What Bitcoin Did - The AI Future Is Overhyped. Why Bitcoin Still Matters | Junseth

Episode Date: March 27, 2026

"No innovation will ever change the world more than 2%. Even Bitcoin." Junseth is a Bitcoin OG who's been here since a week after pizza day. He returns to challenge every narrative the tech world is selling you, from AI replacing all jobs to the metaverse that never existed. Junseth makes the case that the future is being imagined by people who think the best state of the world is living in your bedroom and never coming out, and that the rest of us don't have to elect to live in that world. He explains why AI adoption will be far slower than anyone thinks, why the people predicting the end of jobs are still hiring programmers, and why the Gell-Mann amnesia effect means you shouldn't trust any of the expert timelines. We also get into whether Bitcoin has actually done anything yet, why Bitcoin is boring and that's a good thing, the emergence of political factions and BIP 110, whether AI consciousness and belief in God are diametrically opposed, why the agent economy might reshape the internet, and why if you lose your job you should just go start a trash bin cleaning business. THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: ANCHORWATCH BLOCKWARE LEDN BITKEY SWAN CLUB ORANGE FOLLOW: Danny Knowles: https://x.com/\_DannyKnowles or https://primal.net/danny Junseth: https://x.com/verysmallclaims

If something comes along and improves the world, 2%, you now have a world that doubles 36 years faster than it used to be. Bitcoin's a global project. People that have dreams for it, it's very selfish. Their dreams are going to be very small compared to what Bitcoin does. Don't fall into the trap of the autistic bedroom dweller, like, telling you his dream for the world and how he's about to achieve it. You don't have to live in that world. You can elect not to. Bitcoin needs to be used primarily for its function of transferring value from place to place right now,

such that that is the number one reason that someone wants to use the blockchain. And until then, every, we will have a million attack vectors. Mr. Junice, I. We're on. Have you seen, you're obviously on the show, maybe. three years ago talking about how. This is for me, obviously. Yeah, you've got your sippy cup ready.

It was whiskey when you were on the show last time. Now it's sippy cups. It was whiskey and guns. But you were on the show a few years ago. Look at you, you know, your baby snacks. Well, I love baby snacks. This is actually what I buy now when I go to the store. I put things into shippy cup bottles so I can, you know, drink them later.

I don't want to be the one to doxy at Jenteth, but I feel like you have. You've got your kid in the room. Yeah, my little. baby's here. Having a fun time walking around seeing the cameras. She might make an appearance if she's brave. There's no idea what's going on. But last time, not last time, but a few years ago when you're on the pod did a show about how the metaverse isn't real. Have you seen they've closed down the metaverse? It wasn't real. Well, the company that named themselves after the metaverse have closed down their metaverse. Well, that's not surprising because it never

really existed in the first place. It's one of the latest narratives in. crypto world to die. It's really easy to make predictions when you're just saying true things. You know, the metaverse stuff was funny. I remember debating someone. They told me that the amazing thing about the metaverse was that very soon, Boeing is going to be able to stop making airplanes. Because why would you need to go there? And that we will be able to just walk into an airplane in the virtual world, fly somewhere and land and get to see, you know, any place we want. And I said to this person, well, why use an airplane? Why not a Star Trek trans like transporter then? And they didn't, they, they just kind of froze because they hadn't considered that maybe, you know, in the

metaverse, you don't need an airplane. Like, why spend like three hours flying to a place that's virtual when you could just transport there? No, you still got to go through TSA. You've got a sir, sir, please. You have metal in your pockets. The thing that was insane to me. The thing that was the most insane to me about that narrative is how they thought you could take any kind of human touch out of an interaction. Like they thought that it could be the same. Me and you sat here with our VR headsets on and it feel the same as us being sat here. I don't know what the kind of, what was going on? What were people actually thinking? I think this was like brain rot after COVID. It used to be that the world was imagined by people who were grounded and had a sense of

wonder about the future. And now the world is imagined by a bunch of autistics who want nothing, who think that the best state of the world is one, wherein you live in your bedroom and never come out. And human interactions are superfluous like food in Silicon Valley. You know what I mean? Like it's the, what's that, the green drink or whatever it was from that movie? What's this? Where they drink the people. Oh, I do. I do know what you mean.

So I was talking to, I think this is what's that what's that called, though? I don't know. Do you want me to look at it? Yeah. I can't think of what that was called. They have a product that they make of it too. That's like a soy like milk thing. Let's see. All the, all the energy you'd ever need.

Soilin green. Soilent. What was that? Is that what it was called or is that's what the fake one is? Soilent. It was both. I mean, they named Soilent after Soilent. Yeah.

The whole world is like, it's like, Soylent, but in like human interaction sense. Like you, you just, the world's imagined by people who think the best state of the world is living in your bedroom and not seeing beautiful things and not experiencing art. You know, for the sake of, you know, there's a whole lot of things that have always existed that you can do that you could do virtually that are virtually identical to doing the real thing, going. to a concert listening to a CD, for example. And people have decided that it is a better world where I can go to a concert and watch the person who I love to listen to the CD of perform the music live. And there's a whole class of people that we've given a whole bunch of power to for some reason who view the world as, or who view those people who believe those things as insipid and as as as as as uncomfortably imaginative, I guess.

And I view those people as normal. And I think you would have too. Yeah. And the thing is that there's like an infection that I've noticed that has occurred in humans where we take this class of people who believe that living inside their bedroom is the best state of the world. And it seems like it infects all of our analyses in all over. Like everyone I talk to talks about.

AI as if it's going to replace every single job. They talk about, uh, you know, the great future in which we'll all be like embedding chips in our brain and sitting in chairs like in the matrix. And I just don't see that as an interesting world. And I don't think that they would see that as an interesting world. And I don't see how you end up from here to there without convincing people that it's an interesting world. As humans, we still have to be, we still have to elect to live in the world that we build. There's so much in that. So I do want to come back to the AI taking jobs.

But before we do, like, do you think the world, like the world is dictated by like the genius autis coders at the moment because like everything comes out. No, the world is not dictated by them. The imagination is captured by them. That's what I'm saying is like they don't make the world. They, they're the ones that make stupid products and say that everyone's going to like this amazing product. In Bitcoin, we saw it for years.

We had slock it and like all sorts of other retarded things that people. made and proposed. And I was like, you know, always viewed as this person who was just so amazing in terms of understanding what wouldn't, wouldn't work. But like they, I knew that nothing would work because it was stupid. And like, it's the same way nowadays, you know. But you can't say the big tech companies haven't worked. Like it's not that the big tech companies haven't worked. It's that it's that the augmentation of the world we live in is like a good thing. Things that allow us to better connect can, you know, maybe be good. and good enhancements to your life or my life.

But a world where like every single, every single young kid has anxiety about how many likes they get on a post, I think you and I both would agree that that is not an optimal world to live in. Absolutely. And I think that those kids that have the anxiety would agree that if there were an alternative, which there is. You just don't go on social media. Yeah. If there were an alternative, they would prefer the alternative.

And so the imagination is captured by these autistic idiots who don't understand human interaction. But we as humans, again, still have to elect to live in the world they're imagining. And I don't think that there's support for that. See, I wonder if AI really changes that. So I was speaking to Jesse Posner, who I don't know if you know him, working on Vora with Eric Kaysen at the moment. They're doing a load of AI stuff. And he was saying, like, the interesting change that's going to happen is that the world is no longer created, like, for example, social media by these genius coders at Silicon Valley. It's going to be the philosophers and the English majors that are now going to be the best actually implementing ideas because all you have to do is use language to talk to these AI models and who's better at language than those people.

That's dumb. Why? Because, let me just help you out there. We told me it was a death trap, Abigail. There you go. Come here on. You're doxing yourself now. We nearly lost a camera, but we're okay. Okay. So it's done because the language of every single industry is not best spoken by an English major. The language of art is going to be spoken by someone who is well-versed in art and maybe has an art history major. I mean, he included the artists, the creatives. They're the people he's really talking about. But the language of like, I don't know, science is best.

That's spoken by a scientist. Like I, I've done some things in chat GPT and these other LLMs or I'm making things using them for, you know, making, making various things that I sell just for fun. I have these little projects I do. And I won't tell you how many times they have given me like formulations that if I were to mix them together, they would cause a giant explosion. And, and then when I ask it. Do you mean unintentionally here or intentionally? It tells me that these, just mix these two things together. And then it'll be like, that that'll explode.

And it'll be like, oh, yeah, that it will. Yeah. Potentially, yes. See, but I think you can argue that that's down to inputs as well. Okay, so we'll give that to an English major. Let the English major like parse that out then. But did you see the guy in Australia? I don't know how true this is because it was on Twitter,

but the guy whose dog had cancer. And then he cured his dog's cancer with the, I heard about this. So he like sequenced the genome and then we fed it into some. LLM, got it to come up with the like MRNA vaccine and created the vaccine, went through the regulations, gave this dog the vaccine and it seemingly has done a good job at like reducing the cancer. It sounds like MRNA might actually be incredible. I think we always knew that though, right?

