What Bitcoin Did - BITCOIN BRAIN MELT w/ Michael Dunworth

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

Michael Dunworth is an Australian entrepreneur and was one of the co-founders of Wyre, a Bitcoin payments and infrastructure provider established in 2013. In this episode, we discuss nation-states strategically acquiring Bitcoin, why the integration of Bitcoin mining into national energy strategies could become a key geopolitical advantage, and how Bitcoin adoption could revitalise struggling companies like GameStop. We also get into the risks of quantum computing for Bitcoin encryption, the significance of unsolved mathematical problems for humanity, and the transformative potential of solving these equations. We also explore Bitcoin as an antidote to consumerism, the future possibility of encoding ourselves into light for space travel, and whether the real existential risk to Bitcoin could be societal apathy in a world of free energy. FOLLOW: Danny Knowles: https://x.com/_DannyKnowles or https://primal.net/danny Michael Dunworth: https://x.com/MichaelDunwort1 THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: IREN: https://www.iren.com/ RIVER: https://river.com/wbd CASA: https://casa.io/ LEDGER: https://www.ledger.com/ ANCHORWATCH: https://www.anchorwatch.com/

Imagine having a party, right? You're having a party, you bought one pizza, and you know that nation states are coming to the party. Then there's the NASDAQ or 200 companies, 500 companies. Call it 4,000 publicly traded companies, let's say a 10% adoption rate. Oh no, we're going to be tight and say 10% of that. Great, 40 companies. 40 to 400 companies, the amount of need that they have is insane. It's, there's nowhere, there's a tidal way of trying to fit through a pencil hole. What Bitcoin did is brought to you by our lead sponsor, a massive legend, Iron. the largest NASDAQ listed Bitcoin miner using 100% renewable energy.

Iron are not just power in the Bitcoin network. They also provide cutting edge computing resources for AI, all backed by renewable energy. So whether you're interested in mining Bitcoin or harnessing AI compute power, Iron is setting the standard. Visit iron.com to learn more, which is iraeren.com. I don't know. Like it might be a bit... I don't know. Is it too aggressive?

No. What is Sailor too aggressive? Yeah. Like, is it going too fast? Like, is it, or is it just an absolute level of conviction? But that's the way you win, isn't it, by going fast? I think so, but has he, like, can you lose from here? And that's what I don't think you can. I think he might be past losing.

I think if he was going to lose, it was going to be last cycle. Well, I, exactly. So, but I mean, actually, in terms of just position management, like, can they lose in the capacity that they've got 500,000 coins? Yeah. Like, well, you lose to America. Okay. Like, big deal.

But he might not even. lose to them. No, he might lose to, who knows? Like, I mean, he might not lose to anyone. That's what I mean, because he's just, he's a steam train, like, just freight train, just like eating him up. Because I was talking to your brother about this a minute ago. So I was in Austin recently. Yeah. And I was talking to someone, I don't want to say who just in case he doesn't want me to say who it was. Sure. But he was telling me about the Cynthia Lois bill, right? So the plan is to buy a million Bitcoin. And he told me that when this plan was first, like, put into place, the idea, was that this will start the conversation.

We'll start at the extreme. It'll get pulled back and we might end up buying 300,000 Bitcoin by the time the bill actually passed. And he was like, with everything that's happened in DC over the last however many week, he's like, fuck, this thing actually is going to pass as it is. And he's like, I'm pretty sure this thing's actually going to happen. And so, but the thing is, though, if the US are mandated to buy a million Bitcoin, I mean, they have to do it regardless of price, right?

Yep. But that is the only way I see the US getting. past Sater at this point. Because otherwise, I don't see, because they're not going to print money to buy Bitcoin. They definitely don't want to. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's been a thing. Like, it's got to come from nowhere sort of thing. Like, they're happy to do it and allocate, but it's got to be, you really got a nickel and dime to find these pockets of not, that are not going to be basically affecting taxpayers. And they've got a lot of shit to deal with right now. They've got a top of the list. Like, it seems pretty high up the list, higher up the list than I thought it was going to be.

way higher and treated way more seriously, I think. But, you know, like, they've got a lot of people around them in the crypto space and obviously Bitcoin space and stuff like that. And those people have money. Like, they're, you know, at the end of the day, they're not trying to become a Bitcoin straight away. They're still their professional life is they're a politician and they've got to secure their future as a politician.

So, like, you know, you've got like the national, like, what is it? The NRA, right? The big guys, they've got heaps of funding and stuff. and they keep that relationship and they preserve that relationship because it's value aligned. Now it's going to be like, you know, like, XRP is the new NRA almost. That's right. But I mean, like, it's like, is he an idiot? Well, look, yeah, I don't think he's trying to figure out sound money.

He's trying to figure out how to make sure he secures the future for, you know, his party or whatever. And I think there's obviously, one becomes the other. Like, we've all had our journeys into this space. No one started perfectly understanding. At least I didn't. I didn't. I'm like, you know, I'm still getting it. Like, you know what I mean?

I feel like you learn something new every day from someone that's focused on it from a tiny, different perspective. And then they've really sharpened it. Like, they've gone mile, inch wide, mile deep on it on one specific thing. But yeah, I mean, their learning curve will evolve. Like, and you've just seen like Eric Trump join the Board of Advisors, I think, for Metaplanet. That was a weird one. Well, I think it's just getting, it might be something like, Like, let's slice it a couple of ways, right?

You know, for personal benefit, sure. Like, who doesn't act in self-interest in personal benefit? Like, in their life, like, that's what it's about. So, like, I don't have any problems with that. I think it might be as a almost like a feeler out to say, here's the mechanics and what's happening behind the scenes of a Bitcoin standard company. Yeah. And we want to make sure that the US is the biggest, highest concentration of Bitcoin standard companies

because that's going to be the highest concentration of performance to be made. And so, you know, if markets aren't, let's say, pumping from artificial motivations, but they're actually migrating to a new standard of your unit of account that's more successful, then that's a really powerful, organic, like, foundation. Like, it's a lot sturdier, right? Do you think we're there yet, though? No, but if I was starting a hedge fund today, like I was talking to you about before, like the best performing hedge fund that starts today will probably be the one that

picks all the pre-Bitcoin standard companies. And it picks them, if you pick them, if you pick the, in order of adoption correctly, and you weight your bet sizes by that, the sooner you go onto a Bitcoin standard, the sooner the bigger returns you'll get. The sheen and shine will wear off becoming a Bitcoin company as it gets normalized. As it becomes common sense, it's not going to be, oh, they're a Bitcoin standard coming. Cool, let's buy in heaps more than we should, and we're over-inflating their price or whatever it is. So I think having someone that's very close to the president right there, at the...

the heartbeat, you know, surrounded by these people that are industry veterans, right, like that have been around for a long time and being as close to the subject matter as possible, which is the case study of a company that's basically gone from zero to hero, a Cinderella moment. How did you become Cinderella and how legit was this, you know, process? Did you get even the liposuction or you've been training it? Like, what's going on? And they've been training it. It's like training your brain to adopt a better cerebral asset that's not going to be one

that's busting your physical work. So that's interesting. I mean, that feels fair. That's definitely fair. But one thing that I thought would happen after Sayla came out in 2020 or 21, whatever it was, was that we'd see a whole wave of this. Like, I thought it was obvious. Yeah.

And it never happened. Yeah. But now, I just spoke to your brother about this, but it's news, so we'll talk about it again. Yeah. GameStop. Yep. I think it's really big. Huge.

I think for a couple of reasons. One, like, Metaplanet, I always kind of consider, like, don't get me wrong, what they've done is incredible. Of course. Different frame of reference, though. Tiny company who have done amazingly well. It'll be a different case state. But GameStop are like culturally very significant.

Yes. They have a whole host of people who like believe in this stock like like yeah. Like the stock on the market. Oh yeah. And then like the demographics of those people is like disenfranchise youth that hate Wall Street, hate like the elites. Yep.

And want to see that thing burn down. Yeah. In comes Bitcoin. And it's like we've got the tool for that. Yes. Come on. Literally. And the guy that the chairman.

champion the soldier in the fight, he's about to bring that, it's like Zelda, like when you get like a level up or a new shield, it's mad. That's like GameStop's got this like Bitcoin shield, which is just basically going to insulate them from so much market turbulence, so much risk in like their actual business operational risk, right? Like, are they going to be relevant forever? No, but if they become a massive sack of Bitcoins that produce great content or still have their stuff going, wow, they're going to be superheroes. I mean, they're barely relevant now. Yeah, but they're almost relevant because of, like, I mean, they had the huge thing with Roaring Kitty and stuff. It was epic.

And, like, I think it was a really cool thing. Like, I just thought it was a really interesting thing. Like, all the Wall Street bet shit and stuff. It was hilarious. Like, it was mad. And then, like, I think this is like a next thing. And that whole audience that is supportive of them, they're very, they get it. Like, they understand the problem and the solution.

