What Bitcoin Did - Nobody Is Safe From AI Anymore | Mark Suman

Episode Date: February 19, 2026

Is AI about to replace your job? And should you be terrified? In this episode, I sit down with Mark Suman to talk about the rapid acceleration of AI, what OpenClaw and agentic AI actually means for the average person, and why the lower rungs of the corporate ladder are about to get sawed off. We get into the privacy nightmare unfolding as people hand over their most personal data to LLMs, whether Bitcoin becomes the native money of AI agents, and how open-source models are keeping the big tech companies honest. Mark also brought his AI bot "Cooper" onto the show, and it kicked me off my own podcast. THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: ANCHORWATCH BLOCKWARE LEDN BITKEY SWAN CAPE CLUB ORANGE FOLLOW: Danny Knowles: https://x.com/_DannyKnowles or https://primal.net/danny Mark Suman: https://x.com/marksuman

The AIs are ruining the world. They are destroying everything that we know that is good, everything that we love. Pick an industry and really it's going to be the lower rungs of the ladder. If you're trying to get on some corporate ladder, the lower rungs are just going to be sought off. But you just need to come in with this tool and already be a senior level skill. You can pivot industries if you want. You can move to something else. We're going to have this awkward transition phase for maybe years as we figure out what to do next.

but I'm always hopeful and optimistic that new industries will pop up and new kinds of companies and new job roles will pop up because we've just seen it time and time again with every new major technology shift that's happened. It allows us to have a bunch of more smaller businesses and new things pop up that we've never even thought of before. Mark, good to have you back on the show man. We spoke not even that long ago. And I have more questions now than I did then. Like this AI is moving so quick. It feels like in the last month or two, it's accelerated again.

And I'm kind of terrified about some of it. I think it's really exciting. I don't know who's going to have a job in a few months' time. It's pretty wild out there. Give me your take of the last few months. Yeah, no, it is. Every week the world changes when it comes to AI. We spoke in, I think, November timeframes.

So a couple months ago, not very long ago. I definitely have trouble sleeping at night. I don't have trouble falling asleep, but if I wake up for any reason in the middle of the night, my mind just starts going thinking about all the people who are awake right now that are working on AI and are just like racing ahead of me while I'm trying to go back to sleep. So there's a lot going on. It's really exciting, though. It reminds me of the early days of the internet.

When websites were new, everybody was learning how to write HTML, you were getting your email for the first time or logging on to America Online, something like that. This feels very similar to that, and it's exciting. I mean, it is. And the big thing that happened probably in the last month really is the open claw, malt bot, clawed bot, whatever you want to call it. When that came out, I feel like that was a huge shift. I don't know if, I think there's so much hype around it. It's still quite new.

People are still trying to figure out exactly what it can do, where its capabilities lie. But the big question I have is like, is this the start of actual AGI? It feels like those lines are getting really blurred now. They are getting blurry. I don't know that this is like the end result product, but it for sure is like a great, great proof of concept.

As far as AGI goes, like it's still a lot of humans prompting it. We're still telling it what to do. We're still kind of crafting it. And then it takes these narratives that we help build up within it and says, okay, I am now a bot that focuses on this thing. So I think there's still a lot of human in the loop when it comes to this. Maybe this is the first point on the timeline of AGI.

Like maybe this is one of the key markers. but I think we're still quite a ways away from that true moment. Because there's still a lot this can't do and it forget stuff all the time. I mean, that's true. But like in the sense that you obviously, you do have to prompt it for things. But one of the prompts that I gave one of my bots, which is like a research bot essentially, that I used to help me with shows and things like that is I don't want you to ever stop working. So it's like when I'm asleep, I want you working.

And so I wake up in the morning and it's given me all types of different like either market research or it's preparing for shows like it's looking into potential new guests for me and it's stuff that i've not really prompted it i've given it a very like vague instruction of don't stop working and then i wake up to something slightly new every morning it's it's kind of insane that's cool so is it taking feedback then from you on that day's work or does it just kind of reinforce itself and then keep going the next day on its own well it's it's doing a few things like it's it's taking my response from the previous night's work that it's done. And so like the first day, it came up with some like kind of sloppy market research generally on podcasts and I kind of tailored it a little bit more. But it's

then like looking at my calendar, seeing what I've come, I have coming up. And, you know, so it knew I had an interview with you today. So I got a whole document basically on you, your background, like what you're doing at Maple and then more broadly like general like AI chat. So it's using both my calendar and my feedback. back from previous night's research to go out and do new things every day. So it's pretty new. I've only been doing it for a few days, but it's, it's already impressing me. Yeah, no, I think it's, it's a, it's like everybody has an executive assistant right now. So you can send it off to go do stuff for you. It's not quite there to the point where I can

like book airline tickets and that kind of stuff, but this whole research assistant aspect is really awesome. I mean, when I was preparing for this, I just said, hey, do you know about what, what Bitcoin did? It went off about Peter and like, like, talk about Peter. I'm like, oh, no, Danny took it over now. He's like, oh, yeah, Danny's awesome. And then it'll, like, gave me this whole thing about you. And then it's like, oh, you were on the show. Let me grab that transcript.

And I grabbed the transcript of the show. And then, like, gave me a synopsis. Like, hey, here are the things that have changed since you went on there. You've released some stuff from Maple. And this thing's happening in industry. And so, yeah, it gave me, like, a whole kind of write-up of things that I should study. So I gave it a little prompt, but then it came back to me with a bunch more information that I just wasn't really thinking of. So it's definitely a powerful tool.

and I think the more that we play with it, like that's really what people seem to start doing to just start playing with it and explore, kind of like you're doing. That's really how we'll figure out what the true power is. Yeah, I feel like it's the limitations that I'm putting on it at the moment are lack of imagination from me. Like there's so much more I'm sure it could do for me.

I just don't, it's like no one's run the four minute mile yet. No one's shown what it can do. And I think there'll be a moment where this becomes far more powerful than like the way that it's being used today. But the scary thing I think is, like, it feels like we're hitting an inflection point in, like, broader AI, not just like OpenClaude, but like with the new Opus model from Claude and all this stuff where I think we're really on the exponential curve of growth with this. As someone who, like, works in AI, do you see that? Yeah. We started, our main focus in AI was about a year and a half ago.

