What Bitcoin Did - Don’t Lose Your Bitcoin Generational Wealth | BTC Sessions

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

Ben Perrin is the creator and host of BTC Sessions, one of Bitcoin’s longest-running educational channels. In this episode, Ben breaks down what true Bitcoin self-custody looks like — from beginner-friendly wallets to advanced multi-sig setups — and explains how to protect your family’s Bitcoin if something happens to you. We discuss the trade-offs between wallets like BitKey, Coldcard, Trezor and Ledger, how inheritance planning really works, and why too much complexity can be your biggest risk. We also explore what it means to live entirely on Bitcoin, how Ben helped build a thriving circular economy in Calgary, and why teaching the next generation to value freedom over convenience might be the most important inheritance of all. THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: IREN RIVER ANCHORWATCH BLOCKWARE LEDN BITKEY FOLLOW: Danny Knowles: https://x.com/\_DannyKnowles or https://primal.net/danny BTC Sessions: https://x.com/BTCsessions

If something happened to you this second, would your family be able to access your Bitcoin? It's important for you to start informing your next of kin, you know, roughly what happens when it's their time to claim that. You need to get your shit together now because you don't know if you're going to, you know, be listening to this podcast and get hit by a bus crossing the street. Bitcoin is just beginning. It's just scratching the surface of. of its full potential as for you money. Create value for others, spend less than you earn, and save in a money that nobody else can print,

you're going to be pretty well off. I've thought maybe the idea of retail wasn't going to happen this cycle. Yeah. Yeah, there's a weird phenomenon where it's, it's almost like for the first time Bitcoin is not risky enough. Like everybody's so... A hundred percent. Down trod in that. Yeah.

It's, it's funny. I got a comment on one of the videos, the other day because I had, I think it was when I had Samsung Mao on. Yeah. And he'd been on the old show. Yeah. And I like started by going, welcome to the new show. You've not been on this one yet. And one of the comments was like, there was an old show. And then someone replied on me being like, Peter McCormack used to have it. He's like, who's Peter McCormack? I need to research. So there's clearly signs that new people are coming in. Yeah. This is crazy. Which is what I think we need though. We need retail.

Not necessarily, we don't need them to pump the price. Like I think the marginal difference they make probably isn't the same. as it used to be. But I want more and more people to have Bitcoin. Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. O'Dell was on a week or two ago. And he's like, he's like, yeah, as soon as I deleted Twitter and it didn't take long, it was like a year or two. And then I was on some shows and people would be like, who's this guy just like repeating like Bitcoin catchphrases? Stay humble saxis. Yeah. He came up with it, dude. Yeah, exactly.

But I've seen them about Odell as well. It's like, who's the guy talking over everyone? Yeah. But this is a sialp. He never really left Twitter. He's just doing it all through the 10.301. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Sorry, O'Dale. But Sessions, this is your first time on the new show. It is. I'm excited. Introduce yourself, man. Yeah. Yeah, so my name's Ben. I run a YouTube channel called BTC Sessions.

It's nine and a half years running. Holy shit. 10 years coming up next June. And yeah, so it's all, it started from a place of Bitcoin education. So I spent two years prior trying to figure out how to use Bitcoin. And it was very difficult. There was no, I'm a visual learner. And there was no video material on it.

And so once I kind of got through the initial foray and figured a few things out, I thought it might be useful for a few people to be able to watch how I navigated using Bitcoin. And here we are. I knew you'd had the channel for a long time, but I didn't know it been that long. Yeah. That must be one of the oldest Bitcoin, like educational channels that are still going. It could be. Yeah, 2016.

Holy shit. I can't believe that's nearly 10 years ago. Neither can I. I was seeing that's like 2011 or something. Yeah. No, no. It's, yeah, almost 10 years. I can't believe it.

But hey, I didn't think it was going to be a job. I thought it would be a hobby. Here we are. Yeah. And now you're teaching human rights activists from all around the world how to use Bitcoin. Yeah. It's kind of cool. Wild.

Like the people that I get to interact with and educate is unbelievable. It's the human rights foundation, all the HRF events, and everything that I get to do with them is some of the most rewarding experiences I've ever had in Bitcoin. Oh, 100%. Like even like, I'm not working with them directly like you are, but I go to the events they put on. Like the stories you hear are crazy. And this idea that Bitcoin's no longer freedom money, I just don't think is true. And I think I fell for it a little bit. Like I was worried that we were all going to be rich and depressed because the project failed.

And I don't actually think that's true. Like you see people using Bitcoin in ways that you can't even understand. And it's just, it's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. There's a there's a misconception. that just because what's the term, the loving term of suit coiners, just because suit coiners exist doesn't preclude freedom fighters from using Bitcoin.

Again, Bitcoin's for enemies. And people are going to use it however they see fit. Some people will create treasury companies and put it into ETFs. Other people will literally fund revolutions. So I mean, it's pretty fucking wild. It's crazy. Like some of the events, um, that I've been to, everybody stands up 10 seconds on what you do and why you're here.

You know, I could stand, oh, I create videos about Bitcoin on YouTube. And then like four or five people in the room will stand up and have literally toppled dictators. Yeah, I saw in the agenda, we're at the Global Bitcoin Summit. This isn't going out to leftwards so I can say that. And in the agenda, like the start of it is everyone introducing themselves very, very briefly. And I'm going to feel like such a larp. There's people that are like using Bitcoin to fight dictatorships. Like Bitcoin saved my life.

Like I make videos and people sometimes listen. Yeah. The quality of people that are here, again, to your point, you know, some people thinking Bitcoin isn't freedom money because there's institutions that have hopped on board. It couldn't be further from the truth. If anything, Bitcoin is just beginning. It's just scratching the surface of its full potential as freedom money. Um, the going to like the Oslo Freedom Forum since 2022, I think was my first year there. And seeing the progression of Bitcoiners being there and being the odd ones out, why,

why are these guys here? What's going on? Year to year the next year, a few extra people in the room that are not Bitcoiners, uh, but asking questions as almost like a gotcha. Like, oh, this is, I'm going to prove them why this can't possibly work in my situation. to the next year filling in even more, people genuinely curious to the following year, those very same people now being Bitcoin educators for all of their network. The amount of change that has taken place is staggering, but for us it feels slow

because we get to watch every step of the way. But when you look back, it's happening very quickly. It really is. And I think the other reason it can feel slow is because on Bitcoin, not a lot of changes. Like, occasionally you get like little improvements, you get things that everyone's going to fight about on Twitter. Yeah. But like on the other layers with arc, spark, e-cash, like, things are moving really rapidly. Yeah.

