What Bitcoin Did - Liquidity, Deficits & the Real Bitcoin Signal | Sam Callahan

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

Sam Callahan is the Director of Strategy & Research at OranjeBTC. In this episode we discuss why Bitcoin’s fundamentals have never been stronger, why Bitcoin periodically decouples from global liquidity, how internal market dynamics can override macro conditions, and why today’s divergence between improving fundamentals and weak price action may actually be one of the most misunderstood moments in this cycle and why the four-year cycle framework is increasingly unreliable. We also get into the deeper structural risks facing the global financial system, from fiscal dominance and runaway deficits to the looming insolvency of Social Security and Medicare. Sam walks through why entitlement spending, demographics, and interest expense create a problem that can’t be solved politically, only postponed monetarily. THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: IREN ANCHORWATCH BLOCKWARE LEDN BITKEY SWAN FOLLOW: Danny Knowles: https://x.com/\_DannyKnowles or https://primal.net/danny Sam Callahan: https://x.com/samcallah

The fiat system steals time, which it's a terrible thing to have to just suddenly break the promise that they made to these people. It just goes parabolic in terms of the interest expense. And then you're in this situation where, I mean, massive currency debasement will probably happen at that point. 97% of institutional capital, almost $100 trillion, have investment mandates for equity in bonds, right? And that's trapped capital. We love Bitcoin and we want to drive its adoption because we think it's the most important technology of the 21st century. These positive developments keep coming every single week. And so you have this divergence of improving fundamentals and depressed price.

And typically that's a good opportunity, right? It's like zoom out, the cliche and think long term because Bitcoin's value proposition has never been stronger. I think those price predictions that you hear that we're all wrong are eventually going to be right. But it's just the time horizon. And that's the hardest part to predict. So I'm Callahan. Hey. How you doing, man?

Great. It's been a little while since you've been on the show. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Things have changed for you. Yes. Go on. Tell everyone about your treasury company. So I'm the director of strategy and research at Orange BTC.

We're the largest Bitcoin treasury company in Latin America. So we have 3,720 Bitcoin. We went public about eight weeks ago on the a B3 stock exchange in Sao Paulo. Our mission is to accelerate Bitcoin adoption in Latin America and Brazil, in a place and region that needs Bitcoin the most, right? They have so much currency to basement and instability there. They also have like high rates of digital asset adoption broadly,

but still there's a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of education, in terms of building out infrastructure, you know, Bitcoin financial services, Bitcoin products. We think Orange could be a leader in this and be like the Bitcoin hub, both improving Bitcoin access for pools of capital that can't buy spot Bitcoin, as well as, like I said, building out Bitcoin financial services and products over time and being kind of that educational powerhouse for Bitcoin. Because, you know, it's kind of amazing.

It's like two to three years behind in terms of like the Bitcoin understanding there. And even just writing like a Bitcoin 101 report that we just put. out in Portuguese, you know, maybe some of the content is familiar to US audiences, but we released it and it's, it was wildly popular because like, wow, I never, I never thought about, say, like, like, Cresas total addressable market chart that everyone knows, like we put that in Portuguese and they're like, oh, I never thought of it like that. So it just shows like how they're a little bit behind, but that presents a lot of opportunity for a company like Orange. Oh, there's a massive opportunity there. Like, especially the amount of stablecoin usage there,

like educating people who are Bitcoin, why that's, that's important. I think it's very cool. Congratulations. Thanks. I'm going to give you some shit about Treasury companies. I'm going to ask you some of the hard questions because I'm still on the fence a little bit. But can we start with some macro stuff? Because you do a lot of a macro analysis. You do reports with Lynn. What are the things that you're keeping an eye on most closely at the moment? Well, Lynn and I wrote that piece on Bitcoin's correlation with global liquidity. And so I always keeping an eye on global liquidity conditions. And I think there was that chart going around that looks at Global M2 and Bitcoin.

And there's a lot of disappointment because Global M2 is going up and Bitcoin's price has decoupled from it. Yeah. And there was like, this is broken. This relationship's broken. It wasn't, it wasn't correct. But in the report, if you read it at the, there's an entire section that we wrote about how Bitcoin decouples from global liquidity conditions at times.

And I think we're in one of those. moments right now. So why do you think it would be decoupling now? Well, in the report, we talk about how a couple things. When there's internal market dynamics, like within Bitcoin itself, it can like override what's going on with liquidity. And that like so for instance, like the FTCS collapse, that was unique to Bitcoin. Didn't matter what was going on with the Fed or the money printing. There was a lot of chaos going on in the Bitcoin market itself. And it got wrapped up in all that chaos. And so the Bitcoin price suffered despite liquidity conditions. being either unchanged or actually improving.

So that was one example, or like a good example, would be the launch of the ECFs, you know, that added a lot of demand, even though interest rates were going up. So about decoupled to the upside. Yeah, exactly. So like, that's like unique factors that can some, like idiosyncratic events that can lead to the decoupling.

But then there's also like supply side dynamics. So think about liquidity is like a demand side dynamic. Well, supply side dynamics can also override the liquidity conditions. And when I say supply side, typically that means like when you talk about the long-term holders. We probably talked about that in a show with other guests of how they've been like taking to profits, which is normal behavior in a bull market. But when you see a lot of that, sometimes those dynamics can override the liquidity conditions too. And so I think lately that's exactly what we've been seen.

And so I don't think the relationship is broken. I think we're just in this like temporary period where these other dynamics are at play. but they're temporary. And eventually, liquidity takes the wheel again. And right now, what we're seeing is liquidity conditions in terms of 85% of global central banks are cutting rates already. Fed's obviously cutting rates.

You're seeing some of these moves by the Treasury indicating that there's some tightness in liquidity conditions, which means they're returning to, say, like they're stopping QT, the Treasury's talking about issuing on the short end, or the Fed starting to buy T bills. They also tweak the bank capital reserve requirements, which is to create more demand for treasuries

because they know they got to do these trillion dollar deficits still. So like the liquidity conditions will take the wheel again, and they're actually going to be easing, it seems like, over the next year or two years, which is good for Bitcoin. Yeah. Yeah. So you think this is a temporary thing for Bitcoin. You don't think it's like four year cycle type thing playing out?

No, no. Because, I mean, look, I look at the fundamentals. Like, I always looked at the fundamentals. You look at the price. You're going to get wrapped up in the volatility. But when you look at what's going on over the last year, like I just wrote this other report, and it was about major milestones in Bitcoin adoption.

And I had to do two separate timelines because so much has happened in 2025 alone in terms of all the regulatory changes, all these institutional adoption, all these major news stories. It seems like every week we get something that it's like, wow, this is wild. So, like, last week it was, like, Bank of America, right?

