What A Day - The Real Origins of the Student Debt Crisis
Episode Date: April 13, 2024Once upon a time, borrowing money for college was an affordable path towards upward mobility. Today, it’s a crisis. With Americans owing a whopping $1.7 trillion in student loans. So how did the stu...dent debt crisis get so out of control? From bungled government programs to Sputnik to the Great Recession, “How We Got Here” unpacks the history behind spiraling student debt…with interest! SOURCESOnly 25% of those with student loans went to graduate school—but they owe around 50% of all student debt | CNBCStudent loans are now easier to discharge in bankruptcy, attorneys say: It's 'life changing' | CNBCAverage Cost of College [2023]: Yearly Tuition + Expenses | Education Data InitiativeEverything you need to know about college costs - VoxStudent loan forgiveness: What to know about Biden’s $39 billion plan - VoxWhy Does College Cost So Much? - The New York TimesIntroducing Bennett Hypothesis 2.0 | Center for College Affordability and ProductivityStatement Before the House Committee on Education and Workforce On Lowering Costs and Increasing Value for Students, Institution | Texas Public Policy FoundationIs Rising Student Debt Harming the U.S. Economy? | CFRStudent loan forgiveness: How much debt has Biden canceled? | CNN PoliticsFederal Student Loan Borrowers Reveal Grim Expectations for Payment Resumption | Morning ConsultDrivers of the Rising Price of a College Education | MHECMSD Annual Report 2022 - Student Debt and Young AmericaState Funding for Higher Education Still Lagging | NEAEducation; College Officials Defend Sharply Rising Tuition - The New York TimesStudent loan forgiveness: How much debt has Biden canceled? | CNN PoliticsThe Political Case For Student Debt Cancellation | Data for ProgressPublic Law 94-482 94th Congress An Act
Transcript
Discussion (0)
Erin, let me read you an old New York Times article from 1988 that is going to make you lose your mind.
Is it about how George H.W. Bush got 426 electoral votes in the election that year?
Because I hate that fact. What was wrong with us? We had just had Reagan.
No, it's a different article. The headline is, quote,
College officials defend sharply rising tuition.
Sounds familiar.
It quotes college presidents from all sorts of universities, big and small, elite and community colleges,
apologetically explaining why tuition is going up by 5 or even 10%.
So you're sure this isn't from last year?
It even has the deputy undersecretary of education accusing colleges of, quote,
pigging out by charging what he considered exorbitantly
high tuitions. This is like a national outrage. I see what you're doing here. You're going to tell
me that the cost of college in 1988, this big tuition jump that had everyone up in arms,
was still some tiny fraction of what we pay today. Oh, it's going to make you so mad.
Okay, fine. Get it over with. $6,725 per year, which in today's dollars would be about $17,000 a year, including room and board.
If people were angry at the 1988 equivalent of $17,000, could you imagine how mad they would have been if they'd known what their kids were going to pay?
Yeah, the average tuition now is more than double. It's
over $36,000 per year. And if you look at just private colleges, it's even higher at about $55,000
a year. For comparison, in 1988, a Rolls Royce cost $39,000. Oh my God. If that keeps up by the
time my daughter goes to college, it's going to be cheaper to just fire Bentley and wish her the best.
I'm Erin Ryan.
And I'm Max Fischer.
This is How We Got Here, a series where Erin and I explore a big question behind the week's headlines and then tell a story that answers that question.
We're talking about one big consequence of those out-of-control tuition costs.
There's now more than $1.7 trillion worth of student loan debt on the books.
President Biden took another big swing this week at erasing a bunch of that debt.
By freeing millions of Americans from this crushing debt of student debt,
it means they can finally get on with their lives instead of their lives being put on hold.
His new plan would be on top of the $144 billion in student debt that he's already canceled.
Not counting his plan that got blocked by the Supreme Court last year
that would have forgiven another $430 billion in student debt.
Thank you, Supreme Court.
The student debt crisis has kind of become this monster
with its tentacles wrapped around the U.S. economy.
It's making it harder for people to buy homes
or to afford things like health care, child care.
And more and more people are defaulting on student loans too, which entails all sorts of hardships and costs that can take
years to climb out from. Health care, child care, luxuries. It was not always like this. Even in
years like 1988 when that jump in tuition happened, yes, people had to take out loans to pay for
college, but they were typically much easier to pay back. Defaults were rarer.