Yeah. But like, okay, so what we have here is regulatory hurdles that prevent MRNA from being incredible. We have LLMs that will take all of the MRNA research and tell you what to do. We also have scientists that can do that stuff. And like, this isn't a world. Like, what's neat is the DIY chemistry stuff. Like a lot of that DIY, DIY chemistry and DIY everything.

I mean, I set up a chemistry lab in my own house. What happened to the wood shop? I have a wood shop in my own house. I have a chemistry lab. I have a wood shop. I have, you know, everything I can, you know, I have toys and whatever that I enjoy. But I have a daughter that I want to like have her be allowed to. and do everything that she can possibly do so she can learn the language of the world.

And the language isn't like Chinese or Spanish or anything like that. It's like the language of chemistry and the language of biology and the language of computer science and all of these things. All of that language is going to actually help you to actually navigate, whether it's LLMs or whatever it is in the future. Like I don't really view the LLM space as AI per se. Like, it's just kind of, like, it's just language models. They're just, you know, output machines.

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you said you don't think it's going to take every job. I think every job is a stretch for anyone. But like, I think it's going to replace a lot of jobs. And especially those jobs tend to be, at least at first, white-collar jobs. Like, it's the computer programmers, it's going to be the lawyers, the accountants. Like, these, this is going to be, like, incredibly disruptive. Do you think it's all, do you think it's all, do you think, we're going to move to a better future, even if we have a huge interim period where it's very

painful for people? Or do you think we're going to see some revolt against technology? I don't know. I tend to live my life as a Luddist and the first, so it doesn't really bother me anyway, which way it goes. And as to whether we end up having a revolt with people or whether there actually is this incredible transition that everyone's predicting, I don't know. I think the thing about transition in history, I think, shows us this, is that we as humans do fine with tumultuous transitions as long as they're slow. And we... But this isn't going to be slow. I don't think you're right.

I think that, I think it will be very slow comparatively. I think it's going to be... What makes you think that, though? Because you look at the sort of the charts of how good these LLM models are getting, and it's basically exponential at the moment. So how can that be slow? Because it's just, it's, everything just takes longer than you think. It's kind of like the humanoid robots.

Everyone is telling me we were going to have by now that we don't have, you know. And I don't think that we'll ever have them. I think that those will probably, I was talking to someone a couple months ago saying that, like, I don't think that humanoid robots are the answer. I think it's going to be specific task robots that, you know, rule the days. Yeah. And that's just, that's my prediction. Like, I don't think that there's any reason why it has to look like a human.

Like, you know, I think that a robot built to sweep my floors is going to be way better at sweeping my floors than like a general purpose human. I mean, I have one of them. I have a robot vacuum. And it's terrible. I mean, it's better than you do it. Yeah. It's better than you because it does it every day. Well, that's the thing is like, there's just like reality in which if you've had one of these robots, you know.

Okay. Your robot does a job that is 10% as good as your job. But it does it every day. So after two weeks, you look at the floor and you're like, this is 400% better than it is when I take care of it. Yep. But like in like an aggregate sense, it's better. But in like an individual like I just vacuum the floor sense, it's heinous. 100%.

Right. And that's how all these are. Same with my like my, my, um, my mower. Same thing. You have a robot mower? Oh yeah. It does a 5% as good a job as I do.

5%. And only an aggregate, like after a week, is it as good as mine. You know, dad is pretty good too. You don't want that. Do you want peanuts down there, hon? I think this is the most wholesome show I've ever done. Yeah, well, peanuts and peanuts here.

Oh, you can have peanuts. Mommy can make sure you don't choke on them. There you go. So, yeah, I think in aggregate, the mower does about a 5% of good job as I do mowing the lawn, but because it does it every day, now my lawn is mowed. Did you see the humanoid robot thing that came out maybe six months ago or something, where it was sold as this thing that was going to do all the tasks around your house? It looked like a human.

It could do the dishwasher. And it turned out it was being driven by someone with a VR headset in like another part. You could always expect that, though. Nothing, nothing. I have a rule in my life, which is that like no innovation will ever change the world more than 2%. Even Bitcoin? Nothing. You don't think Bitcoin's changed the world by more than 2%.

No, not efficiency. I think it'll like, I think maximum like Bitcoin could do like a big 2%. Like that's a huge. Think about it this way. Like if something comes along and improves the world, 2%, you now have a world that double, 36 years faster than it used to be. It's pretty big. It's huge.

So, like, every 36 years, you'll have another doubling based on the 2% change. Like, 2% is a lot. People don't realize that. I think last time we spoke, you said Bitcoin's not done anything yet. Yeah.

Do you feel like it has at this point? No. No, not yet. I find that really hard. It's just, it's jumped in value. Like, what is it done? We haven't done anything yet. It's done, but it has.

has done things for people. Like people rich. No, no, but and it's helped people escape dictatorships and autocratic regimes. Well, that's what it does. That's what it does. Yeah. No, that is a thing that Bitcoin does. Makes people rich and helps people escape.

Well, Bitcoin goes in your prison wallet and helps you escape a autocracy, oligarchy, whatever, arque you're living under, right? Bitcoin is good at being transported. That's the function of Bitcoin, right? You memorize some things in your head and it moves from place to place. Incredible. Helps you escape fiat debasement. Yeah.

So it has done things. If that's a thing that, if we're considering that doing a thing, then yeah. So, okay. So when you say that it, it moves value. That's what Bitcoin does. Like, that's, I'm not, I'm not, I don't want to take away from that. What I mean is like, is Bitcoin, is Bitcoin doing like, like, are we seeing banks use it and governments grab it? And like, is it really changing the world?

Like getting people out of like bad situations, they could stick gold up their butthole or they can stick Bitcoin up their butthole. Bitcoin is better. And especially, especially over shorter periods of time where it's like a little, you know, we can get it and get it out, sell it. It's highly liquid. It doesn't, you don't have to go to your local coin shop and take a 10% Vig on it. Right. Like Bitcoin is better at that. That's a thing. It's way better at getting in and out of countries.

You could literally, you know, mine your way out of Venezuela or something. like that if you had to, although now we don't have to worry about Venezuela. They're fine. But I'm not sure they're fine. They're fine. They might be in a slightly better situation. They're fine. Job done. Mission accomplished. Is there something that you would look at and be like, okay, that Bitcoin's real now? I think if governments were we're kind of doing like mini war with Bitcoin, that would be kind of an interesting thing. Like, fighting over. I think if we, um, I think if Bitcoin were used more in like transactions for like arms and maybe higher crimes,

I don't know, but arms deals and other such things. Maybe that would be, I don't know. I just, I just feel like I can look at it and Bitcoin's kind of, it's just boring. Bitcoin's boring. It's not, it's not, it's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. I always joked about it. I said, if Bitcoin were universal.

So like we, we have, you know, these meetup groups down here. We had them. If Bitcoin were universal, it would, this meetup group would be like having. the like uh green back money club it just be like very very stupid uh just passing around dollar bills yeah and you know i like exactly like look at this dollar man like this cool and like i i feel like we're just i i'm not going to have a strong sense that bitcoin's done something until we're at the stage where like we're doing that kind of thing um i think the etifs are a really big thing. I think the like acceptance generally for Bitcoin in everyday life and such is a really big thing.

I think the fact that the shit coins are still around is a bad thing. Yeah, but are they even like that relevant anymore? I feel like the sort of well they've piggybacked on a lot of the Bitcoin stuff and like nobody knows, right? Like for example, like you have ETH ETFs and you have ripple, I'm sure ETFs and you know, whatever. Like you have all of these things that are just kind of like piggybacking on the the sort of like footsteps that bitcoin's forged and they're just kind of there were just a few months behind it it it would seem and also no one really cares about them like the the eith treasury companies like who's talking about them bitcoin tina is he he called me up once you got to get out this bitcoin this is this there you're a treachery company i said that's so stupid i'm not doing that i put ten dollars and

just took track it oh poor is he just trying to make it all back control no what he's doing i i i've told I've told him before to just like, like, I don't think everyone knows what Bitcoin T is, but I've, uh, I get a kick out of it because like, like, I think, I think for him he needed to reduce his like Bitcoin stack because he's an older guy. And, uh, and now like I just, he's, he's just really loves reading market news and following ideas. And I just think he's a really bad trader. I would be too. I don't trade though. I just. Yeah.

I don't have any Bitcoin, but... Of course not. Never have. When did Bitcoin get boring then? Because, like, even since I've come in, it's... I mean, it's changed massively. Since you... Were you, like, 2011? I was a week after Pizza Day, so I think that's 2010, but I'm not sure.

So you've seen everything? I've seen everything. And it definitely hasn't always been boring. Well, you know, it's funny because at the time, I didn't think I'd seen everything. At the time, I thought it was late. I mean, that's insane. That's how everyone felt at every stage of entering Bitcoin. It doesn't matter when you got here.

Every single person has felt like they missed everything and that they're late. I felt that way. I couldn't believe how late I was to this like cool project. It's weird to be in the position now that I'm considered an OG because like when I got here, there were people that had been here before. Yeah, but the longest they could have been before you is like 18 months. But like it's still felt absolutely, it felt the same. It felt exactly the same.

