech bros who back you into a corner at a party own it. It's another thing if everybody's saying like, oh, I've got to put my savings into this because

otherwise because some guy at a party told me I should. And then all of a sudden everybody's savings is gone and there's no reason why and there's no one held accountable. I don't know that that is the part that scares me. I think the both the really exciting part of crypto and the really dangerous part of crypto are kind of the same. Stacey, thank you so much. This has been very informative. Yes, thank you so much for having me, Jane. It's always good to see you.

That was my conversation with Stacey Vanek-Smith, Senior Editor at Bloomberg. Before we go, if you care about the planet or even some of the people who live on it, the time for action is now. As part of Crooked Ideas' Anti-Dome Initiative, we're spotlighting the people who are fighting for our planet and working to solve the climate crisis every day. Stick around to the end of this episode to hear Crooked correspondent Priyanka Aurobindi's conversation with Indigenous actress, model, and climate advocate, Kwanah Chasing Horse. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review,

celebrate Taylor Swift ending the ERA's Tour after 21 months on the road, and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading, and not just about how the ERA's Tour raked in $2 billion and entertained 10 million people who definitely didn't make it their entire personality, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com slash subscribe. I'm Jane Coaston and that is so many friendship bracelets. What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Raven Yamamoto.

Our producer is Michelle Eloy. We had production help today from Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, and Julia Clare. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Collin Gillyard and Kashaka. Before you go, check out my interview with indigenous actress, model, and climate advocate Kwanah Chasing Horse. I'm Priyanka Arobindi and I sat down with Kwanah as part of our Anti-Dome Initiative to talk about why she's hopeful about the future of the climate.

You grew up in Alaska, very connected to the Arctic, to the whole region. You've been fighting to protect the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge from mining, drilling, and fossil fuel interests since you were a teenager. So what have you learned from that fight and what continues to inspire you? I definitely learned a lot. Growing up with such powerful elders

and leading examples in my life have really laid a foundation of how I work and how I show up. My first thing that really inspired me and taught me that I had a voice, that I had power was when I went to the school board and I advocated for them to change Columbus Day into Indigenous Peoples Day. And that's when I realized, you know, I have a voice, I have power, and I can carry that. And it's not just from the examples of my aunties and people around me, but the strength that I have comes from generations. The thing that really brought tears to my eyes one of the last times I went home was I had an elder, she was in her 90s, and she was brought to tears and she said,

because of you, people see us. She cried about how she felt seen for the first time in her entire life. So back in 2020, you shared a poem with Teen Vogue. It referenced a lot of the staples of the environment that you grew up in. Moose, birch trees, hunting, fishing, berry picking. You also went on to talk about the women in your family and how they kind of taught you to stick up for your rights and your land. Can you take us back to that time in your life and explain a little bit about

how they imparted these lessons? I would say it mostly started when I was like 12 and 13, when I really started to become more aware of the world. And, you know, I had very minimal access to the outside world. And, you know, the women around me that raised me really took the time to make sure that they were teaching me the right things. Bringing me into spaces where I was learning a lot, you know, making sure that I was spending time with elders.

Having them just simply bringing me into those spaces has taught me how to sit in professional spaces, whether it's political to modeling and fashion to, you know, the climate space. I know how to show up in those spaces and I know how to listen because when I go into different spaces I carry their stories with me as well. You know when I feel like I need moments of guidance where I don't feel like I'm fully in my power enough to feel confident to show up and do what I came to do, you, I channel all of those teachings, I channel those stories, I channel the power through the women and community that I was raised up in. Absolutely. In that same interview you said, quote, I'm not an

environmentalist, I'm an indigenous youth trying to stick up for our ways of life. That's a really interesting and I think important distinction to draw. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you think about that? Ever since I started doing this work, I never really understood those kinds of labels just because that I never related to them. I never felt like that's what I was. I never felt like an environmentalist. I never felt like an activist or whatever. Like I felt just like a person that cared about what was happening to my people. Like it wasn't something that I just chose

to care about one day. It was definitely something that I saw was affecting my family, myself, my people, our animal relatives, my mom's dog team, because they are our family, just as much as we are with each other, you know, and I think really making sure that we're taking care of each other and the only way to do that is to take care of the planet. Kwanagee Singhorst, thank you so much for being

here. We so appreciate your time. Thank you so much for having me. For our Anti-DOOM initiative to work, we need more people to know that a better future is possible. Learn more at crookedideas.org and to make sure that your voice is heard on everything that you care about, please vote.