What Bitcoin Did - Bitcoin is Generational Wealth | Peter Dunworth

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

Peter Dunworth is the Director of a multi-family office and is the co-founder of The Bitcoin Adviser. In this episode, we dive into why Bitcoin is the ultimate vehicle for generational wealth, how to actually protect it across jurisdictions, and why collateral, not debt, is the real story of global finance. We get into why Bitcoin could underpin the collateral markets, how hyperbitcoinisation might play out both personally and globally, and why coexistence with fiat may last much longer than many expect. Peter explains how capital protected Bitcoin bonds could revolutionise sovereign debt, why the financialization of Bitcoin by Wall Street may actually be a net positive. In this episode: - Why 1 BTC could soon be generational wealth - The challenges of preserving wealth - Bitcoin as the foundation of collateral markets - The case for Bitcoin bonds - How Wall Street will financialize Bitcoin - Coexistence of Bitcoin and fiat THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: IREN RIVER ANCHORWATCH BLOCKWARE LEDN BITKEY Follow: Danny Knowles: https://x.com/_DannyKnowles or https://primal.net/danny Peter Dunworth: https://x.com/PeterBTCAdviser

It doesn't matter where your Bitcoin is. If you're domiciled in those jurisdictions, then you are subject to the law of the land, and you need to plan accordingly if you want to maximize the outcomes for this generational wealth. We are going to have Bitcoin form the foundation of all collateral markets globally. This thing can grow to, I believe, tens of quadrillions of dollars to take on that collateral market. There are existing power structures in place that revolve around coercing people through the use of the US dollar. And as long as that exists, then the thought of hyper-bitconization is going to be fought at every level until it actually beats the entire system from within. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind.

We're going to get to billions of dollars per Bitcoin. It's just a matter of when, not if. This is the best time to be alive. And it's about to get better. Mr Peter Dunworth. We are hitting record 15 minutes after the air, the monthly candle on Bitcoin closed. We are now officially in October. How you feel there, man?

I feel pretty good about October, given the last quarter that we've had. So I think we're going to see a very different end of the year. So I'm excited about what that holds. And I'm just very happy with the way things are going, despite, you know, I think the last conversation we had, we've had the most positive news cycle we've ever had yet. We're all disappointed with Bitcoin sitting at circa $114,000. So it's a funny place to be. It is funny. And I was, I've been, I've said this a couple of times on the show. Like, this market, it is a bull market, but it's not a bull market. But it's, um, it's been the one, the most challenging for me in terms of getting any kind of vibe of what Bitcoin's doing. This could be a massive top signal. But right now I'm feeling really fucking bullish again. Like I think, I think the end of this year is going to be pretty insane for Bitcoin. So fingers crossed. I don't know how you're looking at it.

Look, if you look at the news flow, you look at the change in sentiment. you look at change in regulations, all of the government, both implicit and explicit endorsement of it, it's really hard not to be bullish at this point in time, but I guess maybe it's a little bit of PTSD from being around Bitcoin too long that, you know, Bitcoin always wants to disappoint you. So whatever you're expecting, just know that it could do the total opposite. And if you have low expectations, then I think you'll be okay. I mean, the best thing about being in this a long time is whether price goes up or price goes down, my actions don't change. I'm just going to, I'll still be here. I'll still be here holding

Bitcoin. Holding this thing that is going to bring us all generational wealth one day, which is what I wanted to talk to you about. So you obviously run a multifamily office. You help people plan for passing on wealth, generational wealth. And Bitcoin is the ultimate form of that. Really, like traditionally, that has been things like family businesses, gold, real estate. These are the things that you pass on from generation to generation. And now we have this asset that's just superior in every way, in my opinion, and I think probably in your opinion. Do you think as Bitcoin is, we take that part of Bitcoin seriously enough? I think a lot of us underestimate what Bitcoin can do over the next 10 or 20 years in terms of price. And we look at the day-to-day and we get

caught up in the day-to-day sentiment. And I look at how we structure the affairs of clients in traditional finance and how a lot of Bitcoin has structured their affairs and there are poles apart. There needs to be some form of integration because I think a lot of Bitcoiners aren't really planning for what happens when this thing comes mainstream. And if we expect hyper-bitconization, which we all do at some point in time, I think just a side note to that, I think hyper-bitconization happens on a personal level. I look at probably yourself, myself, we're effectively running a Bitcoin standard in our own world. but the rest of the world hasn't caught up to it. But when you overlay, and this is the problem

that we have with Bitcoin, Bitcoin's a supernational entity that is above any state law, whatever. It's basically code. But the problem that we have as Bitcoin is, is that we are trapped in the jurisdiction that we're in, whether it's America, the US, UK, take your pick, and each of those jurisdictions have pros and cons with being in it. And it doesn't matter where your Bitcoin is if you're domiciled in those jurisdictions, then you are subject to the law of the land. And you need to plan accordingly if you want to maximize the outcomes for this generational wealth. Yeah, I think one of the interesting things is, like, as Bitcoin is, there's obviously this is a huge generalization. But like for me, it's coming up to 10 years in Bitcoin. When I got into Bitcoin,

I was in my 20s. I had zero financial background. I'd never really invested in anything before. I found Bitcoin that turned into from a small investment into basically my entire net worth. And so like you go from this living this life where you never have to think about having money and passing down money and how to secure money to having to come to all these realizations. And it's only really in the last few years that I've taken this seriously enough, I think. And like you'll know this because I call you every week asking you what I should be doing. But like it is one of the reasons that Bitcoin has maybe haven't taken this seriously. enough, again, as a generalization, because we are the first people that are viewing this asset

as generational wealth. This has never existed before. This is the first time this is being generational wealth. I think that's a very good point, and it overlays with a whole host of other considerations. I think a lot of us went into Bitcoin with the hope that it was a lottery ticket, but maybe with not the belief that it was going to actually deliver on the lottery ticket. And so if we have look at sort of a lot of the old coins where they're, you know, 10 plus years old, there's a huge amount of equity built up in those coins. Those early adopters weren't buying Bitcoin knowing full well that this was an absolute certainty of achieving a million dollars per Bitcoin, because if they had, they would have sought out a whole host of legal remedies to prevent

and protect any sort of mallet that could come their way and most importantly to protect the wealth that they've got, because one of the things that we see with our day-to-day, work is that Bitcoin's made this statement a whole lot truer, but it's much easier to gain the wealth than it is to maintain it. And this is where everyone thinks getting the amount of wealth is difficult. That's just where the fun part starts. Once you're wealthy, everyone wants a piece of it. There's a whole host of opportunities that come your way that distract you from the main event. There's a whole host of options, considerations that you need to make. There's, I guess, a whole host of legacy issues that you may need to deal with. And these are all complexities that are placed on top

of your responsibility of basically maintaining and growing your wealth. And all of those distractions don't really come until you have a big chunk of equity, a big chunk of wealth that can help out a whole lot of people. Then all of a sudden, there are the challenges of actually maintaining it. So maybe a good place to start here, because there'll be people listening who have got into Bitcoin in the last year, last five years, last 10 years, whatever. Like, wherever you're at, how much Bitcoin do you think you'll need for it to be considered generational wealth in the future? Depending on what time frame you're looking to.

