What A Day - Surveilling The Police

Episode Date: September 11, 2020

Viral videos of police brutality against Black people have generated outrage, protest, and sustained national attention this year. We talk to Bijan Stephen, a reporter at The Verge, about his latest project called “Capturing The Police,” which examines the impact these videos have on the people who film them.Another 884,000 people filed for unemployment last week, which is more than economists were expecting. The Republicans failed to pass their “skinny” relief bill in the Senate, and it’s not clear whether another deal will be reached before the election.And in headlines: the NFL kicks off their season, Microsoft announces election hacks, and Mike Pence gets friendly with QAnon.Show Links:https://www.theverge.com/21355121/new-civil-rights-movement-police-brutality-protests-film-videos-black-lives-matter

It's Friday, September 11th. I'm Akilah Hughes. And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco, filling in for Gideon Resnick. And this is What a Day, where we're scared to see what the sky looks like today. The sky needs to play the hits. What happened to blue and clouds? Yeah, I mean, I'm not ready to be living in a pair of sunglasses, so figure it out. Alyssa, glad to have you along again today. As a reminder, and just because I really like saying it, Alyssa served in the Obama administration and among many other fabulous things. She co-hosts the podcast Hysteria. All right. On today's show, a conversation with reporter Bijan Stephen about videos of police violence and their impact on the people who filmed them.

Then some headlines. But first, the latest. Bob Woodward is somebody that I respect just from hearing the name for many, many years, not knowing too much about his work, not caring about his work. But I thought it would be interesting to talk to him for a period of, you know, calls. So we did that. I don't know if it's good or bad. I don't even know if the book is good or bad.

So that was some bizarre posturing from none other than Donald Trump yesterday, saying he had heard the name Bob Woodward for decades, but wasn't familiar with his work before he spoke to him for a total of 10 whole hours and told him that COVID was deadly and airborne way, way back in February before he called it a hoax a million times on Twitter for the rest of the year. Akilah, let me just get this straight. Wasn't familiar with his work. Donald Trump has been watching all the president's men for like 40 years and misunderstanding the plot

for as many years. Yeah, he had no clue though. He had no clue. And all I really want to know is when do we get to file the class action lawsuit? Because he talks about being a boss and I guess that makes us his employees. And if a boss treated their employees like this,

they'd file a class action lawsuit. So someone start the online petition. Yeah, let me know what the website is so I can enter my information and get that money. All right. It is the 19th anniversary of the September 11th terrorist attacks. The West Coast is still suffering from uncontained fires. There's a pandemic. And there's more news about another topic that we've been following, policing.

We've all seen how viral videos of police violence have generated outrage, protest, and sustained national attention, especially this year, but the full impact of these videos is still taking shape. How much will they lead to lasting change? What does watching them do to our mental health? And maybe one of the least explored questions, what impact do these videos have on the people who actually film them? The Verge just published a new project called Capturing the Police, and it aims to answer those questions. The heart of the project is a series of interviews with bystanders, protesters, and citizen journalists who have recorded police violence this year at protests or in their daily lives, asking them why they chose to film these encounters and what it's been like for them since.

Bijan Stephen led the project. He's an amazing tech reporter, a friend of mine, and he's here to talk about it. Bijan, thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah, thank you for having me. Hello from New York. I miss it. I miss it so much. Oh, I know. All right. So yeah, let's talk about one of these videos that was filmed by Isaiah Benavidez in Texas in June. So he was driving in a car behind his friend who was pulled over by police officers, and Isaiah started filming the encounter immediately, which I think makes sense.

But it's kind of also interesting how, you know, there's this automatic almost defense mechanism as a form of protection to start filming so that there is a record. So he ended up capturing a violent arrest. So then what sort of happened? Yeah. So, I mean, basically what happened was, uh, there, the police, that police officer got fired because, you know, apparently he had, he'd had a record of somewhat racist and problematic behavior. Um, but yeah, I mean, it is like a protective instinct. I think basically for a lot of reasons, I think 2020 is a lot different than like say 2014. Um, which is to say like, I think now people understand they have to, like, pull out their phones and they see, like, something that might go bad. And you see this all the time at protests.