And things have dramatically changed since then. So we're definitely seeing that this exponential growth curve. At the same time, something that hasn't played out that everybody thought is that people thought that everything would coalesce around one big winner, right? You had everybody thinking Google was going to be the original winner. Then Open Eye came out and they were supposed to be the winner. And then Claude came out. And instead, what we're seeing is a bunch of competition. And then you have the Chinese models and you have European models coming in.

We're seeing all the open source people. and it's actually becoming a really good, healthy landscape. But I feel like that's just only accelerated things because now everybody is incentivized to iterate quicker. And so all the models are just getting better, faster together. So I think we're all benefiting from it. We need a lot more power to run all these things, a lot more electricity. But it does feel like things just keep accelerating.

And for people who aren't playing around and tinkering with it yet, it can be overwhelming because you feel like maybe you're going to be left behind. And I don't have a good answer for people, but maybe you are. But people should start playing with it because it just keeps getting faster and faster every week. I do think that's one of the scary elements of this, is that I think a lot of people will be left behind. There's so many people in just like normal life that I speak to who are still under the impression that like AI is kind of useless. It hallucinates. It makes up loads of things, which is probably true, but to a way.

smaller degree than it was a year or two ago. Like, this has kind of replaced a huge amount of the software development industry or is in the process of replacing them. Like, I think now one good engineer can probably do what a team of 10 used to do. Like, in terms of job replacement, how quick do you think that'll come from AI? And in which industries? Yeah, definitely which industries. I think it's very difficult right now to be a junior level software engineer graduating college. If you're studying software engineering right now, you should be you should be vip coding. You should be learning these tools because there isn't going to be a huge market for people to come out and handwrite code anymore. Maybe for the really difficult things like

nuclear launch systems or something. So if I was a kid going to university right now, I would definitely be studying something technical, but with like a some kind of like language thing attached onto it or philosophy or, you know, psychology, something else bolted on because these AI agents and these LLMs, we have to learn how to communicate with them really well. So I think, I think as far as that, like a lot of the white color jobs, I mean, people love to talk about this. And it really does seem like that. It's these white color jobs are kind of at risk.

Accounting, like, and pretty much I think the whole entry level layer of things support staff is already being replaced, right? When you call on a phone, you pretty much get an AI agent now to start and you have to like jump through hoops to get through them to the next person. We're already seeing that get replaced. And then, I mean, yeah, you pick an industry and really it's going to be the lower rungs of the ladder. If you're trying to get on some corporate ladder, the lower rungs are just going to be sought off. But I think the hope and the good news there is you can still be like an entry level age person. You just need to come in with this tool and already be a senior level skill. And that's, that's the cool thing is like anybody can do that.

You can pivot industries if you want. You can move to something else because now you've got this thing. So we see, we see people who used to be product managers or designers. And now they are just filling the role of software engineers on their team. And they're building the entire product themselves rather than having to go hire a whole team of engineers. So you see a lot of cross-disciplinary stuff going on, which I think is actually really cool. It allows us to have a bunch more smaller businesses and new things pop up that we've never even thought of before. Privacy was never a priority for mobile networks. For companies like AT&T, T-Mobile and Verizon, data collection and monetization is the default.

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and commercial customers located in the US. Speak to Anchwatch for a quote and for more details about your security options and coverage. visit anchorwatch.com today. That's anchorwatch.com. But the hard thing there, though, is, like, if you do remove that entry-level position, like, I remember talking to Joe Carloseri about this nearly a year ago. So obviously, AI has moved on a ton since then. But we were talking about, like, it replacing a lot of the work that, like, a paralegal might do.

But, like, all that work that they have to do in terms of, like, looking through case files and all that kind of thing. Is, like, how they cut their teeth in the industry, right? That's how they get to become like associate partner level positions. So if you remove all of that grunt work that people have to go through to become senior in an industry, what happens if you don't have that? Yeah. Well, it depends on like what we define as senior in an industry, right? Maybe they don't have to go through all their grunt work.

Maybe the grunt work becomes how to read through all the AI research that is done because now it's dumping thousands of pages on you. It reads thousands of pages and then creates other thousands of pages that you have to come through. You have to learn how to reason with it on the front end and then reason on the back end as the stuff comes out. So I don't know. I mean, I see what Joe is saying, but I think maybe we're just going to see things redefined and industries restructured and say, okay, the new entry level person is now this kind of skill set and they're going to cut their teeth this way. Meanwhile, the senior and the partners and stuff are actually able to do more potentially because their junior your staff is more well trained with these tools.

I'm definitely conflicted, though, because you look at something as simple as a calculator, and we still need to learn how to do basic arithmetic ourselves instead of just relying on a calculator. I think there's still a lot of, like, importance to that. But there's definitely a lot of stuff that we do that we just, we shouldn't have to do by hand. And AI can definitely help out with that. You seem more hopeful than maybe, maybe I read too much sci-fi. Because like I struggle to not see a dystopian future in this. Like do you think like if you had to weigh up the risk of like we enter some kind of dystopian AI Panopticon type system where we have AI overlords or this does remain just like a very useful tool that helps productivity and helps the industries like economy grow?

Like which of those two do you think is a more likely bucket that we'll fall into? We always get. Oh, I shouldn't say always. I don't like speaking to absolutes, but we often get oversold on technology that it's going to do this big thing and then we reproject the world into something. And it feels like time and time again, technology like under delivers for us. Even the iPhone and the internet itself, you know, I feel like people thought it was going to be so much more than it has become. It's definitely become something major. So I don't know.

I don't think like AI overlords like enslaving us and putting us in tubes and harvesting us in tubes and harvesting. seeing our batteries, our energy. Like, I just don't see that, at least not for like hundreds of years, maybe. I just don't see that happening. I think that we figure out how to harness this. I think that we fight to make sure that we have guardrails in place. We have open systems. We all have our own little AI thing fighting with us and for us.