And this is where I think if you're holding one Bitcoin in the next 10 years, that will be considered generational wealth. Point one will be generational wealth 10 years after that. Point 01 of a Bitcoin, like literally 1% of a Bitcoin, will be generational wealth after 20 years' time. So you don't need a lot now, but the problem is is, how do you secure that? how do you look after it and how do you preserve it while you're having to deal with that time issue of Bitcoin catching up to generational wealth in terms of that for yourself. So I think it's a number that's a lot lower than most people think. But the important part is how do you protect it

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So if you need cash but you don't want to sell Bitcoin, head over to ledden.com. forward slash WBD and you'll get 0.25% off your first loan. That's LEDN.io forward slash WBD. See, like for a long time we've spoken about this and you throw out valuations for Bitcoin that seem wild even to me. Like I think the idea of talking about million dollar Bitcoin still, like still seems relatively comfortable to me. But when you get to the point of saying like 0.01 Bitcoin will be generational wealth, like how do we get from? here to there and what happens along the way? I think there are a whole host of spigots of liquidity that are going to flow into Bitcoin. And in all the work that I've done, like I've got a background

in credit markets, equity markets, and I can tell you emphatically that Bitcoin is the best form of collateral ever invented. And if you understand that, you realize that Bitcoin can be as big as you want it to be. We are going to have Bitcoin form the foundation of all collateral markets globally. and with taking a side node into macro, the biggest problem the world faces at the moment is not a debt problem. It's a collateral problem. If we had the collateral to repay the debt, we wouldn't have a debt problem.

But the problem is the debt can't be repaid because we don't have any collateral. How do we actually fulfill that collateral need that the world has when we've printed circa $300 trillion of paper? Because it's effectively, well, it's not effectively. It is the definition of a Ponzi scheme, the current financial system that we're working in because it's a fractionalized banking system. Now, Bitcoin as a form of collateral can expand to take on whatever the collateral requirements are of the system. So we can have Bitcoin go up 1,000 or 10,000 X from here to grow into the size

that it's going to support the current credit system and more. But in order to understand that, we need to understand, well, why would Bitcoin be the best collateral to inflate a way? to create the equity that we need to support all of these financial markets. And in one soundbite, it comes down to this. Bitcoin divorces Wall Street speculation from Main Street consequence. And what do I mean by that? Up until now, every single asset that we've had has been financialized by Wall Street. They've effectively gouged the most out of each asset class. They've gouged the housing market, the US, Australia, the UK, all across Western countries. They've managed to financialise the stock market, they've managed to financialize the bond market,

and they're only just starting to financialize Bitcoin now. And this is where Bitcoin is the only asset out of those three that I mentioned, which doesn't have a downstream consequence for Main Street. Now, what do I mean by that? Well, we're not going to have cost of living crisis, housing affordability issues, when they're no longer financializing the housing market. And this is where Bitcoin, I often get in conversations with some of my parents' friends,

and they tell me that the reason why they don't want to buy Bitcoin is because you can't live in it. And that is the very feature of Bitcoin, not the bud. The very fact that you can't live in Bitcoin, but we can financialize it to be an enormous amount to underwrite the entire financial system is precisely the reason that they're going to financialize Bitcoin rather than financialize the housing market or the commodities market or any other market.

So that should be a big tell that this is the one that has the least downstream consequences for Main Street, which means it can take on the most amount of value. And because out of all the asset classes that we're dealing with at the moment, it's circa two, two and a half trillion dollars, this thing can grow to, I believe, tens of quadrillions of dollars to take on that collateral market. Okay, there's so much in that I want to unpack. So when you say that collateral is like the real value proposition, like that's where Bitcoin is going to change the market. How do we go?

How do we go from a credit-based system where everything is just debt to integrating that with Bitcoin in some way? It happens slowly then, gradually, then suddenly. And this is where I think having just listened to one of your pods with the panel with Checkmody and Joe. Matt, the Bitcoin bonds is a great place to start. And if you, I guess, extrapolate out what one of those single bonds looks like. The government has a huge issue. You talked about the long end of the yield curve, basically having trouble selling. They haven't had a 30-year auction, a 10-year, a 15-year that's been successful in the last two or three years. There are no investors at that level. If you step in and then create a Bitcoin bond, which is maybe 20% is invested in Bitcoin

and 80% of that bond is invested in the bonds that you're talking about, we call it a principal protected note. Two things happen. The government raises the money that they wish, but it will, and I'll just step back and say how that works is with a principal protected note, the investor would be guaranteed to receive their principal back. Now, that's a big thing. And what is really interesting is that that 20% that's invested in Bitcoin is kind of like a

bonus payment that's paid for making the investment in a capital guaranteed product. Now, if you would look at the last five years, if there was a five-year bond issued five years ago with that 80-20 structure, that would create on, say, a billion dollars. There would be a billion dollars of capital to be repaid from the bond, but there would be $2 billion in equity built into that, which was accrued by investing in Bitcoin. So all of a sudden, you've got a three-for-one investment, which has effectively increased the capital, the equity pool that you can now secure and collateralise further markets with. So I don't want to say you've printed $2 billion out of thin air, but you've created $2 billion

of value when you previously had $1 billion. And the way the existing bond markets are structured, that billion dollars is only going to generate a billion dollars plus a coupon of maybe 5% per annum. So at the very best over five-year period, it's going to be $1.25 billion. I've just shown you with the numbers that this is going to create $3 billion, and it's going to create enough equity that you can extinguish the debt on that initial bond. And that's the thing that we haven't had up until this point in time. We haven't had a vehicle that can extinguish the debt obligation of that bond in the period that it exists.