Student debt was, for most of the history of student debt, just not as big of a deal as it is today. So our question this week, how did student loans go from something that most people
agreed were a big net positive for borrowers and for the country into a crisis burdening the whole
U.S. economy? The story we want to tell you is about the confluence of a
bunch of different forces that transformed student loans from a source of upward mobility for millions
of Americans into something that's now dragging them down instead. So the earliest student loans
started in 1958. I was actually surprised how recent that was. Before then, college was just
simply out of reach for the overwhelming majority of Americans.
Something like 6 or 7% of Americans even had college degrees.
College, of course, was extremely cheap by today's standards.
A few thousand dollars per year in 2024 dollars.
Still, how was an 18-year-old supposed to come up with that?
So that year, 1958, Congress passed the National Defense Education Act, which authorized the first student loans.
And this being 1958, the goal was, you guessed it, to defeat the commies.
The idea wasn't to meaningfully broaden access to higher education.
It was to train scientists to design more rockets and stuff like that to win the Cold War.
Studying this scene, you may ask, just how important is it that these young people become teachers, scientists, administrators?
Here's one answer. Sputnik is a product of higher education, of instructors who teach much of the physics and mathematics in high school that we teach in college.
How important? Our survival may depend on degrees and graduates we are not now equipped to produce our survival
our survival might depend you know what did produce sputnik though communism interestingly
enough which had a lot of public education which had a lot of public education so these loans did
not work like student loans today. Congress gave money directly
to the colleges and the schools then lent that money out to students to help them cover tuition.
But Americans clamored to sign up. It turns out a lot of people really wanted to go to college,
but the program didn't provide nearly enough loans to meet demand.
Congress faced all this demand to make student loans more widely available.
And that is precisely what President Lyndon Johnson did in 1965
with the Higher Education Act, which, for the first time,
allowed any qualified student to take out a loan to pay for college.
Here's Johnson at his alma mater, Texas State University,
where he held the signing ceremony for that bill.
For the individual, education is the path to achievement and fulfillment.
And for the nation, it is a path to society that is not only free but civilized.
And for the world, it is the path to peace.
For it is education that places reason over force.
Go Bobcats.
So this is kind of the start of the student loan era.
From here on out, rather than taking out
a loan from whatever college you were attending, you took the loan out from a bank. The federal
government set the terms of the loan, and it guaranteed that loan in case you defaulted.
Student loans have changed in a few ways since then, but the basic idea is still the same.
And that idea behind student loans was, we should say, a pretty good one.
The thinking was that student loans would benefit the country overall by creating a lot of highly skilled professionals who would drive economic growth.
And most of all, they would benefit individual students because people who go to college typically live longer, they're less likely to be unemployed, and they tend to make substantially more money so that those student loans should more than pay for themselves. And this is still true today. Like today, according to one estimate, someone with a
bachelor's degree makes on average $27,000 more per year than someone with just a high school
diploma. That means a lifetime boost worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, depending on
things like when you retire and, of course, what you studied. Right. And the average debt burden
today for a bachelor's degree is $29,000, which is a lot, but it seems like that should at least in theory still be a good deal.
Like, everybody wins, right?
For a long time, this did work pretty well.
Rates of college enrollment went up and up, the economy boomed, in part thanks to a growing base of highly educated professionals, and the students who'd taken out those loans were generally better off for it.
It wasn't until a few decades into this, in the 2000s, that the system started to break.
But a few things happened between 1965 and the 2000s that you need to know about to understand how things went wrong.
The first thing is the federal government set the program up with no limits on how many loans got issued or to who.
Usually to get a loan, like for a house or credit card,
you have to prove that you're able to pay the loan back, but not with student loans. The banks
are just taking it on faith that these borrowers will eventually get a good enough job to repay.
I'm getting flashbacks to the housing bubble and all those mortgages that got pushed onto people
who couldn't afford them, which of course both helped drive up the cost of housing
and also set up millions of homeowners for default.
Right. So that doesn't happen with student loans at first.
The scheme of handing out five-figure loans to any 18-year-old with an acceptance letter,
it actually works for a while.
Congress helped to pump a bunch more hot air into this bubble in 1972
when it created a government-backed corporation called Sallie Mae,
which is so
innocent sounding. It doesn't sound, it's baked goods. She's going to make me a pie.