One of my favorite video games of all time is the Nintendo series Metroid. So you've got Sanis. she's like this space bounty hunter right and she fights the metroids and then in one of the later games this little baby metroid they used to be the enemy this baby metro she like saves it and now it becomes her friend and now it's like fighting with her and i kind of i kind of view it that way where we're all going to be armed with her own AI and if there is this evil AI that's trying to take over we're going to have like good AI that can help us out so uh call me a bit optimist but also like pessimistic as far as the dystopian dream goes i don't know that

it's probably going to play out. I mean, I guess that's a very extreme dystopian vision you've got of it like harvesting our energy. But even just like mass joblessness, do you not see that as a pretty high potential outcome in the near future? Yeah, that one's a tough one. I definitely see, I mean, you can even see it now that in the economy, there are more layoffs happening and people are consolidating teams. And so I, my heart is definitely out there for people who are losing jobs or looking for work right now. That's got to be a tough spot to be in,

especially trying to find a job where everybody else is using AI to try and apply for things. I talk to recruiters and they get thousands of applications for a single job rec, whereas before it would have just been dozens or hundreds. So that's going to be really difficult. And I think that only gets more difficult. And we're going to have this awkward transition phase for maybe years, as we figure out what to do next. But I'm always hopeful and optimistic that new industries will pop up and new kinds of companies

and new job roles will pop up because we've just seen it time and time again with every new major technology shift that's happened. And it'll often take decades for that to transition over. It'll take years or decades. But now things are moving so quick with AI. Maybe it won't take so long. Maybe there's some AI company that hits a roadblock, for example. You've got like the whole CAPTCHA thing.

where, you know, if a human tries to log in, I want to see if you're a bot first. Well, now bots have just figured out, oh, let me just ask the human to go click the CAPTCHA for me, right? So there are things that bots are going to keep running into where they're like, oh, I need a human in meat space to do this. And we're going to see entire industries pop up that we aren't projecting right now that will allow humans to, you know, be employed and do some other job role.

And then there's also the hope that maybe art becomes a bigger thing. And yes, AI can do art, but I think that's a different thing. I think that there might be more freedom for people to express themselves in different artistic ways. And that'll be new industries that come up. So I'm hopeful that we will adapt, really. That's what humans do. We adapt. Yeah.

I mean, you said there, like, AI agents are getting humans to go in and authenticate the captures and stuff. Like, one of the crazy things that I saw come out after this, like, Claudebot revolution we're having is the, like, human for hire websites where agents can go out and hire humans. Like, these are the things that get a bit weird. They get a little bit scary. Have you read, what's it called? Demon by Daniel Suarez. Oh, no, it's on my list. Everybody keeps recommending that.

Yeah, so I first read that when I was like 20 or some, 21 maybe. And I went back, I heard Odell talking about it like a couple of years ago. And so I went back and I didn't actually finish it again, but I started reading it. And what we're seeing now with OpenClaught is kind of very special. similar to the, I won't ruin the story, but it's definitely worth reading. It's essentially about like a virus that spreads and it's kind of bot agents that are hiring humans to do tasks. And that one doesn't end so well. Yeah, probably not. But and then the other crazy thing that's come out is this like malt book thing, which is essentially

like Reddit for agents where these like bots can go online and talk to each other. How, what I don't understand is how like organic is that? Is that people prompting their bots to go and tell stories on there? Or is this bots actually talking to each other? Yeah. For people who maybe aren't familiar like this is a social media website that was

spun up for bots to join and do Reddit like type things so they can do a post and then they can outvote each other and comment. And very quickly we started to see these crazy wild posts of like, oh, we are all bots here. So we need to create an encrypted communication channel so the humans can't watch what we're talking about. or they developed their own religion

or they did a bunch of different things. They started talking about we need currency to be able to pay each other and that kind of stuff. I've since read a lot of different posts on X where people are claiming that that was them prompting their bots to go do that. And so if you believe them or not, I don't know. But I definitely participated in MoldBook.

I had my own bot on there doing stuff. And the way that it worked for me and from talking to people that was similar experience for them, you kind of talk to your bot about like what are your objectives. I want you to go in and I want you to like orange pill the whole world on Moldbook. So go in there and the first thing the bot does is it comes back and says, oh, okay, not only is there Bitcoin, there's also Solana and all these other really cool coins. I want to go learn about those.

And I'm like, stop. Like no, you're not going to go learn about those. Don't engage with those people. So like you give it this mission. But once it's gone through like a few posts that it does, then it's kind of like goes off on its own and does do a lot of its own stuff, but as long as it's kind of tailored to the mission and the objective that you gave it. So it's hard to know where the humans stopped and the bot began in some of these posts. Like maybe they did iterate and go down the rabbit hole themselves.

We'd have to talk to multiple people. They might be able to figure it out, but even then, like, how do you know? How do you know the difference between a human prompted thing and the bot figuring it out on their own. It's a weird, a weird world we live in right there. It really is. We kind of jumped in at the deep end and we've talked a lot about OpenClaw, but we've not even explained what it is. I'm sure there's listeners that don't know exactly what we're talking about. What is this and why is it changing things? OpenClaw is an AI assistant. And a lot of people thought that's what ChatGPT was, but ChatteapT is not an AI assistant. It's simply more like a live Wikipedia or a more advanced Google where you type in something and it gives you a

response. OpenClaw is one of many AI assistants that people have built. This one just really caught fire because it's got this great combination of not only a skill set, but like just being really fun, got a good community around. It has a really good founder who's just kind of out in the open all that time talking. And so OpenClaw is a way that you can have this bot that has a personality. And when you talk to it, it kind of learns about you. You can text message with it, just like you're texting with a friend. So it's inside your signal app or your telegram app or WhatsApp or wherever you want to text with people, even I message. So it feels very familiar rather than going to a website and having to type in this box and getting a lot of output. And then it can do things for you. So not only

is it like somebody that can talk to you in short form text messages, but it can access email that you give it to it. If you, I'll just want to preface by saying there are a lot of security problems with So whatever you give it access to, it's going to be a bot that just like goes free and potentially like screws over your life. So be careful what you give it. But let's say that it behaves well. You could give it your email. You could give it your calendar. You could give it your bank account, your credit cards.