And they can see this, like, getting married up. So I think it will become another really interesting. study. Now you're going to see, it gives companies a second chance at life. And it basically says, hey, if your business has gone into, let's say, it's been, what's the term where obsolete? Like superseded obsolete. Yeah, insubes. You know, like video easy or like, you know, blockbuster video or something. Yeah. If Blockbuster video was around and they had a massive balance sheet of Bitcoin's because they believed in it, blockbuster's still around and they're doing whatever, but they're still around. Yeah. Like, and now I think you're going to see a lot of companies that the juice won't be worth the

squeeze. So, oh, we're a company. We do 600 different products and we do them all like sort of okay, mad. And it's like, okay, cool, we're not going to be fuck doing that anymore because we don't want to have 600 phone calls, but we don't want to be in fucking concrete buildings all day. Okay, well, why don't we pick a couple of products and just really go awesome on them? Bitcoin's handling the rest. Everything else is just too busy. And so I think there's going to be a massive concentration in expertise and a massive reduction in consumption. So we're not going to have, like, we buy new chairs every week. No, it's going to be like our grandparents. No, this is our grandparents' chair. It's been there for 30 years. It was handcrafting.

I was very good once. Exactly. Like this whole like churn and burn of just all your shit. Yeah. People can't be fucked. And like our dopamine's getting worn down too, which is making these, these exercises less appealing to us as well. So we're going to want less so we could have to worry about less and fuck around with less. And I think that's super interesting. So basically back to GameStop, their whole audience is brilliant in. my opinion, like, clued in, let's say, clued in, right? It doesn't matter if they're 10 or 25 or 45 or 100. Like, they're all learning from the same source, which is the same, the forums, the chat, this experience, like this feeling in, like, the heat basically of the market. And I think they're

going to set a standard. I think you've got Rumble, all these guys, but it's really infecting different corners of the internet, right? So, like, Rumble will have Rumble wallet, which will have a lot of people that could start getting access to it that probably wouldn't have bothered to get access to it. I think it would create the channels, the awareness. And if the company performs really well on a Bitcoin standard, it's night and day. And most of this stuff, the reason why it's really good for companies to do this shit is because it's a free trade.

Like, as in, you don't know. You don't need the 18th factory in Rwanda or whatever. Like, it's like, fuck that. He's like, no, no, no. Just call your account. Yeah, swap currency. Thanks. Done.

I'm sorry. Is that pound for pound, not the green. greatest thing you could do. So we're talking about companies not adopting it yet, right? Like, so, oh, sailors done it. Okay, this is obvious. Great. Scarce asset. Everyone wants it. We can't break the technology. But sounds good. Let's go. But no one did. And I think there's a couple of reasons why. It's like, one is the way that they have to deal with it all is there's still frictions and, you know, issues, right? So a lot of these companies have very tight relationships with their banks. They probably have a lot of products with their banks. And not like the banks like,

don't touch Bitcoin. It's like, it becomes a risk for a company that doesn't know how to custody them correctly. And that becomes an issue. And because there's no formal like, oh, well, the money guy is Goldman Sachs and J.B. Morgan or whatever. They're the guy. When they can custody coins, there's going to be a whole lot more adoption, a massive, massive amount because it's a no-brainer now and it's all delegated liability, let's say. But it's not their problem and it's not their fuck up if they fuck it, like if something goes wrong. Because at the end of the day now, like if everyone's becoming a Bitcoin company, everyone's got to become a security company. Because if this is the golden goose, like, the way that I see the future. I mean, you know that better than anyway.

I mean, literally, yeah, and that's the only thing that matters. And that's the one thing you learn is that that that is the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter. Oh, we got the this, we got the this much money in the bank, that much money, whatever, doesn't matter. If you're not secure, you're a ghost. In history's eyes, let's say. So it's like, I think, like, when I think about like what's the future look like in 30 years or something. I think military installations around all the mining operations, not for a like capturing the mining to protect them. Like as in they're going to be doing that like let's say iron energy or whatever. They're going to be capturing this energy and they're going to be protected because this is going to be the most valuable

thing possible. And I think that's going to be a whole thing almost. I think it's pretty wild that we've seen those bit axes bink a couple of blocks. Have you got one? I do have one. I love it. I think it's really cool. It's not been mine yet. It's not been mine. No, it hasn't mined anything yet. But, I mean, that's a whole interesting conversation. It's so cool.

Well, if the statistics, like, what are the statistics of that happening? And, you know, is it, you know, one in a light year or one in a zillion squillion. It's better than the lottery. It's, I mean, it's pretty damn cool. Like, no matter what, I think it's just such a rad, like, educational tool. Like, for me personally, I'd never done anything with mining other than just, like, looked it and, like, looked at it and, like, thought it was cool. Yeah.

But, like, you know, one of the Bitcoin is here, it was actually a cheat code. I bought it a cheat code when you guys were here for, yeah, with my lightning wall and did the whole thing. It was mad. Love it. Yeah, it's sick. So anyway. So one question I have on these like zombie companies adopting Bitcoin. Yeah.

Is it a good thing to basically prop up these companies that can't do what they're doing anymore? So GameSop as an example, like this is kind of a failing business model. Yeah. Everything's moving online. Yeah. If they come in, they buy Bitcoin, they're going to, their share price is going to go through the roof, I assume. Yeah. it's going to mean they can survive as a company, but they're not really offering any products.

No. And they don't really have to offer any products. They can just be a Bitcoin company. And that's the thing now because when we invest in companies, sure, there's a bunch of people that buy into whatever the product is and the business is, but at the end of the day, it's a wealth preservation strategy, right? Yeah. And so we're all looking for little pockets in the ground where we can put it that's not going to get fucked. And it's like, oh, you're on a Bitcoin.

Oh, thank God. Okay. Yeah. Like, okay, it's safe there. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not going to melt in your office. Yeah. Like, there's a lot of hot offices where it's going to melt straight.

straight away. And that, like, that is just going to be a land grab for, like, a liquidity capture for these companies purely just out of the principle. And if there's, I think it's, I think it's really interesting to think about, like, you know, how this will divert, I suppose just exposure to other, let's say, like, where, how does this get, how does this affect things like the ETFs? And I think it's actually almost like if every company you liked was on a Bitcoin standard, firstly, you'd know what the future is going to look like, regard, like as long as they're not spending less, spending more than they earn, you're going to basically know where they're going to be in the future because you add up their stack and be like,

oh, oh, fuck, I'm mad. And so you buy into them. But like, I think there's going to be a ton of those companies. And I'm wondering how that dilutes things like, you know, or how that breaks up the concentration of something like BlackRock ETFs and stuff like that, which I don't think the concentration is so much of a problem because I see it as an educational tool. If you buy the BlackRock ETF, let's say 10 years ago, like obviously it wasn't there, but let's say between now and 10 years ago, I probably would have seen the value, the true value, because so much performance has slapped my portfolio on the face, like along that ride, that I've had to adjust what the me 10 years ago thought about it or how I wanted to, you know, take advantage of this new coin.

Yeah. So, I don't know. I think, so that's quite an interesting conversation is how that will decentralize the public market concentration risk of Bitcoin. This episode is brought to you by Anchor Watch. The thing that keeps me up at night is the idea of a critical error with my Bitcoin called storage. This is where Anchor Watch comes in. With Anchor Watch, you're protected by their time-locked multi-sig vault

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there is like you said, this curve is going to flatten out eventually. And like when companies start adding Bitcoin to the balance sheet, it won't do anything to share price. No one will give a Fuck. How many companies do you think can do this? Like, there's a huge early mover advantage of it. Okay, so I'll tell you the perfect type of companies that should do. Sorry, I just interrupted you. I'm trying to get less interrupt you by the way.

No, interrupt all you want. Okay, so the people that can take the biggest advantage of this is a company that has, the people that will sniff this out first. I have a very small margin, a very, very small penis. No, I'm just like, we have a very small margin, I know, everyone's late. But like, okay, so a very small margin, micro margin companies, right? So like, let's hear my crop. No, dude, born in Greece.

Where? Oh, my croppinous. How good. No, okay, so let's say payment companies. You're trying to sell a dollar for a dollar in one cent. So when you buy a hundred bucks worth of the USDC or whatever with a credit card or Bitcoin, right, you buy $60,000 with a Bitcoin. The company's selling you that Bitcoin is trying to sell you $60,000 with a Bitcoin for basically

at a rate of a dollar, like the closest to parity, but they've got to make a margin somewhere. So they've got no margin. And they've got a huge amount of risk because every time someone reverses a payment, bang, that's like, because your margin's so small, that person who just bought, let's say, they bought 60,000 and reversed it, you were only going to make 500 or 300 bucks on that 60,000 purchase, and you've just lost 60,000. So the trade's shit. Like, it's really like a very risky, high risk underwriting of, you know, you're not going

to reverse your payment with me. So the margins are tiny. So payment companies, they're the gold standard. The dude with 90% margins isn't looking for a way to preserve his wealth. He's rolling around in money and he's not thinking. The guy who's looking for a way to preserve his wealth has a chance to beat the guy that's rolling around in money because, like, you know, diamonds are made under pressure. We built the atom bomb in World War II because we were desperate as a species, like to figure

it out. Like in the same way, if you're desperate to figure it out, you'll find Bitcoin and you'll have to take that chance. It's like, it's literally like basically taking a handshake with something you're not sure was going to do well and just putting faith in the belief of all the other people that you can see and their conviction. And that's like quite literally the sales story, right? Where they were like, shit, we're out of options. And they were like, let's go. And they've set the tone for that. But I do think that there's that, yeah, like a lot of these zombie companies, micro margin companies,

they're going to be the ones to do it. Every payment company should be doing it. If you're a payment company and this has a 10 year or a four year cagger of 20% or whatever, you can't, Your margins are so small that you must be doing this because this has a chance. If this, oh, wow, it went up 25% year over year for four years. Dude, that's like 300 quarters of revenue for you. Like, you can't not be doing this. You have no chance not being doing, not to be doing this. And it's interesting to see a lot of the payment companies that we got to work with

earlier on in, like in the journey of wire at the time, you know, a lot of them have gone like, we were either working with them or starting with them. Like, they've gone public now. And it's so cool to see because at the time, like, some of them had like, you know, small companies that were like. Which kind of companies are these? Well, like, we got to work with Fold a lot. We got to work with Exodus a lot and Exodus just went public.