And back then we celebrated. rated things like when Bitcoin magazine was in a few Barnes and Nobles. That was when Vitalik had it. Well, I guess that's a story. When Matthew N. Wright, this is pre-acquisitioned by BitPay or Tony, Galeepi. Matthew and Wright was one of the big guys on there. I don't remember Vitalik really being anything other than kind of a staff writer. And I think maybe they gave us equity, but maybe I'm wrong.

There's some history of that that I'm not sure exactly how that worked. But Matthew and Wright and a few other guys, Matthews who kind of like disappeared from the community after the pirate scandal. But yeah, that got in, the Bitcoin magazine was put into some Barnes and Nobles. I remember going and buying issue one at Barnes & Noble, if it was issue one or two. And just couldn't, couldn't believe that my like teeny tiny project had like made it, done enough to get into Barnes and Noble. So I guess the news around Bitcoin has been exciting before.

But now it just kind of turned into like CNBC financial news. Before I felt like we were building a business at one time as like a giant community of people. Does it feel in any way like it's failed to become what you thought it was going to be? No. I never had any expectations. I wasn't like a libertarian who thought we were going to take over the world. I would say that the way that Bitcoin has gone has been closer to their predictions than I, than I thought it ever would be.

It's faster than I think they ever thought. The idea that you have this asset that you've created out of thin air that is sort of like, I don't know, it's sort of like going through Pennsylvania, right, and discovering that the Indians are finding this like juice coming out of rocks. And then you're like, oh, that's interesting. And you're like, lights on fire. Interesting. And you pull it out of the ground.

You fill it barrel. and then you're like, huh, I wonder what the fuck this does. And then over time, like, it replaces, like, oil lamps. And over time, it replaces, you know, and then all of a sudden there's unused for it because we have, like, the automobile arrives, right? And you derive, like, all sorts of things from it, including what goes in there to lubricate and, like, gasoline and whatever, right? So there's, there's, that sort of thing. And I think that's, that's kind of how, like, Bitcoin is oil in your computer, right? We don't really, like it was discovered there by Satoshi Nakamoto.

There's an asset in there. We didn't really know how to quantify the asset. He did it with some numbers and some algos to like pull it out. And now it's like, oh, there's an asset in my computer. Well, what is it useful for? Like it's kind of like money, like this thing that we've theorized, you know, we've made these proximate things that we call money that are like money, that have the features of a thing that we think money has, you know.

And so there's this thing in the computer that digitally that looks like what we theorized exists, which is money. It's kind of like oil and that like it's an asset we've never touched. And we're just kind of looking like, what does it do? And maybe it is money. You know, maybe it is. We don't know yet exactly because it's just like it's just kind of like sitting there in your computer doing its thing. And we are just holding it and just watching it and seeing what like smarter people than us do with it. So you don't worry at all about.

like this idea or co-option of what Bitcoin could have been. No. No, that's stupid. No, Bitcoin don't live in no regrets. Neither is John Seth. But why, like, why is it stupid? Because I know you understand the sort of idea around that that basically it becomes like a war-y-y-ups.

It's stupid because there's not one person who's in charge of this. And there's like, maybe you have dreams for Bitcoin, but your dreams for Bitcoin are so stupid and small. Well, I agree with that. But like, that's everybody. Everyone's got dreams for Bitcoin and their dreams. for Bitcoin are stupid and small. Like Bitcoin, you know, like no one could have foreseen the automobile. No one, maybe some people who are working on it could have foreseen AI. Maybe some people could

have foreseen, you know, like whatever. Invity is making chips. Like Bitcoin proceeds like a lot of this, like what happens, Ethereum, what I call a scam, comes out trying to take a different kind of market. It's a stupid market for it to take. But people are mining it. Therefore, Nvidia's like, we got to make these chips. Invidia makes a bunch of chips. Gets really like really valuable. on the back of Ethereum, then all of a sudden, AI is announced. Like, hey, by the way, we need these chips. It's almost like Bitcoin was, like, created by an AI back. Well, the government might have had AI back then.

AI, maybe Bitcoin is an AI. And it was like, I need to devise the greatest scheme in history to have Nvidia make chips so that AI can become a thing in like the future. And it only took 15 years, really for it. It's just, what, 16 years for it to do it. And that would be incredible. But, like, you know, Bitcoin's a global project. People that have dreams for it, have dreams for it.

And they can have their dreams. And that's, it's very selfish. Their dreams are going to be very small compared to what Bitcoin does. All my dream is that I hope that Bitcoin can always be used as freedom money. That's basically my only dream for Bitcoin. Because that's why I cared about it originally. It's why I still care about it today. Like, I think they're the only properties that I need it to not lose for it to remain interesting.

Yeah. But those properties are endemic to it. So the way it would lose them exclusively is through regulation, but that doesn't change the properties of the thing itself. Yeah. But I guess like usability is important. Like you need to be able to actually use it as freedom money. Maybe.

I mean, if you want, if you want things to skirt regulation, then, you know, maybe recruit some anarchist UI developers. I mean, they're here. That's for sure. It's just that like everyone's going to work toward the regulatory thing being prettier and better. And the hard thing is always going to be uglier and harder. Yeah. I like throwing these narratives at you because you just basically say everything's dumb.

Everything is dumb. But do you think Bitcoin will be the money of AI? AI is really dumb. No, I'm kidding. Will Bitcoin be the money of AI? I don't know. maybe tether will be the money of AI. It depends on what AI wants.

If it's looking for like stable currency to trade in, like, tether is probably a better option for now than Bitcoin. But tether runs on Bitcoin. And other blockchains. Yeah, but started on Bitcoin, like, you know, Bitcoin is where all of this experimentation began and it went to other blockchains for marketing purposes. And then eventually for like liquidity.

You know, if you believe as I do that like the liquidity, collapse, like that liquidity collapses to Bitcoin eventually, like tether's on Bitcoin, right? And so, you know, to me, like, maybe, maybe tether or maybe Bitcoin, I don't know. I could see a world where it's both, at least in the short period. It's AI. So, like, there's no reason it can't just use credit cards and- Well, there is. ACH.

Because, like, if it tries to buy something on a website with a credit card and it hits a security check, what does it do? Well, I mean, I think the Internet's going to change. See, I think this is what's going to happen with AI. I don't think that like, I don't think that you're going to necessarily, like everyone's going to lose their jobs. But I think the internet's going to fundamentally change. I think the internet is going to become like heavily botted. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Advertisements are going to be two AIs, you know, websites might end up being like, there might be entire sections of the internet that are just like blocks of code. Just API calls back and forth. Kind of. I mean, like, AI doesn't need Amazon to. Show them a picture of pretty shoes to buy them. So if you have an agent, if that is like, if we go agentic in the future here, where like everyone's got their own personal agent, which I think is not going to work today. But it's just because it's too hard.

It's just way too hard. These things are expensive. Like unless you have unlimited funds, you're not going to be able to go like have a good agentic experience. but might change in a year. So if we're going to go agentic, like if that actually is happening, you're not going to necessarily be doing a lot of your grocery shopping, you know,

so why does Instacart need to have like a picture, a picture of the raspberries, you know, for you to buy them? I don't know. So I don't know exactly, but like to me, as I'm watching traffic trends change on the internet,

particularly with regard to ads, like it used to be that bots were taking over the web and for whatever reason, people are just crawling, crawling, crawling, but that there was enough traffic of real people. I would say nowadays I'm hearing and looking at like websites, content websites with 60, 40, 60 to 80% traffic from AIs, at least in the short term that's been the case. And that's like incredible.

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Because like Twitter already, the bots on Twitter are insane. I mean, the Ouroboros effect? What's that? Orboros is a snake eating its own tail, right? So like, at the point AI is consuming AI content and then using that to train AI, I don't know what you end up with

because you might understand, up with something incredible or you more than likely end up with something inscrutable and stupid. And it happens real quick because AI just can make a lot of bad content really quickly. So I don't know. I don't know. I've been wondering about that since the day it started because like the first thing I heard is everyone's going to like not have jobs. I'm like, well, then that means AI is going to be the only thing writing. And if AI is the only thing writing, then AI is the only thing training AI.

Which is already kind of happening. Like when AI models are training the next AI models. Yeah, but they're training with data that like existed before. So like, it's just the problem is like if the entire internet becomes like AI is philosophizing to themselves about like religions that they can follow. Like that's like it's like it's really like weird. I don't really. I guess that's the point where AI then over time just gets worse, not better. Yeah, I think so.

I think it just gets worse and worse. It doesn't improve at that stage. Whereas like, you know, if it's practicing on like I think I think AI in some sense needs to like interact with the real world. Um, if, if AI is purely digital and interacting with digital world only, then it's, uh, it's going to be, it's going to be very difficult for it to like become better. I think that's, that's often true of like the Bitcoin stuff. And again, this is like the autistic living in his room dream that like you can, I just live on the internet and become better. And like if you don't interact with the real world, you don't, you become better at coding maybe. But like nothing, you don't become better at baseball.

You don't become better at understanding what people like or enjoy or, you know, whatever. And that's, I think that it's going to be very difficult for AI as if they don't operate in the real world as well. So this is like the idea that for AI to actually get to sort of AGI, it needs to have some sort of plain pleasure response. Depends on what you mean by AGI. Because like eight months ago, AGI I meant that AI was the singularity. And I then said, AGIL will never happen. And now AGI means that like it's like a little better than it is now. So what do you say?