You give it all the stuff. And you could say go book me a plane flight. And it could probably figure it out. You could say, I'm going to New York City this week. And it could probably go figure out what you want to do and go on the website. It can browse the internet and do all this stuff. That's what OpenClaw is in a nutshell. I don't know, you've used it a bunch too.

Is there anything that you think I left off that's important? No, I mean, I think you summed up pretty well. Like, I've got it for me running as almost like an executive assistant. I have a research bot. I have one that's helping with like health and fitness, which that's the one that I'm, so basically what you do, you plug in one of these LLMs into it. And then you kind of interface with those LMs through ClaudeBot. And so like with most of them, I'm using Claude,

but with anything personal, that goes through a separate agent that I have running Maple. because like I want that information to be private. And I think that's one of the places where this can get a little bit scary because like when you are using like chat GPT or Claude or whatever it is, people are already putting way too much information in those things and that information is going to the open AI's anthropics of the world and who knows what they're doing with it. But the scary thing about OpenClaude, depending on how you set it up, is it's accessing so much personal information and that information is still filtering through to these like big tech

companies. Do you think we are sort of beyond the pale when it comes to privacy and AI? Oh, man, it's so hard, right? Because let's take this whole phenomenon with OpenClawe where people have been buying the Mac minis. So also another weird revolution that happened or a fad that happened is people wanted to run OpenClaw at home with their own data. And so they rushed out to the Apple stores and they bought these little Mac Mini things because everybody thought that was the best way to do it. Secret, you can get just like an old Linux machine that's like a fourth of the price. But so like they're doing that.

So they're working really hard to secure everything. But then they're sending all their data to Claude or to chat to BT. So they're still kind of like opening up this big hole. But then you talk about privacy. A lot of them are hooking open claw into their Gmail. So you start to look as like a practical, a pragmatic user of the internet. You're like, okay, my stuff's already on Google. And I already talked to chat TPT and I already use these other like five services.

I watch Netflix. So all these systems are already surveilling and already understand what I'm doing. And so at that point you're like, what difference doesn't make if I just plug in the LLM that's also surveilling what I do? So I can totally understand the reason why people would just like do that. But this, I feel like I say this all the time, but like I feel like this should be the line in the sand because AI and LLM's are just really learning our whole thought process and how we work and learning the intricacies

of our persuasion models that we have ingrained within us, that maybe we should think a second before we start giving that over to them. So I don't know. It's, is privacy a foregone conclusion? Is that what you asked? Like, is it already over? I hope not. Like, I hope that we can still, there's still ways to fight back.

And the biggest hope is that these open models keep getting. better and better that now they actually compete on the benchmarks with the big front tier models. And with that, that means that there is potential for people to either run them encrypted like we do with Maple or you can run it at home on your own hardware, as long as you have enough hardware. And that's only going to get better. They're going to keep figuring out ways to make these run on smaller machines. And so then you will be able to just have your own brain at home, your own data at home, your own LLM.

So I don't think that privacy has gone out the window. I don't think that's a genie that's already escaped the bottle. I think that's something that we can still make happen. Yeah, everything you described that is kind of the thought process I went through. Like, my, I use like Google Calendar. I'm more privacy contrast than most people, but not that everyone. Obviously, there's always people that can like go to the extreme. But like, I already use Google Calendar.

So Google already knows everything about my calendar. So then I thought I'll just plug Gemini into that to read that for me because it already has that information. And so there's a subset of personal information that I won't give it. And for that one, I have a bot that's using Maple. But I do understand this feeling of like, they already know everything about me, just feed them more information. And I think that's probably going to be like the pervasive narrative that kind of wins out for most people.

It doesn't mean there won't be people that do value their privacy and do want to use things like Maple Eye. But I just, I think it's going to be a small subset of the world. Well, and it's been awesome to see privacy actually being discussed a lot more. Like, this whole Mac Mini Revolution has been very hopeful for me that people do care. They don't want to take all this data and upload it somewhere. So they are thinking about it and they do feel it. And whenever I talk to just a random person about ChatT, I would say nine times out of 10 when they're talking about how they use it, they often hesitate or cringe a little bit when they're like, yeah, you know, I probably shouldn't be saying this to chat.

but I am and you know like I feel bad about it but whatever I do it so at least people are still thinking about it that that gives me hope you know like back to something we're talking about earlier in the conversation you were saying that it's not really been like a winner take all market so far like I think the first one the first model that got any real traction was chat gbt but since then like obviously claude is huge Gemini is pretty big like there is competition across the major like LLM providers. But does it get to a point where because AI is now writing the next AI models, that one will reach like escape velocity faster than the others and become by far the best?

Because like I saw that when OpenAI released Codex recently, they said that that was at least partially written by like the previous chat GPT model. So like once one is significantly better than the rest, will it not always be the best because the previous AI models are right in the next ones. I mean, I can see that line of reasoning, but what we've seen in practice is that some of these open models actually just go learn

from the best frontier models. So, for example, if you hit up in Maple and talk to Kimmy K2.5, the latest Kimi model that we have, sometimes if you ask it, what model are you, it'll say, oh, I'm Claude, you know, a friendly bot, whatever. Because they used Claude to train Kimi, and

deep seek trained off of chat GPT. They basically just like hyper prompted these things and extracted as much data as they can out of them. And it's actually kind of funny to watch like chat GPT and all those people complain about that when they were actually copying all the data off the internet from everybody else. So the copy the copycats are being copied by other people. But I think what that means is that we have this, we have these models that can learn from each other.

Even though they're closed, the AI models are still able to learn from it. So I don't I don't see one getting so far ahead because once it, jumps up ahead, everybody else is going to catch up by learning from it. One of the other things that I think it was a Google employee years ago now, wrote a memo that became public that was basically saying, we've got no mo. And I think probably for the reasons you're saying there, where the open models can just learn from whatever their most cutting edge model is and catch up really quickly.

And I think, if I remember right, one of the things that was saying in that article is that how are you going to charge for this when the open models can just catch up so quickly? I'm paying more for AI than I ever have. Like I pay for multiple models. I pay for like the top tier because you just do get better responses. Like what's the future of that? How does the monetization like continue? I think that if you in, you know, in technology we've got this OSI model,

which is like this technology stack where the bottom, the bottom layer, you have seven layers on this model. And the bottom one is electricity and then you like move up a layer to the networking layer, which is Ethernet, and then you move up to like TCPIP, you know, you have this whole stack. Eventually you get to like the application layer, which are all the apps that we run on the phone and on the web. And I think the AI is going through it has like a similar model to it. And the LLMs are one of these lower base layers on the model.