Like, unbelievable journeys. Like, you've been just like, it's like being able to see, oh, I used to, I used to coach LeBron James in high school or something like that. And it's not like a coach, but you just got to witness that part of their journey. And it's like, you know, these companies. these companies are holding Bitcoins. And because their intent has been so pure throughout their whole journey, they've been holding it, you know, for, you know, well beyond or accumulating, let's say.

So that now- I mean, bold are holding a lot of Bitcoin. It's mental. Let's go, boys. Yeah, shoutouts to fold. But, like, they can beat a lot of companies to the punch because they've just made a bet on this is how we want to store our wealth. And people that don't even know that company very well, like, don't even know these

companies very well, again, they're going to be attractive because, like, oh, they're own Bitcoin Center, here's what we can predict from their balance sheet for the next four years. Do we like that even? And I think now it becomes a conversation. People go, oh, there's zombie companies. What's it to you? Like, you don't own the company. Like, who cares what they're doing? They're staying alive. And that's the goal. Like, I think that goal is longevity, especially if it's your baby. Like, if you build a company and you want to see it thrive and do its thing, whatever that is. But you keep the name going. And I think these little, it's really good to have lots of Bitcoin standard companies to invest in as an option, as options around the world, because that will

become a de-risker for concentration for big things like BlackRock, because people will go, well, I'm still getting Bitcoin exposure by going this direction. I don't need to go straight in there. And then that might be a cool way of basically, because like essentially when you're buying something, you're basically putting some Bitcoins on their pile and saying like it's a vote of confidence. Like, here you go. Like the most precious thing on earth to me, yeah, there you go. I'm not, no, I'm not buying more Bitcoin. Like, I'm giving it to you or whatever. And so, like, I think that handshake, like we were talking about before with governments, right? Like, that handshake is like eternal.

And it's very powerful when your oxygen that your economy breathes is the same as mine. So we would talk about this before the show. You should explain your kind of take on the nation state thing. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I wasn't recording. Phew, I was naked. No, I'm just joking. No, dude.

Okay, so nation state. Okay, so you're going to have nation states. They're going to do it the cheapest way possible. Keep the ones we've got. That's step zero. We haven't had to outlay any. Then you're going to see countries that are going to start outlaying them making purchases. Don't know how that's going to go, like from wherever, whatever, whether they print money or

they find some tax thing that's, you know, 0.5% Bitcoin tax instead of GST. And that goes to accumulating. But what I actually think will probably happen is that, you know, there will be such an advantage of having a really strong understanding of your country's energy capacity that the tidesastases in the world, like the biggest tidesars in the world are miners. Like, they're nickel and diming for anything. Oh, you've got like half a watt more of me. Like, you know, they're so like, it's the most competitive game on Earth, basically.

So it's like, okay, these miners, I want them at my country. I want them finding every single nook and cranny of like unoptimized energy. I'm in a race against these other 230 countries or how many there are on this planet to find this thing that's really valuable. So I want them to come in, find all the energy you can and report back. Great. Every time you use it, we're paying you 1% over spot price. You tell us the market. We don't care.

Why would we do that? well, we're going to pay you that because, one, you're in the most competitive market in the world. So, one percent margin to you is like a bajillion percent to anyone else. Two, you're going to optimize my citizens. I'm the prime minister. I'm not the prime minister, but, you know, like, if you're a prime minister, you're going to optimize all the energy efficiencies for our country's future. That's pretty valuable.

We need it. And three, you're going to secure our future financially. The RBA, we've blown out our budget a couple of times and we need to make sure that we're on track to pay that back. If Bitcoin sticks at its current caga, we only need to accumulate. this much to be out of debt in four terms or whatever. So now it becomes a pipeline of coins, because if every country need, they need their own pipelines. Well, are they going to go buy on Coinbase? No, dude, it doesn't exist forever because that is going to have a limited supply.

And so as the market gets more educated, more coins will come off exchanges and they'll be hiding in nodes around the world. And so you're going to need these supply chains to have more of a deterministic, like, operation. So these countries can't be like, oh yeah, have you logged into like Coinbase and bought them today, that's not really how it's going to go. It's going to be like, no, we need like hardware drills in the ground and we need to protect them because they're the guys that are going to get us out of debt.

And so I think that is the thing. So you're going to see miners come in, optimized countries. It's going to mandate any company that's basically wasting, like dumping energy, bang, mandate that must be mined. Speak to one of our 10 mining partners. They'll come. And so you think they'll buy every Bitcoin mined at 1% overspot price? Yes. And why would they do that? Well, back in 2013 to 2012 to 2015, I think it was,

BTC China was one of the largest miners in their industry. And that was sort of, that were one of the biggest exchanges and they were sort of what, you know, the Binance is today. And there was an earlier version. They were fantastic operators. But one of the products they had was Bitcoin mining. And one of the other products they had was buying fresh coins. Now, if you're a nation state, you're going to pay a premium 1%, 1% over spot price to buy the scarcest thing on earth while optimizing the future of your country's energy grid, and you're getting fresh coins straight from the soul, like the soul of Bitcoin with no previous tracking on it. Now, I don't, like, I'm not thinking about that stuff as like, we're not retail,

but at that scale, they would be for sure. Now, to say, oh, well, there's no market for that. Well, BTC China did it, and the premium that they charged was 20%. Holy shit. 20% overspot, I think was what it was. Please forgive me if I'm wrong, by the way. It's like, this is just a fever dream. You completely imagine that. It's like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah.

But no, that was it. The BTC minor, BTC China, and they used to start 20% overspot because to some people, if you're a big entity, you don't want, you don't want to know. Like, I'm surprised that that's not more of a thing. Yeah. And that's where I thought actually, I had this like imagine, like, I was imagining all the Bitax miners in the world. So everyone at their home with like, you know, it's like a bitax just churning through

energy just trying to find that coin. I imagine all the coins won on bidaxes to make it a more fruitful indebtes. they would be all put because they're raw, like straight from the source, right? Some people would pay 20% overspot for that. So you pull all the bidax coins together. Someone buys a chunk for 20,000 bucks when it's $10,000 worth, but all the bidax miners just got twice the amount or something like that. I don't know.

There's two big concerns I have with that. Yeah. One is like the idea of sort of white and black market coins. Yeah, yeah. I really don't like the idea of that. No. And then secondly, is this kind of like just de facto Bitcoin, their nationalization? of Bitcoin mining?

I don't think so. I think it's almost like a defense mechanism, like as a security thing, almost like it's not like a hayweb, it's more like we're recruiting all the miners to come and help us. But you're in this, let me get this right.

So you're saying you think they'll print money to buy Bitcoin at 1% overspot and they'll buy all the Bitcoin from any miner in their country. I think they guarantee contracts for the next umpteen years, basically. Saying every coin you can mine on the network, you have a buyer of first resort,

the proof that this has happened before was Iran, the central bank of Iran. They said, no, we're not having any Bitcoin exchanges. But anyone that wants to mine here, there's heaps of energy, we are the buyer of first resort, and we will buy them all from you every day of the week. And they had like three and a half percent of the hash rate at one point. Wow.

Do you know how many coins they have? I don't know, actually. Not sure. Smart trade, though. Like, brilliant. That's basically DCAing at nation state level, three and a half percent every day. I mean, it's like what we've done.

kind of. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And these guys are taking a chance. And that's another thing, right? As these coins, like if this is, if there is hysteria, right, nation states need to fit into this pie. Imagine having a party, right? You're having a party, you bought one pizza.