And it's basically, like, I think it is a protective thing because I think it's important. I think people realize how important it is to have their own record because a lot of the time, like, all you have is a police report. And, like, the police don't necessarily see the same things that we do as problematic. And it's important, I think. And I think people know that it's important for them to have their own sort of like record. So it,

that matches their recollections. So this officer gets fired and Isaiah, you know, obviously I would say probably feels okay, like pretty good that he got this footage, but you know, what, what was his sort of feeling afterwards beyond that? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting. Cause like he, I think it was also brave for him

to talk to us. Our reporter, Justine Calma spoke to him and he said that he worries now about police following him. And he tries to like avoid going out alone. Like he says, he literally says, I get nervous. A lot of people have died already trying to do what we did. And if you don't stand up, who's going to stand up? It's's like he understands like he's nervous i think rightly so because like i don't know texas is i grew up in texas i know what texan cops are like you do not want to be on their bad sides um but like it i think it's interesting because he understands the position like he understands why he did what he did um and the consequences and is also is now living in those consequences

and like again he's changed his behavior like he doesn't go out alone. Yeah. So like yeah it doesn't just affect you know the person

who you know was saved by this footage it doesn't just affect Right. It's a cop it affects the person who took the risk because

you know there is still an unchecked power in this country that can make your life hell for holding them accountable. Like it still exists. Yeah. It was just one battle that he won and the war is still very much on. I mean, yeah, I think that like, you know, I'm sure you agree with this, but I think it's worth asking. I mean, do you think that these videos are getting us to this truer understanding of what policing actually looks like in America?

Yes, because nobody believes black people when they say this is what policing was like. True. Which is like, that's the big thing. It's like, you know, like now there's irrefutable proof. It's also live streamed and stuff like this. Stuff is being entered. This is one of the interesting things I think that is new about 2020. It's like stuff is being entered into the public record as history as it happens, which is kind of incredible when you think about it, because you don't have to like go back to your

computer to upload something like you may have had to in 2013 or 2014. Like you can just stream it directly to Facebook and Facebook will capture a record immediately as like a default thing. You can now see what's happening at the front lines whenever you want. Like somebody there is streaming, somebody is recording. Um, there is, there is a record of this stuff. And I think that's, I think it's really important.

And it's, I don't know. The other thing is like watching a lot of these videos is like, can be harmful to your health. Like it is sort of triggering. And I don't know, it's like hard to watch like people who are tasked with protecting you, beat the shit out of other people who look like you.

Um, right. I mean, dude, I literally can't do it. And I tried to make that point on the show after the George Floyd protest, because I think that, you know, while it is this beautiful thing that we have the technology and the ability to capture injustice so that it has to be held accountable, it's like you wouldn't share a video of a dog being murdered brutally

with everyone you know. Like you wouldn't go out of your way to be like, hey guys, look at this dead person. Like you just wouldn't do that. And I think that that lack of humanity is something that we're slowly coming to like, you know, understand and, you know, sort of like fight against. Because I think that in, you know, maybe 2015 and 2014,

when there were all of these instances, it was kind of new to see it that egregiously not on like a nightly news but like from a cell phone yeah so now that we are like more aware of that i think that it's fair that we're having the conversation of like so how do you responsibly share this and is the message lost if one person bears witness and says there is footage like do we all have to bear witness i guess like can we still be effective i definitely try not to watch those videos because they're just snuff films and it's like i can't that's that's technically it's illegal you know theoretically right yeah it's like you never you in those videos you never

see anybody other than black people dying and it's like hmm would you share this video if the person dying was white probably not and it's one of these things that i don't know and this is like that's obviously speculation and whatever but but, I don't know, and this is obviously speculation and whatever, but yeah, I don't know. I think it's one of these things that there is an argument to be made that once you've seen one video,

you've basically seen them all. And you don't need, if it hurts you to watch them, you don't have to watch them. And that's something that I realized back in 2014. I was like, fuck this. I'm not going to watch any more

black people die on my internet my internet on beyonce's internet no absolutely not and it's one of those yeah and i don't know i i really like the technology is good i hate that it takes a video every time to change people people's minds because this is all like again to step all the way the fuck back like this is all about white people learning what's happening like it not, it has nothing to do with stuff we didn't already know. You know what I mean? Right.

This isn't the first conversation we've had about it. This is just the one where we showed up with the video. Like, so we could just skip that step and listen to black people. Yeah, yeah. We could just skip that step. We're not there yet. I can feel it.