There's so many. And just the usability of tools. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, one of, when I started doing tutorials, the most frequent question I got asked is, aren't you going to run out of stuff to do? Nine and a half years later. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The list of things. things to make videos on is growing far faster than I could possibly cover them. And I remember even just a few years ago starting to do the first videos on multi-sig. And to your point on usability, multi-sig was a mess. Like I would make a wallet somewhere and I'd say, oh, can I use it with a different app? And it just nothing poured it over and it was just, you know, it was horrifying.

And now it's like, oh, I can use this or this or this and I can migrate and it all just kind of works. pretty incredible. I think maybe a good place to kind of start with this is I think there are retail people coming back. I think we're having new people come to Bitcoin. They're probably hearing us talk about things like self-custody and not

keeping Bitcoin on exchange or with an ETF provider. Let's start with how people can go from zero to 100. But even before that, why should people do it? Yeah. Yeah. So, and you're right, retail is coming in, but I think, funny enough, they're coming

in through treasury companies. right i agree yeah and they're probably seeing that maybe bitcoins are things they should be holding yeah yeah absolutely so um first the why because people need the motivation um the the whole premise of bitcoin is to be self-sovereign to be in control it was built from a place of lack of trust in existing infrastructure and monetary systems you can always be rug pulled in one way or the other whether it's losing actual custody or whether it's the debasement debasement of the currency at And really, you don't have control over those things in the traditional system. And so how best to do that, you need to take self-custy of Bitcoin so that nobody can

censor you. Nobody can tell you no. So, I mean, the first thing you need to attack is where are you going to get your Bitcoin? And this, even this can be a nuanced answer. Like, how worried are you about privacy, all of that? Typically, I take people down the easiest route first, and then I say, okay, if you're comfortable with this, then we can level up from there. But depending on the jurisdiction, what's available to you?

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straight out of the gate is going to be a lift. And if you're moving from an ETF or a treasury company you like it's still a better option. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because at the end of the day, if you hold Bitcoin, but in reality, somebody else is holding Bitcoin for you, at any point that can be rug pulled, right? Any point they can tell you, no, you don't have access to this or, you know, a nightmare scenario, you're not allowed to hold Bitcoin anymore. We're going to exchange the dollar value of the Bitcoin now and then take it for the state or whatever it may be.

And all that might seem far fetch, but it's really not. Like that could absolutely happen. And I think when it comes to sort of self-custody in Bitcoin, if someone's bought Bitcoin, they understand why they should. Like there's so many trade-offs. And I just did a show with the Seed Siner guy. Yeah. I think he says some interesting things.

What I was nervous about with that show is it did sound a little like he was kind of shitting on every hardware wallet, that there was an issue with them. And I just, I don't think that's true. I understand why you want to be cautious, why you want to be skeptical. You might need to upgrade over the years and all that stuff. But that is the place to start. And even there, it's not like you go directly to a very complex multi-sig setup.

And like, big key response to the show. I think they fit a perfect part of the market where it's just easy. And there are trade-offs. There's always trade-offs. But it's like a simple setup. So what would you say people should start with? So, yeah, I mean, I typically three things that you want to tap. right out the gate as a brand new Bitcoin are experiencing self-cost. As I said, where are you going to get your Bitcoin?

So figure that out jurisdictionally what's available. Two, I would say first practice with a hot wallet. So again, there's going to be newbies that maybe watch this. What the hell is a hot wallet? A hot wallet just means that the ability to spend the credentials or the keys to your money reside on a device that is connected to the internet, your phone, your computer, whatever. It's just an app, basically. And that's fine for day-to-day spending, practicing, learning, but treat it like cash in your pocket. You wouldn't walk around with your life savings as cash in your pocket. So you don't want to do that with a hot wallet either, but they're fine for day-to-day. So I would say first order of business is get a decent app where you can use it on your phone. Lots of examples of that, you know, something like Blue Wallet or Aqua Wallet or or even Nunchuk, things like that,

where you can just download an app, receive some Bitcoin, just use it. Beyond that, then it's, okay, we're getting into savings territory. We've built up a little bit of a nest egg here. We want to keep it secure and offline. So the keys to your money now reside externally from your phone or your computer.

So they're either on a device as with seed signer, it's typically like either paper or a metal plate or something like that. But the idea is the keys themselves can't be remotely accessed by anybody. What do I start people with? It depends on my understanding of where the person is at technologically, because some people are going to be super timid. So you're talking about Bitkey sponsoring the show. they are cornering a specific subset of the market. The people that probably wouldn't have self-custody in the first place,

but they have this thing and they can put a thumb on it and it just kind of, and they tap it to their phone. And the app super easy with assess. I put my mom and dad on a bit key. Because like if it was that or an exchange, it's clearly a better option. Yeah. They're not prepared or ready to go to like a cold card.

Yeah, yeah. And so like maybe should we just go through them? I want this to almost be like a 101. Should we go through the trade-offs of each? Yeah, of course. Bitkey, very simple. Yeah. What are the trade-offs there?

So the trade-offs there would be that it's cold storage, but it's kind of like warm. What I mean by that is, is there's multiple keys involved. There's the device itself that is cold. The key is on a device that's not connected to the internet. There's a key on your phone, and there's a key on the server of Bitkey. At any one time, you need two keys to access the money. But two of the keys are technically accessible via internet-connected devices or servers or whatever.

So while BIC key, you can set parameters where that key that they have won't approve a transaction, so you require your device in the phone, there are instances where you can spend with the two online keys. And I imagine they have pretty good security practices there, but there's that possibility that somebody could compromise your phone and be able to spend. But the trade-off there is that instead of having

to do seed phrase backups and things like that, you can essentially lose advice and you can still access your mind. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there's mitigation techniques. There's different, they've got lots of unique recovery ways. Um, the, the other trade-offs that I would say would be, um, uh, would be that right now, currently you're, you're more or less, uh, forced into their ecosystem. So you must use their companion app with the device.