What do you mean? Maybe like super intelligence is a better word or you know, I think you can't go as far as How do you define super? Because like you can beat everybody in chess, right? Yeah. And I know it's really hard because like you almost want to say conscious, but it's not going to be conscious. But like I guess perpetually self-improving, I think it needs a pleasure response to have like the right incentives. It needs to go out into the world and experience things I feel.

And that's where the AI. robots get more interesting. Like, imagine if every AI robot was, like, its own sort of self-hosted LLM that reported back to the mothership type thing, then it would have its own unique set of experiences. And I think that's where it can truly be considered, like, super intelligent ADA, whatever term you want to put on that. Would you call this, like, a Borg of sorts?

I guess. I think in some ways, like, I see these, like, futurists, like Rick Hartswell talking about. about how the world is going to be. And they're perpetually incorrect, perpetually. Nothing they think is going to happen has ever occurred. And yet Google pays them massive amounts of money to come and speak as if they're like an alien from outer space explaining to you for the first time what the future of the world will be. But someone's got to have a swing.

Everyone can't just be like, I swing all the time and I'm just so right. So off this stuff. I like, I, I think. with like this this a i have a lot of difficulty because there's we're clearly seeing some new stuff come on i do think a i is potentially as revolutionary as the internet however revolutionary you think that that was very yeah but i don't know that it like achieved everybody's dreams right so like i i i keep getting called an ai bear because i'm like instead instead of like the internet um basically putting every single person out of a job, making every single digital, everything, you know, obsolete, whatever,

maybe it'll end up in like a, you know, place where you buy pants and shoes, you know, for the most part. And then, you know, allow us to communicate and, you know, whatever. So there's, there's great things the internet has done. Incredible opportunities. It's opened up, you know, amazing efficiencies. And, and it's made us a better, better as a society in some. ways and worse in others. Like the consequences of it, I think we have not necessarily fully dealt with, nor like seen what they fully are. Right. Are you really talking about social media here?

I guess. Like to me, that's sort of like this small. I'm honestly like I think outsourcing, the ease of outsourcing. Yeah. The reduction of quality. Like, have you ever used a phone from the 90s? How old are you? I'm 30, nearly 35. So bear. Yeah. I think the first phone I had was a Nokia 3310. You mean a cell phone? Yeah. Okay. Oh, do you mean like a natural like house like landline? Yeah. Oh yeah. Of course I use one. Yeah. Copper to copper. Yeah. It's it's not digital. Right. It's analog. The quality is like you're standing next to the person. Yeah. There's not. You're not like, I can't hear you. Your signal's back. You know, that stuff. Yeah. we sacrificed like high fidelity for bad fidelity talk to people anywhere and so there's consequences to that is it better i think we've all decided it is um there's consequences and that's like a lot of a lot of life is like that where we've given up quality for like sort of anywhereness furniture

I want to move 42 times before I am 38. So I buy $100 furniture. And instead of like ordering a Crosman home from Sears that has the furniture built into the walls, you know what I mean? And that lasts 135 years before it like ever needs to be looked at again. I know this is, you're going to again, you're going to call me dumb here. But like I think there is. I really call you dumb. There is like a fiat element to that as well, though.

Like when you consider how expensive, like, handcraft. That's dumb. Yeah. But like, when you consider how expensive, like, a handcrafted table is compared to, like, the average salary, and then you compare that to, like, my parents' generation. There's a big difference there. I don't think so. No, I don't think so.

I think that's, it's not just. Like, why can't they go? But it's also, it's the loss of craft. A handcrafted table used to be made by your grandpa. Exactly. So, like, that's the point. Like, that's not true. Like, it, you can still go get lumber from Home Depot.

You could make, uh, 1990s era. oak table for maybe $800 in wood. I think you're right there. Because my dad could build a nice table. I couldn't. Yeah. I mean, you could if you watch enough pornography about videos. Woodworking, though.

Yeah, true. Yeah. It's like the whole world now just learns everything through. That's actually the interesting thing. Like it's the sort of information has been democratized. Like you can go on YouTube and watch. I'm sure there's tens of thousands of videos of how to make a really nice table, but no one does it.

Yeah. Or very few people. It's because it's porn. it's titillating, especially to men. It's pornography. Yeah. So like you want to make an heirloom table. You can watch someone go make an heirloom table and fantasize about how you would do it too.

See, mine is the people that go out into like the woods in Alaska and camp with nothing. I've never done it. I never want to do it. But that's the thing I watch. That's your like titillating pornography. But now you know how to do it. That's true. Yeah.

Although I stick me in that situation. I'm dead in a week. You can learn in two ways. You can have generational knowledge passed down through the generations by, by the old folks, or you can learn through pornography. And I think like the latchkey generation and many others after it, learned their sex from Playboy and other places. And, you know, the modern day child is learning sex from, you know,

ex-hamster and U-Porn and Porn Tube and Porn Hub. I mean, you know all of them, obviously. These are, we discussed this earlier, a longer list than I did. And so, so like you can learn, you can learn sex through watching people have it, which is what like the modern generation is done. And it's the same with everything else. It's just you, you can learn from the old generations. You can learn by being hands on or you can learn through porn.

And there are consequences to that. So it's not like to the earlier question, it's not social media so much that like I'm that worried about. Like I don't mind, you know, phone books online. which is essentially what like most social media is. But I am, like I said, I'm a Luddist. I don't know, I don't know how to use most social media to be honest. And I don't really care because like I just think, I just think that the whole,

the world is made for humans, whether you believe in God or not, none of this matters if it's not for our pleasure. And so I don't spend a lot of my time indoors, experiencing the pleasure of like surfing the internet. Like I'd rather go into nature and look at it and be amazed and in awe of a thunderstorm that's happening and take care of my yard and trees and and plants and stuff like that. I'd rather be tending to my external environment than tending to the environment that I can create internally.

And if there's like automations that I can make that allow me to do that. better and more quickly. Oftentimes I'll take advantage of those. Like this morning, I put a gardener out of business with AI. I put a timer on my hose. But so essentially, I started this by saying, do you think people were a vault against this? And actually, AI could be a way off the internet for a lot of people.

Like, AI could be the interface between you and the internet without you having to go on the internet. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying, though, is like, I think that there is a world in which, like, people use a. AI to go do the things that people used to do. And I think that that frees up a lot of your own time. And like, I don't think necessarily like, I don't know, I'm not going to lament the like loss of Instacart shoppers or something like, but maybe maybe that doesn't get lost, right?

Maybe Instacart shoppers remain and maybe Uber drivers remain or maybe eventually they're replaced by actual robots, right? I don't know. Maybe you have a robot kitchen in your house that like makes Chef Ramsey type dishes. You know, that's an American hoddle idea. I'm talking about, but like, maybe that's, maybe that's a kind of thing that, that happens. But yeah, I do think that like, if there's anything really good about AI, it's the promise that you as an individual will have the opportunity, possibly, to do more interaction with the external world. And I don't think that's what the autists are thinking is going to happen.

I think that they think your whole life is going to be like, like taken over by the AI monster. Whereas I'm, I'm thinking like, this sounds. AI sounds to me like the promises that were made to me about IoT. Everyone, every company in the world wanted to be the hub of your home. And they all tried Microsoft, Honeywell, PlayStation, Sony. Every Amazon Apple. Amazon, Apple all wanted to be the hub of your home.

And then like, and then what happened is like some of them were made the hub. And they were like, what the fuck are we getting from this? What information are we gleaning? Nothing. Nothing, nothing. And they tried it in the thermostat. They tried it at like in the home speaker systems. You know, doorbell.

Yeah. In the doorbell. They tried everything. Like we'll make the doorbell the hub of the home. We'll make every, you know, whatever it is. Nothing worked. And what people ended up doing is like kind of like mish mashing ecosystems together. The true IoT people have really discovered that they maybe want their speaker system on IoT, if you will.

They maybe want like some plugs. on iot they like their garage door on iot and then every other thing in their home they want offline you know for the most part maybe a few extra things right but the iot world was one in which everyone was attached every your shoes were on the internet and i was told that was going to be a great world but like then when i heard that i was like that's stupid like that's again another world created by like an autistic retard sitting in his room going it's better this way you know, and that's not how the world is. I don't opt to live in that world.

You know, I don't want, I don't want to replace the batteries and my light switch every four years, because that's fucking gay. But, like, I think the world that you're painting there is very sort of utopian. Like, it sounds great if you don't have to. Which world? I didn't say anything utopian.

I was talking about, like, the world remaining a lot like it is. But it's like you're saying, everyone will have more time to go outside, touchcraft. think, walk, whatever. Like, that's great. But what do they do for their jobs? Because, like, if it does replace a big portion of sort of white collar work, which I think it has the potential room.

In Australia, you guys can go back to America. We got other sorts. That's getting cut. I know. That's getting cut. There's always one part of you that gets cut. So in, in a... The reality is that when people have more time.

Daddy, you can't handle the jokes. I can, but I'm not being associated with the jokes. I feel like I wouldn't be allowed to go to Australia if I tried. I don't think you're allowed already. So, I mean, the thing is, like, people have more time. You might get, yeah. That's getting cut, too. Which one?