I mean, it's been 29 years since Rodney King, right? So like, bruh. You're not wrong. I mean, what would you say to people who feel frustrated, you know, that even now we have all this footage and there isn't this big change, right? Like, I do think that we can't downplay the, you know, the fact that the defund movement is bigger than it's ever been. Yeah. But I think, you know, how would you explain to someone who's like, well, so now we're seeing all this and now there's another video. Like every week there's still another video. Yeah.

I mean, like this is entirely on politicians. It's entirely on our elected officials. And like the only thing to do is like vote them out and, you know, hold them accountable. I mean, voting takes a very long time. If you're rich, hey, and you're disgusted, hey, try using your money to change somebody's mind. Because, like, straight up, like, this is how, I mean, this is how our political system works, right? And it's, like, this is, like, a sad fact of the system. Like, it does sort of make you feel powerless and weak and, like, and helpless.

But, like, I think, like, on a more personal, interpersonal level, like, the thing that you should do is, like, talk to your neighbors. And start, like, talking to your local city council members. And like the people around you are the people who are going to save you. And like they're they're the people who can help you because, again, they're like they live in your community. Like the only thing is to act locally. And also, if you're thinking about running for office and you have good politics, please do it. Yeah. I mean, so, you know, protesters and other bystanders can also end up in the videos and we've heard, you know, warnings that authorities can potentially use phone data and phone footage against people.

So what do you kind of make of that risk? Basically? Yeah. There are risks to this stuff. Like it is, it is risky to, um, to take your phone to a protest. Like there's a bunch of technological ways that, you know,, basically it's all through advertising, which is the weird thing. It's like, digital advertising is the thing. Like, those companies that, like, traffic in that data also give it to the police. So one way to, like, you know,

one way to stay safe is, like, to get a burner phone and, like, you know, don't ever, like, have it on in the same place as your actual phone or whatever. Like, there's a lot of advice online. I think it is a risk, obviously obviously but i think it's much more important to to like to show up with other people and for other people like at a protest like it's like that kind of solidarity it's like it's that's the thing that changes people's minds like right like the risk is worth

the reward right exactly and it's like again this is an individual calculation. As with so much risk in America, they leave you to figure it out by yourself. But I think, yeah, I mean, it's important to show up for other people and with other people. I don't know.

It's an individual decision. But yeah, this is the largest protest movement in American history. Like, you know, is it worth it? And this is sort of what I wrote in my story,

the one that I wrote, which was like, you know, it's, is it worth it? Like this is, and this is sort of what I wrote in my story. The one that I wrote, which was like, you know, like if you've ever wondered like what you would do during the civil rights movement, like, well, you have your answer. It is now. It's like, whatever you're doing right now is what you would have done then. And I think, I don't know. I hope a lot of people realize that. Like, I hope that people understand that this people understand that this is a historical moment that we're living through. And the things that you do and the records that you leave and the trail that you leave are going to be poured over by other people.

They're going to know what you did. Right. Wow. Bijan, thanks again. And congratulations on the project. It really is excellent. So everyone listening, please check it out. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon.

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. That was Bijan Stephen, a reporter at The Verge. The project is called Capturing the Police Check, we've got some big news for anyone with spaceship access. NASA announced yesterday it's looking for private companies to start mining rocks and dirt from the moon's surface, and they're willing to pay for it. The idea here is to establish a legal precedent for collecting and selling moon materials, which is a step towards setting up a permanent self-sufficient presence on the moon. So Alyssa, this is obviously a huge opportunity. What would you tell our listeners who want to mine the moon? Well, Akilah is someone who's watched Apollo 13 about 500 times and really feels it when the lem can almost not reenter the earth's surface because it's not carrying all the moon rock. So I'm all for harvesting as much moon rock as we can.

I have two, two questions. One, can we make sure the contracts don't go to Trump donors? One. Number two, can we employ the same tactic for our bridges and roads? Yes. Yes. Actually, good point. When is infrastructure week? Is it happening? We've been waiting for 100 years. I just don't know. I mean, my feeling about the moon is like, I don't know why we keep messing with it, but if there are extra rocks that won't be missed, sure. Sell them for a few bucks on your Etsy.