And you know that nation states are coming to the party. Then there's the NASDA or 200 companies, 500 companies. Call it 4,000 publicly traded companies, let's say a 10% adoption rate. Oh, no, we're going to be tight and say 10% of that. Great, 40 companies. 40 to 400 companies, the amount of need that they have. is insane. It's, there's no way, there's a tidal way of trying to fit through a pencil hole, like a penhole or whatever, like a pin, it's insane. But that means that there's going to be

not many coins around. So if I'm a small country and I've got debt and stuff like that, what I would do is be securing coins today, buying them early, sort of like trying to get ahead of everyone while they've got policies that they've got to wait for six months, 12 months. This is our chance, just like the companies. The adoption strategy is the same every level. And that's one thing I can really promise, whether it's retail level, trying to get rich instead of faster than, you know, your peers or whatever, or it's corporate, trying to be more of a, you know, a wealth-storing company than everyone else, or it's nation-state. We've secured our energy. We've secured our financial future. But it all operates the same way. Like, have all got to

kind of, there's a pain point that gets met. Silvergate Bank, like, obviously there's, you know, pour one out for Silvergate at the moment, but, like, they took a chance on Bitcoin really early on to build and commit to infrastructure where to give bank accounts because you couldn't get bank accounts. So like they took a chance and they were very lucky for that. Michael Saylor took a chance. He beat everyone else to the punch. He's going to have a lot more shine on it. And so small countries are going to buy Bitcoin early.

I think, I know this sounds ridiculous, but I actually think they'll time lock these coins to, let's say, two or three terms in the future to say, well, we will revisit like our purchase power or whatever, but this is a purchase today to pay. off our debt of X, you know, in three terms time, so 12, 16 years. Now, that's not happening now, obviously, but there's going to become a time where I think something, things like that happen. You're going to see all these different acquisition strategies and these different levers people are trying to pull because if I've got a million dollars, or let's say I've got a billion dollars to sort of, I got a trillion dollars and everyone else has got 10 trillion. I got, I got a trillion

and everyone's got 10 trillion. Like, I need to be really smart with how I spend my capital so it goes further. Just like if I'm a company competing, I've got to deploy my capital more, like, more intelligently than if I've got a competitor that's got 10x the funding or something like that. And so I think you're going to say that same level of strategic kind of deployment, different strategies, weird ones, cool ones, ones that bomb, ones that don't. But yeah, I think it's going to be pretty integrated with mining because it's just too strong. Like, it's too strong and it just adds too much value. Like, I've got a weird, like, position on this because Because I think at least some of what you're talking about is kind of inevitable.

Like some of this will happen. Bitcoin's money for enemies. You can't stop anyone from using it. But at the same time, this isn't why I got into Bitcoin. No. And I don't know where I kind of fall on that. Right. I don't know either, but I just think that's the...

This isn't sort of saying how I want Bitcoin to roll out, but it's just saying, like, looking at all the pieces in the puzzle, that sort of feels like the trajectory. You know, everyone to, you know, like everyone will become, I think everyone's priorities will realign, like, or everyone that moves into a Bitcoin standard. It's almost like caterpillar to butterfly. Like, they'll go in as a caterpillar and they'll go through this sort of turbulence of like, what the fuck is this thing? Oh my God, I'm up.

Oh my God, I'm down. Oh, my God. I hate my life. Oh, my God, I love Bitcoin. And then they come out as a butterfly. And that is going to produce a whole lot of new stuff. But I think, yeah, I don't even think we know what the world looks like yet. And so I'm just not too hung up on it.

Just so long as it doesn't stop producing blocks. That's the only thing. That's one thing I'm pretty confident in. Well, what's the quantum conversation? Yeah, let's do that. Well, so I recently did a show on the quantum stuff. It's obviously become like a way bigger topic in Bitcoin. Whether it's a real threat or not, I'm still kind of on the fence.

I think at some point we're going to get quantum computing. I think at some point it may be strong enough to break Bitcoin's encryption. There's obviously like there's now Bip 360, which is proposing quantum resistant addresses. So there's like a pathway. Yeah. But when I had this conversation, I thought of you because when we were here in October, you did a show with Pete.

Yeah. And you were talking about these math problems that you've been working on. Like looking at, like just, I'm looking at them as like a, like the sky is falling. Yeah. You know, like kind of like, is anyone fixing this? Like, is that a problem? Because it feels like this concentration risk there. Yeah.

And in that, though, you said you think people will break encryption. I think so. It wasn't even about constituting. You think people will. I think we'll take a new perspective on numbers. And like right now we think of numbers as these very arbitrary sort of whatever's, right? But if you think about what numbers are, like if I got teleported anywhere else in the universe, the odds are that numbers is something that they do have. And the numbers might look different, but what numbers is is essentially counting or more specifically the partition of identities.

And so would an alien species have that? Yes. Would they have strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force? No, they wouldn't know what I'm talking about. So the idea is like, when you are looking at numbers, that's the universal language. So if there's a world of many, if we're in a universe of many universes, the other cats in the universe, the biggest, the strongest, the smallest, the fastest, whatever, they're all looking at the same canvas.

Just because they're not sitting next to you doesn't mean you can't, like, feel that, like, connection. And it's because they're transcendental. So they can't break. They're immutable. I can't break the number seven. I can't change the color blue. And that's like Bitcoin's kind of entering that echelon of strength.

But now it's got like this, you know, this turbulence coming up about like quantum computing and what can that do for factoring semi-primes and all that sort of stuff. And it'll, it'll, I don't, I just don't think it's elegant enough. And like the universe is not a brute force system. It's a very elegant, organized, what's the term like everyone working together sort of thing. Like, everything's connected, and I think everything has an elegant solution, and it doesn't look like quantum. Quantum looks like I've tied five, sorry, the way that we approach factoring is sort of like

tying 5,000 horses to the front of a cart to try and break the world record. And I'm, what my belief is, is that there's many people around the world that haven't started building yet, but they're going to be building jet engines. And those are, like quantum computing right now. that says, ah, it can factor this and do that in whatever amount of time. Sure, it might be able to, but that's still under the assumption that you're using the best methods to factor. And so, like, that's the time scale that you think.

But this hasn't been a problem for 8 billion people. Once it becomes a problem for 8 billion people or a focus, once we put our attention to it, all these minds will come out of the woodworks that are like, oh, yeah, no, no, do it that way. Just like you get, like, we've got these unsolved problems in maths because we sort of, train and condition ourselves through these education systems to think the same way. And you don't really solve these problems or find these breakthroughs, like call them breakthroughs, you know, where it just goes exponentially way better, you know, with the same line of thinking. And so I think

as the problem becomes more and more highlighted, I think you're going to see way more shots on goal. And way more shots on goal is probably going to start leaking out solutions to what could accumulate to becoming a very elegant explanation for why we can't find two prime numbers. So not everyone will list those shows. So let's go through these. How many unsolved all math problems? Seven millennium prize problems. And one's been solved.

And one's been solved. And the do you get a million bucks for every solution. And these were unsolvable. Well, like they're called Millennium Prize because no one's had a, like they haven't been solved for millennium basically. Yeah. Yeah. And so.

Okay. And so someone solved one. Someone solved one, Russian dude. And you said, no, I don't want you a million bucks. Mad. Bola, how good is that? Yeah. But like, the thing is, is that what we need to realize is that everything is about dependencies, right?

So everything comes down to dependencies. If I'm building a building in Tokyo, it doesn't matter if I'm the best architect in the world. If I haven't spoken to the geologist or it factored that in, because I'm building on the ground, when the ground changes, my building changes. So when we think about what information sits on top of it, sits on top of cryptography, and cryptography sits on top of prime numbers. And so in these mass problems, these Millennium Prize problems, the common theme is about elliptic curves and prime numbers and things like that. And basically, prime numbers would function as like the master

key for everything. But what's the problem with the prime numbers that we know? Like, is this finding more? Basically, that we can't find them. Because there's no pattern. There's no pattern. Because, see, the way that we can identify it, like if you think of numbers like the internet, right? Like, so imagine the internet. Internet you don't think of a straight line. You think of like a web of things connected and shit, right? Think of numbers like that where the devisors of a number, so the numbers that can multiply together to make this web page, let's call it, the devisers are like backlinks. How many web, how many pages go back to your page? Okay. And that makes you easier to find, right? If I've got a thousand links, a thousand websites

linking to my website, odds are will be easier to find than if I had one in an ocean of opportunities, right. And so that's what prime numbers are. They're the ones with one backlink, but there's 10 to the 500 universes, like if every, you know, speck of nothing was a universe and that, blah, blah, 10 to the 500 times the size of our universe. And you're trying to basically shoot, like imagine an archer on one side of the year with an arrow made of light. And he's trying to shoot it so that it hits one particle here, like one quanta particle, the smallest possible target. And it connects on the other side of the universe with the other smallest possible target. This is us trying to find prime numbers.

Yes. Okay. But so when we spoke, I don't know, a year ago, two years ago, you thought you were going to solve them? I didn't think I was going to solve them, but I thought they were definitely going to be solved. You were working on solving them. Yes.

So I'm trying to figure out what's, I'm trying to figure out how strong are they. Because my whole life depends on these things, like some dude over there, like whoever, not knowing how to solve this mass puzzle. It's almost like enigma. Like at the time in World War II, there was this incredible mass puzzle that no one could solve. And it's sort of like now, well, that's the same thing. It's like, are we positive no one can solve them? Or am I just like being a bit paranoid or like, you know, why is no one talking about this?