So this is what's revolutionary about the capital guaranteed or principal protected notes is we can actually build out an equity system that's going to be larger than the debt markets that are propping up all of the assets that we've got. So in that hypothetical, if this had been issued, you would have had your initial capital protected by the US government. So you're getting your guaranteed initial capital back. And then you're outperforming even the most speculative people on Wall Street from the Bitcoin coupon on top of it. Correct. So it is like the ultimate vehicle. It's a heavy cake and eat at two moment.

that's the beautiful thing about it. See, that seems insane to me, like, in the best possible way. Like, the only reason I can think that any government wouldn't issue a bond like this, or city, municipality, whoever, is because it undermines the Fiat system. Like, I think this is almost like pulling the blanket up and being like, look, there's actually nothing under here. Like, is that the biggest barrier for the US or anyone else to do something like? this. It kind of gives the game away, doesn't it? This is where the power of regulation is really

important for allowing this to bloom while at the same time solving a whole host of economic issues or financial issues that we're facing across the globe. I look at who are the captured, or who are the regulated entities that they can effectively ensure are buyers of this type of asset. And one of the buyers of that is the US banking sector. Imagine they put in, you know, a trillion to $5 trillion of that into that type of product. All of a sudden, you've solved half the US national debt within a five-year period that you'd never be able to sort otherwise. It solves a whole host of issues, and this is where the captured regulatory entities,

such as the banks, the insurance companies, and I'm sure there's a whole host of other entities that I'm not mentioning here, the government can mandate what they can and can't invest in. So if they turn around and say, hey, you're only allowed to do that, well, that's kind of the quid pro quo for paying off and ensuring that they're going to be solvent in the years. And I look at this and think, well, we all have to do things that we don't want to. And I'm sure there's a whole host of CEOs of these companies who are going to push back on that. But the end of the day, it's probably the medicine that they need to take. It's super interesting. But one of the things that I do struggle with is the idea that the dollar system as the,

global hegemony can exist with Bitcoin in the future. Like, maybe there'll be a period of coexistence, but do you think at the end of the day, this does end in hyper-bitconization and Bitcoin wins? I'll reframe that because I don't think, I think we can live and coexist with Fiat without having to have hyper-bictor, while at the same time having hyper-bitconization.

This is the really interesting point. I think they can coexist in relative harmony, for a long period of time. And this is where I think it's going to be longer than our lifetime before we see full hyper-bitconization where people are just refusing, flat-out refusing to take to take Fiat in response for that. And I can tell you, things move a lot slower than we think, but everything that I'm seeing out there at the moment is heading in the right direction. And I actually think what we're seeing with the US dollar stable coins, what Tether's been able to achieve and the, I guess, the work that they're doing to expand their network is actually

extremely positive for the US dollar. But at the same time, it's really positive for Bitcoin as well. So I don't think those things have to be mutually exclusive in the near term. In the long term, I think everyone will come to their own decision on that and ultimately choose with their feet by moving to the system that they want to. But this could go on for 50 years. So the thing that I think is interesting there is like my, my daughter, like she's going to grow up in a world that Bitcoin has always existed. And we're seeing like the start of what could potentially be like real merchant adoption with what Square are doing rolling out across the US where you can just pay with Bitcoin at every square terminal. Assuming these tools get built out more

and more quickly, there's more and more sort of grassroots adoption of Bitcoin at things like the merchant level. Like why would she ever want to use dollars when she could just use Bitcoin? It's a great question. I don't know. But this is where it's going to fundamentally come down to what is the use case for it. And this is where, and this is a chicken and the egg problem that we can probably go back and forward on. But I look at this and think, I personally, I do, but I would ideally not like to use Bitcoin for any payments on a day-to-day basis. Because why do I want to pay with the asset that's going up at 30 or 40, 50% percent per annum when I can get rid of cash that's going down at 10 to 12% per hour.

That makes no logical sense. And so this is where the other sort of building on that first point about how do we get their generational wealth and the rest of it, the credit markets are building out on the back of Bitcoin and the ease and availability of credit with Bitcoin. And the fact that you can defer your borrowing to fee it is the very reason that Bitcoin's going to continue to grow and why you wouldn't want to use. use your Bitcoin for that day-to-day use case. Now, that's a very selfish and myopic view of why you don't do it, but on a broader scale, more helicopter view of this, you do use it because

you actually build out the network, then you get a whole host of other people involved in the Bitcoin network and you actually grow the network out and people start to see this thing grow out through their own eyes. And I think it's really important to have both sides of things, but from a personal point of view, I'm trying to build out the use case for the credit markets collateral and the other things, because I think that's the fastest way that we have a huge spike in Bitcoin when the financial world realizes this is the only thing that we can measure objectively against. That's the thing we want to own. See, that is fair.

And I don't think using Bitcoin as collateral is going away in any, like in the short term at all, maybe never. But like for her, in this scenario, like for her, I've been stacking Bitcoin. for her since the day she was born. She doesn't have a single dollar or pound or anything in a bank account. She has no fiat, but she has a stack of Bitcoin sat there waiting for her. So, like, it will get to a point where if you don't have dollars and you only have Bitcoin, well, then you spend Bitcoin or you take out a loan against Bitcoin, I guess. But on a day-to-day spending, like, that's maybe less likely. But, like, the world where Bitcoin and the dollar

coexist for a long time is one that I'm not fully comfortable with yet. Yeah. I'm I'm not fully comfortable with it either, but I think it's something we're going to have to get used to because there's an existing power structure revolving around that U.S. dollar that is very, very difficult to dislodge. And the consequences of dislodging that, people are going to fight really hard if you want to dislodge that immediately. Now, I think the path of least resistance is giving them an education on Bitcoin and showing them why this is exponentially better than what they're currently using and how they can benefit on a personal level from it. But there are existing power structures in place that revolve around coercing people through the use of the US dollar. And as long as that exists, then the thought of hyper-bitconization is going to be fought at every level. And I'd much rather a peaceful takeover of the world than one that requires a fight.

And the curious thing about Bitcoin is this is the only thing I've seen that has the ability to ensure that everyone's interests are all aligned. Now, I find this quite unique in that at the same time that you are really greedy about buying Bitcoin and trying to get as much of it as possible, it turns you into a much better person than you previously were and one that's far more magnanimous than you might have been a previous iteration of yourself. So it's quite the conundrum that you come here to get rich, but you end up turning into a much better person who wants to do more for your community and help out in many ways. and this is where the ability to co-op the decision makers who are, I guess, own and control the US dollar, I think is far more important than just taking it head on and having a fight with them. Yeah, I think that's fair. And that element of Bitcoin, the fact that it does truly change you is the thing that makes us sound like we're all in a cult, but it is just a fact. I don't know what to say to you. That just happens.