You can't use it. If you prefer another app or you want to migrate, that's going to be a barrier if you want to do that. Um, the other thing would be that the device doesn't have a screen on it. And so typically the main issue there would be if your phone is compromised, if there's some sort of malware or the app is not presenting the truth about what you're doing, your last line of defense is to look at the screen on the device. And that's kind of your beacon of truth. You don't have that necessarily. You don't really have that with the bit key because there's no screen on it. it's just verify with thumbprint and tap.

So you don't have that check. That said, with things being open source, there can be eyeballs on the code, making sure that it's doing what it's supposed to, whether the app or whatever. But if something were introduced and it wasn't caught yet, there's that possibility. I think the important thing for people to consider when they're doing this as well is, like, what is your risk? Like, is your risk, you know, being politically attacked or is it, you know, the $5 wrench attack, or I think the biggest risk to everyone is that they're going to mess something up.

Yes. Yeah. You need to have a hierarchy of what do you think is most likely to happen? And statistically, the most likely thing to happen is you're going to screw it up. And so depending on your level of tech savviness and what you're comfortable with, you may make different decisions. And that's fine. People are going to choose what they want to choose. The key thing is that if you can take control of your own money, then you've gotten rid of the risk of an exchange rug pulling you. And that's probably one of the greater risks out there that you can mitigate against. And if you have a system where there's backups and different recovery paths and things like that, as with something like Bitkey or other examples that we're going to talk about, then you've already hedged against two of the most important things. that you can hedge against.

Yeah, and I think, like, that's why I like sort of promoting Bickie, because I do think that it gives people who aren't technically savvy, like a really good option that's much, it's far better than having money on an exchange. And like I say, there's always tradeoffs. People should be aware of the tradeoffs. But like if you deem yourself very technical and competent and you think the biggest chance of losing any Bitcoin is by you mess something up,

it's a pretty good option. Yeah. So should we move up the stack? So I don't know what you want to go to next. Maybe like ledger? Yeah. So with Ledger, again, like, I'm not a huge Ledger fan. I've used Ledgers in the past.

I've done videos on Ledger and taught people how to use them. But it wouldn't be one that I would lean into initially for a variety of reasons. One being that, you know, it's not open source. So like there's parts of the infrastructure there where you can't really tell, you can't, you can't go through the code and know what it's doing. Not that the average person is going to do that. but you want to know that some eyeballs have been on it. So it's a bit of a black box.

You don't really know what's happening. The other thing is that they more or less support just like every coin under the sun. Yeah. And why is that an issue? So with greater complexity comes greater potential attack vectors. And there's also just a man hour cost to that. Like, do you, are you sacrificing, you know, R&D on, better user experience for Bitcoin by supporting every new chain that comes out.

And with Ledger, they'll say, okay, well, you don't have to download anything other than the Bitcoin app because all the apps are segregated. But like the fact that they support the other apps for the, again, the complexity part, it means that it can support that. So it's open to those potential threats. So overall, I'm not a big ledger fan. However, again, like does have a screen. So again, I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

It does have a screen so you can look on the device and kind of verify what's on your computer is also on the device. They have a variety of ways to, you know, connect. They're mobile friendly. There's a, you know, there's, they've got a lot of experience in kind of building it out. I'm not a big fan of the US. but like the app on the phone and on the computer is very clean. But just not my cup of tea, especially the close source nature of it. The one thing I would give Ledger a lot of credit for is their dungeon.

I think that's probably, I don't actually know this, but I think that's probably the sort of most resource-intensive project out there that's looking at attacking all of these different auto laws to then disclose the vulnerabilities to allow people to fix them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And they are really good with releasing reports on, you know, any major vulnerabilities hacks. There was one recently on...

It was something like Cod, right? Yeah, it was, no, it was like the NPM attack, something. Like if certain wallets were using JavaScript, then there was a bit of an attack vector there. That was a few weeks back, I think. But, you know, like, there's definitely informative things coming out of Ledger, but, again, as a bit or first, I migrate to something that's Bitcoin only because Bitcoin only, open source, all that kind of stuff. Like, can you actually audit? It's doing what it says it's doing.

And is it focused solely on Bitcoin so that I know it's as secure as it can be. All right. So next up the stack, what would that be, Trezor maybe? Yeah, Treasor. Treasor. You know, I do like, I do like Treasor. I think that they do a good job. Do you know, I've never used the Treasor?

I've used pretty much every hardware. I've never used Treasier. Yeah, especially now the newer ones. So one of the issues before is they didn't have what's known as a secure element. So this is the key material for your wallet is in a segregated chip that's separate from the rest of the circuitry. Ledger does have that. Treasor for the longest time didn't, and they incorporated them into their latest devices. So that's a step, you know, a step to, I think, being one of the more secure options out there.

And on top of that, they do have, they do support other coins, but they have a Bitcoin-only firmware that you can go one way and load that firmware and then the device is now Bitcoin only, which I think is a positive. So I think they do do great. The tradeoff there is it has to be wired, has to be plugged in. You don't really have a mobile option. there are with Android you can't plug it in but like who's going to bring a cord with your phone and like to be yeah so probably again thinking of this as like a almost 101 type show like why is that an

issue um there is a concept uh referred to as air gaping meaning that uh you don't even plug your device into a phone or a computer um i'll say it gives marginal additional security um i mean And the main reason that I was addressing there was just preference of, hey, if you're mobile, then you might want something that you can just pair without having to plug in. But the air gaping thing, there's a tradeoff in that when you are air gaping, it's very intentional. So you are saying on a phone or a computer, I want to send this much Bitcoin to this address. And then you take that information and you get it over to the device. usually with a QR code or tapping the device or whatever.

And then on the device, you look and you say, okay, is this the same? I'm sending this much Bitcoin to that address. Is that good? And then you approve it. You do the equivalent of signing a little, you know, signing a check type thing. And then you get that signature back to your phone or your computer so that you can send it. And so it makes you eyeball. the transaction more more carefully and on the device itself you must prompt it to say i'm doing a

transaction now and i need to approve it and you're looking at it and saying yes i want to do that and then sending it over whereas if you plug something into a computer or a phone the phone or the computer for a short period of time takes a degree of control over the device it prompts the device to do things. And so it'll prompt the device. It'll wake it up and say there's a transaction happening. Just bring it up on the screen and bring the approves. And so you're more likely to kind of gloss over what you're doing. And there's a degree of, oh, the phone is controlling the device with my keys on it. So it's a limited risk, I would say realistically. But it's one that keeps you on your toes. Okay. And then finally, in terms of hardware, unless you want to talk about anything else, I want to talk about cold card.