Make a necklace or some earrings. Poison someone with it. We don't know if it's good for us. They don't have an atmosphere. So honestly, look, if you can get them back here, however you do that, just make sure you don't like make the moon upset. I really don't need any more problems. So that's pretty much how I feel about it.

All right. Well, just like that, we have checked our temps. Stay safe. Wear your moon boots if you're going to be on the moon. You don't know what the weather's going to be like, and that's what they're for. And we'll check in with you all again next week. Let's wrap up with some headlines. Headlines. That's slightly more than economists were expecting and is causing concern that the so-called recovery is slowing down. Really feels that way. Currently, almost 30 million people are receiving unemployment assistance, which was drastically cut back when Congress let emergency federal aid expire at the end of July.

Thank you, Senate Republicans. It's now the second week of September and we're still waiting to ditch Mitch. Yesterday, Republicans failed to pass their skinny relief bill in the Senate, which would have extended unemployment assistance, but cut it in half. Democrats say the bill is inadequate to meet the scale of the crisis. I definitely agree. They're continuing to push for a full reinstatement of unemployment aid, as well as another round of stimulus checks and money for local governments. It is unclear if a deal will be reached before the election. I doubt it will. So the NFL season kicked off last night with a socially distanced game between the Houston Texans

and the defending Super Bowl champs, the Kansas City Chiefs. The Chiefs hosted in a stadium that did have real people in it, but way less than usual. Only a few season opening games will have live crowds, and then it's back to the new scarily quiet normal. Another addition to season opening games will be live performances of Lift Every Voice, which is often called the Black National Anthem. The song will come on before the other National Anthem, which was written by a slaveholder and includes lyrics that support slavery. On the topic of canceled National Anthems, a recent Washington Post poll found that the majority of Americans think it's appropriate for athletes to kneel during the anthem to protest racial inequality. An even larger percentage, 62%, said athletes should use their platform to express

their views. That didn't stop members of the other 48% from booing at last night's game when the Chiefs and Texans asked for a moment of silence to oppose police brutality and racial injustice. It's almost November, which means we're officially deep into election interference season. Microsoft said yesterday they've seen a slew of new hacks from the Russians, Chinese and Iranians related to the 2020 election. The same Russian hacking group that was active in 2016 is back at it, fresh off vacation from Gilead, targeting at least 200 organizations on both sides of the aisle. China seems to be focusing their efforts on Biden while Iranian hackers

are going after Trump. According to Microsoft, neither group has been successful. All the intelligence news over the last two days makes it even more frustrating that Trump's administration isn't holding in-person intelligence briefings for Congress. Those were suspended two weeks ago by Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe. Trump's campaign is still getting more Q-friendly. Top officials, including human megaphone Kim Guilfoyle and ceramic VP Mike Pence, are slated to speak at a Montana fundraiser next week, which is hosted by a devoted QAnon couple. Karen and Michael Borland are major Trump donors who have shared numerous QAnon posts on their social media. The reward is an afternoon with Mike Pence, who is the subject of a different conspiracy theory, which asks, how did this man get his hair to be so hard?

In the past, Pence has said, quote, I don't know anything about QAnon and I dismiss it out of hand. Dismissing it out of hand is actually Q code for flying to Montana to see people who love Q. Anyway, if any coastal Democrats have plans to meet up in a penthouse to ride big snakes and eat teenagers, I recommend rescheduling so you can keep a low profile until after the event. And those are the headlines. One last thing before we go, we have eight weekends left between now and the election to vote and get out the vote. So if you haven't already, it's a great time to sign up for our program, Adopt a State. Take on those volunteer shifts and phone banks and make sure you don't wake up on November 4th wishing you had done more.

Head over to VoteSaveAmerica.com slash adopt to pick out a battleground state and get involved. From there, our team will send you what you can do between now and Election Day. That's VoteSaveAmericica.com slash adopt. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, help us understand Mike Pence's hard hair, and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just moon mining contracts like me, What A Day is also a nightly newsletter.

Check it out and subscribe at crooked.com slash subscribe. I'm Akilah Hughes. I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco. And good luck to the sky. Please have some good luck. We need a little bit of luck this year. Just a little. Just not even luck. Just not terrible. Yeah, like just don't kill us. Don't make it bad. Pretty low bar. What a Day is a Crooked Media production. It's recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Sonia Tan is our assistant producer. Our head writer is John Milstein, and our senior producer is Katie Long.

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