So back to the financialization of Bitcoin. So you talked about how Wall Street is. is financialized all these other assets and then gouged them. We spoke, I don't know, six months ago on the podcast, and that was all about Bitcoin financializing. Why can they not gouge Bitcoin in the same way that they have done with the stock market and real estate and things like that? Well, they can, and this is the beauty of working with people, not against them. They can gouge, I guess, a whole host of value out of the Bitcoin network.

But at the same time, they're gouging that. We're all better for it because it's being further integrated into the financial system. And a lot of people might push back on the integration of Bitcoin into the financial system, but ultimately it's a great way of protecting Bitcoin until it actually eats the entire system from within. So I don't think we've want to fight them. I think Wall Street monetising and financializing Bitcoin is actually a wonderful thing. We've seen a recent announcement where BlackRock wants to introduce an income fund

on the back of the Bitcoin volatility, which I think will be an absolute killer product. They're effectively doing what you. is doing with their MSTY fund, but they're bringing it to Bitcoin, I think, on a much, much bigger scale, that will be a fund, that income fund will be one of if not their best performing income fund by the proverbial mark. I've missed this. Can you, can you, what is it? How does it work? I think basically what they're doing is they're financializing Bitcoin by selling options on a, on a, in a fund. And what they're doing is they buy Bitcoin, they sell puts and calls and they manage the Bitcoin in there and they monetize that through the

form of selling those puts and calls. And then they give that to the investors in a monthly dividend. And I think their target is close to 3% per annum. Now, I can tell you, 3% per annum relative to all other investment or income options that they offer will blow everything else out of the water. So what would they offer on a normal product like that? A normal income product would aim to get somewhere between 5% to 7% per annum. And this is a product that is targeting close to 3% per month. 3% a month? Oh, damn, okay.

And is there any risk in them doing that? Like, can, I mean, BlackRock are huge. I don't expect it to blow the entire company up, but can they blow the fund up doing this? Anything's possible, but I don't think they're going to do that. But how do you do, is this like a covered call sort of thing? Yep. A little similar.

So how does that actually work? I've never fully understood that. Well, there's a number of different ways that you can, generate cash on your Bitcoin. There's a whole host of ways, actually. Probably, I guess, the safest way is to sell a cash put, and that's basically saying that you're going to buy this asset for a certain price at a certain time, and someone is going to pay you to take that option and leave that available.

And depending on the volatility of the Bitcoin market, will determine how much per month that they get back. And so what's been interesting for me is looking at the, options market around micro strategy because it's a very well-developed market. It's an asset that's more volatile than Bitcoin. And there were periods of time where people were offering nearly 10 to 12% per month to basically take on the risk of buying that stock at a certain point in time in the future. And I look at that and think, that's a great way to generate cash. But there are some, I guess, inherent risk with that. But BlackRock with a professional team, literally the resources

that they've got, they will effectively become the market and then they'll just squeeze that volatility to deliver whatever it needs on a monthly basis. And then, you know, that basically will create a whole host of lower volatility until such point in time. We just get a big kick-up and it'll rip people's faces off. But this is how they do it. And this is where what's really interesting. And if I haven't already, I think we've talked about this, having Dave Dredge on to talk about volatility and risk and how to manage risk. He is the best in the world at it. And he's exceptionally generous with his time. I think your viewers would love to listen to Dave because he's probably got the best outlook on risk in the markets that I've seen. He's ultra well connected.

And Bitcoin is going to start placing or start becoming a much bigger player in this global risk market. At the moment, it's not there because it's too volatile and no banks have built products around this. But as this creeps into the financial system that we talked about and goes deeper and deeper into it, gets more and more integrated, you're going to have banks that are taking more and more risk with these products around Bitcoin. And therein lies the opportunity for the likes of Dave Dredge to basically buy really cheap volatility on these assets and he gets to monetise that at a future point in time. But for the retail investors, they're effectively putting money into a managed fund that's going to produce a yield of somewhere between, probably at the end of the day, somewhere between 1 to 3, 4% per month.

I would love you to introduce me to him if you can. I'll try and get him on the show. Okay, so back to your call that in 10, 20 years, however long, 0.01 Bitcoin is generational wealth. I don't know what the dollar figure of that means. I don't know what you think of as generational wealth. But, What, presumably that's Bitcoin at tens of millions more, in fact, hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more. What does the world look like at that point? Like if I go to the petrol station, what's my petrol cost to me? What are my groceries costing me? Like, what does the world look like at that point? I don't think things are going to suffer hyperinflation. I don't think we're going to have a, you know, $50 a liter petrol and things like that.

I don't think that happens because I sincerely believe we're about to enter an age of deflation, which is going to ensure that prices come down across all of those commodities. The advent of robots, AI, all the rest of it is going to mean that cost of living pressures are going to come down dramatically. And we're going, well, those in charge are basically going to be highly incentivised to make sure that the cost of living comes down. At the same time, as that's coming down, the cost of living is coming down dramatically, the value of Bitcoin is going to be ripping because we've got a deflationary monetary asset for the first time in history.

So I look at this as really a perfect storm that cost of living is going to get much cheaper. And this is where if you look at cost of living throughout the ages, it's never been cheaper to live than right now. We've got less people in poverty, low percentages in poverty. We've got high living standards than we've ever had unless you're living in Australia where the last five years has gone down. but every other country's gone up. I say that facetiously, but this is the best time to be alive, and it's about to get better.

So all of those things, those concerns, we're going to have a price that goes through the roof in Bitcoin at the same time we're getting cheaper costs of living. So I don't think we need to be concerned about that. The ultimate hedge on that is actually just having Bitcoin. As long as you have it, you'll be hitched. You won't have to worry about it. It's funny because I think, I remember listening to a podcast.

I can't remember who said it, But someone said, objectively, we live in the best time ever, but subjectively it's the worst. And I think that's kind of an interesting because, like you say, the stats say that there's never been a better time to be alive. But it feels incredibly polarized. Like there's massive wealth inequality. Like, do we continue to have those things into the future? Because presumably dollar debasement doesn't go away in this time period. I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

but this is the hope that Bitcoin offers to anyone of the 8 billion people out there. If you want to protect yourself from debasement, you want to protect yourself from inflation. The only way to do that across the board for 8 billion people is to buy Bitcoin. And this is fundamentally missed on a whole host of people. I think in Western countries where we live, it's completely lost on our friends and family because they don't see it. You know, sure they get sticker shop with, you know, the printing of money over the last five years, but relatively speaking, they're not interested in addressing or even acknowledging the problem. But for 4 billion people who live in hyperinflationary countries, this is a life and death

situation. And this is where Bitcoin really only gets adopted when it's a need, not a want. And for 4 billion people, it's a need, but maybe 10 million people on Earth really understand and comprehend what this is. So I look at this and think, sort of putting a bow on the question around, how does it really get to these outrageous numbers of billions of dollars per Bitcoin? I fully believe that. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind we're going to get to billions of dollars per Bitcoin. It's just a matter of when, not if, because there's 8 billion people on Earth who need it, and there are maybe a million people on Earth who act like they actually need it. So what happens when the other 7.99 billion people turn up and say, we desperately need this like we need water or air?