Yes. So cold card, this is kind of my go-to. And actually, I'll split this between because, you know, I like what Coincut as a company does just so they create the cold card. But then they also create the tap signer, just like a little tap card. So similar to the bit key where you can tap. This thing here. Yes, exactly. Yes. I probably got it in my bag. Yeah.

So tab signer is more convenience-based. And again, it doesn't have a screen. So there's that trade-off there that we discuss. But travel-wise, I think it's super convenient. And again, you just pair it to an app on your phone. And to approve, you put in the pin for the card and then tap the card to your phone. So that's low cost. I'd say low barrier to entry and pretty simplistic interacting with it.

The cold card, and I'm going to specifically refer to the queue, which it looks like a Blackberry. It's got a full keyboard on it and all of the things. This thing is like, it's a beast. Like it's substantial and it does every possible thing that you could want to do. So for me, I'm like, I want to try everything. And the advanced menu and all of the features that you can do pretty wild. But the long and the short of it is you have a device that has a screen and a keyboard and it has a camera on the top of it. It also does NFC so you can tap with it as well. You can interact with your phone or your computer. And the draw for this one is you can audit the code so you can tell that it's doing what's supposed to be doing. So that checks one off the list. It's Bitcoin only. So I'm not worried about additional software on there that could be finicky. Um, it's air gaped.

So you can plug it in if you want to, but you know, if you want to up your game, you can migrate to air gaping eventually. Big screen so you can like add pass codes and all these different things. Uh, secure element. So it ticks a lot of boxes and the other thing that I really actually kind of like about cold card is it doesn't have an app. So with say, treasurer. ledger, bit key, and a lot of other devices,

I'll throw in Bloxroom Jade. Kind of, there's nuance there. But anyways, when you get roped into using an app, then you're kind of, both the hardware and the software side of things are, it's a single point of failure. And so you must use that app at least, you know, with the Trezor and the ledger to set up the device and update it, but then you can migrate later. With the cold card, you can set up the device, have it ready to go without ever touching any app.

And then you decide what app you want to use with it. And all of the apps are not created by Coin Kite. So you kind of have like this default diversification of software and hardware so that if Cold card wanted to screw you in their app, they can't because there is no app. So you have to have another software developer in kahoots with Koykite to start. screw you out of money, you know, to pull the wool over your eyes. So I think, so I love that Colecard has a ton of features. I think they basically everything you can do, they have often to do it.

But there is risk with that. Because again, like, if you have to assume for most people, your biggest likelihood of losing your Bitcoin is by you losing it rather than being attacked. And they do add like complexity. So do you think most people should stay away from that advanced settings menu? Most people won't ever really use it. The average person, if they're using a cold card, their interaction will be set up the device, which entails like setting up a pin and creating a new wallet and writing down your words, your backup words. And then other than that, it'll be picking an app and pairing the device to the app. When you're doing transactions, it'll be it'll be i want to send this here and then just interact with the cold card yes i approve back and forth

you're you're likely not going to be diving into the advanced stuff and usually if i'm teaching somebody how to use a cold card i'm saying we're only focusing on what you need to know the rest of this is at your disposal as you begin to learn more and you get curious it's just kind of there and there'll be features down the line that oftentimes people will go, oh, this is, I didn't even know this is a thing. This is super useful. So I do think that the average person can get it as long as they focus on just what they need to do, especially like for a very beginner, just plug the damn thing into your computer. 100%.

You don't want to be creating your own entropy with like three dice rolls and then be like, why am I Bitcoin not here? Yeah, exactly, exactly. So like, you got to meet the person where they are. And if somebody is in a place where they're like, this is really cool. I want to, you know, maybe they're migrating from another device and they're saying like, I'm going to up my game now. Then you start them off simple and then you say, okay, here's the breadcrumbs of where maybe we'll go after this.

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on all pass types. The website is mina.b.t.c, and use code WBD for 10% off. And in terms of, like, third-party wallet software, I like, I think wasabi is great. I think Sparrow is great. What else do you recommend people use? So I really, my default on desktop is Sparrow. And, To be honest, even when I'm teaching somebody relatively new, I will show them Sparrow. And I know that looks scary. Yeah. But I explain it in a way where, again, I just try to pull people's focus. Like, you don't need to know, yes, there's other buttons there.

Don't touch the buttons. Just touch the blue button. That's telling you where to go. You know, so I'll start really basic with that. But then on mobile, I think probably one of the most versatile mobile wallets for, for like hardcore security is probably Nunchuk. Like I use that all the time for travel, for inheritance, for like a whole bunch of stuff. I quite like them as it pertains to with hardware.

Yeah, I've not used Nunchuk in a long time, but I think Sparrow is great. Like I use Sparrow all the time. I do like Wasabi. I think their UX is really nice. It is. And again, like it can be an advanced spot, but you can like hide a lot of features and just do things relatively simply. Yeah, you absolutely can. And actually it's, you know, it's, it is definitely.

Definitely a good option. I've got a setup where I'm utilizing wasabi, but then I'm also utilizing spragile. I have this whole thing that I do. You're a nerd. We get it. Yeah. Yeah. So. And then when it comes to things like multi-sig, I, so I hear O'Dell talk about this a lot. And I strongly agree with him in the sense that I think for a lot of people, it's just added complexity that you don't necessarily need. Like, for you and I, people know we're Bitcoiners. Like, there's some risk with that. And like, having. geographically dispersed keys, like that makes total sense. Yeah. But if you're just like a bitconer, like people don't necessarily know you have a lot of Bitcoin or maybe like I think single sig is totally fine and maybe the best option for a lot of people. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. If you're, if you're just somebody, you know, you haven't really advertised the fact that you own Bitcoin. I'd say if you haven't been in a major data leak of who owns Bitcoin, then single SIG is also probably okay. I can't say that applies to me. Yeah.