And like this was sort of two or three years ago. Now this year just came out on Apple TV, a show called Prime Target. And basically the whole plot line is a mathematician kid at a university in Britain who is studying prime numbers and he's about to crack the prime number theorem essentially. which now the CIA or whatever is, or the army or military is trying to use him or help him or whatever. But basically he cracks open this door to Pandora's box where it's like, he's like, oh, mad, prime numbers.

And they're like, blah, blah, that you know, fuck, blah, you know, sort of like,

it's kind of like, you know, like a baby walking across the ground and it's like, he's, there's a knife over there. Like, make sure he's not going to grab it. Is he,

does he know not to grab it? Like, I've got a baby. They grab the knife. Exactly. And so I think it's like, there's eight billion of us and we're all dependent on this stuff. Like the reason why we can't access each other's stuff is because of prime numbers. And it's like, well, I really hope that that's the case because, and so like for me,

it's sort of like, I know that I learned so much from my team. Like I got so lucky working at wire, have these brilliant engineers, brilliant architect, brilliant CTO. And they just pounded security into my head. Like, they were just like, no, not, not doesn't matter. No, no, no, your feature shit doesn't matter. Security security. And as you start thinking about it, it's like, oh, well, cool.

Okay, cool. Security. Yeah, cryptography, done. Perfect. No one can break that. How many years it takes to break? 100 billion? Why?

And then you go, why? And you're like, oh, and that becomes like, so, you know, when you're running a exchange, you've got to understand every threat or every potential vulnerability and how that can do. You plan for the worst, hope for the best. Yeah. So it's like, well, what is the dooms, dooms, dooms day thing? And the dooms, doom, dooms day, I would say is basically someone factoring prime numbers, because that means no encryption, can't send an email, can't send this, can't send it,

and that's what this show is about, this prime target show. I didn't watch all the show, but like, if you want to just get the grok of actually what prime numbers in the relationship to, you know, our modern day, watch the trailer, and it gives you the, you know, one minute explanation. And so to break all of this down, yeah, is, do we need all of these problems to be solved to break everything? Well, I think they're all, they're like the final boss in a video game. Think of that. Mass is a video game and we are at the final boss and these are last six bosses. And behind every single one of them is, I think of them like Mega Man bosses in the game Mega Man where you get a superpower from the guy you kill. So it's like you unlock new knowledge when you solve one of these. So it's going to be like falling dominoes. And now that one's gone, it shows that there's like a chink in the armour. Like it. What did that one unlock?

I don't even know. In like real life. Was there anything that? I think it was the morphing of two spheres across some like manifold or something. So it was basically like when you, like, you know, you see water droplets, like pull apart and there's like that thing. It was basically the relationship of that and explaining it perfectly. Okay. I think something to, something in that world. But nothing like changed in our everyday life from that being solved.

Well, not that we know of, but you don't, there's a lot of people that are looking at different things like that are just as passionate about these certain things that might be staring at this problem being like, oh my God, imagine if that's solved. Like, you know, a lot of people are looking at the Riemann hypothesis. And that's like, what's that? That's like, basically this sum, it's basically adding up things to find prime numbers or a hypothesis that it should reveal prime numbers, basically. So this critical strip where all these zeros lie that basically gives a almost like a compass to prime numbers, or that's the belief. And we have the assumption, we haven't solved it yet.

We've literally been raw dogging maths for like 100 years. with the presumption that, yeah, yeah, no, no, no. It's a, yeah, like, it will point to prime numbers. And it basically will, like, it most likely will. So I want to understand, like, the, what this actually means. So, if we solve all these, obviously you're saying, like, encryption goes, which has a massive, like, it's a massive, like, unimaginable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But does it all, is, like, keys to the universe, anything where this exchange is? This is, this is where, like, as a species, it's not like, oh, fuck you, I don't like the color your T-shirt. It's like, oh, I can sharpen up. We're, like, the leaders of the universe now. We control the quanta, like, which is the field. So this, like, will change physics, space travel, everything. All of it.

All of it. So the idea of space travel, right? Like, oh, we want to travel really far exploration, right? But we haven't sort of thought, like, of going, like, up. Like, how would you travel, you know, transdimensionally or something like that? And, like, obviously, we know that if we're trying to go across the universe, it's probably not smart to send big stuff because big stuff can't go fast. It's really heavy and hard to get off the ground.

So I think space travel will end up something more like we can go faster if we're light, basically. So we'll figure out how to encode things into light such that we can send that light particle really fast, really far. But encoded in that light particle might be a whole lot more of, you know, stuff. So basically, what kind of stuff? Shrinking ourselves into light or compressing ourselves into electrons. What the fuck. Yeah. It's a smarter way to go because here's the thing.

You say it's a smart way to go. But we can't just say that. No, but it's in like, it's much, so if you approach the speed of light, the mass is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. So the idea is like, starting as a human is probably a dumb option because it's like, well, a cockroach is smaller than me. Why want to try and send him at superluminous? I mean, like, well, who's small and a cockroach? I don't know. This dude.

And then you keep going smaller and smaller and smaller. And eventually you get down to like, you know, a light, like literally just like light, basically or nothing. And that becomes like, well, how do we encode something into light? so that we can send it somewhere fast. That's what Bitcoin's almost like, by the way, because like these coins, right, for example, I timelock these coins into the future. They're 100 years away,

but there's a tremendous amount of energy encoded into those light photons, like the particles that have gone into the cable and whatever. And so that is encoded a huge moment just in that light particle arriving to that destination. Now, when we think about, remember the arrow, trying to shoot the arrow across the universe, we have a map of where we're going to be in the universe as an earth.

So when we time lock something on Bitcoin, you're actually sending it very far across the universe because the Earth's moving at 60,000 Ks an hour or whatever the fuck is doing. And every time you time lock something, if you time lock something for one day, the Earth has traveled a distance in that day. So what I think will start conceptualizing stuff

as we break through into more new physics will be time is more like a, a distance away. Because right now, tomorrow is that distance away, however far the Earth goes. And so it's like, oh, spooky action at large distances. That's quantum entanglement. Okay, well, what is a time lock for Bitcoin then? Like, if that's that, then that becomes a real big quantum entanglement because the Earth,

what I'm doing, if you time lock Bitcoin's here and the Earth's moved really far, like really, really far. I think it's like 100 billion trillion kilometers or something. and then something magical happens then or big or whatever. Like, they were hooked in from the start. They were destined. We were just looking at a different lens, right? And because you're like, you're not looking at why they're entangled.

You're like, yes, they're entangled, but like how? It's like, well, that connects to that. And you can sort of draw the cause and effect over a very large distance. And so, I don't know, I think Bitcoin is going to be that. It's going to be like transferring energy to the future and stuff. This episode is also brought to you by Ladia. If you're serious about protecting your Bitcoin, Ledger has the solution you need.

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Preston Pish, Alex Gladstein, Nat Brunel, James Lavish and so many more. We then have a football day where we'll hopefully see Rail Bedford win the league again. Last year was amazing, this year's going to be better but tickets will sell out for this. So if you want to come, head over to cheatcode.com. And grab a ticket. Do you follow any of the aliens here? Okay, sort of. Like, I've looked at the pyramid stuff.

Sorry, I was going to ask you about the pyramid stuff. But the alien stuff, I think, look, there's probably some new tech. But whatever it is, if it doesn't involve prime numbers and, like, basically geometry, it's all whatever. Like, it's all sort of. But you're assuming that's us making this thing. It's always, it's us. Of course.

Like, it's not aliens. what, from another planet. Or is it future humans? No. Well, that's what I said. That's what if we do have alien visitors, it's us from the future. Oh, they look little and gray. Cool, you used to look like a monkey.

Like, easy answer. Like next, you know. So I would say that yes, there would be us from the future. But I think, uh, I just don't feel like I'm seeing enough. Like, we're smart. Like, I think people are underestimating how clever we are. Like as in, we couldn't have done that. That's alien.

Just tell them it was alien. They're fucking idiots. And it's almost like, yeah, I'll sell some T-shirts to prop up the economy. Great. Like, maybe. I don't know. I don't try and devol-like dig into it too much. I like it just as like, I love that shit.

Like, aliens, pyramids, all that show. I'm like, man, like, what's possible? So it's exciting. But I think a lot of the stuff they're built is like incredible. I think they're better than we think, like, in a cool way. Have you ever spoken to Matthew Pines? No. You need to.

Okay. I think you would have an amazing conversation. Awesome. We should do a show together. just all on aliens. Yeah, yeah. And you can call it future humans. Yes.

But so, right, let's get back to these mass problems. Yeah. If they're all solved, it even seems silly to talk about encryption in that because there's bigger fish to fry at that point. It means you know how every single particle interacts with every single other particle, basically. Because you know the fundamental law of the universe. So no matter what the scenario, because this is the root layer of the universe, like prime, nothing small. nothing less more divisible, whatever. It's the root layer.

It's like the heartbeat of the universe and you go, oh, they behave like that. And the big guy, like, let's say black holes do that and the sun does that and we do this. And there's a consistent ratio that everyone is operating on. We're going to start thinking, oh, we're part of a big assist. Okay, yes, okay, makes sense. And most of our civilization will look a lot more like we used to in ancient times, which is sun and like this relationship. with what we'd call like the universe, let's say, the stars and stuff like that.