No, she's going to break your thumbs. Yeah. So what you are hearing in our voices is that if
you were born anywhere between 1950 and 1990, and you took out a student loan, odds are that your
bills came from Sallie Mae. When Congress had first created student loans,
it had given itself the job of managing things like the interest rate. But by 1972, it wanted
to get out of that business. I don't blame them. Sallie Mae was formed to buy up student loans
from banks and administer those loans. But this makes banks even less interested in whether the
loans it's handing out will get repaid because that's not their problem anymore. It's Sallie Mae's problem.
Sallie Mae is also a for-profit company,
so its incentive is to broaden the number of loans as much as possible
and to make each loan for as much money as possible.
In the 1980s, something else pushed up the cost of college.
The U.S. shifted from a manufacturing economy to a services economy.
That meant fewer and fewer jobs making things like steel or cars,
but more and more jobs in banking, software development, or healthcare.
You know, soft boy work.
Or podcasting.
Yes.
You know what the trouble is, Brucie?
We used to make shit in this country, build shit.
Now we just put our hand in the next guy's pocket.
I've seen so many clips from The Wire that now I don't even feel like I need to watch it.
So that is fictional dock worker Frank Zabatka from, as you mentioned, TV show The Wire.
And he is right that this economic shift is bad for blue collar workers like him without
college degrees. But it's very, very good for people who do have a college degree and can work in these new fields.
People catch on to the idea that college is no longer optional.
This poll kind of blew my mind. In 1978, according to Gallup, only 35% of Americans said a college education was very important. By 1985, that number had shot up to 65%.
And you don't need an economics degree to know that when demand goes up for something,
the price goes up too.
Remember that news report from the start of the show about tuition jumping 5% in a single year?
That starts to become typical.
Still, the whole economic arrangement behind student loans held. Yeah,
the loans were getting more expensive, but the average American college graduate was also making more money.
Here's a local news segment from 1987
interviewing students at the University of New Hampshire
about rising tuition.
And speaking of numbers, have you checked out
what it costs to go to college this year?
I think it's expensive, but I think it pays off in the long run.
You know, you're just investing in your future.
There's a lot of financial aid available, so that helps out a lot.
I don't think it's that bad.
No, I think it's high.
I disagree with what you say because I have to work constantly.
These people are speaking in the voices of those unencumbered with ever having to pay.
They've never had to pay bills before.
They're like talking about adult stuff.
To be 18.
You sweet summer children. Wait until Sally Mae's bills start arriving in the mail.
Enter Bill Clinton, who tried to take the student loan business away from private banks,
including Sally Mae, and just put it in the hands of the federal government.
He figured that if he could remove the profit incentive from the student loan business,
then the price of those loans might not go up by so much.
But the banks lobbied to resist this,
and Congress watered down Clinton's reforms.
The federal government did start issuing student loans directly,
but the banks were still issuing them too.
This is the mixed public-private student loan system you had to navigate
if you're around me and Max's ages.
How old are we again?
We're 25.
Yeah, that's right.
I can't wait for the new Billie Eilish album.
Will you pass the peach mango F-bar?
I don't even know what that second thing is.
This was when managing student loans started to become a real nightmare
because the amount you had to borrow was continuing to rise
faster than the wages you could expect to earn.
And thanks to this mixed public-private
system, you had to navigate a morass of multiple loans. This is also bad because it gives lenders
very little incentive to care about default risk. They just want to issue as many student loans as
possible so it can sell them off. All of which fuels the rise of a big culprit in this story,
for-profit colleges.
Max, imagine that you're a shady businessman.
I'm picturing it.
Okay, good.
You see this firehose of money, billions and billions of dollars of student loans being churned out, and you want a piece.
Ah, so I start a for-profit college.
Are you ready to train for a career?
Call Everest and get on the road to a rewarding career and a better life.
1-800-875-9981.
Everest. For life. You know, the real Mount Everest is covered in human poop.
And people die on it all the time.
So I guess it is a good name for a for-profit university.
You've seen ads for these in the subway, Corinthian colleges,
ITT Technical Institute, maybe even Trump University.
They typically offer part-time classes, maybe taken online,
geared toward people who feel stuck in low-wage hourly work and who want to break into a professional career.
These exist basically to generate and capture student loans.
But the quality of education they offer is often not very good, so dropout rates are high.
And because they're targeting people who are lower income, default rates are much higher too.
Again, the hallmarks of a bubble market. But we should pause here to say that even with this rise in the number of people who want to
go to college and the rise of banks lending them money to do it, there is still kind of a mystery
as to why the cost of college is rising so much faster than the rest of the economy.