Or, like, Vanguard pivoting. You know, these are, like, they just keep, these positive developments keep coming every single week. And so you have this divergence of, like, improving fundamentals and depressed price. And typically, that's a good opportunity, right? So I think, I think, I've never been more bullish on BIC. I think it's an amazing entry point,

not financial advice or anything, but it's just I've been in this for, you know, eight years now, and I've never seen such positive fundamentals for Bitcoin. The thing like, so I don't follow macro anyway, near as closely as you do, but the thing that I always think, and this might be super simplistic, is the midterms are next year, the economy is incredibly important to the midterms, therefore economy is going to be good.

And generally, like, if you have like additional liquidity into the markets, Bitcoin's probably going to perform better than most things. But it's interesting, like over the last, few years, maybe the last two years, Bitcoin's not really had like an influx of new people coming to it. It doesn't seem like at least. And certainly not like in 2017 or 2021. And my kind of take on that is they're probably going to like AI stocks, which are running like crazy. Yeah. I mean, weirdly gold has had more retail interest than Bitcoin, I think, this cycle. Do you think that's coming back? Or do you think we're kind of missing a narrative in Bitcoin at the moment?

Well, you said I don't think more people are getting into Bitcoin. More retail, maybe. It's not like this speculative fervor that you've seen before. Like, I mean, you could have Google searches, but I think anecdotally, you just feel it. There's not like, I mean, you worked at this podcast for a long time. And so it's different, right? Yeah. And you're right.

I think the casino over in the AI world and the returns over there, and it's making Bitcoin not look as attractive or as exciting for people. And so that's probably part of the story. But that doesn't mean not a lot of people are going. It's just, it's more institutional, right? Yeah. which is more money, honestly, there's gonna be more demand flowing

from those institutions than the retail investors. And so it's just kind of different. It's like a different cohort coming in. But I think eventually the retail will get back in. And then maybe it's a different entry point. So obviously the ETF's kind of changed the game. And so Black Rock's ETF most profitable now and almost $100 billion in AUM, probably a little bit lower now.

but they might be going there, right? Instead of going into Spot Bitcoin, they might be going through their financial advisors who are good into Ibit for them. So I think it's just like a different market than it was in 2021 or 27. But I think, you know, when Bitcoin starts running, number go up,

I think they're going to come back. I totally agree, because I think one of the weirdest dynamics is over the last year, I think Bitcoin's not been volatile enough for people. Yeah. And I think that's why you've seen loads of people go to treasury companies and like AI stocks. as soon as Bitcoin starts running, that might completely change.

Yeah, and the volatility, if you look at like 90-day rolling volatility, it was like historic lows for Bitcoin. Yeah. You know, it's partly probably because of, like I said, the changing investor base of more institutional investors coming in. And they kind of behave differently than retail is one thing, but also they use like hedging strategies. So they can like sell covered calls, which kind of dampens the volatility.

with those different hedging strategies. And so those option markets are more liquid than they were before. There's just more options for them to do those. And so I think those dynamics are at play here. But I don't think Bitcoin's volatility is gone. I think when you have a fixed supply asset like this, it's never existed before, ever. And so I think the next wave of demand,

I do think you're just going to see volatility start to creep back up a little bit. I mean, maybe there's this secular trend of going down, which is going to continue. But I do think we're going to kind of see some more volatility. That's what we've seen, right? Over the last month, volatility came back. Maybe that's the direction that everybody won. Definitely came back. So I think that's going to happen again.

Yeah, I hope so. And this year, I feel like no one predicted what the price was going to do this year. I don't know anyone that said. So from the day I started the podcast, it was a year three days ago, the price was lower after a year, and I don't think there was any Bitcoin that would have called that. No, no. I mean, myself included. I mean, because of these fundamentals, I thought it was going to be higher than it is right now. But at the same time, it's almost impossible to predict Bitcoin's price. I think that's the lesson here. It's like nobody actually knows in the short term where Bitcoin's

going, but it's like zoom out the cliche and think long term because Bitcoin's value proposition has never been stronger given the macro environment that we're in. So over longer periods of time, I think those price predictions that you hear that we're all wrong are eventually going to be right, but it's just the time horizon and that's the hardest part to predict. What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at the same time? Well, by mining Bitcoin with blockware, you can. New tax guidelines from the Big Beautiful bill allow American miners to write off 100% of the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year. That's right, 100% write off. So if you have $100,000 in capital gains or income, you can purchase $100,000 of miners

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You were saying that you think Social Security and is it Medicare as well? Yeah, and Medicare. I'm kind of cooked. Well, they are. I mean, it's just math. It's just the arithmetic. This is something I've never really paid much attention to. So tell me about this.

Well, look, so Lynn and I wrote that piece on fiscal dominance. You know, she's been talking about nothing stops this train. And we wrote like another piece kind of on that topic. And at the end of the piece, I talked about how Doge is going to fail. And this was before everyone was like really hyped up on it. And I tweeted, I said, two things can be true at once. Doge won't put a dent in the fiscal deficit, but it will maybe raise some awareness about fraud. And so I think that aged pretty well.

And it really, the why we knew that was we just ran the numbers. Like we looked at what we actually spend the money on in terms of the fiscal deficits. And 70% of the spending occurs on mandatory entitlement programs. So by law, these are promises that they have to pay. So Social Security, Medicare. And then the last one was interest expense, right? Which is huge. Which is huge.

And so that increased a lot when the Fed Jacked rates. That's a little different. But so these, and basically, if we want to try to bring down the fiscal deficits, like Doge's goal, you have to touch the entitlement programs. And the problem is Doge didn't have any authority to touch it, that to change any of the eligibility requirements or the benefits takes an act at Congress. And so we knew that most of the fiscal deficits was mandatory and that really when you break it down, if Doge couldn't touch any of that, then they weren't going to do anything. And so that's exactly what it happened. So when Elon was saying, hey, we're going to cut a trillion dollars here and there, it's like, you run the numbers.

You're like, how you can't do that? Like, you can't do that. And so it's concerning because when Lynn and I at the end of that report, we had a very balanced take. We were like, this isn't going to be dramatic this decade. You know, everything's going to run hot. So inflation's going to run hot. GDP is going to run hot.

Deficits will continue to be very large because they're structural. When you say structural, I'm talking about these entitlement programs, basically. And so it's going to continue, but we said the end of the decade. And when I was writing that, what I had in mind was that there's projections from the CBO that Social Security and Medicare are going to go insolvent by 2032, which means for the first time, they're going to bring in not enough money to service all of the beneficiaries. And so that's a huge problem that's coming on the horizon.