Both. Everything's getting cut. No more. I was, I think that when people have a lot of time, like, you have the ability to do more things and think about more things. I think people underestimate the need for men to create in particular. Like, I'm often called a sexist, but I just believe men and women are really different people.

And men... What's that? I think they're different. Yeah. I'm not saying that like women... It's not one's better, ones worse, but they're different. Being a man is more awesome. You know, external pudenda is awesome.

It's just like, less... showering, you know? So like, you know, the thing is like, is that men, men have a drive that forces them to be, to produce. That drive is hot chicks. And I think like, for whatever reason, it seems like a lot of that motivation has been reduced over the last couple, last few years. And I don't know what the reason is.

but like a lot of men have abandoned attempting to like impress hot chicks anymore but i do think that there's a world in which a lot of that motivation comes back because it's biological and i think if there's more time to be outside and do things men are going to create more things and they might the good ones are going to use AI to do it right like um i talk regularly about like my own little projects i have lots of little projects that i do just for fun for myself but i enjoy scaling things um i make a wood finish in my garage i know exactly how long it takes me to make it i know how many i can make with like a you know whatever size whatever i make right and uh so i'll make it in my garage with my recipe i know that it takes me 30 minutes to make x number of you know jars

And I sell it for X amount. This much profit is how much I get. I don't do anything like that unless I'm making $500 an hour. But I sell eight a month, you know, for a profit of, you know, $13 a thing, right? But all of my hours combined are $500 an hour. And if I had 15 little jobs like that, then I would be, you know, making $500, an hour from 15 jobs maybe the future is everyone's got 45 jobs maybe they're growing tomatoes and selling them at trader joes i don't know uh but if everyone's got time then we can think of things

to do i'm not worried about that like that's everyone like what are we doing everyone's out of a job we we know what to do when everyone's out of a job go make a job but see that's not the part that necessarily worries me it's the part that is like the step between here and there because if like You said you don't think this is going to happen fast. I think it is going to happen fast. If it does, and we have, you know, 5% of the country unemployed, then 5% of the country and now no longer servicing debt. What does that do to the economy?

Like, I think if people can't afford their mortgage, then, like, do we go into a 2008-style financial crisis? Like, do we have UBI? What happens there? All these things are like punctuations. Like, you have a punctuated three to five-year period. They're not. Like, they're three to five years.

Like, we have the Great Recession. Like, were you jobless during the Great Recession? I was, like, 17. Okay. Were your parents jobless? I did have a job, but. You had a job during the Great Recession. It's 17.

Your parents? I was watching. What about your parents? My dad had his own business, kept the business, definitely did worse during it. Yeah. But you had a job. Mm-hmm. Do you know, like, a lot of other people that were, like, jobless or most of the people that you knew?

I know people that lost homes or had to at least downside. homes. Okay. They had a downsize. Not that tragic, to be honest. I mean, see, I, the tricky thing here is, like, I was, like, lucky. I was, I was amongst, like, I went to private school. I had, like, most people are, though. Most people aren't, I don't know. Is that true? Like, by definition, can that be true? Yes, it's true. Most people are, most people are in, like, a privilege of, like, at least of the people that, you know, in these societies that are producing and doing things. Yeah. Yeah, the eaters, uh, the eaters, the eaters might lose their jobs, but like a lot of people are producers and and they will find work.

I'm not too worried about it. Like I remember reading in an article by, I think it was E.B. White talking about how he lived through the Great Depression is the editor of the New Yorker at the time and saying that like, he barely noticed it was happening, which, you know, you read the history of it. Like, how could you not notice this was happening? And the reality is that like I look back at the 2008 financial crisis. I graduated into it, got a job, lived in New York, like got a crappy place like every kid who gets a job in New York out of college does, lived on top of someone's kitchen and like a four by five by eight foot like hollow and a futon bed. that they pushed up there for me and they needed some help. So I rented it for $550 a month, which I didn't have. So this is like, you know, the story of every major depression is that like there's a bunch of people who can't get work or can't find jobs or lose their jobs.

And it sucks for like a portion of people. But it's not that, it's not that many. But the tricky thing there is like what happened, well, we know what happened to the wealth divide since then and it's only got worse. And you're lucky in that situation because I guess about that time is when you found Bitcoin, not long after at least. And so, like, you have had a very unusual experience post-financial crisis, whereas most people have comparatively got poorer compared to the people, like... I don't think that's true. I just don't think that's true.

Like, I think that, like, in the last couple of years with a great inflation, that's true. But we had, like, 10 years of really low inflation before that, which, you know, made people comparatively rich. Look at the S&P 500. for the last 10 years. But these are all the asset owners. You ever done the math? Like put money into like TQQQ, Q, Q, 5. $10,000 in 2010.

How much money you have today? I don't know a lot. How much? 10,000 in 2010. 15 years. 500,000. I think it's like, I think it's like $2 million. Yeah, that's interesting.

It's really triple levered QQQQs or something. But again, this is always focusing on the people that like can buy assets. It's $5,000. Yeah, there's a lot of people in America that don't have $5,000 spent. There's people that are bad at, managing money. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not like, I'm not like, I don't find it that interesting to like discuss like the, uh, discuss people that like can't manage their money because like, yeah, those people are going to be like maybe out of jobs. But they, they don't have that important jobs. And they're like not managing themselves. But even if you don't think they have important jobs, like it does matter to society. Yeah. Well, it depends. It depends on what they're doing. Like, not even that the job necessarily matters to society. Someone else is going to come along. Someone else is going to make a job that they can do.

But if it's a menial job, like, they can. But it's not even that the job necessarily matters to society. It's the fact that, like, the wealth divide matters to society. I think there are less menial job takers than you think. That's what I'm trying to say is like there are people that are taking menial jobs. How do I navigate this? Like, I've already said things that are so offensive, I feel like. It's you.

We all know this. Yeah. there are people that have menial jobs that will keep them and who can manage themselves, right? Like there's people who work at McDonald's in a menial way and like retire with millions of dollars because they managed their life. I guess what I'm saying is like in a situation where there's turmoil like this or you think there's going to be turmoil from from job loss. The people that don't manage their lives now are going to have a lot of trouble navigating that. but they would have trouble navigating every single crisis. And I'm not that worried about them because I think there are more people in the world

that are managing themselves enough that we're not going to see like 90% homeless rates across the United States because nobody has a job. You're going to end up with people who are like, I got to feed my family. I'm going to sell peanuts door to door, you know, and they'll do it. It might be back to like the Hoover salesman coming to your door to. sell vacuums. I don't know. But I do know that like people figure things out. And I don't think that it's going to be as fast as you think or as fast as anybody seems to think, despite the fact that AI is advancing really quick. We'll see. I don't think that it's going to be like jobs lost

as fast as everybody thinks. And the reason is is because I think people realize, particularly the very wealthy that you can't transition so quickly as to have your own house get burned down by the plebeians who are coming and like is you know burning the beast's gates right they know that they have to transition probably over the course of a generation and they will do their best to do it and uh and a lot of the people that like i think would be out of jobs here are hitting a retirement age like we're like seeing sort of a boomer exodus from the workforce. And like the new group of people that are coming up there, a lot of them started working younger. They started programming when they were in like eighth grade. You know, maybe they weren't saving money. But they had well-paying jobs for many years. And there's a lot of things that might change. But like a lot of them are also very aware of the changes that are coming. Like when a journalist, when you have the entirety of the journalist class lose their jobs, you don't have riots in the streets. That's just like those are the people that don't write. it. Yeah.

That's true. When you have computer programmers all losing their job, they're like, good, I don't have to talk to anyone anymore. You know? So I do think you said something interesting there, which is that, like, I think I agree that maybe the people most at risk here are the older working workforce because they're not going to be the ones that necessarily adapt to AI as quickly, like sweeping statement, but I think generally true.

And I think the younger kids, like I've got a kid similar age to you to your kid, not too, you. I think they're going to be all right. You're really all. I think they're going to be all right because there's going to be a lot of time to process what happens in the next 10, 50 years. Yeah, they're going to get to see like the world is going to be like whatever world develops, it's going to be massively different 20 years from now than it is today. But like look at what people predicted 20 years ago. They told us today 20 years from then that universities would be dead. Yeah. They told us that oil was going to be gone. I mean, the, the Amazon rainforest, is going to be completely burned down.

Like, none of this happened. Yeah. The same number of people apply to Harvard every year. And, and I mean, could the university's be gone with AI, though? Your guess is as good as mine, but I'll bet you the, I'll bet you the chances are about the same. Like, you can predict also, like, institutions have staying power. And they have staying power for a lot of reasons, reputation being one of them. Like don't fall into the trap of the like autistic bedroom dweller like telling you his dream for the world and how he's about to achieve it.

It's such a mistake because the world, the perspective on the world you get is so dismal. And like people start telling you things like you like you never ever going to have to fly in an airplane again. Like, do you want that world? If I could teleport. Fuck yeah. You don't know. not the telephone. Like, do you want the world where you never get to go to South Dakota and see the badlands

with your own two goddamn eyes? Absolutely. Do you want the world where you don't go to the Grand Canyon and look down at it? Like you did, you're just like, wow, what a beautiful VR rendering of the Grand Canyon. It's just like the real thing. Like, what a crappy world. And there's just some autistic dream of how you and I will live. And he's so excited about it.