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really impressed with their values, especially their commitment to local communities and sustainable computing power. So whether you're interested in mining Bitcoin or harnessing AI compute power, Iron is setting the standard. Visit irin.com to learn more, which is iri-en.com. It's interesting to say that people aren't really acknowledging the problem, because I definitely see this. And even for the people that do acknowledge the problem, I don't think they ever really acknowledge the solution. Like in Australia, especially, the housing market is absolutely wild here. the people who are seeing the issues, their answer to it seems to be leverage myself more and buy another house rather than just do the easy thing of buying Bitcoin. Like, I still think that's a huge hurdle that we need to get over.

The housing market in Australia is absolutely wild. It's the craziest housing market on earth to tell you the truth. Like, no other housing market has got a, I guess, a bigger delta between the average Sydney median house price and the average income. That's currently close to 20 times. Now, in the US, I think it's something like about five times, and people talk about housing being expensive over there. It's like, hold my beer. Come to Australia, check this out.

It's 20 times. It's just completely outrageous. And this is where I can tell you on a day-to-day basis talking to clients, the people who are picking this up the quickest who are understanding this is not sustainable are baby boomers. They're realizing that, hey, I live in a $5 or a $10 million property or whatever the number is, right? And they've had three kids. they look around at the kids and they think, holy dolly, the three of them combined don't have enough savings to put a deposit on this house and the three of them combined couldn't afford

the mortgage that's required to pay for it. So they're doing the numbers in their head thinking this is not sustainable and immigration isn't going to solve the problem across any of the Western countries because through immigration, you're actually lowering the per capita GDP. And if you look at sustaining these property prices are basically sustained. through credit growth, and credit growth is fueled by per capita GDP. And sadly, in Australia, we've had the lowest growth. We've actually had negative growth or loss in per capita GDP. This is a problem across all Western countries, is that we're trying to solve that capital gain problem in our property markets through importing people, and that has been a

key driver for sustaining asset prices. But if the immigrants you're importing don't have the capital to buy into the system that you've got, then you're actually going to have to either lower the interest rates to make it more affordable or alternatively, the property prices are going to fall. And this is something that I'm seeing living in New Zealand at the moment. The property market over here is probably off somewhere between 10 to 30 percent, depending on the areas that you're looking at. And truth be told, there's probably the ability for this to drop another 10 or 10 to 30 percent from where we are now.

The prices seem outrageous. Australia hasn't seen that yet, and I think America is trying its absolute hardest to avoid coming face to face with that problem of a slowing housing market. I mean, just to put some context on it, I live in the third biggest city in Australia, which if you put that into American terms, it's probably like the 25th biggest city or something. And where I live, to buy like a three-bedroom apartment, you're looking at somewhere between two and three million dollars. Like, it's absolutely outrageous.

Yes. But do you think that the property market here is going to collapse at some point? What I'm about to say is not going to be popular. Good. Say it. Well, I think there's two or three things that you could change. The government could enforce that would completely boost the property market and probably double or triple prices from where we are now. Now, I don't know if anyone wants to have property prices that are trading it somewhere between 40 to 60 times. You know, you average annual salary, but there's a host of things that they can do to juice the property market to get that happening. Now, why I would never bet against the property market is that everyone is in on it. And what do I mean by that? I mean, the government, the government's, well, a large chunk of their revenues come from stamp duties and capital gains tax. So if property prices start falling, all of a sudden their revenue dries up. So they're invested in making sure that happens. If you look at particularly the Australian stock market, nearly 40% of the Australian

stock market is made up of banks. And the number one profit driver for banks is residential mortgage lending. So if that drops, if property prices drop all of a sudden, 40% of the stock market has a huge problem. The bond issuance in Australia, all of that revolves around housing. You look at it in the US, the majority of the bonds issued around residential mortgage-backed securities and commercial back securities. The commercial market in the US is cactus, so too in Australia, dare say it's the same in New Zealand or the UK, all of a sudden there's a whole host of sort of cracks in the wall appearing if they don't sort that out. So what I'm saying is everyone is invested in making sure that property goes up and it's very difficult to bet against the consensus bet.

It's, there's so much, there are so much easier ways to make money than betting against the consensus view and one of those is just by Bitcoin. Well, yeah, that is the great thing about Bitcoin is if you want your house to get cheaper, just buy Bitcoin now and wait a little bit. But I agree with what you're saying. Like, the best thing is not to go against consensus on these things because it doesn't often pay off. But when it does pay off, it pays off massively. And we saw that in 2008. Like, this is literally what happened then.

Yeah. Do you think there is potential of another 2008 style housing crash at some point? Yes, there is. The financial markets have gotten a little bit savvier. I think in Australia there is, but we've got a very different finance market, how they do the funding in Australia. The US, I think, is about to, could potentially go through it if they don't sort out the interest rates. It looks like that US housing market is completely stalled.

Are we going to see a rerun of the GFC? In all likelihood, no, I don't think we will. And this is where, from a personal view, and this is where, like, the conversations, I think most bitcoins are looking at is, You mentioned a two to three million dollar property for a two to three bedroom. I'm sure it's lovely. But if you were to rent that, it's probably not going to cost you more than, let's say, $90,000 a year to rent that. Less than $2,000 a year.

Would that be a fair assessment per week? I don't know, but wait, how much would that be per week? $2,000 per week for a $3 million property. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you'd probably be less than that. Maybe $3,000 a week? I think it'd be less. Yeah.

So let's just say it is $3,000 a week. That's circa 5%. But you would much rather pay the $3,000 a week to live in that property than you would to own it. Because to own it means you're going to have to sell down probably about $500,000 worth of Bitcoin. And then you're going to take on a mortgage for $1 million, which is going to cost you 6% per annum. If you're living in it, it's gross money that you've got to earn. So, sorry, net you've got to pay. So that's going to be $60,000 per annum.

If you've got to pay that out of net money, you've got to earn $100. thousand to pay that 60. So before you've got out of bed, you've had to sell $500,000 a bit of Bitcoin, and you've got to have earned over $100,000 a year before you've put food on the table. And I look at that and think, if I'm Danny, I'm thinking, maybe we just rent for a year and see how that goes because it's only going to cost us 100 grand a year. And we don't have a mortgage. We don't have to sell Bitcoin. We can let that thing roll. And what I'm finding is more and more Bitcoin is starting to have that realization that maybe probably, isn't the best property that we or the best use case for our money.