And so, yes, it's not going to be dramatic at the end of this decade, but when that happens, things can get really dicey in terms of how we manage that problem. And it's coming. It's seven years away. And nobody's really come up with, like, real solutions to how to address this. And you think about, I think about the fourth turning a lot, because they say that the climax is going to happen in 2030 to 2032. And so I don't think it's a coincidence that we're going to come into this period around that

time right when the Social Security and Medicare go insolvent. And so we get into like what that means and stuff. Yeah. And I mean, and that's the longest time frame. Like there's a reality where that happens earlier than 2032. But what does that exactly mean? Like is this actually maybe a better question is, is this happening because of aging demographics? Yes. Yeah. So it's a mix of it's basically we have the workers that are funding these these entitlement programs. And so we have shrinking workforce and that's because of falling fertility rates and all these different dynamics, as well as an aging population. And so next year, we're going to reach what they call peak 65, which is when you become eligible for Social Security and Medicare and the United States. And we have

over 4.1 million Americans that are going to become eligible next year. It's going to be the largest retirement wave in U.S. history. And so the costs are going to really increase over the next four years, all these baby boomers finally become eligible for these programs. And at the same time, these projections, they don't take into account like any kind of war, any kind of financial crisis that would blow out the deficits even more. And then at the same time, the projections, they don't take into account like rising health care costs due to inflation. And so a lot of the projections have actually been lower or lower than what's actually

occurred because some of these changing rules around the healthcare system has actually increased the Medicare costs much, much more than they projected. And so each year, they project the insolvency actually a year earlier and earlier. So, like, if we think that they're going to keep spending and actually more than they project, then this could be like 2030, which is like five years away. And what I think about is, like, for me, I think about the pandemics, like five years away and how, like, it just feels, it kind of feels like it was yesterday. And so five years from now, it's going to come up fast. And the worry is that there's only two ways to really solve this.

So when when we get to that point, it's not like suddenly it's like bankrupt and there's no money, it's more like the benefits are going to get cut by 25% overnight. And so you've got older retirees who are dependent on Social Security. And so I just saw a fact that over 75% of retirement, retirees depend on their benefits for 50% of their income. And each one of them are cutting essentials because they feel like the cost of living doesn't keep up with their benefits. And so I have a lot of sympathy for these retirees because they're on fixed incomes, a lot of

them, they depend on these, and they're just suddenly going to get cut by 25%. And then on the flip side, you have the young people who have an affordability crisis, you know, asset prices have inflated. They feel like they can't get ahead. and then suddenly if they have to get taxed even more to pay into this program that they're not even going to receive the benefits from, you have this system where you have this dynamic

where if you cut the benefits for the old people, that's going to hurt them, that's one solution. Or if you raise the taxes for the young people, that's going to hurt them. And so you have this really terrible situation where it can lead to a lot of generational conflict. Totally. Right? And so that's like the foreturning.

It's all coming to a head. and there's not really a great solution on the table yet. And so they're the two options that you see that's either tax young people or cut benefits. Is there not an option where they will increase the age required to actually receive those payments? They could. Because that happened in the UK. Yeah, and that happened in France too. But that happened in France and there was riots on the street.

I don't mean they riot over anything. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But I actually think about that a lot because it's like the fiat system, steals time, which it's a terrible thing to have to just suddenly break the promise that they made to these people and you're paying into it your whole life than saying, like, actually, you got to do it two more years, right? And so that would take an act of Congress to do. And so they could do that. But the other thing they could do is try to print the difference. Yeah. Try to fill that hole.

And that's where it gets kind of worrisome because we're talking about to fill that hole would be about, I ran the numbers, you know, anywhere from, it's like another trillion or so on top of the fiscal deficit that they're already running. Crazy. Right. It could blow out the debt pretty large, but very large. And there's actually precedent for this.

So there's another smaller trust in the United States called the highway trust. And it helps fund like, you know, transportation and highways and things like that, infrastructure. And it went insolvent in 2022. And that's exactly what they did, was they basically did what they call a general transfer. Well, they just took the money from the tax receipts to try to plug the hole for another five years,

and it just added to the debt. And so now that's going to go unsolvent in 2027, and they're going to have to do the same thing. So kicking the can down the road. But that trust is only like $75 billion. Social Security is like $2.4 trillion. And so I'm worried because if they don't come up with any kind of real solutions going up to that,

that they might turn to that like they did before with the Highway Trust. And if they try to fill the difference, deficits will blow out. And then even the CBO or the CFRB, which is another organization that follows us closely, they did a projection of what that would happen if they did try to fill it. And they're trying to warn them, don't do this with Social Security like you did with Highway. Because if you do that, and interest rates rise because there's worries about the debt blowing out when they do that, it just goes parabolic in terms of the interest expense. And then you're in this situation where, I mean,

massive currency debasement will probably happen at that point. And so it all, it's all kind of coming to a head. The train is, nothing stops this train, but it's headed towards this. Cliff. It's a cliff. I want to say cliff, it's just like, it's an obstacle. Like it's like right there and everyone knows it's coming. But it's a long-term problem that they've kicked down the road over.

and over and over again, but finally, this is like the real time where it's going to come to a head and we have to do something about that. Yeah, and the problem is, like, taxing young people more or reducing the payments for the older people, like, both massively politically unpopular. Yeah. Like, pressing the button is a much more subtle way. Like, not everyone will be paying attention to that. People will still think they're getting their money, even though their cost of living might

be increasing to a degree where they'd have been better just to take a haircut on their payments. Yeah. And it's literally like a, it's kicking the can because, I mean, they'll fill the, fill the hole if they decide to do that for like another five years until it's the same problem again. And you could kind of see, you could kind of see the way the political system is and the gridlock and nobody wants to deal with this stuff. It's like a likely scenario in my mind. Like that'll turn to that. Or like a combination, right? They'll fill the gap. They'll maybe drop benefits a little bit, tax a little bit more. But it can just lead to a big increase in the debt and a lot more currency

basement. Yeah, I don't know if this is just because I'm in my little Bitcoin echo chamber, but I've not really heard anyone talking about this. I mean, Lynn has mentioned on the show, I think a couple of times over the past few years, but I've never heard, I've not really seen people talking about this on Twitter much. And it seems like maybe the biggest, like, upcoming macro event that we have. It's the biggest because everyone talks about the sustainability of the fiscal outlook and the debt problem. But the debt problem is Medicare and Social Security. Yeah. Like, if you don't touch that, and it's such a, like you said, is so politically charged.