Right. Like car ownership went way up in the 20th century. And a lot of banks gave out loans
to finance this. But the cost of cars didn't spike like the cost ofth century. And a lot of banks gave out loans to finance this. But the
cost of cars didn't spike like the cost of college did. And in fact, the cost of a car has come down
as automakers competed with each other on price. So clearly there's something strange going on
here with the cost of college. Very strange. And there are a couple of different theories for this.
Lay them on me. The first says that the cost of running a
college like really actually has gone up by a lot, partly because of the cost of highly skilled
labor has risen. The thinking is that starting in the 80s, the demand for college professors
and researchers went up faster than the supply. But let's not discount administrative bloat.
In California, for example, the average college administrator makes north of $195K. The average tenured professor gets paid only $72,000 per year. And a 2023 report from
the Progressive Policy Institute found that there are now three times as many administrators and
staffers as there are teaching faculty at top schools. Like, Max, do you know anyone who
selected a university based on its
robust administrative team? I don't. Although in fairness, most students go to colleges that are
non-selective. So they're just kind of going with what's available to them. And those staffers you
mentioned are often the lowest paid workers at a college. So, you know, it's not like they're
money grabbing for your tuition bucks. Kind of like a restaurant whose costs go up as servers
become more expensive to hire,
colleges are heavily dependent on labor.
And as the cost of living has gone up in the country,
even the cheapest labor has gotten more expensive.
And there's another big theory that says that colleges have basically limitless spending needs
because there are always more gaps to fill in human knowledge.
So there is a constant upward pressure on the price for
college in a way that just isn't true of other industries. In other words, if colleges can charge
more, they always will, because there's always another grant proposal to fund a lab studying
cancer cells in mice or something. There's a quote about this from the economist Charles
Klotfelter. He said, quote, the operational prefer the way that former Harvard president Derek Bach put this.
Universities share one characteristic with compulsive gamblers and exiled royalty.
There's never enough money to satisfy their desires.
Part of the evidence that this might actually be a real thing
is something called the Bennett hypothesis,
named for a former education secretary.
Basically, when the government has brought about
tuition assistance programs meant to subsidize the price of college.
In other words, when Uncle Sam tries to pick up
part of the tuition tab through grants. What happens is that the price of college simply goes up by that amount.
So in this theory, if the government issues me a voucher for $5 off a large Domino's pizza,
Domino's is just going to raise their prices $5. It would be like if your voucher suddenly
resulted in all pizzas becoming not just $5 more expensive to buy, but $5 more expensive to make.
So it's a weird phenomenon. But the exception of this rule is need-based aid, which does not have
this effect. But basically all other tuition assistance programs do, which is just more
evidence that the cost of running a college can go up and up in a way that is not true of other
goods or services. We should say that the student loan industry is helpful here because
it is always ready to offload those rising costs onto a new generation of 18-year-olds.
All of which leads us up to the moment when, well, the bubble doesn't burst exactly,
but the whole student loan system that had been growing and growing
finally teeters over into disaster.
The 2008 financial crisis.
There are fears the sell-off will continue on Wall Street.
Now it's official. We are in a recession.
A few things happened that quickly took student loans from something that were
growing but manageable into something that was unmanageable.
The most obvious is that millions of Americans suddenly became out of work or
simply had to cut back. But they are still stuck with these big student loan payments. You took out that student loan on an assumption that
your wages would go up thanks to your degree. But after 2008, a lot of people's wages did not go up
by as much as they'd expected if they could get work at all. And student debt is not like credit
cards where you can cut back on personal expenses to get those monthly bills down. It's not like a
house or apartment where you can move out or sell it for someplace smaller.
You're stuck.
And there was another reason that student loans became more burdensome than other forms of debt after the financial crisis.
It's really, really hard to discharge a student loan thanks to amendments to the Higher Education Act passed in 1976. Lawmakers worried that doctors and lawyers were graduating and might immediately
declare bankruptcy to avoid paying back those federal student loans. This lawmaking student
loans extra sticky was strengthened in 1990 and again in 1998. And in 2005, for-profit companies
convinced Congress to treat private student loans the same way. And this creates a perfect storm
heading into the financial
crisis. All these people declaring bankruptcy can get out from under auto loans, home loans,
bad credit card debt, but they can't escape their student loans. And not paying down these student
loans, even if it was just for a few years, meant that the interest kept compounding on itself.
Even people who dutifully paid their student loans for years could see their balances balloon
to more than the amount that they'd initially borrowed.