But that is a very real concern. So is the Bitcoin mantra here, will own nothing but Bitcoin and be happy? It looks like it doesn't it? Isn't that terrible? Well, as long as you're a Bitcoin, I think that's the best place you can be. So back to Bitcoin, everything we're talking, we've talked about here is really about Bitcoin as this savings vehicle. all this generational wealth, things that we pass down. We touched briefly on the idea of using it as like a medium exchange and a unit of account,

but do you still believe in that narrative? Because it sounds like you're coming at this much more from like the saving side. Do you think that is the ultimate use case for Bitcoin? Or do you think it needs to evolve into being all elements of money? I think we're going to have, and this is an unpopular opinion, but I look at the breakdown in market capitalization of each of the use cases. So store of value, medium exchange and unit of account, store of value is circa a $25 to $30 trillion market.

You can blur the line on that by saying that the stock market and the real estate market is now the store of value, but let's just go with gold at being circa $30 trillion. I definitely think those other things are a store of value, though. I do too. But for this example, let's assume it's $30 trillion. The mean of exchange market is somewhere between $100 to $200 trillion worth of value that that it basically looks after. That's a huge market that's protected and has, I guess, a competitive moat supported by armies, tanks, air force, governments, police, you name it.

It's a very difficult use case to, I guess, to cajole into Bitcoin. And sometimes I look at this on the meat of exchange market and wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze, because you have to take those governments head on and disrupt their business model, which is printing dollars, to replace it with Bitcoin. And I think if you can control and are the number one use case in a store of value function and a unit of account function,

then by default and in time you will end up with the mean of exchange. So I look at this and think 95% of the market cap is tied up between the bookends of store of value and unit of account. So do we really need the mean of exchange market right now? Why don't we just consolidate control and use case of store of value and meet and unit of account. And through time, we,

and just adoption, you'll end up owning the meat of exchange account anyway. That makes sense. So, and when it comes to the store of value, you threw out 25 to 30 trillion. Is that the number? Yep, give a time. Do you think Bitcoin captures the entirety of that market? And more. How more? I think it has the ability to control. substantially more on that. And if we look at this on a micro level, I think we might take,

let's take a really wealthy person, pick one and we'll do a use case on them and use that as a micro version of what's going to happen at a macro level. Let's go really wealthy. Let's go Elon. Okay, Elon, probably worth two to three hundred, two to three hundred billion dollars. What would he spend on an annual basis? I've had no I did. Let's say, I'm sure he has a pretty great life, 50 million. Okay, 50 million. What's that as a percentage of his assets that he's spending on an annual basis? Don't make me do math live, please. Let's just say it's less than 1%. Is that fair to say? Yep. And this is the curious part that we're all going to get to when it comes to holding Bitcoin is Bitcoin will make up 99% of the

assets because we won't want to spend it all. We want to have our savings. If you look at Elon as an extreme example here, he's lucky to spend less than 1% of his wealth on an annual basis. We all get there if we just hold Bitcoin, buy Bitcoin and sit. That's literally all you have to do for generational wealth. And I look at this and think, this is the curious part that a lot of people really don't comprehend is that the market for Bitcoin can be a hundred times bigger than all of the other assets combined. So if you look at a pie chart, it looks like an entire white pie with a tiny little orange sliver down the middle, which is the 0.2 of a percent that currently made up of market cap of all the assets that we hold. Once people understand what you and I know about Bitcoin,

they're going to hold 99% of their wealth in Bitcoin. So that entire white pie is going to turn orange and there's going to be a little sliver of 1% that is all other assets. Stocks, bonds, commodities, property, you name it. That's how that. it's going to work, but it's probably going to take the next 20 years to achieve that. But what happens to the value of all assets on earth when that happens? We go from being worth, say there's a quadrillion dollars of assets on earth right now, and it turns into 100 quadrillion dollars worth of assets, but 99 of those 100 are made up in Bitcoin, because guess what?

People want the optionality of future purchases, and they can't find a better device to do that than Bitcoin. And is this when Bitcoin demonetizes things like the housing market, the stock market? 100%. And people think that demonetizing the housing market and the stock market and everything else is going to mean that those things are going to collapse in Fiat terms. That's a total misconception. They're not going to collapse in Fiat terms.

They're going to continue to go up and they're going to be, you know, continue to be inflationary and they're going to continue to go up through time. It's just that if you benchmarked and denominated in Bitcoin, all of those assets are going to be crashing relative to Bitcoin. And this is the point that I think our good friend Jeff talks about and does the best job of talking about that we're going to have hyper deflation where as long as you're saving in Bitcoin, you're going to afford and be able to do whatever you want because all other assets relative to that will be crashing. But if you're living in the fiat world, then all these assets are still going to be inflationary and they're going to go up in

value. So we just need to be pricing absolutely everything in Bitcoin, which I already do. And And this is like back to the point you made earlier. Like you said that we're already living on a Bitcoin standard. And that's that's absolutely true. Like when I go out and buy coffee, I'm not thinking about that in terms of how many sats it cost me. But if I make any kind of reasonable purchase, I'm always considering like what that is in Bitcoin.

And so I think what you said earlier where you kind of hyper-bitcoin eyes one person at a time, I think that's probably the most likely path here. It's just I don't know how long it takes to scale up to being $8 billion. in people, but I do think we're going to get there. I do wonder, though, why this cycle we've not seen a renewed interest from kind of just retail participants, because like every previous cycle, we've seen massive upticks in things like Google search trends, like exchange volumes, things like that. And this time, it seems pretty quiet at the moment. I think it's a combination. Bitcoin's no longer novel. So people don't have to research and look up what, what,

is. They know what it is. And sadly, I think a lot of people had a really bad experience in the last cycle. They were promised, you know, a million dollar Bitcoin or a hundred thousand dollar Bitcoin in the last cycle. I think that was going to be a fair, fair mark to achieve. But there was a whole host of Skaldowary that went on that ensured that we didn't get there. The whole FTX blow up was just incredible to watch. I mean, we had a ringside seat to watch this absolute carnage in the markets play out. And a lot of people confused what happened in the FTX scandal with there was a compromise to the Bitcoin network and nothing could be further from the truth. And I remember having a conversation with Vijay, boy Patty, maybe six months before FTX blew up. And I asked him the question,