And I think there's going to be, it's going to be the political topic over the next four or five. It has to be because if Stan Drucken-Miller gave a talk like three years ago in 2022 to USC to the kids there, there's a transcript of it. He gave this great speech. And if you read it, you can just through his words, like how terrified he is of this fiscal outlook and for the children and how we have to start thinking about it. And each year that we don't come up with any solutions,

it gets worse and worse and worse. And so this has been going out for a long time, but again, it's like now it's like five to seven years away. And we have to start thinking about it. So potential solutions, like I said, is cut benefits, raise taxes. There's a couple other ones. So Dr. Judy Shelton, she's like an economist.

she's a sound money advocate. She recently wrote a Wall Street Journal op-ed that talked about gold-back bonds. And so it's basically you would attach gold to like a treasury bond to add some like inflation protection. And then they would be probably really popular so the government will be able to issue those at a lower interest rate and maybe like a 10-year note.

Because you're sharing in the appreciation of the gold at the end of the bond. Yeah. Yeah, and you get gold at the end of the maturity. And so you got that inflation protection. So you could issue those more cheaply. And so that would be a way for the government to kind of finance itself in a way that's less expensive for them. Now, the problem with that is that's been done before.

And it was done during World War I. They were called Liberty Bonds. And there was a promise made in 20 years that they would pay out in gold. And so they were extremely popular. They raised a ton of money for the war effort. Americans were willing to give them the money because they had that inflation. It could be redeemed in gold in 20 years.

And what happened, though, was FDR banned gold ownership in 1933. And then there was a massive devaluation the next year. And then when these bondholders finally tried to redeem them, they said, well, it's illegal for you to own gold so you can have the cheap dollars instead. And then one of those Liberty bondholders said, like, wait, like, I just lost like 40,

40%, you just devalued the currency, and then you're not gonna give me gold like you promise. This is illegal. And so it took them to the Supreme Court. And the court said that, yes, this was unconstitutional, but we're not gonna give you the award. But you get the dollars. And so, you know, it shows that there's two things wrong

with the gold-back bonds. It's, you have to trust that the government actually has the gold to pay out, and you have to trust that they're actually gonna follow through on their promise. And so that brings me to a potential solution, which is like the Bitbonds. And like we should be very open-minded to every single solution out there because, like I said, this is a big problem.

And so if people are like, well, Bitcoin solves this, they should really keep an open mind because Bitbonds is like a Liberty bond. But obviously, a Bitcoin instead of the gold. And Bitcoin has outperformed gold over that time. So it probably even better inflation over like a 10-year, 20-year timeline. But it also is, it's like programmable money. Yeah. And so what you can do is like you can put it in an address and you know that they have the Bitcoin and they're not going to, you know, you know, it's a trust that they have in Fort Knox.

You can trust they have the Bitcoin. And then you can actually do something like the miniscripts and have it programmed so that it sweeps the Bitcoin unilaterally at the end of the maturity so that the government can't rug pull them like they did with the Liberty Bond. And so, and it's a way for they could raise money at cheaper interest rates. So bit bonds were brought up by Brian Estes and Perriand Boring and Eric Weiss originally. And you can do different structures with a bit bond, but theirs was like a 0% interest rate. So the government raising it at 0%. That's pretty good. Or like Andrew Hones and Matthew Pines wrote a long report on their structure of a bit bond.

It was a little bit different. But it actually, the way they structured where the government would actually get some of the Bitcoin upside itself. They were sharing interest. Yeah. Strategic Bitcoin Reserve. And then that's actually even a long-term solution to the debt problem because the government's acquiring Bitcoin in the strategic reserve. And then over time, it can be used to extinguish the debt.

And so that's a solution that they should consider for this big, big problem that's coming on the horizon. Yeah. And I mean, I really like the idea of BitBonds. And I think it makes potentially more sense doing it in the way the way the government are sharing in the upside because that gives them an incentive to do it. Yeah. I think it's still a massive stretch to actually get them to do something like that.

Yeah. Especially if you're then going like, and also you can do this minisccript thing. Yeah, it's going to, yeah, I know. I think they're going to, if they did this, they would take custody of it. And then you do have the risk of not actually getting paid out. True, true. I know. I know. But it's a good idea. They should be doing this. Yeah, no, it's a solution. But yeah, you're right. Like, it would have to be designed the right way for investor protection, basically.

But it would probably be the most oversubscribed bond the U.S. government has issued in a very long time. I would guess so. Every Bitcoin product seems to be the most popular thing. Yeah, whenever it happens, like the ETS. It's like Bitcoin, Bitcoin's very popular. Very popular. If you already self-custody of Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets, complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten. Well, Bitkey fixes that. Bitkey's a multi-sig hardware wallet built by the team behind Square and Cash App. It packs a cryptographic recovery system and built-in inheritance feature into an intuitive, easy-to-use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over. It's simple, secure self-custody without the stress, and time named Bitkey one of the best inventions of

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I've told you this before. So I want you to explain what you're doing. And my big question, like, so you're with Orange, set up in Brazil. Yeah. There's a lot of talk about like jurisdictional arbitrage with treasury companies and the fact that like meta planets in Japan, there's like different tax rules there. So there's an incentive to a meta planet if you're in Japan.

Yeah. I've always been skeptical of that apart from like the very edge cases. Only because like I live in Australia. I'm from the UK. And if I wanted to buy a treasury company, there's nothing stopping me buying strategy. Yeah. So like why does that jurisdictional arbitrage exist in your opinion? Well, it is like it might be easier for somebody in Australia versus Brazil to access the US equity markets first off.

And then, you know, retail investors, they do like to be supportive of their own country, like a company that's that's building in their own country. So there's a bit of like a nationality, a pride there. But there's also like institutional investors there. They have buckets of like they can only invest a certain amount into like foreign assets. it's a majority, they had to invest domestically, so the state pension funds, for instance. And so it's just a matter of like,

they can't just only invest in strategy or US equities. They have to allocate a significant amount of capital into their own country. And so even that could be like if we get, if Orange BTC gets included in the indices or different things in the Brazilian stock market, will benefit just from those flows. So yes, they, there's,

they could access some U.S. treasuries and around the globe, but still, there'll be a significant amount of capital that has to be invested locally, and that's where Orange BTC would benefit. Okay. And so you've got a little over 3,000 Bitcoin so far. 3,720, which is a lot of Bitcoin. How do you see this playing out in terms of, like, the strategy, they're almost in a different league to everyone else. They've got so much Bitcoin. The smaller treasury companies, do you think they have any shot of, like, catching strategy or is it now everyone's like playing for the sort of second tier of treasury company? Well, I think I think there's going to be a winner in every major capital market.

And even like if you look at Brazil, a lot of the biggest banks are like Brazilian banks. You know, it's hard to like break into that market and build a big business there. It kind of takes a local player who understands the regulations and has the connections and to build a big business there. And so strategy, I mean, strategies in a league of itself. I mean, they have more Bitcoin than all the other companies combined, all of the public companies combined. Probably times two.