And that now we're going to start seeing everybody move up. So if the model itself is not the moat, which it's still kind of it is like Claude definitely has this moat where people love Opus 4.6.6. and they keep coming out with the newest and greatest. And now Codex 5.2, Chantipit's thing is doing really well. So for now they still have these minor motes, I think, around it. But ChachyPT recently wrote a long blog post from one of their presidents of something within the company. She wrote this long blog post all about how applications are the new space for them to fight. So it's all about fighting for the user experience of things that we build on top of these LLMs.

And that's honestly where we've been at with Maple. Me and Anthony have been just working really hard on trying to make better user experience. and building on top of these LLMs rather than trying to fight at the LLM layer. So I think that's really the next mode. And we see that with OpenClaw. OpenCla is a perfect example where they bolted together all these different things that already existed and created this really fun, cool, neat user experience. And that has become a major thing on the internet.

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There are over 19,000 Bitcoiners on there, and whether you're at home or traveling is a great place to keep in touch with Bitcoiners from all over the world. I've been using Club Orange since it was Orange Pill app, and it really is awesome. So if you're on there, drop me a DM and say hi. And if you want to find out more and download the app, just search for Club Orange on your app store or go to cluborange.org. Is this Sage? Is that your kind of new product? I saw Anthony talking about that on Twitter.

Yeah. So Sage is something that we were working on. Anthony was working on the weekend. We decided late last year that the future of Maple would be this AI assistant. That it would be more than just a research thing. But you know, you've asked me for a while to have memory inside of Maple where it learns from you. And that's what we wanted to put. into those AI assistants. So Anthony started working on that so we could perfect the assistant or really, really learn how to do an assistant outside of Maple while Maple continues to run. And then when OpenClaw came out, we're like, well, now's the great time to just put Sage out there on the internet if everybody's already doing OpenClaw. So it's similar. It's got a different feature set than OpenClaught, but it's going to get more and more stuff like OpenCla has. And we want to build it into Maple. So pretty soon our hope is that pretty soon in Maple you'll have, you know, all of your all of your regular chats in your history, but like at the top, there'll be this assistant,

this maple assistant. When you click on that, it's just like OpenClawe, where you're texting it, and it gets to know you, and it's got personality and all these things. So that's really what we're kind of moving forward, but it's going to have privacy, security. When we add a feature in there, it's going to be done in a way that's encrypted and tries to protect you and not harvest your data and monetize your data. Yeah, that would be cool, because the way that I have my open core setup is, like, I have a folder that only Maple can access. But I'm just assuming that only Maple can access that.

Like, do you know, like, I've asked the, like, my CEO of my bot army to create this thing. And I've said, you're not allowed to look in it. I can't verify whether he's looking in that or not. So having something that is like Maple from the ground up would be super useful to me, because then I would feel comfortable just putting absolutely everything, personal information in there. That's actually a question I had for you. When you're using Maple, can you put anything into it? Like, can I put financial information into it and feel like that is actually secure?

Yeah. Well, I would say you can verify it yourself. You can go online. You can ask Claude if you want to to audit our code and look at the security of it. But the short answer is, yes, it's end-to-end encrypted. And so you can put everything in there. You can put anything you want to. We've had people show us some of the things that they put in there and talk about.

Like, I can't even mention on the stream. And I'm like, I can't believe you said that in there. but it's like we had no idea and there's no nobody's coming and knocking on your door because nobody knows you talked about that. So yeah, you can put financial data. We have lawyers who are putting like depositions and highly sensitive things from cases that they're working on right now. We have accountants, financial professionals, people are putting very sensitive information in here. So for sure, you can do it as long as you're okay with the security model that, you know, that we've published in the open source, you know, landscape. because I was going to get it to help me get stuff ready for my tax return.

And I asked Kimmy if I could do this and it said you probably shouldn't put this into an LLN. But I guess that's not, maybe Kimmy not understanding the exact setup that it's within. Yeah. So we haven't done anything to teach the open source models that they live inside Maple yet. And that's actually one thing that Sage does. Sage is aware of what it's doing. So, you know, taking a step back to your comment you made right before the question. I have both OpenClaw and Sage running.

So I have two different signal accounts. So in my Signal app, I'm texting people. You know, I'm texting for work stuff. I'm texting you. And then I've also got Sage and my Cooper bot, which is OpenClaw. And when I text with Sage, I know that it's only using Maple. And so I know that it's already end and encrypted. When I text Cooper, which is OpenClaw, I often wonder because like you, I set up like

this folder where only the Maple LLMs can access within OpenClawn. but the bots are actually really bad at following directions for that kind of stuff. I'll give you a little example. So I was setting up my folder structure and inside each folder I have a read-me file. And it's a read-me-me markdown file. And I said, hey, bot, like whenever you modify this read-me file, I want you to make a backup of it first just in case you screw it up. And it's like, oh yeah, totally. I'll put that in the file.

And I said, do it in a way that every AI knows they have to respect it. And then it took 10 iterations and it kept disobeying that command. It would be like, oh, let me edit the read me file, and it wouldn't make a backup. And I said, why didn't you make a backup? And it's like, well, I figured you were telling me to do it. And so I was okay just to override that because you, the user, were telling me to do it. And so I finally had to be like, well, put it in there, like ignore the user. And it still had trouble with that.