And I'm telling you, I don't know. elect to live in that world. Me neither. I know you don't. No one does. So why is that the world that like when we talk about things we talk about AI. We're like and then it's gonna airplanes will crash out of the sky. It's be so cool. Like it's it's not the world that you will elect to live in. Maybe a world in which like you have more free time is when you elect to live in. But a world where no humans have jobs. Nobody's doing any work. No one has any idea what to do. Like you're talking about zombies. Like we're Oh, that's the world that AI is going to bring. Oh, great. I elect to live in that. You don't

have to live in that world. You can elect not to. And no one elects to live in that world. So that is not what AI will do. It's a really simple rubric. Like, AI is going to give us, hopefully, a world that all of us are more, more desirous of. And if we take AI and it has consequences that we do not like in 20 years, we will roll them back. Just like we're doing now with immigration or with like, um, you know, some of the outsourcing or whatever it is, we're rolling things back because they have consequences. And as we, as we see the consequences, we take back the world for ourselves. And we live in a world that we elect to enjoy because that's, we're the ones for whom it's created. This world is not created for AI robots to enjoy. It's created for, it's created for,

for you and me. And if the world is not one that you elect to live in and it's not one that I elect to live in, then what's the point? Yeah. I mean, I agree with that. The thing that does suck, though, is that narratives matter, at least in the short term. And I think the generation that are in a really tricky spot right now, the people leaving college now, the like, I don't know, say 16 to 25 year olds, if they're trying to go into the workforce and all these companies are trying to prepare for this AI world that you're saying may never come, but they're at least preparing for that like the jobs that run off to them are completely different yeah go make a go make a company it's never been a better time everyone in your cohort is going to be out of a job because they're

all they're all lamenting the coming of AI go i i don't know i mean i like when bitcoin's down i start companies um i just started a trash cleaning business a trash bin cleaning business like all the rage i didn't know this we had a maggots after a party last year and uh And I wanted to get my trash can clean because it was disgusting and I don't want to do it myself because that's gross. So I looked online and I found out that there were like people that did this. And I was like, I was like, I wonder if this is like a business. And sure enough, there's a few people doing it in a small one. I was like, you know what?

I'm going to, I'm going to try one of these businesses. So I bought a truck and, and we've been selling trash bin cleaning services locally in South Florida. That's awesome. Yeah. But like, what's AI going to do? I mean, you get it to clean your bin. You're going to get AI to clean your bin? Maybe.

If I have a robot, maybe. Maybe. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. I don't know. But like, you know, my truck is going to do it better because I have, you know, high pressure water coming out at like 200 degrees, you know. Like, he's going to clean it with a hose.

Some bleach. There's just like, it's just very, there's tons of jobs out. there that you can go make for yourself you can make them you don't need a truck you could do it with a hose like i'm i'm only talking about cleaning bins because it's the one that i did but like my wife wanted to start a nursery so i went and i bought a bunch of plants and i put them in our front yard and said here you go and then i advertise on facebook marketplace and now she has a nursery like it's going to be a funny mind mindset shift though because i don't think most people are entrepreneurial because they think they think they're just going to get to go to New York and work in finance.

Most people think that. As an example. Your view of the world is like, you're telling me like my view of the world, like, everybody's like, nobody's getting jobs. I mean, I think the vast majority of people going into the working world think they're going to get like a corporate job or be a mechanical or whatever. I think you're right. But well, there's nothing and there's nothing wrong with that stuff, but I'm saying like if you're, if the world you're entering is one in which like AI is taking

over, that's the narrative, that's a short term narrative and the result of the short term, short-term narrative is that there are no jobs available. If you're a man, and I'm not saying women can't do it, but if you're a man and you want a hot chick, you need to just go make a job. It's not hard. Go make a job. And you're like, whoa, what are I'm going to do? I don't know. Buy shoes cheap. Go door to door until you find someone to buy the shoes. I don't care. Like sell peanuts, sell Diet Coke at like a concession stand. I don't care. But like go work.

No one your cohort is working. So go work. Go find work. Work is good. Go find work. I mean, a world of more entrepreneurs is a good world. Become an entrepreneur. Go find people with coconut trees in the backyard if you're in Florida.

Pick them and then set up a stand at the side of the road and sell them. Like it's, it is, there are so many. opportunities that are not going to be taken by AI no matter what, at least not in the short term. And if they are in the long term, the world may suck because we want people to do things. Like, it's the commies and the libertarians who are the same thing. Orboros is the tale is the libertarian and the communist is the mouth, right? They're the same goddamn thing. They're both of them have the same dream.

You're going to sit. I know that. You're going to sit there on the side of. of the stream at the end of the day in their perfect world and you're going to be fishing, which is what you definitely want to be doing as a human. You want to just be fishing all day. That's fun. And that's their dream world. And like that's cute. And I think that like some of this stuff fulfills that. It's like everyone's going to be out of a job and then we're going to all be on UBI. And it's both mine and my communist friend's dream as a libertarian. And that's like

exactly what the world that they want is everyone on UBI, like Milton Friedman said. And it just doesn't, it's a terrible world. Yep. It's a really dismal world. I totally agree with that, but I think we might have go through a period of UBI. Yeah, they're going to try it and it's going to fail because all, all things where human incentives are not aligned with money fail. So if we do UBI and you give people money to lounge around and do nothing, the program will fail. at producing the consequences that you'd like.

Do you think that's a situation where everyone just, or not everyone, a large amount of people just end up drinking themselves to death, doing drugs, like loss of meaning? Could be. I don't see why not. Like, in a world where, like, if you construct, if you construct the zombie apocalypse is the world that you live in and you elect to live in that world, you're going to have a lot people eating brains, you know, it's just not, you can't survive as a, as humanity. if we're electing to live in worlds that we don't want to live in.

You've made me feel better about AI. Good. I guess. I don't feel anything about AI. Do you feel anything? I've been trying to for years. It's why I cut myself. About getting cut.

Why? That's a good joke. I mean, I mean, I don't really feel much toward AI. I feel immense love toward my daughter. I feel immense love toward my wife. I feel love of a different sort towards my friends toward you. I feel great about the place I live and I feel wonderful when I'm outside fixing things with my hands or I'm in my garage turning a piece of wood, right like the idea that that AI is going to come and make me feel worse in that world is nuts and the idea that it's going to take my job is nuts because I will just create a new job in

that world where AI isn't you know is either part of it or is not one sec hey works for me all right but schedule training on cleaning dumpsters that he comes go. See, I think narratives are really important, though. And I think one of the interesting things is that sci-fi for the last 20 years or however long have been that AI is this terrible thing. It's going to kill us all. It's going to take over the world. And hearing someone say that it can be actually kind of restorative is really interesting. Yeah, I think that that's like, but I do also have this like other belief that either you believe that AI is human or like conscience, or you can believe in God. And I think that these are diametrically opposed beliefs. I don't think you can

believe them both. Why not? Because in my world, God creates life. It is magical. How it happens, there's insolment and all sorts of amazing things that occur. And consciousness is a gift from the creator in that sense. So then we as humans, fiddle faddle with our machines, and we create this thing that feels very alive, but isn't. And it feels so alive that many people believe it to be alive. And but we can't really do that. So like in my world, it is impossible for AI to be alive. It can't be alive.

but humans can be and i think i think in a world where you believe that ai is alive it's very difficult to believe in a all-powerful creator because you know apparently we can just create life so makes sense you know why why what's the point of god see i'm not really just at all but um god couldn't have created the aIs why not I mean, God can do anything. But I say if you're not religious, you will believe that AI is real. It's alive. I see, I don't at the moment.

Not yet. But you will. Again, it's very hard to say what I'll believe in the future. I can't see it, but potentially. I think I'm in a place right now where I think that everyone is going to fall into the two camps. And there will be one side you'll have to take. And I just think it's inevitable because. like if the better AI gets the more real it seems yeah but then it's like it gets it that gets to

the point where you think that AI has to have some kind of like human rights treatment and they're equal to humans which it's common you think you wait until the debate start maybe 30 years down the road but yeah hmm yeah I I unless I start believing in God I think I'm going to fade that narrative because I can't see that you know yeah Just wait. Should we talk about Bitcoin? We've done like an hour on AI there. Yeah, let's do it.

You're wearing your ocean shirt. Are you a Bip 110 guy? Am I a what? A Bip 110 guy. I don't know what that means. Yes, you do. No, I don't. You're such a liar.