Yeah. Like, you know, but 3,720 Bitcoin is large. We're the largest in Latin America by far, by far. And when you look at Latin America and compare it to the United States, in terms of like getting Bitcoin exposure through politics, publicly listed vehicles, there's really only like three options in all Latin America. It's orange BTC, there's an ETF, and there's Mayluse, which is the smaller Bitcoin Treasury on B3. And that's it. In the United States, there's like 11 ETFs, there's all the

public miners, there's coin bases, all these infrastructure plays. There's a lot of ways to get exposure, but not in Latin America. It's very underserved. And so that, that leads to to a lot of demand for any kind of Bitcoin-backed security, whether that's equity, whether that's fixed income products down the road or anything like that, it fits into these institutions' investment mandates. And so each capital market's really interesting because it has different quirks. Like Brazil, the pension funds and the insurance companies are restricted from owning spot Bitcoin. They cannot do it.

and they only have investment mandates for securities. So if they want any kind of Bitcoin exposure, they have to go to something like Orange BTC. And so even Saylor talks about this, 97% of institutional capital, almost $100 trillion have investment mandates for equity and bonds. Yeah, right? And that's trapped capital.

It's completely trapped. And, you know, in my opinion, every single portfolio is better with Bitcoin in it, whether it's real Bitcoin or whether that's Bitcoin exposure to these securities, no Bitcoin is a lot worse. I agree with that. Yeah. So, like, if we can improve accessibility and allow them to get exposure to it,

that benefits the pensioners, that benefits those insurance companies. We're just trying to improve access there. And so that's just a unique work of Brazil. And then there's other things like... Like there's a, it's a little bit more, there's some tax advantages. You know, there's a similar dynamic in the planet. In Brazil, spot Bitcoin's taxed. The capital gains is progressive.

The highest bracket's like 22 and a half percent. Domestic equities are flat at 15. So there's a little bit of a tax advantage from going to a domestic equity. And so these like little quirks are just more structural tailwinds for a Bitcoin back security that we ultimately benefit from. And so, you know, strategy, you know, they did the stream, which is out in Europe now, and they announced plans to expand to Canada, and they likely will go to other capital markets. But Brazil's probably pretty far down the list because it's a little bit more complex from a regulatory standpoint, being able to navigate that.

So it really does take like a local player and our team's full of Brazilian, you know, born and bred Brazilians who have significant experience, like our CFO ran a public company. He was a C-suite executive of a public company there for over a decade. Our chairman ran BD for Bridgewater in Latin America. And BlackRock, he stood up the alternative assets business. He has a significant experience in Latin America. Our CEO, Guy Gomez, grew up in Brazil, has a lot of contacts there. and has significant Bitcoin experience. And so I think it's the right team to actually execute this. And it's going to be different.

There's bigger low-hanging fruit, let's say, for strategy to attack other capital markets and expand in other capital markets before they think about coming down to Brazil. And so that, again, is like a significant opportunity for us because Latin America is a huge market and they really need Bitcoin. And so that's where we're going to step in. And, you know, it's all accretive to Bitcoin

when it comes down to it. So when you look at like the type of investors that are investing in Orange, is it retail or is it the institutional type clients? Well, we just listed like eight weeks ago. Okay. And so we're talking with all those institutional investors. Their investment process is longer.

It takes them a long time to actually pull the trigger. And there's a lot of education that needs to be done. And so our focus right now is educating the market about not just who Orange BTC is and what a Bitcoin Treasury model is, but also what Bitcoin is. And so we ran the first,

we did the first institutional-focused Bitcoin event in Brazil's history about a month ago. So we had a civil... How many people did you get? It was about three to 400 people. Nice. But really the representation from the largest banks, largest asset managers and family offices.

We were very, very happy with the turnout. And there's a lot of excitement from them. And I think they realize that Bitcoin's not going away. And they realize that they're maybe behind some of the United States. And they need to start moving into this asset class. And so the excitement from those big players in the market was really good to see. And so we're having those conversations. We're educating those institutional investors.

I think a lot of demand has been. retail from the start, but we expect the institutional investors to come in over time because everyone needs Bitcoin. And so what are you trading at compared to MNAV right now? We're like right around one. I don't have to look, but it's been fluctuating from a little bit under one to a little bit over one. So we're pretty much like at MNAF right now. Okay. And so do you think there's always going to be a gravity to one? Or do you think these multiples are going to expand again like when Bitcoin price starts doing better? Yeah. the way I think about it is, you know, all these, all these debts, so to speak, all these Bitcoin

Treasury companies, they got to like earn the premium. It comes down to like execution. And there's different ways, you know, taking on leverage, large corporations with really strong balance sheets can get better terms on debt. And if it's, if you take on the debt and has good terms, and then you buy the Bitcoin and the Bitcoin outperforms, you know, the, you know, the, currency that is denominated in, that's a creative share that'll increase Bitcoin per share. And so if you bet on the growth of Bitcoin per share, that should have some kind of premium. Because if ETF's just flat at one and it's just a passive vehicle and we're doing treasury operations and taking on good leverage to increase Bitcoin per share, that deserves some kind

of premium. The other thing is you can say buy Bitcoin at a discount. So for instance, when When the MNB dropped below one, we have share repurchase programs. And so we buy back our shares that is actually like buying Bitcoin at a discount and that it increases Bitcoin per share as well. And so if you can buy, acquire the Bitcoin at a discount, if you could take on leverage that increases Bitcoin per share, both of those reasons are probably why Bitcoin, or Bitcoin Treasury companies should trade at a premium to MNAV.

Now, how do you just like sustain that? And that comes down to like execution. The other thing you could do is like derivative strategies, for instance. That's another example of something that E.T.F doesn't do that could lead to more Bitcoin per share. And we have very talented traders that have been trading for 20, 25 years, trading Vols, trading derivatives, to help us not only lower our cost basis and acquire the Bitcoin in a way that's more efficient, but also generate some premium. And so allow us to acquire even more Bitcoin.

And so all those three things, even right there, probably reason why we should trade at a premium. And then there's another one, it's just optionality of having a large Bitcoin. So there's all kinds of things that we could do in the future. And one of the things that's been surprising, even after eight weeks of being live, is how many Bitcoin companies in Brazil have reached out to us about potential strategic partnerships,

as well as companies abroad who are looking to expand into Brazil who want to partner with somebody who's there, who, again, understands the market, understands the regulators, has relationships already to find out strategic partnerships to maybe launch some kind of Bitcoin financial services or products in the future. Now, it's early in our story, so we're listening, we're building relationships, but there's so many opportunities

to build out products and business lines. So that optionality of the future, it's just like you have to maybe, If you're positive on that, that should also create like a premium to the MNAV. And then it comes down to execution, right? And so that's another reason why there's risk with these treasury companies as well, which is why they should maybe trade at a discount sometimes. Because if the management team doesn't manage risk well and doesn't maybe takes on bad leverage, they should be penalized for that and like the maybe trade at a discount.