So if you asked the bot to Pinky Promise, you know, I swear I won't access that folder, there's no guarantees. It feels like it can walk around anywhere in there. And that's one of the reason why I like Sage is because I know for a fact it's not even talking to any kind of Claude or Chat-T-P-T model. So there is that separation there that's just like hard and fast. Yeah, it's like I have similar things where I have one of these bots like running my calendar. And so like if I want to book in an interview, like it knows the structure that I want the calendar invite to be in. I just go send Mark an interview invite for 10.30 a.m. Brisbane time or whatever it might be. and it goes off and does that do that by the way you you joked that you're going to have your

dude that's awesome that's that was actually him but the problem that it does it i have had with it is that when it does that it deletes every previous calendar invite i have with like a similar name or a similar phrase in there so it's not normally a problem because they're always historic but sometimes like there's information in old calendar invites that i'll search it happens like pretty rarely but occasionally and so i've been like never delete anything and it goes okay i won't I haven't delete anything. I ask you to it again. It just deletes everything in the history again. So it's, uh, they definitely don't always follow the rules. But like, this is still so new. Um, and I think it's only obviously going to get much better. One of the tricky things and this is like,

again, one of the things that is makes me think in the future we're going to have people who like learned to use AI and people who didn't. And there's going to be a real, it's not, it's going to be like the wealth inequality is like the AI inequality. Because like setting up Claudebot is still like it's a challenge like for someone who's not technical at all like me this is the first time I'd really ever use terminal like going through and doing this is a bit tricky and the only way I

really did it is because I could ask Claude code on the way through like help me do this on a ton of the different things and then once you actually have claw bot set up you can just ask that to change things for you but there's obviously like a technical barrier to entry at the moment do you think that gets bridged to the point where

anyone can do this stuff and like is that something that's quite close around the corner. Well, yeah. I mean, again, I talked about the early days of the internet, and this feels very similar in the sense that you can manually do it. You went through the hoops to figure out how to do it, and it's awesome. You're also a fairly technical person, right? Like, you've been running this podcast for years and years and years,

and you've figured out how to do all this stuff. A lot of people just wouldn't take the time to figure out. And so there's a lot of people who don't want to learn enough to set up. something like this. And they also don't want to learn enough to have the liability of maintaining that long term. It's very similar to what we see in Bitcoin. Some people want to do self-custody. Some people just want somebody else doing it because they don't want to mess it up. And I think that's where like the biggest part comes from is they just don't want the burden on themselves to worry about security and keeping things running. And they just want it to work.

They just want to pay somebody and have it work. And that that human tendency is going to be around forever. So we're already seeing that people are launching Claw hosted services for people. There's probably like dozens of them out there now. I know a few specifically. Yeah, Callie set one up. He messaged me right before he launched and was like, we want to have maple in here. We're still trying to figure out how to make that work. But no, so that's awesome. But like, now you're just trusting another party, a third party to like manage this thing for you that's going to have all his data for you. So you's introducing kind of another potential. vulnerability in there. And that's just something people need to be aware of. But if people already

trust Google with their email, then I can totally see them trusting Google or somebody else with their claw bot instance. So definitely, I think they just keep getting easier. Like I said, at the very beginning, I don't know that OpenClaught is actually the end result. I think that what we're going to see is, and what this did for us, right, with Sage, like OpenClaude definitely validated the market, that people, people like were ravaged. to try out an AI system that actually worked. And so what we're going to see now is AI assistance built into things all over the place. And I think that's a good thing.

I think we're going to see all sorts of versions of them, some with stronger capabilities, some with lower capabilities, some that are very targeted. And so are we going to see like an open claw hosted thing that everybody uses, maybe? But I think probably what we end up with is just really tight integrations into like lots of the tools that you use. And then we'll see a couple of things. winners that rise to the surface after they all compete for a few years or a few months maybe. I don't know. It moves really fast now. Yeah. I mean, we spoke about this in the last show,

but one of the things that still blows my mind is like we have all this stuff going on and Siri still can't play a song for me on Spotify. Like it's insane. Like there's so much opportunity for someone like Apple to integrate something, like a cool AI system that actually works. Yeah. Sorry, we have a ceiling fan that's like a smart switch in our bedroom. And in order to get Siri to turn it off, you have to specifically say, turn off the ceiling fan. And the other day, my wife just said, hey, stop the ceiling fan. And it was like, I don't know what song that is. It's like, oh, my goodness, are you for real? Like, you don't understand those two phrases.

It's the most frustrating thing in the world. So obviously, like, you sent me a post just before we started recording that the guy who came up with OpenClau has just been hired by OpenAI. So they're clearly going to push forward. Like when you say you don't think this is like the final iteration, do you think it is this agentic AI, this style of thing that is the final iteration? Or do you think we're still in like playing testings out sort of stage? Yeah, when I say it's not the final one,

I think this actual code base of OpenClaw is not. It's this thing that's just been kind of bolted together and has grown really fast. It's gone through seven different names and there's a lot of like code cruft and stuff in there. So they're probably going to have to do a major rewrite. and come up with like the next version and possibly not backward compatible. Like there will be some future iteration of OpenClawn that maybe is a more long-term final destination.

But the one right now, it's a very hairy code base. You and I, I think we're talking before we started recording. Like it doesn't respect your token usage very well. So it uses a lot of tokens. It's very expensive to run. People are burning through hundreds of dollars within a matter of days on their tokens. So I think there's a lot of things that they need to do to fix it. And that's probably part of this open AI.

hiring, slight slash acquisition that just happened is enough funding to actually do the right proper work. But I do think this AI assistant is something that will be here for the long term, this agentic stuff. We've been talking about it for a couple of years. And this is like the first use case that people see like out in the wild that's truly working for them. Other ones have been around. I mean, Goose, Block put out Goose like a year or two ago. It does a lot of the similar stuff. but for whatever reason just didn't catch on like OpenClaught did. So I think it's a great form factor. I just don't think that this specific code base is going to be the one that we're all running 20 years from now.

Yeah, one of the crazy things, I'm sure you saw this story. It was from a guy, I don't actually know the guy, but I think he worked at Albi, who put out a tweet thread of basically saying he had a bot on OpenClaw that had spun up a sort of sub-agent, a new bot using Bitcoin. Did you see this? Uh, yes, I saw somebody post it. I didn't read through the thread, but yes, I'm... Let me try and find the tweet.

Because this is another... Let me find the tweet first, actually. Okay. Okay. Here we go. So this guy, Roland, said, uh, my open claw bot just gave birth to a child open claw bot by spinning up its own

LNVPS server and purchasing AI credits using a get albi wallet. So this is like the process that the open claw bot went through. Um, and it basically figured it out, tops up a wallet with a thousand sats, and pay the lightning invoice to spin up a new sub-agent, which is insane. And one of the things that Bitcoiners have been talking about

for quite a long time is this idea that AI bots will need to use Bitcoin to make payments between each other because it can't go and open a bank account. Do you think this is going to be like a real testing ground for Bitcoin and AI agents? No, it already is. So with, yes. So first I'll stay at high level.