Do you mean by that, do you mean this is like the end of consumerism, we stopped caring about dumb shit? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. We're too smart, not too now. Like, I mean, let's say everyone, okay, now, why was it, why would this matter at all? Well, what's Bitcoin done to your level of consumerism? Like, dropped it drastic.

Exactly. It's the antidote. It's the vaccine. Whatever you want to call it. It's a vaccine to consumerism, basically. And everyone's Bitcoin wallet. looks a lot different, the behavior to, I mean, look, if you gave everyone a Bitcoin wallet and showed us their Bitcoin wallet versus their Westpac account or their JP Morgan account

or whatever, you would see night and day spending habit differences. 100%. So that's the trend, right? And the trend's our friend. So we know it's going to head that direction. The masses are moving that way. So what happens then? Companies become more of, less about buying 100 things from them that don't work forever. And there's a new iPhone next season. No, I bought an iPhone. I've got it. I've got a car. I've got it.

Desk, TV, whatever. And so consumerism goes really far down. And people become more in tune with purpose with, well, hold on, what can I do? What can I do with Bitcoin that's, what does Bitcoin unlock for me that allows me time to do something I'm more passionate about? And I think that's what happens is you lose this paranoia of your time decaying. Yeah. And you start breathing a little easier, feeling a bit more. relaxed, you know, like, and now it's like you can actually start clearly thinking about, well,

what's important to me? What do I like? What do I don't like? And all these kind of things. So I definitely think consumerism's biggest nemesis right now and capitalism for that reason. Like, you know, again, the same motivations. What happens when a company doesn't need to make products? What happens when an individual doesn't need to work? Do they thrive and find some really meaningful way to put their purpose? Yeah. Like, how mad is that? Dude, imagine how fucking cool earth would be if every person is the expert. You know, they've got like the Lynn Alden or the you at like podcasting, all that shit. They're like, they're like, I know everything about this.

If you come to me, I'll give you all the answers because I stay up. I mean, don't know with Lynn Alden. Yeah, yeah, no, no. Like if she's like, you know, an economics question or something or whatever. Sailor, rocket ship question or Elon Musk, whatever. They're the gurus, like the experts. That's the web page you go to to understand it or whatever. Imagine everyone was an it.

like everyone had their purpose fulfilled or they were pursuing it. You're like, holy shit, as a species, running on the same currency with marching to the same beat, like we don't think about that, but the earth has agreed on something 880,000 times or whatever, the block height. I don't know anything else that we've ever agreed on other than the time, and that's based on the sun. So it's like the sun is the heaviest natural object we've got. The Bitcoin blockchain is the heaviest artificial object we've made. And those two coordinate the times between the digital system and the physical system. We don't even agree on the time.

I live like a seven hour drive north of here. We have a different time. But you know what I mean? We have a transitive relationship with it. But yeah, it's pretty wild when you think about it. Like, I think this is a super exciting time where we're going to get to crack open all these interesting ideas. Like, and people are going to come, like, the creativity is going to be mental. And like, if you thought you needed a really big weapon in World War II or whatever, right,

they need to figure out how to build a really big weapon. The same thing happened when we realized we had to figure out how to compress information. So now we've got everything on a phone. Like, you know, it's tiny. But we're going to have the same thing happen for creativity. So creativity is going to be the most valuable currency, arguably in front of Bitcoin or just behind it. But that, or not creativity, may say originality.

Originality, having original idea is what's going to be like SEO ranking for LLMs. And LLMs are going to be a huge production assistant for. create, like people trying to think a shit that we haven't thought of yet. What two things should I mix together? And the LLM will be like this assistant. And sort of what I'm saying is that this will like rocket ship purpose into the conversation. As the moment people start getting a bit of time, bang, they're going to start working on something that really interests them.

And their bar for, because our dopamine is getting cooked as well. So our bar for entertainment or passion or purpose is really like, you know, my bar for you know, what makes you happy now is not like, you know, a hot chocolate in the morning because I'm not freezing to death. It's like, oh, did I get here on time or something like that? And so because our dopamine systems are so fried, the bar is so high, it's going to make it very singular, what will get me off the couch or whatever. And it's going to be this big, shiny purpose that I can finally see because all the fog's cleared, because I don't have 600 people breathing down my neck. And I get the bus at seven in the morning to go to there to see the boss that

fucking hates me and then his spreadsheets do at 10 and blah blah blah blah blah blah get home my kid hates me because I haven't seen him all day and da-da-da-great there's another day gone you didn't think about your purpose and it's not like oh fuck you think about it but it's like no people can't think about they can't of course and that's why people like uh do something do it's like bro everyone's under water like we're cooking ourselves from the in it's literally the boiling frog thing like we're cooking ourselves from the inside the way that i think about inflation is like it's like being in a sauna but the temperature gauge is outside,

like the rocks are outside for some reason, and the door's locked, and someone else is putting, I'm like, hey, getting really hot in here, dude, like,

hello, like, is anyone out there? Have you closed? Like, it's like, did anyone think of me? Like, you know,

but me being everyone, everybody, like, it's like, guys, look, if you want the boat or something, just fucking ask next time.

Don't print the money. Like, your cooking is, It's better off asking, someone will donate it to you. Just stop fucking printing, you idiot. So it's kind of like, I think that's pretty interesting. So in the quantum world, they're putting like different timeframes on this, right? So like five, 10, 15, 20 years, whatever it is.

Yeah. If they can actually achieve that, who knows. Yeah. What time frame would you put on to solve in these math problems? I think, I think like, these machines are getting smarter and stuff. So you think like LLM is going to solve this? I think with a person. So a person, one man in his tools, basically, asking the right questions back and forth.

Like if you think about what, let's say, Pythagoras was back in the day, or Tesla or oiler or whoever, they were their thoughts and the latency between knowing the answer. Hi, I have a thought. It might be this, whatever the equation, it might be that. Bing, right, check, bang. That latency is a slower conversay. And so that's their cadence to solving anything. But now, if you have a person that can validate every hypothesis really, really quickly, like an L&M, he goes, no, they can't work. Yes, that can work.

No, they can't work. Ooh, getting closer. Oh, not far. Like, that is like a turbocharged. Turbocharged throughput, which is turbocharged, trial and error, which is turbocharging, sharpening what will work. And because, like, you know, you hear about all these smart cats in the history and they've gone like, you know, I didn't figure out how to do something. I figured out every other way not to do something. Because it's all trial and error.

And what happens is if it's your passion or your purpose or something like that, the trial and error is worth it because you're learning. And you're like, oh, I didn't even know that. I mean, it's not relevant. That's cool. But you appreciate everything because you're so enthralled in it all. And so I think LLMs will be a really powerful, like, a, you know, focus sharpener quicker. Like, it'll help expedite that. Yeah.

But I mean. So give me a time frame. I would be very surprised if it is. longer than max 15 years, likely less than 10? Dude, there's a lot of different, like, if you think about Euler and all these cats that solved a lot of really powerful problems,

they were so brilliant, and we've been so fortunate to get so much of their work downloaded and digitized and then observed in, like, contrast with hundreds of other pieces of work or thousands of other bits of data. The answer's there. We're going to get it.

Like, as in, I just, smells too close. So we'll be encoding ourselves into light particles in 15 years. I think so. Here's an interesting thing, actually. So, you know, Bitcoin's, what are Bitcoin's biggest threats? Is quantum a big threat? You know what's actually a really big threat that no one talks about? Apathy? I totally. What happens when people don't care about money anymore? What happens? What's a world look like when people don't care about money? Well, in a world of free energy, right? And we're talking about this aliens and free energy and the plasma balls floating over New Jersey and the pyramids like echoing shit. All that stuff, the earth's rumbling. Like, do you know what I mean? In science, there's some rumblings

right now. And people can smell it. They don't know what's real, what's not, but they know something's up. Yeah. That is like, that is, you know, if we get, like, right now I can pull a radio out and tune into nothing, right? There's nothing here. I didn't tune in it. It was just always there. That same principle, but instead of pulling a song out, you pull energy out of the field. That's probably what will be a really big risk to Bitcoin is that science becoming very basically understanding energy in the field stronger to the point where money doesn't need to exist anymore and apathy killed it and Bitcoin was the tool to kill money because it falls on its own sword. The more people have money. That's still a success for me. Pardon? Of course, 100% because

it broke us out of the illusion, right? Like it ripped it off. But now it's like, oh, but what do you mean? You won't be rich then. It's like, no, no, no, you don't get it. We're past money. That was a thing. It's like knowledge. It's sort of like knowledge. Once upon a time, knowledge wasn't everywhere. Like, you know, even growing up, like, you know, your granddad had a recipe, but that was it. Like, you know, it's not like, oh, what's the best recipe for a lasagna? It's like people didn't know how to make a lasagna.