And so it works both ways. And so there's risks where it can trade a discount. But if they execute and they accumulate more Bitcoin per share in a way that's faster than any kind of individual and that's accretive to the shareholders, then they should probably trade it a premium. And so even even strategy right now, you know, they're tapping the ATM. They're doing all these things. But their MNAV is not going down to one. It's at like 1.15, 1.17. Now where that MNAV is like going to stay and that range, are we going to see like three, four, five, seven?

like I'm not sure. Like it was definitely like a speculative mania a little bit in earlier the summer where you saw these crazy MNAB expansions and premiums. I don't know if we'll see it get way up there. Like maybe if we see this like another wave like that. But it's probably should be above one if the team's executing well and accumulating Bitcoin with their treasury operations or other business lines.

I think we're just starting to see. where this treasury market's going to go. So you saw, like, Fong Lee, the CEO of Strategy, just talking on television last week, talking about large counterparties and banks and how they might consider partnering with them, you know, they're like lending Bitcoin out to these counterparties who are building out their own services

and they just need Bitcoin collateral. And so it's like, he who holds the Bitcoin makes the rules. It's like Max Kaiser. Yeah. It's the same thing. And so these are all opportunities that these treasury companies have just because they have large, like a lot of Bitcoin. That's something that comes down to.

Yeah. It's funny. I was, Fong was on the show a couple, like a month's two ago. Nice. And we were talking a little bit about like strategy obviously went through a really hard time. They went, they started trading at a big discount. I don't know, three or four years ago. Yeah.

And I wonder if it's almost like the market is waiting to see if people survive like a bare market in treasury companies before they get full. confidence to invest in them. And like paper Bitcoin summer is definitely over. Deep in paper Bitcoin winter, like a lot of these newer treasury companies are trading at like some at a very steep discount. Do you think it's kind of amount of time that people are traded in the market before the confidence is there that these teams are going to survive? They know how to do it. They know how to operate. And then we see like growth in multiples again. Yeah, I think when market conditions turn like how they have like in the last month, it's actually an opportunity for a, a treasury company and the management team to prove that they've been thoughtful about their capital

structure, about the type of debt they take in, about their ability to weather the storms. That's one thing that strategy has and maybe meta planet that others down is like more of a track record. And that just takes time to prove out, to prove to the market and to shareholders that you are a team that executes and manages risk appropriately. And so I think each treasury company should be analyzed on a case-by-case basis. And you really got to dig into the weeds of their cap structure, what kind of debt they've had, what is their plans, what is their vision,

what is their access to the capital markets. And each one should be just analyzed on its own terms. And it's a way for the best ones to kind of separate themselves from the pack. And so I actually see it as an opportunity. Even right now, as Bitcoin has gone down a downturn, like Orange BTC, actually continued to buy almost on a weekly basis. And so we're proud of that because even during

times of market stress, we're still accumulating Bitcoin for our shareholders. And we've been very thoughtful about how we structured the company and about the type of leverage. We have very clean balance sheet, low leverage ratio right now. And so we're built to last. This is a very long-term game. And so we have conviction in Bitcoin. We know that it's not going away. We have a very strong balance sheet full of the best reserve asset. And so, again, I think bear markets and cycles, it's an opportunity for the best treasury companies to really show that we're resilient and we're here to stay. How do you think about buying Bitcoin now? Because it feels like the business model from the very early strategy days have changed a little bit. Like it's not necessarily

just selling common stock to buy Bitcoin now. Like strategy have all the preferreds. What do you see the future of this being? Well, it's kind of like what I talked about before. I mean, so strategies farther along in that whole process. But finding ways to get leverage that is, that's in a way that's accretive to shareholders, but also is a line where it's a long duration liability with a long duration asset.

The preferred are so interesting because you never us to actually repay back the principal. And it's just more of a dividend obligation over time. So then you're just kind of managing that it's like a cash obligation over time. But it's interesting because they're still accumulating Bitcoin. You know, there's doing it through different products. I like what Jeff Walton said one time. It's like when you're fishing and you're looking for different fish and it's with different

bait and at different depths and it requires, you know, a little bit different strategy. What Sailor's doing is just creating these products that benefit or are attractive to different cohorts or investors. And so some like the fixed income, some are going to like the converts, some are going to like just the common equity because it's more volatile than the Bitcoin itself. And so it's all meant to just accumulate more Bitcoin onto the balance sheet, but he's just providing different financial products that are Bitcoin backed that are attracted to different types of investors. And so that's where we see ourselves going eventually. But then, like I said, there's also all this other opportunities to build out different Bitcoin financial services

in that market. So Brazil, it's just, it's wide open in terms of all types of businesses. I mean, and we're considering all of them. We have a history of building Bitcoin financial services. We have experience in there. And then our team is a lot of capital markets experience on the other side. So it's a mix of the treasury operations, education, educating the market about Bitcoin, as well as considering strategic partnerships with local players, as well as internationally, and considering different lines of business down the road. So we see us being an entire Bitcoin hub and just a leader in that entire region. So 3,700 Bitcoin is a lot of Bitcoin. There's a lot of treasury companies that cropped up over the last however many months,

a lot small than you guys. And a lot of those are now trading at a discount. Do you think the, like, you're a young company, so I'm sure you're not thinking about this right now, but do you think we're going to see a lot of acquisitions, a lot of consolidation in these treasury companies? I know obviously similar going through this at the moment. Like, do you think that's going to be a growing trend? Because essentially, if you're trying to buy cheap Bitcoin, you can buy Bitcoin at a discount

by doing that. Yeah. No, I think that's going to be a natural, like, maturation of this part of this ecosystem. It just makes sense. I mean, if you can buy discounted Bitcoin, then it's there. It's just a decision, right? Because when you buy Bitcoin, one of the cool things about it is the return on investment so short, meaning like you know exactly, you raise the money, you turn around, you bought Bitcoin,

you know if it was like accretive to shareholders almost immediately. If you do a acquisition, it's a little bit harder for the market to kind of digest it and understand it. like is the transaction going to go through? Is it accretive? They got to do some math. So it's just a little bit more complicated for the market to understand. Like, was this accretive? Like because the Bitcoin is the hurdle, right?

So you got to always think, well, well, they could have just turned on about Bitcoin. So is this even better? Is this a discount of Bitcoin given where our shares are trading versus their shares, if this is like an all equity transaction? So it just takes a little bit more thought for the market to understand it. And it takes time to understand if that was a quality move or not. You know, it moves it from like basically minutes because the return on investment just by Bitcoin is like minutes to maybe months, even to years to understand if the acquisition was a good decision.