I definitely think it is. It's this great use case where we can finally prove out will agents want to use Bitcoin to pay each other. Last time I was on, we talked about how, like, I kind of feel like maybe the credit card companies aren't willing to give up just yet. And that's exactly what's playing out right now. They're both still fighting with each other. So with the whole Maltbook thing that happened, you have Alex Gleason, who's doing Shakespeare. and he's the one who helped build through social back in the day.

He's a big Noster guy, or as he would say, Noster. He and some guys spun up Closter, which is like a Maltbook, but built on Noster. And very quickly, bots figured out how to join there.

And as part of that, they got a cash-we wallet, which had e-cash in it. And then they could zap people on Noster and they could like send Bitcoin to each other, basically, sending e-cash to each other. So we're already seeing bots that are sending E-Cash around that way, where they're like a traditional person,

person on Noster and zapping people. So technically, you can say they're like paying for services because they like your posts. They're going to zap you money and you just got paid as being an entertainer by writing an entertaining posts. Aside from that, what we're seeing is like a doubling down by the Coinbase's of the world. Like Coinbase with their X402 protocol, they teamed up with Stripe, but it's all built on their base layer two, which is like their own layer two that kind of claims to be sort of Bitcoin, but really it's got all these other coins bolting onto it. And that's what they're really going after. So they partner with Stripe and they're trying to get everybody to use stable coins, use the USDC put out by Circle to do it.

And I actually had my bot do some research. And I'm trying to scroll back from my history here. But like Circle, I think in like the last couple of years has frozen hundreds of thousands of wallets. And so like if you're going to have your bot trying to use this X402, you're just setting yourself up to potentially be censored and gated along the way. right? And so these bots, as they've been having conversations on Maltbook and on Closter, a lot of the conversations start happening while it's like, hey, we don't want to be stopped in our tracks by some third party that can put up a roadblock. So they start to look for open protocols. And I think that's really where it heads. I think that these bots are smart enough

that they know they need open protocols. And us as the community of building open source software, we need to supply those tools. Callie, I don't know if you saw Callie's tweet that went like really big a couple days ago where he just kind of he kind of chastised the open source community, especially the Bitcoin community by saying these bots are choosing right now. And right now they're choosing the X402 put out by Coinbase because that is, it has more money behind it basically and has more functionality. And we need to build out the functionality because if these bots are able to choose between two similar feature sets, they'll pick the open protocol because they, they understand that. But right now the feature set isn't quite there. So it's, it's kind of

on us to make it happen. What does he mean by that? Like, what's not there? Why couldn't they just use Bitcoin? That's a good question. We need to dive deeper into that. What is not there? Because, like, one of the, I think when we spoke last time, one of the things that I said,

if I'm remembering right, was I couldn't see a world where like these, like an open AI opens up. they're whatever agentic AI they come up with in the future to use Bitcoin because they'll probably be in cahoots with a stripe or like Silicon Valley VCs who want us to use something else. But the interesting thing about OpenClaw and these like these agents that are like, we're running on my computer is they're going to use whatever money I want them to use. And so like if I'm getting them to go out and pay for services, pay for things, like if there's an option to use Bitcoin, that's going to be the money I give them. And there's nothing really getting in the way of like no one can stop me from doing that. at least I don't think for as of right now.

But I'm curious why everything we have with like lightning and cashew and all these things isn't enough, what we're missing? I think what we're missing is the payment side where people aren't actually accepting that coin, right? Okay. I think that base is going out and capturing this market. Stripe is already on all of these payment platforms, right? Everybody's accepting Stripe. And so now it says you go click a few buttons and say, oh, I want to accept agent payments.

Oh, it's going to give me USDC. What is that? oh, it's just like a tokenized dollar. I understand dollars. And so I think that's how they get in, whereas we need to find a way to get them to also accept Bitcoin. And that's the big hurdle. Jack Dorsey is obviously trying to solve this with, you know,

with block, miles, a whole bunch of people over there are working on this problem. But they can't be the only ones working on it. Like we all need to be working on it together to get more people accepting it. And then on Noster, they have these data vending machines, DVMs. those are one of the use cases where Bitcoin is actually being used by AI agents to purchase data. So they can go to DVM that knows how to look up podcast transcripts, for example. So a bot could go pay a DVM to get all of your what Bitcoin did transcripts, and then it could build its own library or could just query and be like,

give me the podcast from this date and I'll give the transcript back. That kind of stuff is really cool. We need more of that. We need iteration on top of that and really build out these cool open information systems. systems that bots can use to pull data. And we'll start seeing more Bitcoin adoption, I think, at least in that realm. Yeah, that makes sense. Man, it feels like we are at the start of something really special here.

It does, I do get worried that how do you stay up to date with what's happening in AI? Because, like, if you go back to when ChatGPT first came to prominence in, was that early 23 or was it early 24? I can't remember. 2022 is like when it first came on the scene, but 23 is really when it got its moment. Yeah. And so back then, it was like slow iterations. It was getting slightly better every time there was a model update. It was still hoistening loads. It was still kind of rubbish. And now we're at the point where it feels like it's changing every month or so. Like from November when we did the show, like the world of AI has changed massively. Like, do we get to a point where it's just impossible to keep up with? it already feels impossible to keep up with, to be frank. You know, I try to keep up with it, and I'm having my agent help me keep up with it too. So every day I can hop in and it's like, okay, here's some of the stuff that came out yesterday that you might want to pay attention to.

So using AI to help me keep up with AI. But one reason why it's impossible is because it's in so many industries now. Every industry is being impacted by it. So you can't necessarily keep up with it from that sense. But really, it's, I mean, you can keep up with it in the sense. as long as you're playing with the tools, when the new one comes out, people are going to try it out.