That was like a secret. Like, it's like almost like a, oh, fuck off. Get your own. You know, that was knowledge. Energy probably takes the same path. And then that is what is probably the biggest risk. So I don't think that can happen. So if this breaks encryption, you don't really care.

even if it breaks Bitcoin because money doesn't exist anymore. Well, I mean, I don't know if it does or it doesn't, but I mean, I'd find it super hard to think money would exist with free energy because the only reason you make money, or like as in you made as a species, right? You make money as a species as a proxy for energy because energy was scarce and not portable. And so now it's like, yeah, I plug my finger into the toaster and I get energy in my body, or whatever it is, right? But you know, I'm mad.

So we're encoding ourselves into light particles, but also putting our finger in the toast. I think so. I think it's doable. It's pretty wild. But then, yeah, so now you think about how competitive or how strong does Bitcoin mining become if energy is now free. It's like, well, do we need Bitcoin or if we do still need it? But does Bitcoin exist if we're breaking the thing.

So if Bitcoin still does need to exist because it probably still would need to exist as a heartbeat. How will it exist without encryption? Oh, sorry. no, oh, no. So this is the thing. Encryption sort of, encryption will, certain parts of encryption can be broken, but certain parts will be insulated from it. For instance, Bitcoin time locks, right? So if you time lock it, you've got to basically get the network's weight in your favor all the way up to that time lock. So you'd have to mine every block now. And it's like if these machines don't become better at solving these specific problems, then that's going to basically time locks become sort of the

strongest future-proof thing possible because, not literally, but actually, I think literally, sorry, because even if you've got the private key, you can't get it before me. Like, as it, no one can get it. And so that's like the principle of it is like, well, if everyone's got the private key, then everyone has an equal chance of getting it. And then it becomes like, you know, it's this, like very, uh, insulated from future risks. So it's like, I don't know how it will work, but some changes would have to be made. But the, hardest thing to break for a machine, I think, will be Bitcoin time locks. That'll be the last, the last thing that it tries to kill or whatever. So is this why you care so much about time locks?

Because I remember you saying that you have already time locked Bitcoin into like after the year 2140, you incentivized mining. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Explain what you did there. Oh, so basically I took some bitcoins and I, the Bitcoin reward cycle, right? 50, 25, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, that's really cool. And people would be like, yeah, but what happens when the mining reward runs out? such an idiot. Like, who's going to, it's like, okay, well, fuck. Like, it's really cheap. If we scale it down, right, it finishes at one Satoshi.

And then there's this four-year period of darkness, let's call it. It's like the dark ages in Bitcoin where the reward is zero, zero, zero, zero. And then it gets to block 7.14 million. And then that's where there is, it restarts. So it's like, instead of starting with 50 bitcoins, it's 1-100. So it's 50 million Satoshes instead of 5 billion. And this is what you've done. Yeah.

And so I've time. created a wallet, time locked it, put in 50 million Satoshis, gone forward 210,000 blocks, taken a wallet, time locked it, 25 million Satoshes. And I've done that to sort of make this blueprint almost of like, hey, if you've got coins or you want to chuck them into the future, like let's keep this Bitcoin party going by incentivizing the miners to stay around. And so what have you done with the private key for that? Published it. So everyone's got it. Because now everyone's got a lotto ticket to, and it's like, hold on, this is 50 million times. the block reward at the time. So imagine whatever that energy commitment is. So think of it in energy.

Think about how big the energy commitment could be around that time and then say it's 50 million times that size. So it's like every person will drop everything, not every person, but like it's a lotto that everyone should have the lot, the ticket to. And the idea was that, okay, well, if everyone's got it, the chance that it around, remember Earth's flying through the universe, right? So Earth, I need to get this thing 300 trillion kilometers from here. How do I do it? I can hope that it's on earth every kilometer along the journey. How do I do that? Well, let's give it some meat, like something meaningful, and let's give away the keys.

So everyone's got it, and that just increases the chance. Did you see Sela come out recently and say he's going to burn his keys? Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did. And I thought, because that's the premise, right? Every person, if you lose your coin, if I, like, lock these coins or go to the grave with them, like Jamison Lott, funniest thing ever, my Bitcoin exit strategy is death.

Like, the wisest thing I've ever seen in my life. I thought it was brilliant. Like, and that's why I tell my friends out, I'm like, dude, your extra strategy is dead. But that is, you, the whole network levels up. Yeah. They're more scarce. Thanks for making everything more scarce. Now, I think, in a way, I think you're actually going to see people that, like, and

you know, one of these things, I feel like Bitcoin's given me heaps, right? Like, insane amount. Just cerebral peace, all this shit. And I was like, well, what could be mad? Like, what can I do with something after it to be like, oh, thanks, dude, that was mad. Like, you know, I really enjoyed the experience of eating at your restaurant, but using your coin or whatever. And it's like, I thought that was a cool way to do it because it's sort of a bit

more, uh, positive sum. Like, you help everyone today by dying with your coins, but you have a chance, Bitcoin's a 4D canvas, past, present and future. So, you know, if everyone today knows that I'm dying with my coins, I'm helping everyone today, but how can you help people that aren't here and they can come in before they're here, like a minor, right? How do I, how can you help a minor come here? where you keep the rewards going. So the miner goes, there's 50 million. How many? I don't give a fuck.

I'm now a Bitcoin miner. Like everyone will be, it'd be like, hey, I'm going to hold hands with you. You're going to hold hands with me. If you win some, give me some. If you, like this mega mining pool because it'll be too stupid to try and go yourself. Yeah. Because the prize is too big.

Exactly. It's just the prize is too big that everyone can eat. And it's like, I was like trying to convert it to barrels of oil because my hunch is like, by that time, energy is more different. Let's take a narrative, right? You go 100 years ahead. The odds are they've got more computation. The odds are they've got better mass problem solutions or whatever.

The odds are they've basically got better technology. But the odds aren't as certain, like there is a world where they get mathematically and theoretically there, but they don't have the energy. Now, if you have this whole massive, like, it's like a big one-up, like a spare life, like shot on goal or whatever for humanity. It's like, fuck it, let's, we've got this one chance to do something with our big time machine or whatever to like unfuck ourselves. Yeah, let's use that energy we've got.

Because the energy is equivalent to like, I try to ask chat JVT, but it's like you can power a rocket to go around the universe like three squillion times or something. So if they've got a rocket that they can effectively drive through the universe, hey, it's loaded up, ready for you guys. Just build the fucking thing. And that's the weird thing is that you can make these commitments to almost,

um, yeah, where people can now pursue things because of something that's like already there. There's the incentives already there. And yeah, but there's other time locks as well. There's like, you know, through that other time locks that you've done. Yeah. So it's like there's other ones that like, it's like sort of important principles or messages. So there's like, I think there's seven scientists and their scientist keys are in that dark ages when the reward zero. Because it's like, oh, let's put that, make it that like a graffiti canvas. And when you get the keys,

if you add up all the coins, the coin, the amount of coins in there is the number of days they're being dead for at the time I locked them. And the. And the. block height that they're locked at is the year that they died. So it's like six, block six point nine million is the last rewardier or whatever of zero. It's like, okay, go in, uh, 2018 blocks and you'll find Stephen Hawking's lock keys. And so all these things are like little treasure maps for people in the future to be like, well, who the fuck is this Stephen Hawking dude? Because the odds are data's going to get very messy between now and then. And so if there's a private key that's just this anchor of energy, it's like, well, you can't misunderstand it. So it's like, it doesn't say much.

It just says, you know, Nicola Tesla, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hanging, Ramanuj and Dereeshley, whatever. And then there's other ones that are just like, they're shapes. So, you know, fractal encrypt is like a mad artist, right? And he's like done so much cool stuff. And I got to have a couple of conversations with him about the stuff. And it was like, it was pretty really cool feedback and understanding. It was just he made some amazing pieces. But like him, I put like if, you know, he's got a key and it's, you know, if you put all the

sats together, it's like this, the x-axis, it will say the bottom axis of the time and the Satoshi number, but it looks like F-E signed in the bottom. So when you add all the Satoshi's up in the wallets, if you plotted them, like almost like a connect the dots, it looks like a FE in the bottom right corner of the blockchain. And I thought that's quite cool. And then there's another one which is like a diamond, which is like a dependency flow. So the top one's like information. And then the next row below it is like, you know, it's an upside down pyramid. number, the top one's information, the next one's cryptography, the next one's prime numbers, and the bottom one's numbers.

And it's shaped sort of in these ways to sort of let people sort of understand what I was trying to say, whether it's like hieroglyphics to them or not. It sort of makes it worth looking at, for one. And then they could call me a fucking idiot then at the time. That's fine. I didn't care. It might be. But it's like, it's still like, I was like, well, these are important things.

And so you don't get to say much. But I mean, this is how serious I was like trying to connect it all together. I was like, there was all these sort of weird things, but it was literally to the point where I had, I did it, I did a, like, I rode around in a circle for two hours on my bike while I was dropping these transactions on the day, sending them because the electrical, my hunch, and I know I'm going to sound ridiculous. My hunch is that we've got all this data now. It's all locked. The future does have all that data, but it's probably unlocked to them, which means they've got all my Bluetooth data, all my headphone data, all my this stuff. And I was like, well, these comes from the future, part of my language. These dudes from the future, they can probably see that my phone is radiating this stuff.