And so all of those options are available. And I think if you see these companies really trade at distressed levels, then you will see more M&A activity. But it is a decision every single time you raise capital and don't buy business. Bitcoin is that's a decision you make. And so you got to be right with your due diligence and your analysts to make sure that that is the right decision. Because one of the things that makes me think of is if you're a strategy and you're looking at like all these other places that might have a good incentive to have a treasury company

in that country, the idea of going through building a business out there, putting a team in seems much harder than just waiting for something to trade under one XMNAV and trying to acquire it and then have something in that jurisdiction. If strategy of the huge fish in this pond, do you think they end up eating all the little fish in different markets and being a behemoth? Well, it's probably a better question for Fong or Sailor. I know they've said that they aren't interested in doing that,

and it's probably related to what I just said. Like, you know, it's just harder for the market to understand if it's an actual right decision or not. But maybe, maybe. I mean, for me, if, if you're able to build a great brand and have a great track record, you get a lot of Bitcoin on your balance sheet,

you're right. I mean, if strategy's looking into a market and they don't know, like I said, they don't know the players, they don't have the network, they don't have a relationship with the regulators or the local banks, it could be an easier decision for them to do it, especially if they trust the management team. You know, that's what it comes down to. If they feel like acquiring that company is better than them going in

and building it themselves, then maybe that's a decision they'll make. So I wouldn't really be surprised. I mean, maybe it's not even just strategy. I mean, now you have 21 coming on board, right? You're going to have ProCAP Financial coming on board now. They're finally going live. And so you have these transactions finally closing. We're about to get a couple major players in this market too.

And then there's the Bitcoin standard treasury company. You know, those- That's Adam Baxone. That's Adam Bachel. And I bring those ones up. Because they also have a lot of Bitcoin, you know, and they could be successful in their own strategies in terms of acquiring Bitcoin and maybe they consider expanding globally. And so there could be opportunities for acquisitions and that's the decision that they'll make.

I mean, you know, Orange BTC is just focused on our region, focused on Brazil and accelerating Bitcoin adoption there. And I think that's the right move for us. Like we're not thinking, like, we're just focused on our market right now and building a person's and a brand there. So Jack's recently been quite vocal about trying to, I think at least, he's trying to separate himself from this idea of like a pure play Bitcoin treasury company. And he's trying to push them as like a Bitcoin company that are trying to build services.

Is that something that you do at Orange or are you like just pure play on the treasury stuff? I mean, we were an education company. I mean, so we went public via reverse merger. We took over an education company. and there's a lot of infrastructure there, and we plan on repurposing it for Bitcoin education. So curriculum, courses, educational content. And so that's our focus right now.

But like I said, down the road, we've been inundated with already opportunities. We almost have to just focus on building out our treasury operations right now. And so right now, we're an education company that also has treasury operations that are implementing that sailor strategy, so to speak, that business model. But down the road, we see ourselves thinking through what is the best use of our time,

given our resources and the return on investment to go through whether that's, you know, I'm just throwing this out, like, whether that's lending, whether that's, you know, a credit or debit card that provides Bitcoin back. You know, the market is wide open. That's what I mean in Brazil. And so if an opportunity comes up

and we think it's attractive, for not only ourselves, but also for Bitcoin adoption, we'll probably consider it. And we have a experience as well with Bitcoin financial services like Jack. I don't know what Jack's going to do. I'm so curious to see what 21 is. I'm excited. The beauty of this is it's all good for Bitcoin and Bitcoiners.

And so Jack's successful and 21 successful and Michael's successful at strategy. And it all leads to demand. strengthens every single balance sheet that holds Bitcoin. And so I'm just excited to see what he means by that, because there's a little bit of uncertainty. But I want to bet against Jack. Or Apollo and it's going to be great. I'm excited to see more of these treasury companies pop up,

because I think it's all good for Bitcoin. I think some people are saying, well, we should focus on payments. We should focus on it. And to me, it's like if you're passionate that and that's what you want to focus on great like make bitcoin's payments better like that's awesome like and so treasury companies are like we're going to improve accessibility to bitcoin because there's large pools of capital that can't buy spot bitcoin but they can buy bitcoin back security that's good for bitcoin too and so i just see them as in parallel with one another and if you're

passionate about something a specific part of bitcoin then you should just focus your time and energy and build stuff around it because it's all going to come together and it's all going to help push Bitcoin adoption at the end of the day. Yeah, my left curve take is buying Bitcoin is kind of cool. Find Bitcoin is cool. Yeah. That's great. The big, one of the reasons I'm skeptical is like on the underlying business that these treasury companies have. Like I don't know if it matters. Like I don't know if that actually plays any part in the treasury companies, even like strategy. Like they have a cash flowing business that's pretty large, but I don't know if it matters.

I don't think anyone's buying either the common stock or the preferreds because of the underlying business. You mean the software business? Yeah. Well, I would say their business now is almost like a digital credit issuer. Or like a Bitcoin financing franchise is what Matt Levina Bloomberg called it. They're an issuer of Bitcoin back credit products. And that's a business. You know, that's a business in itself.

So they also have a software business. Yeah, does anyone care about the software business? Well, I think their investor base has changed dramatically since they've adopted Bitcoin and developed this strategy. I think it's become maybe less important over time. But at the same time, I think there's a large part of their business that's also just focused on that in terms of the people. And they're still building products. They're still making millions of dollars through that business line. maybe over time it might get less important as Bitcoin grows in adoption and this whole

business the Bitcoin part of their business grows. But I wouldn't say it's like it doesn't matter. You know, I think shareholders in general are more, their shareholders are more Bitcoin focused and they've benefited from that. But I think, I think it still matters, you know. I think at the end of the day, it's kind of complementary to their strategy. I would be a little bit surprised. I could be a little bit surprised. I could be proven completely wrong here if that part of the company still exists in like 10 years time. I imagine they just become a Bitcoin bank and that bits lost. Yeah, I mean, I could see that. I might agree with that. So Bitcoin Treasury companies are good for Bitcoin.

Yes. Tell me why they are not. No, I don't think they're bad for Bitcoin. I don't know if they're necessarily good for all the investors, but I think they're good for Bitcoin. They're buying more Bitcoin. That's cool. Well, why not? Why do you think they're not good for the investors, I guess? I guess maybe I'm specifically talking about retail investors. I think people should just be buying Bitcoin. Because I think MNAVs are going to be super volatile. I think there is probably a gravity to one.

So if there's a gravity to one, why not just own Bitcoin? And that gravity could be below one. I don't know. Yeah, no, you got to earn the premium. That's kind of what I said earlier. And it's also it's more volatile than Bitcoin. I mean, that's right. But some people want that.