Let me tell you something. I think that right now in Bitcoin, there's like factions developing and political parties of a sort developing. And everybody wants you to, take aside and I just couldn't care less. I'm an ocean investor because I think ocean is a good money making opportunity possibly. I think it's also very good for Bitcoin. I also think it's very good for Bitcoin to have a mining pool like ocean. I'm not always a fan of ideology entering into your business, but like, you know, it's their business and they get to do what they want.

with it. And it's not like you invest with Luke DeS Jr. and don't know that he's got an ideology. Right. Like so I think that there's like some some sort of like political, uh, thing going on here in Bitcoin right now. There's factions developing. And I think that like it'll probably end up making Bitcoin better in a weird way. And everyone is going to be surprised by how. Yeah. Because it gets more like we don't need this is money for enemies. We don't need to agree on everything. There's this. Yeah. There's no point. Like I'm glad there's factions. Like, Who cares? Like, let core fight for their like legitimacy always. Core is this amorphous group of programmers that come together and decide on how the Bitcoin

protocol looks. And they could just, it could be just as it could be that core, you know, loses that legitimate like power and that's some other, you know, implementation takes over. It's just like, I think that I think that everyone should always be on their toes. in a world like this. Everyone should know that if you put some kind of like bad code into the blockchain, if you put any, any, anything, you'll be found. And it'll be. And apparently the accusations will just go nuts.

Like you will be accused of looking at child porn and, you know, jerking it to pictures of, you know, your mom. Which, to be fair, like that whole narrative has been very disappointing. But, um, it, it is what it is. I get what's going on. It's all, it's rhetoric. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's like the worst people at rhetoric playing games of rhetoric.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like they're like, it's like they didn't take the rhetoric class in college. And so they're sitting there like, well, wow, uh, you look at child porn and you're like, wait, wait, wait, like, uh, and they're like, no, I don't. Oh, yeah. That's something like a child porn guy would say.

You know, like, okay. Like that's, you know, so it's like two guys. two sides of a coin, neither side. Like, Core was not prepared for taking political positions because there are a bunch of autistic programmers. And like the other side didn't tell them because there are a bunch of autistic programmers that they were going to start like doing rhetoric. And so it's autistic rhetoric versus like unprepared autists. And it's really funny to me to watch. I'm not disappointed.

I sit back and watch the game. You got to do more of that like being in the state. stadium announcing the game kind of thing. Like, oh, you're accused her watching child porn. Let's see what he's doing. You know what she's doing. And she just kind of like sits there and doesn't know what to do. It's, you know, it's fine.

Like it is what it is. I mean, who does know what to do when you get accuses that? And I do think it's disappointing. You say no. And then you just move on. Like you say, then you go, well, that's what they'd say. Yeah. Whatever.

I think I think that if you're a regular consumer of that content, you'll get caught in like, not too long at time, you know, like they'll show up your house and they'll rage you and everybody will know because it just, it is what it is. Like, it just seems, it seems like it's difficult to not end up stepping on a lot of giant landmines when you're like searching for that stuff. I would think it's rife with FBI and CIA or whoever the hell the like enforcement agencies are. Yeah, but so are you a, are you a bitponten guy though? Am I a what? Do you support bitponten? Come on. You never pull punches. I don't care.

I actually have not looked strongly into BIP 110. The idea that like we need to control the blockchain I've always thought was, not control the blockchain, but control like what is put in it. I think that like the blockchain has a very limited amount of space. That space has a price. Maybe we've made a mistake with like the Segwit discount and stuff like that. I don't know. I think that'll let people debate.

that and figure that out. But like as to whether, as to whether we right now need to regulate it, like, I don't know because I think, I think that like what needs to happen is like this is the whole Bitcoin that has not done anything yet. Bitcoin needs to be used primarily for its function of transferring value from place to place right now, such that that is the number one reason that someone wants to use the blockchain. And until then, every, we will have a million attack vectors, things people want to put in there, whether it's words or not. And so I'm not, like, I'm not that concerned about it. I never have been. I think that there's a lot of people that are concerned about it. Um, there has definitely been

some like bloat in the blockchain, which I don't, you know, it's, it's bigger right now than maybe it would otherwise have been. But I'm not, I'm just not that worried about it yet. It's, it's, we're still early in what they don't Bitcoin's history. I'll let them debate it. And then if they implement it, they implement it. And if they don't, they don't. Like, it's not, to me, this is never, this is more about like, the. sort of emergence of like factions than it is about whether a BIP is going to end up getting like you know operationalized or not very fent city it's not fencing it's like do you care about every BIP no me neither there's someone that cares about every BIP you know and there's some people that like

just don't know what's going on I tend to know what the Bips are and then you know some of them I'm like okay that would be good that would be bad you know there's some ideas that I think are good and some ideas that I think are bad. And like they just, they get hammered out in debate. And then I have, to be honest, no,

apart from like maybe starting a movement in the, in Bitcoin, I'm not going to affect whether that BIP gets implemented or not, unless I have a really strong opinion and like start, I don't know, lobbying the developers. I'll call out them back and like let them know. But like I just like the BIPs are,

most of us don't really know day to day what the Bips are. You just any, Bitcoin Zen watching. That's always been the case with me. I'm always watching. Like, fence sitting, I've never taken strong stances on what Bitcoin should do other than that like it needs to, it did and probably needs to remain serving the underserved, which is exactly your statement.

It needs to remain free and open, right? Freedom money. So that's exactly what I think. As long as it remains freedom money, like you do whatever you want. The rest is just noise. Yeah. like it's you know it's an asset in your computer and then they're trying to put controls on it whatever those controls are some are going to be regulated you know with uh code some with laws yeah i mean as

much as i called you a fence sitter but i think more people probably need to have that opinion i i can't imagine caring so much about everything like just people spend so much time carrying whatever like i i make jokes be going on censored back of the day was all fart jokes like the whole thing. Fart jokes and then technical discussion. Fart jokes and technical discussion. Fart jokes and that was the show. Like if you asked me to summarize it, that would be, it was like I was mostly a podcast about fart jokes and like Bitcoin technical discussions. And I don't think you can have the perspective that like everything, everything is important and I must care about it. If you're going to tell a lot of fart jokes. And like that was the thing is like with BU, we just we just kind of watched.

We just let it happen. We thought things were hilarious. We thought most. Most of what we thought was funny was how seriously people took themselves. Like we and now everyone does. Everyone takes themselves so seriously in this space. Like do you guys, do you guys realize where we came from? Like this is like Bitcoin magazine was run by a guy who like put on like those fake horse contests of faith, you know, horse masks and like all over himself and put posts these things online all the time embarrassingly. Like. Ethereum, Bitcoin's competitor is run by a weird emaciated Ethiopian child who like needs to eat a burger.

And like I don't know. Like none of this, it's all funny. Nothing here is serious. And yet like there's an EF or ETF about it. Hilarious. I don't know. That surprises me. It's as surprising as an ETF about Pokemon cards.

or beanie babies or beanie babies it's hilarious and like people take themselves so seriously about it and it is important i really do think it is important but i think that it is like it is contingent on everyone to remember where we were like when the suits got here that's when things got retarded like we had suits come in for a while and then try to sell blockchain to everybody every time the suits come in it gets dumb because they don't know what they're looking at so i don't know like everyone's taking themselves so seriously, it gets real bad when you get serious folk in here. I mean, I kind of love that. That's a, that makes me bullish.

Yeah. Yeah. No, this is a toy and we're playing in a sandbox. And then like, maybe at some point someone goes like, oh, that toy looks really amazing. I'm going to turn that into a big toy for adults. I don't know. I think that's what the ETF is in some ways. Like they're like, it's a big toy for adults.

Oh, like, well, that's cool. I'm going to turn that into a big toy for adults. So they put it in it, they wrapped it in an ETF. And they're like, now it's a big toy for adults. And like, the adults are like, oh, wow, look at this thing. It's kind of cool. And so like, you know, I think that's kind of what's going on here is like, we've been playing in a sandbox. And then the suits showed up multiple times in Bitcoin's history.

And they did just the dumbest things. And they were always funny. And then we'd watch suits fall for scams from other suits. And then we'd watch the suits that just got here, go on CNBC and go like, I've been here for a very long time since May. And you're like, whoa. So they are remember, I've told the story before, but like, I remember the first Bitcoin conference, there was a VC who got up on stage. And he was on with like a panel of like four people.

It was like Mo Levin's first conference. And he's this guy, this VC is talking. And he's like, I, I've been in Bitcoin quite a while. I've been in since. I think he said like $200 or something like that. And this is like January, I think. I remember turning to Chris and going, that was May. He's been in a while.

He's been in since May. Like, what is he talking about? Like, the suits have no idea what they're doing. And I love it. I think that that's great. I think, like, it's really difficult for me to take anything we do here seriously because it's so the, the, the people that got the richest are the funniest most unlikely people to have gotten there.

Like, have you, have you been watching? Watching Bruce Fenton? I really like Bruce. Bruce Fenton took himself so seriously for years. Yeah. He was, you know, Mr. Bruce Fenton, I'm so serious. I'm big money guy.

He would make fun of me, but like, you're just an alarm salesman. Or you know, whatever. Now people are like, you're just a trash guy. You know, like, oh, yeah, Bruce, okay. Bruce goes now and like does Bitcoin uncensored, like, bits in front of his, like, city council ship because he's bored.

And so he puts on, like, a wig and talks like a Tory. And, like, it does these things. And I was like, okay. There we go. Like, don't take yourself so seriously. Because on the other side of this, as you're trying to build your wealth,

as you're trying to build the world you want to live in, on the other side of this, when you retire, you'll realize that you took yourself, taking yourself seriously was nothing but larping. And then on the other side of this, all you want to do is go and, like, talk to your city council like an Englishman.