So in 2009, the total amount of money that Americans owed on student loans exceeded what
they owed on card loans for the first time. Two years later, that student debt burden
outgrew even total consumer credit debt, which includes credit cards. And even as prices
for pretty much everything were falling across the economy, the price of college was like the one thing that kept increasing.
Which was very weird.
It would be like if after the housing bubble burst, home prices, instead of dropping, just kept going up.
There were two big reasons for that.
First was that the worse the economy got, the more the demand for a college education actually went up.
If you couldn't get a job, you might as well go back to school, right? And for those who don't remember the Great Recession, or maybe don't want to remember,
unemployment stayed high for a really long time.
For every year that stretched on, more people went to school.
Between just 2005 and 2014, the amount of overall student debt nearly tripled from $363 billion to $1.2 trillion.
And a lot of those students are funneling into for-profit colleges
or community colleges, which again, tend to have higher dropout rates. A lot of people end up with
the worst of all worlds where they have a high debt burden from their student loan, but without
the full earnings boost you get from finishing your degree. Like this guy who was profiled on
PBS NewsHour. I just feel like I devoted years of my life
and thousands of dollars
into developing specialized skills that I'm not using.
There's also a big, big rise in student debt
at the other end of the spectrum,
among people who go to grad school.
Yeah, millions of Americans
who already have a bachelor's degree,
but as of 2008 suddenly can't find work,
go further into
debt by getting a graduate degree too. Between 2000 and 2018, the number of people age 25 and up
who earn a graduate degree doubles. A big proportion of these new grad students are
women and people of color because research has shown that holding a graduate degree
is one way to overcome the gender or race pay gap. And this is all great
news for private lenders because the amount of debt you can take on to get a bachelor's degree
is capped by the law, but it's not capped for graduate degrees. Today, the average debt for
law school is $145,000. And for med school, it's $201,000. So for any one individual borrower, this might be a risk worth taking.
Professional degree holders do, on average, make a lot more than bachelor degree holders.
But because you have so many people taking out these loans all at once,
the aggregate effect is to add something like a trillion dollars in debt to the economy.
And of course, as all these new lawyers and doctors and MBAs and masters of fine
arts enter the workforce in the 2010s, those job markets get oversaturated. A lot of people find
their right back where they started. Unable to find work, only now instead of owing $30,000,
they owe $130,000. And every month that they can't pay, the balance on the interest goes up.
So Max, you said there were two big reasons that the financial crisis pushed up college prices even further.
One was the boost in enrollment as people waited out the job market.
And what was the other?
State legislatures faced their own budget crunches, so a lot of them slashed funding for public schools.
States had once provided on average nearly 80% of the money needed to fund public schools.
That started to drop in the 90s and 2000s, usually in response to budget crises.
After 2008, it plummeted to about 64%.
And the overwhelming majority of college students in this country, remember, go to public colleges and universities.
At the same time, states are also capping tuition at these colleges because they don't want voters to blame them for rising prices.
And the result was that public colleges gave out way less financial assistance.
They needed full tuition from everyone, which shifted more and more of the financial burden from wealthier students to poorer ones.
Which meant that a lot of people who were more financially precarious were forced to take out bigger student loans.
By the mid-2010s, the student debt burden became unbearable for many Americans. This
loan that was supposed to be their ticket to prosperity and security instead became a pit
that many Americans have been trying to claw out of ever since. By 2014, a staggering 34%
of student loan debt was in deferment, forbearance, or default. One in three.
And a lot of these loans are from the federal government, and you really don't want to be in debt to Uncle Sam. The government has the
power to garnish wages, withhold tax refunds, even seize your Social Security checks. As someone who
has been there, let me just say, it sucks. That doesn't sound fun. Defaulting on a student loan
is really, really expensive. Not only does the interest keep accruing, but you can get hit with collection costs worth up to 18.5% of what you already owe.
And remember, like cold sores or democratic fundraising emails, you can't get rid of them.
By the time the pandemic hit, all of this debt had become not just life-ruining for
individual families, but a burden on the overall economy.
When the federal government paused student loan payments during the pandemic, not just life-ruining for individual families, but a burden on the overall economy.
When the federal government paused student loan payments during the pandemic,
the home ownership rate among Americans aged 18 to 35 shot up.