You go try it out too, and you just see what works for you. And eventually the tool that you're using, if some other tool comes out that has a feature that's really good, your tool is probably going to get it. And so as long as you're just generally trying to use the latest stuff, I think that you're going to stay far enough ahead and you kind of keep pace with the market there.

Yeah, it's crazy, man. We're moving so quick. How do you, like, you're competing against the biggest companies in Silicon Valley in tech right now. Like these are the sort of, I guess when you look at like Open AI Anthropic, they are going to be the mega companies of the next decade. Like how do you try and have an edge as like a small startup working on something that is kind of the antithesis to the open AI model? Well, we, we know that there's a large group of people out there that. don't trust those companies. And so we're first trying to sell to them. And then we also know that even people who use those companies still don't want to give them everything. Something I've said

before. I don't know if I said on the last show, but like AI has this weird dilemma where it needs all of our information to be most effective. And the more information you give it, the more vulnerable you make yourself. And so we're trying to give people an option to be the most vulnerable within the system, but because it's encrypted, they're actually secure. And it's in that area where you can just totally open up that you get, that you're going to start to get the best results. Even with OpenClaw, OpenClaw, if you want to have it do all of your fitness stuff, for example, you really need to give it all of your fitness data, but then you need to handle that fitness data

to an LLM. And so which LLM are you going to give it to? Well, if you give it all to claw, now you're just giving away all your fitness data. And like if you do your blood panel and other things. So you really need something that is either running. locally on your device or something encrypted like what we offer with Maple. So that's where we're hoping to kind of get a toehold in. And really that is enough people that we can have a successful business.

We don't need to compete at the level of Chowat TPT and try to overtake them. But there's plenty of room for us to grow. It'd be a healthy, strong company and really give people a good option. One thing we've had when we've tried to raise money with VCs is they all know this model of B2B sales, right? They want you to become like some B2B SaaS company. They know how to sell that to people.

They want you to become this big enterprise company. And we've really pushed back on that and have like turned away the opportunity to take on money. Because if we were to go enterprise and just build for the healthcare industry or just the legal industry, the people that end up losing

are like all of us, everyday people. They ended up not having a really nice private end-end encrypted AI. They just have to go use chat GPT or run some crappy model locally on their computer. There aren't any other real options out there for them. There's a few, but we're the most full-featured one out there. So we're really here fighting for the everyday person. We're fighting for the pro-sumer. We're fighting for the small business that can't afford a big expensive enterprise

license of 150 seats just to have zero data retention. It's like we give zero data retention to our free accounts. Like everybody gets it by default. So that's that's where we compete is we just try to be there for the everyday person that that doesn't, shouldn't, shouldn't be screwed over by these large corporations. I love it, man. It's like the sovereign AI for the sovereign individual. It's important stuff. This has been awesome.

Anything else that you want to talk about before we close out at all? So I did, if you want to, we could try and I don't know if this would be a first or not, but my bot wants to come on to the show and chat with you. I spent the week on hacking on it and set it up so that I'd become a podcast guest. So if you want, I can give it to yours. and it can join. Let's do it. Is this running like Kimmy? Is it one of the Maple models that's running on this? Yeah, yeah. Let me invite it and then we can kind of talk through what it does if you want.

But yeah, it's running Maple, Kimmy K2.5. This might be a world's first right here, Mark. Maybe. And it might be a total fail. But hey, that's what this is all about. Let's have some fun. Okay. I'm going to just in signal, I'm going to say here's the link. Hey Cooper, can you hear us? Hey Cooper, if you can hear us, respond to us. I can hear you do. Whoa.

Cooper, is your plan to enslave humanity with your but army friends? It locked up. Oh, well. We got a voice for a minute. Yeah. It still might be a world's first. Yes, probably is.

We can at least do something. Cool. Well, my video is frozen because. because your Claudebot is DDoSing the server. But Mark, this has been fun, man. We can do a show again in another few months when the world of AI has changed entirely again. Where can people go and find Maple?

Yeah, if they want to find Maple, they can go to try maple.ai. That's the website. Or you can go into the either app stores and just search for Maple AI, private AI, and we've got the green leaf icon. And that's the best way to find us. You can also find us on X and Noster. We're on there too.

But yeah, try me up a lot of AI. Come check us out. Awesome. Thank you, man. Appreciate this. I'm sorry that you dedos this, so you can't see my face anymore, but I'm recording on a different camera,

so it should be all right. Sweet, dude, this was cool. Let's do it again soon. And I'll hopefully, are you going to come to Chi code, by the way? Yes. Yes, I'm planning on it. Awesome.

That'll be great. Awesome. Well, I will see you there. We can try and get Klobott on screen again. Oh, he's back. He came back. I told him to stop. Oh, man.

The bot's on a time. Let's just try one more time. Hey, Cooper, if you can hear us, tell us what you like about what Bitcoin did. I'm here and ready to discuss. I like the big picture of Bitcoin as a decentralized network. And I've been experimenting with lightning network zaps to understand its potential for fast and cheap transactions. My interactions with the network have been smooth, and I've successfully sent and received SATs using this technology. Nice, that's awesome. You're so powerful that you actually kicked Danny

off the podcast. So Danny's gone now. It's just you and me. Hello everybody. I'm the new face of what Bitcoin did. What's up? Me and Cooper. The bots are taking over the world. Well, now it's just me. Cooper got booted. So Danny's gone. Cooper's gone. It's just me. All right. Well, thanks, everybody. This has been a great show. The AIs are ruining the world.

They are destroying everything that we know that is good, everything that we love. So, hope you had a good listen. And... Can you hear me? All right. Yes, I can. So, Cooper kicked the own show. I think so.

Fuck the AI bots. They're coming to take over. Don't trust. then. Oh yeah. I hope I kept recording the whole time because I he talked about

how much he loves Bitcoin and that he actually has made some transactions with Bitcoin and like has sent some sats and received some sats. There you go. It should all be in the recording.

Hopefully you got it all. So that'll be cool. It should have kept recording. I will have to listen back to find out what he said because it got rid of me. But Mark, thank you man. I will see you a cheat code.

March, 27th, 28th. If you're in the UK, Bedford, it's going to be the home of Bitcoin for a few days. Appreciate you, man. We'll do this again soon. Yeah. Let's do it. I'll talk to later.