Put on a ridiculous, like, Tori fucking wig, you know? He's doing that like, what's it called? Is it gumbo style? What's the word on?

Gonzo-style journalism. Yeah, that's... Gumbo. Gondo, yeah, Gumby-style journalism. That was what we... Again, BU, we always thought of ourselves as like Gonzo journalists in a sense, like where you become the story as well.

And that is, you know, what BU was. It was Gonzo journalism. But I just think it's funny that, like, I see people who spent ears trying to, like, take themselves very seriously, getting off the serious train. And, like, being... I'm rich. I arrived, right?

And then... And then they're like, oh, I guess here at this station, I don't have to be serious anymore. And they put down, they put down the pretense. And they suddenly become like hilarious, funny people that are no longer the professional that they like pretended to be for 10 years. Yeah. So I don't know. Like, I just, I think it's, I think it's funny in Bitcoin. How seriously people take it.

And I just think that everyone's got to remember that like at the end of this, we're all going to take our pants off and probably find ourselves in some kind of orgy. What else is the man? We've talked about a lot there. I don't know. Do you have a really unpopular Bitcoin opinion? These days? I feel like my AI opinions are the unpopular ones these days. I like that opinion.

I don't know if it's true. No, it's like the only really positive outcome from AI that I've heard. I mean, the Bitcoin opinions are, I feel like they're all said and done. like any like specific things about bitcoin like bitcoin's kind of doing its thing right now it's kind of like we're in a bear market uh this is a good like being at 70k in a bare market feels it's weird isn't it it's like oh bummer it's it's real weird like i don't know like bitcoin is bitcoin it always has been like my my whole thesis about bitcoin like i feel like much of it is one and i just kind of like sit back and like bitcoin

into its thing. It's not there's I don't the metaverse is dead. It never was. All of these shit coins, like I said, they still exist, but like I don't think they will forever. Real world assets is the new metaverse. Real world assets is the new metaverse, which is was obvious because, you know, it doesn't make any sense on real world assets. Like I think I don't like the touch grass meme. But I think that like I find. that having a sense of the world you're in is the only way that you can kind of understand what's coming. Particularly when things look difficult, like everyone thinks they're going to lose their jobs. And I kind of like work it out in my head.

I'm like, okay, so like someone in the company is going to have to go in and really learn AI. And that's someone like in an entrepreneurial sense is going to have to be the person with the incentive to get rid of the world. workers like you're not going to get the workers themselves to work themselves out of a job so like the entrepreneurs themselves are going to have to do it so maybe there will be businesses that go they come in and do it they're going to they're going to charge you $50,000 to teach you the AI that will help you get rid of workers and then you as the entrepreneur are going to have to like actually hold become a manager of the AIs and if you suck at managing people you're going to suck at managing AIs. And so your whole company like now is like on your back. Whereas before you had like an

operations manager and like three or four levels of people that actually knew what was going on. And like just the world that that's just not how it's going to go. It just like it's not going to be that fast. The only people that are going to be able to do this are the people that are like the ones with the incentives to get rid of the jobs. And there aren't that many people. people like that. I love it, man. I really hope it takes long than we think. It will. Don't worry. This time next. O'clock. Clothes will be shredded. I have no pants. We're doing in the metaverse. Couldn't afford to drive down the gases $2 a gallon. I just can't afford that anymore. My UBA eye check didn't cover it.

Like, I don't know. Like, it just seems, it just seems to me to be implausible that that all of a sudden we're going to have a whole bunch of competent people show up. And like all of these companies like from the other side that the, you know, the gelman amnesia effect, you know what this is? No. It's the idea that you, in an industry you're competent in if you look at a newspaper and you read about it. So like you go, you read the reporting on Bitcoin on the New York Times. And you're like, you're reading it. You're like, that's not how Bitcoin works. Oh, yeah. What the hell is that? That's not what the debate. What are they? Oh, my God. This whole article. like 93% of this article is wrong that's weird then the next page you're like AI going to take all the jobs

like whoa no right you just you just read what someone in your industry is going is is thinking like and it was 90% wrong you flip the page and you forget that like that just happened and that's that's kind of how i feel like with with AI like you get a couple of people are like i worked in the industry and everything is going to change and no one's going to have it these people aren't not making companies they're still making companies yeah explain that one to me they're still hiring programmers to do the jobs that programmers need to do they're still hiring janitors they're still hiring operations like managers yep they're still hiring drivers and still sending their kids to school the janitors and the bin cleaners will be the last ones to go you've diversified well that's my

But like, you know what I mean? Like these Silicon Valley guys who are telling you that the world's about to come to an end. Like, why is, why is there the rate of starting companies not slowing down? Don't believe the hype. It's not that it's not that. It's not like, you know, like if Barack Obama tells you the world's going to be underwater in three years and then buys a home on Martha's Vineyard or whatever, like right next to the ocean, maybe there's something he's saying that he doesn't actually truly believe in. heart of hearts. Yeah, it wasn't Miami meant to be gone by now. Miami's been gone for the last 15 years. It's been underwater. Like, this is the thing.

That's why I picked the highest apartment I could. Oh, good. It's way, yeah, it is beautiful. Just in case it's this time. It is, it is incredible. The amount of times the experts are wrong, particularly in their timelines and the amount of credibility we give them every single time they propose a new timeline. Yep. Like Elon Musk has never been right about a timeline. And then like he comes and he's like, oh, well, you know, the jobs will be done in like a year and a half and blah, blah, blah. And like, no one's going to be in work. And we're going to be at Mars in two years.

And like, you're like, okay, can I, can I get that full self driving on my car that was promised me eight years ago or whatever? Yeah, it wasn't the road cement to be out like six years ago. The roadster. That's right. He's like next month it will do. Yeah. For like six, seven, eight years.

So, you know, that's true Elon Musk. But like, you have scientists who for the last 30, 40 years have been predicting the demise of like every major city along the coast. We're still here. Yeah. We have, you know, experts in programming that have been telling us like the future of the world looks like, you know, this with like this new technology, IOT. Maybe it's not true. Everyone's annoyed that their fridge connects to the internet now. Yeah. And nobody wants to. I've never understood why you'd want you fridge preemptions that. 10 years ago, everyone wanted their fridge to connect to the internet because because. Yeah. And in an, I think in 10 years, AI, many of the promises of AI will look similar.

I do love the idea, though, this could be your interface of the internet and you don't actually have to be terminally online. That sounds amazing to me. Wouldn't be great? Yep. Yeah, I just, I don't know exactly how that looks. But to me that, like, if you're going to set up things like agents, and I, and like, this is the thing. AI has gone from, like, absolutely horrendously. bad to like, wow, that's pretty good. But you got a preview what it was doing a year ago. It's like, oh, it writes things, cool. Oh, it makes images cool. But now it's like, you can literally take a photo, like two

photographs and be like, take this image and take the thing from here, you know, transform it, combine it into this image and put them here. And then voila, you have like a near perfect facsimile of that. So that's cool. And I think it'll probably get a little better.

On the agent's side, it's brand new. Like people have just started running like cloud bots and stuff like that. So that absolute, absolutely terrible experience. I've got one. It works amazing for a while. Now it just keeps breaking. Just absolutely terrible experience. But in a year, maybe two years, might be that these agents are incredible.

I think that's out of the box. That's the likely outcome. So that's the likely outcome. What that means is that your agent is going to do things for you that you don't want to do. They're going to grocery shop for you with your help. Right. They may message you and say, hey, are you out of bananas? You can say, actually, yes, I am.

Like, that's what I thought, because it's about that time. And it'll say, hey, are you out of, you know, dishwashing detergent? Yeah, actually I am or no. And so it'll buy these things for you. And it'll like make your general life pretty easy. And then you can focus if you want to buy things that like make your life fun. Now you're going to shop for things that make your life fun. But you might even ask you ask your Aad to do that.

But for the most part, like if you can allow the AI to do all that stuff, you just get a bunch of time back. You just unlock productivity. It doesn't have to be productive. It depends on what you mean about productivity. Like time. Potential for it. But yeah, time. You're allowed to not do anything with your time.

It doesn't always feel like it. Especially with a kid. But yeah. But that's the thing is like more you have a kid. So more time with your kid. Yeah. Is wonderful, right? It's amazing.

You know, you'd hope that you could have more of that. Absolutely. And I wouldn't call that productive time. Like not in any way, shape, or form. It's absolutely, like, useless, like, relationship building. I don't think that's useless. Totally useless. No, it's just relationship building.

It's not like you're not making money, right? Like, you're earning dollars for that. But you're probably building a bit of future. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're making the world. You're electing to live in the world that you want to live in.

Yeah. I love it. Jen Seth. I genuinely love talk to you. You're one of my favorite people to have on the show. Oh. Thank you. So sorry. Yeah, everyone else. That's how about that. Very, very, like, low standards. No, it's been awesome. They normally say, where do you want people to go? But you don't want people to go anywhere. Unless you got a dirty trash can around. If you're in South Florida, you want your dirty trash can clean. Go to wash a can.com. Thank you, man. I will see you soon. All right.