Yeah. Before the scammers come after me, I've moved address and changed my phone. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you're right. Like if you're public about Bitcoin, I'd say multi-sig is damn near a necessity, right? Like this full disclosure, I'm using multi-sig. You're not going to be able to kick in my door and just get like all the keys.

Me too. Unless you want to take a 24-hour flight with me. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's, it's a lot of these things are smash and grab jobs and they just want to be in and out. But yeah, for your average person, the most important thing is just a little bit of redundancy. So there's no like single point of failure. So like you don't want to have your hardware wallet and the backup seed phrase on paper stored in the same place because then one fire or flood and everything's gone.

So if you can have your device and then maybe have your seed words, ideally like stamped in a steel plate or something. And then fire and flood, mat is far less. Yeah, exactly. So even then, if fire and flood, those two things in the same place, if it's steel, then at least you've got that. If you separate them even better, the only additional thing to consider would be with the 12 or 24 words, with your back. backup to the naked eye if somebody comes across those and they know what they are, they have access to your money. So the one other thing you may want to consider would be a passphrase. I just wrote down BIP 39.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. So basically this is you have your 12-word backup and you add the equivalent of what's like a 13th word, but it can be anything, letters, number, symbols. That's where it gets tricky, is whatever you type in. in combination with your backup is a new wallet. There is no wrong answer because all of them create wallets. So if I type apples as my pass phrase and it's all lowercase and then I go back and I go to log into the wallet and I type apples with an uppercase A, that is a new wallet. That is a separate wallet.

And if I've never used it before, it will show a zero balance, even if I've. if I had Bitcoin sitting on the lowercase apples one. So you need to be very, very clear in writing out that passphrase as is so that if anything happens to you or if you just forget, you can see what it is very clearly. And that might sound scary to people who are new, but that is the power of Bitcoin. And that's why before anyone brute forces your wallet, it will be the end of the universe. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Like it's the main goal with adding a pass phrase is just to put a wall between somebody finding your seed phrase and being able to actually access your money. And so you would store those separately. You wouldn't have your seed phrase here. Here's the passphrase to my wallet sitting beside it. You would have seed phrase here, passphrase at your mom's house or wherever. Yeah. And it's also important that I think people don't just try and remember the passphrase.

No. Because you think you can remember stuff, but give it five, 10 years. Yeah. Good luck. Yeah. Not only that, but like you think you can remember stuff. And even if you do, if something happens to you, is your family member going to remember the time you told them your bass phrase?

I don't think so. Exactly. And so if I was like a, you know, new to Bitcoin coming to you being like, I want to take this seriously, do things properly. Yeah. What else do you think I need to know? So, I mean, those are the core three. Where are you going to get Bitcoin?

Learn a little bit with a hot wallet. Figure out what hardware works best for you and hone in on those. three um the most important thing i'd say beyond your own personal security is kind of what we just alluded to which is if something happened to you this second would your family be able to access your bitcoin and for a lot of bitcoins they start they start going um the question yeah and so if you're watching this going then you you need to get your shit together now Because you don't know if you're going to, you know, be listening to this podcast and get hit by a bus crossing the street. Like, look both ways.

But you, at the very least, you need to write out some clear instructions to your family members saying, I have this device. It has a pin. The pin is the device is stored wherever. If it's more complex than that, it has a pass phrase, which is da-da-da. And then the other thing I would recommend is if you have a Bitcoin or friend that you deeply trust or family member that you deeply trust, put their contact info on that same sheet. You know, if you have Bitcoin or circle of friends, which we're very lucky to have, just having that, and somebody that you deeply trust be able to be like, okay, we know you guys are panic. Let's look at the sheet.

We can at least walk you through what to do so you have access. I think that's super important because your family in that moment, like, yeah, they may be able to get through your instructions. But it's a lot nicer if you have somebody that can be there. Totally. And then like for full transparency on some of this, like I had a really poor. inheritance setup. It was basically like a treasure hunt of different bits of information all over the place and never tested. Like I never was like to my wife or whoever, like, can you actually do this? Yeah. And so one of the things I did was move some Bitcoin to CASA and have like used their

inheritance product. Like are there any inheritance products that you think are really worthwhile looking into? Yeah. Yeah. So there's there's a variety of options out there. So obviously, you have things like CASA, you have unchained, you have these options that, again, it's a multi-sig set-up. So you've got multiple devices. Yeah, Anchor Watch. Shout out the sponsors. I'm actually really stoked on what Anchor Watch is working on. They have some incredible solutions and the insurance part of it is really nice. It's like the product that I think Bitcoin has been dying for for a number of years. Yes. There's obviously some limitations in it in terms of how much Bitcoin you have to have to be able to use it. But if you have a decent amount of money and you want to store Bitcoin in a way

that you can kind of just set it and forget it, it is probably the best option out there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, yeah, what they've done and what they've put together is, is, I mean, all Bitcoiners owe them a debt of gratitude for the hard work that they've done to accomplish that. So hats off to Anchor Watch. The other, and then again, on the subject of Nunchuk, You know, they they also for the the cypher punks out there that are like, I don't want to give up any personal information, nobody needs. Nunchuk has a wicked setup too. That is pretty automated. The long and the short of it is you give a family member three English words and a password, like a bit of a long passphrase.

And you just say, this is for you. Keep this safe. Multiple copies if you want. Nobody can do anything with those copies. Just keep them, keep a few of these. At, you know, whatever threshold you set like a rolling threshold every year, every, you know, a couple of years or something like that. But the idea is you keep on resetting the threshold of when the inheritance will trigger.