what's the thing that could really derail Bitcoin? And he said, look, from a reputation perspective, one of the major exchanges blowing up would be really detrimental and could push us back five or 10 years. But that would be, even if the network continued to work perfectly, it would just be a reputational damage, even though the network was totally unscathed. And this was the problem that I think, you know, a lot of people have got PTSD from Bitcoin. A lot of people born in 2017 and then watched, watched it drop 75, 80 percent. And then they came back around, what was it, maybe November, October, November, 2022, and thought, oh, great, you're going to get on this. it's going to go up and then bang, here's your next 80% drop or 75% drop. It's just absolutely

brutal. And this is where it's really in a, it's a case in emotional control being invested in Bitcoin because of the volatility. And this is where in making sure you're a success with this, you really need to have a really long time frame and solve the volatility issue with duration. Just know that you're not going to touch it for five or 10 years. And then as my father and I have joked about in years gone past. He said, remember the mean with the muck getting kicked in the balls just continuously? And he's sitting there smiling as he's getting kicked in the balls. My father said it to me, basically said, this is like Bitcoin. You get kicked in the balls for five years straight. Then you wake up rich. So I think. And you just end up enjoying it.

Yeah. That's a fun part, which. A hundred percent. Yeah. I do think that last cycle was extra brutal as well in the sense that we had that initial pump. Then it dropped 60 percent. So if you were new to Bitcoin, we had a lot of new people sort of post-COVID. If you were new to Bitcoin then, you saw it go down 60% where you were like, oh shit, have I got this completely wrong? It then pumped to new all-time highs, then dropped 80% in a matter of like months. That is a pretty brutal first bull and bear market to go through. And maybe what we need to see is Bitcoin to just either have a less volatile bear market

or not have a bear market for retail to have the confidence to come back. Yeah, it's just going to take time. And now that we've got the world's greatest salesman and Larry Fink on the team, alongside Sailor, I look at that and think it's just a matter of time before everyone comes around to their way of thinking. But it is a, it's literally PTSD from just the volatility whipping people in and out of positions and thinking they're going to be rich and then having, you know, the rude awakening that all of a sudden the expectations don't meet the reality. this is probably going to continue to happen, but I think we're going to have much more muted cycles moving forward.

I mean, I think, yeah, 100%. This is something I was talking to Joe and Checkmate and Matt Pines about on the show that went out yesterday. Like, I think everyone is now under the belief that maybe cycles, aren't going to look the same, maybe completely broken. Like, I feel like that's becoming common consensus. And whenever things like that come to common consensus, we'll see it change and we'll see a big bear market.

Like, that's inevitable. But like, I'm at the moment at like 70-ish percent sure the kind of four-year traditional cycles are done. I don't know where you stand on that. I just think we're entering a very different market from where we were. You look at the halving cycle is now a much, it's diminutive relative to its influence on what the market is moving forward. The size, the scope, the liquidity, and the players who are entering the market just means it's a very different profile to what it had. And to your point, retail's not here. here. That's right. Retail isn't here. It's not being pushed by retail anymore. Now there's institutional investors. And, you know, I think probably, you know, the best tip of the cap to

Bitcoin that I've seen is Vanguard now looking to create a Bitcoin ETF. Everyone bends a knee. Everyone is going to do that. After they just sheds on it for two years straight. And then the funny part is, I think the person who's now CEO of Vanguard had a huge part to do in the launch of the Bitcoin ETF for BlackRock. And so he's probably watched his baby become the greatest ETF ever invented or launched by BlackRock, thinking, well, I get a chance to do that here at Vanguard. So he's going to absolutely have a one-eat-backflip and distribute that to the people who've got $10 trillion of assets with them. I mean, imagine being Vanguard and seeing BlackRock launched the most successful ETF in their history and thinking you've been doing a good thing by your investors.

it's just insane. All right. So just to close out, I want to talk about, this is kind of in line with some of the stuff you do at Bitcoin Advisor, but for people who are like sat on their Bitcoin now and they are looking at this as something they want to have for multiple decades, generations, passed down to their family, what are the kind of things that people need to have in place that you think is overlooked by Bitcoiners? Oh, that's a really good question. There are probably, I think there are five things that I'd like to share that I think will probably have the biggest impact in helping Bitcoiners keep their, keep their Bitcoin. And then I'll talk a little bit more on the self-cassi side of

things, which is completely separate to this. But I think, and this is a very unpopular opinion, and sadly, my job requires me to have really awful conversations with people who are very lovely. But in wanting to plan for the worst and hope for the best, there are certain things you need to do to protect your Bitcoin. And statistically speaking, the number one thing that you can do to protect your Bitcoin is ensure that you don't go through a divorce. So if you look at the marriage stats in Western countries, you're upwards of 50% in divorce. And that is the surest way to halve your Bitcoin pile. And there are ways to mitigate that, but that's the number one thing that you need to be concerned with. The second thing that you want to try and avoid through time, and it's not a

one-off event, it can happen multiple times through life, is ensuring that you minimize the effect of taxes on your Bitcoin. So how do you do that? Well, just have a look at the major taxes that you want to avoid. The first one is capital gains tax. Buying and selling your Bitcoin, you know, in Australia, we've got a 25% tax rate. If you've held your Bitcoin for more than one year, in the US, UK, it can be anywhere from 25 to 50%. Canada can be higher again. And it'll look at that and think that's a really, really fast way to halve the amount of Bitcoin that you're holding if you're not prudent with it and you start trading it. It's very difficult to get ahead if you're going to be basically giving half to the government every time you start trading.

The other, I think, really important tax to avoid, it's not so relevant in Australia or New Zealand, but it is in the UK, US and Canada. This is an awful one, but it's probably going to come to the rest of the world is estate taxes. And the problem with estate taxes is that it's very difficult to get out of. You need to plan. And there are ways and means to mitigate the effect of this. But avoiding estate taxes can increase the amount of Bitcoin that you leave to your loved ones by 66%. And so I look at this and think, if you could talk to any Bitcoin and say, hey, do you want to leave your loved ones 66% more Bitcoin? We'd all jump at it.