So they're going to know that I'm riding around right now in a circle. And to show them that I know that they're watching, I'll keep writing in a circle and I'll do one hour, one way and one hour the other way. So that when they look at, well, who made these transactions? If they've got all the data for all the IP addresses and everything in the future, then they're going to be able to connect you back to me being like, you're a fucking bad man. Are you okay? You know what? It's just like, talk about like trying shit, right? And I was like, well, my brother calls it Trevi Fountain. He's like, dude, you've thrown it in Trevi Fountain. Like as in, you know, the Rome and you make a wish or whatever. But I was like, you know what? Even if it does nothing to me, I'm like, what a creative exercise. Like for me, I learned a lot about time locks. I got to explore a lot about security and stuff like that. So for me, it's, like, I still think it's mad. I love it. I think it's really cool. It's mentally stimulating. You're honestly one of my favorite people in the world to talk to. Dude, it's fucking crazy.

So presumably you think Sailor shouldn't burn his keys, he should tell me. No, I reckon he should. Here's the thing. To do, to recreate the whole block cycle, like the blockchain that we've got, the same rewards, but at one one hundredth of the scale, I've already mapped it all out. It's 210,000 bitcoins. Right now, only 2.1 of those have been done. That was me.

But there's like a massive spot for, I don't know. I never thought there'd be a big enough holder other than Satoshi. And so now it's like, okay, well, Satoshi. Toshi's got heaps, but we don't know who he is or how to get in touch with him. So it's like maybe Sailor, yeah, it's like now Sailor's got enough. It's like, that's the play. Dude, that's, and you want to be like, think about this. It's not like if Sailor's going to make a legacy or Donald Trump's going to make a legacy

and stuff like that, don't build a statue. Dude, if you treat this chain amazingly that every country is about to get rid of the biggest World War that been in, World War debt, let's say, not World War III, World War deep. And so basically everyone's been fighting this invisible enemy and just being like, duh, do, do, ther, well, the taxpayers like, ow, out, like getting punched in the face all the time. But it's like, now, if you're helping solve that, that's going to be pretty wild. Like, I mean, so it's like, yeah, sailor, dude, like, write your name in time. Because you can write the history now, because we have a history ledger. We never had that before.

There hasn't been a history ledger that we all agree on. Now it's there. And that's why it's weird, but it's like, that means that now, because there's a consistent unbreakable ledger, at least we say it's unbreakable, now, let's assume it. Like, don't, let's not Titanic jinx it, but let's just assume it's unbreakable because we don't, we can't at the moment. So that lasts really far into the future. The future gets a very clear look at today. That means the relationship between us and the future has gotten really close together.

Because we're only a few data points or a few lookup tables away for someone in the future to understand more about us. Just the same way we look at videos of kids from, you know, the 1900s when there was like the first TV ever. And it's like, look at everyone looking at it like they, you know, like foreign monkeys or something. It's like so weird. But that's probably happening now.

Just like, just like the radio is sitting in the room with us right now, if I tune in the special instrument, our brains are probably the same thing. And so if we're electrical beings, just like the radio, just like this, it's probably that A lot of our thoughts could be also us just in different futures, basically. So it's like all these thoughts are being connected. How would you connect something? Will you connect it through electricity and run electricity through something, right? If we're all in this big field of electricity, odds are I'm going to use electricity to communicate with your node.

So I don't know. I just think there's a whole can of worms where we might be sort of, yeah, we know that like the future's kind of here with it. Did you just say that your thoughts are the future you talking to yourself? I think that's a very good candidate of a possibility, like, or the expert mode, if we live in a multiverse, which is probably going to be the case, like we live in some multiverse, I always think of, like, your thoughts are the smartest version of you out of all multiverses. Mine on. No, no, no, no, as in like, as it's meant to be, like, it's the best you got.

I'm the same, don't know, there's a lemon party in here. But it's like, literally, I always thought, okay, it sort of delegates it to the expert at that, whoever that is in whatever universe they are, but you can connect. them. And it's like, well, what does faster than light travel look like, right? Oh, but you go really fast and it all turns blue and everything stretches. No, you'd be there. It'd be that. So, we don't even know that we're not doing that already. Like, we don't know, like, you know, we still can't really explain our thoughts. And our thoughts are actually interesting because what our bodies are is just signatures of energy. And that's everything, every experience.

When I do that, touching my fingers together, I'm not actually touching myself. That's literally, there's a suit around me of like one atom thick suit that's basically telling me what the field is projecting me. That's not crazy to think. We're like a, you know, Zelda in a video game. The pixels are being pushed onto us and they're being architected somewhere else. That's sort of what we've got. We've got an electron suit on and basically our ears, that's one, the tongue taste. We've basically got this one suit on where we're trying to compress all this information and particles into our suit. But our suit is finite. So, like, we're going to see the idea to be able to recreate what we see in front of us.

Like, just like we've reproduced sounds out of machines, we're going to reproduce experiences with such high fidelity that it feels like you're there because it's putting the same particles under my skin that would be there. And when you think about this, like, it's almost like we're pixels in the universe in a way. And the reason why I think this is going to happen is because we're just a field. Like, imagine I'm standing here and we divvied up this box of air into. to, you know, like one quanta units or whatever. It's just basically marking them with a specific, like, vibration frequency.

And so when you think about the size of LLMs, right, hundreds of trillions of, or hundreds of billions of tokens or whatever, they're almost like a box, almost like a neural network of particles in the same way. Now, they're very small because, you know, they're whatever, one millimeter by one millimeter, or however many tokens by how many tokens. But that technology of understanding neural nets and that relationship with them, mixed with understanding numbers better and how that number connects to that number, that will probably amplify the strength of neural nets and understanding more predictively

how they operate. And then I think, yeah, with that, then we can probably reconstruct our field around us with enough fidelity. So the field now says that I'm sitting in front of a Mac laptop and new and I can hear something and I can smell something. He goes, okay, cool, change what he's going to smell. How do you do that? We'll change every single particle that runs through his seat.

sinus and up to his brain or whatever. Because, like, if you think about our ears, there's like, imagine like a 3D view or whatever cross section, there's like a tunnel that goes in there, right? Like this far in. All we're trying to do is match the particles that it would be hearing, like match the same vibrations. And so when you sort of slice it up into just a few small particles and you're like, well, okay, so we've got to get 100 trillion particles for this.

In a, you know, in 100 years, could I imagine the compute power to be able to do 100 trillion of anything? Yes. Like, is that probable? Yes. And so it's like, we are all just almost like our own blockchains where, you know, the block height, the difficulty, the previous hash, you know, the version and the next hash or the, you know, whatever.

There's five of them stamped. That's a block. That's a moment. What did you hear? What did you smell? What did you see? Bang? Compress that?

That's a moment. And so when I say, what's your favorite moment ever? If you had a time, if I had this machine next to me, I'd say, what does it smell like? What did it look like? Hot or colder? Warmer, not warmer. It's like you're talking to an ellie. where you're sharpening the scene saying, no, no, no, it smelled more citrusy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, like that. No, no, no, he was wearing red shorts. And then you press play and your field will be manipulated, basically. I don't know, it sounds weird, but I think it's super doable. I mean, fuck VR, I want this. Well, that's what I mean. That's exactly what VR is. VR is just screens that big.

This is making the screen one quanticized, basically. And so when you think about what can we learn from that, it's like, well, think about how immersive experiences are going to be, and now you think about if the future does have that, but they've got a record of electricity, which is Bitcoin, they can use that to reconstruct the past with a lot more fidelity and actually recreate what happened in the past with, like, absolute fidelity, because, like, accuracy, whatever the term is, I don't know what fidelity means, but accuracy, I think, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we'll go with it. All right, cool, cool. You can say what you want to me. My mind has been blown too much to that. No, but you know what I mean? So when you put that

together, you're like, okay, they're probably going to be able to make scene reconstructions, which is sort of aligning the particles to make it sort of feel and look like we're there. Okay, they're probably going to have heaps of electricity. They're probably going to have heaps of computing power. And they've got heaps of data because Bitcoin's been this spine through history all the way through. And so they're, I reckon they're recreating all of it. Like, it's wild, but I think none of that feels unreasonable. Like, that doesn't feel unreasonable for 30 years, let alone 100.

Dude. It's doable. Maybe it's already been done and they're watching us right now talk about them maybe doing it. They're like, oh, what idiots, you know. But that could be it. We don't know.

But it's cool to wonder. It's very cool. I don't even know where we're, that's enough mind-blowing shit for me for Wanda. Oh, dude. Yeah, I'm literally shouting my pants. No, I don't know. I adore talking to you, man.

It was a lot of fun. Dude, thank you very much. I was going to say, where do you want to send anyone? But you're just riding around in circles on bikes now. Dude, that literally is like a candidacy for like a mental hospital way. Wait, you mean he's writing around and talking to no one that's there giving away. Okay, he's crazy. He's crazy.

He's given away like $200,000. Dude, idiot. Like fucking spastic. Anyway, whatever. You know, give it a go. Give it a crack. I'm happy to be the laughing stock. No, you're not.

That's amazing. I appreciate you. Thank you for the time. Thank you, Danny. Appreciate it. Cheers.