When it does, they get an email. It's time to, it's time to receive your inheritance. they handhold through like download the app. Okay, now put in your three words. This identifies the account for them of which one they're supposed to claim. Put in this passphrase and then they have access to the money. You can also force hold your inheritors at that point. You can be like, you've got to wait 10 years to get this.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can do all kinds of fun things with it. So it's, you know, there's a whole bunch of like technical stuff in the background of how that works and what's going on there. But the long and the short of it is your family needs. three words and a password and then they will get an email and access the money and the only sort of caveat is you have to assume these companies still exist at that point uh you can have a a secondary if none if if i die in this calendar year and nunchuk goes tits up and they don't have any sort of a offboarding

like after x amount of time uh then you can still access the funds by using these devices that I've left here with a file. So it would be a pain in the butt, but it would be possible and recoverable. Yeah, I think same with CASA. So I think the other thing that people need to understand, if you're thinking of setting this up today, is that let's just say for easy numbers,

you've got 10 grand of Bitcoin. You're not securing $10,000. You're securing what that might be in the future. And we all think Bitcoin's going to a million-plus. I don't know the timeframe, but give it 10 years. I've no doubt. So, like, how importantly, how seriously do you think people have to take that? I think it's pretty important. And it's not just important for you to get it set up,

but it's important for you to start informing your next of kin, you know, roughly what happens when it's their time to claim that. Like, I sit with my wife once a year and review what Bitcoin we have and where. I should do that. Yeah, it's a good idea. a nice date night. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, my wife was always very accommodative and tolerant. And then she began to be more upbeat and excited about things when our lives might

markedly improved. So she's more than willing to sit down, you know, once a year to just make sure. She's just waiting for the day you get hit by the bus. Thanks for explaining all that. Turn around. Look over there every second. Wack with a shovel. Yeah, no.

Yeah, it's, I think it's important. Even I know some people will be met with a family member that's very resistant, but it's just important to impart on them like, hey, you know, there's been people in the past that have had the equivalent of 100 bucks that they threw away that ended up being millions later. So, like, you need to, you need to treat. this seriously and like even if it seems like it you know not a super significant amount right now it could be and you need to be prepared for that so just having like a little sit down and

and for the love of god when you sit down with your family it can't be like you said a treasure hunt yeah you need to go to the third tree into the forest and then dig a hole and like when did you get access to my treasure yeah i think there's like this is a bit more almost like philosophical But I think there is an important thing as well, like assuming we both live long, happy lives. Yeah. I've got a young kid. I know you've got kids. It's also like passing down the values that people like the importance of Bitcoin to your kids.

Like Bitcoin has a lot of kids. We need to make sure we like keep this thing going. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I'm, I've had a number of proud dad moments with especially like my daughter's eight now. So she's definitely picking up on things. She's got her own little Bitcoin wallet. And we've got a local Bitcoin market at home.

And she goes there. She knows how to like buy things and pull up the wallet. We also actually for her, she gets her allowance every week. And we split it between cash and Bitcoin. So half of it always goes into savings, which is her Bitcoin. And then the other half is cash. And the thinking there is down the line, she's going to be looking at her Bitcoin wallet going, oh my God, this is so much money now, just from my allowance over however many years.

And then we'll say, yeah, and you could have twice as much, but you took it in cash. And the cash obviously didn't appreciate. So it'll be that moment of like, oh, wow, if I save, look what happens. And it goes up in value. And so she's learning. We also actually set up like a hobby miner in the base. That's cool. And it mines directly to her wallet.

So she sees like 60 cents worth the sats going into her wallet every single day. Love that. She gets excited about it. We're not at the allowance part yet. Yeah. She's been stacking Bitcoin since the day she was born. She just doesn't know it yet. But I think one of the really interesting dynamics that with people of young kids, we're

going to have to kind of deal with is the fact that by the time they're 18 or 20 or whenever, Like, they might be going to a world where no one works. Yeah. Like, it might be all, AI might have taken basically every job by that point. And it's like the hardest thing in the world to predict what they're, the future that they're going to live in. I think, I don't think there's ever been a time in history where it's been harder. But the one thing you can be sure of is that Bitcoin's going to be there.

Yeah. And this, I mean, it's interesting. It's exciting and it's terrifying all at the same time. Because, I mean, in a world where wealth wasn't siphoned off by an elite few, taking away purchasing power and allocating it where they see fit, you know, the pie likely would have been a lot more evenly dispersed and people would have been more able to kind of save for their future. But now you're in a situation where most people are, they're never going to own a home. They can't put anything away for savings. And pretty soon their jobs are not going to exist at all, and they have no assets. And in a world where productivity goes way, way up because it's just machines.

And correspondingly, asset values are probably going to continue to explode. And the cost of human labor is going to go to zero because nobody's going to want it. what do you do like how do you there's so many dystopian outcomes that could like again impossible to predict yeah the but if you're going to put like a percentage on it it's going to be dystopian like there's going to be likely a ton of ubi people not working yeah ready player one type live in your house and just go online all day and this is why it's important like if you have kids stacks that for your kids yeah you can do their ubi now with bitcoin i mean you're the ubi i that's going to be I'm convinced it's happening.

That's going to be the government's first response to... What else can they do, though? Like, ideologically, I don't agree with it. But I can't see how to do anything else. There's nothing else. There is nothing else that, you know, if... You know, we've been through... Society has been through things before

where entire industries have been replaced and people move to different industries. But when almost everything disappears, like what do you again when you combine AI and robotics and manual labor goes away um i don't i don't know yeah if you're a plumber you might have five 10 years but eventually it's coming for everything i did a show with roman yampolski um yesterday i think it was yesterday um and he thinks that like ai replaces all jobs within a decade oh my god and and i mean he also think it's going to kill us all. So if it does, this won't be a huge problem. But assuming that

doesn't happen, like, the world is going to be wildly different. There's very few things that you can put total faith in, even existing in 10 years. But the thing that I think you can do that with is Bitcoin. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're going to need, it's tough, man, because if, if, you know, if the government first response to all, like, a complete destruction of jobs is you, and they're trying to pay and their funny money that they're creating from nothing who's who do you think is going to get the finger pointed at them first for the reason it's not working the people with the money that can't be printed right you're the reason that ubi and why it's it's it's going to be nixon currency speculators all over again right like you think they come for bitcoiners

i mean if everybody's out in the street and there's a subset of a subset of people that are all doing quite well. I mean, there's already like, you know, everybody already villainizes the rich. And again, like right now, it can be misplaced because you can be rich and very productive and a net positive to society. Or you can be rich because you're a leech. And, you know, people in positions of power in, in government where they're close to the money spigot.

those are the leeches, but there's no differentiation for the average citizen. They just see, are you doing better than me? You're part of the problem. So even though as Bitcoiners, we're definitely not leeches, you still think we'll be seen as part of the problem? Yeah, because, I mean, what are the politicians going to do? The people that are actually in those positions, they want to keep those positions. They've got, they need a scapegoat. Look how well those Bitcoiners are doing. That's a scary world. I wish I'd never use my name or face. I know. I mean, you think you're bad. I've got this thing in my head. I'm very identifiable. You spot you from a mile off.