But it just requires forethought and planning to ensure that you're putting those Bitcoin in structures that are going to avoid those estate taxes on death. And this is where the UK, the US, Canada, they all have remedies to avoid that, but it's just about actually having the conversation and making sure that you are structured in the best way possible to avoid that. The other one that I think is really important from a generational perspective, and this comes down to actually passing on wealth. And one of the problems that we see with, I guess, a number of clients is, you know, they pass on the wealth without passing on the values.

they're too quick to pass on the value without passing on the values that actually created it. And if you look at statistically, the first generation makes it 70% of the wealth is lost by the second generation and 90% is lost by the third generation. So if you think that Bitcoin's an asset that can last the next thousand years and provide for generational wealth, ensuring that you pass down your values that actually created this wealth is probably the most important thing you can do. And I think a lot of that comes down to having educational, well, financial education around Bitcoin, what's the important or significance to it, how to adequately care for it, look after it, grow it, and most importantly, ensure that you don't lose it. And I guess probably the final thing that I'd look at is making sure, I guess, you avoid the two key areas that can level any amount of wealth, whether it comes to Bitcoin or literally Elon Musk or anyone else, it doesn't matter how much you're worth the two things to avoid.

When you have wealth that you want to pass down and maintain for generations is to ensure two things. One is gambling in any form that it might take. It might be sports betting. It might be betting on shit coins, you name it, avoid it. And the other thing is ensuring that you don't take on any debt. And they're the only two things that can level any amount of wealth. And so ensuring that you prepare for those things and most importantly you educate the next generation on how to basically manage those things, I think is the most important thing for preserving your Bitcoin through time. I think that passing down of values is super interesting because that has both negative ramifications for like you and your family and for Bitcoin as a whole.

Like if we don't pass down the values of what Bitcoin is and why it's important, then Bitcoin is also doomed eventually. And I can think about that from like a personal level. So my granddad worked on the shipyards all his life. My dad like ran businesses. He didn't do anything with his hands, but it's like he was still very keen like as a hobby. In fact, just complete tangent. But we were in Liverpool once. My granddad died before I was born.

And we were in Liverpool once when I was like 16 years old, me and the family, walking around the docks there. And my dad just stopped me like, what's going on? He was like, I built that boat. And it was a boat that him and his dad had built like 40 years earlier, just floating in Liverpool docks as we were walking around. It was crazy. But the reason I say this is like, so my granddad obviously worked with his hands. Like he was incredible with that, passed a lot of that down to my dad, who was also incredible with it. And I can barely put a TV on the wall. And like, this is how these things can get lost through generations. And I think with Bitcoin, we need to be really conscious of passing down the values of it to our kids and hopefully longer.

That raises a really good point. Apathy is probably the only thing that can ruin Bitcoin. And basically apathy will grow with those who haven't built it. So that's going to be a really tough thing for us to hand down to our kids. They're going to inherit basically the internet and internet money and think that money grows on trees. But things couldn't be fair. further from the truth. You know, we've basically experienced the last 10 years of Bitcoin and the

fights that you've had to have to get to this point in time. And then it feels like, oh, the rest of the world's coming to the party now. But the generations that are going to inherit it aren't going to understand the struggles that everyone went through to preserve this network as we see it today. And I look at sort of the two biggest examples of conflict that I've seen in the last 10 years. One's a block size war and one's what's currently happening with call they not. It's going to be really interesting. And like Bitcoin has loved to talk about the fourth turning.

Like I just did a show with Brandon Quitton on it. But the fourth turning probably exists within Bitcoin too. It's like we need to make sure like the good times that the strong men make don't end up in weak men making bad times. How do we avoid that? I really don't know the answer to that. Do you know, we avoid it by more Bitcoin podcasts. Well, you're doing your bit. I'm trying, 40 hours a week.

So the last part that you were wanting to get onto there was the self-custody side. Yeah. I think it's really important to self-custody your Bitcoin. And I look at all of the Bitcoin wrappers that we've got available today as really entry points. They're top of funnel. I look at the Bitcoin ETF. I look at micro-strategy, Metaplanet, all the other Bitcoin treasuries or proxies, the Bitcoin miners, the ETF.

the ETFs, I look at that and think, that's really top of funnel. That's kind of getting people interested in Bitcoin, and that's the teaser. That's the entree. The main is actually delving down into the rabbit hole and actually self-custing this Bitcoin. And this is where the rewards for self-casting your Bitcoin into the future, I think, are going to be astronomical. And this is where I would urge people to say start wherever they start. You do you is probably one of my most famous sayings that wherever you're comfortable starving, start. out there. But I urge everyone to go down that Bitcoin rabbit hole. Get into Bitcoin self-courcourt. Because the benefits of self-casting your Bitcoin long-term are going to provide, literally,

for generations to come. Once you understand how to preserve your wealth, how to custody it safely, the benefits that accrued to you who self-custody your Bitcoin are going to be enormous, particularly with the credit markets that I see building out on this, is that if you own your Bitcoin and you self-custody it, you'll be able to access any credit market on Earth. and you look at, say, the Swiss have got near 0% interest rates, you've got, the Japanese central bank has got an interest rate of half a percent. Bitcoin's the first globally ubiquitous asset, and being the first globally ubiquitous asset, you'll be able to access those markets with cheaper interest rates. Now, if you've got a Bitcoin wrapper like the ETF or a micro strategy,

you won't be able to get a margin lending facility at those rates globally because you'll have, you'll be stuck with the local jurisdiction and whatever interest rates are offered there. So purely from a self-interest, I think it's important to go down that self-custody rabbit hole. And this is where I spent the last 10 years trying to help clients self-custody that Bitcoin in a way that removes every single point of failure from their custody and ensures that they can't muck it up. Because the last thing I'd want to see is telling people how to, you know, how to buy Bitcoin and go down that rabbit hole.

and then they don't do it properly, they lose it and turn around in five years time and say, hey, you know all those things you did, how do I recover it? And this is where I've been fortunate at giving advice on this in the last 10 years. I'm fortunate to say we haven't lost a single Satoshi helping clients self-custy their Bitcoin because we do it in a way that offers multiple redundancies for their self-custody. So you've not lost a single Stoci. I mean, that's incredible. We need to keep that going. Peter, this has been amazing. I think this is the least hair we've ever had on a podcast.

I might title this one, but between two hairs. But before you go, where do you want to send anyone who wants to find out more about you or BitcoinAdvisor or anything you're doing? I think probably the best place would be the BitcoinAdvisor.com, and that's Advisor with an ER. There's a whole host of resources there. You can download a BitcoinAdvisor chatbot if you want. a whole host of help with securing your Bitcoin. We give away all our IP for free. So we just want to make sure that everyone self-custies their Bitcoin in the best way possible. And I urge everyone to take as much of our information as possible and apply it to themselves personally. And if you need

any help on a personal level, just reach out and book some time with us. It's easy to do. Love it. Thank you for this, Peter. You're the man. I know I bug you with a call every week asking you about different things that happen in Australia, different tax implications of whatever it is. You're my personal Bitcoin advisor. So I really appreciate it, man. And I will speak to you very soon. Thank you, Danny.

Appreciate you.