Yeah, for sure. They want that upside. But that upside doesn't come without Dantide risk, too. Yeah, and I'm like, I'm nothing against anyone who wants to buy them. I'm trying to understand it because it's a divisive issue on X and stuff. And it's hard for me to understand because I always saw Bitcoin adoption happening this way, of like corporate adoption, having Bitcoin back credit products. Like, I always saw this happening.

And I think maybe people are a little upset because it's not like spot Bitcoin. But if you, nothing beats like if you want a, to own the asset, to remove counterparty risk, to have censorship resistance. If you're, if you want the capital efficiency, meaning like, you got to make cross-border payments. Like there's so many things that only Bitcoin spot Bitcoin could do. And it's not to say that that's not awesome. And like a good, it's like a foundational asset in every single portfolio should have spot Bitcoin, you know, in self-custody.

It's something I've been passionate about for a very long time. I just think some people also want amplified Bitcoin, as Michael says it, or simply it's in like a 401K. Like, I have a 401K and I own a Bitcoin ETF because I can't buy Bitcoin in that 401K. So that's what I mean. It's just the way that capital markets are structured, you just have these siloed pools of capital that can't buy it. And so now we're saying, hey, we're going to inject Bitcoin into there as well. So nothing replicates spot Bitcoin in self-custody.

It has unique value propositions, and I think everyone kind of benefits from that. That's not to mean that there's not usefulness for other Bitcoin-backed securities as well. No, I agree with that. And I think you're right. This was always going to happen as Bitcoin gets adopted. There's always going to be corporations buying Bitcoin doing these financial games with them. And I think that's cool. I'm not against it at all.

The issue I have is like, if you, you're selling spot Bitcoin to speculate on treasury companies, I think that might be a bad idea. You might get it right, but like spot Bitcoin is the sacred part of the bottom of this entire stack and like you should just be saving that. Like if it's a 401k, something that you can't access spot Bitcoin, like different story. And if you're like an institution that can't buy spot Bitcoin, different story. But I just, the idea of like Bitcoin is selling their Bitcoin to buy a treasury company is the part that I don't like. Yeah, I think it's about understanding the risk return tradeoffs because when you're by spot bitcoin the risk is like

protocol risk when it comes down to it like and when you buy a equity in a bitcoin treasure company you're moving it from protocol risk to to the management team and trust in the management team to execute on the strategy to accumulate bitcoin faster than you could yourself to increase bitcoin per share on your behalf and so you're moving that risk from the protocol which which I think we both agree is like, there's nothing more secure than the Bitcoin network right now. That's another thing of the fundamentals, like got hash rate above one Zeta hash.

I mean, it's amazing. That's one of the more bullish charts out there, I think. So you're moving the risk from the protocol risk to humans, and their ability to execute on the strategy. And so you got to understand the risk return you're taking and that you're moving it from the Bitcoin network to humans and their ability to execute. So just being clear about that risk, like doing due diligence, understanding what your own in both Bitcoin and a Bitcoin treasury company is so important before you make that decision.

Yeah, that's kind of, that's how I think about it. Yeah, and like the reason I would tell people not to like sell Bitcoin to buy a treasury company is the same reason I'd tell people not to sell Bitcoin now hoping to buy back lower. Like you want to protect your Bitcoin. But if you are in like a trap pool of capital, then having exposure to Bitcoin is better than almost anything else. So I just think it's like, what I don't, what I haven't enjoyed is like the retail fervor around the treasury companies because I think most people have probably not done very well on that. It's like people that have made loads of money on strategy. Then there's people have lost loads of money on strategy. And like selling Bitcoin to speculate on a treasury company, I think might end up hurting you.

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's offensive they were trying to trade. I mean, I think most people have made a great amount of money with the strategy. over a long period of time. I mean, it's still one of the best performing stocks of all the S&P 500. I think only Nvidia since they adopted Bitcoin

has outperformed it now. But we know that retail buys the top. Yeah, well, it doesn't matter. Again, it's about like position sizing, understand what you own, and you're right. It's just about education. And same thing with the Bitcoin. We say the same thing with Bitcoin, right?

Yeah. People, the one thing I agree with you a little bit, I get worried when people skip Bitcoin and don't understand Bitcoin and all the great things about it and then just go straight into these dots. And it's more of a trade for them. And they don't really care about what the Bitcoin strategy is. They don't really understand what they're even doing. They're just seeing a stock ticker going up.

That's where I get concerned. Because Bitcoin is such an awesome thing. It's such a cool technology. And there's so many great things about the asset to own. And they're really missing the point if they don't do that education to understand why strategies acquiring Bitcoin and why Bitcoin's cool and why it's important. And so I hope, I hope if anybody's listening to this who skip that, go back to the first principles and learn about Bitcoin and then make a decision from there. This is why the Bitcoin Treasury companies are accumulating Bitcoin because we love Bitcoin and we want to drive its adoption because we think it's the most important technology. of the 21st century and it's solving the biggest problem of the 21st century, which is currency

to basement and the inability to save. So that's what I would, that's the advice that I would give. Just you got to start with Bitcoin and then in the go from there. And maybe strategy was a bad example there, but like we're at David Bailey's conference, so I'm sorry, David, but look at all the people that invest in NACCA. Like, it can be brutal. And like, if you're selling Bitcoin thinking that thing's going to pump when it goes public, like, you're down a hell of a lot of money. And like, Sometimes just owning Bitcoin and playing the long game is probably the best option. Like I said, there's nothing that competes with Bitcoin in terms of like the risk-adjusted returns, I guess you could say, when you're comparing these things.

And, you know, I own Bitcoin because of the potential, obviously, but also all the risk I remove when I own it compared to all the other asset classes. And I think it's like an important differentiation to think about. because people see risk, they see volatility when they look at Bitcoin, but all I see is like removal of risk. Like you're removing counterparty risk, you're removing business risk,

sector risk, management risk. And that's really attractive. It's the same reason why a lot of people are on gold. And so nothing really competes with Bitcoin if you're long periods of time. But we know that it's very difficult to outperform Bitcoin. One way to outperform it would be to

get more Bitcoin and accumulate more Bitcoin. in a leverage Bitcoin play, and that's what Bitcoin Treasury companies are. And so you're taking on more risk, but you could potentially outperform Bitcoin even. So that's why people are attracted to it. Yeah. It's going to be an interesting couple of years,

see how this all plays out. Keep buying Bitcoin, Sam. We were going to do that. That's the plan. That's the plan. Educate and accumulate. That's the plan. Awesome.

Thank you for the time, man. It's been good. Yeah, thanks, man. Appreciate it.