Yeah, I'm going to be taking your haircut pretty soon, just to blend into the crowd and ghost. I don't know how to tell you this. This isn't a choice. Is it worse that this was a choice? Absolutely. Yeah. So we've gone through a ton of stuff there of how to get started, how to go from sort of one to 100. Yeah. I think an important thing is that this is like a journey. What you pick today doesn't have to be what you pick in the future.

Yeah. Like getting started is the important thing. Yeah, of course, of course. There's, and there's, there's kind of going to be like a choose your own adventure aspect to this. But, you know, just know that just because you've, you know, there's not going to be a hideously wrong answer, right? If you go to take self-custy and I've, you know, I've just been saying, I'm not a big fan of ledger. and you go get a ledger, realistically, you're still way better off than sitting on an exchange. You know, if you go to use, you know, some hardware, it's going to be better than relying on a custodian.

You know, it's just that you don't overcomplicate it and you don't lock yourself out of the Bitcoin. That's all. Yeah, 100%. Okay. Before we close out, I want to talk to you a little bit about what's going on up in Canada. Because you said before you have a, I mean, I don't, we don't need to talk politics. I saw you wince then as soon as I got that. But you were saying that your daughter goes to a Bitcoin market.

Yes. Do you have a little circular economy building up there? Yeah, yeah. I think this is super important. You know, obviously Bitcoin's an incredible savings technology. But at the end of the day, in a nightmare scenario, like we just discussed, scapegoat, Bitcoiners, you know, let's outlaw Bitcoin. You can't hold it anymore.

confiscation, illegal to spend it, kind of, you know, on ramps and off ramps, turn, you know, shut down. What happens if you're the bitcoiner that's a recluse that has never met another Bitcoiner in person and you've got this asset that's technically quite valuable, even still, but in your jurisdiction you're not allowed to use it. what do you do how do you actually utilize that at home if there's no on an off ramp if there's no merchants that you know of and i think building a local bitcoin community and circular economy is is a very valid and important goal that a lot of people should have so yeah we started a local market in my city calgary um

And at this point, we've got total merchants, I'm not sure. But every time we have a market, it's somewhere between 40 and 50 merchants that are there. All accepting Bitcoin. Yeah, every single one is like it's only Bitcoin at the market. And so all of these merchants and we've really pushed to try and get people that, yes, there's obviously artists and people with Bitcoin merchants, stuff like that, which is awesome. But we also wanted to make sure there was always stuff that you legitimately need. You want a butcher and a baker and all this kind of stuff. And we have all that stuff.

We have local farmers that bring eggs and beef and jerky and all this different stuff. We have, you know, personal trainers. We have tradesmen. We have a plumber. We have somebody who does flooring, electricians, all of these different things. We have health professionals. We have my barber. We have a whole bunch of different things.

So that, you know, and it's not just at the market that we transact. what I'm really trying to push is that we create a society within a society. So it's like, you know, the secret handshake, you know who to go to to get your beef for Bitcoin. And I think that's it creates not only kind of this natural, circular, you never need to exit Bitcoin again kind of mentality, but it also gets back to a day where you knew your butcher, where you, knew the people that you dealt with and it wasn't just like a faceless company because you see each other you you you have a bond and so yeah we've been doing this for um you say a couple years now and we do it a you know a few times a year but then i always put a challenge to the participants like find three other merchants here that you what they have you really need and you really value what they do you

think they do good work and i want you to transact with each one of them at least once before the next market happens so that there's this, again, underlying community within a community. And then if shit did hit the fan like that, you have your crew. Yeah, you, you're self-sufficient. You can get most of what you need with Bitcoin. I think the cool thing from a merchant side as well is like, let's say you're a farmer. Bitcoin, like they just get gouged consistently from the supermarkets and place like that, and which always leads to degradation of quality. Yeah. And we know that like Bitcoiners values, will pay more to have better quality goods.

Yes. And so there is an incentive there where they can make more money, provide better quality stuff, and not have to deal with like supermarkets and places like that. Yeah. There's this guy and he always brings this jerky. And so I don't know if you've ever had the bull Bitcoin crew is always bringing around.

They've got like branded bull Bitcoin jerky. Anyways, Albertan dude, it's the best jerky I've ever tasted my entire. entire life. He comes to the sat market and he cleans up. He's sold out within two hours. That's awesome. And he's like, this is super worth it for me every time. He drives hours and hours to get there every time and he will never miss a market because he's just, yeah, but it's like the quality is just amazing. And you're right. Like when you're spending sats, there's this inclination. Everybody says, don't spend your Bitcoin. No, I think you, you can,

even if you're earning dollars, you can still kind of have like remain even spend and replace. And in doing so, only buy things that are worth the money, the type of money that you're spending. And what you're doing is you're rewarding people that are creating quality products and you're spending quality money with them. And you want the people in your community not to be creating trash. You want to have good quality stuff. And again, in a world where shit hits the fan, most of the products and services are going to be total garbage. So you need to surround yourself with better people.

But the don't spend your Bitcoin narrative is nonsense. Any dollar you spend could be Bitcoin. So whether you're spending Bitcoin or you're spending dollars or pounds or euros or whatever, you're doing the same thing. There's an opportunity cost to everything. Like if you're 100% Bitcoin, what are you going to spend? You only got Bitcoin. And so like, you know what?

You should get on zero. Yeah. This is exactly it. And this is how, I mean, I've been living on Bitcoin since 2020. Zero dollars in the bank account. The only dollars in the bank account are stuff that has to come out of a bank account. So I get paid in Bitcoin, 95% of my income is Bitcoin. And whatever comes in, I know what bills have to come out.