Student loan payments resumed last year, but already half of households making under $50,000 a year are not able to pay those loans back, according to one study. And even higher-income
people are struggling. Most households making over $100,000 a year expect to miss at least one student loan payment. All of this depresses the
economy because so many people are shoveling their money into paying down loan interest
rather than doing something more economy stimulating with it. There's even a pretty
compelling theory that student loan debt is driving down the birth rate. Erin is talking
about the birth rate. I'm obsessed. the birth rate again. I'm obsessed.
Anyway, there have been a few serious attempts to fix all this.
Like Bill Clinton's plan to take away the student loan business from banks and consolidate it with the federal government, which the Obama administration actually did pull off
in 2010.
In a 21st century economy, a higher education is the single best investment that you can make in yourselves in
your future. And we've got to make sure that investment pays off. For people already burdened
by a lot of student debt, this doesn't solve the problem. But it did remove that profit-seeking
incentive from the equation going forward. Still, all that pre-existing debt kept growing.
And when the pandemic hit in 2020, it became a crisis again, with lots of
families struggling to find work but still burdened by student debt. Trump paused student loan payments,
which Biden extended into 2023. But Biden came into office with a mandate from Democratic voters
to find a more permanent solution. A lot of that debt is now held by the federal government,
thanks to those changes under Clinton and Obama. The challenge is proving that Biden has the legal authority to cancel it.
He's done this partly by expanding loan forgiveness programs that already exist.
One forgives student loans for people who've worked a certain number of years in public service.
Another forgives loans taken out to go to any college that defrauded students.
This is a big one with for-profit schools.
Those together have wiped out $144 billion in student debt, or about 9% of the total.
It's a lot, but not enough to fix the problem.
His bigger plan was to cancel up to $20,000 in debt for any borrower making less than $125,000 per year as an individual,
or $250,000 per year as a household.
This would have canceled $430 billion in outstanding student debt, another quarter of the total. I can't believe that's
only a quarter of the total. I know, I know. And the Supreme Court canceled even that,
which has left Biden looking for other ways to remove the debt. His newest plan would potentially
help up to 30 million out of the remaining 43 million people holding student debt. The plan
is designed to avoid another Supreme Court challenge, which has made it pretty complicated. So it's not totally clear how much this will add
up to. Biden has made another big change. Remember those rules that made it really hard to discharge
student loans if you got into financial trouble? Biden rolled a lot of those back. And this is
huge. People who need to declare bankruptcy can now get rid of student loans much more easily
than they could in the past. This doesn't fix the student debt problem, but it does at least help people under
the most extreme financial duress to escape that cycle of endlessly compounding student loan
interest. So, Erin, I think where I'm kind of left at the end of all of this is that I still
think student loans are a good idea today for the same reason that they were a good idea in 1965.
Like they still enable many more people to get an education that will, for most people, bring benefits that vastly outweigh the costs.
But those first student loans were designed for a very different world.
And we've learned a lot in the 60 years since.
And we have made some changes too, but a $1.7 trillion debt pile is enough of its problem in its own right
that wherever it came from, we are all better off if it has shrunk way, way down.
Yeah. What really gets me about all this is that public education should be free,
first of all, for everybody. I know.
Sure.
I know. Paint me red and call me a communist. But what really gets me about this is that this puts so much pressure on 17 and 18 year olds who are already under a lot of pressure to like
choose a major, choose where they're going to college, make all these life altering decisions.
When you add a life crushing amount of debt to those decisions, it really raises the stakes in
a way that I don't think teenagers are equipped to handle, nor should they be. So to close this out, let's listen to one of the world's most famous
former college administrators touting the benefits of his short-lived for-profit college.
We're going to have professors and adjunct professors that are absolutely terrific,
terrific people, terrific brains, successful.
We are going to have the best of the best.
And honestly, if you don't learn from them,
if you don't learn from me,
if you don't learn from the people
that we're going to be putting forward,
and these are all people that are handpicked by me,
then you're just not gonna make it
in terms of the world of success.
I think the biggest step towards success is going to be sign up at Trump University. Emma Illick-Frank is our associate producer. Evan Sutton mixes and edits the show. Jordan Cantor sound engineers the show.
Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Charlotte Landis, and Vasilis Fotopoulos.
Production support from Adrian Hill, Leo Duran, Erica Morrison, Raven Yamamoto, and Natalie Bettendorf.
And a special thank you to What A Day's talented hosts,
Trayvon Anderson, Priyanka Arabindi, Josie Duffy Rice, and Juanita Tolliver for welcoming us to the family. 다음 시간에 만나요.