So I just convert that as soon as the invoices come in, plunk that in the bank. And then, like, I have bare minimum dollars just for that. purpose. My wife, while I'm down here, she's like, can you, can you send me a bank transfer for $300? I was like, I cannot because otherwise we won't be paying our car payment, but I'm like, I can send you Bitcoin and then you can convert it. And she's like, okay. See, on a business level, I do have dollars in the bank account. I need to get better at that. But on a personal level, I have like a little bit, but almost like close to zero. And I just spend everything on a credit card throughout the month. And then as soon as I get paid, pay that off, everything else is just

Bitcoin. And I've been doing that for a few years now. And like there's times when it sucks and there's times when it's great. But the times when it's great, definitely outweigh it. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. Like it's just if you can, again, there's a very simple equation that, I mean, for the time being until AI takes over, we'll do very well for a lot of people. Create value for others, spend less than you earn and save in a money that nobody else can print. you're going to be pretty well off. Yeah. And if you're already in that money,

then you don't even have to do an extra step in between. So how do you start a Bitcoin, circular economy, Bitcoin market? Because I live in Brisbane. We have a meetup every month. I'm never there for it because it happens to fall. It seems to be always when I travel. But when I do go, it's good. There's a lot of people there.

And I think if you try to set something up, you could probably get it started. But how did you get it to the point where you have like 50 merchants or whatever it is? So I started going to the meetup and requesting to take five minutes at the beginning of each meetup and just say, hey, I'm looking for the following thing that somebody would accept Bitcoin for. I'm looking for a plumber. I'm looking for whatever. And oftentimes, either it would be somebody in the room does that thing or it would be somebody in the room knows somebody who does that thing. or it would be somebody in the room

knows somebody who does that thing. So then they go to that friend who very possibly not a Bitcoiner, but they plant that seed. Hey, somebody's asking, you know, if there's a plumber that would accept Bitcoin, you know, would you ever do that? Maybe they say no, but like curiosity is peaked.

And then so I started doing that. And then I also started encouraging people at the meetup to get up. And, you know, like we all know this is better money. We all earn dollars. then buy Bitcoin with the dollars. If you can, on occasion, why not cut out that step when somebody pays you in Bitcoin? So I started encouraging people to stand up and be like, oh, I actually do this.

And I'd be happy to accept Bitcoin for it. And not just once, like every, hey, as a reminder, so and so does this. There's our plumber. There's the flooring guy. There's the personal trainer. Like, you know, if anybody needs any of this stuff, they all accept Bitcoin. So hit them up. I started doing that a bit more regularly.

And then it was kind of end of the year, one year. And I saw something, people were whining about regulations on, like, choke point 2.0 style clamped down on what you could do with exchanges and thing. And everybody is whining about it and biching about it and kind of shooting the messenger, the one exchange that came out and said like, hey, guys, just so you know you can't do this before you go on or offer our exchange. It was a coin join or something. Everybody's trying to shoot the messenger. I was like, guys, you get like, do something about. it and for me the thing that you do is you don't require the on and off ramps to get your bitcoin or use your bitcoin and that's that's the way that it becomes completely unshakable yes

somebody could shut down the exchange that i need to use to get dollars or get bitcoin but is somebody could tell me i can't go to my friend frank and get eggs and pay them in sats good luck like just demand to be paid in bitcoin yeah exactly exactly and so we we did that a little bit But right around that time where I saw that story, I was, I don't know why. It just really riled me up. So I reached out, went to the meetup. I was like, we're doing this. We're doing it in four weeks.

And we put together a market. We had 30 merchants at our first market. Wow. And with four weeks prep time, we found a venue. We went and we just kind of hodgepaged it together. And yeah, the most challenging part is getting people to stay in contact and keep interacting in between markets. But it becomes like a fun social event.

People's super keen just to get together, not even to have to listen to talks or anything, but just to interact. And everybody is so like-minded and just happy to come together. It's been great. We've got another one coming up in December. And we try to pair other things with it. So we'll have the market. And then the day after we all drive up to the mountains and stay in Banff for a weekend.

I can't do December. When is the next one after? I'm coming. That'll be in Calgary. last week of June. Oh, no skiing then. Yeah, but we're still going to go to the mountains. I'm coming when it's snowy.

Well, you should come in the summer, too. The hiking's amazing. So we're going to go up and there's hot springs and there's a whole bunch of stuff. We'll do a hike. Well, last time we went, we did a workshop. We did like a Bitcoin workshop out in the mountains. And then before the workshop started, we hiked up a mountain and back down.

I was in Banff. Like, how would it have been? 21 maybe. Yeah. They would have been that winter, so either 21 or 22. Yeah. Stayed at that hotel. It's like Hogwarts.

Oh, yeah, in the Banff Springs. It was incredible. Yeah. That place is amazing. We went up to late Louise. It was very cool. Next time you do want in winter, I'm coming and go snowboarding. Next time you come, come stay in the Bitcoin Hotel.

Is there a Bitcoin hotel? There's a hotel. They accept Bitcoin. They're a part of the market. If you go into the lobby, you'll find a little bookshelf and it has like Bitcoin. Standard, a bunch of other, like, awesome. And even like tangential, like the fourth turning and the sovereign individual all on this little bookshelf as you enter. Does it look like Hogwarts, though? Because that place was incredible. It doesn't. But it's got awesome steam rooms and a cold plunge and a nice

pool. Sold. And it's, they just renovated. It's, I mean, it's called the Kenrick. But this guy, Jeff owns it. And he's an awesome Bitcoin. He's super keen. And he gives discounts for Bitcoin. Okay. Sold. Challenge accepted. The next meetup I'll be in in Brisbane is in November. So first Thursday in November, if you live anywhere near Brisbane, come. Do I set this up? Hell yeah.

Sessions, this has been amazing. Dude, thank you. Thank you. Anywhere you want to send anyone, where do they find your nine and a half-year-old YouTube channel? Yes, yes. So, yeah, you can find me BTC sessions on YouTube. But if you're a person that's maybe coming in, you're relatively new, and you just want a well-c curated kind of like, what do I do next type thing?

I set up a learn page that I've just kind of hand-selected some very specific videos that you can just go through. If you can get through that page, you're going to have more skills than most Bitcoiners. It's just BTCSessions.ca, Canadian, slash learn. And if you go there, it's going to have exchange, hot wallet, cold wallet, and then some additional advanced skills if you want to level up beyond that. Perfect. Thank you, man. I know you're on your fitness regime. I made you drink beer, but...

I mean, I, you know, I take low breaks here and there. It's beef steak tonight. You got to have a couple of days. Yeah, exactly. A few steaks will offset the beer. All right. Thank you, man. This has been great.

Cheers. Cheers.